British Journalist Tony Evans tells America the TRUTH

How do people in Britain really see America in 2026? How much influence does Donald Trump have beyond the United States? And what do our closest allies actually think about America's political divide?

In this episode of SOS America, Charles Feldman is joined by acclaimed British journalist and author Tony Evans for a fascinating transatlantic conversation about politics, leadership, media, and the special relationship between the United Kingdom and the United States.

Together they discuss:
- How Britain views America today
- Donald Trump's influence on UK politics and world leaders
- Why American elections matter across the globe
- The differences between British and American political culture
- How the media shapes public opinion on both sides of the Atlantic
- The "special relationship" between the US and UK
- Whether political polarization is spreading internationally
- Tony Evans' thoughts on Donald Trump as a political figure
Whether you're in America, Britain, or anywhere else in the world, this episode offers an insightful outside perspective on one of the most influential countries on Earth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

For want of a better word, Trumpetation of politics over here, the likes of Farage and Tommy Robinson have seen the Trump playbook and have tried to adapt it to the United Kingdom. I think if if things continue this way, despite Trump's core, I think he's gonna take a very big beat in the midterms. And I, for one, will be cheering on whoever gives him a beat in the past. There is a British tendency to make a joke out of everything. And Trump is obviously the butt of much humour over here. And so people like sort of laugh at Trump, but it's a fearful laugh. Well, it's if you were to tell the founding fathers 250 years ago, you know, that they're gonna celebrate with their stage professionals on the White House lawn, and wonder they've strapped the Constitution and just come back to King George, it's way below the dignity of the office of President of the United States. He's erratic, he's completely and utterly untrustworthy. He's a predator, I mean, in every area of life, and he will take advantage of any weakness. And so that leads ultimately to a fear, and I think the British people will be absolutely delighted, on the whole, when Trump's term in office ends.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Welcome to another edition of SOS America. I'm your host, Charles Feldman. Thanks for joining us if you're watching or you're listening. And you know then that for the past almost year now, we have been exploring together the question: what is actually happening at this point in time here in the U.S.? And we've asked that question to a wide variety of experts, uh, journalists, physicians, attorneys, academics, you name it. Uh, but pretty much all of them have been here in the U.S. So for this particular episode, we thought it would be interesting to hear the view from somebody, not just anybody, of course, but someone who is knowledgeable, we think, uh, from the other side of the Atlantic and how they view what is currently happening here in the States. So, our guest for this episode is Tony Evans. He is a very experienced and very widely respected journalist in the UK. He has written for such publications as The Times, The Observer, The Sunday Times. He's often known as a sports journalist, but uh his expertise goes very far and wide beyond the world of sports, touching on everything from uh culture to media, and of course to the world of politics. He's also an author, and we are pleased to have him as our guest on this episode. Tony, thanks for being with us. Oh, it's a pleasure, Charles.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Um, and to put into a little bit more context as well. I spent seven years living in the United States, which is more than a tenth of my life. And uh I look upon what's happening now from across the Atlantic with absolute bewilderment.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Okay, so that's a good starting off point. Um, and I presume when you lived here, and maybe that's the bad presumption, were you were uh working here as a journalist at the time?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Uh I got into journalism in the States. Um, the first paper I worked for was the San Gabriel Valley Tribune. Um and then I worked for the Daily Bulletin in Ontario, California. So that's how uh got into the business. And um, yeah, and I mean that was back. I was living in California more than 30 years ago. But the the the atmosphere, the environment, and the outlook of Americans appear to be very different to the one I experienced, which was a really welcoming, um, a really welcoming sort of feeling from them. And it's uh things have turned very much more insular, it seems, and aggressive. And that's happening everywhere. In Britain, we have our own problems with a similar sort of mentality, but it seems to have run wild in the United States under Trump.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

