Stepping Back To Be More

What happens when leadership asks us not to step forward, but to step back?

In this episode, Don reflects on the difference between doing less and being more, and on the quieter forms of leadership that emerge when we release the need to control, solve, or remain at the center. He also explores the identity shift that can come when a role ends, but the habits and weight of responsibility remain.

Don is joined by Fred Adair, a CEO advisor and leadership coach with more than 25 years of experience helping leaders navigate strategy, succession, organizational change, and the personal psychology of leadership.

Together, they discuss why stepping away can be so difficult, how leaders can prepare an organization for life after them, and what it means to remain purposeful without needing to be indispensable.

To learn more about Don's work, upcoming offerings, and leadership resources, visit carpentercompanyconsulting.com

 If something in today’s episode spoke to you, I hope you’ll subscribe and continue the journey with me — because leadership begins within. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Meditations on Leadership. I'm Don Carpenter. Let me ask you: what if leadership is not always about stepping forward, taking charge, or having the answer? What if some of our greatest impact comes when we create enough space for someone else to think, grow, or rise? And what happens when the responsibility or title or role that once gave us purpose begins to change or disappear altogether? Those questions bring us into this week's meditation and into a reflection on what it means to step back without losing our sense of relevance, identity, or purpose. Exploring tensions like these is at the heart of this podcast. Each week begins with a meditation, followed by a personal reflection, and then a conversation with a guest whose lived experience helps bring that theme to life, all in the service of the inner formation that leadership asks of us. And today I'm thrilled to explore this theme with my friend Fred Adair. Fred is a CEO, advisor, and leadership coach who has spent more than 25 years helping leaders strengthen their effectiveness, improve their organization, and navigate the complex personal and professional challenges that come with executive leadership. His work span strategy, organizational design, executive coaching, team development, succession planning, governance, employee engagement, and change management. At the center of all this is Fred's ability to help leaders identify where their attention is most needed and to determine the moves that will have the greatest impact. His research on top management team effectiveness has been featured in both Chief Executive Magazine and Harvard Business Review. I first came to know Fred through his wife Catherine. Together, they were generous supporters of the work we were doing with young people in our community. When I first gave notice that I would be leaving Trekkers, I had no clear picture of what would come next. So I reached out to Fred, hoping he might help me navigate that uncertain chapter of my life. In short, he was extraordinary. Fred listened deeply, asked incredible questions, and understood that what was most critical for me was not immediately finding the next job, but finding clarity about the next mission. He helped me get unstuck. And I will always be grateful for his gentle touch, his wisdom, and the standard he set for the strategic counsel I now try to offer others. Fred, it's a real privilege to welcome you, Meditations on Leadership. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Thank you, Don. It's uh delightful to hear you recall that conversation from so many years ago. I remember it fondly. And um, it's always been great to be whatever in conversation with you, of counsel to you, as as that might have been useful. And I'm just delighted with uh with where you find yourself, where I see that you find yourself these days in your work.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Well, it's amazing what a small intentional conversation can have on somebody, and that was what uh we had that day. So thank you. I'm looking forward to this. Before we jump in, let me uh share meditation 41 from my forthcoming book titled Stepping Back to Be More. It's a theme that Fred picked for our conversation today. The quote I wrote down in my journal was this it's by John Hyder. Quote Good leadership consists of doing less and being more. Good leadership consists of doing less and being more. For years, I understood leadership mostly through the lens of effort. Show up early, stay late, anticipate the problem, carry the weight, find the answer. I was goal-driven to the bone. And I believed meaningful leadership required constant motion. There was always something to solve, strengthen, or protect, or build. In nonprofit leadership, that belief is easy to reinforce. The needs are real, the stakes are high, and the work is never finished. But lately, I've been thinking less about the first half of John Hyder's wisdom and more about the second. What does it actually mean to be more? I'm no longer leading an organization. I now coach and advise nonprofit leaders carrying the kinds of responsibility I once carried. And if I'm honest, part of me misses it. I miss the daily problem solving. I miss the energy of an organization arriving at an inflection point and asking, what do we do now? I miss looking around corners, trying to anticipate the next challenge before it arrives. There was clarity in being responsible for the outcome. This chapter, though, asks something different in me. I'm not the one making the decision. I'm not the one carrying the consequence. I'm not the one who determines what happens next. My role is to be available, to be steady, to offer what Brene Brown calls pocket presence, the ability to remain grounded when the person across from you is under pressure. Like a quarterback who refuses to develop happy feet and make unforced airs. I'm learning to stay in the pocket, to listen before speaking, to resist the urge to solve, to ask the question that helps another person hear their own wisdom. Someone once told me that the job of a good executive coach is not to arrive with the right answers. It is to arrive with the right questions. I like that. It allows me to become more of a mentor than a director, more of a companion than a fixer, more of a calming presence than the person responsible for making everything happen. But there is vulnerability in this kind of leadership. When you are not responsible for the outcome, the impact is harder to see. A program launches, a grant is secured, a young person reaches