07 | Forgotten by God: Grief, Doubt, and Hope w/ Ben & Jessi Bock

What do you do when obedience to God leads you into a season of deep loss, unanswered prayers, and silence from heaven?

In this raw and vulnerable conversation, missionaries Ben & Jessi Bock share their journey through grief, spiritual burnout, and the haunting feeling that God had abandoned them. From the loss of both their mothers to raising young children in a spiritually dark environment overseas, their story is one of honesty, wrestling with doubt, and ultimately finding healing and hope.

If you’ve ever felt forgotten by God or wondered where He is in your hardest moments, this episode will remind you that you’re not alone—and that God is still present, even when He feels far away.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

• The unexpected hardships they faced on the mission field
• What it felt like to walk through a “spiritual desert”
• How grief and loss impacted their faith
• The role of community, counseling, and time in their healing
• Seeing God’s love in the hands and feet of others

Ready to clarify your ministry’s message and engage donors? Schedule a free call: https://irisstorytelling.com/getstarted

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Connect w/ me:
lisa@irisstorytelling.com
https://irisstorytelling.com

Transcript

God, you already made it clear that you forgot about us.

(...)

I'm already there. I already know that you asked us to be obedient and you peace out and you left. I already know.

(...)

And then my mom doesn't wake up and my brother's completely alone and

I already was aware that he wasn't present anymore. He didn't have to just reiterate that he didn't see us anymore.

before,

(...)

welcome again. Thanks for coming back.(...) Today I have something so special to share with you.(...) I interviewed good friends of mine, Ben and Jesse Bach. Wonderful, wonderful people. They love deeply. They have a beautiful family and we just get into the deep end. I mean,

(...)

we, they just opened their heart and share about not just one hardship, but several hardships that they faced in such a very small amount of time.(...) And they're just real, real about the effect that it had on them. The effect that it had on their relationship with God.

(...)

As they asked, doubts they had, fears they had, just everything. And it's just real. It's raw and real. And I love just how open they are about the hard stuff.(...) And I hope that it,

(...)

even though it is the hard stuff, I hope that it encourages you if you're in a hard place right now.

(...)

If you're in the middle of something really, really difficult, a big challenge where you're wondering, God, are you there? Have you left me?

(...)

I hope this story will encourage you. It'll help you feel seen. You are not alone.

(...)

And God is there.

So lean in. You don't want to miss any part of this story. It is so beautiful. Get your tissues ready if you're a crier.

(...)

And let's lean in to hear Ben and Jesse's story.

you.

(...)

Yeah, this summer we just reached 10 years and it's a long time. It's wild to think that we're at the age that we could have done something for 10 years.

(...)

Yeah, some memories we don't want to share publicly, huh?

(...)

Remember the Tele Novella we filmed?

(...)

It was.

(...)

I gotta hear about this.

(...)

We met at Central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri.

(...)

And,(...) um,

(...)

Jan and I remember meeting Ben his first day on campus.

(...)

And I remember one of my first thoughts was, I hope I never get into a theological debate with that guy. Because he would crush me.

(...)

He's so knowledgeable. And you could just tell that he really knew the Lord so well. But we quickly became friends and all of our friends were friends. So, yeah, so it kind of started there.

Yeah, immediate friendship and then same friend group. And we just became really good close friends over a few years.

(...)

Until finally, I think close to three years of being close friends. I finally got the courage to ask her out.

(...)

And I think within seven months from that day we were married. So it was quick. I think we went instead of getting to know each other through dating, we got to know each other from being friends and hanging out in the same groups. And so by the time I finally asked her out, I was like, no, this is the right person.

(...)

Yeah, never look back.(...) Yeah.(...) And so from there we graduated and we got married after graduation.

(...)

And we went out to Delaware to to work with close pastor friend of ours.

(...)

And we were on staff at the church with him and we were there for a few years until there was a lot of transition with the church leadership and Jesse.

(...)

You had had the desire in your heart, the calling commission since you were 13.

Yeah. Yeah, I felt that for a really long time. And so we just felt like with all the transition that was happening,

(...)

I had always wanted to go to Spain. That was just it was in my heart. And so it was neat because that's where Ben served, you know, grew up with where you grew up, you know, and so it's just it. It was neat how it worked. And it was something that, you know, Ben had always wanted to go back to Spain anyways. And so during this time of transition, we thought, OK, we feel like now is the time we've been married a couple of years.

(...)

We had a new baby. Now is the time to start that missions process.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

So we did I think 10 years ago this fall. Yeah. We went in and during our interview process with the sending an organization that we went with,

(...)

you know, even though we had applied to go to Spain,(...) they were really, really wanting couples and families and individuals to serve in Eastern Europe because there were much, much, much fewer people signing up to go to Eastern Europe.

(...)