So so actually it that raises an interesting question. When you talk about this happening uh worldwide, and I I suspect you're talking uh not only about the UK, but you have a a right-wing sort of tilt now in in France, certainly in Germany and a lot of other places. Um is it a sort of uh for lack of a better word, is it sort of a virus that's that's spreading? Uh and is the focal point of that infection Donald Trump?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Oh, I think it goes wider than Trump, but yes, he is the focal point. I mean, I I go back to Bill Clinton and it's the economy, stupid. And we've seen uh certainly neo-liberalism from the days of Thatcher and Reagan, we've seen the biggest transfer of wealth from the middle earners to the very, very high earners, and and this is the internet age has pushed them along at a faster, increasingly faster pace. So we've seen that. Um you know, the uh the credit crunch had a huge impact on Europe in 2008, and uh uh the rise of the right really uh began seriously at that point. But the United States seems to have done well out of the in the post-credit crunch world, and yet still Trump come along and would seem to be a lightning rod for every fear the American people have, and yet, unlike lightning rods, he won't protect them. In fact, he'll damage them, and it's damaging them so badly, it's unbelievable, at least it seems from the perspective of sitting here in London, a mile from the Houses of Parliament.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Well, from your perspective in London, when you see or read about various things that that the Trump administration is is doing, do you how how do you look at that? I mean, are is it a a sense of uh are you shocked? Are you maybe it's past the point of being shocked anymore? But but what is your your general feeling when you pick up the paper in the morning or turn on the TV or radio and you hear the latest thing that is coming out of the White House?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

It's it's I'm aghast. There is a British tendency to make a joke out of everything, and Trump is is obviously the butt of much humour over here. You know, it's uh I mean, you know, I'm not saying that it's a direct comparison here, but Hitler, one of the things that that saved the British in the Second World War, apart from the United States, that is, was their sense of humour and the ability to see a dictator in a humorous fashion. Charlie Chaplin obviously is a great example of that. And so people like sort of laugh at Trump, but it's a fearful laugh because you don't know what he's gonna do. He's completely and utterly untrustworthy. And the punchline might turn out not to be a line, but an actual punch, and Britain might be on the receiving end, as other countries have, and he's erratic, he's completely and utterly untrustworthy, he's a predator, I mean, in every area of life, and he will take advantage of any weakness, and so that that leads ultimately to a fear, and I think the British people will be absolutely delighted, on the whole, when Trump's term in office ends.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

But when it ends, I'm presuming it it it will, I hope it will, although, as you know, he's got this sort of fantasy, or at least some of his supporters have a fantasy that he's going to run unconstitutionally for a third term. I don't think that's going to happen. But when he leaves, there's still the problem of the 70, what was it, 70, 77 million plus Americans who voted for him? Some have become disenchanted, I suspect, because of the way the economy is now. But still he's got a sizable number of Americans who still are very supportive of him and his ideas. Does that frighten you that that momentum may be unstoppable regardless of whether or not Donald Trump is in the White House?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, to a certain extent. But I think what we're seeing as well, and not just in the United States, but across the world, is a restructuring of the political landscape. And Trump is part of that. I suspect that many of the people around him, like Vance, uh, are actually pragmatists who are acting in a way working towards Trump's goals, but would would probably perform differently if he wasn't around. I mean, they they're uh more concerned with power, and I think there will be as particularly as uh people become aware of how much of a failure this Iranian adventure was, I think there will become more disillusionment, and we'll see people begin and and I think we we actually have begun to see it, people begin to distance themselves slightly from Trump, and I think that that will happen. But yeah, whenever whenever uh people politicians play to prejudice and try to inflame hatred, it's a dangerous situation, and the residue of the Trump era will last oh probably a couple of decades. I just hope it doesn't outlive me.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Hopefully not. When the United States does something, when the president does something, tariffs, certainly the war uh in Iran with Iran, it clearly has an impact on countries all over the world because of just the size of the US and and and uh the the weight that we we pull on the world's economy. How has the Trump administration directly impacted, for example, it will personalize it. Has it impacted your life as somebody living in in the UK? And and if so, how?

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, without a doubt, I mean prices have gone up massively. Um it it's the the rate of inflation is ridiculous. Food prices, certainly petrol, gas, as Americans would say, has gone up. And also British policy has changed, British state policy is changing uh and because of what's going on in the United States. I mean, the old the old cliche is when America sneezes, Britain catches a cold. Uh certainly I think that that is true. And I've long, although I'm very, very affectionate towards the United States and its people, as I say, haven't lived there, but I've long been suspicious of this idea of a special relationship. You know, it's a it's only it's only special when it goes in Washington's favour. Um so that that that is a little bit of a a concern, but yeah, and there's also been a for want of a better word, Trumpization of politics over here. The likes of Farage and Tommy Robertson have seen the Trump playbook and have tried to adapt it to the United Kingdom. I think ultimately it will fail, but there is a great sense. Trump is a shadow over Britain, and you can feel its uh effects, you can fight feel the effects of this shadow in terms of your pocketbook, because as I say, prices have gone up in a manner which they didn't go up in the first Trump term or before. And uh but it's also a metaphysical threat, which is a really big concern to the whole politics of what we once considered the Western bloc, but now we can't look at it that way anymore.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

