15 | Burned Out in Ministry? How to Find Joy, Rest, and Safe Support w/ Jourdan Lunsford

Are you quietly unhappy in ministry, feeling burned out, or wondering how long you can keep going? You’re not alone. In this conversation with Jourdan Lunsford, we talk about the hidden pain many women ministry leaders carry—and the steps toward healing, joy, and sustainable ministry.

Jourdan shares her journey of laying down identity tied to ministry roles, processing unresolved pain, and discovering the power of Sabbath, stillness, and safe vulnerability. If you’ve ever felt the weight of shame, busyness, or burnout, this episode will meet you right where you are.

In this episode you’ll learn:

• Why shame is such a sneaky lie in ministry
• How to recognize the warning signs of burnout
• How finding safe places for vulnerability brings healing and freedom

Connect with Jourdan on her podcast, Failing Loudly, and learn more on her website.

If this conversation resonates with you, share it with another woman in ministry who might need the reminder that she is not alone! 

Ready to clarify your ministry’s message and engage donors? Schedule a free call: https://irisstorytelling.com/getstarted

👉 Grab your free Ministry Newsletter Guide to easily write those updates that your donors want to read: https://irisstorytelling.com/guide

Connect w/ me:
lisa@irisstorytelling.com
https://irisstorytelling.com

Transcript

1:00:09

probably a lot of them who are in a season of burnout They are following the Lord, you know, his calling on their heart but it still feels empty or I they might even be unhappy, they're just struggling, burnt out. They're just at their wit's end, you know, we, we over spiritualize that and we're like, well, we're not called to be happy. We're just, we're called to have joy a lot of us in positions like this don't have joy.(Upbeat Music) in ministry and you are feeling burnt out, or you're quietly unhappy because it's too hard to admit that you're actually unhappy in ministry, or you're wondering how long you can keep doing this for the long haul. Today's episode is for you. I have a special guest, and I'm so excited to have her on this episode because she has such a heart for working with ministry leaders and people in ministry who feel this exact way. She does coaching and she just opens up and she talks about her story and about hidden pain in ministry. We talk about the Sabbath and stillness, finding a safe place to be vulnerable, and letting God reroute your identity as a daughter of Christ. It's beautiful, just super honest, super real, and like some actual tangible takeaways believe that God is going to move through this episode your heart. And real quick before we jump into this awesome conversation, I just want to remind you if you don't know already, I do offer one on one coaching. If you are just struggling with donor growth, you've tried all the things you're wearing too many hats and you're just frustrated that Your donors aren't growing, the engagement's not there and you're wondering what is going on, why isn't this working? And you wish that you didn't have to spend so much time worrying about donor growth and donor relations and more time spent on the ministry and the people that you minister to. If that's you, go to irisstorytelling.com slash workshop. There you'll find out all the details about one on one coaching that can clarify your ideal donor build a ministry brand story that you can use for all your communication and can simplify. message that will be effective and will engage your donors and drive them to action. Again, that's irisstorytelling.com slash workshop. Thank you Jordan so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Yes. And I really am really excited for you to be here. Just listening to your podcast and your heart and your heart from ministry specifically and people in ministry. And so for all the people listening that I just think they can get so much from you, so much wisdom and encouragement. So I'm really excited. Thank you. That means a lot. And yeah, the Lord's done a lot and me and I am so passionate about ministry and ministry leaders. So I'm excited to always be excited to talk about it. Yeah. Well, let's pray before we get into it. Yeah. Lord, I just, I'm so grateful for everything that you've done for what you've been doing through my heart and through Jordan's heart and how you just, you're just so good in the way that you work and just how you turn everything around for your glory and how you love to use us as imperfect as we are. And you love to use your people to speak to others. And I just pray that this episode would be such an encouragement to ministry leaders that may be feeling burnt out or just struggling. And I just pray that you would reach out and touch our mouths and put your words in our mouths, whatever, Holy Spirit, whatever you want to speak through and to whoever you want to speak to, do your work. We're just your vessels. We're just the facilitators. And I thank you for letting us be a part of that. Jesus name. Amen. Amen. I'm already crying. the main thing that's been on my heart and for this episode is