And so during that whole week long process, they had asked us if we would consider going to what's called what's known as the Vulcans.

(...)

And we ended up in a country called Montenegro, which at the time and still stands as being the most unreached country in all of Europe with very, very, very few believers.

Yeah,

it was just crazy because most people don't think of Europe as unreached. I didn't even think even though knowing that I had always wanted to go to Spain, I don't even think in my mind I really thought through Europe as unreached. But then to go to the place where there.

(...)

I mean, there was, I think, 100 believers in the entire country at the time. And it's I think it still stands for that today. But yeah, so that's where we went. Just our small family of three and.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

Well, before we were able to visit a few times before we moved there.

(...)

And I'll say I think this is true with any place visiting the place and living in the place or two completely different. And the first time we were there with some we met some other missionaries, they all came to be able to have meetings at the same time.

(...)

It was just wild because I think we had signed up to go to a country that we knew very little about, except what we had been able to read on the internet, which was very little information.

(...)

It felt like. A country a little lost in time.

(...) Yeah, probably like 30 years behind Western Europe.(...) You like you still went in and paid your bill. You know, if you had to go into the building to pay your phone bill and then into the other building to pay your internet bill.

(...)

The city we ended up living in had been destroyed in World War Two by bombings.

(...)

And so then the Soviets had rebuilt the city. So instead of there being like an old city, it was just, you know, Soviet blocks, just concrete,(...) small windows, 15 stories high.

(...)

And so I mean, growing up in Spain and Jesse in Southern Alabama is very, very different.

(...)

Yeah,

I remember when we first when we actually landed to we were moving and we were on our way to, you know, get out of the airplane and we're on our way to our Airbnb. We lived in the capital city.

(...)

And so you think capital city is bustling. There's people, there's buildings, you know, all these things.

(...)

We stopped to see if we were in the right area for Airbnb and I just looked over and there's a cow.

We're on this main road. We just pull off to the site and there's just a cow in the grass. There's no one around it. There's just a cow. And I was like, where are we? What is happening? Yeah, we

had a lot of those moments, a lot of moments of is this is this real life? It felt so much sometimes like a movie set because it was like, there's no way this is people live like this. There's no way this is real.

(...)

Yeah, so since our organization had never sent a missionary two months in the group before they didn't want to send in a young, young family on their own. And so they sent us to France where we were with a missions team that was church planting amongst like international students.

(...)

And I think even a little bit before we arrived in France, my mom was diagnosed with cancer.

(...)

And so we moved to Europe while she was going through cancer treatments.

(...)

Jesse was pregnant with our second child, our daughter Nora.

(...)

And kind of about the time that Nora was born was when my mom started like her health even more started to deteriorate.

(...)

And I think I had, you know, I've had extended family members go through sickness or die, but it had never been something that had been, I think, close to really either of us.

(...)

And

I mean, I guess maybe it's not obvious, but we were really, really close. My mom and I, I think I even look back to the moment where I recognized my need for a savior, my need for forgiveness and my need for Jesus was through conversations with my mom,

(...)

my cult of ministry, like,

(...)

I mean, all the moments where, you know, my mom knowing,(...) you know, holding the phone, waiting for me to call, tell her that I had proposed to Jesse and what she had said.

(...)

I think my mom was also like this amazing person that, you know, I could have all these wild ideas and, and should be someone who just listened and would ask questions and let me verbally process to be able to, you know,

(...)

to really get out these strong feelings that I had inside of myself.

(...)

And so, yeah, that whole, I think it was 18 months that she was battling cancer.

(...)

And it culminated with we did a trip to Spain.(...) And during that, that week we were there, like, she really took a bad turn. And so we ended up staying for a few weeks.

(...)

And we were able to be in the room with her when she, when she died and breathed her last, which was really, really special, you know, when our whole family's living around the world,

(...)

like the opportunity to actually be with a parent who lives in a different country, the moment they die is, you know, it's one of the, one of the costs of missions and living in other places, you usually miss out on those opportunities.

(...)

But I think that was, I mean, definitely emotionally and spiritually a big hit.

(...)

And that was maybe six weeks before we moved from France to Montenegro.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

And I know for me,

(...)

I mean, Ben's mother was just everything and more that he said about her.

(...)

And she was someone who trusted in God so much. And she was okay either way. If he healed her, you know, she got better or if not. But, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, but there's no one like, no one like to heal her because people around the world have faith and he's going to heal her. And he didn't, she didn't get better. And so that, I think,

(...)

looking back, I see that my, my faith,

(...)

you know, hadn't, hadn't gone through what it needed to, to fully be formed and to understand God and his ways and the world and what happens and sickness and death and all of those things. And of course you want your loved one to live, but I took it so personal that it was,

(...)

you know, and right before we moved and it's, you know, we have two small kids and she's never going to see them grow up and how could you do this and just really, I think, yeah, I mean, I took it personal, which of course really brought on some, some destruction in my faith as time went on.