And and yet it's interesting because you know I I I do some um political analysis for LBC Radio uh there at the UK, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Oh, I've heard you on it. Yeah. Oh, okay. Very good, very good. Thank you. I appreciate it. But you know, while I'm on hold often, uh I get to hear some of the people who are calling in, because it's a talk, as you know, it's a talk uh format. Uh and and sometimes I'm surprised at people who call in who seem very supportive of Donald Trump. Uh and I've heard that to my astonished ears. Uh, where and sometimes they're arguing with whomever the host happens to be at that particular hour, and they seem to the like, you know, they say, Oh, we, you know, we think he's doing a great job, or he's doing this. And I I have to admit that when I'm on hold listening to that, I sometimes want to kind of reach through the the phone and grab these people and say, What are you talking about? How is this man in any way, shape, or form helping your your life? How do you account for that?

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Well, I think there's a couple of things going on. I think as someone who's also worked on a lot of uh shows where the people have been phone phoning and you tend to get the same people over and over again, and they're highly motivated. I don't want to use the word crank, but I'll use the word crank. They're the you know the the cranks, but uh on on the other point, yeah, reaching through the phone, the the tech bros who have done so much damage to our political system, they haven't invented the one thing that I really want to be a cyber punch or a telephone punch where you could reach down the line or through the screen, grab people and shape them. You know, it's uh but yes, there are there is a small core of people in Britain who see Trump and his methods as the way forward. But I have to say, I think a lot of that is underpinned by racism, and they're extremely attracted by the the undercurrents of white supremacy in the Trump regime.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

You know, you mentioned before uh this notion of a special relationship uh between the US and and the UK. And I and I agree with you, it it does tend to be a relationship that's somewhat one one-sided from the US point of view. But that being said, there is this relationship uh that the US has with NATO, uh, and and yes, with the UK. And I'm wondering from your point of view, how fractured is that relationship now, in particular now with NATO, and is that repairable uh after the Trump years, or is it going to take decades, uh, if ever, to sort of put those pieces back together again?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I think there'll be a high level of suspicion, Charles, but I think the in Britain and across Europe, we realize that the world needs America as an engaged partner in uh in the politics wider than just the you know the continental United States and and obviously Hawaii and Alaska. But um the world needs uh America. And I think uh one thing, and I see a lot of it online, I should stay offline, and people uh you know, Europeans hate Americans. We don't, you know, it's we we actually think that it's a great country, it's it's defined it defined the culture of the 20th century and played a huge part in defeating fascism, uh a massive part, and the the people of Europe will forever be grateful for it. But in a time of renewed danger when Russia are clearly a threat, when China is, I mean, uh I don't think people took think enough about what China are doing and how they are running their economy and the potential threat they pose on a wider level to the West. Um at a time like this, uh the United States uh not only seems to I mean, we know that in the past there's been um, you know, sort of insularity and you know isolation from the United States, you know, back you know, between the two world wars, the idea that America first and you know, and that yeah, that's unacceptable. But this goes beyond that. It's not America first, it's Trump first. He's not doing it for the greater good of the United States, he's doing it for the greater good of himself. And if we do if if if if you do get a president who it becomes clear that he is engaged politically for the benefit of his people, I think trust will come back very, very quickly. Because Britain, France, Germany want to trust America to a large extent, not completely, of course, but you know, because no country can ever completely trust another, but they want to be partners with the United States, and uh Trump has burnt a lot of bridges, but they I think they will rebuild relatively quickly. Whether the economy will recover a pace is a different question.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

