Depth Isn’t a Number. It’s a Choice

In this episode, Don reflects on the difference between reaching people and truly knowing them, and why depth is not measured by numbers, but by the relationships we are willing to choose and sustain.

He is joined by his longtime friend Kevin Moran, Director of Operations and Administration at Joseph’s House of Camden, whose life and work in Camden, New Jersey have been shaped by service, faith in action, and showing up for people living on the margins.

Together, they explore what it means to put “a life on a life,” how relationships become the doorway into meaningful service, and why the most important question in moments of crisis is often not “What intervention do we need?” but “Who has the relationship?”

This conversation is about leadership, presence, friendship, and the quiet courage it takes to keep choosing depth when distance would be easier.

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you: what if the real measure of our work is not how many people we reach, but how deeply we are willing to know them? What if the numbers we count can sometimes hide the relationships we have failed to build? And what if depth is not something that happens by accident, but something we choose again and again in our organizations, in our friendships, and in our families. Those questions bring us to this week's meditation and into a reflection on what it means to stop confusing numbers with impact, breach with relationship, and activity with connection. Exploring tensions like these is at the heart of this podcast. Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a personal reflection, and then a conversation with a guest whose lived experience helps bring this theme to life, all in the service of the inner formation leadership asks of us. And today I get to have that conversation with Kevin Moran. I first met Kevin in the early 2000s when he was working at the Romero Center in Camden, New Jersey. At the time, I was bringing students from Maine to Camden to help them better understand urban poverty, its causes, and the daily realities faced by people living in communities shaped by disinvestment, failing schools, lack of affordable housing, limited employment opportunities, homelessness, hunger, violence, and environmental justice. Camden was not an easy place to encounter. It was heartbreaking, humbling, and impossible to walk away from it unchanged. But what moved me most was not the city itself. It was the dedication of the people who kept showing up there. People like Kevin and his mentor, Larry DePaul. Kevin had a way of turning faith into action, not in a loud or performative way, but in the steady, daily practice of presence. He showed up day after day in some of the hardest conditions a city can place in front of a person, trying to love and serve those living on the fringes of society. And that commitment was not just a season of Kevin's life. It has been the through line of his work. After years at the Romero Center, where he eventually served as director and helped shape social justice education and service learning experiences for thousands of participants. Kevin went on to serve as executive director of New Visions Homeless Day Shelter in Camden. There he led a comprehensive homeless services organization, built partnerships across the corporate government, and nonprofit sectors of the city, and helped strengthen the systems that allowed the organization to serve people with greater dignity and care. Today, Kevin serves as director of operations and administration at Joseph's house of Camden, a 24-7 homeless shelter where he helps oversee operations, volunteer engagement, partnerships, facility, and the day-to-day systems that make compassionate service possible. Kevin also holds graduate degrees in social work and public administration, which feels fitting to me because his life has always carried both a heart for people and a mind for building the structures that serve them well. Kevin is also a husband to his amazing wife, Kate, and the father of their three children. And knowing Kevin, I have no doubt that the same depth of faith and presence he has brought to his work are also a part of the way he shows up for the people closest to him. What I admire about Kevin is his fearlessness, his deep compassion, and his willingness to keep choosing depth when distance would be easier. We've been friends ever since, and I'm honored to welcome to the podcast today. Kevin Moran, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Thank you so much for having me, Don. Quite an honor, you know, to share this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Awesome. Well, thank you very much for being here. And before we jump in, let me share Meditation 45 from my forthcoming book. It's titled Depth Isn't a number, it's a choice. A theme that Kevin picked for our conversation today. The quote I wrote down in my journal a while back was this the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives and life experience by Esther Perrell. The quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives and the life experience. I used to think the most important thing I could build was a great program, a strong model, a compelling experience, something that could reach a lot of people. Now I know the deeper measure was never just how many people showed up. It was whether they were known, whether they stayed connected, whether the relationship had enough depth to carry