Humans on Purpose: Redefining Intelligence with AI

AI is already reshaping who gets hired, what gets valued, and what work even means. In this episode of Wired Together, Jason and Melanie explore a simple but uncomfortable question. If AI is brilliant at the things school measures most, like language patterns, testable math, memorization, and “right answers,” then what should we be emphasizing to prepare students for the real landscape of their careers?

Using Howard Gardner’s theory of multiple intelligences as a springboard, we talk about what AI does well (linguistic and logical problem solving) and where humans remain irreplaceable: empathy, moral reasoning, creativity, discernment, intuition, courage, and the lived human experience. We unpack why “if it’s quantifiable, is it replaceable?” might be the wake-up call education and workplace training need right now.

This is not an anti-AI episode. We call it what it is: a tool, “Google on steroids.” The real issue is whether we use it to replace learning or enhance learning. If the workplace is changing in months, not decades, then our priorities, our classrooms, and our definition of intelligence may need a paradigm shift too.

🎧 Wired Together is produced by WinternetWeb Technologies, a family-run web design and tech studio based in Bracey, Virginia.
💻 Visit us at winternetweb.com 

Transcript

Melanie 0:07

Welcome again to another episode of Wire Together with your host Melanie Winter and Jason Winter. And so uh today again another uh bit of an AI topic. And so kind of is AI helping us redefine the roles of human intelligence. And so um I thought this was very interesting as a topic. Uh I've been mulling over this for a while. Um it's it's almost like uh dark matter versus matter. Dark matter, we actually don't know how it exists, and and you know, you can't see it, but because matter exists, dark matter exists. It's kind of like the white space. Right. Right. So it if if you have AI computing and AI intelligence or um then that makes a redefinition of what it means to be intelligent, say as a human.

Jason 1:12

Right.

Melanie 1:13

Um so you know, we thought we'd explore, have some fun with it.

Jason 1:16

Yeah, and it kind of gets into because we have this tool, does it redefine you know that and the AI tool, of course, is not flawless, but because it can do neither is the human intelligence. Right, exactly. So yeah, so there's that, but um, it's like does it redefine what we should be focusing on and prioritizing, I guess maybe and of course this leads into the education system and AI it's growing overnight. Do we need a paradigm shift in how we educate?

Melanie 1:56

Educate and and move forward in business and in economy.

Jason 2:00

Yes. Because the landscape of it is changing businesses have changed too in their requirements.

Melanie 2:06

In just really very short, short time.

Jason 2:09

I mean, honestly, in like two years.

Melanie 2:11

Right.

Jason 2:12

Yeah.

Melanie 2:13

Um, so one of the things we um I kind of did some research on some ideas about human intelligence to begin with. So um in 1983, uh Howard Gardner uh came up with a theory of multiple intelligences, and so it's um a book he wrote just kind of redefining intelligence, and then is intelligence stagnant or is it something that's very multifaceted?

Jason 2:40

Right, because I mean before that you had your IQ test.

Melanie 2:43

Right, right. And IQ is not necessarily intelligence, IQ is uh capacity, it's like the capability of of receiving information, um, or pattern recognition and that kind of thing. There's a lot of pattern recognition in there, yeah. Um but this is kind of is that but even still that's one format sole understanding of intelligence, and so I mean, I know I'll just tell a little tiny anecdote of um a way that I to typically talk about I I love talking to people, I love different types of people, different facets of life, like learning about different people and listening. And um, one of the things I say is I've closed a bar with a uh a multimillionaire. I mean, the stories this man could tell, uh several houses, traveled the world, right? Um, very super intelligent and extremely fun to talk to. I've also closed a bar with someone who was pretty much at that bar, that particular bar every day.

Jason 3:56

Right.

Melanie 3:56

And uh that's where their take home pay went. And also super intelligent, uh fascinating conversation.

Jason 4:07

Right.

Melanie 4:07

And so at and like completely different worlds. Yeah. Yeah, obviously he had the one house, you know, like most of us. Right, sure, sure.

Jason 4:16

You know, it or you know But if you were to size them up based on their resume.

Melanie 4:21

Right, you'd think one was was far superior than the other, where both were fascinating.

Jason 4:26

Whereas those two people you're talking about could have sat next to one another and equally had a that would have been the most fascinating, actually.

Melanie 4:34

Exactly. And so felt like there was so much to be had by both.