But but can can that trust at this point ever really be reconstituted? It it isn't it kind of like uh a marriage, and when one partner is caught cheating, uh, you know, even if if that party says, okay, it's never gonna happen again, there's always gonna be a little bit of that suspicion, right? Um and after the first Trump term, and Joe Biden comes in, you know, a lot of the the world took a uh, you know, sort of a sigh of relief, I think. And they said, oh, the U.S. is back to normal, you know, because Joe Biden was pro, you know, NATO, yes. He was pro-the special relationship or whatever you want to call it between the US and the UK. He was everything that Trump is not. Then, four years later, we are not just back where we were. One could argue we're worse than we were during the first Trump term. So, how can the world ever really feel secure again, if they ever did, in the reliability of the United States as a true ally?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

I'd like to think, and I think a lot of people in in Britain and in Europe think this is that Trump's a one-off. You won't find a character like him who will reach the White House who is so venal and so such such an appalling human being. Um and we we don't think I think many of us think it was an accident of history in the sense of a lot of different um events occurred, which pushed them to the forefront, and also you know, we have uh I mean the influence of Russia in the elections and the influence of people like Elon Musk. Hopefully, the world will learn from that and begin to put in some some checks and balances to stop that sort of uh manipulation of the public, you what one would hope. Uh I know there are lots of people working on those ideas at the moment, but yeah, I mean in terms of a marriage, I the analogy is perfect, Charles, except divorce Trump, divorce Trump, and that's a start. Trust will start to rebuild as soon as he's out the door.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

But who gets who gets his children though?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

You know, uh well, hopefully federal prison.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Let me you know, uh let me make a uh uh a sort of slight detour here because uh part of, as we mentioned, uh a large part of your career has also been sports journalism. So I'm curious what your thoughts are of uh at at the time we are recording this episode, uh just the other day, uh in honor apparently of Mr. Trump's 80th birthday, although he claims it's it was partly to celebrate the 250th uh anniversary of the US uh independence from the UK, from England, um he had this rather interesting, I guess it's a sports uh spec spectacle, uh on the lawn of the White House uh with a sort of ultra fighting competition. What, as a as somebody who's done a lot of sports journalism, what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Well, it's it if you would have told the farms and fathers 250 years ago, you know, that they're gonna celebrate with the with uh stage professional wrestling on the White House lawn, I wonder would they've scrapped the constitution and just gone back to King George? Um it's it's it it it's insane. It's it's a vanity project and it's way below the dignity of the office of president of the United States. And I I mean it's mind-boggling. You know, the World Cup that's taken place, obviously, in uh in North America, Mexico, Canada, as well as the US, is Trump is in and and and the Trump's department's uh interfering heavily in that. You know, the the the treatment of some of the teams from Africa, the Iranian team is appalling, could never have happened at any other World Cup, and FIFA bent over backwards. And this has been a common theme in my career where sports and politics crossed over. That's one of my areas of expertise. So um, you know, we we've seen people are talking about it in Europe as this being the Trump World Cup, and that's made it one of the great celebrations of global togetherness has been marred. The football will prevail and survive, but when people will look back at this World Cup, they'll look back on it like uh 1934, the Mussolini World Cup in Italy, uh the 1978 in Argentina, you know, the um uh uh the the World Cup of the Generals, you know, it's uh in a year where we've seen ICE shooting Americans, citizens on the streets, and you look at it and you go, that is not reasonable. That it, you know, the the and you have other people who are um freeze-framing uh the incidents to try and prove that the police officers were actually justified. You think this this is an insane world, and certainly it's uh it's it's an America that is excusing perpetrators, and the biggest per well, one of the biggest perpetrators is in the White House, and for for uh for political purposes, for purposes of dogma, and it it really it's it's something that I mean you know in my lifetime there's been some bad presidents. I mean, you know, what one president has been was you know in a very senior position in the CIA, that's gotta be a pretty bad uh you know Richard Nixon, but oh yeah, no, no one has been anywhere near as bad as Trump, and no one has negatively had an impact on the dignity of the United States like Trump. And and I think that that's one of the hardest things. You look at the tourism figures, the people who are not going from Europe because of Trump. You look at the the World Cup, there are great crowds, and the atmosphere is fantastic, but still the hotels lost a lot of money because people decided not to go because of fear of Trump, because of fear of ice. And you know, it was so far from give me your porn huddled masses. And I think everyone for for my lifetime, everyone in Europe, sort of not everyone, obviously, but most of us locked up to the United States. Now we're not looking up, we're disturbed, we're depressed.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