I just, with the ministry leaders that are listening in, primarily women, women ministry leaders around the world. And I just feel like there might be probably not my, probably a lot of them who are in a season of burnout or they, they, they're trying, right? They are following the Lord, you know, his calling on their heart and they are doing everything that they feel like they need to, but it still feels empty or I want to say too, I think if they were strong enough to admit to themselves, they might even be unhappy, which is kind of a hard thing to admit when you're in ministry and they might not be able to admit it to themselves, much less the people around them. Like they're in ministry, right? They're following God, they're God's using them, this and that, but they are not happy and they don't know why, or they're just struggling, burnt out. They're just at their wit's end, which is why I'm so glad that you're on here to just speak into their lives and to their hearts. So I'm just going to like hand it over to you and if I have questions, I'll jump in. Yeah, so immediately I'm thinking about the word like unhappy. I think so many of us, you know, we, we over spiritualize that and we're like, well, we're not called to be happy. We're just, we're called to have joy and really a lot, a lot of us in positions like this don't have joy. And we just tell ourselves, well, you know, we're not supposed to be happy and like it's, it's all about joy. And so like we just have this beautiful, like self-sapificial nature that we totally disregard our own joy, happiness, whatever. And so yeah, I'm excited to share some things that God has taught me over many, many, many years and really just the only word coming to mind is exploded. Just kind of exploded in my heart the last two years through our own ministry experiences and watching my husband go through stuff. Before we get to that, I feel like we need to give some context, some credibility as like, oh, I should have introduced you more. Can you kind of tell us like, yeah, yeah. Short and sweet of it is I got saved when I was 15 And so immediately had that moment and knew I want to be in ministry forever. And so from 15, I was at the church. Anytime the doors were open, anytime there was an internship or a part-time job or anything like my name was in the hat, I was willing to do whatever. And so then, of course, wanted to go to a ministry school, wanted to go to a Christian college. And that's how I ended up here in Springfield in 2011. And just started on that journey of what does full-time ministry look like. So it's full-time in ministry, full-time student, met my husband Brandon, and we just kind of stayed around Springfield. We talked about this, just kind of a classic, and we tried to move away a few times, always in dumb bags. And so we've decided to not fight it anymore. And love, like, have such a passion for Springfield. And it was just kind of weird and random, but it's true. And yeah, so we were on staff at the church that we met at and did that for a long time, learned a lot there. And my husband was on staff shortly after that with Life Church, you know, the pastor, the character, all things. And so I was on staff at the church that we were at here in Springfield before that. And then I felt like Lord called me to be a stay-at-home mom. So I had been in ministry for 10 years at that point. And my entire identity was in that. And I didn't know that. And I didn't quite have the awareness. And I always felt like I'm a very self-aware person. But when the Lord asked you to give something up, you realize how much of your identity is in it. And it was soul ripping for me. And I love being a mom. I loved being a mom. I'd always just had this picture in my mind of, I can do both. You know, like you see other ministry families doing it. And I just thought like, I can be a full-time mom and full-time in ministry and full-time wife. And it felt like that, but like wife at the end, kind of subconsciously, you know. And so yeah, the Lord asked me to lay it down and I did it kicking and screaming. It took me like six months to even bring it up to my boss. It took my boss eight months after that to let me go. And so it was a process. And then for five years after that, I was a stay-at-home mom while my husband's in full-time ministry. And so obviously we're doing ministry together. But yeah, those five years were essential in my walk with the Lord. And he used it to tear down all of the unhealth that we just so casually and so naturally found ourselves in. Can you quickly kind of go through what that was? No real Sabbath. No rest time. Neglecting our marriage. There was a very distinct moment where we looked at each other and we were like, we had just had Mason, our daughter. We just looked at each other and both just kind of at the same time were like, we are roommates. And how did we get here? Are we the only ones that are experiencing this? And then you just feel the weight of like, am I not good enough? God's called me to. And then he tells you to lay it down. You're like, well, then I guess I really am not good enough. And being so