Lessons from Three Decades in the NFL with Tom Melvin, TE Coach Kansas City Chiefs

Michael welcomes longtime friend and former coach Tom Melvin, current Kansas City Chiefs tight ends coach and three-time Super Bowl champion, to discuss Melvin’s coaching journey from small college football to 14 seasons with Andy Reid in Philadelphia and nearly 14 in Kansas City. Melvin explains how organizational stability, preparation, and managing information overload shape NFL coaching, and why culture fit matters as much as talent, including the value of promoting from within. He describes coaching elite players by setting boundaries rather than scripts, raising standards daily, and embracing personality. The conversation covers habits behind championship success, shared struggle in training camp, responding to adversity, continual innovation in a cyclical game, lessons learned about leadership and humility, sacrifices like family time, and advice for aspiring coaches to love coaching football, not the title.

Timstamps:
00:24  Welcome
01:25  Tom Melvin Coaching Journey
02:42  Stability Under Andy Reid
04:18  Formative Coaching Lessons
05:57  NFL Coaching Reality
08:59  Culture and Staff Chemistry
11:11  Talent Versus Culture Fit
13:32  Building Fit Through Development
16:24  Football Brotherhood and Shared Struggle
18:39  Coaching Greatness
23:36  Evolving Standards for Elite Players
26:35  Habits Behind Chiefs Success
30:42  Preparation and Sustained Excellence
32:42  Never Get Complacent
34:26  Habits Over Outcomes
36:04  Research Before Innovation
36:49  Responding To Adversity
39:58  Day Better Mindset
41:29  Sustaining A Coaching Career
42:58  Football Keeps Evolving
45:33  Lessons From Coaching Mistakes
47:09  Regrets And Family Time
48:02  Super Bowl Moment
49:21  Favorite Players And Leaders
54:08  Coaching Career Advice
55:40  Final Thanks

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Top Voice Podcast. Where each week I sit down with leading voices in business leadership and transformation to unpack the issues that matter most. Together, we explore fresh insights, bold ideas, and real-world stories from people shaping how we think about change, culture, and what's possible. Hello, and welcome to the Top Voice podcast. We have a very, very special guest today, not just because of his accomplishments, but because we've known each other for the better part of 30 years, and he used to be my coach, uh, Tom, Tom Melvin, current tight ends coach for the Kansas City Chiefs, three-time Super Bowl champion, uh friend, mentor, uh, and the guy who saw me through the last years of my own playing career. And Tom, it's great to have you here. I'm excited to talk about all things football, leadership, culture, sports, all of the above. I just so so happy to have you join us.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Mike, thanks for having me. I'm really uh excited to do this. I'm I'm proud of where you've come from, from where you came in to where you are now, and and you know, your journey through life here. And you're certainly doing a good job at it. So I commend you for that. That's part of the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, no, I no, I really, this is this is just a lot of fun on so many levels. Uh so, Tom, uh you've been with the Chiefs for several years now, but why don't you can you just walk us through your coaching journey? You coached me at Occidental from 1991 to 95, and a lot has transpired since then. Uh, give us your your arc in the last 30 years or so.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Uh well, I started out uh thinking that I was going to be um just a coach at whatever level. You know, I got my teaching credential uh at San Francisco State. I got a master's at Northern Arizona after I was a graduate assistant. Uh and then I coached in uh Division II at UC Santa Barbara and then went to Occidental. So I was in small college football. Uh and uh throughout that time, though, I stayed in touch with my position coach in college, who was uh Andy Reid. So when he got hired in Philly, he called me up and asked me to come with him. And I was with him for 14 seasons in Philadelphia, and now we're going on our 14th uh season here in Kansas City.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, it what's it's an incredible run. And we've talked about this many times. Your the stability that you've experienced and enjoyed as an assistant coach in the NFL is it's rare, it doesn't happen to a lot of people. Um what what do you what give us a kind of a glimpse and behind the curtain of life as an NFL coach and particularly your journey going from one team to another with such stability?

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Well, any stable organization starts from the top, and that's you know, Andy has always been uh one of those rare individuals that understands human nature, how to treat people, uh, how to get the most out of people. And I think that would be probably the the the biggest part of that, that that he has been one that has been able to uh go into whatever organization he was at, uh, make them better, make them stride, strive to be uh better than they were before. And then the stability part comes in obviously with being successful. So uh I am one of the few in the NFL that's ever only had two jobs and 30 years of coaching. So uh that's I'm very, very fortunate for that. And you know, a lot has to do with you know, my position coach, Andy Reid, and being able to stay with him for this long. So yeah, the other part of that is I better know what I'm doing, otherwise, you know, he's gonna we'll be friends, but he's gonna miss me.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