You know, you mentioned in the uh beginning uh of the episode that you lived here in the states for some, I think you said seven years.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Um yeah. Would you live in the US now?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

No, no, not at all. Not at all. Um, I think for me, uh, and you know, this obviously is not directly Trump, but one of the big tipping points was Sandy Hooch. You know, the moment when you realize that it's you know, I understand that the rich people, the politicians, don't care about shootings in the ghetto, and you know, and and they can put that out of the minds. But when you see a bunch of you know little white little kids being shot with automatic weapons, and not only that, the right wing try to deny it happened and and and claim that the families, the bereaved families were actors. That was where uh where politically it jumped the shark for me. And I thought, you know, I always said to me um my daughter, who's in her mid-20s now, you should go and live in the United States, it's just a brilliant place to live. I I uh I was 20 when I went to New York for the first time in 1980, and people said New York was the most violent place in the world, people were terrified of New York, and it was just wonderful, it was so warm, welcoming. You know, it's uh once you get past that crust of that that that New Yorker tasteness, you know, sort of you've I found it, and and I had no fear. I lived in Southern California, say for six years, the you know, around the San Fernando Valley, out into out into uh up towards Ontario, around that area, down in Orange County, and I've very rarely felt unsafe. I felt, you know, but now it feels it feels a country with rage at its heart, and Trump is the very manifestation of rage. He's had everything he ever wanted, and it's not enough. And that's one of the things that gets me about him and the people around him, they're all so angry. They've achieved everything they wanted. Most of them were born to huge wealth. You think they'd be a little bit happy, but they're not. They're furious, and they want to they want revenge on people who've done nothing to them.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

And they so but what what do you think is is feeding uh that anger? Where does that anger come from? Because I agree with you that these are people who uh, for the most part, uh are fairly privileged people. They come from very uh you know, wealthy or at least uh upper middle class uh backgrounds. Uh they've had good educations. Uh, one can argue whether the outcome of those educations uh uh had the uh uh requisite results, but uh they did nonetheless have you know pretty good backgrounds. What do you think they're angry about?

SPEAKER_01 28:48

It it's hard to see. I mean, certainly there is a strong element of the the they believe in America that and an America that really didn't exist. You know, they they'd like it to be white, they'd like it to be uh, you know, sort of uh, you know, I I often hear people certainly on that, you know, with those political views, talk about the six fifties and the sixties and you know and how different it was. You could walk the streets safely, and basically the undercurrent undercurrent of that is the blacks kept to their side of the tracks. But you know what? When you actually look into the the uh the crime figures and the golden age of these people, actually things are much better now. You know, the murder rates have dropped off a cliff since the mid-70s and the uh you know uh and and and I think the pine for a world where which which they imagined rather than never existed. And one thing that did strike me, Charles, when I lived in the United States, and particularly white women, was their real sort of visible and visceral fear of black men. And I and I think they they uh you know obviously better intellects than me, and um, and you know, there've been huge studies on you know the the the impact of slavery and how you know it still uh remains. And I think there's an element of that, and also you know, the the common fear we see in in in uh you know, you see everywhere people speaking Spanish, speak English, you're in America. We're getting to see some of that over here now, and you know, and it's like one of the things that the demographics of the United States have always shifted. We know it's it was a country of immigrants, Irish, Italians, Jews, and they come in and it's always shifted. And I suppose you've got a little bit of that, but there seems to be a certainly among white people, this terrible fear that you know the uh the Hispanic cultures are going to take over. And I think that drives a lot of the rage. Also, I think um too many of them have lived in gated communities away from real people for too long because of the wealth, and they don't they don't have a sense of what reality is.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

