E11: Sorghum- Africa’s Climate-Resilient Supercrop with Zandile Queen Finxa

Most of us have overlooked the humble grain that could be a climate hero sorghum, or mabele, as many Africans have known it for millennia. But what if this ancient, resilient crop is the key to food security in a warming world? In this episode, Zandile Queen Finxa, an award-winning food scientist and founder of the Sorghum Agenda, reveals the powerful science, culture, and sustainability potential of sorghum-Africa’s star crop for climate resilience.

Discover how sorghum outperforms maize in drought conditions, regenerates soil, and offers a nutrient-dense alternative that can feed communities today and into the future. Zandile shares their personal journey from childhood memories of motoho to leading a movement to elevate indigenous foods, challenging the misconception that sorghum is just "old people's food." You'll learn why the decline in local production isn’t about farmers refusing to grow it but about shifting demand, lack of policy support, and cultural perception.

We break down the complex ecosystem affecting sorghum, how government policies, retail choices, and consumer awareness all play a role in restoring its place on our plates. Zandile’s work proves the power of re-connecting with our heritage to build sustainable, resilient food systems that serve local communities without pricing them out. They passionately argue that indigenous crops like sorghum should be accessible staples, not exclusive luxuries, ensuring that their nutritional, cultural, and environmental benefits remain within reach.

This episode is perfect for climate-conscious eaters, policymakers, chefs, and anyone eager to reform the global food narrative from colonial legacies to indigenous strengths. If you’re ready to see our ancient grains as the future of African food sovereignty, this conversation will inspire you to act, by sharing knowledge, supporting local farmers, or trying a simple pot of motoho this week.

Zandile Queen Finxa is a food scientist, chef, and the founder of the Sorghum Agenda. They are a thought leader in sustainable indigenous food systems and has been recognized as one of Mail & Guardian’s Top 200 Young South Africans for their efforts to reshape how we value and serve African food.

Join us to explore how preserving and elevating sorghum can be a game-changer for climate adaptation, cultural pride, and equitable food systems. Your next meal could be a meaningful step in reclaiming Africa’s agricultural sovereignty, one pot of mabele at a time.

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Transcript

Kabelo (00:00)
when I was a kid, there was always a pot of motoho at my grandmother's house. So that's fermented sorghum porridge. It's a little bit sour. It's a little bit thick At least that's how I like it. And yeah, the smell just fills the whole kitchen. And that's when you know that the sun is properly coming up. And I'll be honest with you.

I didn't always love it. There was a stretch of my life where I just thought motoho was something we ate because we had to. Mabele was kind of the grain that you reached for when there was nothing more exciting in the house. It kind of felt like the past for me. It felt a little bit like poverty,

my grandmother really liked sorghum. She liked motoho She liked papa ya mabele. for me, I was just like, why are we eating this? Because there's maize. maize was modern. We had white bread. It was modern. And yeah, sorghum was just something that nkgono ate, you know, like what your grandmother would eat.

but here's what nobody told me back then. That grain in my grandmother's kitchen is one of the most climate resistant crops on the planet. It was feeding this continent thousands of years before maize ever arrived here.

And right now, as the rain gets less reliable and the heat gets worse, scientists are calling it a star crop for, I mean, surviving climate change. So how did we get here? How did a grain that is tougher than maize, more drought resistant than maize, and frankly,

Older than anything else in our food system, become the thing we were taught to be a little bit embarrassed about. That's what today's episode is about. The grain that we forgot. And yeah, now we're going to be talking to the person who's trying to put it back on the plate.

speaker-1 (01:46)
during apartheid when we, you know, struggled with food access as black people, the food that was sort of left in terms of availability was the hardy foods and the foods that survived terrible climate, which

and if you look at like people in the Vaal where we're working in steel alloy companies, and people that did very hard labor that required high energy, they would then be supplied with Mabele. there was this brand of porridge, phuzamandla can we remember it as a kid? Because our parents came up with the

speaker-0 (02:17)
Yeah, I remember.

speaker-1 (02:24)
Parents brought it ⁓ from work

Kabelo (02:26)
Welcome to the Candid Sustainability podcast, a podcast about real conversations at the intersection of people, planet and progress hosted by me, Kabelo Rathobei In each episode, I sit down with change makers, practitioners and everyday people doing extraordinary things in sustainability, from careers and climate finance to youth advocacy, renewable energy and beyond. We keep it candid.

and we bring an African perspective to the global sustainability conversation because Africa's voice belongs at the center of this dialogue and not at the margins. If this is your first time listening, welcome. And if you keep coming back, thank you. Make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcast and you do share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it.