something real. Earlier in my career, I helped launch youth programs across the city of Pittsburgh. Thousands of young people showed up each summer. We had momentum, visibility, and growth. On the surface, it looked like success. But I remember standing in a gym inside a church after one of our annual kickoff events, looking around the room and realizing I recognized only a few faces from the summer before. That moment stayed with me because what it revealed was hard to ignore. We had breadth, but we didn't have depth. We were reaching wide, but we weren't staying long. We were attracting young people, but we weren't building the kind of relationships that could hold them over time. And if I'm honest, I confused attendance with impact. I confused the quality of the program with the quality of the relationship. Later, after I was thinking of leaving, and during a hard conversation with one of my mentors, Bill, he looked at me and said something I'd never forgot. He said, Don, your problem is you're trying to put a program on a life. And what you ought to be doing is putting a life on a life. That truth was hard to digest because I knew he was right. And something shifted. From that point forward, I began to understand that programs create the conditions, but the relationships do the changing. Structures matter, strategy matters, curriculum matters, but none of it matters as much as the human connection at the center of it all. We don't usually remember the college lesson plan or the after-school program. We remember the person who delivered it, the person who stayed, the person who noticed when something was wrong, the person who made us feel like life mattered before we fully believed in ourselves. That is true in organization and it is true in life. Because at some point, all of us have to decide what are we really measuring here? Are we measuring how many people we reached, how deeply we cared for the people entrusted to us? Are we measuring how impressive the work looked from the outside or how faithfully we showed up on the inside? Are we measuring our lives or our work by progression or by connection? The Harvard study of adult development points to what many of us learn slowly over time. The quality of our close relationships is one of the strongest predictors of long-term happiness and health, not wealth, not achievement, not the size of our network, the quality of our relationships. Depth is not just a personal value, it is an organizational strategy. If we want organizations that truly matter, we have to build cultures that make room for relationship, cultures that value presence over performance, trust over transaction, sustain power over scaling. Trust may not be easily scalable, but it is transferable from one person to another, from one life to another. And maybe that is the real measure of a life. Not how much we built, not how many people we reached, but the quality of the relationships we were willing to tend. The people we saw, the people who saw us, and the depth we chose to leave behind. So I'm going to offer a quick reflection here. And I sat with this for a while, and what strikes me about Esther's quote and as well as the Harvard study is that we usually hear it as a personal truth. The quality of our relationships determine the quality of our lives. Yes, it's true, but I think it's also an organizational truth. The quality of our relationships determine the quality of our teams, our cultures, and the work we are able to sustain together. Every Thursday morning at 6 a.m., a small group of dedicated teachers, administrators, and support people would gather to talk about students who were falling through the cracks. Academic issues, behavioral issues, attendance issues, family struggles. But no matter what the presenting issue was, the conversation almost always came back to the same question who has a relationship with this young person. Not who has the best intervention, not who has the authority to put that intervention in place, not who has the title to give us the things we need to put that intervention in place. And if the honest answer was that no one in the room had a strong relationship with that student, we knew we were already behind. Because very few interventions work well in a moment of crisis, if trust has not been built before the crisis arrives, who has the relationship? That question stays with me because it names something essential about leadership. Relationships are not the soft part of the work, they are often the doorway into the work. All of that matters. But over time I've come to believe that the best leaders are not just supervisors, they're relationship builders. Or as my friend Bill Milliken once said, relationship routers. They notice who is disconnected, they pay attention to where trust is thin. They help people find their way back to connection. And I think that is the difference between transactional leadership and relational leadership. One asks, how can we provide better service? The other asks, how can I be of service? And I still have to ask myself that all the time because debt work does not happen by accident. It happens when we choose relationship as the work. And that choice changes how we lead. Relationship becomes the structure that holds everything else together. Kevin, as you listen to the meditation and the reflection, wondering what resonated with you, what stayed with you, what are you thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 13:14

