The Loving and the Loathing of Automation

We are back for Season 2, and we are kicking things off with a topic that hits close to home. Automation can be amazing. Mobile check deposits, quick self-checkout, ordering ahead. It saves time and keeps life moving.

Until it doesn’t.

In this episode, we share a real-world headache from our new role as an Amazon Hub partner, where one small scanning glitch turned into hours of dead ends, circular answers, and the classic problem of modern life: a system so automated that nobody can actually fix it when it breaks.

We talk about where automation shines, where it falls apart, and why some moments should never be handled by a menu, a bot, or a script. Especially anything involving stress, loss, fear, or big decisions that require nuance and care.

And we come back to the heart of what we believe, and what we build our business around at WinternetWeb: when things go sideways, people do not need a canned response. They need a real human who can say, “I can help,” and “We’ll figure it out together.”

If this episode resonates, follow the show and leave a review. It helps more people find us, and helps keep the human part of technology alive

🎧 Wired Together is produced by WinternetWeb Technologies, a family-run web design and tech studio based in Bracey, Virginia.
💻 Visit us at winternetweb.com 

Transcript

Melanie 0:03

Welcome back. We are finally back from our little bit of vacation for um the holidays. Yeah. And so it is January and we are back for season two.

Jason 0:16

Huzzah! Season two, and look, we thank everyone for you know um writing it out. I know we ended up with 19 episodes, and I'll just give you a uh a little hint. December is so busy we recorded the 20th one and never published it. But we that might be like special content. We may put it out there as an Easter egg. Sure. We haven't decided how we're gonna do that.

Melanie 0:40

Seems like a little bit of a I don't even remember what we said. A lost little episode that just never got published.

Jason 0:46

It's kind of hard to publish it now because obviously we're gonna talk about Christmas coming up and taking off for December and things like that. Um so yeah, but it it's still in the archives, it's still kind of like one of those things that um in a historical sense is part of us. It's like the long lost episode 20. Maybe we'll just wait five years when we're famous.

Melanie 1:08

Right.

Jason 1:09

And then we'll sell it. I don't know how, but we will.

Melanie 1:12

Sure.

Jason 1:13

So anyway. Hope you all are having a good beginning of your year. Um we're excited about this, but yeah.

Melanie 1:20

We we are parents, you know. When our kids are off, we're off. So we're not off, you know. We know we continue to work.

Jason 1:27

No, we're off all right.

Melanie 1:28

We continue to work, but you know, as far as like there are certain things that you just kind of just the flow of family, right?

Jason 1:34

Just trying to juggle.

Melanie 1:35

They they had their winter break, so we kind of uh changed it up a little bit. Slower mornings, stuff like that, you know.

Jason 1:42

Yeah, I get that completely.

Melanie 1:44

So that is where we were. We had a lovely um Christmas in and New Year's season and uh got to see a lot of family and yeah, we did friends that are family, and so we are back in action, back in rolling back into January and turn the calendar over and whatnot.

Jason 2:07

All right, here we go.

Melanie 2:08

Let's let's do this. You know, we are we are um a little underfed. We we decided to have some uh um changes. Changes.

Jason 2:17

Yeah, um and we've done this before in so many different ways, but always good to cleanse. I mean I yeah. I was consuming too many calories, especially at night.

Melanie 2:31

So um But we are we're kicking off some some New Year's uh I'm already feeling better. Some New Year's um, you know newness. Newness, like hitting it off. Um something that's not new though. We're what we're gonna kind of go into and talk about a little bit of a sure, sad story, old story, but uh kind of in our new um environment, this is giving new light. So um we're gonna talk about I call it the loving and the loathing of automation. Um so yes, we are in such an automated world. Sure.

Jason 3:13

A lot of technology, a lot of things doing stuff.

Melanie 3:16

Right, right. You know, um that's it's there's parts of it that's absolutely awesome. You know, I can I oh yeah, I have done the the Dunkin' Donuts app and it just kind of sent a um sent an order and order in and you you went by and picked it up, that kind of thing. So it was like, whoa, that's amazing. We're a very small town, so we're we're just now getting used to this. Um, but you know, it so certain things that have um probably been in most people's lives for a while are kind of getting a little more here, and so we're able to use and utilize some of that automation.

Jason 3:55

Well, it would say one thing I'd have liked over the past years is depositing checks.

Melanie 4:01

Right, mobile deposits auto.

Jason 4:03

What do I need to drive to the bank if I'm not gonna be in going?

Melanie 4:06

We do not have a close bank that is the next town over, so for us that is awesome.

Jason 4:11

With a mule, it takes you probably about five hours to get there.

Melanie 4:15

Right. Thank God it's not a meal. Um, so you know, certain things that are excellent with automation. When I go into the grocery store and I have five items, running through and just going ahead and checking myself out is so easy.

Jason 4:32

Yeah, if I have 40, I have a panic attack. That's the loving.

