Stop Forcing Generosity: What Nonprofits Get Wrong About the Brain with Cherian Koshy

Michael talks with Cherian Koshy about his book Neurogiving and how neuroscience and behavioral science explain generosity and decision-making. Koshy, a longtime nonprofit professional, says the goal isn’t to manufacture generosity but to create conditions that make giving easier, emphasizing choice architecture, identity, belonging, emotion, and trust. He explains why metrics and “the business case” often fail, describing decision “gates” such as affective reasoning, identity alignment, and the identifiable individual effect, and argues that logic comes last. They discuss how nonprofits and companies should resequence outreach to prioritize relationship and trust-building, why transactional “pitch-first” approaches backfire, and how AI-driven growth tactics can burn trust and retention.


Timestamps:
00:24  Welcome
01:08  Meet Cherian Koshy
01:37  Why Neurogiving Exists
03:11  Early Fundraising Lessons
07:47  Innate Altruism Explained
13:07  Why Metrics Fail
19:33  Resequencing Trust First
25:47  AI and Trust Cliff
29:30  Key Takeaways on Generosity
35:06  Closing

Connect with Cherian:
https://www.cheriankoshy.com
https://www.labnotes.neurogivingbook.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cheriankoshy/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Top Voice Podcast, where each week I sit down with leading voices in business, leadership, and transformation to unpack the issues that matter most. Together, we explore fresh insights, bold ideas, and real-world stories from people shaping how we think about change, culture, and what's possible. Welcome to the Top Voice podcast. It is August 4th. I can't believe summer's almost over. We're here with Cherry and Koshi, and we're going to talk about a topic today: Neurogiving, your new book and the work that you do around the science of giving. It's something that I've been super interested in since we first met and the work that I do. So I'm excited to bring this conversation to you. Before we do that, for everyone tuning in live, please leave a comment or a question. We love to take those and be sure to subscribe to the podcast. Another quick note is we're debuting our new background today here in the world of the Top Voice podcast and my new studio office. So for those of you wondering what feels different, that's that's the biggest thing, at least for the moment. So uh Charion, let's get into this conversation. You've got a new book, you're doing some amazing work. Tell us who you are, tell us what you do and and how you got into the world of training the neuroscience of giving to companies that are in the business of of building nonprofits and all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Well, Michael, thanks for having me on. Thanks for the podcast. This is really great. I've been listening for a long time and really appreciate the work that you're doing. So uh so thanks a lot for for doing it, for having me on. Um, so I've been in the nonprofit world for uh almost, well, next year will be my 30th year. And um, and so the book came out last year as really a culmination of what I had been seeing in the space for a long time through my own work, and then um really seeing that there wasn't a book that had all of the science in one place. And so what I was hoping to do was take the research that I was using in my own work and in my trainings and workshops and keynotes and whatnot, and put all of that in one sort of ready reference. And so the book called Neurogiving is uh is not like my own experience or stories of what I did or what other people did. It's actually a whole set of here's what all of the academic research inside of the space and then outside of the sector tells us about what generosity looks like, why people give, what's driving that decision so that people can follow the science and then sort of choose their own adventure as they go through the process of uh of designing their work and then either validating their strategies or refining them from there.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. We we share a similar, I think, uh, motivation and and drive for the science of change in people. My book does a similar, and you're telling your story, my background's very similar in that I wanted to put everything in one place that I knew I was doing and that was working, but we didn't have a reference for. And so let's let's maybe start with before you wrote the book and the work that you were doing, how were some of these early concepts maybe showing up in the world of fundraising and the world of giving, but you didn't yet have a language for or understand that's what was happening kind of behind the hood or under the hood of the human experience?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah. So um, you know, I started out not really understanding what what nonprofits do, what fundraising is, you know, any of that. Um I was a real newbie uh in everything 30 years ago, was trying to, I was just trying to do the job. And so um I'd love to say that there was a point at which somewhere in there, um, I'm just watching all of these like blockbuster movies, like you know, the Odyssey and the Spider-Man movie and whatnot. I'd love to say that there was a cinematic moment of like the music swells and the camera pants, and like there's this light bulb moment of like, oh, this, you know, this is the the re the real realism of like this is what needs to happen. But it really was this sort of like slow accumulation. Maybe it's just I'm not that bright, but um, it was really a function of sometimes something would work, and then other times things wouldn't work. And I would go to conferences, I would read books, I would download articles, or I would watch webinars and I would try different things that people would say worked in their organization, but it just wouldn't always play out the same way in my organization. And I just didn't understand why what worked in one place or what someone was telling me should work didn't work the exact same way. And you know, the