That's right. So let's let's let's talk about that piece of it because you know, I you were my offensive coordinator way back when, and you've been on the on the side of column plays and designing offenses. And I know you were an offensive quality control, I think, coordinator was your first job in Philly and now up to position coach. When you look back over your career, how do you what what experiences have been most formative to you and turned you into the coach that you are today?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Well, I think uh the when I look back at it, the biggest uh hurdle that I ever had to endure or face was when I left uh northern Arizona where I was a graduate assistant um and went to UC Santa Barbara, that was the first time I was there with nobody that I had worked with before. I was completely on my own. And now, you know, having all the crutches of coaches uh on the staff that have been around me, but I had learned from them and could lean on, now I don't have that anymore. So going through the trials and tribulations that you go through, making decisions and doing things that you look back on and go, you know what, I better learn from this and not do that one again. Yeah. And, you know, but you got to be smart enough about that. And, you know, fortunately, I had people I could call and kind of bounce things off them before I went through them or after the problems occurred, you know, how to get back out of the hole that I had dug. And, you know, I the biggest thing, you know, getting out on your own and doing it and learning. So that that that's kind of uh one of those things. Don't be afraid to to try something, but you better have a good foundation behind it and reasoning for it. And uh I've learned over the years that I I have more and more information backing my change in doing something before I do it than I did early on.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah. It it's it's interesting because uh obviously we've you've been in the world of competitive sports for a lot longer, but having spent some time there myself, a lot of people don't realize that being an NFL coach is a job. And it's not just during the season, it's it's all year, and it's a job that comes with relationships and challenges. And but what do you think maybe makes uh a life in the NFL as a career different than any other job? And what makes it the same?

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Well, to begin with, it's still, you know, football is football, it's still 100 yards long, 53 yards across. So that part of it's the same. You got 11 on 11. So there are a lot of similarities there. Um, players are players, they're like dealing with your kids and then going, and now they just get a little bit bigger and a little bit faster and have a little bit bigger bank account and those kind of things, but they're dealing with life outside of the building just like everybody else was. So that part of it is just being, you know, a teacher and and dealing with uh uh interacting with with other people in that respect. The part of the NFL that gets you is that the uh enormity of the um consequences for what you do. So the time that I spent that I spend uh prepping myself to go into a one-hour meeting uh is you know immense. There's so much I have to deal with. And now with the advent of of computers and and having uh more storage space, when I got into the league, we could only uh put the data in on three games that you would break down and then they would wipe it clean to go to the next three. Wow. And today I have film on the last 20 years of football that I could get to uh at a click of a button. So there's more information available. But on the other part, then you have to deal with that. So you have to learn, you know, to to break through the noise and what's important, and uh, but it's time consuming, however, you look at it. That that just takes a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah. And I'm I'm hearing words that are, you know, if you're if you're not an NFL coach or a coach and listening to this podcast, and you just have a let's call them a regular job, I'm hearing words like preparation. I'm hearing words like investment in time, I'm hearing in words like expectations. And you mentioned at the beginning of this your relationship with Andy. I mean, those are those are parts of any job that that you go through all the time. It's at the end of the day, it's a group of people trying to accomplish a goal. Maybe it's just the Super Bowl, which is a different type of goal.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Well, certainly. It's just it's just on a bigger scale, you know. I as a coaching you guys and coaching the guys that I have now, uh, it's no different. You're you have the same, not the same issues, but the you're you're you know, kids and we're kids. Uh but you you're gonna have the human nature, and I think that's the part that you know, our scouts, when they go out and they look at people, they they come back with stats on them and you know how big and fast and how much they can jump, and then but the part of it that that that's the art form that isn't the science is just being able to deal with the human being and uh projecting on how they're going to fit in your organization. I think that if nothing else, that uh something that Andy Reid is is spectacular at is being able to blend different personalities from uh uh front office, scouting, uh you know, our equipment staff, players, coaches, all of those people together, and finding the ones that fit in. And they're they're not similar personalities. You're juggling people.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Um, but one of the things that when I first got in the league, uh um one of my office mates I shared with Pat Schirmer, who was uh at that time the tight end coach, he had come from Stanford, and that was his first NFL job. And Pat told me something uh, you know, during during our early years there, and he goes, you know, as an assistant coach, it's our job to get along. The the drama, you know, he hired us, it's our job to get along, it's not the headman's job to put out fires. So that was something that I've always uh took to heart on that one. That you know, the headman's the one that brought us in here. So we better find a way to to to uh achieve our goal and not undermine ourselves uh because our egos or what our thought process was. We have to he brought us here. We better mend ourselves and and get ourselves together working for the common goal.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah. Uh I love that. And I think I tell people, I want to talk about coaching players in a minute, but I want to go back because you're you're talking about culture and the organization, the culture that gets set by the organization. You hear that word a lot. I deal with it with my clients all the time. Um, and I know you've coached some players that were tremendous players, but maybe didn't fit the culture. You, I'm I'm not gonna make you name names. I think we can all maybe think of some ideas, but how do you maybe what's been the arc of that experience between cultural fit versus talent and and and what's the balance there? Because I've heard people say, hey, if you're good enough, we can deal with it. It's the point at which you stop being productive, where if you're a culture killer, maybe we let you go. How do you guys work through that as a staff and as an organization?

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Well, there in lies the the balancing act there. And uh there are a lot of great players that couldn't play for us, just that they don't have a fit. Not that they're uh a bad personality, not that they're a bad fit for somebody else, just with what we're doing, that's not uh they're not the ones that are gonna excel here and work. So that that's the hard part is finding people that are going to be able to fit your locker room, fit the culture, uh, have good chemistry with everybody else. But it and the other part of that is because this is a season by season, when you read your locker room and when you have a good enough leadership for it, there are times you can bring people in that may not be able to play here for five years, but you can get a year out of them.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Because they'll be able to come in, the locker room can handle it, uh, and you can still uh you know succeed with it. Now, it may not be a long term, but you can utilize their talent and and they can you know fit in and be able to uh deal with the the culture here for a year basis, that kind of thing. So that's it's a hard thing to do, but that that's one of those things that when you really uh excel sometimes, you're able to do that. You know, you're you're just taking a a whirl on somebody here, and yeah, most of the times they work out and you know they don't always.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah. Is that is that uh is that an explicit definition that you all have about what's the the makeup of a person, what kind of values they have, or or it, or is that more of a fit and feel thing that you can just kind of tell based on your organization or the leaders that you have? How does that work?