Melanie 4:36

Here is the loving part of automation where yes, there are things that work really well because of automation.

Jason 4:41

Yeah, they do.

Melanie 4:42

There's also the loathing.

Jason 4:44

Yep.

Melanie 4:44

Um, I'm also about 25-30 minutes from the grocery store. Nine times out of ten, it's not five items. It's it's the family's week or the family's week and a half to which I am buying. So at that point, I'm gonna look for a person.

Jason 5:03

Oh, yeah.

Melanie 5:04

I really need that person. I need somebody that knows how to very quickly put in the avocado without me having to scan it or trying to find it.

Jason 5:12

If you got kids which you can do, avocado actually is much easier to find.

Melanie 5:15

Yeah. Much further down, like um, you know, red pepper, a little bit harder.

Jason 5:20

Yep, yep. True, true. I get it.

Melanie 5:24

So there is a loathing part. There is parts of which automation maybe doesn't work. Or maybe can take a little bit of a seat and step back.

Jason 5:36

But maybe the system just doesn't isn't quite as reliable and you need the human to step in.

Melanie 5:42

Right. And so, you know, a lot of a wired together is what we talk about is, you know, um, where's the human and where's technology? And then how do we work together? So this is gonna be a a love story or a loath story. Right, depends. Just decide.

Jason 5:59

Right, and maybe back and forth.

Melanie 6:00

Right. Of automation. Yeah. Um, so Winternet Web has decided to do something new.

Jason 6:08

Yeah, I guess this is now becoming public.

Melanie 6:10

Um we are a hub for uh Amazon delivery.

Jason 6:15

Yeah.

Melanie 6:16

And it kind of makes sense. We're a big Amazon area. Um, we uh the the nature of our community community is um a little more retiree, so it it kind of makes sense that a lot of people do a lot of packaging.

Jason 6:32

Sure. You got a lot of people that it's not easy for them to get out. Right.

Melanie 6:36

And well, after I've driven through some of their neighborhoods, it's not easy to get out, by the way.

Jason 6:41

It's not easy to get in either. It's not easy to get in.

Melanie 6:43

Um and so we have started the hub delivery. Um, we are kind of in the middle or like right off 85, so we're easy access. Um, and so we're very in the middle of where um, I guess the hub of where our interactivity is. Sure. So it makes sense that we're doing this. We are also, you know, a box store, we're a building.

Jason 7:07

Yeah.

Melanie 7:08

So that helps. Um, and so we've kind of started this little process, um, which is great.

Jason 7:16

It is.

Melanie 7:17

It's really cool that we can um oh my gosh, I've lived here my entire life. Oh, yeah. I've known, you know, my community very strongly. It's like in that role-playing game. I've never seen some places that I've been to.

Jason 7:28

Right, it's like in that role-playing game, and you look at the map and it's like, what's this gray area of here? I didn't know that was there. It's like I've I've like actually gone into the crevices of the dungeon of the gray areas that I I had no business making the turn on that road to see it anyway. But it's like, wow, the world the world map is opening up.

Melanie 7:48

Right, and we we live on a lake or live near a lake. Um, we don't live on a lake, but we live near the lake. No, we don't, and so um the the views, you know.

Jason 8:01

Oh wow, this is nice.

Melanie 8:02

So again, there's so much positive in this. It is, definitely. Here's a slightly negative side of the story is automation. Oh yeah. Automation works when it is supposed to.

Jason 8:16

It yeah.

Melanie 8:17

It is one of those things where yes, automation is absolutely excellent. Until it's right, and then when it's broken, there's it's like nothing anybody can do.

Jason 8:33

A quote I've always said, I have no idea where I picked it up, but computers make very fast, accurate mistakes.

Melanie 8:41

Very fast, accurate mistakes, exactly.

Jason 8:43

When it's broke, it's broke.

Melanie 8:44

They also make very fast, accurate, um what? Help.

Jason 8:51

Mm-hmm.

Melanie 8:52

If they work.

Jason 8:54

Sure. Exactly. You can get your answer if the system complies with the system is input is doing what it's supposed to do. Sure, right, right.

Melanie 9:02

Here's the problem the system doesn't always do what it's supposed to do.

Jason 9:05

Right.

Melanie 9:06

Something happens. Uh human era or automation era, we actually don't know, but something will quirk, something will, you know, glitch.

Jason 9:17

Yeah.

Melanie 9:18

And then all of a sudden, nobody knows what to do. It is a stop.

Jason 9:22

Right.

Melanie 9:23

And um, that was our experience this week. So this is our the little story time of our experience this week is what didn't work.

Jason 9:32

Right.

Melanie 9:33

And then what happens from what didn't work is nobody can help.

Jason 9:38

Yeah.

Melanie 9:38

You kind of when it's something is over-automated, then all of a sudden there's no one there that can actually say, Oh, I know your problem and I've got this.