a milestone, pushes through something, those are outcomes that are visible that I'm used to. But a conversation over coffee, a thoughtful question, an interesting podcast episode, a book someone may never finish. The impact is quieter. And I'm still learning that just because impact is quiet does not mean it is small. Perhaps being more means trusting that presence has value, even when there is no immediate evidence, that helping someone slow down may matter more than helping them speed up. That wisdom is not always demonstrated by what we add to a moment, but by what we refuse to force into it. Leadership is not always about creating movement. Sometimes it is about creating enough calm for someone else to find their footing. Sometimes it's the most mature thing we can offer is not an answer at all. It is our full attention, our patience, our belief in the capacity of the person right in front of us. Maybe that is what it means to be more. So I just wanted to offer a quick personal reflection. Because, you know, when I stepped away from executive leadership, I at that moment could have pursued another executive director role right away. And I have to say that there was comfort in that possibility because I knew how to do that work. I understood the pace, the pressure, and the responsibility, and I knew who I was in that role. But of course, I chose not to. I chose to wait and go all in on building a consulting practice. It's been the right decision. It was also more unsettling than I expected. Without the title, would I still be relevant? Without the responsibility, would I still feel significant? Without an organization to lead, would I still know what my purpose was? Leaving executive leadership felt like having a cast removed. The cast was gone, but I was still carrying the sensations of it, the weight of it. I continued moving carefully, almost protectively, as though the old responsibilities were still wrapped around me. The role had disappeared, but my mind and my body had yet to catch up. It had given my day structure, urgency, and a clear sense of that I was needed. Once it was gone, I had to confront how much my identity had become attached to carrying the responsibility. I had to sit with an uncomfortable question. Was I searching for another organization to lead or for another title to reassure me that I still mattered? At 56 years old, I'm still working through that. But I'm beginning to understand that the purpose does not disappear when responsibility changes, and relevance does not come, have to come from being at the center. The caste is gone. The deeper work is learning that I do not need to replace it with another one. Fred, as you listen to the meditation and the reflection, what resonated with you, what stirred in you, what's staying with you.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Oh, um, I'm just so uh I have such admiration, Don, for how deeply you're going into this topic. It's not easy to confront hard truths. It's not easy to look in the mirror and uh and be sober-minded about what you see. And I just, my hat's off to you for doing that. And it's a wonderful place from which to offer counsel to other people. You know, there's a a uh an icon, uh, an archetype of a wounded healer. I'm not sure, I don't I can't give you the source, but um it's probably in the tarot card somewhere. Uh it's it goes back so so long, but it says that somebody who can who can help help make positive things happen, help healing, help it, help uh organization organizations grow is somebody who's deeply aware of their of their own foibles, their own wounds, their own, you know, uh flat sides and weaknesses. So I um I think that's a just a marvelous place to come from. I was struck as you were talking about the role of uh executive coach and you know the the awareness of needing to step back from owning things, how much that nonetheless is what the role of a CEO is? So much of my work with uh you know, most of my work has been in in uh private enterprises, so CEOs of uh profit-seeking uh organizations, where there's a there's a ready measure for how successful the organization is, but it's not the only measure we all know. But um I'm I'm struck by uh uh the parallels to a lot of the counsel I've offered to CEOs, that you you're not, you know, you're not a leader unless you have followers. And how do you get followers? It well, it depends. You get how do we you know say I've often said, how do you get followers one at a time because everybody's different. Uh and you need to recognize that if you're an executive leader, uh, that every every single one of your constituents is uh an individual person. You know, when they go home and look in the mirror, when they talk to their spouse or their parents or or their friends, uh they see themselves as distinct and unique. And if you don't see them that way, you know, you're missing something. Uh so it it it positions leadership as something that is done only through the actions of others.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Good. I'm writing that down. Well, I've got a couple questions for you about your work with CEOs, but before I go there, I wanted to ask you of, you know, I sent you, you know, a bunch of different leadership themes, and um you chose this idea of the stepping back one. And I'm just curious about your own personal relationship with this theme. Has stepping back generally come naturally to you, or is it a practice that you have to wrestle with like I have if I had to?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I I wouldn't say I've had to wrestle with it like you've had to, because I didn't my my work history is different from yours. You know, I wasn't an executive director or you know, a titular leader to go from that to being it's a stepping back and playing the role like you're playing now. I've been a basically an advisor my whole work career. But what I drew on most prominently for my self self-concept is the role I played in basketball, which was the point guard. And um I I'm most comfortable on the basketball court when the ball's in my hands. But you know, and you come down the court and you know, 100% of the time you have to be ready to shoot. But 80% of the time or more, you pass the ball off. You enable somebody else to accomplish something. So that role has an enormous amount of relevance, in my view, for CEOs, where you yet, yes, you step back, but it's not your only position, right? You do have to step forward. There's times you have to lead by advocacy, there's times you have to have to lead by example, but the work of uh the organization happens to other people.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