I think, I mean, that's a beautiful reflection. Uh, thank you for sharing. You know, the big thing for me is uh, you know, your experience working with the youth, you know, that it's so easy to kind of be uh, you know, try and organize a program that will accomplish a goal. You know, and if we, you know, if we don't look at who has that individual relationship with the individual youth, it's hard to like I look at my work with the homeless here in Camden. Uh, it's important that you take time to build that trust and build that relationship. And then ultimately you can work towards achieving their goals uh just because they're able to put their faith in somebody. You know, it might not be me, it might be a coworker, but if you don't take time to build that relationship, you don't have the opportunity to help them achieve what their you know individual goals are. And you know, just like anywhere, and I tell um many of the volunteers that we work with here uh at Joseph's house that so many times, you know, that you know, you need to come in and allow our hearts and minds to be open to receiving that relationship, that it's not me giving to the people, but it's ultimately how am I receiving and being open to receiving that gift?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah, that's that's I'm really glad you brought that up. I'm curious as to was there a moment in your journey where you recognized that you started out wanting to give, and that you realized you were actually receiving more than you were giving.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah, it was um, you know, through my high school, college experiences, I had the opportunity to do uh alternative spring break, winter break trips. And it actually was um, you know, uh you had mentioned Larry DePaul in my intro. You know, then I look at Larry as a tremendous mentor. I had the opportunity to work for him uh at the Remember Center uh before he left and took another job. Um, and I always looked at like going on an alternative rate trip, you know, whether it be a soup kitchen, a homeless shelter, like hurricane Katrina relief work, uh, that, you know, I was well educated, had access to a wonderful supportive family, that I have a gift, and on this trip I'm gonna provide to the needs of the impoverished or the homeless or the um inner city youth. And Larry, you know, looked at me at one point and he said, Did you ever think about reversing that mindset to you have a need to be educated, to be made aware? Like I was born on second base and I felt like I hit a double. I didn't do anything to be born into the family that I was born into. Well, people that were born in Haiti or Camden or Kensington, right outside Philly, they didn't have a choice where they were born into. Uh so he said, Did you ever think about reversing that mindset that the people that you meet on these service trips have a tremendous gift to offer to you? And if we approach it, that you know, like we're not open to receiving that gift, the meaningful and transformative experiences will never happen and we won't be changed from within. So, you know, it was just one of those uh encounters, you know, by a mentor that I just approach every experience after that with, wow, that's so true that I have a need to be educated, to be made aware. And wherever I go, you know, being open to receiving the gifts of the people that, you know, are being a service at the homeless shelter or at the soup kitchen, that, you know, I'm one paycheck away. So I'm not much farther from they are, but you know, I'd much rather, instead of being so task-driven, sit down and have a cup of coffee with somebody, you know, that is in the soup kitchen line, you know, then uh just those conversations and that relational aspect is really uh how I've approached every experience after that, you know, and I try and force myself to be open to, you know, I have the need, and the people that I meet have a tremendous gift to offer to me.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Well, I I have to highlight what you just said in terms of what repeating back to you what I just heard, which in essence was that in the role of wanting to serve others, Larry's message was that everyone has a gift to give before they have a need to have met. And our mentalities that we're going into this work to meet somebody's need without realizing that they're actually got a gift to give us as well. And I really love that. So I appreciate you bringing that up. And it makes me think about, I mean, you know, I got to know Larry as well through my relationship with you. And I remember bringing down a group um to Camden one April, and you all were setting us up with a service project to kind of an assisted living home, but it was um, it had a lot of folks that were disabled. And you could tell he could tell that the kids were nervous about going, and uh, we're talking, you know, freshmen or sophomores at that time. And he said, you know, what I want you to do when you show up, you're gonna see a lot of people in wheelchairs, and I just want you to not notice the wheelchair. I just want you to focus on the person inside the wheelchair, and I thought it was a beautiful thing because you know, we can get so caught up in the appearance and first impressions and lose the dignity of the person in front of us and the humanity of what they're facing by looking at what this what what's um circumstantially around them. So, Larry, he's a God bless his soul, because uh he he's no longer with us, but uh man, he he touched our lives, didn't he?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, and somebody like that, you know, like it just is a testament to that he was relational, you know, because you know, it's uh he passed away back in 2014 and his stories continue. Um, you know, I'm sure you or any of the students that had an opportunity to meet him, you know, like they remember the stories because he was so relational. Yeah, and I uh, you know, um going along with um the service experiences, like I've gone uh done work in Ecuador, El Salvador, some international work, and we would always think we're going to this village and we're gonna create what we think they need. Well, no, you just go and you work alongside the people that live in that community. They know what they need, you know. So who am I from New Jersey coming, you know, to Ecuador to tell them, oh, they need, you know, a lunch program and they need that. No, they want, you know, a soccer field for the kids to play at, or they want a community center. You know, so I think that just being open to you go with open arms to say, I'm willing to serve this community. I need to sit down and meet the people and assess what their needs are, you know, as opposed to a group of college kids thinking we're gonna, you know, redevelop this um land for them. And they might say, no, there's a um, you know, a church down the street. We don't need to build a church. So it's just, I think, going to a community realizing that you're walking alongside the people that live there, that you know, we're not creating anything for them, we're just getting to meet them and encounter them and help them uh, you know, provide that kind of support.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, well said, well said, and and I do think that um we spend a lot of time discussing with kids when we bring them into new environments to to to really wonder uh to to really check their biases at the door from the standpoint of othering people, you know. And one of the ways we overcame that was that, you know, we went to Camden a couple of times a year in A uh in February and April. But then in the summertime, uh young people from Camden would come to Maine. And we would begin to do a cultural exchange where both got to experience each other's uh worlds and then begin to talk about how many things were alike rather than things that were different. And as a way to kind of move away from this piece of like, you're so different from me, and that makes you this X, Y, or Z. But in terms of really finding that common ground by bringing both communities together out of their communities into the other, and vice versa, and then really having deep conversation around that, uh, was uh was really inspired out of our experiences in Camden, trying to make sure that we are really honoring those communities by making sure that it's not just a one, you know, a one and done experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