Jason 9:50

Sure, yeah.

Melanie 9:51

You know, and so here's where the human element is so important.

Jason 9:55

Yeah, it's it's vital when something goes wrong.

Melanie 9:58

And so um, this just goes into exactly who we are as people, um, who we are as our company is, you know, for us, technology is amazing. Oh, yeah, it's and we can do so much with it, but we are also the fixers of it.

Jason 10:14

Yeah.

Melanie 10:15

So when people are done and they're frustrated and nothing works, and they really would rather throw it out the window, they come to us.

Jason 10:23

Yeah.

Melanie 10:23

And so then we can kind of help through that and that sort of thing. Um when we're done and frustrated and want to throw it out the window, um, that's when it's kind of like, oh wow. There's there's such a bigger picture here.

Jason 10:41

Right. It's like communication is vitally important.

Melanie 10:44

Right.

Jason 10:44

Listening, you know.

Melanie 10:46

And so um the the the main problem is, you know, when you over-automate something, and you know, a Amazon's doing a lovely job as far as trying to get something out there.

Jason 10:58

Yeah.

Melanie 10:58

Um, and so that's great. But at the same time, you know, um it's so automated that it you end up with a situation where there's no human to contact. There's no person to say, okay, let me make this tweak.

Jason 11:18

Right. Well, I mean, sometimes when you build a system like that and you know, there are tweaks at a system, um your people that you deal with don't always understand how it works. Right. They just know, hey, okay, you do this part, you know. Um I'm sorry, you you're wearing the yellow hat, you turn the yellow knob. You're wearing the blue hat, you you push the blue button. I mean, it in a big company's it's kind of done that way because when they hire somebody, I mean, uh it honestly it is an assembly line. Right. You don't really have the big picture. It's logistics. This needs to get here, it travels through the system. Now, when it breaks in the middle somewhere, the person in the middle doesn't know what the people do on, you know, at the beginning of the conveyor belt. And you have no idea what happens after it passes them. So when you're talking about something going wrong, no one really has the big picture.

Melanie 12:10

Right.

Jason 12:10

And no one can say, ah, okay, mm, let's see if that and that and that. You know, it's like when you're talking about the human body and the system, you know, everything works together. It's just a computer. I understand how this works and I understand how this works, therefore this must be the point of failure. But nobody really seems to understand that. And that's that's with a lot of large industries. Small business, like we've said many, many times, adaptable, understand how it all works together. And I think we we got frustrated when we tried to first off, who do we reach out to? And everyone we reached out to didn't really have a good answer, and it's like, well, why is that? Well, yeah, it's because you're talking to a multi-billion dollar company, would you think, oh wait, that's great. They should have everything. No. They don't have what small business can offer. Right. They don't have the full picture.

Melanie 12:59

They don't have the full picture, which keeps them from being able to to troubleshoot and so the They just go, I don't know. So we ended up with an issue of um things that didn't scan exactly right.

Jason 13:11

Yeah.

Melanie 13:12

And um, so then of course we got the the age old, you know.

Jason 13:16

Did you turn it off? So did you turn it off and turn it back on? Right. I didn't even say that.

Melanie 13:20

Did you, you know, what did you do wrong?

Jason 13:24

You know, and so everything alluded to, okay, well, you made a mistake. Something was wrong.

Melanie 13:29

And it's like, eh no, this really is not I've been doing this correctly for a while now.

Jason 13:34

Right.

Melanie 13:35

Apparently it's working, so something broke. And um it it became this point in time where again, nobody could actually help.

Jason 13:45

Yeah.

Melanie 13:46

Because it was not a situation of um no one had the keys. Right. Nobody had the fix.

Jason 13:55

Right.

Melanie 13:56

And so the only thing you could do was um pretty much return send the back and start over.

Jason 14:03

Let's try it again.

Melanie 14:04

Return to sender and and hope to God that it gets kind of worked out for itself. And so it that was very hard for us to do. We we are small business. And we troubleshoot a lot, and it's like And it's very hard for us to just like admit defeat and say no. We it's like, but this cast we didn't go through, you know, we we went through all of the effort we could.

Jason 14:28

We spent like what, eight hours on it? Didn't even get paid, but anyway, that's not here nor there.

Melanie 14:31

We spent eight hours on on trying to uh talk to whoever we could possibly talk to, try to figure out who had the keys, you know, if you will. Just because again, we're small business, we're used to fixing things ourselves. We weren't used to the concept of oh, well, you know, that's a glitch and just send it back.

Jason 14:51

And it's like, but it's like no, that's it's like that can't happen. That's that's not okay.

Melanie 14:55

That's not okay with me. I didn't finish my project. I have to finish my project, you know. Right.

Jason 15:02

So who did you talk to when I sent them back that fixed it? That's the guy I want to talk to right now, so I can deliver these packages to these people.

