“Is Alaska on Another Planet?! 😳 Inside the Wild Politics Behind Palin vs Peltola

What’s really going on in Alaska’s political landscape—and why does it feel completely different from the rest of the United States?
In this episode of SOS America, host Charles Feldman sits down with author and political analyst David Bernknopf to unpack the unique political identity of Alaska. From unconventional voting strategies to the headline-grabbing race between Peltola and Palin, this interview dives deep into a state that plays by its own rules.
They also tackle the bigger national conversation—discussing Donald Trump, public perceptions around corruption, and how Alaska voters interpret national politics differently.
Plus, David shares insights from his fascinating book:
“Two Years on Another Planet...or is it Alaska?” — revealing what makes Alaska’s political culture so distinct and unpredictable. https://www.twoyearsbook.com/3
👉 Why does Alaska vote differently?
👉 What makes its elections so unique?
👉 And is it really like “another planet”?
Watch now to find out.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Do you think that a lot of people in Alaska anyway get the fact that Trump is transparently corrupt?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

I mean, I guess in a way he is. But this would have, Charles, you know this, this would have destroyed any other White House up until now. I don't think I've I can't remember another politician who tries to be humorous the way Vance does and fails so miserably. I've been around other politicians, many who don't have a great sense of humor. They don't keep trying to tell jokes. They Trump understands what his strength is very clearly. He knows that never saying he's sorry, never backing down, always being the tough guy, that's his persona. And it has worked for him in ways that a lot of people, including me, didn't imagine.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Hi, welcome to another edition of SOS America. I'm Charles Feldman, and for those of you who have been uh regularly listening, watching whatever you do with this podcast over the past few months, you know that we uh spend a time each episode uh talking to various experts. We've talked to politicians, we've talked to medical people, we've talked to uh lawyers, you name it. Uh and the central theme of the podcast, if you are just joining us, is to try to figure out, I always keep saying it this way, what the hell is happening in America now? Because it is a question that comes up all the time, especially when I talk with people in other parts of the world. But to my surprise, it's also a question that is asked at a pretty regular basis uh by people in this country, in the United States. So uh with that, uh let me introduce uh our guest for this particular episode, David Bernkoff, uh spent uh a good 20 years or so at uh CNN. We all know that that's Donald Trump's favorite network. He was at CNN for some 20 years, and uh I should also point out that uh I was there also uh for about 20 years, and we kind of overlapped uh at uh some portions of the time while I was there. Um he was one of the original employees at CNN. It went on the air in uh 1980, I believe it was. Uh he produced uh various political stories, documentaries. He ended up being vice president of news planning and was a senior producer for a weekly investigative program that was out of Washington, D.C. And then David took uh what uh some of us might consider to be an odd turn. Uh he ended up in the state of Alaska, which we will get into more as we uh go on. And for some true years he was executive producer of the investigative unit at Alaska's News Service. And uh he also is, I presume, the proud author of a novel that is about to be unleashed on the uh world. I'll hold it up here, and we also have a graphic, I think. I hope we do. It is called Two Years on Another Planet, or is it Alaska? Uh question mark. And we'll get into that as well. David Burnkoff, thanks for being with us on SOS America.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

It's good to see you again. I'm happy to be here, and I'm happy to talk about politics. It was my first love in journalism.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

And you're out of Alaska now, so you're thawed out, I presume.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I'm in Colorado now. I did spend uh the last couple of years working on a book that is a fictionalized account of my two years in Alaska. And uh it is an interesting place, particularly politically.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Ah, and and so there begins our discussion then. Uh, you know, Alaska is one of those states that I think many people in other parts of the U.S. are puzzled by because I I don't think, you know, probably most Americans have not been to Alaska because of its distance. It is, in fact, the only state, David, that I have not been to. I've been to every single state in the Union. I have never been to Alaska. I keep wanting to go, and every time I want to go, something else comes up, and I go somewhere else uh on the planet. Uh but it is a kind of unusual state. I think many people have a great deal of difficulty trying to figure out where Alaskans stand on certain political issues. You know, if you mention, say, Georgia or Alabama or New York or California, there is rightly or wrongly, I think, almost a reflexed uh opinion of what that state is about politically. You say California, people think, oh, a bunch of loony, you know, left-wingers. Not really true, but it is what people think. Uh you say, you know, some state in the deep south, they figure, oh, it's a state that is clearly uh aligned with the Make America Great movement, uh, that you know, there are a bunch of right-wingers, that kind of thing. Also not totally true, although stereotypes are stereotypes because there's always a germ of truth in the uh stereotype. So let's take Alaska. What is Alaska about politically?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Alaska is the only place I've ever been, and I've covered politics all over the United States. It's the only place that I would say is largely truly libertarian. They could change the state motto to you do you, I do me. And I'll give you a couple of examples. Alaska has almost no rules about gun ownership. It also has the most, even more than where I am now in Colorado, the most liberal marijuana laws. It has almost no restrictions on abortion. It does not have a large Christian political movement that pushes it into Christian nationalism. It does have one, but it's not as large as other states. It's a state where Donald Trump, in the last Senate election, um, which was right when I got there in 2022, he flew up to campaign for a Trumpy Republican named Kelly Chewbacca against someone who is there now and won the won the election, Lisa Murkowski, who ran as an independent. And it wasn't that close of a race. Uh it's a state that really believes in I want to do what I want to do. And that makes it unique. I've been around libertarians who are libertarians because they don't want to have a big government, they don't like taxes. On the other side, they're libertarians who don't want any restrictions on their social lives or their civic lives. But they don't tend to really be what libertarianism truly means, except in Alaska.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Why, though, do you think that that's the case? Is it because Alaska geographically is so much farther from the rest of the United States? Or is there something about the people who are either born there or gravitate to it that gives it that composition that you've just articulated?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