(...)

Yeah,

(...)

I think one of the big things that'll, I think, be repeated over the next, the following how many years now, seven or eight years, one of the things she said was her faith or her faith or her trust or hope wasn't in being healed.

(...)

But her hope was in Jesus. So obviously like whether she's healed or not, whether it's a painful experience or not, whether she dies or lives is irrelevant because her faith and her trust was in Jesus.

(...)

And I think that's something that maybe I didn't fully understand in the moment.

(...)

But as we, you know, keep going through our life, I think I have, I had different moments where I, I think realize that even deeper than in the moment.

(...)

But I know we, we carried that deep grief as we moved to a new country,

(...)

which is now our third country as a family with a newborn. Our daughter Nora was six months old.

(...)

We arrived at the airport, not knowing anyone.

(...)

And, and we knew that like the Balkans and Montenegro were very spiritually dark places.

(...)

And so we have gone in with, I mean, tons of prayer and fasting, an incredible group of team of supporting people who were praying and fasting for us.

(...)

And we knew in theory, we knew about spiritual darkness and, and, you know, the enemy.

(...)

But I think very quick after arriving in Montenegro, we realized, oh, this is no, I don't know, like, Yeah, I

mean, pretty,

so we, we arrived in June and pretty soon after that, probably, I think by August or September, our son, who was two at the time developed just this, I mean, now we can call it asthma, but at the time, just this chronic cough that it would come and it would last for two or three weeks at a time. And when it came,(...) he would whisper because he didn't want to force himself to cough. He didn't want to eat. He didn't want to drink because he was scared. He would choke. He couldn't sleep. And so he would sleep in our room on the floor and he would lay awake all night, just coughing uncontrollable. And, you know, we didn't know anything about the healthcare system, really upon moving there. But coming from the American system and then stepping 30 years back in time to, you know, post Soviet nation, healthcare is quite different. And so I think, you know, and we really, we really learned, you know, it's like, okay, well, if the enemy wants,(...) if he wants you out, he's going to attack the kids

because that's, that's the part where it's like, no, I'm done. I'm out, you know, a few months in and we've got no medical provider that will actually fully care for our kid, except just giving him, you know, a berry cough syrup and we, you know, nothing. And so that happened just a few months in. And so,

(...)

and it just, and it just continued the different health scares and,(...) you know, it's like you couldn't even, we didn't even know how many friends, someone to call and come over and have them, you know, they have coffee with us, even walk through Oliver's sickness with us and grief. You know, we grieved

together, but alone because it was just our family of four.(...) And

I don't think,(...) I'm not sure grief is meant to do them all that journey.

(...)

I think it's probably meant to do in community because then we, we can come around each other, you know, but if both of us are weak, there's no one else we can call on, you know, and, and, of course, we had people around the world, we would talk to here or there, but to actually just say, yeah, come sit with me. Come hold my hand and pray for me. Come, you know, make dinner for my family. You know, we just need someone to live on it. And it was, yeah, that began just this really,

(...)

I think early on we were like,

(...)

Yeah, I mean, like Ben said, we heard about spiritual darkness and we didn't have a Mr. Fair, but there was no, I don't know if there's any way that you can prepare for it except for going through it and learning from it.

(...)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

(...)

I,

we ended up calling it the cloud.

(...)

You know, you could, you could feel it, it would be, and it's all just in the, in the spiritual, this part is only in the spiritual world, but the, the darkness would come in as if it were just this giant heavy black rain cloud that would just sit and it felt like it's sat over everywhere that we walked in our, we're in our home in the cloud is there, you know, there was no way we felt that we could escape it. I remember one time I was outside hanging up laundry and,

(...)

and I'm in my own world in my own thoughts, hanging it up and just all of a sudden I just went,

(...)

darkness is here. It just, I, and I don't, it just this, this feeling of this overpowering sense of, you know,

(...)

my family didn't belong and yet we were there. We continue to stay.

And I mean, it was so thick. It was as if, you know, people had shown up around our house

to forcibly take us out. That's how thick it felt. And I had, I had nightmares over fighting this darkness and nightmares of it coming into our home.

and I think it quickly led to like Jesse and I each have both a very consistent walk with the Lord with, you know, daily reading of scripture and meditation and prayer and worship and meeting and meeting in community and church. But I think really, really quick after arriving in Montenegro, like even with keeping our, our spiritual practices, the same and consistent.

(...)

Very quickly, we got to the place where we no longer sense the Spirit of God or felt like we heard the voice of God. And, you know, all of that subjective and personal experience.

(...)

But I think really soon after, and maybe it was with the added grief on top of it all.

Yeah, for sure.