Melanie 15:10

Right. And so there was a this huge difference between how we understood what the best practices were were for moving forward. Um and so that kind of led us into well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about human effectiveness versus automation. Um automation is extremely effective when something needs to be done constantly.

Jason 15:36

Yeah.

Melanie 15:36

Um when like a loop.

Jason 15:38

Right.

Melanie 15:38

When something needs to be in a loop, something is a function, um, something needs speed.

Jason 15:44

Yeah.

Melanie 15:44

Again, you've got your five pieces that you just want to go ahead and check out and run out of the the grocery store really fast.

Jason 15:51

Right, right.

Melanie 15:52

Um automation's excellent for that. Automation is not good when you need a a larger picture of understanding.

Jason 16:02

Oh no, yeah.

Melanie 16:04

And so that's where the Winternet Web kind of bases ourselves on is there is this larger area of understanding when it comes to what we do because um we don't like uh things to be overly templated, we don't like things to be overly automated or anything like that. Because if it's slightly interesting and more different, yeah, actually uh certain things like search engine optimization and things like that increase because something is a little more interesting, a little more um there's a little more information, or there's just a little more um uh searchable understanding. And so we like to kind of put that little extra oomph into it, which is not something that's easily automated.

Jason 16:55

No, and I mean in and a template always um will kind of hook you into certain things that you you don't want. You know, it's and when you step back into the bigger picture, sometimes it's like you can picture what the portrait should be. But then now you're trying to choose which of the paint by number is closest to what that looks like. You know what I mean?

Melanie 17:25

Right, yes, I like that analogy.

Jason 17:28

Um and it again it's always with stepping back, but see with a system, with something that is a choice A, B, C, D, E, F, go, down the alphabet, whatever, none of them fit. You know? Um so it's kind of and this is where the relationship with uh if we're building a website for a client, we need to understand um and bring this you know into exactly what we do, but it has to do with the relationship with the person we're building the site for. If we can't understand what they do and why, right, and you know, we have advantages in that we also understand the community.

Melanie 18:07

Exactly.

Jason 18:07

We know the community.

Melanie 18:08

We understand the business's place in the community and why that needs to be highlighted.

Jason 18:12

And and I guess you know, a lot a lot of people in here are kind of surprised by this. When we talk to them about a website, it's like, look, let's set up a meeting and talk. They're like, oh, really? Like, and I'm like, yes, in person. I mean, and not everyone can. I mean, some are counties over, some are states over. I mean, that'd be cool to take a trip, but you know, some are boards, some are municipal, right?

Melanie 18:32

We've got certain, you know, we do have larger um clients, but yeah.

Jason 18:37

But for like, you know, a client that might be, you know, 40 minutes away. They come, we sit around a table, and we, you know, we can look at things together, and oftentimes what we find is we're asking them questions um that you know I guess getting information from them that they didn't know they needed to tell us, you know. Right.

Melanie 19:00

They didn't see that was important about their business, but it's actually important to put online.

Jason 19:07

Oh, okay, you mentioned that. Here's the approach you need to take, and here is this, and you you know, you're the hero. We need to promote you and showcase this, and uh, it's like I didn't even think about it this way. So, but it was that conversation, it's hard to do on the phone, it's much harder to do an email. Impossible. Very hard to do an email, and you know, but setting that relationship, and then all of a sudden you start building trust. And it's not building trust like okay, you see us and we're real people, but it's that collaboration. It's that human spirit that goes back and forth, and then it's kind of like, okay, yeah, I get this. And you know, your understanding, um, you know, I can see this coming together. But yeah. So it's it's different.

Melanie 19:50

It is, and that's why the as far as what matters in um the humor Human interactivity.

Jason 20:01

Um humor's a point too. Humor is a very important thing. That was a good four-minute slip. Yeah. Sorry.

Melanie 20:07

But that human interactivity, um it can make the discernment.

Jason 20:14

Yeah.

Melanie 20:15

That the automation cannot make. And so um we kind of went through a couple of things of why does automation, you know, yes, again, there's all of these really good reasons why it's a great idea. And then what is the reasons why it maybe needs to be pulled back?

Jason 20:36

Okay. And so why can't be trusted as a system all the time?

Melanie 20:42

Why is it maybe uh not useful? When is it the opposite of useful?

Jason 20:47

I got you. When does it get in your way?

Melanie 20:48

When does it get in your way? Um, and so there are certain larger companies um where they kind of need to understand automation again is great, but it does get in the way of certain things. It does. And so that's when automation needs to kind of go, you know, be set aside. Right. Go sit down.

Jason 21:10

Yeah.

Melanie 21:10

Humans are acting. You know, humans are here, we're gonna come into the rescue.

Jason 21:15

Can I interrupt your thought uh on that? Um I think one thing is a lot of these bigger companies, and obviously they're going into automation, as we know, to save money. And they know right, and and they feel like it's you know that if we can provide this service flawlessly, because you know, a lot of programmers, we've all had like at one time had a God complex. We can design this, it's gonna be flawless, it's gonna work. And um, there's there's one character that can be the difference of this works great to it's a hundred percent now broken. And right.