disconnected from our families who did not live here, being so disconnected from our friends, because we were just so wrapped into this one thing and not having a place to confess our faults because everything felt so high stakes. Like if I confess my faults, I'm never going to get to actually do what God's called me to do. It's not just about a promotion or about being on leadership staff or whatever, but those things feel like, oh, when my leaders can recognize this in me, that means that God believes it too. You just are kind of unconsciously placing your leaders in the place of God. And we were definitely do that and it affected everything. So we lost intimacy with ourselves and with God and with our family around us, just in the busyness of ministry. We were so busy caring for our leaders and the people that we pastored, which is important. And it's essential, but we put it in the place of our relationship with the Lord, just unconsciously. You don't get into ministry expecting that you're going to do that, but you just kind of go on autopilot and end up in a place that you didn't think that you would. And we love the Lord. We were having quiet times the whole time, you know, you're doing all the things. You don't even realize it. You're doing it with the best heart and the best intentions. And you just kind of wake up one day like, Oh, no, where am I? How did I get here? Yeah. So yeah. And I think that that's all brought me to a place of just, yeah, being so passionate because I've learned I'm not the only one, you know, in sharing my story. Yeah. I learned that it's not just me. And I think the season of hiddenness that the Lord brought me into, you know, you go from being seen as, you know, someone who maybe not important, but you go from like being known as a ministry leader, you know, like, my face was on the screen. That is so dumb, but it felt really important at the time, you know, you go from being seen as this person to, okay, like the Lord's coming to be a state home mom, and now we're going to move to a place we haven't been to before where no one knows I've ever done any of these things. And now all of a sudden, I'm extremely hidden and I feel really isolated. And all these people see me as like the pastor's wife. Yeah. But they don't know that I was in the ministry too. And, you know, you just feel like, okay, well, now who am I? Now I'm, you know, stay at home mom and a pastor's wife, and I just never pictured myself as those things. And so the Lord had to use those five years to be like, actually, none of those things are your identity. Like, position or no position, stay at home mom or work full time mom. My identity is in none of those things. It's as a daughter first. Yeah. And I think one of the things that the Lord was peeling away was I didn't know how to be a daughter and how to fully rely on Him as my father and get that identity from Him. Yeah. Or how to be fully seen and known in Him. And yeah, that's one of the main things that He was unraveling. Yeah. One of the I for a long time, you know, and I think a lot of others can relate to this. It's like, yeah, you know, in your head that you're a daughter. And a lot of times I would think that like, yeah, I know in my head, I'm a daughter, but I don't feel it. Or I don't know what that means. Like, what do you do with that? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's so much of the stuff that I talk about now. Because as Christians or like professional Christians, you know, people in ministry, we know these things. We are theologically grounded. Yeah. We teach these things to other people. And yet, there is sometimes a head and a heart disconnect. That the way that you know that God is might not be the way that you're experiencing Him. And so you can know all day long that He's a dad and He's a good dad and He has all these things. But are you putting your heart in a position where you get to experience that from Him? Mm hmm. And it is wild how we can give these things away to other people. And like, God is so faithful and so kind to do that through us. Like He talks through donkeys in the Bible. Yeah. Like, I mean, again, we know these things. We just don't like to admit that maybe we're the donkey. And that He's gracious and kind to speak His truth through us, even if it hasn't fully connected to our hearts yet. And really, like, that's just sanctification. Right. Right. It's not something that is especially bad about us. It's just a process in our walk with the Lord that these are things He hasn't touched yet that He wants to. But yeah, I've seen the impact of what it is like to do ministry from the place where I was before and where I get to do it now, which is deeply by God's grace connected to who I actually am and how He actually sees me. Something I like to talk about a lot is the verse about remove the plank out of your own eye before you address the speck in your brothers. Yeah. The plank blinds us. Like you cannot see yourself, God or other people clearly when you have this big old plank in your eye and the work of sanctification and the work of being hidden with the Lord and knowing how to