(...) But all of the all of the ingredients led to what started by at least a three year season of I don't feel the presence of God. I don't hear the Spirit's voice.

(...)

We would sometimes leave the country and go spend a week with family in Spain or go visit other friends around Europe.

(...)

And whenever we'd leave, we'd be able to feel the Spirit and hear His voice.

(...)

And on the plane back, there'd be a wall that we'd go past or a cloud.

(...)

And even one of the things we do, we'd always pray on our way back in or if we were driving and we're coming back, we knew it was coming. And so we'd prepare and we'd pray.

(...)

But I think that definitely all of that and with how long it lasted, you know, it was just daily waking up saying this is what I know is the right thing to do.

(...)

And so this is what I'm going to do. This is what we set out to accomplish. And so I'm going to take the steps to accomplish that.

(...)

Without having the added benefit of what we experience in our, you know, what we've come to experience in our relationship with the Lord, you know, Spirit-filled believers and.

(...) But it was treacherous.

Yeah.

I mean, like,

(...)

with.

(...)

And I think being in our relationship with the Lord is based on our personalities as well, you know, and how you communicate or how we communicate back with Him is based on personality or how we view God or whatever.

(...)

You know, with all sorts of things, but I do think personality is a big, a big deal. And for me, I'm such a feeler that it felt and I, and I can naturally something I'm working on, but I can naturally. I mean, like I already said, I take things personally, you know, I took it personal that then his mom died and God did not intervene. And so then I began to take it personally again of like, you know, this isn't even what I wanted to be. I wanted to be in Spain and then felt like we needed to be obedient and we're being obedient and then Ben's mom dies and then we're being obedient. And then you don't exist in Montenegro. Somehow there's a way that there is a hole in your presence and your presence is everywhere except for this hole in this country. You've asked us to serve it and you've plopped us here and you've left us alone and we find you elsewhere, but not where we're being obedient to you. And so that is more practical with God's asked us to do this, you know, we're being obedient because leadership asked us to do this or, you know, ABC, whatever.

(...)

And so he's able to to be practical and say, well, let's do it and let's do a good job. And and it was really hard for me because I'm not practical that way. I do go off of feeling. I'm learning more to be practical because my feelings are, you know, I shouldn't base things on my feelings. And that was a big lesson for me to learn. It's just because I feel like God has left is that reality. No, it feels like reality. And it's a real feeling for sure. And then experienced it as well. Is that the truth of who God is? No. And so I had to fight. I had to fight through that. And then,(...) you know, so we were going through all of these things and we find out we're pregnant with our third with Lily and.

(...)

And I was thirty three weeks pregnant and we have decided that we were going to have Lily in Spain just again because of the health care. And I was already not in a great place mentally because of the just my rocky relationship with the Lord. And I mean, I continue to serve him and I continue to be obedient. But it was this, you know, I knew right that he had forgotten us and which I think is OK. I can handle that. You know, we can handle that. I that I felt that way. I couldn't handle it. But so I'm already rocky. I I don't do well with pregnancies mentally and emotionally. And then my brother calls calls us on a Sunday and says that he when he and my mom lived in the same town, he went to church that morning for service. My mom didn't show up. She was supposed to bring people to church. They didn't make it to church because my mom didn't pick them up.(...) So then she's supposed to be there and preparing for whatever she's doing for the second service. And people are asking my brother where she is. She's not there. So he leaves in between services. He was leading worship that day. And so he just leaves in between services and drives her house.

(...)

And when he gets there, it's all it's still all closed up as if it were the middle of the night. And he gets there and that's when he calls us and he says, he's like, just something's not right because mom's house looks like it's the middle of the night. I can't get in. All the windows are closed. He's like, there's no there's no evidence that someone has made it into the house.

(...)

But there's also no evidence like she has not come out. She is in the house. And just this feeling of, you know, I'm however many hundreds of thousands of miles away and I feel,

(...)

you know, I know my mom has died. I know it. There. Just this.

(...)

Just this. Yeah, I mean this feeling of coming undone inside me and trying to be there for my brother who is completely alone and says, I'm going to go because I think I need to call the police because I can't get in.

(...)

You know, and he's there and he's all alone in the police and the firemen. Everybody show up and they have to break into my mother's house and they find her and she fell asleep peacefully and just didn't wake up.

(...)

And,

(...)

you know, it was one of those moments where it was like,(...)

God, you already made it clear that you forgot about us.

(...)

I'm already there. I already know that you asked us to be obedient and you peace out and you left. I already know.

(...)

And then my mom doesn't wake up and my brother's completely alone and

and I'm 33 weeks pregnant and you know, I'm naming her after my mother and she doesn't even get to meet this baby. And, you know, it's like I'm having all of these things and it's like then it was like, no, God is cruel because

I already was aware that he wasn't present anymore. He didn't have to just reiterate that he didn't see us anymore.