Melanie 21:55

A hundred percent working and a hundred percent broken right and but it's pretty much the only way coding is.

Jason 22:01

I mean, how many times I mean in the past couple months have you seen where a major system had a glitch and then it knocked down like 60% of the internet? You know, yeah, that's been very recent. Because of like one little update. I mean, Cloudflare had its thing and you know, uh these you know other things, and I'm not gonna get into uh so Tangent when I get on it, it was really cool, but it's not gonna be on this episode. But so, yes, the goal sometimes for companies is because we're growing so quickly, we need to create a system that um can you know build to scale, do the things we need it to do, then we need to train people to use it. I think the training part is taking a back seat. I think people are jumping in, but they're not really being told what how they're supposed to interact with this and what the bigger picture is.

Melanie 22:49

Right. We are spending way too much time trying to automate people.

Jason 22:54

Yes, but we are not the thing to automate, right?

Melanie 22:57

Right. And that's the problem, is automated systems are here. Yes, yes, exactly. Absolutely. But we're automated people don't work.

Jason 23:05

No, no, no.

Melanie 23:06

That is that is the opposite of what should be happening right now.

Jason 23:10

Right.

Melanie 23:10

And so we cannot automate people.

Jason 23:13

Right.

Melanie 23:13

We cannot to simply put them in a loop of a function. No, um, and so it w Oh my goodness, do we try to do that in education? Yes. Oh yeah, it does not work.

Jason 23:25

No.

Melanie 23:26

Uh people are not a function. No, people are not an automated system. And so when do these things not work?

Jason 23:33

Yeah.

Melanie 23:33

Um certain services and occupations to which this does not work. Anything that has to do with stress, loss, or fear.

Jason 23:46

Stress, loss, or fear. That makes sense.

Melanie 23:49

I mean, stress obviously An automated system is not emotional.

Jason 23:54

Right.

Melanie 23:54

And because they lack emotion or it lacks emotion, there's no way to actually be able to have a successful automated system in those time periods of stress, loss, or fear.

Jason 24:06

Well, it kind of makes sense because uh I mean, think of even I don't say sports or something where I mean stress can actually be a motivator and a good decision maker for the human.

Melanie 24:17

Sure.

Jason 24:18

Stress can't be quantitative because you know and oftentimes, sometimes in stress, as humans, we make a decision with adrenaline that saves a life. But you can't program that.

Melanie 24:35

No. That's that's a human action.

Jason 24:38

Exactly.

Melanie 24:38

So um things that are stress, loss, and fear are medical issues. Insurance claims, especially after loss.

Jason 24:49

Yeah, that's not something you would want.

Melanie 24:51

Not something that should be automated.

Jason 24:53

Yeah.

Melanie 24:53

Uh billing disputes involving hardships.

Jason 24:57

Right, true.

Melanie 24:58

And customer complaints. All of these things make it very difficult when a company decides to automate.

Jason 25:07

Yeah.

Melanie 25:09

When they do not have that person that says, Hey, I'm listening and I can help.

Jason 25:15

Yeah.

Melanie 25:17

And how many times have we dealt with this? And this is the point in time where we are having such a generational issue.

Jason 25:25

Yeah.

Melanie 25:26

Because the older generation is trying to deal with things, especially medical issues and insurance. And then they're getting automated. Your call is important to a couple of your call, yes. Press one for, you know, if this has to do with an insurance claim.

Jason 25:40

Right, right.

Melanie 25:41

Yeah, and it becomes very frustrating. Sure. Yes, an automated system cannot be sincere in their um bereavement. You know, it's not gonna work like that.

Jason 25:52

No, it's no, it should not.

Melanie 25:54

And bigger companies need to understand that there is that need for the human element when it comes to certain things with stress, loss, and fear.

Jason 26:01

That's true.

Melanie 26:03

And if we can't get back to that point, um, because yes, so many things, insurance claims are easy to automate if my you know toilet breaks and it's raining in my uh bathroom. Right, you know, I sure let me make an automated claim, let's try to figure this out.

Jason 26:21

Yeah.

Melanie 26:23

That should never happen when it's a loss.

Jason 26:25

It's interesting because I'm thinking back 20 years ago, and maybe we had a better idea about automation then, or it was um the I would call certain companies and they would put you on hold. And I learned if you got if you got the yelling and cussing, y all of a sudden you were put to the front of the queue.

Melanie 26:52

On hold?