So take me through a little bit about you spent 25 years in this role, and perhaps there's still some work that you're doing on the side, but in terms of your daily functioning, you you had to give that up as you decided to no longer work at this. And I'm wondering about was that a tough decision or was that an easy one in terms of stepping back?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

It was uh it was easy, but it was only easy because I wanted to replace it with another thing that I would step forward with. So in some ways, that that's you know, it wasn't easy. Letting go of being of influence, being being uh so it's that that's I think it's the same concept. It's not leading, but it's definitely being of influence. Letting go of the notion of being the point guard, having the ball in my hand, you know, helping direct a project with the with the CEO and uh and then you know pass the ball at the appropriate time. I love that role. And um I mourn the loss of that that opportunity, that capacity. But what I replaced it with, which which you know, because we've had prior conversations with, is I'm writing. Uh I'm writing memoir now. I've turned to my my my earliest and deepest interest, which is uh you know, literature, the creative process and uh and being a uh full-time wordsmith. So I I stepped forward in another place in order to step back out of one. And I didn't feel like that was cheating uh the question. To me, it felt like being true to myself, you know, which is I've still got a lot to give, but I want to give it to hopefully a lot of a lot of readers once I finish uh writing this work.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Yeah, I'm really glad you brought up that writing because I have been interested in uh about that aspect of your life. When you think about this chapter, I'm just going back to the theme here.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