An excellent question. There are a couple of reasons. It is very isolated. The shortest plane ride to the United States is three hours from Anchorage to Seattle. So it is physically isolated. It also has the largest percentage of indigenous people of any state in the country. Not the largest number, I think that might be New Mexico, but the largest percentage. Almost 20% of Alaskans are native peoples. 13 tribes that exist still in some communities as subsistence uh subsistence lives. Uh about 10%, 15% of the country lives in what are called off-the-road towns. There is no road that goes there. You are basically there and you stay there unless you have a medical emergency or a family reason to leave, and then getting out is a problem. You have to take in the smaller towns, a small private plane, uh in a place like Nome or a town called Bethel, or even up on the north slope where the oil industry is. There are some commercial flights, but it you are isolated. And then the third thing is you are isolated by nature. And I don't mean nature like the weather, I mean the personal nature. People choose to go there because they they want to be alone, they do things by themselves or with their own small friend or family group. And so if you like fishing, if you like hunting, that's the place for you. If you want to be at the disco or you want to hang out with your friends at a football game, it's not the place for you.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

You know, it's funny that you you mentioned they want to be alone. It it brings to mind just kind of a side note. Many years ago, before I started working at uh CNN, which was in 1983, yeah, uh, I was a reporter and producer for the Wall Street Journal Report, which at the time was a syndicated show. It was on a lot of CBS stations here in the States. Um, and I went all around the country doing stories, and I was doing a story on uh uh far on on the folks that cut down trees for uh loggers. For loggers. Thank you. For loggers. And uh and it was the most difficult interview. I went to talk to this guy uh who was, you know, with his saw or whatever, chainsaw or whatever, cutting down this giant tree. And it was all one-syllable answers. I would ask him a question and he would go, uh-huh. Uh do you like it here? Uh-huh. Do you like the job? Yeah, you know, and and at one point I got frustrated and I said, Can you can you give me a little bit more than just uh-huh-uh-h? And his response was, he said, Why do you think I'm here in the middle of nowhere cutting down trees? I don't want to talk to anybody.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

And that was believe me, a lot of people in Alaska would understand that. I I have a my go-to story to illustrate the mentality of people. Uh, and this was what was said to me in the story was not meant to be mean. It was just a reflection of the way Alaskans live. And I fictionalized this in my book to make it even worse, maybe. Uh one the Monday after Thanksgiving, the first year I was there, I came back in the office, and one of the anchors who'd been there for a million years uh said to me, Oh, what did you do for Thanksgiving? And I said, Nothing. Nobody invited me anywhere. I I made my I made a frozen lasagna, and she said, Oh, we thought about inviting you. Okay, you thought about it, and I didn't quite pass the test. So I you know me for one of the first times in my life, I couldn't say anything. I didn't even know how to respond to that because I know she didn't mean it like you didn't make the uh you weren't quite good enough to be invited. What she meant was we sort of thought about, we wondered about you, but we just don't think that way, so we didn't invite you.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Uh so I am curious, and before we go on to talk about about uh the important things in the world, let me zero in on why did you end up then in Alaska?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Uh I had a job that um I had left in Washington variety of reasons, but let's just say I wasn't fully enjoying that job. And I was helping some folks do podcasting. I was just sitting around doing a lot of nothing, realizing that at my age, and I guess what people expected to be my salary level, people weren't beating down the door anymore to hire me as a network producer. And I got a cold call from the television group that owned most of the TV stations in Alaska, certainly the only station that really did news. Uh, and they said, Would you like to be in a, you know, would you like to run a little investigative unit? Well, an investigative unit meant me, a videographer editor, and a reporter. And I thought it was crazy at first. And then the more I thought about it, it seemed like this great adventure. And I have two kids, and I they're both adults, and I asked them, what would you think if I took this job? And they both thought it would be a fantastic thing. So it really was a combination of no one beating down the door, uh, and what an incredible adventure. And it was. But the race that I covered was a woman named Mary Peltola, who had been a who was a state legislator, and she was running against two Republicans. Uh, one was a state official and the other was Sarah Palin. And I don't think people gave her much chance of winning, but she, uh, Alaska native, uh, ended up winning that race, first ever statewide elected Alaska native. When you consider that almost 20% of the population is Alaska native, and they'd never had a governor, uh, a senator, a congressperson before, it was interesting. Now, Alaska's a one congressperson state. It's an at-large district because there aren't even 800,000 people in the whole state.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Uh, you mentioned Sarah Palin. We'll get back to her in in a couple of minutes. I I want to, though, uh sort of circle back to Trump, and I mentioned very early on MAGA, MAGA people. Is the Make America Great Again movement uh a large movement in Alaska? Is that something that a lot of Alaskans identify with?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