Jason 26:53

Yeah. And I mean, um So they always listen. Well, I think what it was, it's you're talking about, you know, the the emotional component and how that automation automation shouldn't handle that, but the human is necessary in that. Right. So I'm thinking at that point in time, maybe they realized that. Now, of course, you know, businesses weren't quite as broad as they were in the sense, and automation wasn't really taking over. But what happened then is they must have programmed a element of okay, if you sense this, then go ahead and bring them straight to the human versus someone just waiting because of some logistical thing that's not really important. But I realized that after about a year that went away, probably because maybe people figured out the trick. Um so anyway, but yeah, that but that was interesting because I saw how that those two things came together. Yeah.

Melanie 27:48

And yeah, I mean, sometimes the you know you're talking to an automated system, you know you're talking to a bot, and it's like, you know, we understand your concerns. No, you don't understand that. Maybe that makes it worse instead of better.

Jason 28:03

Right, right.

Melanie 28:05

Um automation doesn't always work when there is nuances and judgment that needs to happen. So uh diagnosing complex problems. Uh again, we're probably talking a little on the medical end of things, but you know, and so that is true. There's a lot of times where the medical industry uses automation where maybe it shouldn't.

Jason 28:27

Yeah.

Melanie 28:28

Um, yes, and automation can be very helpful when you're kind of turning about patients and that kind of thing. But there are again certain things that are emotional that don't need um, they they need that humor interaction, that human component, not the uh automation. Um and you know, when when you're trying to set forth a business strategy and you need a meeting and that kind of thing, you know, uh a lot of times I I you know see a lot of things where people are working in bigger industries where, well, that meeting could have been an email.

Jason 29:05

Yeah, right.

Melanie 29:06

Yes, I get that, but sometimes if you do a meeting that could have been an email, you really don't get that interaction. So you're losing something there.

Jason 29:16

Maybe what they're saying is it could have been email because there wasn't much opportunity for interaction.

Melanie 29:23

The meaning was canned.

Jason 29:24

The meaning was canned, not again.

Melanie 29:26

We risk is sometimes in automation we risk automating ourselves.

Jason 29:31

Yep, exactly. Yep.

Melanie 29:33

And and the human being too automated.

Jason 29:36

The human needs to be more human. Right. Because the human was leading the meeting.

Melanie 29:40

Leads leads a meeting to be easier as an email.

Jason 29:43

Right, exactly.

Melanie 29:44

But if you're actually allowing the interaction, then you know, then maybe you're allowing other people to speak. Sure. Maybe you're also allowing a an interaction of sorts, and then that meeting is better as a meeting as opposed to an email.

Jason 30:00

I get that, that makes sense.

Melanie 30:02

Um remember your whole interpretation thing. Um I I've always liked a phone call over a text.

Jason 30:12

Oh yeah.

Melanie 30:12

And a it you know, face-to-face interaction over a phone call.

Jason 30:16

Yeah, tone helps.

Melanie 30:17

Right. You had a whole thing at some point where you were um talking about the amount of interpretation.

Jason 30:25

I can't remember exactly, but I remember studying this. Um I did something in college where um the degree of correct interpretation based on the modes of communication. And it was like you know, like text could be like 10 to 15 percent of the entire, you know, intended meaning. Right. Now it doesn't mean that you don't understand. I mean, many times you text, hey, look, can you pick up grapes? Sure. Red, white, red. Okay, I got it. Message clear. But you know, there's always undertones, there are things that are missed. Now, voice is better, and that's probably 25%. Where you can hear you've made a phone call, but you hear the tent. And you can hear hesitation, you can understand this, you can whatever. But you know, face-to-face, of course, is so much more because you got expression, you got you know, disposition, you got all these other modalities that come forward that help you to get a fuller sense of your again intended meaning. Right.

Melanie 31:28

Now your interpretation is higher, interpretation is higher.

Jason 31:33

Right. And and you know, you can also and all that in that situation versus text, ver you know, which is probably why text and things like that feel so distant. You know, because you're looking for things, perhaps, that you're not going to get.

Melanie 31:51

Right. Which is goes right into uh relationship-based professions.

Jason 31:56

Sure, yeah.

Melanie 31:57

Um would have a hard time being automated.

Jason 32:01

Yeah.

Melanie 32:02

Um, because when you have a relationship and you're actually building that relationship, then the interactivity makes automation um seem again canned and uh interpretation goes too far down.

Jason 32:17

Right.

Melanie 32:17

It's interesting that the number one relationship-based uh profession that needs an actual relationship is web design and IT support.

Jason 32:28

Are you kidding? No.

Melanie 32:30

Well, it it makes so much sense because you are s it it you know, with uh working with the school system.

Jason 32:37

Oh yeah.

Melanie 32:38

When you walked into the room and you need to work on the computer, yeah, the first thing you actually need to do is calm the the poor teacher. It's like look, everything's going to find when it comes to you know, I have just dealt with this computer and now I want to throw it out the window.

Jason 32:57

Do you think I'm stupid? No.