The idea of stepping back or letting go and being more. You know, what are you intentionally doing less of so that you can be more of something? Meaning, like, what have you begun releasing? What has that created more room for besides writing? It is there anything else that you're saying to yourself at this stage of your life, hey, I'm gonna step back so I can be more of X.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah. One of the things that I enjoyed most about my consulting work, you know, the work as a CEO advisor, is that it called forth a part of me that I feel like is a real towering strength and being immodest for a moment, and it let me give full flourish to that, which is the ability to carry the stories of other people. I really uh thrive in getting to know people as they know themselves. And that in the in my work that would always start with the CEO, but it would extend to his or her team. And by extension, depending on the nature of the engagement, to other members of the organization. And once you know somebody deeply, you're able to appreciate them and you're able to think creatively about what they might want to consider that they're not considering, which is the essence of counsel. Uh, or can or listen to everything they're doing and say, you know what? My highest service to you is saying keep doing 100% of what you're doing, right? It's not always to offer something different, but it's to know them deeply and be to be able to think creatively about what next. That part of me is always running. You know, I can't turn that off. And so I needed to deploy that somewhere else. That's what I'm doing to the characters in my memoir. That's what I'm doing. My I'm a grandfather now, too, as you know. So I'm that's what I'm doing with the next generation. And um, I haven't stopped, uh I haven't let go of that. I haven't had to let go of that. I've just deployed it elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah, that's really beautiful. You had mentioned a couple minutes ago about the idea that you had to mourn a little bit of really letting go of the influence that you had in the way you were doing it then, and you shifted to this new way that you hope will have a great deal of influence on many people who read your work. And obviously, you're having a major influence on your grandchildren and showing up in the community and all those sorts of things. I'm just curious, uh, as uh just to name something here. I have found the idea of mourning something, definitely felt that at different stages of transition. And I'm wondering if you created any rituals for that. Like, was there anything that you did to mark that mourning as a way to move through it rather than around it? Um, so that you could acknowledge it. I mean, uh, you say you're a writer, but I'm wondering, did you do that through like journal writing or did you do that in council with Catherine, or did you acknowledge that with your kids? Like anything there?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah, that's that's a great question, Don. Really important. Um, well, I'll go back first. The I my last day playing basketball at age 50, I brought my whole family to watch me play. So I wanted everybody, I wanted the witnesses there as I knew, you know, consciously deliberately, this is going to be my last day on the court. That's a small thing, but it but but it's to your point, right? Uh, in order to be able to let go of that, I needed to ritualize it in some way. Uh that that made it a thing that that tangibilitated it to use one of my favorite invented words. So that uh So that I could really grasp it more wholly. But I, you know, probably the personal practice I have that is helps me the most is a meditation practice. I mean, I I, you know, you you your podcast listeners won't be able to see it, but you can. In the background, here is my meditation cushion here in my office. And I start every morning just letting my mind relax for 20 minutes. And it really helps enormously with this drive to you know to want to do all those things I want to do, you know, every day. I I practice, uh, I have a practice of letting go. And without that, I don't I don't think I could have done it. You know, and you have to work at it. Kind of what's behind your question, really. You have to work at letting go and create creating space for the uh to to not do the one thing and to fill it with the other things that you will do.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah, that's beautifully said. And you know, I think I didn't know that you meditated, but I did know that you meditated. You know, it's like you just run into people at times of your life and they just seem so grounded. And what what what I would call about uh you is kind of a calming presence, and I think that does come from work and you do have to practice it. And so I'm glad you you name that. I also want to just uh press on something you again said a little bit earlier that I'm thinking about, which is one of the greatest uh things that you love to do in your career was carrying the stories of others so that um as a way to know them uh deeply. And the deeper you could know somebody, uh the more deep the work could be, the more effective you could be in your role. I have found and the premise of this podcast is this idea that the internal work that we do of knowing ourselves and being aware of our our own idiosyncrasies, our you know, our challenges, our our tempers, our you know, our triggers, our whatever it might be, that our ability to be in touch with those things and work through them allow us to show up in this space of leadership, uh in a just in a uh uh a really wonderful way. And I'm just curious how do you know yourself? Like what was are over the years, have you had to work at knowing yourself? I know it's a weird question, but I'm really curious about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah. That's to me, that's um the answer is yes, big time. I've had to to me it's constant work. It's it's not like, oh yeah, and um in 2013, I I spent a solid month getting to know myself. Then I was done, right? I took care of it. To me, it's uh it's constant uh in the sense that you know anytime I encounter a new phenomenon, uh, it's another reflection of what I care about. Uh how I how I respond to it, it's another reflection of who I am, how I care about you know, a political candidate or a movie or a poem is a chance by by your my own reaction to it. It's another reflection of who I am. And um, you know, I've found uh there have been a number of instances, there have been there have been good lessons and hard lessons. You know, the hard lessons you you you you tend to learn more from mistakes than successes, is my experience with life. And certainly I've had my own failures or mistakes or whatever that have taught me deep things. And the openness with which one approaches those things is the mark of character. Um, you figure out how to how to encounter yourself honestly, quickly, so you you account for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

That's really uh awesome. That the idea that we are our ability to be open as to acknowledging our own mistakes is uh the mark of character. Well said. When you as you've uh evolved as a human, have you had uh you know uh strategic counsel in your life? Meaning, do you have you had mentors that have uh have walked alongside you that can be the mirror that you try to be for the CEOs that you've worked with over the years? Is it been a a dual uh uh process where you're in relationship with CEOs to be a presence and you also have sought out others to be that for you?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, yeah, no question about it. I've had uh the benefit in my professional life of uh of two mentors that saw things in me that I didn't see and provided opportunity for me to explore them. And think about that's that's not unlike what we were talking about is our is our role, right? Is to just to help see things in others. And those were such blessings, and you know, critical one in my early years in management consulting when I really the first after a year or so in my first firm, I wasn't really sure it was a good fit. And a senior uh senior partner hired in from the outside, and in the space of about a week, he saw who I was and at, you know, asked me, uh, came to my office. He said, Can I can I spend a minute with you? Um and he then explained to me the practice that he was uh he was getting started and said, I've seen you. You would be really good here. And there'd be a lot that you would learn in the work we're that I'm gonna be doing. We'll work, we work with senior executive teams. You can spend a number of years as a junior consultant, you know, in the back room shoveling data, uh, or you can work with me in the front room uh uh uh with the leadership team and learn in real time. And uh I went, wow, I didn't think anybody saw me. And so off I went. So that was that was a that was a you know, in the work world, but you know, I've always had uh an older wise counselor, the woman who's the the godmother to my children is um you know uh a true wise woman who uh has made it her point to understand me and and my wife and our family, and and it's reciprocal, of course. We understand her and her family, but somebody who's you know uh more than a decade further along has just been, you know, uh answers the questions I didn't know I had. And it's a it's a remarkable I I strongly encourage uh anybody just uh pay attention to older people who seem to have that that knowing look and ask them questions. It can really be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