Today on the show, we are speaking to Zandile Queen Finxa They are an award-winning consumer scientist, chef, product developer, recipe developer, and a food writer. They are part of the Mail-in-Guardian Top 200 Young 2025 for Tourism and Hospitality.

And they are a passionate researcher of sustainable indigenous food systems and the proud founder of the Sogum Agenda. Let's get into it.

speaker-0 (03:48)
Yeah. So like I was telling you, I was just going and researching about how sorghum is now being coined a climate resistant crop for a number of reasons and how this could be something that should be promoted,

But before we get a little bit more into that, think maybe introduce yourself a bit for the listeners. and then take me back to the beginning. let us into your first memory of sorghum and how did you get into this really?

speaker-1 (04:18)
Okay, so nna ka lebitso ke Zandile Queen Finxa I'm from the Vaal in Sebokeng And I went on to study consumer science in hospitality management. And within that I did culinary arts and food history as well as food science. And I sort of started learning about food from a lens that I didn't necessarily see

initially, growing up within food systems. But the first time I had mabele is very hard to pinpoint 'cause it's it always feels like it's it seems like it's always been there. if you grew up o ja ting and motoho wa mabele there's a sense of like familiarity with the grain without you necessarily pointing it out. It's like you don't you don't notice it's there.

But one of the more candid memories I have will always be, you know, being at a family gathering and we all sitting around as cousins after being in the line for the longest time. And I would always skip the samp, I'd skip the rice, I'd skip the pap right into the ting. so so I've always enjoyed ⁓

the the acidity of it, the flavor texture, you know, it's something that for me it brought a lot of comfort when I managed to get it.

speaker-0 (05:37)
Okay, that's quite interesting. It's quite the opposite for me, actually, because I'm like, I'm just like, why? For me, was like old people food, you know, to hear the other side of the story. Because, you know, when we're growing up, the idea is that, like, you know, maize meal, papa, is what it's the in thing. And for me,

Because I remember every time if my grandmother would bring bo mabele bo eng it would be from like in the homelands, you know, every time she came back from, you know, I extended family somewhere in the mountains, she'd bring it. And I'm like, ⁓ it's like rural food, you know, quite interesting that you say that. But let me know, when did it start becoming a mission? You know, I mean, of course you like the taste of it.

But when did you start deciding, okay, this is gonna become a mission and I'm going to really educate others on the importance of it?

speaker-1 (06:30)
It was a snowball effect, ⁓ I'll be honest. It started with, you know, being in class learning about French cuisine, Italian cuisine, all these different ⁓ globalized foods and not really getting the same courtesy given to African foods, which minimizes you as someone, you know, who's black studying food, trying to find yourself on the plates that you're learning.

And and as someone whose culture's so focused on food when we gather, it felt like a disservice. So I started working on creating experiences where I focused a lot on, you know, our African food. and I started also then picking up the immediate rejection from people. You know, like you mentioned, it was like

old people food. And people people had this sort of perception that it's poverty food. And I mean, yeah. A lot of like the colonial apartheid history goes into that psychologically. But I I felt it a like it became a mission to become one of the voices that helps bring it back into the forefront of the food that we are learning.

⁓ and it became a very stubborn mission. I struggled to get a lot of like sources for recipes when I was studying that had African food ⁓ that I grew up with. I struggled to get any information on my bedlead that wasn't just based on, you know, the climate properties or the the ⁓ antioxidants or the sort of the the very sciencey part. So it came as a

speaker-0 (08:04)
So.

speaker-1 (08:06)
As a stubborn mission to make sure that I could honor you know, the food that raised me in a way that felt very emotional, ambitious, aspirational, ⁓ and I didn't need to disconnect from it in order to feel like I've made it in life.

speaker-0 (08:22)
Mm-hmm. That was quite interesting. one point that you bring across that resonates with me is when you're talking about how food is a big part of our culture and you were looking for...