It's not a large movement the way you see it in the lower 48. You don't see a lot of people wearing MAGA hats. You don't see as many um bumper stickers or yard signs. Uh but he did carry the state uh all three times he ran, but not like with margins like he would carry at Wyoming or in Idaho. Uh the governor supported him, but was not uh didn't invite him up to campaign with him. So it's it's a little bit, yes, they voted for him, but there's a little bit of a distance between him and people in the state. Uh again, one, this is a true story. When I got up there and I had produced three interviews with Trump over various points in my political career, and I, in a bit of a humble brag, one day in the break room, I brought up Trump and that I had produced interviews for him. Uh, and people didn't seem very interested even in the news business. And then this is true. Somebody said, Hey, there's a moose at the front window. And like everybody, including me, went to look at the moose eating on the bush in the front window.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

So people So when it comes to Donald Trump versus a moose, the moose easy.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

The moose wins every time, and I didn't get to brag on my career.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

You know, that by the way, that would be a very good bumper sticker. The moose wins every time.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

The moose, I'm telling you, now that's a funny thing about Alaskans because you see moose everywhere all the time. You see them just on the street in Anchorage. You really do. I saw them in my front yard all the time. And it was one day I go to work and a moose is blocking the entrance to the building. And yet, when a moose shows up, it's so majestic, you just stop, even if you've seen it a thousand times before, you stop and admire the moose. Yeah, but you know, politicians.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, but you know, being a native New Yorker, I think that if a moose showed up on Fifth Avenue, no one would notice.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Well, there's a there's a difference between Alaskans and New Yorkers, though.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Do you do you think though, and I I know you've been out of Alaska now for what, about a year or so? Yeah, a little over a year. Okay. Uh are you still in contact with folks there at all? All the time. All the time. Do you get the sense that those Alaskans who were supportive, because as you pointed out, Donald Trump did carry uh the state, do you get the sense that the folks who supported him voted for him maybe more than once do they have any kind of sense now of betrayal, or do they think that Donald Trump is doing exactly what they put him in office to do?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

That's a hard one. I don't think, certainly when I was there talking to people, I don't think they view it quite the way people in the lower 48 view it. So, first of all, there are a lot of military bases uh in Alaska. So there's a big military and ex-military community, and I think they like the idea that Trump throws money into the military. So it's very specific things. I think they like some people, and we could talk about environmentalism up there on the split. Some people like that he opened up some new areas to drilling. But there's also a re uh realism there. So one of the things in the you know he wanted to make it easier to open drilling in the Arctic Preserve, but people don't really want the Arctic Preserve messed with, and they know because they live this that drilling in those areas becomes so expensive that it's not real. It's more like for the consumption of people in the lower 48. They know that no big oil company wants to set up a drill rig, certainly not anymore, in these remote areas. It's there's again, there's no road that goes there. You have to build a new road to get to a new drilling area. So I think people have more of a realistic view of things, maybe, than than uh you would expect, because you're not fooling them with stuff like that. They liked it. People definitely thought it was a big deal when Trump met Putin up there. I don't think they cared much about the politics, but they liked the fact that the news media had to come up to Alaska.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

You know, you mentioned that there's a lot of military, and I presume therefore military families, right, in in Alaska. Uh and uh although this podcast, you know, this podcast doesn't go uh live, so when it eventually posts, I'm not quite sure where the United States is going to be vis a vis the current war with Iran, but uh we can certainly say that at the time we're recording this, uh the war is very much ongoing. It seems to be enveloping more uh of the nations of the Middle East. Uh doesn't have a particular end point, although Mr. Trump seems to Go back and forth about either we've already won or we're about to win or someday we will win. It's hard to tell exactly where he's going with this. But because of that military presence in Alaska, do you think that they're supportive of what the United States is doing? This from a man who ran, not once, but three times, on a platform of no more wars, no more forever wars, no more foreign wars?