(...) And in my mind, it was like, but he did reiterate that he wanted to make it extra clear and punch me in the gut another time.

(...)

And that was when I, I felt like, you know, I understand why people turn their backs on God.

(...)

I understand.

(...)

I'm looking back, you know, I am. I never did because I felt this real somewhere deep inside me even though my, you know, my, my garden of flowers, you know, inside my soul had been all my flowers have been ripped out and there was no health and there was no garden left. It was like somewhere deep down there was soil that was still there that had been unharmed and hadn't been touched and hadn't been messed with, you know, so it's like I felt this some sort of foundation still inside me. But there was zero. It felt like there was zero evidence that God was like real anymore to me, even, and I still held on because that's what my mom had taught me to do. You might want to talk me to hold on to God.(...) And, and looking back, of course I am so grateful for the Lord's grace over me during that time because again, he could handle it. And he knew, he knew what I was going to say. He knew how I was going to feel towards him.(...) And there would be times I would just yell at him and I would say just the meanest things, and I know.

(...)

And it probably because, you know, comes from being a parent, going nowhere near. You don't have the beautiful character of God.(...) But, you know, you just keep loving your child, and he's just gracious and like, have your feelings, have your feelings, but there is coming a day that I will bring wholeness, and you can't see it. You can't see it, you can't understand it and that's okay. But you're still holding my hand, and that's what I want.

(...)

Hey, I just want to pause the interview real quick. Hearing Ben and Jesse share so openly is such a good example that when your ministry can tell its story with this kind of honesty and clarity, people don't just hear it, they feel it.

I help ministry leaders do in my one-on-one coaching. We'll work together to clarify your message so your donors connect deeply and know exactly how they can be part of the mission.(...) Learn more at irisstorytelling.com slash get started.

(...)

You

(...) the, I don't think our life was anywhere near like the life of Job in the Bible.

(...)

You know, the life of Job, you know, the devil goes to God and he's like, hey, Job only believes in you. He only loves you because his life's so blessed.

(...)

And God's like, nah, that's not, that's not it at all, right? So then the devil ends up, you know, taking away, you know, his family, his livelihood, everything, right? He's left with just his life.

(...)

And I think Job at one point says, you know, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord.

(...)

But really God wasn't, he wasn't the one taking anything away from Job,(...) right? Job can't see that because he was just in his grief, but we get the whole story, and we get the beginning of the story and we see actually God's, God's not taking anything away.(...) It's the enemy doing all of that.

(...)

And, you know, obviously being out of it, looking back,

(...)

I think that's what I, I don't see this cruel God who, you know, said on, I don't know, bringing pain or punishing or bringing destruction.

(...)

Could God have kept us from the pain and suffering?(...) I assume so.

(...)

He didn't, but I also don't believe he was the one causing it.

(...)

One of the,

(...)

I mean, for real, the first step, we, we, we were scheduled to go back to the United States to do,

(...)

to raise funds to go back to the, to the field.

(...)

This is mid COVID. I think we even extended our time in Montenegro because of COVID.

(...)

So we ended up like nine months later than we were supposed to, we went to the States and very, very, very quickly realized we were like so burnt out.(...) And thankfully our, our leadership could see that we were burnt out.

(...)

And so we got connected with a Christian counselor who had also served overseas, probably two decades in very, very difficult contexts.

(...)

And, and we started meeting with her regularly. We started solely attending church without the need to minister. As missionaries, we were always the ones preaching or doing some sort of presentation,

(...)

being able to just go and,

(...)

you know, I'm not a big believer of just people going to church and receiving and never giving. But I think we were in a season where that was necessary.

(...)

And so we just spend months without doing ministry, doing counseling, going to church every time the door was open. No one knew us at the church.

(...)

And so no one was asking us questions about missions. And that was what we needed at the time. I think we just needed a clean break from being able to recount it.

(...)

And really our, our counseling gave us the tools we needed to, I think rewrite the lies that we had started to believe.

(...)

And being able to be poured into at church without the need to minister really started to, you know, to quench our, our dry, I don't know.

Yeah, fill our buckets.

Fill our buckets. You know, we were so thirsty for the spirit and the presence of God.

(...)

And finally we were in a place where we could experience that. So I think that was the first big step that we took that we started to see some change.

(...)

So I think,(...) you know, again, a lot of it came from to just being pregnant and then having my baby as well. And just mentally what pregnancy would do to me, it would send me into low lows and being already in a low place, you know, it's just not really a great mixture.

(...)

But yeah, I think honestly, just the removal was a big part, just stepping out and having finished our term.

(...)