Jason 4:39

Yeah.

Melanie 4:40

And there was so much in uh both ways of of thinking, both storytelling, intelligence, and that sort of thing, that um both stories are in I'm thinking of two very specific people and uh very close to my heart, both of them, you know, I will always remember those conversations.

Jason 4:59

Right. Yeah, no, I mean I think in the human experience and like the real connections with people and stories like that, um, you just can't measure what I feel like we're trying to train everyone into. It just doesn't it doesn't translate, you know.

Melanie 5:20

Well, and then again gets into definition. What is the definition of intelligence? It's like, well, that's so such a multifaceted concept. Exactly. It's my loving the the uh the book that he wrote and and the fact that it was at least given a little bit more substance than just one way of thinking of intelligence. So um Aaron Gardner comes up with uh several different types, and so um, and most people already know this, but you know, we'll just do a recap.

Jason 5:48

Right.

Melanie 5:49

Um obviously there's linguistics, so you know, words, writing, um, communication in general. You know, you're my heart. We're both wordsmiths and we both love linguistics, exactly um, logical, mathematical, so math and reasoning. Um definitely your bag, definitely not mine.

Jason 6:11

Uh ironic and saying, right.

Melanie 6:15

I enjoy the idea of reasoning skills in in a mathematical way because it's almost like the musical, you know. I'm I'm so glad other people do it.

Jason 6:24

Right.

Melanie 6:26

It's not the way my brain rolls. Uh spatial, we have that visual thinker, that visual awareness, uh you know, usually a pattern recognition style person.

Jason 6:38

Right.

Melanie 6:39

Um, and this is multifaceted, so all people are some level of music.

Jason 6:44

Yes, exactly.

Melanie 6:45

Um musical, that is where I am zero level.

Jason 6:48

Okay.

Melanie 6:49

Um I enjoy music and and I absolutely love it and so jealous of anybody who's good at it.

Jason 6:56

Um, this doesn't say you have to play music. I mean, in an appreciation of music, it did I don't think with music.

Melanie 7:04

No. Okay, well, so that is it's definitely not if if you had to have a a bar uh or maybe a pie graph.

Jason 7:12

Right, you would say this would be one of your lower ones.

Melanie 7:14

This would probably be the lowest one. I'm so bad at like the musical understanding.

Jason 7:20

Well, hold on, you said you like music though, so like and progressive music. So so think of it this way: a musical intelligence would also bring in your ability to feel the progression of a project and think of rhythm, think of all that. So that is kind of musical.

Melanie 7:39

I'm just not very rhythm and I don't have good rhythm. You don't need to create it, but it's just it's in how you think and how you uh so bodily or what we call kinesthetic, um, definitely one of the the major ways of uh we understand learning. Um I I feel like everybody's kinesthetic in some way. Yeah, a lot of people. Muscle memory is gonna always exist, and so most people have the ability to be kinesthetic.

Jason 8:04

Thinker doers.

Melanie 8:05

Um the that physical, uh-huh. You mean uh mover thinkers.

Jason 8:11

Mover thinkers, that's right.

Melanie 8:12

I I called the the children mover thinkers, uh, especially when they were younger. Right. You know, have you ever seen a child tell a story and they're they're swaying, they're shifting, they're bouncing, they're hip-hopping, I mean they're doing everything because the story is actually kind of sometimes hard to get out, and so they have to move to do it.

Jason 8:31

Well, the movement sometimes is attached to their memory of how the different pieces come to play. Right. So you have to do the movement.

Melanie 8:37

Most kids are moving thinkers, some are just trained a little quicker than others to stop. Sit down. But usually kids are moving thinkers.

Jason 8:46

Yep.

Melanie 8:46

Um, but kinesthetics is anything, so you know, we learn muscle memory.

Jason 8:51

Oh, sure. Yep.

Melanie 8:52

Um, so anything physical.

Jason 8:54

Yep.

Melanie 8:54

And then we have interpersonal, um, which is your people skills. Um, I again love people that are good at people skills, and so jealous of that. Um, you know, I'm shy. And so it typically, you know, I one-on-one have pretty good pe people skills. Um, big groups, things like that, I'm I'm probably gonna be the one that sucks at it. So uh intrapersonal, which is like more of that self-awareness, how does this apply? That kind of thing.