SPEAKER_00 22:30

This is just a guess, because I haven't done any polling and um it's you know not something that I generally have talked with Alaskans about. But I think that libertarian nature of Alaskans would be more in line with why are we doing this? Why this isn't our fight? Why are we going over there to mess with people that it's not really clear uh what the advantage is. Uh I think, you know, again, to get to the sort of local aspect of Alaska, people are much more concerned with the fact that Russia keeps sending airplanes to test out uh our defenses in the Bering Strait and uh in some of the uh more northern spaces. You know, what is gonna happen in the Arctic uh if the Russians move in there more? And will there be more money to set up this Arctic task force that Trump has talked about? So I think it's it's it's more of a play a place where the local wins out over everything else. Um go ahead. No, I I suspect people in Alaska are a little Trump supporters are a little less supportive of Iran than maybe Trump supporters elsewhere.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

But you mentioned that they're very uh hyper-focused on local, which would mean I would think they're hyper-focused on the price of groceries and the price of fuel, which I would imagine is high in Alaska anyway, as it is here in California, where I am, for various environmental reasons, because of additives that are put into the gas and that kind of thing. Um so that must have some resonance with resonance with them, does it not? That that counter to what the claims were when Mr. Trump was running, these prices are not going down as he claims, but they're going up. And they were going up even before the war in Iran.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah, I didn't check, I should have checked to see what the price of a gallon of gas is in Alaska. It's always high because here's an irony for you a lot of oil comes out of Alaska still, down that pipeline, but there's no refining in Alaska. So it all goes down to California, and when you fill up your gas tank, it's because a tanker has come to give you back the finished product. So next to California, it's the most expensive gas. So people feel that they definitely feel the grocery prices because again, every loaf of, I shouldn't say loaf of bread there is a baker, every can of corn comes in on a freighter from Tacoma. So if the cost of the getting the freighter there is up because of oil prices being up, because of fuel being up, that is reflected more in Alaska than other places. But here's a flip side for you. Alaskans pay no state income tax, no state sales tax, and you get what's called the permanent fund dividend check. Alaskans still get a check for living there, everybody who lives there. It's a thousand to twenty five hundred dollars a year, depending on the price of oil. The higher the price of oil, the higher the tax revenue from the drillers, the more you get back as your personal check for being an Alaska resident. So there's a duality to it. You hate paying more gas at the pump, but if the prices stay high, you might get a bigger check at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

I was going to say, I mean, because uh of uh, and again, I don't know at the time this podcast posts what the situation uh will be in terms of uh uh Iran and the Strait of Hamoz. But again, as we're recording this, uh that strait from which I think what is I think it's 20% of the uh oil in the in the world passes through is effectively shut down uh because of threats more than actions on the part of Iran, and also because insurance companies just don't want to ensure uh tankers going through an area that where they may end up being literally blown out of the water. So, because of that, as you know, oil prices keep going up. So, does that mean that people who live in Alaska are going to therefore be more supportive of all of what's going on now between the U.S. and Iran because they are benefiting financially?

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Yeah, I I do know that the governor of Alaska just last week sent a new budget number to the state legislature uh that was based on oil being between $90 and $100 a barrel, which meant all of the states, most of the state's financial budgetary issues would disappear if next year or for the rest of this year uh oil were to stay at that rate. Uh so yes, there is some perverse interest in the state of Alaska. The longer this goes on, the better it is for state revenue and personal revenue. Now, I don't know that people are thinking about it in exactly those terms, but once the governor says, hey, high oil prices, better for everybody in the state, you know, people do think about that. I'm telling the PFD is such a bizarre thing. Every you get the check around the 1st of October, and as soon as it gets close to that date, it's the happiest day for local media because they're selling all these radio and TV and newspaper ads. Use your PFD money to get your new heating system, use your PFD money to take a vacation, use your PFD money to buy furniture. So it's very much in people's minds. And if they got an extra $500 this year, they'd be happy.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Well, let's look ahead. Uh, what do you think? You mentioned that that Alaska is a one congressperson state, um, two senators, right, but one congressperson. Uh the midterm elections coming up in the states in November, high stakes, obviously, because uh the Democrats, the party that opposes Mr. Trump, want very much to take over the House, and they have a wish list that would include the Senate, although I'm not quite sure that that one is going to happen. Um yet you have a state that's libertarian, but they vote Republican, right? Um so does that mean that it's not likely that Alaskans are going to all of a sudden decide, oh, we want to have a Democratic uh uh congressperson?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I well, in Congress, uh I think it's likely the Republican will hold on to his seat. He beat Mary Peltola in the last race, close election. But Peltola is running against Dan Sullivan and that for the Senate seat. And that is now considered not a toss-up. I think Sullivan's still the favorite, but Peltola is absolutely in that race. And if you believe that national trends of Democrats maybe running three, four, five, six points ahead of where they have run, that's very winnable for Peltola. Uh Dan Sullivan is an interesting senator. He had been governor, I believe. He's very well known in the state, but he's quiet. You don't hear much from him in Washington. He supports Trump, but he's not a guy who seeks out, you know, meet the press to talk about how much he loves Trump. And he and Lisa Murkowski, when they were uh getting the big, beautiful budget bill through, they both, and they got criticism outside Alaska for this, but they got loved in Alaska, they got a lot of money for health care in Alaska. Special carve-out money. So that's a benefit for him. But I think from what I've seen, who I the people I've talked to, you would say that Sullivan would be a favorite, but not a shoe-win. But if it is a big night for Democrats nationwide, Peltola absolutely is in that race. And that's a money, that's a race that the Democratic Party is considering throwing some national money in.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