And uh, you know, being able to open up, like you said, that dual relationship, you know, the people from Camden never, you know, some of them possibly never cross state lines, and then all of a sudden they're coming up to, you know, a rural community in Maine, you know, uh, you would take them out on canoes and just the experiences, you know, that that is, you know, I'm sure if you were to ask any of those youth from Maine or from Camden that are probably in their 20s and 30s now, you know, ask them what kind of experiences from your childhood stand out. It's those kind of uh encounters, you know, uh whether or not they've kept in touch with the kids from Camden or the kids from Maine, but they'll be able to share the story of somebody that shared during a reflection time or something like that. Uh, and that's what you know, you uh pointed it out in your meditation that that becomes the uh legacy, you know, looking back.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

So well, I I'm this is a twofold question. I'm gonna ask you the first one first, but when you hear the idea that depth is not a number, it's a choice. What does that bring up for you in your own life and work? And I'm just curious whether that feels true to you, especially given the years you've spent in Canada and building relationships and places where people are often too overlooked.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

You know, I think it is um that so many times we get so, like you mentioned in the meditation, you know, so program driven, you know, that we, you know, I find myself and I have to challenge myself. I get so task driven that I lose sight that, you know, I walk by co-workers or you know, some people that we serve, and you know, like they may have felt ignored because I'm going from point A to point B. You know, that uh, and so many programs, we want to see numbers, we want to serve the masses, and you know, it's not a successful program unless you reach and target a certain number. And, you know, we have to kind of sit back and realize if I'm offering, you know, like a holistic program to a group of people and one person shows up, well, you're getting through to that one person. And, you know, if we have a program that we bring in somebody to do a financial management discussion and two people show up, well, that's two people that are able to start saving money to move on from Joseph's house. You don't need a room of 30. But in our mentality, we want to see that room of 30 to think that it's a successful program. You know, so I think it's just a life lesson that we constantly have to sit back and realize the, you know, important part of the work is building those relationships. And, you know, the people that we serve on a daily basis at Joseph's house, um, you know, they're being cast aside from society, from their families, and they're isolated. So they're coming here more than the toiletries we provide or the social work, case management services we offer, they're coming here for a safe haven, a roof over their head, to be able to have a safe place to go, that they're not wandering the streets of Camden, you know, day in and day out. Uh, so I think walking through the door, our starting point needs to be a place of love and compassion and dignity. And after you build that relationship with the individual guests that we serve, then you're able to work on their action steps to achieving their individual goals. But, you know, I think it's just a lesson that we need to, you know, we have um groups that come here all the time and you know, we let them know we don't need to organize the toiletry room or the uh donations or, you know, serving a meal. We would much rather have you sit down and enjoy a meal with the people that we serve because it dignifies the folks that we're serving, you know, that uh somebody's willing just to sit down and have a conversation, like you said, to find that commonality that I have just as much to learn from you as you have to learn from me, uh, whether, you know, I'm utilizing the services at Joseph's house or whether I'm working at Joseph's house, that we all have experiences and you know, stories to share. And that's really what we try and stress with the volunteers. We want them to leave with the names, the faces, and of the people that they need, uh, so they're able to kind of continue those stories once they get back to their communities. You know, so I think it just becomes a, you know, not being so task-driven that we're willing to kind of sit back and say the focus needs to be on, like you mentioned, the human connection with people, you know, and how can we, you know, I went into social work hoping that I would be able to help people and serve alongside people, you know, so the task can wait, the post-it notes can wait. But, you know, if you're having a rough day, I want to be able to um be sensitive to that, to follow up throughout the day, you know, how are things going? Just a real brief conversation because for you, it might be the only minute or two minutes that somebody takes time out of their day to, you know, listen to, you know, you're having a rough day or you're happy, you're sad to be able to express those feelings.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