get your needs met by God is the chipping away of that plank. And so now getting to experience ministry on this side, it's insane how much faster the Lord can be like this. This is the root of what they're of what's really going on. Wow. And so, you know, you can be talking to someone and maybe, we know in ministry, there are people that talk to you like you are dumb and they are like, they're mad about something and you have to like trudge through them with something heavy. It has taken it from, oh, I'm talking to this person and they are, they are rude and they are this and they are that it takes it from that to no, I'm actually just talking to someone who's really hurting and the Lord can can pinpoint that need so much faster to me and give me empathy so much faster and I'm an empathetic person, but the Holy Spirit is much better at it than I am. And just so quickly give you out of an overflow of what he's already put inside of you exactly what they need. And so it's been really cool to see that and get to experience that on this. Yeah, that's amazing. So how did you go from where you were to now where you're coaching, you have a podcast like bridge that gap for me. Yeah.(Upbeat Music) was all very slow and over five years of time. And so in the beginning, it was a lot of just being hidden, feeling isolated, all of those things. And then in two, it was two years ago, my husband was on staff at electric location in Overland Park. We still attend black church. We love like church. So anything that I say is like, you know, we love, we love him. And so he was on staff there. And all of a sudden there was a change in leadership. And that served as a special kind of trigger for, for Brandon, because I had already had a couple of years to start processing hurt and baggage from other ministry experiences. And he went from, he didn't get that he didn't get the time. Yeah. And so because he was trying to provide for us, right? 20 ministries, all that we know, it's all that we love. Like there's no, there's no other jobs we want. And so hops into ministry, doing all the things and it's just kind of in that busy autopilot, not getting to process the things that have happened to us and all the things which were really just pile piles or piled up from other past experiences. So pile piled up on top of childhood trauma and things like that. So you just kind of, you keep, you keep doing, you keep doing what you can. You want to make a difference. You want to do all the things. And so, um, it all kind of culminated with that staff transition at Oberlin park, Kansas. And, uh, a new leader came in and there was, there was like trauma around it and it was just not a very like healthy situation, which is again, triggering all of the things because he's like, I love like church, but what if like church is like this church and like, what if this is all that there is and you know, it just triggers all of those things. And so a new leader came in who reminded him and they laugh about it now. Like Brandon and this leader laugh about this now. Um, but what reminded him so much of leaders that had hurt him. And it was, and it makes me emotional to think about it because, um, it was just so the enemy, um, because that's what happens when we don't process our pain. The enemy can just puppet us and not see clearly and just, um, put us through the ringer. Um, and so yeah, that earlier triggered him hard and he just wasn't devastated because we did not have the tools at the time to know how to overcome that and, um, to still like thrive in relationship. And, um, we love still those people that we got to pastor in that time. And God did some really cool and special things. And then when that happened, he just felt like, I can't fully get behind this leader. And he's like, he could acknowledge at the time that it was his problem. Not every, not every problem with leaders is like that. Um, but he was just like, I know that I don't, that I'm obviously not as healed as I thought I was. And he felt like maybe the answer was to just remove himself from the situation to not cause disunity or to not, I mean, and he wasn't saying a word to anyone that we were leading, but, um, and that was part of the problem, not having a safe place that he felt like he could process. Yeah. And it was just me. And I'm always like, you know, I'm, I want to do whatever's best for you. Like I want to champion you like whatever, you know, as a wife, you just, you're not thinking clearly all the time. And I wasn't. Um, and so that brought us to a place of like, we have to figure out how to heal. We have no idea what that looks like. That was your turning point. We cannot keep going further. Yes. And it was very clear. Yes. Yeah. Because we could have easily put a mask on and kept going. Um, but I think the Lord had made it clear at that point, like something has to happen. Like, and I think a lot of people too, they think like, Oh, ministry burnout only comes when, you know, you're looking at corn or having an affair or, you know, whatever. Like, none of that was happening. Yeah. It was just this, the pileup of unresolved pain that we do not know