You know, it's funny, you you mentioned um when you were in New York. I mean, I mean I I grew up in New York City, and I used to find it really funny when I was, you know, by the time I was old enough to kind of wander around the streets of Manhattan on my on my own. Uh and I would always I would sometimes see these uh tour buses unloading passengers from whether it was other parts of the U.S. or maybe from from uh overseas. And I would often hear the tour guide instructing them, make sure you stay together because you know it's dangerous walking around in New York. And I would think it's ridiculous. I'm walking around all the time by myself. I don't feel particularly in danger of anything. And these people were being instructed, you know, make sure you don't, you know, you don't separate because who knows what's gonna happen to you if you do. And I just thought that was it was uh ludicrous, funny, but also somewhat sad because I think those people ended up walking away from their their particular you know trip with this uh notion that America was really unsafe when it really isn't and wasn't no no, you know, it's uh yeah, I I I spent a lot of time in the um in the after hours bars down on in Alphabet City.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Um you know, it's like and people say, no, you know, don't go to Alphabet City, and I'm like, it was absolutely fine. People lot lots of people who are expressing themselves in a different way to you know suburban Britain or America, but you know, no one was a problem, and and I think one of the the the great things I found about the United States is that people were certainly in my experience, and I say it's more than three decades ago, four decades in New York, people were happy for you to express yourself, be different. No one ever um no one ever uh sort of complained about my accents. They always love me accents. They sometimes ask me what language I was speaking, and um you know it's uh and it seriously, but like it's it's they they they were they were actually engaged and interested and wanted to, you know, sort of to be more aware of of it, you know, and and find out more about me. I suspect that that's that that that sort of part of the American psyche is not as strong because of the growing fear-mongering. And of course, as someone who's worked in the media for a long time, you do realise how easy it is to influence people and to plant ideas which are not only wrong but insidious and dangerous. And as we've moved into the internet age, we've had people who are more and more skilled at doing this, and the fear of the other, the outsider, is is massive you know, across the world. That this is not just in the United States, but we see its biggest expression and in you know the the biggest nation in terms of when I say biggest in terms of stature in in the Western world and the and the the nation that's had the most cultural influence in the past century and a half.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Let me uh get to because we because we didn't really uh go much into it, uh, but I want to. Uh the the current conflict war really between the United States and uh Iran. Um you know, when the Strait of Famous was closed by the Iranians, President Trump started to rail against uh the UK, against uh NATO countries. He wanted to know why they weren't helping to open uh the strait, even and any any pointed fingers saying, you know, we don't really need their help now. We needed it when this all began, even though he, of course, was responsible for causing the problems to begin with. Um do you think the UK and and the other NATO allies were now in retrospect correct in keeping somewhat of a distance from this particular uh war between the US, which the US and Israel together did, of course, uh against Iran. Were those countries, was your country correct in kind of being a little bit standoffish about it? Well, was the president correct that everybody should have chipped in together?

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Well, I think the first thing on that, Charles, is if you're gonna have a fight and you want your mates to help help you, give them a call before it and warn them. And the fact that the British and the European allies weren't told in advance, I think that was a uh a bit of a shock. But secondly, it it's I think the overwhelming public support in the UK was to stay out of it. Uh the I was talking to uh someone from the Ministry of Defence and they said they've wargamed that situation in in the Gulf many times, and basically you can't win. And it it's you know, the the victory would be pirr at at best. And and then when you see Trump, come on, I mean, because he said last year with the famous bunker buster bomb, you know, we we we've eradicated any Iranian hopes of building a nuclear weapon, and then all of a sudden it starts again. You know, uh they can they can build a new nuclear weapon, they're a threat to us all. And because we all we've all been here before with Iraq, and we saw the hell that was unleashed on not just the Middle East but the world. I mean, part of the the refugee crisis that the ongoing refugee crisis was caused by that. So, and it's knock-on-fects, so uh people were very, very cautious about it, but then Trump declares victory repeatedly. So, yeah, they've got no army, they've got no navy, you know, they can't attack us, they've been bombed back into the Stone Age, and then the next thing you see Iran are hitting back. People don't believe a word Trump is saying, and his base obviously do, because they they will forget the lie immediately and then move on to the next one. But yeah, I I think this was something had the president spoken to his allies across Europe before going in, they all would have said, be careful here.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

I was gonna say, I mean, I mean, now we have again at the time of this recording, we have this sort of alleged uh agreement, uh, although it's not clear what it is that the US and Iran have agreed to. It it seems from initial reports to be kind of an agreement to agree to at some point in the next 60 days, begin to talk about what they might do. Uh I mean, it seems to be a lot of ifs, ands, and buts as opposed to any concrete agreement. Um so it seems, at least from from my point of view, and and and I'm curious what your point of view is on this, uh, Tony. Uh it seems like not only are we no better off than we were before the war with Iran, but we're worse off. No matter what they agree to, unless they agree to let the U.S. come in, you know, in 30 days and remove all of the enriched uranium, and I doubt the Iranians are going to agree to that. Um, and unless they agree to go beyond what the accord was that was reached with the Obama White House, uh, which was, I think it was a 15-year uh stipulation that they wouldn't uh uh do anything uh in terms of nuclear enrichment. Unless it really far exceeds that, which I really doubt it's going to, from my point of view, it seems like we're worse off because the Iranians have now learned, if they didn't know it before, that they have more power than they may have thought they had. They don't need missiles, they don't even need, they don't need drones, they don't need anything except to close the strait or to threaten to close the strait, and that makes insurance companies say, wait a minute, we're not going to insure this, and then the ships just won't go through. That's an enormous amount of power. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