But well, I love one litmus test as to whether or not when we are serving any population, whether it's kids or people who are without a home, really brings me to the quote by Oscar Romero, which is painted on the walls of the Romero Center, which is you tell me you care about the poor, will tell me their names. And you know, you you can't you can't work with the masses and know all their names. So you've got to focus on depth of relationship in order to do that. And I think that uh really aligns with the uh what you just shared.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, and I did another uh mentor a while back. Uh, you know, we used to bring uh presenters to the Romero Center to talk to the high school and college student. And this one guy, uh, you know, he was presenting, he worked at a homeless shelter in Philly. And, you know, his he said, you know, being called by name is the best music for one's ears. And how many times does somebody get introduced to us? And if we're sidetracked or we're not paying attention, their name kind of goes in one ear and out the other. But for them, that might be the only time that somebody calls them by name, you know. So I heard that, and I'm like, yeah, when somebody introduces themselves to take note of what that person's name is, you know, because uh then you're walking past them in the hallway or in the dining room, in the dormitory, and you're able to say their name, and it's just another way to affirm their dignity.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Well, I'm curious, Kevin. You know, you spent a lot of your life showing up and what some would consider some hard places with people living on the edges of society, and I'm curious about what helped you stay when it would have been easier to leave. I'm just curious what what are the things that keep you there?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah, uh, that's an interesting question because I do ask myself that all the time. You know, when I was at Romero, I was there for four or five years, and I could have been there for another 20, 25 years. Like I just felt that sense of comfort and I enjoyed the work. Uh, you know, I enjoyed bringing high school and college students and young adults to the city of Camden to expose them to the city and the injustices. But when a position opened up at a homeless day shelter in Camden, you know, you had mentioned, you know, I've always considered myself to be a very uh faith-filled person, you know, that faith has always been important to me. So I uh, you know, thought about it, I discerned about it that a position opened up at a day shelter. And, you know, I talked to uh Father Bob McDermott, who was the pastor of the uh parish in East Camden, and he said, you know, we learn and we get transformed when we're restless, when we're uncomfortable. So if we're being true, you know how many times have we read like Matthew 25, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, uh, visit the imprisoned. And if we're being true to what I was, you know, at the Romero Center emphasizing with the high school and the uh college uh students that came through, we need to put ourselves in position to be uncomfortable in order to have these meaningful and transformative experiences. Uh so Father Bob's point was why don't you apply if it's meant to be, you'll go through the process and they just won't hire you. Well, at that point, they uh you know did offer me the position as the director. So I took it, and not a day goes by that I'm not uncomfortable. Um, you know, but I think it's through those moments that we're able to, you know, learn and grow. And, you know, mental health when you're in this line of work, it's really important that you have, you know, outlets. Uh, you know, luckily I have a um wonderful wife, my three children, I have a very supportive family uh that I'm leaving work to go home to, and also just having strong coworkers who, you know, realize that the work is, you know, success is very difficult to measure. So, you know, a lot of times you're hearing difficult stories and challenging experiences for the people that we serve, but just to realize, you know, our role is to provide love and compassion and dignity and walk with them uh to provide the support that they need to get back on their feet. So uh, you know, the challenges in this work, you know, it is uncomfortable. Like I didn't thank God I didn't experience being homeless at any point in my life. But, you know, what can I contribute to this community? And, you know, I think by providing love to the people that we serve, that's a starting point. And then you build that relationship, you know. So it's um just you know, for some people it's music, for some people, you know, they do artwork on the side. Uh for me, it's just having that supportive family dynamics, you know, that I'm grateful for that I'm able to leave. I mean, I've had you know, since I've had my three children, you know, I kind of have opportunities for them to engage in volunteering. You know, I don't think it's ever too young for them to be exposed, you know. Like when my 11-year-old daughter was two, three years old, you know, she would come and visit me at work, and you know, I would walk around, you know, as if she's friends with the men and women that we serve, you know, and I think that's really important is to just expose them and um, you know, teach them that, you know, we're so similar, uh, like you mentioned about going to that uh nursing home. If you can just keep your eyes off the wheelchair and realize that it's friend to friend, you know, that it's so nice to be able to sit and have a cup of coffee with somebody that we serve and view that person as your brother, as your sister. And I think when we get to that point in relationships, uh you're really able to learn from one another.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Well, maybe this is a good time to just talk a little bit about the scale of the work that you're actually doing right now. Um, can you give us a sense as to um you're running a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week shelter, overnight shelter? Uh, how many are there in the city of Camden? What um what's the population of Camden? That sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, uh, there's uh every year, um, you know, they do a uh point in time that they try and have an accurate count for the homeless population. So every year, you know, it comes out that there's you know, five, six hundred uh homeless men and women, and you know, homelessness, you know, they define it, you know, whether it be couch surfing or encampments. Joseph's house uh serves uh we have 80 cots on the floor, so it's uh adult men and women, and then we're one of the few. The other program would be the volunteers of America that and the thing about Joseph's house, you don't need a referral to come to Joseph's house. That you know, somebody would come through the intake process new to being homeless, and then it all depends. Like, if we have space, we'll accept them in, and we target the most vulnerable population. So we do like an assessment at the at the intake process, and then uh like up until last May, we were only like we started out as a winter program three months of the year from January till uh April, and then ultimately we realized that homelessness was in June, July, and August, just like it was during the winter months. So we were able to extend to become a year-long program. And then during COVID, when libraries closed down, communities closed, uh community centers closed down, we extended to we were a night program from 8 p.m. to 8 a.m. And then our day program from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. And we realized for somebody struggling with an addiction or mental health from 1 o'clock till 8 p.m., you know, it was a significant gap of them having to wander the streets. So that's when uh the board and our current executive director made the commitment to uh, you know, be open for 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And it's through that that we're able to ultimately save lives as a result of providing round-the-clock uh services. So not only do we provide the cot and the toiletries and the clothing, but we do like wrap around uh case management services. So if somebody needs mental or behavioral health, addiction treatment, employment, housing, we have social workers that work with them uh to move them, you know, work with them in achieving their goals. Uh so they develop action steps and stuff like that. Um so we try and take like a holistic view. You know, we do uh like yoga, uh financial management, um, just trying to offer a variety of experiences for the folks who we serve.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Yeah, sounds amazing. Uh so and any given night you could have 80, 80 folks there.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Oh correct, yep.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah, wow. Well, I am wondering about um when you think about if you had a magic wand and could address this issue, because this is an issue of terms of housing and uh across the United States right now, let alone in Camden. I'm just curious if you had a magic wand, do you have a sense as to where you would start?