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Well, there's a lot of it. I I you know when you you sent me those questions, I I was thinking um about how to get to that point. And uh we're in we're right now we're in uh free agency, you know, we're gonna start bringing that in, as opposed to just rookies. And that's the same thing in building our coaching staff. You look at Andy, we'll hire his staff, and then when somebody leaves up top, he brings people up from in the organization, promotes from within. So very seldom do you bring somebody in at a mid-level, you're always bringing them, making them work through. And those guys that come in, when they're at the lower levels, you figure out okay, he's not gonna work out. Yeah, so you figure it out sooner that way by by promoting from within, uh, and guys that fit, and then they keep moving themselves up, and that way you stay more stable as well when you do it that way, as opposed to somebody uh coming in like an offensive coordinator coming in uh who's coordinated before. Uh, they're you know, they have their own ways, and that's the same thing you have with with free agents over rookies. You know, rookies come in and it's a it's a clean slate. It's like it's not college anymore, you know. This is the way we're gonna do it, like freshman when you came in, you know, you were the top dog in high school, and now all of a sudden you're back down to being the guy that uh yeah, you know, carries the pads out to practice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So that kind of moving up from within that way, and you kind of weed that thing out as you go. If you're able to do that from uh the lower level, when you when you hire the superstar, you you sign the the high priced uh um free agent, you know you're getting somebody that's already set in their way somewhat. And then you're dealing with are they gonna be able to do it our way? Are they gonna be able to uh you know completely buy into what we're doing? Are they still gonna resist? And then that's when that's when the things start to get frayed a little bit there. And again, it doesn't make them a bad person, it doesn't make them a bad player, it just means the fit isn't there, and that's there's nothing wrong with not being the right fit.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

I I spend a lot of time in companies of all kinds telling these exact stories from a different angle. And I think, you know, what the great thing about football, we'll keep talking more about it. I I tell people all the time every every great thing I've learned about being a leader and a teammate came from playing football. I mean, full stop. It it starts there because you understand how it all works together. And everything I've learned about designing cultures also started with that. And you're describing in today's modern NFL, there's a lot of good players, and it's not about talent because there's a lot of talent out there. It's about can you can you be a team? And that's a I think you use the word, that's where the art comes in of figuring this all out.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Well, that's that's a great uh thought there because obviously you started Dale Weedoff was phenomenal at doing that, yeah. Putting people from all over, you know, he in in you know, when you got to Occidental, uh he was doing some things diversity-wise that that hadn't been done before. And he was able to uh get guys, you know. I I um one of your teammates, uh uh PJ Rivera, I talked to him a number of times, and he goes, that changed my life when I came there because I saw something that was different than what I had, and I could either adapt, which is the best thing in my life, or I could leave and go back to my comfort zone. So that's uh I think personally that's why football is one of the greatest sports ever. That you just and we talk about it's a lifetime fraternity, it doesn't matter, it may be 30 years, you know, since we talked, but we're right back into it, and you fit right back in uh to that same friendship that that we had had, and and you know, guys will do anything for you. Uh, and I'm sure you know you do the same. That's just that's the way it is. You you you're lifetime friends, and it uh it doesn't go away.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Well that one of the things I share, absolutely, one of the things I share with my clients is the value of this experience, and I try to get my clients to go through it, is the value of shared struggle. And uh what what what people don't understand, and it's why people in the military next to next to playing football, you know, I spent a lot of time working with the military after I left Occidental. And it's it there is a bonding that only happens through the pursuit of a shared goal that requires physical, literal blood, sweat, and tears to make those things happen. And it's incredibly formative.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah, that's you know, the the old adage that there's no, you know, there's there's no diversity or there's no division in a foxhole.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

You know, and they definitely, you know, we've taken the combat part of it out of our uh lexicon coaching in football because it it clearly is not is not combat, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Right, but it's as close as many people would ever get to that kind of an experience. So uh so let's you you mentioned a little bit, and I want to talk about talent. And you you have had the pleasure of coaching for his entire career, uh, who you know, a guy who everybody knows will be an unquestionable first ballot Hall of Famer, and is in the conversation probably next to Tony Gonzalez as the greatest tight end of all time, and that's Travis Kelsey. Um clearly you you hit a home run with the selection of Travis, but he's come a long way as a player, and and and some of that is a measure of talent, and some of that's a measure of coaching and circumstance. But what what's it like to coach one of the greats? And maybe when you say that, what's it what separates the greatest of all time from somebody who just kind of gets the job done?