And but I mean, the the reports certainly in the UK uh that the uh the President Trump has agreed to pay 300 billion to the Iranians, which is you know, I mean, and of course he'll declare victory, but it's it's it's uh it it's a mess. And the worst thing is you know what, I don't think there's anyone, any of us, who think that the regime in uh Iran was a good thing, uh uh you know, it was good government. Uh the the Iranian people were edging towards regime change. It might have uh taken you know another couple of years. But you know, I was speaking to uh an expat, so there was a momentum that was heading to the inevitable uh point, which is the overthrow of the mullahs, you know, and um and and then this war started and it unified the uh the whole country because they had an external attacker, and suddenly the the regime is more cemented than ever. So there's damage done on so many points. Um you look at I mean the what the Saudis and the Qataris uh Kuwait, I mean, they are they are very, very obviously unhappy with what the United States has done. Uh the only real winner of this, and in the short term, uh it won't be a long-term thing, is Netanyahu and Israel. Uh, but again, that you you just think uh he is leading Israel down a blind alley to um uh you know, and I I fear what what will happen in the Middle East and what will happen to Israel, you know, it's uh and this is uh completely unnecessary. None of this was necessary. The you know, the the the Iranians weren't a threat, a legitimate threat at this point, and probably with a relaxation of sanctions and a bit a bit of diplomacy, the West could have achieved its aims without this uh the this uh object mess in the Gulf.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

You know, it it uh one thought that occurred to me is is that uh I was thinking back, I remember seeing uh a recent documentary, I can't remember which one it was now, but it it was uh showing a clip of uh uh when then President Dwight Eisenhower was leaving office and he warned about the military-industrial complex. Um uh and you know, it makes me think that the the real beneficiaries of what just happened in Iran are the military contractors. Because uh Europe, for example, the UK now, what do they want to do? They want to buy more weapons so that they can be more self-protective and not have to rely on the U.S. But where does that money go? To a large degree, it goes to American uh military contractors because they make the lot of the planes and the the ammunition, you know, all that stuff. And uh so I kind of wonder if if this isn't isn't sort of real-world proof that uh Eisenhower all those years ago back in the early 60s was was right.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Well, yeah, and I mean he he he's a man who knew about war. You know, it's uh no one knew better than him. So yeah, it's it and it is a concern. And again, uh again, the the very richest people in the world are involved. in the arms trade and the manufacture of munitions. So again, we see and what I mean what you see over here it's um is the first place that politicians say when they say we need to uh get more funding for the military. They say cut welfare they don't say let's have a look at the taxation system and you know and see if there is a more equitable way of of doing this you know and and perhaps um you know have a look at some of the loopholes that the billionaires with their accountants can can uh use to pay less tax it's like let's cut welfare and obviously that leads to more social instability it leads to more people uh who lack uh education who lack basic support who lack who live in a state of fear and that's perfect for right wing politicians like Trump you prey on the fears you know it's um you know the immigrants they're coming to take more away from you and so we we we enter this cycle of fear all the time and and that's I think that in in a lot of uh in a lot of ways has been part of the reason for the Trump phenomena living you know in this cycle of fear and it it seems to me uh Charles that it it's it when I lived in the United States there there didn't seem to be as many people who were struggling uh to uh pay for health insurance it didn't seem to be the numbers who were going bankrupt because they got ill it didn't seem to me that you know and again this this is part of the trend people who we keep hearing about uh in the states you you you know your three paychecks away from being homeless and that causes the source of fear that the worst most venal type of politicians feed them well you know uh uh one of the things that that I I I was thinking of um you know especially because of what's been happening in uh with Iran but also with Ukraine and Russia that you know a a lot of the money that US tax dollars go to because unlike here unlike rather uh where you are in the UK you know our tax dollars for the most part they don't go toward medical care for example except for Medicare which is for 65 uh and and older um but a lot of our tax dollars go to you know the military the military gets trillions of dollars uh every year not billions but trillions of dollars every single year uh to produce what they produce and yet uh when you look at what's been happening in Ukraine and Russia and now with Iran so much of the cost of the of the fighting is being done by relatively inexpensive drones that are that cost you know maybe a couple of thousand if that per drone as opposed to you know the billions that go into developing a sophisticated jet you know fighter plane so one wonders why there isn't a dramatic shift now and the realization that if you're going to have a war you need to protect yourself or be offensive in some cases um why can't you do it so much cheaper and then divert that money that was going to build these very expensive war machines into more social good and and that's just a thought I had I don't yeah yeah well I actually well I I won't uh I thought it spoken too long so it didn't want to say that and uh answering your last question but I was in a discussion with uh someone from uh GCHQ which is the you know the um the intelligence agency in in the UK and they were saying to me this was this was some months ago they were saying to me what Ukraine has proved is that a conventional war doesn't exist anymore so you know it it's not really worth building tanks it's not worth you know you can do it cheap he said the two places that we should be investing in is uh drones obviously but also cyber protection uh against um against particularly Russian intrusions into our computer systems and the the way they can destabilize society he said the whole nature of it's changed and the politicians don't seem to have caught up with that yet they want to do the same thing build missiles fire missiles which he said is not the future of warfare and yeah if that would be absolutely I mean it it mark a sea change in the way that uh economies are run if you could divert the money that we're currently putting into weaponry and missiles into social care and the change I've gotta say I look at some politicians I think they don't want to change the nature of this social contract uh because they do they uh enjoy breathing fear and that will keep them in power.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Well that's right and and and I do think it's because these you know economic interests you know if I'm you know I don't want to single any particular contractor out but you know what why not?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