Melanie 32:59

Which computers do computer things, and you know, you know, that translates really well into Winternet Web, where you, you know, can can walk into me being frustrated with a computer and all I want to do is destroy it. I've got a hammer and you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, baby. Where you know, it it's important to have that human interaction when your IT is your problem. You know, when your tech is the thing that's that's driving you bananas, and that's the thing where the human is actually the most important, which makes so much sense that you know, in in your web design and your IT support, that makes the most sense if having of having that in human interaction and that relationship-based um concept, because that's where you're not in an actual relationship because it's all computing.

Jason 33:57

Right, exactly.

Melanie 33:57

So you need that.

Jason 33:58

Yeah, it does make sense because again, like you're saying, the connection between you and say the outside world is digital. Therefore, you need the human element to make that connection um uh can't think of the word, but like I mean more authentic, I guess. Um, but yeah.

Melanie 34:16

Yeah, so you know, and then that makes sense with, you know, again, the bigger automated systems, you know, your your Amazons and your Walmarts and your you know, your big time guys, sure, you know, when it comes to Ice IT support, you actually do need a person that has a troubleshooting concept that is able to sit there and go, okay, let's let's actually sit there and have a conversation.

Jason 34:45

Yeah.

Melanie 34:45

And I can help.

Jason 34:47

Yep.

Melanie 34:48

And oh my gosh, how amazing is it to hear I can help.

Jason 34:53

Exactly. Oh, I know. It heard that today.

Melanie 34:57

Yes. Um the conclusion of our our Amazon trauma um with when it comes to automation systems and having no one to talk to was finally talking to just one of the drivers.

Jason 35:13

One of the drivers that yeah.

Melanie 35:15

And said, you know what, let's figure this out.

Jason 35:17

Because I sent her a text early in the morning and she's gonna be dropping off the packages, and I just said, Look, here's what we dealt with. Um you know, can I talk, you know, can I talk to you? Blah, blah, blah. And she's like, Yep, we'll figure it out together. And just that quick little tip.

Melanie 35:30

Let's figure it out together. Let's figure it out together. I can't tell you how important that sounds.

Jason 35:34

Very few words. And it didn't give me an answer, but it gave me a connection.

Melanie 35:40

Yes.

Jason 35:40

It told me, I'm not alone. Um, and you know, we're in this together with somebody. And you know, that sometimes that's all you need to hear. It's like, look, we'll figure it out. It's good. You're all right.

Melanie 35:53

So anybody in big, big, big business, please listen. Um teacher people I can help, and and let's figure this out together is probably the best two things you could possibly say to anybody that's frustrated.

Jason 36:06

But don't have your chatbot say it.

Melanie 36:08

Please don't have your chatbot say it. Actually say it as a human.

Jason 36:10

Because it's like, I understand your concern. No, you don't.

Melanie 36:13

No.

Jason 36:13

I know.

Melanie 36:14

You are not a human and you do not understand my concern.

Jason 36:18

Oh man.

Melanie 36:20

Uh financial advisors make it very difficult.

Jason 36:22

No, yeah, you need to make you need the comfort of that human saying, look.

Melanie 36:27

I'm not giving my money into something that's just a computing system. That I need a human, I need to talk to somebody, I need that interrupt.

Jason 36:36

I mean, you can't even trust a vending machine. It's gonna take you a dollar.

Melanie 36:38

I know. What if it does, right? It's like I just every single time I put money in a vending machine vending machine, it's like, well, there it goes. There it goes. I'm either gonna get something or not. Uh real estate agents, I totally agree with this one.

Jason 36:55

Um it's trust of property, transactions, things like that.

Melanie 36:59

There is a huge trust element when it comes to real estate. And so uh thank you guys. Uh we have a lot of real estate agents and some best, best friends that are real estate agents.

Jason 37:10

Um a lot of good ones.

Melanie 37:11

And so, you know, we do we understand that need that we're you've got to have to, you know, have that relationship establish something very quickly.

Jason 37:24

Yes.

Melanie 37:25

Um, and so you know, that makes sense that you need to kind of go ahead and make a relationship with your your um social media, with your online, um, your web presence, things like that. They go ahead and they put a lot into please connect with me.

Jason 37:42

Yes, exactly.

Melanie 37:43

And um doing it right because that you're already telling those people, you know, we're gonna start a relationship and we will find you a home.

Jason 37:53

And and we've talked to many that have done websites and we've kind of said you gotta approach this differently. Yes, you may work for, you know, an X and Y real estate company, and two years from now you might work for this one over here. So it yes, you might feel like, okay, I need to systematically show what I do. And it's like, no, actually, you're the connection between, you know, the buyer-seller, whomever. You're the hero.

Melanie 38:21

It's not showing what you do, it's not true.

Jason 38:22

It's not showing what you do, it's who you are and what you can do. Because I mean, um yes, there are people that probably understand it better because they've been in it more years, let's say, but when it comes down to it, you want that person by your side. 11 30 at night, you want to be able to s feel like I can send them a text because I just thought about this, and you know, um the communication needs to flow back and forth, and you need to feel comfortable about that process, whether you're buying a home and trying to, you know, get that home or selling yours.