Well, yeah, grains or maybe food that that is tied to our culture when you're so exposed to the Western side of things. And I think for me, one thing that's quite a well that comes across in our culture is also just the culture of using everything, you know, and you talk about route to tip, you know, cooking everything, we're not wasting anything. So I'd like to know or maybe help me understand.

how our culture has been lost in mainstream food systems, I'd say.

speaker-1 (09:04)
I think the first part of it comes with the assumption that, you know, our people don't have the food knowledge systems. despite the fact that we've kept them alive for millennia. you see it in you see it in sort of how people describe other cuisines and then when it comes to things like chakalaka or, you know, maguinya, there's sort of no nuance to it. It's sort of like

You put them together and that's it. Even though we all know that the properties and the way you do it becomes it's more intricate, right? The fermentation, if you ask anyone who's made tomoso ya mabele like they will tell you they've struggled, it's it's gone sour, it went moldy. There's a lot of science that goes into our food. And the black people that have this knowledge.

aren't usually credited but become sources of studies, you know, for like PhDs and and master's studies where they are asked all these questions and then they're erased from the narrative. And then we lose a lot of our culture and our cultural nuance based on the fact that, you know, our food is just there because it it it happened to be. Like there's no history to it. There's no formalized

⁓ it's it's very interesting. there's a study that we did where you can go back to who made the first soup, for example. But if you take it down into what's what's a soup like for Mosotho a dulang QwaQwa or you know, free state or versus Mosotho a dulang Lesotho, there's no book that tells you that. There's no resource that tells you that. And

We've been masters of sustainability for the longest time through the food we cook because we knew that you honor every part of the plant, of the animal. And it's not things which is why it's very funny when I have to re-explain them back, because it's not things that are new to the people. It's new terms. But it's not new living. It's things we've always done. But it also comes at the realization that because of the

speaker-0 (10:59)
exactly.

speaker-1 (11:08)
you know, constant push out due to intellectualizing their practices and then claiming they don't have the nuance of them, they haven't necessarily been considered in terms of the effects they've had on sustainability.

speaker-0 (11:23)
Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. I think it's a conversation that I'm constantly having myself to say. think a lot of what is being coined as sustainability is really what Africans or, you know, what I grew up seeing happen. And like you're saying, because we didn't intellectualize it or there wasn't

the language for it or the language that is marketable. you know, it looks, you know, appealing, I mean, for the general audience, I'd say, but it's there and we've always been doing it. And I want to touch a little bit on the climate aspect, because you said that when you were doing the research for the study, you saw that a lot of what was coming up was really more of the, the climate or the,

scientific properties of the plant. right now with the whole discussion on climate change, they're seeing like sorghum and millet are really more climate resistant and all of this. But just so that we touch on it a little bit, I'd like you to help me make a climate case plain for somebody who isn't a scientist who hasn't come across this research. Why is sorghum the grain that actually fits the future that we're heading into?

now that we're seeing the effects of climate change.

speaker-1 (12:35)
I'll give you a a scenario. So say you are living on a plot of land, which is what happened to a lot of people during apartheid where there aren't many nutrients in the soil and you don't have a lot of running water. You don't have a lot of, you know, water that will be irrigation or anything like that.

speaker-0 (12:39)
.

speaker-1 (12:55)
you then find yourself, you know, in a space where the grain that grain seems to grow and thrive in that environment despite the lack of like constant watering, despite the lack of like

knowledge on how to constantly tend to it is the sorghum plant because it's you know drought resistant it uses less water and and you you try planting wheat because you know or maize because these are the other grains that you used to and you find that they need double three times four times as much water and you end up

using more resources than you have to try keep this plant alive, but it doesn't even give you the amount of benefits when it comes to the nutrition side, the returns on your soil, it leaches the soil. You need to constantly plow the soil. Sorghum, you know, you planted this year, next year you can leave it as it is and it just allow it to stem again before you plow it out. So there's a lot of that goes into the effort put into

the plant ⁓ from a resource perspective that sorghum just works better as opposed to the other, you know, sort of alien plants on our land because it was made for this land. The only thing is that, you know, you have to be very cognizant of the environment or the type of sorghum you have based on the predators that occur naturally in the environment. So if you're having sweet sorghum

most likely to get eaten by birds. Okay. As as there's a song by one of my favorite ⁓ jazz artists, Vusi Mahlasela And you know, and and even Tsepo Tshola where both of them had have sung about birds and what they do to the Mabele plant. And it's like it's like this constant thing. You know, it's this constant reminder that we exist in an ecosystem with other other beings.