And so we didn't really,

(...)

you know, we completed that term. We didn't leave early. And who knows, maybe we should have, I don't know, but being able to have completed it and then just be picked up and put back in the States was, even though we were in a place we had never lived before was just so.

Didn't know anyone.

You didn't know anyone, but like the cloud wasn't there, you know, and I can remember, I can remember going to church and the pastor, oh, like Ben said, he, he was just so great and was like, we don't want you to minister, we want you to come. And like, if for some reason you feel like you have something that you want to share someday, then that's great. You know, people would enjoy knowing that we have missionaries here, but also come and just take part. Send your kids off to classes where people care about them. And then you go and be cared for. And I, I mean, yeah, we took that. We took that. And it was, it was the most beautiful thing. And I can remember, I always wanted to sit close to the front, you know, like, I just couldn't get close enough to Jesus was how I felt. So it's like, no, I gotta sit up as far as I possibly can. And I can remember for most weeks during the time of service that was the worship and the singing, I can remember for many of the services, just being on my knees and just doing an ugly cry. I would either do this, this ugly crime, it was as if I'm purging all of my sadness, I'm purging all of my doubts, I'm purging, you know, just all these things that had just been stacked, stacked, stacked on top of me began to come out and I am, I am a crier. Maybe that goes along with being a feeler, I don't know. And so being able to cry and feel safe in the presence of God, just really released me have a lot of tension that I've had inside. And then sometimes they would just sit, and they wouldn't even sing the songs and I would sit with my eyes closed and to be in a place where there were people around me that were lifting up the name of Jesus.

(...)

And I could hear people around me praying.(...) And I would watch as people would go to the front and be praying for and I would watch as the people who were praying believed with all their might that God was good and not human answer those prayers, you know, it was like, they didn't realize it, but they were carrying me because it's like I'm having to, you know, they're, they're helping bandage up all of my wounds. And I'm watching you praying you believe for so long, I've prayed and I didn't believe anymore because,

(...)

you know, you know, the story, right? So it's like, I don't believe that God lives anymore. I,

(...)

because I've asked him, he doesn't. And so to watch these people pray and believe it was like, wow, they, they still believe that God lives, you know, I want to be like that too. And the people that went forward, came out of their seats, filled with faith, believing that God would move, you know, and so then Ben and I, we would go to the front to at times to be prayed for. It was just like, sometimes it would be like, just, I don't know, like, we just want more of Jesus, just pray, whatever you feel, just literally whatever you want to say, just fill the bucket. I will accept anything. And so the people at the church, again, they don't, they don't know what they did for us, but God placed us in such in a place that was like this big, beautiful garden that helped, you know, my garden start to have seeds again and start to start to plant things that began to come back to life. And like Ben said, the counseling was just so incredibly helpful. And she gave us practical tools. Because again, you know, I'm trying to just go off of my feeling, I need to go off of the practicality and learning that, you know, my situation is my situation. And God is, is all around and he extends much farther than the situation. He's beyond time and he's beyond space and he's beyond memory and he's beyond, you know, creation, and he's beyond all these things. And then here's my situation. And so I'm taking all of this and I'm shoving it into my situation and saying now, love him to be who I want you to be. I'm going to take all of who you are and I'm going to put you into this tiny little situation. Now I'm going to tell you, I want you to be like this and I want you to operate this way. And, you know, counseling and being at that church really helped me to be like, no, let's, let's take that out and let's let the situation be what it is. And let's let God, whose love extends all around it. Let's not shove him in and tell him how he needs to be now. Let's let him cover the situation, be all around it, be who he is. And this love that is really, we can't fully comprehend, you know, but let him be who he is and offer your situation and let him decide how he wants to come in and how he wants to love in that situation. And yeah, all of just our time in the States was really helpful for us. Our time as a family, we have a mentor who instructed us even in Montenegro to make time for fun. It's so easy to to get caught up in everything. But even then, you know, in my time, he was like once a week schedule fun in and how to on the calendar so that you don't you don't forget it because most days you don't want to have fun because you're so low. And so we even kept that up in the States to, you know, scheduling fun, whether it be an ice cream or it be a walk in, let's see who can pick the most flowers or, you know, spend money or don't whatever it is, but scheduling scheduling your fun. And and that was also really helpful for us to just that time was a breath of fresh

air.

So I think like practically, you know, one of the things that our counselor was walking us through.

(...)

And there's different terms for it, but it's pretty much we had we because of different circumstances, you end up believing lives. So you have to rewrite those lies with the truth.

(...)

And it makes me think of Joe, right? Like he feels like God's taking everything away. He gives, he takes away. It's like, I understand why Joe felt that way. Absolutely. Any of us in that situation would feel that way. But that's also not the truth. You know, God gives the devil was taken away.(...) And so I think looking back over those years, it's like, I understand why we felt as down as we did. And and I have no judgment about who we were in those moments.