SPEAKER_00 38:27

I think the big thing, uh, you know, I as I mentioned, Joseph's house is uh an um, you know, we started out as an emergency shelter, so it's cops on the floor. Um, and some of the folks that we serve have such complex situations that, you know, for some people they might be able to come through, they get a job, they're able to save money, you know, and then ultimately they can find a room for rent or a housing situation. But a lot of the folks that we serve are here for, you know, six months, nine months, a year, sometimes a little over a year. So if we were able to provide like a post-emergency shelter opportunity for folks, just for them to be able to have a community that supports them. And, you know, ultimately, um, you know, you see a lot of programs all for like social enterprise. Uh, for example, Cathedral Kitchen, you know, they do three to four hundred uh hot meals for dinner every night. Well, they started a culinary arts program, a baking arts program. Uh, so it's providing 14 to 16 weeks of, you know, experiences that they include budgeting and life skills, uh, and then somebody ultimately would have an internship at a local restaurant. And, you know, they're able to um, you know, start with, you know, like having the skill, and then they're able to uh work and then get a house. Uh so a lot of the folks that we serve, you know, um, because it's so difficult to find housing for, you know, I think coming up with a plan to be able to provide a Joseph's house next step, like a full continuum of services.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Got it. Yeah. Just for the audience out there that hasn't had uh that much opportunity to actually uh begin to work with uh the unhoused populations across our country. What do you think is one of the biggest uh what's the biggest myth you'd like to debunk around folks? Because it's just such a struggle sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I think the common one, you know, the uh somebody who's homeless, you know, like it's by choice, or you know, they're all addicted to drugs or they all have a mental health issue. You know, I think, and we find this out through the intake process and through building relationships with people that, you know, for some it's because you know they're going through uh like a family situation. It might be a divorce, and you know, uh somebody has to leave the house and they find themselves to be homeless, but they don't have mental health or drug addiction, you know, that especially now the way that how difficult it is to afford, you know, the cost of housing and utilities, and you know, it's very challenging uh to be able to, you know, make a living, and then ultimately, you know, if you're not able to find a job that you know suits your skill set, um, you know, it's very difficult to afford housing. So I think uh just a myth that you know all those experiencing homelessness are, you know, in one category, you know, that we kind of hear all sorts of different stories from the people that we serve. And um, you know, that our goal is to meet them where they're at and not take them to a place they're not ready to go. You know, we'll provide them the support uh along the way and the resources, but you know, it's so easy for me to say, oh, this person needs to go into this facility, or this person needs that. Well, no, you meet them where they're at and you get a sense of what their goals are. And, you know, what do they want in their life, you know, and just to kind of offer those resources.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Well, I I have a question for you that I wanted to make sure I asked you. It's a it's a I think it's a tough question because it's a it was a tough question for me to answer somebody that was running an organization that was focused on debt when funding usually is the thing required for funding is meaning the the amount of people served gets you a particular grant, not uh how deeply you serve the number that you have. And as somebody that runs a organization, I know there's another, there's an executive director and probably a development team as well, but how do you all uh balance this piece around the sheer numbers and focused on the amount of people coming to for the soup kitchen, the amount of people that stay overnight, the uh amount of people that come to yoga and those sorts of things without getting lost, almost like losing focusing on the wheelchair, right? Instead of the human beings that might show up. I'm just curious, like how does the organization actually talk about it internally so that that because it's a real world issue, you have to have certain numbers in order to get some of these grants. And if you don't get those grants, you can't serve the numbers that you do have, whether it's small or or large. Uh, has that been has that tension showed up? And uh, if so, how have you handled it?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, it uh definitely does, you know, like you mentioned, you know, grant reports and they want to see the outcomes and the you know, um you know, how are you measuring your goals? And, you know, every opportunity that we have to share the vignettes, you know, small stories of people that we're serving, you know, I think they become like impact statements. You know, so every opportunity, whether it be an annual report, a thank you letter to a donor, you know, grant uh relationships, uh, we really try and just highlight the successes of the people that we serve. You know, the uh people that have gone through our program and are currently working here. You know, I think that holds, you know, a testament of the impact that this place had on an individual that was a guest six months ago or eight months ago, and all of a sudden, you know, they start working here and now they're one of our shift managers, you know. Um, then I think people want to hear those stories. But it is difficult that if you write, you know, a grand RFP that we're gonna service this number of people and we're gonna, you know, have different benchmarks. And if you know, we get so focused on relationship that all of a sudden the reports don't show that you're meeting those benchmarks, you know, will we be funded the next the following year and that sort of thing? But yeah, every opportunity that we have to kind of share those personal stories of individuals, as opposed to, you know, we'll include the operating statistics and all the annual stats that donors want to see. We'll include that in our reports, but we'll also try and focus on more anecdotal data. Um, so they're able to, you know, we uh, for example, some donors want to adopt a cot, you know, adopt an individual. Well, yeah, by sharing those personal stories, it's you know, my donation is going towards supporting this individual guest, you know, uh it just becomes much more personal, yeah, for the supporters.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Yeah, that's well said. I appreciate you just indulging me in that that that question and and the answer. Before we move toward the end here, I wanted to flip the script for a moment. Um given our friendship and the years we've known each other, is there a question you might have for me around this question of depth and relationships, leadership or otherwise?

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I've always admired about you, uh, and I, you know, obviously most of my experience was your work with trackers, you know, uh, and um how impactful, you know, that you know, so many times at an organization you look at the executive director, especially a youth organization, and it's all like, oh, they're hands off. You know, I can't, like they're the development person or they're the ones that make this trip go super smoothly. Um, and the one thing that I always did admire was that you know, you would think nothing of, you know, having a bowl of cereal and a cup of coffee with one of the young people. And, you know, I think, you know, the like the impact of these youth being able to say, hey, Don's a friend. He's not my director. You know, yes, he directs Trekards, and but ultimately he's having this impact on my life because he's willing to listen to my struggles and my challenges and my hopes, and you know, and I really always just admire you know how much the youth looked up to you. And, you know, when I talked about how challenging it is to be fully present, you know, how do you remain fully present in relationship with the people that you work with day in and the day out?