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Well, there's you know, when you you talk about your you're um checking all the boxes, you know, and very few people truly check all the boxes. So that's kind of uh you know where Travis is, that he that he's got every value physically and mentally that uh you would look for. Um but again, as I said, it it's hard to quantify. So you can't just look at tape and say that's the guy that's gonna be the greatest of all times. You can't just uh you know try and uh project that, you know. I think Tom Brady's a phenomenal example of that. That yeah, that he willed himself to that. Yeah, you know, you he said, Hey, you know, a six-round draft horse. Well, I, you know, I saw you at the combine, and that's where you belonged. Right. I mean, because that's where you were physically, but he used that to go ahead and motivate himself and to make him the best and to and to prove everybody that hey, I can be the best here. I and that's not where he started, but that's where he ended. So yeah, uh, whatever motivates each each person, and it's different for everybody, and it's their life journey, those are the things that are going to help them make those decisions and push themselves and set the bar higher. And and that's kind of as a coach, you kind of have to understand their background as far as how they're going to react to different ways that you're going to present things, how do they learn? Um, how are you going to react to when they make a uh mistake? Um, how are you gonna deal with uh success with them and those kind of things? So all of those things fit in, and it's kind of it's it's a constant adjustment uh as a teacher, uh, dealing with anybody, and that you know, not just Travis, but it's with everybody that you deal with. And you know, Travis has gone through a lot of I would say growing, but not necessarily. I mean, he's the same knucklehead he was when we got it, and that's the beauty of it. And he needs to be. If he gets rid of that, but you know, if he if he's not gonna be that guy, and you know, Coach Reed always, you know, tells our guys uh before a game, he goes, hey, let your personality show. Yeah, that that that's that's you, that's the individual part. You know, we're all gonna wear a uniform and look the same, but but autograph your performance by what you do and let your personality go. And that's you know, see he's he's a big, as Taylor said, he's a big ex. Exclamation point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Well, I I remember hearing an interview with Jerry Rice um years after he retired. And I remember him saying, I wish I had had more fun. And obviously, there's no debating. He's he's I I you know, I know we can talk about Tom Brady as the greatest of all time. There's no question who's the greatest wide receiver of all time. And it's a guy named Jerry Rice. And that was what was required. And looking back, I think there's no doubt that Travis has a lot of fun. But at the same time, I know you've talked, he's a guy that wants to be coached. And is is that an attribute of great players? They still, no matter how much success they have, they want to continue to be coached and coached hard.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

No question. There's the there is never a time where you have an athlete that doesn't need to have the bar higher than where he thinks it is or where he's at.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

And once you stop doing that, then that's that then you're not useful anymore. So nobody's arrived ever. It's always you've been there. So you've always got to push them, you always got to make them go further than where they're at. And the greatest of the greatest, you still have to set something higher than where they're at. It's not just and then they just go through the motions.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

And then they're not great, you know, they're they're mortal at that point.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

So you you can't back off, and you can't. Those one of the things that you you always have to challenge everybody every day on what you're doing and make them go further than uh where they walked in that day.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Uh so you know Aiden, and you know uh my journey as a player. Uh, and I think you've maybe seen maybe some of his tape and highlight. He's a he's a better player than I ever was at 17. He does things that I couldn't imagine. And and as his dad, but also as his coach, I've had to change the things I coach him on because I can't, he makes plays that I could never have made. And I'm just like, wow, how'd how'd you do that? And so I've shifted the things I coach him on. How how do you do that as a coach now? I mean, again, you're coaching probably the greatest of all time. What's how do you shift the things you talk about, the the way you set standards, the the expectations, maybe the areas I like for Aiden, I do a little bit more like mental preparation. So so how does that how does that work for you? What do you how do you shift what you're coaching on as the player develops?

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Well, I mean, the way I the the lesson plan that that Travis has now is much different than it was 12 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago. So you always have to deal with where he's at now. And what I do with it, there's you know, you make jokes about it that I will coach Travis early in the meeting on stuff, and I tell the other guys in the room, none of the other guys are gonna do this. So I'll tell you how you're gonna do handle this because he can. Right. And you know, there's a lot of things that he does that it's not necessarily, it's not coaching, that's just him. He can see it, he can put it into use, he'll do things, he'll come back and I go, What'd you do that for? And he said, Well, this is what I saw. And I'm like, damn, that's pretty that's pretty good. Yeah, yeah. Right. You can do one of two things as a coach, either do it the way I told you to, or all right, well, let me give you where uh the parameters are. And we talk about you know making a route adjustment. I go, look, this is your real estate. You got another route over here that you can't you can't go over there, even though that's open green grass, right? That's not yours. So now you're uh it's kind of switched to where you're giving them to where you're gonna do it this way to where, all right, here are your boundaries that you have to work within. Yeah, so it adjusts that way. Uh and because it could handle it as opposed to early on, it could not.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah, yeah. Uh and it's uh I wanna I want to talk about. I mean, certainly there's there's many great players in your organization, current and past, and you've had to sustain that over time. And you know, people only see the the Sundays, they don't see all the other days of the week. And I want to talk about that before I do. Uh, my daughter would be remiss to say, are you gonna get an invitation to the wedding? Because that's the thing she wants to know about the most, of course.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Well, I had to sign an N NDA, so that we're not I know, I'm just teasing you. Yeah, yeah. She's yeah, well, my daughter's already asked that question too.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. So, so let's talk about what happens to make success possible. Because again, you know, people see Pat and the things that he does, they see Trav, they see these moments that are unscripted, and they don't realize that what is required to make those moments possible. How how do how do you think about the season? How do you think about the week? How do you think about the year and what goes into building the habits that form success for you guys?