When was the last time Alaska voted for a Democrat for the presidency?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

I'd have to go look that one up. It might I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

It was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

It was a long time ago. It was a long time ago. You were there it's like a 55-45 kind of thing. It's not 60-40 like you know, like I say, Idaho or Wyoming or West Virginia have been.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

But from the couple of years that you spent in Alaska, and for what you know of Alaska, can you envision in 2028 Alaska throwing its support to a Democrat for the White House?

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yes. Uh now I am out of the prediction market because I think anyone who tries to make predictions more than about six minutes from now is fighting a losing battle. But you could game out where the economy really doesn't do well for the next three years. Uh and I think that Alaskans would absolutely be willing to consider a Democrat of a certain type. Look, uh if if Harris were to be the nominee again, I don't think she ever wins Alaska. Andy Bashir of Kentucky, I could see him, I'd absolutely see him beating, let's say, J.D. Vance, uh, if the economy is not good.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Because uh of the economy alone, or because J.D. Vance or or maybe Marco Rubio, the current secretary of of state, uh would have too much of a Trump taint on them.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

I think economy would really push people in Alaska if the economy is bad. I also think, and here I'm gonna I am gonna say something political about people, and it I'm not talking about the politics of it. I've covered a lot of politicians in my life: presidential races, senate, governor, mayor, city, aldermen. I don't think I've I can't remember another politician who tries to be humorous the way Vance does and fails so miserably. I've been around other politicians, many, who don't have a great sense of humor. They don't keep trying to tell jokes, they work on some other aspect of their personality. They are wonky, like, you know, this is gonna be old-fashioned, but the way Michael Dukakis was. Uh, they are patriotic and a nice person, like the first George Bush presented himself. Uh, even someone like Newt Gingrich, who I covered a lot, maybe not the nicest person off camera, but he understood his strength was, you know, I'm the great strategist. And that was the way he always portrayed himself, and it worked for him. I just think Vance doesn't portray himself in a way that feels authentic. So I feel like he's um not going to be the strongest candidate. And if you believe what political reporters and even Trump himself is saying, I think Trump right now, today, is starting to feel that way. Uh, there's a lot of reporting that Marco Rubio is becoming a little more of Trump's choice to take over. And I think that makes sense. I mean, Marco Rubio seems smart as he portrays himself and as he when he does interviews. I'm not again, I'm not talking about his politics here. I'm just saying I think he presents more presidential and more uh people can identify with him more than they can with Vance. Vance is uniquely awkward to me.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Uh yeah, I I think that when uh the uh late show on CBS with Stephen Colbert goes off the air, I don't think I agree with you. I don't think JD Vance is likely to become a new host of a late-night talk show on on the network. But let me ask you.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Because politicians have to politicians, good politicians understand what their strengths are. And I know a lot of people, half the country, whatever, dislike Donald Trump. Trump understands what his strength is very clearly. He knows that never saying he's sorry, never backing down, always being the tough guy, that's his persona. And it has worked for him in ways that a lot of people, including me, didn't imagine. So, but he understands himself. I just feel like some politicians don't quite get that.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Do you think people in in uh and I I I'm loath to uh uh sort of paint with too broad of a brush, but do you think that a lot of people in Alaska anyway get the fact that Trump is transparently corrupt?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

So you've hit on something that, again, as I think about my reporting work, that's been one of the great mysteries to me, not just from Alaska, but nationwide. There are so many real issues where Trump, his family, his friends benefit directly from investments that have to do with the government or deals that are made. And I I'm mystified by why that hasn't um stuck to them. And I I know if somebody has said, and some of his supporters have said this, well, Trump is transparent about it. I mean, I guess in a way he is. But this would have, Charles, you know this, this would have destroyed any other White House up until now. Any one of these things would have wiped it out politically, and the supporters would have been running for the other shore, and it just doesn't seem to have any real effect.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Well, do you think that's because uh Trump and a large part of his movement are essentially it's a cult, an occult movement, and uh you know it it's people in a cult don't like to admit that they're cult leaders doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

I think his supporters are gonna support him no matter what. That is true. But I also think, you know, I it's I don't hear his opposition focusing on the corruption angle. I think part of it is that the Democratic Party, and you see this, um I think you see this in their in their own numbers, has still, after all this time, hasn't figured out a strategy to go after him. Not a consistent, here's our one or two messages. You know, I I feel like the strategy is I'm sending out a social media message furiously saying enough. There, how's that? I mean, you know, that's not a strategy. Like you have to beat Trump with something else. And I don't think voters.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