speaker-0 (14:27)
Okay

Yeah.

speaker-1 (14:52)
and that's how I actually got more into it. You know, South Africa was going through as Cape Town was going through a drought at some point and they were nearing a day zero. And there were concerns as to, you know, the plants that can survive and resist the harsh climate they were under. And as I was doing my research, I was like, but here's this plant and no one is, you know, planting it and

You know, it it feeds so much into food security, into food sustainability, soil regeneration. So it was a lot of like thoughts as to how do I get more people to understand the benefits of this plant for our, you know, sustainable ecosystem in order for them to see that the benefits go beyond the plate.

speaker-0 (15:36)
And we're going to get to the plate. That's the part that I think you're also going to give a lot of insight on. But I would say you sit at the intersection of food science and culture. Right. And I think it's such a it's quite an interesting and a beautiful place to be in. And, know, when you're looking at South Africa's food system today,

when we're taking now, still taking the climate perspective, how exposed are we, would you say? And how does leaning back into our culture and indigenous ways actually change that positioning?

speaker-1 (16:10)
You know, it's it's ⁓ it's very funny you say that because I've always considered myself multidisciplinary. looking at food from a social You know, I look at food from a sociocultural perspective, but I also look at it from a science perspective, but I also consider it from a hospitality perspective. and there is a there's an intersection there that

I see like as a a beautiful you know spot on that Venn diagram of where we all sort of capitalize sustainably on this beautiful plant and all other indigenous foods and send to the indigenous people and you know the localized ⁓ food systems around them. And I think South Africa is still at the apex of a lot of westernization in our diet.

And aspiration is given into what the West, you know, does and what the West says. And what then is left behind is considered the food of poor people, people without, you know, having progressed in life. and there's this nuance of rejection immediately for a lot of indigenous foods. And this doesn't just go to indigenous food.

foods in the sense of like moroho and you know ting but also in the way that we eat and where we eat everything, you know, from trotter to snout. You know and and you sort of start seeing how people relegate the the responsibility of who deserves to eat what on the food system in terms of that is you know this is what's meant for you and your earning grade and then

This is meant for the people here. Like you can buy so much bones when you're in the township, but you can't buy that when you're in the city, you know, as readily or as easily. you can buy a lot of inids and tripe and affel when you're living within the villages and within townships. But when you come into town, you know, recently companies have started sort of getting more into selling that.

more accessibly. But there's still the implication that it's, you know, poor you you're eating it as a struggle. You're not eating it because you're honoring it. You're not eating it because it's this beautiful part of the animal or it has its own properties from a nutrient perspective. You're just eating it because you it's that time of the month and you don't have money. You know. So so a lot of the

question of how we balance our food basket would go back into understanding how the indigenous people have survived and how we can adopt some of those practices into our society to create an environment where we don't have such food high food wastage and we still have a good balance of you know supply across the different regions and across the different you know

earning grades that they we've put and we you know sort of banked people under yeah yeah it's and it's very interesting you see it in like some of the the ⁓ assumptions people have you know where they assume that tripe is such a black people food but if you look at Italian cuisine and you look at like you know cuisine of the some of the people in Scotland, it is part of the culture.

And it if it we shouldn't wait for them to come and tell us that, this is, you know, the the best way to eat an Italian tribe before we like, ⁓ it's edible.

speaker-0 (19:28)
this is nice. Yeah.

speaker-1 (19:29)
Which we often fall into, yeah.

speaker-0 (19:32)
Hmm. No, absolutely. I definitely share the same sentiments and I think, yeah, it's something that a lot of people should start to really interrogate, say, are you only going to start appreciating our food when it's been marketed by, you know, the Western world? But yeah, absolutely. But, you know,

I realized that there's this conversation that was happening in the media that the reason why, what is it, sorghum isn't a grain of choice anymore is because there isn't any demand. so the farmers aren't really planting a lot of it. And South Africa really moved from being an exporter or a potential exporter of sorghum to now importing it from the U.S.

Now, I'm just really curious hear your thoughts in terms of this paradox where we have this perfect climate crop that we, know, as indigenous to our land and we see that production in the country is declining from where you sit. Do you think, I don't know, maybe you can, because you have these different perspectives from the, from like retail, from the kitchen, from research.