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Well, they're obviously starting uh once they come in the building, the amount of work that that uh takes place before you get to February starts in April. So each team is a new entity. You're gonna start with 90 guys in April after the draft, and your free agents come in, uh, and and you work that together and you go on that journey. So the team we had five years ago, you know, each of those Super Bowl teams were completely different as far as personnel, personality, uh, how things worked, how how we were going to deal with, and and some of the practices were adjusted depending on where they were. Do we have an older team? Do you have a young team? Uh, you know, those kind of things. Is it uh really cold outside? Do we have to go inside on the turf? You're constantly adjusting. So there's never a plan that you make uh in February and March, what we're doing right now, that is set in stone all the way through. But you have to have that foundation. What do we want to be known for? How are we gonna go uh go about doing it? And as you go, you make your your micro adjustments as you're going through it. Uh and then, but keep the foundation. And that that's the the time you put in now is important to put the foundation in. We talk about what what training camp does for us. We're one of the few teams that still go away uh for training camp. And you say about you know that that liked experience that everybody goes through, uh, you know, a tough physical thing, and that's that's kind of the the idea. We go up to um you know uh Missouri Western University, uh, live in the dorm. You know, I've been living in the dorms over a year of my life, you know, going up there for a month every year. Yeah, you know, there's cinder block dorm rooms the same way, you know. But you you go through that when you go through it, you're you're you're learning things of what you can and can't do, and you you know, guys lean on each other, and and uh you start to get the uh that part about I'm not gonna let down you know my teammates, so I'm gonna put more time into this. So that's the culture that they have to buy into. And it's not you can't force it on somebody. It's you know, you can't force your kids to go go sit in your room and do two hours of homework. Yeah, you know, you gotta they to get some out of it, they you gotta be motivated for them to, hey, I like this, so I want to do it, and I'm gonna put more time into it. And the better you are, the more time you put into it. And some some will take it up and put the extra time in, and some will put in enough time. But the greats of the greats are the ones that are just constantly, they can't they don't have enough time to do it, and they just push themselves and keep keep putting in more time and more time and more time uh off the field, off of practice, and that's you you you'll see Travis between periods when you know you you go, all right. Well, this is a defensive period, so the offensive guys are scouting. Well, Travis over on the other field working on his route breaks, you know, he's doing that footwork, he's doing that the mental things, how to do the and so that's how he's spending extra time. And we try and you know, tell the rookies hey, I got if I got a plant break on this, you better do it 50 times when you go home, not just come out here because I could only give you two reps at it. Right. That better not be the only time you worked on it.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, it's it's uh one of the things that people that maybe are not in the sports world, but this happens in business all the time, is yeah, the amount of preparation is so asymmetrically large compared to the window of performance, meaning you're gonna practice this a thousand times and maybe do it once in real life. And and and I think one of the things that you know, I I still coach high school and so uh, you know, Aiden's there, but I think a lot of kids struggle with the idea that, oh, I don't just get to show up and do the great thing. It's like, no, the you've got to do it a hundred times when nobody's paying attention. And that that tends to be where a lot of kids, I think, particularly nowadays, I don't want to sound like an old grumpy guy who talks about the way things were, but I think it is a struggle. Does that still happen in the NFL that people are just doing it? Seems like no one in the NFL would ever do the minimum.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

They're the same kids that you deal with. Yeah, I mean, that's it. They're they're just because they're here, some guys don't last as long in the league because they they don't do that part of it, you know. They they're up there, their ability puts them there, but the sustainability isn't there because you have to put in that you have to keep putting it in. Just because you made it, you've never made it. And that you talked about the great players wanting to be coached, you haven't made it. When you're done, you could start talking about it. And that's kind of uh, you know, the things about you know, winning or or records and those kind of things. That that's the byproduct of what you're doing. So we don't, you know, you you talk about, yeah, we want to be successful, it's all about how to get there. And as Trav would say, is it you know the records are great, but that's a byproduct of what I did. And I'll worry about that later after the season, after I'm retired. That'll all come. But right now in the journey, I'm trying to to better myself in whatever I'm doing. So you can't rest on your laurels, and that's and then you know, high school, college, and in pros, you have people that are at, you know, doing the same thing. So yeah, it's human nature now how you can motivate those guys, what are gonna, you know, which guys are gonna take it uh to heart on that. I think a great example of that was Michael Vick when we got Michael in uh Philadelphia, you know, when he came out of prison and Andy brought him in. And uh, you know, we had a uh couple, you know, OTA practices with him, and all of a sudden he goes, you know what? I physically can't be the guy I was, so maybe I need to do something else. And it was like an epiphany to him. He goes, Wow, there's so much more of this game that fascinates me. And he got better and better at that, and I was just it was great to see.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