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Yeah, well, I I mean it's great because you you've seen me uh in action in that way, and uh, even though I haven't necessarily been on the front lines for a while, but you know, when I think about this, I go to this question around the title, which is depth isn't a number, it's a decision. And when you think about, or when I think about the work that I've been involved in, it starts with the decision that whomever is gonna be the whomever the young person is, or the leader is, or the volunteer is, or the donor is, it's a six-year journey. And for instance, what I sometimes say to donors is that you know, one gift can open up a door for a young person, six years of a gift can change a life. And the point being that once you have the mentality that you're not going away over the course of, you know, a young person when they turn 12 years old and all the way until they're 18, it gives you this incredible opportunity to build that trust over time instead of trying to get it all done in one program just because you wanted 150 kids to work with that summer, which was the differentiating thing that took me from my Pittsburgh experience, which was just like, hey, could we work and touch kids with love for for thousands of kids? Yeah, we did that, but I'm not seeing the results. And so that ability for making a decision to focus on depth and not breadth has been hard because you know it's really hard to scale a program that works with 20 kids a year to 40 kids a year to 60 kids a year, ultimately slow over almost 16 years to build it to 240 kids, and that's it. But you're spending six years over the course of time. And over those six years, the reason I can sit down and have coffee with a kid. In fact, I just had, I'm just coming today from a coffee this morning where one of the alumni, a former trekker, drove three and a half hours out of northern Maine down to near where I live so we could have coffee because I hadn't seen her in 17 years. And she just wanted to sit and talk. And it was awesome. And I was so grateful. And we picked up right where we left off because we had that foundational six-year relationship before she graduated. And you know, if if I would have done like an hour program with her or some after-school program with her, that would have never, ever, ever happened. So I, you know, it's a choice, it's a deep personal value of a choice to say, I'm not going for the numbers. I'm gonna build this model that's based on depth. And whatever I do, whatever team I'm on, or whatever organization I'm serving, I'm gonna keep that to a limited number because I can't do big numbers well. That's what I learned. And I felt like in the end, the thing that shifted things for us from a found from a uh funding perspective as a way to get over this thing about numbers is we began to educate the funders to say, listen, we are the thing that makes us distinct, the differentiating factor between us and uh and a YMCA or whatever it might be who's serving kids is that we're just doing it on a really small number, but for a long period of time. And that depth, breadth, and duration over time is the thing that really led to the allowing me to be present for kids and for leaders and for mentors and all that stuff, you know. I think that was the secret sauce was the choice to go small.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah, no, that's great. You know, and I think um, you know, luckily I've been put in positions, you know, through professional, personal, that, you know, you had mentioned in the intro that ministry of presence, you know, that how can we be fully present for the people that we encounter day in and day out, whether it be a friend, a family member, somebody, you know, um one of the youth or one of the people experiencing homelessness, you know, like being present is so much more important than working through a to-do list, you know, because for that individual that you're encountering, it might be the only time that day or that week that somebody takes time to listen to their story, you know, and ultimately, like you said, you know, by building that relationship, that becomes transformational. And it's not a transactional, you know, friendship or relationship, but it is in that uh human connection that you're able to learn from one another.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

Yeah, uh, I will would say to anybody that would listen that was part of youth programming, but you can use this in in whatever organization that you're in, but you know, young people don't need more programs, they need more presence, you know, absolutely and the the the clientele that you're working with, they don't need more programs, they need more presence. And people who are the way I think about presence is that I think of it in a way that when I have somebody in mind, I'm thinking three or four steps ahead of them, thinking about looking around the corner, thinking about ways I could support them without them even knowing that I'm thinking about them, so that when I'm showing up, I'm taking the full context of their life. Like I'm thinking about the young lady I met with today. I would always be thinking about where was her softball game? Where would she be after school? Where could I show up in other spaces to be present for her so that she knew that I cared about her, not because she was in our program, but because she was part of this community. And my job was to go out and be in the community as a presence of love and care and a smiling face and a person of love that really wanted her best interest in mine. That's how I think about presence, you know. And when you think of it from that perspective, the programs themselves are just smoke screens to build the relationship as a way that you can then be present in their lives and other spaces. But anyway, I I know I'm getting off topic here, but I I know we're coming to the end here. And I wanted to ask you for people listening who may be leading an organization, they might be leading a team, they might be raising a family, serving a community, or simply realizing they have been measuring too much by simple numbers, where would you encourage them to begin to think differently?

SPEAKER_00 55:08

I think the biggest thing is just being open to, you know, listening, being open to, you know, building that relationship through a conversation, uh, whether it be over a cup of coffee or whether it be sitting, you know, alongside somebody at a, you know, in a cafeteria or at a desk, uh, that, you know, so many times I find myself so closed-minded that I'm not giving myself an opportunity to have a relationship with somebody because, you know, I'm thinking about A, B, and C and what I need to do and the next thing. And even, you know, I find myself uh in relationship with my kids or my wife that I get sidetracked or distracted. The next thing I know, I'm scrolling, you know, through my phone. And it's like, wait, put the phone aside and ask my child, you know, how their day at school was or how was baseball practice. You know, I asked my wife how you know work was, and uh, are there any stories that stand out from your day? You know, so many times I find myself like quickly just scrolling through Facebook, for example. And, you know, that's not the priority. The priority is, you know, what are my kids? You know, what did they enjoy doing today at school? What did they struggle with at school? Are there, you know, um joys in their friendships or challenges with friends? Um, but so many times if we're sidetracked, you know, vacuuming the house or scrolling through Facebook, that we lose sight of having that conversation. Um, and I think that's a life lesson, whether it be our kids, our spouse, our friends, people we serve, uh, it's really important just to be open to receiving that relationship in with everybody that we encounter. Um you know, whether like I uh remember, you know, my um wife's grandmother who passed away about a a year ago, uh, she would always, you know, treat the person at Starbucks with the same dignity that, you know, she would be uh in her 90s, bring in a meal to a local soup kitchen, and you know, she would uh always have it in her to ask somebody, you know, how are you doing? What's going on? What's new with you? And I think, you know, like by taking that time to embrace and encounter the other, um, you know, whether it be somebody that we're working with or a gas attendant at the gas station, you know, just to be open to being real in relationship uh with whoever we meet.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