I'm sorry? No, no, I was gonna say I was interrupting to say, do you think when you say something else, would Alaskans vote for president now for somebody like California Governor Gavin Newsom, or is he too slick for Alaskans?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

I think he'd be a harder sell. Uh I think uh yeah, I think the slickness question might harm him. Uh I think you know, Alaskans like someone, they definitely like people who have an independent streak to them, but they also tend to vote for people who seem like they're gonna do the work. And so if any one of your viewers could uh or listeners could tell me who the congressp is right now, his name is Begich. He comes from a very long line of politicians in Alaska, both Democrat and Republican. Uh, if they could tell me who the governor was, I'd be surprised because these are not people who his name is Dunleavy, by the way. Um, these are not people who seek attention. They, for good or bad, they they kind of focus on the work. Uh, and so I think that kind of candidate could appeal um to uh to the electorate up there. And Newsom, I don't know, you know him better than I do, but I don't think that if you were listing his qualities, number one would not be does the hard work.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Yeah, uh no, I mean I he would probably say he does, but I I think it's fair to say he probably doesn't. You mentioned uh uh in the very beginning, uh a name that a lot of people haven't heard uh in the States for quite some time, and maybe uh people in other parts of the planet maybe never heard of, and that's Sarah Palin. And Sarah Palin, uh for those who don't know, uh for a relatively brief period uh of American political history, uh had the spotlight on her in a very fierce way. I mean, she was uh a serious candidate uh in the vice presidential slot. There was a a real possibility she could have ended up being uh the first woman vice president, as opposed to Kamala Harris, who ended up in that uh position. Uh and she comes from the state you just left, not connected in any way, I'm sure, but uh from the state of Alaska. Does the heart of Sarah Pellin still beat?