Melanie 38:56

Right.

Jason 38:57

And these are big transactions. I mean these are homes. I mean, there's nothing bigger than like a mortgage when it comes to a family's.

Melanie 39:05

We had been married um what did we we'd been married at least a year.

Jason 39:10

Oh, I was wondering how many, okay, no.

Melanie 39:12

And maybe a year and a half. And before we and we we sat down and we um filled out the paperwork to buy a house.

Jason 39:19

Oh, yeah, that was thick.

Melanie 39:21

And my comment at the time was this is more of a commitment than the marriage.

Jason 39:27

Right.

Melanie 39:28

I mean, well, the marriage was fairly easy to get out of. The the commitment of the two of us buying a house together was a whole lot harder to get out of.

Jason 39:37

There's your problem. Yeah.

Melanie 39:38

Obviously, I was quite committed. But you know, as far as it I thought it was funny that there's like one little tiny, you know, sign the Don is time to get married.

Jason 39:51

But you're selling your life away to get by It's like you know, you leave the hospital with your baby, you you know, try you know, especially first time parents. And you're fumbling around trying to strap them in a car seat and making sure they're okay, they're secure, and you drive five miles an hour all the way home. And it's just almost like they just let us leave. And it's like, um, you know.

Melanie 40:11

It's so much less committed.

Jason 40:13

I know it's like, but but I just had a baby.

Melanie 40:16

This is like the most important thing.

Jason 40:24

There's a lot going on there. Yeah.

Melanie 40:25

It's like, well, thank you. So yeah, even having a baby, it was a little bit less um paperwork and and you know, um strenuous.

Jason 40:37

Right.

Melanie 40:38

So, you know, and in certain things, you know, counselors, teachers, pastors, there are so many relationships where um these have to be relationships.

Jason 40:50

Definitely.

Melanie 40:51

Um you know, pastors know this, thank God. Um most pastors absolutely know that that human interaction is is key.

Jason 41:00

Yeah.

Melanie 41:01

Counselors, sometimes we have been kind of pulling into counseling as far as um social media counseling and stuff like that. Yeah, that's I mean I think it starts to get a little borderline when it comes to automated counseling.

Jason 41:16

I mean, people may have the videos, and you may get something from that, but uh you're of course that's a one-directional. You're just taking in, you know, whatever they're saying, their advice, or you know, you you feel like you're building a relationship because it's like, oh, I've been watching this guy's videos.

Melanie 41:31

Right. But I do have a couple of pastors I watch.

Jason 41:34

Do they know you I watch? Yeah, have they listened to your story?

Melanie 41:37

Exactly.

Jason 41:38

And until they give you feedback on your story, there's no greater connection than that. Again, human element is important. Um and I know we have AI on our show. Intentionally didn't have our AI person on the show today. I used personal loosely, but you know, it's kind of like again, the the human is not gonna go away. We hear so much about all the jobs gonna be taken. Yes, there's gonna be an adjustment in how things go, but when it comes down to it, I mean the human is gonna be i vitally more important now than ever. And I think businesses are going to realize that. I I guarantee you, and I don't know if it's Amazon or whoever, the first big business to start promoting the human connection with problems and situations or whatever logistically is going to take off like a rocket.

Melanie 42:39

Right. When they first when they finally understand that yes, automated is wonderful.

Jason 42:46

But that balance is necessary.

Melanie 42:49

And they actually just say it out loud.

Jason 42:50

Yeah.

Melanie 42:51

If they just say it in the ads, say it in the um in the way that they interact with people, they just say it out loud and they give that message that you're still important.

Jason 43:01

You're important and we need you. And yeah, and we need you as the customer.

Melanie 43:04

Yeah, and we as the human will be with you as the customer. Yeah. And and yes, we love our automation, but we're gonna help you through it.

Jason 43:13

Yep. I think, yeah, exactly. Same message. I'll help you, you know, uh, we'll figure it out together.

Melanie 43:18

We'll figure it out together.

Jason 43:19

And I think that will stick with us.

Melanie 43:22

That is gonna be the thing that like leapfrogs us into uh all generations being able to pleasantly automate without over-automating to the point that we are are feeling like we just want to throw our hands in the air. Sure.

Jason 43:38

Yeah.

Melanie 43:38

I I agree with that 100%.

Jason 43:42

So yeah. Well, that was a really that went into a lot of good things there. So all right. Well, thanks for your support around the world, really. Um hello to our recent listeners in Ghana, Costa Rica, Tunisia. Um, it's been surprising finding um these different countries and where y'all have uh been listening from. But if anything we said today resonated with you, be sure to follow or review our podcast on your favorite platform. It really helps get to reach out. Thank you all for your support and everything. But um I'm plugging for now.

Melanie 44:22

But always stay connected.