slick brochure or the, you know, the the crafty, you know, back in the day it was direct mail, but then you know, as we got into email and social media, like what people told me was supposed to work just didn't work. And then this sort of like imperfect conversation or this sort of happen chance type of meeting then sparked something that was really significant. And and um then I really got into neuroscience and behavioral science, and that was really the unlock for me. It really helped me to understand the fact that people were already generous, that they wanted to express that generosity. And our job as nonprofits was not to manufacture generosity, it wasn't to figure out how to make non-generous people generous, it was to create the context, the conditions under which that generosity became easier. And so when that unlock happened, when I understood, you know, choice architecture and I understood identity and belonging and how all of this put piece, all of these pieces came together, that made everything that I had previously previously learned and everything that I was doing fall into place so that the work that we were doing now made sense and I could put that into place for my own organization, but then help other organizations see that for themselves as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah. I I just what a great story. And I I relate to that experience and your journey so much. And maybe just to to co-sign on that a little bit, when I got into my path around change, I was having the similar experience. Why aren't these things working? Why aren't the established frameworks not creating the results that we want? And my journey started actually in the middle of the pandemic and the emergence of all things the Huberman Lab podcast. Yeah. And I started listening to what were quite honestly medical school level lectures on things like motivation and stress and adaptation and learning. And I started to realize hey, these are all the things that are the foundational principles of the human experience. And then we show up to work and we pretend that those things don't play a role. So how did you well, maybe let's get back to the premise that you just shared. So I mean, I just wanted to kind of share that because we share so much of the same experience, but from different angles. Your your premise in your book is so interesting, and you just said it, which is it's not about manufacturing generosity, it's about creating the conditions where generosity can can happen. What walk us through just that point of view and why it's so revolutionary in the world of giving and fundraising and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

So um the the real core thesis of the of the book, and um, I think what you hit on that's really important is that this is a universal principle. This isn't something that's specific to a particular type of nonprofit or particular to the United States. It what I what I was trying to figure out is how do people make decisions? Like, how do they decide to go on a diet and stick with it? Or how do people decide to um you know budget for their finances? How do people make those types of decisions? And then if we could figure out that from what the science says, then we could certainly apply it to how do people donate to charity? And that there's a ton of research in that space. And so what I sought out to figure out was what does all the research tell us about how do people change their minds? How do people decide um to do something that they've never done before or stick with a decision? And what the research tells us is that it very interestingly, uniquely to the decision about generosity or about altruism, is that when we're young, when we're actually pre-linguistic babies, before we actually are able to communicate, kids have this innate sense of altruism and empathy. And that's been scientifically proven. We're we're innately wired to help others. And those studies indicate that our behavior is we we see other people in need, we want to help them. And over time, those sensibilities either get dulled or they get um they get framed in different ways. And so the stories that we start to tell ourselves are around like, oh, am I gonna get something back, or you know, is this going to create some you know other problems for me in the long run? But there is this hard wiring that's built into us that says, if there's someone in need, I have this sort of urge to help someone. And for most people, in most instances, we don't ever lose that. And that's the part that most nonprofits tend to sort of like they know this, but they they lose that, just as exactly what you mentioned. We sort of like put that on the shelf. And what most organizations are taught to do, and I think there's an element of like kind of commercial marketing that comes in that teaches people that you need to persuade someone to do something, that you need to convince them to do something that they maybe don't want to do. And they like they they they need to do something, um, and there's maybe like a magic turn of phrase, or there's a proof that you need to do in order to convince them. And so a lot of organizations go to like, here's how good our organization is, or here's how many people we have helped, or here's how good our programs are. And in reality, those are all the literally, those are all the wrong things to do. And the science is super clear about why those are the wrong things to do. And if we get back to what drives people identity, belonging, emotion, trust, those core components actually are the things that drive people to make decisions. And if whether it's nonprofit organizations or just people in general trying to influence people, those core components are actually what will influence people to to to make decisions, change their minds, um, and and make decisions.