how to heal from. Yeah. And so many of us never take the warning signs from the Lord and just keep going. And I'm so thankful that by his grace, he allowed us enough vision to see that we couldn't keep going like that. Yeah. Um, and so we moved back to Springfield as one does. True healing. And which again was like hard because the Lord was like, you're trying to run from pain, but I'm going to put you in the place where some pain happened. Yeah. Where you can't ignore it anymore. And, um, man, yeah, it was rough. Um, but both of our moms had moved here, um, when we lived here before. And so, yeah, our moms were here. There's a life first location here. We knew we could come here and do some, do something. And so, um, I knew that I wanted to like, I feel like the Lord gave me a clearance to start working again. And I was like, I don't know what that looks like. I don't know whatever. I started, um, a life coaching program, like a Christ centered, spirit led coaching program. And I was like, I really just, I want to disciple people and I want it to be as like deep and healthy and a whole as it possibly can be. And so I did this program and, um, that was a huge turning point for us. Um, and finally gave us the tools to start processing that pain. And it's so funny cause I did it as like, I've been in ministry for 15 years. Like I can totally coach people and whatever. And the Lord was like, no, I'm going to show you how much you need these tools first. And, um, and then I would try to like, I would tell Brandon about it and I was like, try to like practice on it and be like, okay, cool. And it just wasn't there for him yet. Like it hadn't like clicked for him. And, um, it, it, just that program totally changed my life. Um, but you know, like you try to tell something to your spouse and it's kind of like your parents tell them. Yeah, that's absolutely what was happening. And he was like, okay, whatever. Like you got to get it from some stranger instead of your spouse. And so, um, over time the Lord brought in people like the, um, campus pastor here in Springfield and my youth pastors that I grew up with crying again, um, kind of randomly got like brought them into our lives. They live in Nashville. They have, um, a church plant there that is thriving and healthy and awesome. And they had no reason to take us under their wings. Um, but they did. And like brought us to Nashville a few times and did like zoom calls with us and just, they were a safe place to process stuff. Yeah. And we felt like we couldn't and, um, um, yeah, so that was, that was incredible. And over time, the Lord was using those things to, to crack at Brandon, to give him these things. And, um, man, just in the last year, watching Brandon transform and realize, um, man, I'm so mad at these pastors for doing these things to me, but I'm, but it's actually, like I said earlier, just a pile up of stuff that's been there forever that I didn't know how to address and, or have a place to process or know even how. And, um, which immediately makes it so much easier to forgive those people, you know, because you realize like, oh, if they, if they were giving this pain, how much pain are they holding that they don't know? And, um, yeah, just the transformation has been crazy. That's so cool. Um, a podcast episode that I did was a friend, Kimberly, she was talking about her, how her husband, um, after 10 years of marriage was like, again, it's own crazy story, but, um, they always show that he became Robert 2.0. And at this point in my marriage, I feel like I'm married to Brandon 2.0. Wow. And I've always believed in him, loved him, felt led by him, um, felt God's calling on his life, but God has shifted it in such a way. And it's, it is hot if I can say so. Um, and just powerful, it's been powerful for our kids. It's been powerful for our family, um, because now he knows how to powerfully get his needs met by God and is learning how to be a son. Um, and then learning how to be a son, the, the way he, yeah, ministers to people, meets people the way that he meets our kids, he's always been a good dad, but it's different now. Um, and as a husband, I can't talk about it all. Um, but I think, yeah, that's the kind of power that's waiting for us when we start to unpack our pain and like, yeah. So how did that lead you to coaching now? I think just, um, I think just sharing my story with people and realizing that there are other people in ministry more often than not. Actually, honestly, I have not had a conversation with someone who's been in ministry that can't relate to the things I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, my desire has always been to build the church and to help people fully embrace their God given space in the body of Christ. To fully embrace it, to fully own it. And I realized that we can't really do that without processing our pain. Yeah. Because God wants to, um, God, God sometimes can, and will miraculously heal us of things, but more often than that, than not, he wants to, um, meet us in it so that we can know Him. Yeah. Like know Him. And, um, I think coaching and the podcast have just come out of a desperation to see the church should be as emotionally and spiritually healthy as we can be because, you know, if you are alive, you can see the times we're living in are really weird and really heavy and ministry in and of itself, if you're doing it well, and like walking with people is really dark and heavy and weird. And so how are we supposed to operate as people who are expected to carry other people's burdens and shepherd other people well, and still have our own? Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of the neglect comes in because we just, we prioritize other people's needs to the detriment of our own. Right. Um, and even that can sound so selfish to people. Yeah. And, um, but if we don't acknowledge our needs and our feelings before God, we're not actually letting him meet them. Yeah. And if we can't get to that place, it's, um, much harder to care for the needs of others for a long time. Yeah. So if you want to do this for a long time and you want to do it well, if you want to have longevity, this is essential for the church. Essential. Um, and again, I, like I said earlier, just the powerful way that I see the difference in the way I can minister to people when God has already powerfully met my needs. Yeah. Um, and I'm like realizing it every day and new, new things are coming up, or old triggers still get punched. Um, the way that I'm able to see people and meet people is just so different. Yeah. So for the ministry leaders that might not even, they're not fully aware that they're carrying a lot of hurt. What are some signs, some red flags? Oh man, there's a lot. Um, I think if I was sitting with someone and I was trying to help them kind of see where they're at, I'd be like, what's your status look like? Most of the time it's not there. It's not there. Um, or, you know, they'll be like, oh, you know, this and that. And you know, we're just having this season right now where, you know, bouncing around it. Um, that's a huge one. That's a huge one. How connected do you feel to your husband? How connected do you feel to your kids? Um, when you are alone, what is your, what is your brain telling you about you? How do you talk to yourself? Um, it's a huge one. My brain was real mean to me. Um, but that's a huge one. I think just a question I love to ask is like, what are you feeling? What are you feeling right now? We can't answer like 10 out of 10 times. Like for whoever, whoever's listening, just pause for a second. What are you feeling? I don't know. Um, because we're so busy caring for the needs of other people and being receptive to other people's feelings that we have no idea what we're feeling. And if we don't know what we're feeling, we don't know what we need. And if we don't know what we need, we can't voice it to our spouse. And we certainly can't voice it to God when he's like, I want to show you how I abundantly hold that you need physically, spiritually, mentally, and emotionally. Um, so yeah, those are kind of the biggest things. Those are good. Yeah. What about, um, for those that do know that they are burned out and they might admit to themselves that they are feeling unhappy, but it feels almost comes with shame, right? And guilt. Uh, what would you share with them? Yeah. Um, Shane is just the biggest liar there ever was. Um, shame is so sneaky. And it can be like, what is wrong with me? What is wrong with me? Like I have all these things. I have all of these good things that God's given me. What is wrong with me that I'm still struggling with these things? What is wrong with me that I have an anchor that I can't appreciate these things. Um, that's been the voice in my head a lot. Um, I think that there are several, there are several things, but the biggest one is that you have to find at least one person outside of your family who is safe enough to be vulnerable with, confess your faults one to another and you will be saved or you will be healed. I think that's the biggest thing. So many of us in ministry don't have a safe place where we're vulnerable. So we pack all these things down. We make it about everybody else and we just keep trudging and we desperately need community. I remember when Brandon was going through all of this nearing his breaking point, he desperately wanted people to process with it felt so, he told himself it's so high stakes to go and talk to someone above me because what if they see this as like a character flower? What if I get demoted? What if I lose everything? So if you felt that way about something emotional, I can't imagine hearing the weight of something life-worn or unfair or just how devastating that is for your soul. Um, and we have to have places and he'd be like, well, you know, our life group was people that we pastored. Yeah. You can't tell them. You don't want them to wear the weight of what's happening in your church. And so we have to, we need to pray and find ways to get access to people who we can be vulnerable with. That's why I have a coaching cohort. I'm not trying to plug it. I just think it's so, um, important to have people who have agreed. Like this is something that we're going to go through