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Not really anymore. So one of the things that again she was she wrote a rocket ship to national attention enough that Tina Faye did a regular imitation of her on Saturday Night Live. Uh and she took the rocket ship back down. I think people have forgotten that in the middle, she was governor of Alaska when she was picked by John McCain. She quit that job after she and McCain lost. Now that was not appreciated by Alaskans. Again, people who like someone who does the work do not like that you quit. That's a bad thing. So then three years ago, she decides she's gonna make a comeback and she's running for Congress. And almost everyone in the state, her friends and political enemies said it was a bad idea. But she ran, and so you had this race where the Democrat was polling in the 40s, mid-high 40s, and she was splitting uh the vote with the Republican, and she ended up getting into a run. Well, in I take it back, it's not a runoff, it's rank choice. So there's all this I don't want to get into the details of rank choice because it would bore people, but it looked like it was going to be very close, but it turned out not to be that close. That's the race that Mary Peltola won statewide uh for Congress, and one of the reasons was that she was going on. National TV, she'd go on Fox News, she'd go on Newsmax, she'd go on talk shows, and she would tell a story that the local media was refusing to interview her and refusing to write about her. Now, this was not true, but she would use it to raise her national profile and also to raise money nationally. But in Alaska, people kind of knew that it wasn't true. What they knew was that she was avoiding the media. And I took it upon myself as the producer of the uh political pipeline podcast, say that three times fast, in Alaska, to try to track her down for an interview. And I used every offer that I could think of, including, I said, I'll put you on the podcast unedited. We'll talk for half an hour and we'll just talk. And we didn't even get responses. So it was driving me crazy that she was going on these national shows and telling a lie. It was a lie. So one day I took a camera crew out. I knew where she was going to be, and we basically staked her out in an old-fashioned network kind of way, which is not usually done in Alaska, but I felt like in this case it was a good idea since we wanted to make the point that she either could talk to us or not. And I talked to her before the event. She promised she would talk to me. I talked to her people during the event. We promised she'll come to this spot. Well, you know, I've been around this business a long time. So I started to see that she had no intention of talking to us. She was going to make an escape. So I told my camera person, let's go out by her car. I saw what car she came in. So sure enough, she goes out a back door, but we're waiting for her, along with a reporter from the Anchorage Daily News and reporter from Anchorage, Alaska Public Radio, because they too could never get an interview with her, despite her claims. And she just ignores all of us walking by, hurrying to her car. And I yell out to her, not in a nasty way, but I did raise my voice. I said, Sarah, why won't you talk to us? You keep saying no one will talk to you or interview you. And she got to her car, she turned around, she gave me a thumbs up, got in the car and drove away. The next day in the newspaper, it was there was actually a mention of, and Sarah Palin refused a yelled request from the TV reporter to do it. But I just felt like that was one of those cases, and I was trying totally transparent about it, both on TV and on the podcast. To me, that's not political. Some people, I'm sure her supporters saw that as political. I just felt like if you're gonna go say something one place that isn't true, I'm gonna show that you're not telling the truth. Because I have tried a half dozen times, and now here's the visual and audio proof that people have been trying to interview you, and you're the one walking away. So she lost, and since then, I don't even know if she spends much, if any, time, still in Alaska. I know that she's been in New York, uh, where she's has a uh it's an this is not a secret, I wouldn't say this if it wasn't public. She's been dating a former New York Ranger, so she spends a lot of time in New York now.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Her uh propensity for not telling the truth, she shares that with President Trump, uh, who is noteworthy for often not telling the truth, and transparently so. Uh you know, and you've been, as you've mentioned, uh covering politics and politicians for a long time now. Yes, politicians have always to some degree shaded the truth and to uh pretend that something new would be kind of like in Casablanca being absolutely shocked that there's gambling going on at Rick's casino. Uh but on the other hand, do you think that it has gotten to a different point, a a different level of politicians not only lying, but almost being proud of not telling the truth? And when they're caught, continue to lie about their lie.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yes. Yes. You want more? I have a question for you. Have you ever wondered? Because I have wondered and I have talked to friends still in the business about this, and friends who have left the business, do journalists who cover, particularly Washington, but elsewhere, I had this issue with the mayor of Anchorage. So it's politicians everywhere. If politicians are routinely going to lie to you, to tell you things that demonstrably are untrue, do you need to come up with a different way to cover them? If people are going to go on these national talk shows, you ask a question and they either never answer it or pretend that they've never heard of the thing you're asking them about. Like, I'm sorry, I don't believe that the speaker of the House doesn't know as much as he claims not to know about. I just think that job, it's impossible to be as ignorant of things in the news as he claims. So if people are going to routinely not tell you the truth, why do you keep having them on your shows? Why do you keep interviewing them? Is there a different way to get at this that discourages everybody from that kind of process, which now is widespread throughout the country? People just don't want to answer a question. They feel like they don't have to. That journalists don't have the power anymore to take them down or whatever it is. So, what's your answer to that question?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Well, as as you said, yes, yes, yes. Uh uh I'll I'll I'll give you my answer. Uh I uh it's a complicated one, but we have the time, so what the hell? Uh I think that one of the worst things that ever happened to politics was uh All News Television, the company that you and I both worked for, CNN. Uh yes, it was preceded by All News Radio, but I it not on the same scale, uh I think as CNN and then Fox, of course, and MSNBC, which is now, I forgot, MS Now or whatever, whatever it's called. Um I think that because uh cable networks, CNN realized very early on that there really wasn't 24 hours of news seven days a week, barring some worldwide catastrophe like a war, they needed to fill airtime. And uh so up came the live you know coverage, live news conferences with various politicians. And and you know that before that happened, before all news television, that didn't exist. Every interview was always edited. And so if you went uh to talk to a politician, maybe you spoke for a half hour, maybe you spoke for an hour, whatever, then you would go back, whether you were a newspaper reporter or a television reporter, you'd go through it. Uh, maybe you would have some time to uh you know check whether or not what that politician said was factual. If you caught a inconsistency before airtime, you could always reach out to that person or their people and say, hey, the the congressman said blah, blah, blah, but uh I see here that that's not exactly the case. Would he or she like to go on the record and change it? You know, you would give you the opportunity to think through what was being put on the air. Once politicians realized that they can go on television live and pretty much uninterrupted with the impossibility of fact-checking in real time. It's just not possible.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Um even when you do it, it's not effective because we all know the fact check. Even in the old days where a newspaper would do a fact check or a correction, it it doesn't carry the same impact. Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

So I I think the biggest disservice, there are many good things about all news, you know, television, radio, but I think the biggest disservice has to the body politic has been live interviews, live press conferences with politicians and and presidents, uh certainly in included, because you're right, when you have uh a governor, or you have a congressperson, or you have the president doing a State of the Union thing, and you carry it live, you can tick off afterwards all the things that were wrong. You know, Donald Trump just did a State of the Union and it was filled, just filled with certifiably inaccurate statements, another way of putting it, lies. But by the time the commentators get around, and I think that was your point, to being able to correct the record, well, half the public is already asleep at that point. And so they're left with the live interview, and in their minds, well, the president, the governor, the whoever it is, why wouldn't they tell us the truth? I mean, of course, of course. I I think it was the worst development. Um, and I think that that's part of the reason. And then the other part is Donald Trump. Uh, I think he is, you can you know say all kinds of things about Donald Trump, and I have, and many others have as well, but he is masterful at manipulating the media. He is, I mean, you could he could run a course, a legitimate course this time, and make a fortune legitimately in teaching people how to manipulate the media. He is a champion at at doing it. And I think that uh he has cast a huge shadow, and that other politicians now say if the president of the United States can get up there and say lie after lie after lie after lie after lie, why can't I? And they do. That's my view.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Well, this was uh you agree or disagree, or you know, I think this is funny, and I did put it in my book in a only slightly exaggerated way. Um We had been trying to get the mayor of Anchorage to talk to us about an issue of whether all the COVID money had been appropriately spent. And that is an issue that every governor, mayor, county commissioner, Democrat, Republican, or independent has had to deal with because so much money went through the system, there was a lot of fraud. Well, he didn't want to talk about it, and he avoided us at all uh occasions, and he never had news conferences. Well, one day he uh we get a note at the station that he's having a news conference to dedicate some new piece of fire equipment. So, of course, the regular news went there, but I also went there with my crew uh as the investigative unit because we wanted our own chance to ask him a question. And his press person came up to me before the news conference even began, and he said, This is a news conference to talk about fire equipment. It's not a news conference to talk about what you want to talk about. And I said, Well, when you invite the press to a news conference that suggests a news conference, not a speech where we only take questions that we want to answer. And he actually said to me, I don't know how they do things in New York, but we don't do them like that in Alaska. I you could read a whole lot of things into that, but it didn't stop us from asking the question. But I think about the idea of a politician saying, I'm gonna have a news conference, but I only want to take questions that I want to take. But and Trump says that all the time. He did it yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