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. I I want to get back. I I just it's we we run in such parallel circles that uh I could literally do this all day. I want to get back to why those strategies don't work, all of the frameworks and the metrics, but I I I want to raise a point that's really important in what you're describing. I talk about this in my book as well, but you know, we are a social species, and social behavior is among the most biologically rewarding behavior that we can engage in. And that hardwiring is a function of the fact that if you wanted to survive in small tribes thousands and tens of thousands of years ago, you needed to be in a group. And the way you aligned with that group was through contribution. It's not about it, and then we have a collective sense of safety. And and one of the things that happens in the world change there's a phrase that you you're not referencing, but I will, which is called the what's how companies to go along whatever movement it is because you're gonna get some benefit. And actually, what I've found in my own research, and I think this tracks, is when you change that to what your contribution is, when I'm thinking about how I give to the organization and contribute meaningfully, there's a much stronger attachment to my identity, to my motivation, my sense of belonging and the culture of the organization. So I I mean, again, it's so interesting that we've arrived at some of these concepts together, but separately. So, so you talked about the things that don't work. Let's let's talk about that. Why do the why does the business case not work? Why do the metrics not work? Why do all the stats not convince people to give?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, so again, that's I mean, that's probably a whole day's worth of of conversation because there's so much science behind each one of them. But what I would just in short form talk about is our brains go through a set of gates, if you will, a sort of set of decision-making parameters. And um, and the first parameter is am I like emotionally invested? Am I emotionally open to what's being said? So do I feel it? And the way that we describe that, like we talk about this all the time. Like, I didn't feel that in my gut. My gut feels like this doesn't feel right. And that's our body telling ourselves that there's something right or there's something wrong about what's happening. And we physically feel that, but our brains are actually telling us that this just doesn't feel good or it does feel good. And if we don't, if we're not emotionally connected to whatever is happening, whether that being be a giving decision or a business decision or or you know, any kind of decision, if it doesn't feel right, we're not going to be connected to it. And we're not then and if that gate isn't open, if that gate is has closed already, we're not going to be open to anything after that. Um, and then the the second piece is is this me? So the that first part is what's called affective reasoning um in psychology. And if we and so if that part is closed, if affective reasoning isn't available or isn't open to us, we're not going to be engaged. The second piece is uh around identity. And this is is this who I am or who I want to be when I grow up? And the question there is if this doesn't resonate with who I see myself to be or who I anticipate I want to be, then that door closes. So as I'm connecting with another person and they're asking me or they're they're, you know, they want me to do something, it has to resonate with who I think about as I'm considering myself. And this is the idea of like internal buy-in. This is identity protective, um, identity protective concept. And if it is in opposition to who I see myself to be or who I think I want to be, then I'm shut down as well. Um, and then when when you mention statistics in particular, there's a concept in the science called um the individual uh or the identifiable victim effect, which I call the identifiable individual effect, because it doesn't need to be about victimization necessarily, but the science calls it victimization. In the nonprofit world, we often talk about someone who's suffering, someone who is like in need. And so victimization does tend to play a more relevant role there, but there's a whole lot of ethical components that we don't have time to unpack today. But in workshops and keynotes, like I do talk about that a lot. The point is that our brains are actually not capable of processing lots of people, it's a weird way in which our brains are wired, in that we only really understand what's happening to one person. So if we hear like thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of people, if you say my organization helps thousands of people, our brains don't understand it. If you say my business helps millions of people or even dozens of people solve this problem, our brains don't get it. If you say my business helped this person solve that problem, I get it. I understand my brain can cognitively open to that. So these are all the latches or the levers or the gates that, or at least they're the prerequisites that have to be open in order for our brains to start to accept the logic. And what most nonprofits and businesses and people do is they go to the thing that they feel like they need to prove. They're like, I need to prove to you that I'm right. I'm gonna go to all of my facts and figures, which is the absolute last thing that the brain considers after all of these other things are true. And don't forget that I have to trust you, Michael, as a person and your intent that you are for me, Tyrion, before I'm even going to be engaged in listening to that logic. So all of these gates have to be open before I'm listening to whatever you have to prove to me. And if you start with logic, it's sort of like reading someone's resumes at a funeral. True statements, absolutely wrong timing. So, yes, and I'm not going to listen to that.