That that's the that's the big story about Randall Cunningham and that his, you know, he just got elected to the Hall of Fame. And you know, he was a different guy in Minnesota than he was in Philadelphia because he couldn't do the same things and and he had to learn a new set of skills. And it's such a great reminder. I I talk to my clients, I talk to people about this all the time, which is you know, just because you're great at something doesn't mean you can't get better and or learn something new. And and you know, I I work with a lot of athletes that are they're great and talented in one way, and they just they just keep leaning on that experience. And at some point, you're gonna meet someone who's just as fast and just as big, and they've got a different skill set, and all of a sudden you better learn how to adjust.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Sure. And you know, in the you know, obviously the great ones are never satisfied. And I think that's that's the thing you got to look at. Don't get complacent because that's when you get bypassed.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah. And you know, you've talked about the sort of the inputs. I one of the things I talk a lot about with people that are trying to change is every look, everyone wants to win the Super Bowl. 32 teams show up every year with the same goal, but not every team builds the same habits that lead to a Super Bowl winning experience. And there's a lot of other things that go on, you got to stay healthy, you gotta, you know, all these sorts of things. But in organizations, it's the same. You you have to build the habits and structures that lead to success and don't just focus on the end state because you you you you don't get to control all that every day, you get to control how good is practice today.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Sure. And then and you know, it it and and the journey is the the best part of it. Right. Because it's not gonna go as planned. And how you deal with the adversity when when it comes, and that's just part of life. And uh you know, the you know, looking at Seattle and how they went through the season this year, you know, things, you know, you can say, well, they kind of fell in place. Well, they made them fell in place, right? They they they they were in a position to take advantage of it when they had uh a holding call against the other team as opposed to them, you know. Right. Are you able to are you able to take advantage of opportunity when it presents itself? Yeah, and it's not just then uh that you could do that, you had to prep for it and be able to go with it. So that's you know, always getting better at what you do, never being satisfied. Those are kind of some of the things, and that's everybody, you know. Everybody, uh you know, Andy challenges our uh equipment managers the same way. It's you know, yeah, we're not just doing it the same way you did 10 years ago here. Yeah, everything's new and changing, and but the the biggest thing about change that that Andy always said, he goes, Look, I I like innovation and I like change and I like to do those things, but you better put a lot of research into it before you do it. Yeah, and so that you know that's the background part. Before you present it, you better have uh the answers to all the problems that you can uh perceive that would be able to come up.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Sorry again.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah, I don't know. We're having some kind of issue today, but that's okay. We'll work that out in editing. So having having all the answers as we go. And and so let's talk about let's talk about we've been talking a lot about the habits of success, but let's talk about what happens when things don't go your way. And look, you you you guys have been on an unprecedented run uh that most teams, any team, I don't think it's been replicated, maybe the Patriots is close uh three Super Bowls in the last five years, and yet this year didn't go the way you wanted it to, and you didn't have the kind of success. Uh and so how does the team deal with that? How do you deal with that? How does the organization take a pause after such a big run of success? And they say, Okay, do we need to lick our wounds, change anything? Does the formula change? How do you how do you face that moment?

SPEAKER_03 37:32

I think you need to have the same conversation with yourself, whether you won the Super Bowl or you didn't make the playoffs. That's the same thing about don't be complacent. Just because we won the Super Bowl three years ago doesn't mean we're gonna have a chance to do it. I mean, so you better always ask those questions, and not only when things don't go your way, because that's when you get into you get complacent and all of a sudden you don't have their answers. The players don't respond to adversity as it comes up, which you know adversity is gonna come, you don't know how it's going to present itself, but it's gonna be there. So, yeah, not you know, the the big thing is not being mad when that happens. Okay, we get a holding call and a big play. Now, what are we gonna do? It's second down and 20. How are we gonna respond to that? So look, you know, get your mind right. And uh some teams, you know, again, that's the teams that can handle it. Um, and then some won't respond right. And it may only be for a week, it may only be for a series, but how you deal with adversity has a lot more to do with success, I think, than just being on a roll, things go your way all the time. Uh, you have to fail. Yeah, no question that you have to fail. You know, it you know, baseball players are the best example of that. Yeah, greatest in the world is you know, 30%.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Right, right. Uh you mentioned Dale, uh Dale Weedoff, uh, my head coach, your head coach when you were there on staff, our dear friend to this day. I talk to him all the time. He said one of the he's given me so much good advice. Uh, I really I think I stopped counting along the way, but he said one time, you're never as good as you seem, you're never as good as you think when you're winning, and it's never as bad as it seems when you're losing. And I think that that's always stuck with me because I think what you're saying is your process should be the same, and your willingness to face the moment should be the same. And sometimes, sometimes it works, sometimes other things happen, and you've got to face that adversity either way.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

Yeah, that's that you're not gonna roll through life and be lucky and everything goes your way. I mean, that's just not life. So it's not that hey, you know, I I'm snake bit and you know, I just uh, you know, life doesn't like me. I've been dealt the wrong cards. It's you're being dealt cards, deal with the the hand you have. Yeah, that's that's all you can do each day when you wake up. Well, where am I? All right, well, let me get better today. Let me deal with the issues I have in front of me and and try and uh address those. And I may not be able to solve it today, it may take me a month or a year, but as long as you're chipping away at it, are you a day better? And that's always, you know, we have guys that are at rehab, and it's like, are you a day better? You know, that's the big thing. You know, it's I got a long time, got an ACL, and come back from it. It's a well, you better today than you were yesterday. That's what you can look forward to.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

So yeah, and aggressive. It it's it's uh, I always say this that that progress is directional, it's not absolute. I I I can only take the steps I have in front of me. And again, I think football is is such a great place to test your ability to bounce back from adversity and failure. You mentioned it's necessary, it's actually how we learn that our our brains need to fail in order to make mistakes, making mistakes in order to learn, because it means I have something I have to pay attention to. And I always tell people that, you know, I've I haven't called plays at the level you have, but one of the things I love about calling plays in a game is you start out with an idea of what you want to do, and then reality presents itself and it's and it's the chess match of well, maybe, maybe this. What about that? Can I win in this moment? And that's that's why I still love coaching, is because it's just such a great competitive outlook, out outlet. How how has that, you know, again, you've been in the league for a long time. Where where are you at? You haven't burnt out yet. How how are you still sustaining yourself after a pretty high pressure career across, you know, I guess three decades?