And I and I tell you something else. I I I I think that, you know, uh, you know, I did also, there's a portion of my career where where I did a lot of print uh magazine work and uh some newspaper stuff too. And I I I I still maintain that with rare exceptions, most people on camera or on microphone if it's radio don't actually tell you the truth. I I think uh I think you get the best, and which is why I think newspapers tend to break lots of stories. And usually the biggest stories they break when you read it, it always has the same phrase. Sources say, anonymous, you know, people who don't want to give their their names say. And that's not because they're being coy with their readership, although some readers probably think that. It's because they know that in order to get real information, most people are going to be afraid to put it on the record. It doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true, it's the opposite. It probably is true, and that's why they're willing to talk to, say, a newspaper reporter or a wire service uh reporter, Reuters Associated Press. Um, I think that television and radio, it's a performance medium by design. And I think that people tend to not be uh really that honest. With the there are some notable exceptions. There are some people I've interviewed through the years who are exactly the same on camera as they are off camera. But I also know, and and I'm sure you've had this uh happen as well, uh David, that there are people who you talk to maybe when you're setting up an interview, and they'll tell you all kinds of great things, and then you put them on camera and it just doesn't come together. They they they all of a sudden become they qualify everything or they they don't want to go certain places. I I think that's part of the huge problem.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Look, that happens in investigative work frequently. People sound a little braver on the phone, then they think about it, they think about the consequences. You know, I worked with a great correspondent once who told me that before she ever interviews a whistleblower, she explains to them that whistleblowers rarely come out okay. The consequences of being the person who publicly is the face of bringing down a corporation or a politician is is harsh. And so she wanted people to understand that. And I disagree with you, I agree with you about your basic point, but I think we're at a time now where we just have to be more transparent about stuff as reporters. People expect it and they need it, and and reporters are so distrusted that I'll give you one example. If I read one more story quoting an unnamed Republican senator as opposing the president, I will scream out loud so my neighbors hear it because I don't even believe that that's true anymore. I there was a time when I believed it. Now I think they're playing the reporters because they want the reporter to keep coming to them. They like the access. And so they tell them, yeah, you know, I know the president doesn't make sense here, but I can't go public. And then they do a story about how there's growing anti-Trump feelings in the caucus, and I just don't think that's true. I think every everybody's playing everybody now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

All right, all right, but if everyone's playing everybody, and I don't I don't, by the way, disagree with that, uh, David, but if everyone is playing everybody, and politicians are now, you know, far more prone to to proudly tell uh untruths, and I'm being diplomatic, um how does this republic go forward?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

You know, I don't have an answer for that. I think about it all the time, I worry about it, I wish things hadn't changed the way they are, but I don't know how if we're all not all of us, I don't want to overstate this, if so many of us are A getting information from a silo that never is challenged, and so we're our beliefs are reinforced, or B, and this is even more dangerous, just throwing your hands up and saying, I don't trust anybody, they're never gonna do anything, they're never gonna care about me. Why do I even want to participate in this system? And there's a lot of polling that shows that may be the greater risk now is particularly young people don't even think that our current form of government is necessarily the best form of government. So it's really worrisome. And if I had an answer, I think I'd be running CNN now.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

You don't want to wish that on your worst anymore. Not anymore. David Bernkoff, uh, author of a new uh novel coming out, and I'll hold it up again. And then uh and it's called Two Years on Another Planet, or is it Alaska?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Can I quickly say www.twoyearsbook.com. Very good.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

Okay. Uh David Burnkoff, thank you for being with us on this episode of SOS America. And for those of you uh who have uh watched or listened to us in the past several months, we of course uh always encourage your comments. And uh if you'd like to subscribe, it is totally free. So uh we welcome that as well. Until the next uh episode of SOS America, I'm Charles Feldman. Thank you for being with us.