You don't strike me as somebody with a large ego. And I'm you know, I'm being honest with you, I don't I I don't sense that in you, but has that something that you again worked on to kind of make peace with your own ego? Like I because I I uh the reason I'm asking is because I I feel like the larger the ego, the less receptive people are for honest feedback.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

And and I'm just curious, is uh is that just have you always been able to kind of lead in this more as as more of a peaceful warrior, so to speak, than than somebody with a large ego?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah, that it that really is who I am. It's not like I I was radically different at one point in time and I conquered it, and now I'm whom I now I'm me. That was that was always me. And that that said, I have held leadership roles. You know, I was starting with uh, you know, being president of my junior high school, you know, and uh moving on over the years in school and uh leading, you know, being captain of teams and things like that. So I've aspects of leadership come naturally to me, but I've I've never really been one with a big ego that in it, you know, which is useful for us to define that. I mean, ego, ego says I, right? Says says what I think it goes, uh, and doesn't tend to, you know, the connotation is doesn't ask a lot of questions, does a lot of telling. And uh I've been always been far more interested in the questions. And I find that CEOs, you know, if I look at the ones that I've worked with over the years, they're they're not the they're not the tough guys. Uh, you know, Fortune magazine years ago used to have an annual cover issue on the the toughest CEOs in America. And I always thought that was just so stupid. Uh they somehow they correlated that with results, but I always thought it was temporary. To me, the the three characteristics of leaders that I've worked with are ambition, curiosity, and openness. And um, you know, ambition because you gotta want to accomplish something. And, you know, a lot of times people get people who drive to accomplish things, uh, have a big ego, accomplish a lot, get made CEOs. That's a whole nother story. You know, they didn't discover how how little you get to actually tell everybody what to do because uh they they all have their own opinions. That's another story, but go come back to that in a minute, maybe. But um, the ones that I've worked with, they have ambition. They they really want to accomplish something. Yeah they and it's not personal usually. I mean, yeah, yeah, it's personal in the sense that they want to be able to say what they did, but it's for the organization. And their curiosity is how to do it better, how to get there faster, how to bring more people along, how to how to have deeper engagement and alignment across you know, multiple person organization. Uh, and the openness is is what lets them collect ideas that aren't their own and make the whole better.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Well, I promised you that I would uh ask you a couple questions about CEOs because I'm curious about it. I so one of the things that I've noticed the difference between a CEO of a for-profit company and a CEO of a nonprofit company. I'm gonna make a little bit of a distinction here, only on one area because I don't I really don't know what I I don't know on this, but uh from what I can tell, many for-profit CEOs today are leading well into their 60s and 70s. And as somebody who uh has a landscape scan of the nonprofit world in Maine, so to speak, there's not that many people in their 60s and 70s leading nonprofits. But from a corporate perspective, there are. And I'm just wondering about what you think makes going to the theme of this today's uh episode stepping away so difficult even when they know the transition is approaching. I mean, uh, how much of that struggle is about unfinished work or how much of it is about identity, relevance, making money? What do you think uh from your experience?

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Oh, that's such a good question. You know, it in some ways it goes back to the start of our conversation, Don, and you're asking me, you know, how I was able to step away. I I had to have the something else. My observation is that those who have a hard time, who stay, who stay longer and longer, don't they don't have a what next. And nothing compares in their in their realm of awareness to the job that they currently have, and they don't know what they'll do if if they don't define themselves as the CEO.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