What is driving this decline? Is it the farmer? Is it the shop? Is it us the consumers who have been buying this crop and so production like take me a little bit through through your thoughts on that?

speaker-1 (20:53)
I love this question because I've spent the last few years interrogating the very same, you know, ⁓ sentiment by having conversations with people within government, within the big retail, chefs and and then talking to consumers and trying to understand where this disconnect arrives. I'll take it from the very top. So

speaker-0 (21:08)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (21:18)
If you consider South Africa's sorghum relationship, during apartheid when we, you know, struggled with food access as black people, the food that was sort of left in terms of availability was the hardy foods and the foods that survived terrible climate, which was like sorghum mabele. You know, it was one of those things that it it it became ⁓ quite popular. And because it was also

highly nutritious, a lot of the businesses that had mines, and if you look at like people in the Vaal where we're working in steel alloy companies, and people that did very hard labor that required high energy, they would then be supplied with Mabele. ⁓ there was this brand of porridge, phuzamandla can we remember it as a kid? Because our parents came up with the

speaker-0 (22:03)
Yeah, I remember.

speaker-1 (22:07)
Parents brought it ⁓ from work because it was to make sure that you know you you have enough nutrients to come back to work the next day and they'd bring it home and we'd eat it and you know that sort of thing. Yes. And at some point that ended, right? Because there was a decline in like that industry as well, and retrenchments and all that kind of thing. And then it goes back to the basis of basis of people also loved Maltebela, right?

And that became then discontinued a year or two ago. And there was a lot of flag from the consumers because why are you discontinuing it? ⁓ we were, you know, enjoying the product. We were w we want more of the product. And the sort of feedback you got from that manufacturer is that there wasn't enough demand. And

My thing is it's very difficult to gauge demand when you've taken a primary food source and added vat on it, which is, you know, the tax that goes into foods that are considered above the the the typical basket buy. But you've removed that from maize and you've removed that from all these other grains. So the customer isn't reaching for maize because they

you know, that's all they know. They're reaching for it because that's what they can afford. Yeah, they're because you've priced them out and they're incentivized to do it. And you've priced them out of Mabele and they buy it when they're having mokete and they're making, you know, ting and they're making mqombothi and they're making all these different things. So you've priced them out of this grain and then you're asking them, why aren't you buying it? You know

speaker-0 (23:24)
incentivized to do it.

And it becomes a... wonder why.

speaker-1 (23:46)
And then it becomes a very contentious question of what came first, you know, chicken or egg. so I've tried to communicate the grain in as much as I can with people through the many talks I've had where I've asked people, Do you know sorghum? And they'll say, No. And I'll say, Have you had Maltibela? And they'll say, Yes. And I'll say, Well, that's sorghum. mabele is sorghum. Yeah. So there's also the lack of information that the consumer has to this product.

And the assumed, you know, consumer is also not being included in a very authentic way. You know, they're just they're just being considered like, ⁓ just take this, you know, you c you don't have any other choice. so it it makes it very difficult to create a viable product system because there's not a lot of support from, you know, a legislation perspective in terms of removing this VAT.

There's not a lot of support from a manufacturing perspective in terms of incentivizing farmers to plant the grain because they'll be buying it. And then there's not a lot of incentivising the retailers to stock it, because the farmers have said they're not planting it. The manufacturers said they're not supplying it. So why would the retailer take the risk to put it on their shelf? And then the consumer goes to the store and they don't see it. So they just consider that normal.

And it becomes the cycle that just eats into itself.

Kabelo (25:05)
so here's some insight. South Africa's sorghum sector has shrunk dramatically since the 1990s.

Planted area has fallen by about 75% to roughly 41,000 hectares, and production has dropped by just over half. Over the same period, the country has become increasingly reliant on imports, often from the United States, as local supply has struggled to keep up with the demand. As agricultural economist Wandile Sihlobo argues,

This decline is less about farmers refusing to grow sorghum than about weakening demand. Consumers have shifted toward other staples and farmers have rationally followed returns into crops like maize and soybean. There was a brief window of optimism around 2014 when a proposed sorghum-based biofuel industry

including a major Bothaville plant promised to create jobs and absorb large volumes of production. But insufficient policy support meant that these projects never materialized. And by around twenty sixteen the opportunity had effectively collapsed. While smallholder yields remain a constraint,

The deeper issue is a self-reinforcing cycle, like Zandile claims. Weak demand limits market development, which in turn discourages production. in that sense, the central shift has not been agronomic capacity.