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Well, I have uh one of my best friends from uh high school graduated from Stanford, uh, got into commercial real estate, and at uh 45 years old, he retired. And before our first Super Bowl, he was talking with me and he goes, Man, I just envy you. And I'm looking at him, you retired at 45. Yeah, and he goes, Yeah, he goes, Yeah, I'm great at what I do. I don't like it. I'm great at it. Yeah, but you're doing what you love to do. Now I ended up here. I was I love coaching, I love working, and it doesn't matter what level it was gonna be at. That's I I've got to this point and I was fortunate, but the goal was to be better, be the best at what I'm doing, and what happens, it's like you know, with with the records, yeah, it'll come, and that's you know, kind of the way I've lived my life. It's still fun and it's definitely still challenging. So those are the things that keep me in it. And when it gets to the point where it becomes work, then that's the time to retire.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about maybe we'll start to kind of wrap up with a few things about your journey and maybe what you've what you've learned. Um, you mentioned this at the beginning, but how is football different now than when you started coaching?

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Uh actually, I was listening to Pat Korw Kerwin on my my ride home today, and Pat was talking about how Bill Belichick would go and look at what offenses were doing 10 years ago. Football is cyclical. Things go back to it's still blocking and tackling. Yeah, what you're doing with it, I mean, definitely the skill sets, the level now athletically is different than it was 10, 20 years ago. So those things come into come into effect on what you're doing. But the game is still the same game, and you still want to roll things through. So that's one of the you better keep learning, you better keep innovating, or you go back and you take something that used to be done, defenses have changed. All of a sudden, now they're not prepared to deal with what was happening 20 years ago. And that's the same thing on defense. Every time some you know, big innovation on offense, the defense. Defense, then they respond and they come up with something to stop it. And if you don't change, you then again won't be able to succeed against the same thing you thought that was good four years ago, that all of a sudden uh it no longer uh works. So you have to keep keep moving. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's new, it's new now, but it you know, it's still blocking it at the end of the day. You still have to go out and execute whatever it is you choose to do.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

And the chess matches what you do.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Yeah. I I saw a clip of um, I I think it was Shanahan. Maybe it was the playoff, one of the playoff games, and uh the Niners ran a play and they showed a clip and they had run it six years before. They they hadn't run that play in six years, but it's a play exactly the same play. Six years later, running the same thing, maybe a little bit of window dressing. And so I think to your point, the finding ways to stay creative, finding ways to attack at different angles. Um, yeah, it it's funny. I mean, obviously, I was telling Aiden one time, I don't know if I told you this, but uh everything's out of the shotgun now. And I remember our offense, and I told Aiden one day, you know, I've never taken a snap uh out of the shotgun. And he turned to me and he goes, You know, I've never taken a snap from under center. And I sort of laughed about the difference. Of course, he has now, but you know, it's uh I guess things do go in waves. What what is uh when you look back at yourself maybe at the beginning of your career, and the coach you were then and the coach you are now, what what's the what's the biggest difference and maybe what's the biggest thing that you've learned along the way?

SPEAKER_03 45:43

Uh I don't have all the answers, and I still don't. So lean on the people around you, understand what works, what doesn't, and if it doesn't work, you don't just yell louder. That was, you know, as an early coach, that was the way to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

I I remember some of those moments.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

So uh there might have been a clipboard or two that flew somewhere, uh, but you know, that's okay. We all grow, it's okay, we're still here.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Absolutely, and but that's being perceptive enough to figure it out, or you know, when you in your journey did you learn that lesson, you're better since that point. But that's the the biggest thing is, you know, I know that I don't know everything, and I still don't, and I'm still learning from anybody, and uh it doesn't matter what level it is, football is football, so I can get it. You know, you could watch something on tape a high school play and then just go, ooh, you know, that might work here.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

So yeah, well, we've stolen several plays from you, and I recall all of our RPO game was built off of what you did, and it actually turns out to be Aiden's he's he's really pretty good at it, so that's been fun. Uh, we were at a camp the other or at a at a college the other day, and he was on the whiteboard and he he he turned around very proudly and he goes, We took this play from the Chiefs, and he kind of looked at the coaches like like you know, he's gonna he's you know, he has some street cred. Um, do you have any do you have any regrets in your career, things you wish you could have done differently, or things that maybe you wish you could do over?

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Uh that's a good question. Um, you know, I think uh being in the NFL, the the the hard thing is the the time away from your family. Uh I'm not sure it could be different. Um but that I feel badly that I didn't have that much time with them.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah, yeah. I saw that interview with Mike McDonald, and they were talking about his 30 minutes a week with his son or something. And yeah, again, I mean it's the it's the sacrifices for success that I think people don't always appreciate what it takes to be at that level and and the things that you but uh maybe for everyone who doesn't know, then what was it like to win your first Super Bowl?

SPEAKER_03 48:04

Well, it was kind of you know, the irony was growing up in San Francisco, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

You were nine. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

We had that conversation, yeah. Yeah. I went to school with Leo Namalini's son, and you know, he was uh all pro and hall of famer. Yeah, uh, so I was a 49er fan through and through. All my friends are that way, so uh to beat them was a little surreal in that respect. Uh you looked at that, you know, that whole two-week period, it was all about focusing on it's a game, it's still the same game that we started the season with that we did play five years ago. On a you gotta win, you know, obviously the stakes are higher, but don't make the moment bigger than this is a game. Yeah, play the game, the outcome, you know, that that's the byproduct. Don't forget that part of it. So, you know, really we got to a point where uh we went ahead and then we got in a four-minute mode and scored another touchdown. It was like, damn, we're actually gonna win the super bowl. You know, one of those things that just hit you. It's like, wow, wow, it's gonna happen. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Uh, a couple other just rapid fire questions. Uh, your favorite player, maybe not Travis is probably it, but maybe uh your top three players that have been your favorite to coach in your career.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