So so that identity piece is really strong.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah, identity and and it's but identity that's wrapped up in the work, right? If I if I don't have this to do in the, you know, come to the office every day, travel to the places I travel, you know, lead board meetings, all this kind of stuff, you know, who am I? That's a very, very hard question for CEOs to answer. I've just gone through this with a a longtime client who, you know, knew he wanted to retire. He he in his, I think it was early to mid-60s. He so before the mandatory retirement age, he knew it was, he knew it was time to go because he felt like he'd accomplished a chunk of work, right? It was a company that was growing uh organically and by acquisition. And he he developed the acquisition engine. You know, how do you what is it if you're going to acquire a bunch of companies and and do it right and have people who join your company feel welcome and contributing? And so it, you know, it's a it's a tough thing to get right. It starts with the selection and goes right through every single process. And he he and his company acquired a number of companies and he'd done it, right? He'd done it enough times and it started to feel like the same thing over and over again. And, you know, ambition, curiosity, and openness, top characteristics of this guy. And he said, I'm gonna take that somewhere else. I don't know what it's gonna be. Let you and I talk, Fred. How about how about we talk on Friday? Let's talk about that. But um, he knew he was he had done that and was ready to go. Some some companies, you know, it'd be interesting to look at the at the examples, you know, there's still more to be done, more to be acquired, or you know, more money to be made, and they don't feel done.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Well, yeah, so I was gonna give you a real something I've been thinking about because I have been aware of it, but as a as a real clear example, just to get your take on it, uh what could we learn when like a former CEO steps away but is also later asked to return, such as like Bob Iger at Disney? You know, obviously the returning leader can offer kind of stability and credibility and experience, but can that return also reinforce a belief that the organization cannot thrive without them? And I know that instinct. You know, I know that instinct. And and and so I'm just curious, like I don't know how close you follow it, but when you see that happen, like let's just say the the the client you just had decides I stepped away, but the board's asking me to come back. I can give it two more years, I can turn that baby around. What what do you think's what do you think's going on there?

SPEAKER_01 37:57

There's the there's variations on that theme. There's there's uh a wonderful book called The Hero's Farewell, written by uh blanket on his name right now, but taught at the Yale School of Organization Management for a number of years. And the notion is, you know, how how does exactly to this question, you know, how how do you decide to leave? Uh and how do you handle it? And he there's a wonderful contrast in the way that I'm gonna date myself with this, the way uh Lee Iacoka left Chrysler way back when, and the way Johnny Carson left the Tonight Show. And uh Lee Iacoka stepped down at mandatory retirement age and within a year was mounting a coup with one of his board members that he had selected to uh maybe it wasn't a year, but uh, you know, a relatively short amount of time, to take over the company and go be back in charge again. Couldn't let go. Nobody could do it as well as as him, but he had to retire. You know, that was the forced retirement. And very there are variations on that where people feel like, you know, nobody can do it as well as I can. And that's that's a huge ego thing. Johnny Carson, on the other hand, you know, picked picked Jay Leno and provided him so many wonderful showcases for his talent while Carson was still the head that let Leno see how much uh see you know, develop a following amongst Johnny Carson's audience, show how could show the audience how much Carson really liked him and thought he was wonderful and laughed at his jokes and you know really appreciated his difference. Um, and Leno took over seamlessly. And Carson went on to the next thing that he wanted to do. So it gets back to the next thing being different and also, you know, how you make it happen. That if the board calls you back, it's one thing. The Iacoka example is sort of a board member who never really thought, you know, Iacoca uh should have had to leave in the first place. But the key issue here is the letting go, I think. How do you how do you let go and acknowledge difference that somebody else will will inevitably do things differently, right? They're gonna come in on day one and they're gonna find something that you did that you thought was was uh essential, and they're gonna say, eh, not so much. Yeah, you have to be ready for that.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah, I um I mean it does bring us right back dead center to the the quote by John Hyder, which is like stepping back and letting go doing less. A good leader is doing isn't somebody who does less, but is being more. And and I think that piece around um action, taking action versus uh being present, you know, carrying the responsibility versus uh uh you know, holding the questions uh without making a move, uh it's something that I imagine I mean I know uh uh from leading organizations that that is a that's why I said the when the cast came off, uh you know, I felt it and I felt like wanting to jump back in. It's such a difficult thing. It's human nature in many ways. When we really love something. That's the other part of this. Like you know, it it's not necessarily like I I if we're given the benefit of the doubt to people who are in these roles and we're and we give them the benefit of the doubt that it isn't a thirst for power and money, but they really, really love uh leading an organization. I mean, to walk away from that is is is tough at any age, you know. Very tough. Um, I want to flip the script for a moment and just give you the role of the mic. And I'm just curious, do you have a question for me on this topic that that you know we can go back and forth on?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

You know, um there's a piece of this that let me uh let me let me do just like you did, let me let me make a statement and then ask a question. To me, there's a fundamental uh belief about people uh and motivation that underlies this this topic that we're exploring of the leaders' need to step back. I love the quote uh from Leo Tzu, the uh from the Tao Tiching, you know, the Chinese philosopher uh from the 300 years before the common era, when the best leaders' work is done, the people say they did it themselves. And I pair that with Mark Twain saying, you know, find a job you love and you'll never work another day in your life. Both of those two people are talking about the same, have the same notion of human nature, which is that, you know, if it's the it's the people, uh it's it's um enabling people to do what they love that is that is a life mission, and leaders, you know, ignore that at their peril, is my feeling. Well, does that make sense to you? Is that is that in sync with your that have a place in your in your sort of philosophical canon?