But the changing consumption patterns.

speaker-0 (26:37)
Yeah, I hear it because I'm sitting in, I'm like, yeses. But tell me, so who whose job is it or whose responsibility is then to build the demand if it's not there? is it the government? Is it the retailers? Is it the chefs, know, people who are marketing this as something that you can put on your plate? Is it us, the consumers like

Who's actually supposed to do those?

speaker-1 (26:59)
If you participate in the food system, you're responsible in some way for being a part of it, whether you know it or not. And this goes for the consumer from a sense of buying the product when they see it on the a chef's menu. this goes to government for making sure legislation looks for the indigenous people through ensuring the food is accessible.

This goes into the government funding, you know, small scale farmers in order to allow them to plant and protect the plant itself. And then it also goes into retailers as a responsible person who places accessibility and availability into the consumers hands. And then it goes all the way back.

into consumers, you know, as a matter of like the relationship we have with food. But I understand that this is such a long and convoluted cycle, which is why I come at it as someone who's studied consumer science to say, let me help you drive demand by educating the consumer as to what this plant is. I've done half of your job in terms of trying to get them to want the plant.

Now it's over to you, retail, to make sure it's available for them. And it's over to you, government, to make sure retailers incentivize by removing that VAT. So it goes through multiple ⁓ you know, phases of onus ⁓ in the cycle. And I want to think that each person in the food system plays some sort of part in it.

speaker-0 (28:32)
you put it very well. And you helped me segue into the work that you're doing, which is the Sorghum Agenda at least that's part of the work that you're doing that really caught my attention. And I want you to tell us a little bit about it.

you're educating us, but in a way that makes ⁓ our heritage desirable. So tell me, tell me like, what was the plan, you know, when you say you want to put Sorghum back on the plate, what does that look like in practice according to the work that you're doing?

speaker-1 (29:01)
Yeah. It's such a it's been such a long journey. It initially you know, I'd say I informally started in twenty eighteen, ⁓ where I was trying to add sorghum into a menu of a restaurant that had like a pop up restaurant for my ⁓ studies. And I could not

add it in because there was no official recipe from a chef or recipe developer that I could reference. And that made it very difficult for me to include foods I knew you know from a eating perception onto the

the plates I was making as someone who's telling the consumer what's the, you know, the latest trends in food and what's the latest way to eat food. And so I couldn't reflect it back. And I've I've I then went back into you know looking at my relationship with the plant. And when I had the opportunity to develop products in my fourth year, I decided to stubbornly say I will have to use sorghum as part of my project.

I will I will learn about it. I will take the risk. I'm gonna be stubborn and and it was something that wasn't done, you know, at the time. There wasn't a a recipe for the the cookies, there wasn't and and the idea was creating a product that someone who is gluten intolerant could eat.

speaker-0 (30:10)
Yeah, I'm so happy.

speaker-1 (30:27)
Someone who, you know, wants some additional fiber, ⁓ can still indulge in a treat and still make sure that, you know, I highlighted a core grain that a lot of people were not exposed to in that sense. 'cause 'cause y basically it's something that's familiar to the people that grew up in, you know, the townships, right? And it became a

speaker-0 (30:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (30:54)
massive manifesto in terms of like I started noticing the massive gaps between what people know about the plant and what they perceive about the plant's potential. And I started also then playing around into showing people that, you know, you're rejecting it from a sense of bias, whether you know it or not. and and you'd be more willing to accept it in a form that's, you know, familiar to you, like a cookie.

Yes, and and you know, moving on from cookies to make, you know, things like magwenya things like bohobe, and showcasing people that yes, this is what you've been taught, but here's what I'm teaching you to say this plant can be so amazing in your kitchen in terms of the the versatility it has. And in terms of like

putting it back on the plate. It's to just rebuild the self esteem and the pride we have around our foods. You know, when I was in primary school, I remember there was a time my lunchbox was like papa and like cabbage and I forgot what. And I was so ashamed. I was like, my goodness, every I was like everyone is eating I was like everyone is eating sandwiches and pies and burgers and these pretty, you know, all the Western foods basically.