(...)

And the prayers are the, you know, those prayers of anger and frustration to God. I don't regret any of those.

(...)

But once you're out of it, you can look back and say, all right, what were the lies that I was believing?

(...)

And what is the truth?

(...)

And, you know, I was talking to, you know, one of my Ukrainian pastor friends and the conversation about where's God in the midst of war.

(...)

And it's really hard to see God, especially like when you're on the ground and people are dying. And he said,

(...)

you know,

(...)

he's not feeling the presence of God like we weren't, but he says he sees God in other people when they're going out of their way to do good for one another, when they're going out of their way to encourage one another.

(...)

And I think that,

(...)

you know, I started to think through the last few years of our lives and it's like, it's not that God was silent, but he was speaking to me in a way that I wasn't looking.(...) And through conversations that we had with mentors or family members, that was the voice of God speaking to us in those moments. The moments that we had with other believers and we felt comforted, that was the presence of God for us in those moments. You know, in that moment, we just think we're having a nice time with friends or this person's really encouraging me.

(...)

But that was the voice in the hands of God.

(...)

It's not that God was silent and not present and far away,

(...)

but he was there.

(...)

And I think those things did keep us. They sustained us.

(...)

And now looking back, we get to rewrite that and be like, "Ah, this is how I felt and I know why I felt that way, but also this is the reality."

(...)

(Silence)

(...)

Yeah, so we were on, I think, a three or four month sabbatical where we were seeking healing and also just,(...) what's the Lord speaking?

(...)

As we were leaving Montenegro, a few other missionary units arrived to continue the work that we had started.

(...)

And they continue there today. Like they're still there doing the work. And at the very end of that, I think we were almost to the end of it and we contacted our leadership and they're like, "No, take one more week and get out of town." I think they just wanted to be like, "Do everything possible." So we did. We went to our district campgrounds because we got a few free nights there. And once again, just, "Lord, what do you have?"

(...)

And we had also taken away, just and I had gotten a few days away without kids. At that point, we had three kids.

(...)

I think after the time that just and I got away, we felt in our hearts, "You know, if the Lord still has Montenegro for us, then we're willing to go back."

(...)

Maybe not wanting to, but we're willing to go back.

(...)

And that's what we had originally told our leadership, but then they're like, "No, take one more week and we'll talk again."(...) So we went out to the campgrounds.

(...)

And I think during that trip, I was like, "I don't know." All of a sudden I felt released.

(...)

I think knowing that there were other qualified, willing people continuing the work, I felt released and just the Lord saying,

(...)

"See if your organization will let you go back to Spain where you requested five years ago at that time."

(...)

And so, you know, honestly, it was, we went through a different grief when we settled in our hearts that we wouldn't go back to Montenegro. It's not even that we wanted to.

(...)

But there was also that, I don't know, it had made that impact in our lives. We had a deep love and a deep desire to want to see transformation there.

(...)

And so then we had to grieve that.

(...)

And as we had those conversations with our leadership, you know, they blessed us and said,

(...)

"We release you and you can go to Spain."

(...)

Yeah, I don't know.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

Yeah. I think for me, the biggest is whether it was going through the grief of both of our moms or going through a season of spiritual desert was that was growing in empathy and understanding of other people who've experienced grief or death or cancer or a spiritual desert.

(...)

And so I think that's those are conversations that I regularly seek out with people that I meet.

(...)

I think partly because I know so many people aren't willing to have those conversations with you because it makes them uncomfortable.

(...)

And so I seek those out because I know those people aren't, they're not having the conversations they need to have because I wasn't able to have those conversations because people didn't want to talk to me about it.

(...)

And it's just opened up such amazing friendships and doors and conversations where I mean, minutes after meeting someone, you can be having this deep, deep, deep conversation about grief or death or where is God in the midst of my life right now.

(...)

And I think that's something that,(...) you know, we see even in Jesus,

(...)

you know, he left, he left his throne room in heaven to experience the,

(...)

I don't know, the emotions and humanness of humanity. You know, he didn't stay in his divine form.

(...)

And I think he could really, he related to the disciples and to the crowd more because of that. You know, he had parents and I'm assuming he argued with his siblings and he had joy and he had sadness and disappointment and anger.

(...)

And I think whenever we are able, when we experience those deep, deep emotions,

(...)

I think it connects us to other people who have as well. And I think that's a huge asset, not just for ministry, but just in life.

(...) Yeah. And then it, I mean, it not only brings us together,

(...)

that whole idea of community that for sure is biblical.

(...)

And so not only that, but then through that, I do think talking about grief and talking about sadness and talking about where is God in all of this actually does open up the pathway to become closer to God because of that. But then it normalizes being a believer and just having a sucky season, having a really difficult time, not having any faith because then people can come around you and have that faith for you, you know? And we shouldn't have to do it alone. And we do choose to do it alone. And I think it's just because it's not talked about. So then it's not normal and then you feel like, oh, I don't have enough faith because, you know, a situation isn't changing and I don't want to share it with anyone because surely that's it. I'm the problem.