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah. This is what makes things like politics so so difficult for a lot of people because we have these gates that exist for us. And it's so interesting because in the world of change, coming at it from the other direction, it's really interesting to compare these two ecosystems because in a in a giving sense, you've got an organization that's reaching out to a population with an argument or a case for giving that is really designed to reach individuals and help those individuals make unitary decisions. In a company, what you have is a group of individuals trying to go down into an organization and treat the population as this unitary thing because it's too inefficient to go after all of the individuals. But you've hit on all the reasons why that doesn't work because you have to get to know me. And the law of kind of large numbers is it works in the other direction, which is if I feel like I'm just part of a thousand people and I'm indiscriminate from those other 999, then I don't feel special enough to participate in whatever journey you're asking me to go on. And and this is sort of a really interesting rub in here. So, so let's talk about maybe how you've, as you introduced this conversation and these concepts, how are companies and nonprofits struggling to now make the shifts that they need to make to change the way they go about looking for donors and asking for money and fundraising and all of that?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

So I think the the silver lining or the the opportunity is actually really easy for most good nonprofit organizations because it's not a messaging problem, it's a sequencing problem. It's not about throwing out everything that you've done, it's about moving the pieces that you already have into the right order. So they already have all of these pieces. They probably just spent less time and less energy on the things that have come first and put those things now in the right place. So a lot of what I talk about is you know, you probably sit down with a donor and you spend a little bit of time on the, you know, get to know you stuff and the you know introductory stuff, and then try to get very quickly into the, you know, here's what we're here to talk about, here's the reasons why you should donate. In reality, that front matter is actually what really matters. That relationship building component is the real key. So a lot of organizations will think about, and this is true, very true in the business sense, will think about the pitch. And that has sort of imported into nonprofits. And like, how quickly, how tightly can I get a get a pitch out there so that I can convince someone to do something? But the research from Paul Zach from Dr. Paul Zach indicates that you can't bypass trust-building activities. Trust is really developed over time in small doses. So these, you know, whether they're businesses or nonprofits that try to jump start the transaction process too quickly without building relationship, without building trust, are actually, and Dan Arielli, the professor from Duke, uh, does some really great research about this that says that if we If we basically create transaction before relationship, people get turned off by that. And so the idea is how do we really reinforce that I am I'm in this for you, not in this for myself, particularly in an age of AI where everything seems artificial, everything seems extractive. How do we really view this as something that is uh of in your interest, in your for your value, um, and and really uh designed for you. So um, so particularly when I talk to organizations, it's about understanding where are you putting the focus? What are you driving towards? And if you're driving towards the ask, you're doing it wrong. You should be driving towards all of these different pieces. And I mentioned, you know, three or four of them, but there's a there's more to that of thinking about, you know, what are the what are the key components, what are the even the words that we say, because those can shape. I mentioned to you before that I'm doing a keynote tomorrow. We're talking about you know, very specific words and phrases that shape how we relate to one another, that open those doors and and close those doors. There's a lot that goes into those conversations that that shape how other people see us. Um and so what I would um what I would reinforce to you know anyone listening is that as you think about how you're looking at your um your ICP, your ideal customer profile, or in the case of a nonprofit, your ideal donor profile, it's not about their their capacity, their wealth, their, you know, their um their the things that identify their specific ability to buy your product or to donate. It's actually a much more nuanced focus around all the other sort of, I wouldn't even want to say intangibles, but all of these other pieces that are actually measurable and moving those pieces to the forefront. And sure, do they have to be able to buy your product or donate to your organization? Yes, but you know, a lot of I would say, and I'll uh I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but a lot of bad nonprofits have only looked at who can give us a million dollars, regardless of whether they care about the cause. And they're like, who are the richest people in my town or the richest people in America? I'm gonna try and get money from those people. They do not care about your school, they don't care about the arts, they don't care about whatever you do. They're not gonna give to your organization. Yeah, and that's the cleanest example of the wrong way of doing it. I don't think that most nonprofit organizations are like that. And I don't think that most businesses go about business that way. I think they I think most smart people see that there are the right people that are that are the good fit for what they're doing. They just need to re-sequence what they're doing and put the right pieces in the right order.