And you know, you sort of get laughed at for coming to school with like pap But no one gets laughed at for coming to school with pasta. Exactly. So so I started, you know, trying to reshift where do we think sorghum belongs? Like do we think it belongs at home, hidden away from everyone else? Or is it something that, you know, when I'm going to work I can make proudly and, you know, show off and allow more people

also engage in it. yeah, so it it became more about driving the sense of like our food also holds quite a lot of currency in this food system and we don't we're not just a footnote.

speaker-0 (32:47)
Absolutely. I'm so impressed. I'm really impressed with the work that you're doing. I think a lot of us can relate to it where you're just like, ⁓ these people actually hate me. But no, that food was nutritious. There was nothing wrong with that. And I think as we are

the new adults now and you're really helping us do, you know, the work for us. Cause now I can go teach my niece and my nephew that, no, it's fine. ⁓ mabele a shapo you know, and you're giving us all these recipes to be like, no, we'll make, you're going to take that. It's, it's nice. It's, it's still aesthetic, but you, you know, you're, getting accustomed to this grain So I like that. And I think, I'm not sure if it's something I read because yeah, I was, I was just doing all my.

But I think you made reference to caviar that caviar was once like peasant food, you know, but now it's, it's luxurious. And now I really want to go into what, like, how can we move, and I think you're really doing that quite beautifully, but just if you're going to have to spell it out for us, how can we move sorghum into like that premium space, you know, without pricing out the communities that it comes from?

It started off as people who didn't have a lot who were working, fishing and stuff, that's what they ate. But now it's like, you're eating caviar, it's premium. But now the rest of the people who, this was just their normal diet, now they're being priced out. So how do we make sure that we don't end up in the same place with sorghum?

speaker-1 (34:15)
Yeah. you know, that question was raised to me. I remember it was a interview on the radio and my argument was that was that I don't think food necessarily needs to become premium, you know. and I don't think, you know, the value of food lies in whether it's premium or not. It's food.

And mabele is a basic food and it should remain a basic food and should be seen as a basic food. And the iterations can become premium in terms of like the sense of, you know, the different iterations that you're making. So if you're making something that sits in a fine dining restaurant versus something that sits with Mme Mamokete at the corner, that can be very different in how it's positioned. But the core

mabele the core of it shouldn't be a luxury because what that does is it actually pushes the very people who've kept it alive and who've sustained it out of the food system. And they are, you know, and and you we saw this happen with quinoa, where the people of Bolivia and Peru couldn't afford the food that was once, you know, their peasant food. And it

Totally ruined the landscape, it ruined the land, it ruined the access, and it happened with the people who, you know, grow matcha and were priced out of it, who used it for tea ceremonies. and and sorghum for us is used we're getting for like mgumbo tea, it's used for ding, it's used by people in the villages. It's not something that like you don't see people wanting to make pap premium, right? Because pap is pap

speaker-0 (35:53)
court.

speaker-1 (35:53)
And the same is how I see sorghum and like the other indigenous foods. Like I think the rush to exotify a lot of the indigenous foods comes at a peril of trying to be globally relevant and we don't have to pander to the global people. a lot of what I speak to is to the African customer who is within the indigenous plant of, you know, like I always preach regional indigenous supply in terms of

Eat what is available in your region for the most part and have access to it. And I think keeping it as a basic neat like meat state ⁓ kind of product is one of the best things we can do to make sure and ensure that it doesn't price out any of the communities it comes from, that it empowers the communities it comes from, and that it also

ensures that people don't feel like other to the food that they grew up on.

speaker-0 (36:50)
Yeah. And that for me is peak sustainability. it's it's right spot on for me. You mentioned that it depends on where you're putting this. And I know you've taken this conversation onto fine dining tables, onto Woolworth Taste and the Gates Foundation Nigeria.

Does the argument change depending on where you're talking or who you're talking to, whether it's a share for policymaker or are you still preaching the same message that you just gave us?

speaker-1 (37:19)
The the core story remains the same, but the narrative changes slightly for the audience. So when I'm speaking directly to someone who does their weekly shop, I'm speaking as someone who's your neighbor and I'm telling you about like, you know, this thing that you should try out 'cause it's great for you. When I'm speaking to the global panels and I'm speaking outside of, you know, our region.