If I'm uh uh Northrop or if I'm Boeing um or any one of the large companies that manufacture you know very expensive war uh uh equipment um I don't want it to end i i I want that money to come pouring in uh and I have the lobbying power in Washington to make sure that that keeps happening even though the evidence is now showing you can wage a very effective either offensive war or defensive uh war using a drone which is again I mean it it's you know uh it's relatively inexpensive to produce and it doesn't require a lot of training you know to train a a jet fighter pilot is a very expensive time consuming uh operation to train somebody to sit in a room and operate a drone especially if you can add artificial intelligence to it uh is not very time consuming or expensive yeah yeah and and the the the Russians are finding that out in a big way in the um in Ukraine um and and so i I think I think we should all all governments should be looking at that as a template for going forwards rather than um than being at the beck and call of these huge companies you know sort of Loch Ibo and and and basically yeah and I it's uh it's amazing the amount of government grants these companies get as well and it it's you know the they're taking up both ends and um and no one seems to want to consider a different way. So uh I'm gonna ask you uh as we end this episode to be somewhat clairvoyant um your prognosis uh optimistic pessimistic for say I don't want to go too far into the future it's hard enough to predict nowadays what's going to happen in 24 hours but let's take a five year uh outlook what's your take on the next five years well the next five years I'm hoping it will be uh we'll see the ends of Trump as a uh a political figure um and we will see a rebuilding of the relationships with the United States and its allies and I would hope that we will see a uh uh a more sensible economic policy from the governments across the Atlantic that you know that begins to address some of the real concerns that people should have you know in the because you know at this stage you do think the uh the the world we live in with the gig economy the fact that uh people don't have any certainty in their lives the potential for that to cause instability social and political is is terrifying uh in my worst case scenario is Trump reignites the war in Iran sometime in October says he could kernel the midterms because of um because uh the United States is at war and it creates a huge political uh crisis and that that would be very very bad I think if if things continue this way despite Trump's core I think he's gonna take a very big beating at the midterms and I for one will be cheering on whoever gives him a beating Tony Evans uh it's a pleasure uh uh uh talking with you and having you as a guest thank you very much um and for those of you who have been following us uh uh for these uh episodes on SOS America uh as always uh we welcome your comments if you would like to subscribe uh it is absolutely free so by all means do so until the next episode of SOS America I'm Charles Feldman thank you very much