When I first uh started coaching tight ends, I had three guys in my room, Mike Bartram, Chad Lewis, and Jeff Thomason. All of them have been playing in the NFL for eight or more years. It's my first year coaching tight ends in my life. So they taught me more about football than I taught them. That was a great journey with the, and they were great about it. They were going, you know, maybe we should be working on this a little bit here and all that. And you know, I would give present, you know, the game plan and things and what we're going through. But I think with those three guys, what what they did for me and helped me through that, and uh, that was phenomenal for them to do that.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Love that. Uh and what about and let me just uh and what about the the you're the best leader you've ever worked with as a player, who's a player, someone you'd call the greatest leader you've ever worked with.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

Probably Alex Smith, when he came here from San Francisco, just how he handled himself, how he handled the huddle, how he handled teammates, how he handled the versity, how how he, you know, a coach's kid, so you you're gonna have a little bit of that behind it. But just watching him bring this organization from a two and 14 team to us being perennial playoff teams, uh, was phenomenal. And he's you know, one of the great human beings that have ever walked the earth here. And you know, you saw that and you know, kind of how he dealt with his adversity and what he went through with his injury history, but just a phenomenal young man. And I I just I was very fortunate to be able to, you know, spend some time with him and watch him uh work himself through life.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Yeah, I I've met Alex a couple times, I know, when when we've been together, and that's why Aiden wears number 11. And it's oh that's sweet. Yeah, it's uh still have the picture of him, and Aiden has a signed jersey from him on his wall. So, what about the player that maybe started out with the most room to grow? The player that that transformed the most over your time coaching them.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

Uh that might be the guy we're currently working with. Yeah, you know, he he was uh talented and and had all the things, you know, he just had to go through it his way. I think that was uh a great way to put it. It's it's been a uh fun journey with him, a lot of learning, a lot of hard times, a lot of good times, and uh, but I think you know, just keeping him not not breaking him is always the thing. You don't want to, all right, you need to conform, you need to be and just you know, just kind of bringing bringing the guardrails in just a little bit each time and watching them grow. It's like your kids, you know, you watch them, and you know, we you we have kids that you go, oh my goodness, and then they end up being, you know, wow, you know, this is the voice of reason, and that was not the way he was growing up, or yeah, she was growing up. So those are you know, just watching the development in your kids, it'd be the same, same thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Love it. And what about the toughest player you've ever played against or coached against?

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Well, when we came in the league, the uh the Ravens were going hard. Ray Lewis is just as as good as they were, and was as smart as they were, and was just as talented. And uh, you know, just when you hear about how he went through things and and how he looked at the game and how he played the game, and you're just in awe of how he uh he did things. And we did have to play against him, and uh, you know, we played him at the end of the year, and I know I was in charge of working on goal line offense at the time, and there it goes. The Ravens haven't had a snap inside the five-yard line all season. Wow, they were that dominant, yeah. So it's one of those, and they they were truly that dominant and position, and they were that good, and everybody did their job, and uh it was you know, those are the things that you know, like this last Super Bowl. It's I you know, friends were saying, you know, yeah, this is a little boring. I go, it's like a no-hitter, guys. Yeah, this is a phenomenal game. It is on defense, but let's let's you know see what adjustments they make on offense. But this is a really good game, it's yeah, fundamentally sounds.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Yeah, yeah, it was something else. It was something else. Uh, last question, and it is for anyone who's thinking about getting into coaching as a profession and being a coach, what advice would you have for people making that move or thinking about making that move?

SPEAKER_03 54:18

Well, uh a couple things. I know when I when I became a graduate assistant when I first started, my head coach Vicar Owen sat me down and goes, All right, I know that's you know why you came here. And he goes, and there's a difference between wanting to be a football coach and wanting to coach football. What is it you want to be? What is your it's not gonna be your identity? Get into it because you love coaching football. And we get this a lot from ex-players in the NFL, they want to start in the NFL, and Andy's big thing to them is go coach, whatever level, it doesn't matter, matter if it's high school, but if you love doing it and you get good at it, then we can talk. Yeah, so don't, and I never, you know, as I said, everybody wants to coach in the NFL. That's you know, you want to be at the top of the game that you're involved in. But my goal when I started wasn't it's NFL or bust, I'll get out of it if I can't coach in the NFL. I just love coaching, whatever level it was at, wherever I was at, I wanted to be the best at it and enjoy what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Yeah, yeah. I love coaching football. I didn't want to be a football coach, that's why I coach high school because I love coaching football. Uh, but there's a lot that goes into it that isn't just the game or isn't just the I'm on the practice field, and you've really got to want that. Well, uh, Tom, this is this has been great. This really is uh if someone had told me in 1995 that 30 years later we'd be sitting down having this conversation, uh, I don't think we would have believed them. But I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me, for Aiden, for our players, our teammates, uh, our group chat, all of it, giving us a chance to be on the field with you guys. It's been a joy to be a part of this group with you and watch your success. And I just want to say thank you.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Well, Mike, same to you. I appreciate you know, watching what your journey's been like and and how you've dealt with that. And that note, I don't.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Yeah, appreciate that, Tom. And this has been great. Uh, we'll uh we'll we'll share this widely and broadly because I think the lessons of football they go so far beyond just the game of football. And I think you've helped us think about that here today. So thanks for everyone who's tuned in today. Thanks for being a part of the Top Voice podcast. Uh, Tom, we'll see you here and talk to you real soon.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

We'll see you next time. Look forward to it. Okay, all right, bye.