It's more so to say, we know we have this thing. You're not gonna sell it back to us. But you but you're gonna allow us to succeed and thrive because you have the power within that food system and you control a lot of these back and forths of, you know, ⁓ the resources we have. And you're not gonna patent us out of it because we are the you you didn't discover it, you know. That's sort of the argument of like

Ensuring people know that we know what we're holding and we know it's worth and it's not something that can then be sold back to us. And when I then speak into Yes, yes, you know, and when I then go into the nuance of like fine dining and ⁓ places like taste, it's more so to show people this is very versatile, whether you wanna entertain or you're having it as a comfort food or you want something that is

speaker-0 (38:20)
her packaging and...

speaker-1 (38:37)
⁓ delectable and luxurious or something that's very homey and rustic. so it's showing just the different scales of its use, but still making people feel like it's familiar and it's, you know, something that they recognize and it's not foreign to them.

speaker-0 (38:54)
No, I hear you. What's one of the biggest misconceptions that you feel you still have to break with maybe the farmers, us the shoppers and just the industry in general?

speaker-1 (39:05)
If it's if there's one core misconception I can think of, it's that I'm trying to make sorghum premium, which is like the last thing I want. and this comes off I think a lot in when I consider, you know, conversations I have where people start thinking of it from a capitalist perspective, it makes no sense to me because I'm just like, why would I want you to sell reason?

Yeah, I'm like, that's not the reason. And the reason I'm telling you how people use it and who the people that use it are is because I want you to realize that the market value doesn't lie in you making the biggest profits. It's just in you supplying it to the people and and having them access that. And that's enough. Sometimes we should be okay with that. ⁓ so the misconception is that we need to drive everything into this highest capital, you know, gain.

speaker-0 (39:50)
Mm.

speaker-1 (39:57)
in order for it to actually be viable for us and breaking the shackles of people thinking that profits mean demand. Yeah. It couldn't be further from the truth. Our unemployment is far too high for that to be the truth. Our food insecurity is too high for that to be the truth. And you are locking out, you know, a bulk of the people that are within your your your ecosystem.

just based on how you want to classify them by their, you know, their their class ⁓ pockets and how much they can earn and determining what food they deserve to buy from your establishment. So the biggest thing for me is ensuring that people understand that sorghum is a basic food. You will serve it at as a basic food in in terms of like the pricing, in terms of like the access, in terms of the availability.

But you will also ensure that you're serving the best quality of sorghum to that customer and you're not just, you know, giving them the low grade just because it's cheaper than your typical other grades. so it's it's more so around the knocking the perception of what people assume about the consumer that buys sorghum and ensuring that.

the consumer themselves doesn't feel like it's being taken away from them at the end of the day.

speaker-0 (41:12)
Yes. No, that's incredible. I think you've broken one for me already, because when I saw you, I was like, this is premium. This is. But I like when you're saying, no, no, no, that's not the point. You're missing the point. And so I think the work has already begun. But I want to do a little like rapid fire closing thing before you go. So just quick.

one sorghum dish everyone listening should try this month.

speaker-1 (41:35)
It's gonna seem like it's a a very futile thing, but just the porridge. It is easy to make, it is beneficial for the gut and it is so easy to constantly go back to.

speaker-0 (41:46)
Yeah, okay, that's great because I got my sorghum so I'm gonna do that tomorrow and finish the sentence. The future of African food is...

speaker-1 (41:55)
In the hands of the food custodians in the indigenous hands.

speaker-0 (42:00)
And one thing a listener can do this week to back the Sorghum Agenda

speaker-1 (42:06)
Tell a friend. Make it a conversation.

and build that sort of, you know, community.

speaker-0 (42:10)
Ok, love that. And finally, where can people find you and the Sorghum Agenda?

speaker-1 (42:15)
I am on Substack. just my full name's Zandile Queen Finxa And I'm on Instagram as Queen Finxa Queen underscore Finxa And I'm busier on Twitter as well, but you know, same, same sort of handles. But yeah, I'm also on TikTok.

speaker-0 (42:33)
Okay.

speaker-1 (42:33)
Zandile Finxa

speaker-0 (42:34)
All right, Zandile, thank you so much for the history, for the science, know, just for making the case that our heritage isn't behind us and we can really, you know, carry it forward with us as we're tackling not only all these big climate problems, but, know, food security and everything, but just to celebrate our heritage. So thank you very much for making the time.

speaker-1 (42:57)
thank you for having me again.

speaker-0 (42:59)
to everyone listening, if this shifted something for you, do one small thing, share it with someone who still thinks sorghum is just porridge. And you know, maybe put a pot of motoho this week, like Zandile suggested. I'm Kabelo Rathobei and this has been Candid Sustainability Podcast.