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah. I there's so many lessons in there about, and for companies, I think it's to your point about overfocusing on the pitch. There's such a connection we have with the rational argument that a strong pitch is so compelling that it will prompt the action that we want. And I always say to people that, you know, all this stuff sounds great to get an actual human involved, and they don't have to follow your rules because there's a lot of other things under the hood there. And you said something else that I I want to touch on, and it's we're almost at time. It's these things go fast, but I want to touch on AI because you I think everyone's got their guard up even more now. And a lot of people I know, every every message I get on LinkedIn or people reach out, you're always wondering when's it, when's it coming? Right? When is the when is the ask coming? Because it's probably coming. How do we, how do I I would imagine that as an as an organization, we have to display a tremendous amount of patience and willingness to endure the journey of trust building and push back on maybe our stakeholders, our board, uh our oversight committees that are all asking for results. But you're you're describing a different, more patient relationship journey that doesn't always follow the timetable that you want to be on.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Absolutely. And I think the um the promise, the false promise of AI, that you can go out and sort of play hungry, hungry hippos with prospects, whether it's donors or customers, does not take into account that there is a finite amount of people out there who will not only buy, but also retain, right? So there's a finite acquisition pool and there's a finite retention pool with that strategy. And once that burns out, you have burned the only currency that you have, and that is the trust that you have with that constituency. So whether you are a business or a PE firm or a nonprofit or whatever that is overwhelming your organization with this um, you know, grow at all costs mentality, you are going to you're you're going to grow in the short term because some of those strategies will work, but there is an absolute cliff at which you have burned out acquisition. And because you have you have you know burned the boats, you have scorched the earth, no one will buy from you anymore, and no one will continue to buy from you. So your retention will not be there, and it's not a sustainable strategy. And I think that there are some, you know, from my own experience, I've seen nonprofits who have done this even before AI. They have done this and they've not engaged in trust building, they've not engaged in relationship building. And so these lessons are now applicable to the consumer space. And what I keep coming back to is the fact that generosity is the lesson that can be transplanted from the nonprofit space into the consumer space. If we use that lesson not as like a donate lesson, but generosity as a principle into the consumer space, into the business space, that's a lesson that can redeem the consumer space in a really meaningful way, especially in the age of AI.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah. What a what that's such an inspiring message. And I believe it's true. And I believe we just have to have the right orientation around our willingness to engage in the long game, which is really what you're describing. And I think we've been so conditioned to get it now, have it now, push it now. If you didn't make a decision with me in the first 30 days, then that's it. You must never make a decision. And I think there's just so much, it's tough. It's tough to resist the urge to try to push the easy button on some of these things. And so I we've talked about so many concepts here, Charian, from your book. And I think we've only scratched the surface of your book and the work that you do. What are what are two to three things that you want the listeners to take away from the conversation about unlocking generosity and rethinking their approach to how we engage with customers, with donors, and building trust and thinking differently about the science of giving in relationships?

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah. So I think the first piece, understanding that um there's a wide variety of listeners and they have a lot of different uh vantage points. The first piece is that generosity is not just about donating to a nonprofit. It's a principle that applies to our everyday behavior, whether it's interpersonally with everyday relationships that we have or with our um with within our businesses, or certainly with causes that we care about. Generosity is the glue that connects us to one another. It's the way in which we relate to one another and the way in which I would say societies function. And so as we have grown into a more complex society, the thing that we have now seen that we have lost in a loneliness epidemic is the the loosening of social bonds. And um, you know, if we look back 50 years ago or 100 years ago, um, one of the things that we could we can look back on is that we cared more about one another. We connected more with one another, and we've lost that. And that loneliness epidemic, I think, is a proof of how we have lost connection with people in general. And you know, there's lots of other symptoms of that, whether it's social media or you know, other things that we don't need to get into here today. But my point is in all of this, the big takeaway is that everyone can take responsibility for generosity in their daily lives and be the first agent of that generosity. So in their individual lives, in their businesses, in causes that they care about, moving first to be generous. And that can be through their through their actions, through how they're enabling people to um to give their best selves, to offer something, um, and and certainly to the causes that they care about. That's the first takeaway. Demonstrating that principle in their in their everyday lives. The second is that um is the reminder that in all of the interactions that we have, there are ways in which we are conditioned to think about how do I influence behavior that's sort of this battering ram of like I'm going to brute force attack people on my way or the highway. And the reality is that that's not how to influence or change people. And there are a lot of gates that people go through in order to make those decisions. We talked about a few of those. This comes back to the idea of generosity as well. When you think about um, you