together and we're going to be a safe place for each other. Yeah. Um, that is essential because I think pastors are good at, um, being vulnerable sometimes about things that have happened to them. You know, like, um, I'm going through this hard time because my mom's going through this or whatever, but not stuff that's happening in our own soul. Right. And there are two different things. There's transparency and there's vulnerability. We can be transparent all day long. Like this is a transparent conversation because I'm being honest. I don't know all the people who are going to be listening, but vulnerable is different. Vulnerable is when we are transparent and we are open to what God wants to do. So it's like, you know, when I, when my dog comes up to me and like wants me to give her a belly scratch, you know, like she's full out legs, right? Yeah. She's not going to do that to a predator. Yeah. She's not going to do that in an unsafe place. And so we have to have the spaces where we're willing to like really put ourselves at risk of being misunderstood. Um, that feels safe enough to do that. Yeah. So good. That's really hard to do, but pray and find that God wants to give you those places. We have to be willing to ask him for it. Um, so that's a huge one. Find one person. God, please just give me one person that I can do this with. Um, the next would be like implementing a Sabbath. Like just, it doesn't matter if you feel ready. It doesn't matter what position your ministry is in. It's a command. Yeah. It's a command. And I have not perfected this by any stretch of the imagination. Kids make it insane. And we have to show them what that rhythm looks like. Yeah. Even if it's unperfect, even if it's messy, even if you miss one week, don't miss two. Yeah. Like just helping them see that because if you are missing a Sabbath, that is a pretty good indicator that you're trying to run it on your own, that you are running in your own strength and you don't believe that God can do it. If you don't show up and do all the things on your to-do list for your ministry. So good. And that is, it's hard because again, we're, we're in a culture where that's normal. Yeah. Right. We hustle, we work, we do, makes me think of Corinthians when Paul's like, you follow Paul, you follow whoever, like we're just reacting to what's normal in our culture rather than sitting back and being like, okay, this is really hard for me because I believe that God's not going to bless it unless I work my fingers off. It reminds me, I told you earlier, that I listened to the, the leaders cut episode on the Sabbath and something that I really, really liked because I think my whole life, you know, I knew it was a command, right? But it almost felt like, like condemnation. Like if you don't do it, then you're sinning, you're a sinner, right? But when they're talking about it on this podcast, it came across as like, no, the Lord put that boundary in there for you. He wants you to rest. He wants you to be whole. He wants to do nothing with you. And it wasn't about this, like, if you don't obey it, you're, you know, a sinful person. It was like, no, the Lord loves you. And he did that for you. Not something for him, right? It's like, well, that like really helped me grasp it in a new, in a good way, in a positive way, right? Yeah. Something that I say all the time, that I constantly have to remind myself of is, God loves me. God loves you more than what you do. And Sabbath is the most beautiful picture of that. Yeah. He wants to be with you more than the things that you produce. I say it a lot, like, you know, if your kid brings you a picture that they made for you, it's like, it could be the most janky picture ever. You love it. Yeah. Because they made it and they're like, oh yeah, I made it for you. And that's so special to you. But if someone took that paper and took your kid and said, pick one, there's no freaking contest. And so that's how God sees us. Like the things that we make for him are so valuable and so beautiful, but they do not hold a candle to you. Yeah. And that's what God wants our experience of him to be. And Sabbath is an essential part of that. And along with that is stillness. Stillness has radically transformed our relationship with Jesus because, you know, we talk a lot to him. I used to think of like casting my cares on him, just being like, I don't want to be anxious. I don't want to be in these things. Like I give it to you and then not done with it. Yeah. That's what it looked like a lot. But stillness is a place where you have the time to have all of those intrusive thoughts come to the surface, you know, because a lot of us avoid being quiet because when we are quiet, all of the things we don't like about ourselves, all the places where we feel like we're less than just start to creep in. Yeah. And we, I think that's why we keep ourselves so busy too. We avoid Sabbath. We avoid just any kind of stillness because we're actually avoiding pain. Yeah. And scrolling, like for me, I know I'm scrolling, like that's a good indicator that I'm probably avoiding something I don't want to feel. And that helps me