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, I mean, I really I really love it, and it goes to you know the definition of leadership that you know I've shared a couple different times on the podcast. It comes from Brene Brown, but the idea that a leader is somebody, despite title or position, who sees the potential in others, sees the potential in ideas, but holds themselves accountable to develop that potential. And to develop that idea. And I like that because it goes to that quote that, you know, when the work is done, they believe they've done it themselves because we're developing the potential in others to take these things on. I think that I I'd be, I believe that the journey of leadership, much as in life, is an unfolding of sorts. And I think about me as a young 19, 20, 30-year-old. And you know, I had to unpack this, but I just really I needed to be needed. I mean, that's just the most honest way I can say it. I now listen, it doesn't mean I wasn't good at what I did. I'm not sure I was fully aware of it in the early days. But you know, that need to be needed blinds you a bit. You believe you're doing it for one reason, but you recognize later you've done it for another. And I I can pinpoint why I got into the work itself due to just wanting to fill some some holes and some gaps in my own life that I hadn't filled before I got into the work. And when I mean the work, I mean the work of being in relationship to others. And to do that, well, you have to be in relationship with yourself. And I internally was a mess. So, you know, that on the outside, I was you know, seemingly great or seen as somebody who was effective, but internally I was a mess. And so all that's to say is that I your premise uh holds true for me. And I do think that uh with grace, understanding, curiosity, and openness, that you can get there to much like any human, uh, you know, as the process unfolds, if you are paying attention and are willing to look at things, your successes, your challenges, your mistakes, your your insecurities, your vulnerabilities, you can kind of evolve into uh a human being that others want to be around and know that you're gonna be a cheerleader for them. You know, the one part in the in the meditation that that I really loved as I reread it uh in prep for this, and then on the on the show is that this idea of being more is this idea of our belief in the capacity of the person in front of us. I mean, if there's one thing you can do for the world is to believe in the person in front of you who who who you know need someone to believe in them, even though they could be at the top tier of an organization sometimes. It's a it's a really interesting thing. So anyway, I I'm not sure I fully it went where it went, but anyway, I'll I'll just hit the pause button, see if you want to take it somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

No, I I love that response. Um the um people I'm reminded of um an illustration of that, Don. There was uh a famous moment in sports history that I'll I'll uh garble a little bit, but it was uh women's gymnastics olympics. Bella Caroli was the Czech, uh you know, check Czechborn U.S. coach, women's team. And uh I think it was Carrie Strug, who was uh one of the one of the gymnasts. And for the team to win the gold, she was the last one to go, and she'd sprained her ankle and needed to do the do the vault. And so she's lined up to do it. The commentators are putting all sorts of pressure on her. This makes a difference. And he goes over to her and he whispers in her ear. She goes down the road, she sticks the vault, they win the goal. And people go, My God, what did what did you know what did what did he say? Was you know, interviewing him afterwards? What did what did you say? Was it about technique? Was that don't forget to you know move your feet? And he said, No, you can do it. To your point, right? Yeah, you need somebody who believes in you. Everybody needs that.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And and you picked a piece of sports history I remember as a kid. Yeah, well, uh this time has flown. I can't believe it. I want to just ask you a final question. One of the topic areas that we didn't talk about, uh, in terms of maybe why people don't step back more often, isn't just around well, is fear. And for someone listening who senses that they that it might be time for them to step back, but fears losing their identity and relevance or purpose, like I was and did, where would you encourage them to begin to grapple with that?