know, empathy and trust and relationship building, all of those have a generosity component. But what I want to remind people of as well is that if you just change the sequence of what you're thinking, if you just start with, who are these people? What are they, what are they really there for? What what what am I um what does that person really want? And get curious about that person, you start to shift the dynamic. And that is that was the unlock for me. That's what drove me to write the book, but that's really what changes how people um change decisions, how people influence behavior, and it ultimately influences your own behavior. So it's not just about influencing someone else's behavior, it influences your own as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yeah, I I I love that. And I think there's this really interesting piece about that you're describing about going first and generosity. There's a there's a principle there that's really important in the world of change as well, which is the only person you can change is yourself. And demonstrating getting others to change starts with leading the way that you expect other people to follow and to to sort of lean into the behaviors. And I think that tends to go with generosity as well. The second thing you said, which is just so relevant in the world of change, is we try to brute force our way through the an accelerated behavior change experience for other people. Like, you know, are you done now? Are you done now? What about now? And that's not how people work. They have to arrive at these things through a set of experiences. And that experience is very specific to that individual. And you can't take the same, yes, you can take the same sequence, but my phase one might be twice as long as your phase one because I'm a different person with all the different things that go into it. And so there's just so many lessons here about how we relate to people and and how we bring these concepts, whether you're trying to find new customers, whether you're trying to lead a team, whether you're trying to get donors or or or or you know, find new clients. So I just appreciate all the work that you're doing here, Charion. And I think this concept and these concepts, people need to dive into the book, uh ASAP. We we should probably also do a little uh you know, a little science off between our the, you know, the sort of concepts in each of our books. That would be really fun. Um, Charion, also, as you know, we have a closing tradition on this podcast, which is the last guest leaves a question for the next one. A little nervous. Uh and yeah, and so uh the question that's been left for you, which I think is really interesting, and they always have a way of working out, is uh name a time in your life when you've experienced awe or wonder.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Oh, geez. Uh okay. So um I I think there are lots of times where I've experienced awe or wonder. Um particularly when I've exper I think most of the time where I've experienced awe or wonder is in natural beauty, like the large expanses of um like the ocean or um uh or something that is like magnificent in that way. And um, and personally, I try to seek out those types of things where um there are things that are awe-inspiring that can't be found anywhere else. So, for example, in March I'm gonna go and um do the Everest base camp because I want to see Everest firsthand. Um, so that's just another example of like I've I've seen some things that other people have seen and you know experienced, but I want to see that one in particular. So um, you know, that's that's one I'll I'll send you a picture of that one when I get there.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

I love it. Uh be careful that's a dangerous place on planet Earth. So uh I I normally don't do this, but when the guest left it for me last time, I was she she left the question and I immediately, for those of you that have never never been there, um if you've never been to the Sistine Chapel, I've I've been there and I I sat there for three hours looking at the ceiling, thinking to myself, there's nothing that I will do that 500 years from now people will travel the globe to come see. And I just was just I I can still I've been three times, I guess, now, and I every time it's like the first time, it's really amazing. So uh well, that's great. We'll be safe on your trip.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I'm surprised they let you stay there for three hours.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Our our guide was you need I I hid myself around, I was moving around. So uh Sherion, where can everybody find you, follow you, get your book in all of the I am online on all the social medias at my name.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Um, so that's pretty easy. The website is also my name.com, Charankoshi.com, and then the book is available at uh on all the regular retailers wherever your books are sold. And uh there's some bonuses available at neurogivingbook.com if that makes sense for you or for a nonprofit that you love.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Great. And we'll include all those links in the show notes. Um, thank you again. Thank you for joining the show while you're on travel there uh in in Denver and good luck on your speeches coming up and congratulations again on the book and on the work that you do. I think for those listening or watching, if you're not in the nonprofit world, this book still applies in so many ways. And I think you'll do yourself a favor by educating yourself on a lot of these concepts and how they can be applied in your life to better your relationships. I'm gonna throw a plug-in for my book as well because it's also in that same vein. So I hope you check both out uh and follow both of us to continue to learn about the science of your relationships and life and change and giving and all that good stuff. Sherion, thank you again and thank you all for joining the Top Voice podcast. We'll see you all next week. Thanks so much, Michael. Appreciate it.