(...)

And so it's so beautiful to share those things. And I also think for me, you know, just with Ben saying the whole seeing God in strangers, that is something I want to look for for my whole life because, you know, we're supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus. That is what he tells those who do believe

and trusted him to be the hands and feet. And so what does that mean actively in our physical being to, you know,(...) if being what is being the hands and feet of Jesus, it's giving ourselves, it's showing love, it's sharing laughter, it's putting our arm around someone who is grieving and knowing now's the time to say something and now's not the time to say something. And, you know,

(...)

that is being the hands and feet of Jesus. And I do think that, you know, God being who he is uses people to that don't know who he is to also be kind to us. And, you know, something right now I'm working through with our kids and so at night we'll sit down and say, okay, how did you see the love of God today? How did he show it to you? Because our son is very,

(...)

you know, God doesn't speak to me. I can't hear his voice. And what does it sound like? And, you know, just trying to learn that. He's only nine. We're trying to figure those things out. So it's like, okay, but actually, I think a lot of the ways that God does speak is through the people we surround ourselves with or someone that you pass by that helps you, you know, pick up the things you dropped or you know all these different things. And so we can see the love of God, even in nature, it doesn't even have to be in a person. It could just be in this stillness. You know, we live by the sea. Just to get refreshed on a hot day and be in the sea and God's love is everywhere, even if my situation is still happening.

I see the love of God? And so that's something I want to look for tangibly every day and not let it pass me by.

(...)

Yeah.

(...)

Thank you.

(...)

Thank you. We appreciate you a lot. Thank you.

Wow, that story is just so deep and personal and full of emotion.

(...)

And as I've been going through the episode and editing it, I have just gotten so deeply touched by especially Jessie's realness and the hurt that she was going through and just being open to share those doubts.(...) And we know when she shares about, "God, I know that you've left us. You've already proven that. You don't have to reiterate it. You don't have to punch me in the gut and show me that you haven't just left us, but you're cruel."

(...)

And being able to just verbalize that, say it out loud. And I think a lot of people that are in the middle of it think those things, but they're too afraid to share it because of what other people around them will think.

(...)

And I think it's so amazing to just be real because God is not afraid of our feelings. He is not going to punish us for feeling fear or being mad at him.

(...)

So it's hard to describe the impact that their story has had on me. And I hope that it inspires you and encourages you. It stays with you for whenever you go through a fire, a hardship like that. I mean, that's not just a hardship. That's like deep, deep hurt.

(...)

And yeah, I hope that it just stays with you as you think about it.

(...)

But the Lord will use it in your life however he wishes to speak to you through that.

So Jesse actually had reached out to me after the first time that we talked. So before we recorded the episode, we had a call and just kind of talked through the story a little bit first so I could figure out what the episode would look like. And she said even after that first call before we recorded...

(...)

we've grown more. Last week when sharing with you, I realized I was able to have grace for who I was during different parts of our story in a new way that I hadn't had before."

(...)

And that's like super incredible.

(...)

I talk about the power of story a lot, but I keep seeing new ways of how storytelling can actually be healing.

(...)

Ben and Jesse's story can be incredibly powerful for all who hear it. But even for them as they share the story, it's also healing for them. And I think that's so incredible.(...) I think that's so special.

(...)

Hey, I just want to pause the interview real quick. Hearing Ben and Jesse share so openly is such a good example that when your ministry can tell its story with this kind of honesty and clarity, people don't just hear it, they feel it.

I help ministry leaders do in my one-on-one coaching. We'll work together to clarify your message so your donors connect deeply and know exactly how they can be part of the mission.(...) Learn more at irisstorytelling.com slash get started.

(...)

Hey,(...) I want to pause the interview just real quick. Hearing from Ben and Jesse share so openly is such a good example that when your ministry can tell its story with this kind of honesty and clarity, people don't just hear it, they feel it. That's what I help ministry leaders do in my one-on-one coaching.

(...)

We'll work together to clarify your message so your donors connect deeply and know exactly how they can be part

(...)

of the mission.(...) Learn more at irisstorytelling.com slash get started.

(...)

Hey, I want to pause the interview real quick. Hearing Ben and Jesse share so openly is such a good example that when your ministry can tell its story with this kind of honesty and clarity, people don't just hear it, they feel it. That's what I help ministry leaders do in my one-on-one coaching. We'll work together to clarify your message so your donors connect deeply and know exactly how they can be part of the mission and know exactly how they can be part of the mission.(...) Learn more at irisstorytelling.com slash get started.

(...)