SPEAKER_01 49:29

That's huge, huge topic. I mean, fear is fear is such a malleable, powerful thing. It f it it flows like water into any crevice in your in your makeup and uh and makes a space for itself, doesn't it? And also it it it inhabits the unconscious too. One can be more fearful and unaware of it than probably uh any other emotion, I would, I would argue. You know, I don't I think this there's there's no single answer to that, right? It's a it's a way of back to the things we've talked about uh around honesty and around people who can uh help you see parts of yourself you're not seeing. The the container of the conversations with mentors is a huge part of it, um, because very often people who are fearful you know don't don't know the full extent of it or don't know what they're fearful about. So you somebody can help who's in a mentor position can help broach the topic uh in the right kind of way, often indirectly, you know, rather than what are you scared of? Okay, you know, it's uh you know, talk about what whatever the tasks are that that gives helps give voice to the way one deals with fear. But you know, the antidote to fear is usually action of some sort, and sometimes indirectly, you know, just get moving and you you know you you work your way around the fear. About all I can say.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah, that's beautiful. It it reminds me of um action absorbs anxiety and that ability to move uh will get you through through some of that. I also I I won't be able to source who said this, but I've I've returned to it a lot, which is you know that the the opposite of love is not hate, the opposite of love is fear, and that emotion leads to you know things like hate and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Yeah, so I think that's really well said.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, Fred. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

You're so welcome, Don. I'm honored to be asked, as I told you earlier, and it's a delight to come into your chambers here and and talk about the talk about the real stuff that uh that that lights your lights your life these days.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Well, I um thank you for joining me in this space. Thanks for your openness. And if you'll just stay with me for a couple minutes as I close out, I will uh get to say goodbye to you properly at the end. Awesome. Well, let me just uh share with you what I'm taking away from some of the themes that Fred hit on. I think one of the things that came up throughout our conversation was this idea that letting go, even though it can be scary, create space for something new to come in. And our ability to kind of see that as a gift rather than an obstacle to overcome is a huge, it puts us on the path to whatever that next thing is. So we have to create space when we're in times of transition to just trust that something new is going to step forward. It's the unknown of that that's fearful, and that's the reason we don't take that leap. But um, I love that he named that. I love that he said that the openness to our mistakes is the mark of character, and we make it, we make many of them. I mean, I I wrote a whole book on the 15 mistakes I made in the area of youth work, and uh it made me great at the work because I was open to learning from it, and so you know, I love that he named that. I also feel like one of the things that he talked a lot about, and uh it's a short thing I wrote down, which is just basically we have to know ourselves. You have to know thyself. And if you're able to know yourself, your ability to kind of be curious about knowing others is there. If you're scared about owning your own stuff and exploring those things, your ability to build an authentic relationship with somebody else that's on your team or in your corporation or in your nonprofit can many times be uh challenged. And then in terms of the question, two other things I've taken away. In terms of like in terms of his ability to mourn certain transitions, I asked him whether or not he a mentor, somebody that he could turn to in the same way that the CEOs were turning to him. And he said, you know, I've always had somebody at different inflection points of my life. And he really challenged us to make sure that we find someone older. He said, preferably 10 years, that can answer the questions that you didn't know you had. I mean, what a beautiful thing, and what a gift somebody is who can spill that role with their own wisdom to ask the questions that will give you the answers that you didn't even know you had. And then the three characteristics of leadership that he wants us to take away. He mentioned it twice ambition, curiosity, and openness. I can't really add to that list. It's uh on point, and I appreciated his humble answers to many of these questions. So uh grateful for that. As always, I want to leave you, the listener, with two questions for your own reflection. Number one is where in your leadership or life, even, might your greatest contribution be less about answering, offering an answer and more about offering your full presence? Where in your leadership or life might your greatest contribution be less about offering an answer and more about offering your full presence? And two, what quiet form of impact in your life might you be overlooking because it is not immediately visible or measurable? What quiet form of impact in your life might you be overlooking because it is not immediately visible or measurable? In closing today, again, I just want to thank you, Fred, for joining me. It was a real privilege to be uh in touch with you and in a conversation like this with you. So thank you. My thanks as always to Omar for producing this episode. And with about six episodes remaining in this 52-part series, I'm beginning to think more seriously about what might come next. As I prepare to bring this series to a close and turn my attention to the final edits of the book, I find myself wondering whether this podcast should end or continue in a new form. I'm really open to keeping it going because I do get so much energy from it. But I would genuinely value hearing from those of you who've been listening along the way. Are there themes, guests, directions you would like to hear explored? Has this series created something you would like to see continue? There's no formal survey here and no pressure to respond. But if you have a thought, an idea, or a simple instinct about what might come next, I'd be grateful to hear from you. You can reach me at any time at Don, at Carpenter Company Consulting.com. And if you found something meaningful in today's conversation, would you consider sharing this episode with somebody else? I would really appreciate that. Thanks for listening. And always remember, the journey of leadership begins with them.