I'm sorry I didn't get to meet her, but sounds like an amazing uh person. You know, Kev, I uh you know, we go back almost uh 25 years, and um, so I just want to thank you for being open to uh meeting me where I was, I was just uh trying to figure it out back in the day. And uh you guys took us in and it built a thriving relationship. And the experience that we had under your leadership and Larry's impacted a lot, a lot of young people's lives. And right now I know for a fact that when there are myths about particular cultures or particular situations that people find themselves in in urban environments that get kind of um a lot of uh conversation going on on Facebooks and things like that. I know that they can say, you know, some of that's not true because I got to meet whomever it might have been during those experiences. Uh, I got to spend time with kids from Camden. That's not the experience that I had, that's not the lived experience that I have. And you provided that for so many kids, including myself. So I just want to thank you for your friendship and being open to caring and loving loving me over the years.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Absolutely. And I was always, you know, uh just in awe that you included experiences to the Romero Center in Camden as part of your, you know, tracker experiences, you know, whether you guys were doing a history tour of Philly and DC, like you've always made Camden a priority for uh the experiences. And like you said, you know, I think it's you know, like seeing all the history in Philly and DC, that was all a critical part of the trips that you guys took. Uh, but you've always made it a point to stop at the Romere Center, whether you were there for two days or four days, uh, you know, so we were able to be in relationship with one another. So yeah, no, I'm grateful for the friendship. And uh, it's hard to believe it's been over 20, 20 some years.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yeah, well, those trips on the ride through history, you know, Boston, Philadelphia, and DC provided some real good perspective on the cognitive understanding of the history of our country, but it was Camden, New Jersey that provided the heart. So uh I thank you for that. I thank you for uh I applaud you for the continued commitment to serving those who are vulnerable in our society and seeing them as somebody who can give a gift to other people. So thanks, Kev.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Thanks a lot, Don.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Yeah, if you could just stay on for a few minutes, I'll close this out and then we'll go from I'll get to say goodbye to you at the end. So I just want to uh say a few things about what I'm taking away from this conversation. And uh there's really uh four things. One is that one of the things he said early on, and it was through his relationship with his mentor, Larry, but that everyone, everyone, no matter who they are, what political perspective they might have, whatever lived experience they might be having, has a gift to give, not a need to have a have to be met. That we, if we start with the need, we'll lose the strength of the gift that that that we can see in others. And that's why Larry said, don't focus on the wheelchair. That's the need part. Focus on the gift that that that human being has, and you will walk away with a lot more receiving a lot more than you give. I love the fact that he said the life lesson, one of his life's lessons was that you start with love. I mean, it's this really simple thing, but you know, that's a commitment to depth that you start with love, not with numbers, not with job descriptions, not with uh annual goals to bring in. You start with love, compassion, and dignity is what what Kevin said. I love the fact that he named that one of the sweetest things to our ears is being called by name. And if you're really making a commitment to depth in relationships, that you really see this as a commitment that you really want to prioritize relationships, then you have to learn names. You have to be able to say people's names. And I think that that's a real good litmus test as to how many uh our own commitment to how much we are focusing on the depth of relationship over the breadth of one. And then finally, I love that he brought this up because it's something that we can all do no matter what age we're at, whether we're 89. I know we've got some listeners out there that are in their 90s, or whether you're uh 17. And that is that he said we get transformed when we feel uncomfortable. We get transformed when we feel uncomfortable, and so when we're comfortable, we can't grow as much. And so, what are we doing to place ourselves in situations where we can be uncomfortable as a way to learn? And the only way to do that is to be open, and that's where he left us at the end. How would he encourage people to begin the leading with depth is really be open to the relationships? So I really appreciate having him on the show, and I want to now leave you with two uh closing prompts. And the first one is this where am I leadership am I still measuring reach when I should be measuring depth? Where am I leadership am I still measuring reach when I should be measuring depth? And number two, who in my life or who in my work needs more of my presence, not just my effort? Who in my life or work needs more of my presence, not just my effort? As we close, I just want to thank Kevin again for just joining. I appreciate you being here. It's good to see you. As always, I want to thank Omar for producing this episode. If you found something meaningful here today, would you consider sharing this with someone else? That simple act can really help grow this community. And if you have a reflection or a thought you'd like to share with me, you can reach me at Don at Carpenter Company Consulting dot com. Thanks for listening. And please remember that the journey of leadership begins with death.