get curious about it. So stillness is the place where all of those things bubble to the surface and you're like, I didn't even know I was feeling that. I didn't even know that I was struggling with that. For an example, because I, you know, I don't think you ever graduate out of processing through these things. Yeah. And so for me this weekend, it was a busy weekend, kids birthday parties, I was telling you like, and, and I like dove into that busyness. I didn't realize it, but I was like, it felt good, it felt good to be busy. And in between the busyness, I'm like scrolling a little too much because all the things have happened in the world. And yeah, I'm just inhaling it. And I felt so anxious. I don't know, like Saturday night or something. And I allowed myself to be still enough for a moment. I just, the kids went to sleep. Brandon went to go do something else. I think he was like working out or something. And I just made myself be alone and just be like, God, what is it? What am I avoiding so hard? What hurts so bad that I'm just like throwing myself into everyone else's pain and yeah, instead of addressing my own. And it took a while, which is because I've been shoving it down so hard. And the longer I sat there, I was just like, where does it this? Is it this? Like, what is it? And just like allowed myself to be quiet and let there be an awkward silence in your prayer. And eventually I felt like he said, it's because you don't feel like a good enough mom in this season. And man, because sometimes it's something from way in the past. And sometimes it's just like, man, right now in this moment, I don't feel good enough. You know, I don't feel like I'm doing a good enough job for them and whatever. And then I was just like, okay, Lord, I hear that. That sucks. And I do feel that I do feel the weight of that. So like, how do you see me? I feel like I'm not a good mom in this season. But like, what do you see? And sometimes it's a word. Sometimes it's whatever. But more often than not, like it was on Saturday night, I just close my eyes and I just felt like I could see like a picture of him looking at me. And just having like the most kindness understanding, like loving eyes. And just seeing the way that he looks at me. Yeah. Is all the affirmation I need. Right? Like he's not looking at me like, I'm so disappointed. Why can't she get this? Why can't there's not a hint of that in the way that he looks at me or the way that he looks at you. And that was that was enough to be like, yeah, I don't have to run into all these other things, even unconsciously. When I get so full of how he sees me that I can actually be that person to everyone else around me. Yeah. So it's beautiful. Yeah, it takes a while to get there. And I, you know, I needed, I needed coaching and I needed time. And I didn't want to see that's why I feel honored to give that to people. Yeah. It's amazing. Is there any, any, anything else that's pressing on your heart to share with these women? I think just don't, don't believe the lie that you're alone or that you're the only one dealing with it. And I pray that God would give you people that are safe enough. Yeah. And that see you how God sees you. Mm hmm. Um, because he wants to do that for you. And I think, um, I feel like the season that God is bringing his church into is so beautiful and it's uncharted territory. And I just, um, I don't know, I just invite you to take a moment to ask God how he sees you. And, um, yeah, that in that, in his goodness and in his faithfulness, what he's going to use us for is insane and amazing. And so just find people who see you, how God sees you and don't let them go. Yeah, that's amazing. So how can people follow you connect with you? Yeah. Um, so I have a podcast called Feeling Loudly where we, um, share stories of our own failures so that Christ power can be perfected in us and through us. And so we can find you there anywhere where you get your podcasts, um, Instagram, Jordan Lunsford, or I post all the things. What about coaching if they want to do some coaching with you? Yeah. So, through Instagram is a great way to see all the handles and all the things, but yeah, one-on-one group coaching, all the things. Okay. I'll make sure to add all the links in the show. Okay. Yes. That's great. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jordan, for speaking into these lives, you know, all around the world and for being vulnerable and sharing your heart. Thank you for having me. I'm very thankful. Thank you so much. I'm so thankful for Jordan and her honesty and openness and the gold, so many gold nuggets that she shared today, things that you can actually take and start implementing today. if this resonated, go follow Jordan, listen to her podcast failing loudly and connect with her on Instagram. I'll link everything in the show notes for you. And if you're walking through burnout or shame right now, you truly are not alone. God loves you more than what you produce. And there's like no, nothing even touches it, the amount that he loves you more than what you produce and the work that you're doing. I'm praying for you this week.