Jason 9:25

Yeah, yeah, the intrapersonal that um and it's funny because you have internet, which of course is like a network that's connected to others, so in the same way as people, and that's how we get the same terminology. And an intranet being within, say, like one space, a building, what have you, and it's that connectivity. So your self-awareness it doesn't go beyond your firewall, I guess, and uh you know, um, for that person, but yeah.

Melanie 9:51

Right.

Jason 9:52

Yeah.

Melanie 9:53

And then you have the naturalist, so um the nature and the patterns of nature. So um that's kind of his building blocks of just kind of getting a little bit more of a fuller concept of of the multiple intelligence.

Jason 10:12

Yeah. And if I remember correctly, I think the naturalist was added later. I mean, I'm not an expert on um, you know, this this theory and all, but I think I do remember that he started off and added nature kind of like in a another publication, but I remember when I taught seventh grade um giving this to my students within the first week or two of school. And you know, like a test on what you're doing. Exactly, yeah. Most based on on this guy's and um, you know, then it would it would tally up. If it was a much longer test, you could probably really see which was like the hero of this, but again, like you said, there's an overlapping right, right.

Melanie 11:01

Nobody's gonna be one, right? And you're gonna be your learning styles are gonna come into play for several different ways.

Jason 11:08

Exactly. And from each one, you know, I kind of had uh resources and like how you would study best if this were your method, or I guess your connection with um with learning, um, and what may be helpful. And you know, it created some good conversations, and you know, you know, some students look at oh, it's kind of neat, and some will be like, wow, I this kind of makes sense, and you know, they they get excited about it.

Melanie 11:35

So um in seventh grade, that's gonna be, you know, it's a good time.

Jason 11:40

It's a pivotal year.

Melanie 11:40

I mean thinking a lot about you and what you learn and you know um like who you are, and it's actually you're redefining self.

Jason 11:50

And it's when you start getting away from you know, a lot of a lot of the core reading and writing, and you start getting into other content. Um and I don't know we'll talk about that, but yeah, your interests are starting to build a little bit. So in order and also some of yes, your interests build, but you're also having certain content thrown at you that maybe I don't really know how to to identify with that subject and connect with it. Well, if you know your learning style, then you can learn how to actually study. Because as things get toward the you know, high school, upper school, what have you, uh studying becomes very important because you need to figure out how do I get this content in my head? How do how do I then be able to get it back out?

Melanie 12:38

Right.

Jason 12:39

So um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I do like this, and I know we both took a test on it.

Melanie 12:45

We did, we we took our own test. It was um more of a free test.

Jason 12:48

It was like one of those Oh, you know, so it's completely accurate. Um it was free, but um I like how this goes beyond because years before um me using this, the whole conversation was are you a visual learner, are you an auditory learner, or kinesthetic? Right. But that kind of boxes you in.

Melanie 13:07

Both of these are at play, yes, but um it's a bit broader in giving you a little more space here. Yep. Um, so kind of I guess we weren't surprised about either of us when we took the test. Um in fact, Jason guessed mine, not surprised either. Um and I guess I kind of guessed yours. Um you could have gone a couple different ways, but uh it made sense. So you ended up being logical, mathematical.

Jason 13:40

Yep.

Melanie 13:40

Um, so that is the kind of the direction that you tend to go the most is that that mathematical, you know, quantifiable thing.

Jason 13:49

Quantifying something, determining um measuring things based on okay, well, this seems to be this versus this, and you know. But I mean, again, this is an overlapping concept in that you would have multiple strengths, as irony has it. I have two degrees in English, too.

Melanie 14:11

And I use take English in such a mathematical way, right? As well as music, right, and and several things that you kind of has a little more of a a math feel to it, right?

Jason 14:24

But then there's that intuition component too, which I'm not sure where that would fall under, but that's just that's just when you're tapping into something. But yes, logical mathematical is definitely how I guess I I structure my time and help to make a lot of decisions off of.

Melanie 14:43

So you and then I ended up being the intrapersonal.

Jason 14:51

Yep.

Melanie 14:52

Um so I guess I do kind of base a lot of things on self-awareness. Uh, how does this apply to my life and you know um what is the strength and weakness here? What is you know, that kind of thing. So I am that didn't make sense.

Jason 15:14

Well, which does fall that is more too akin to the like philosophers and all that kind of stuff.

Melanie 15:20

Right. Oh, I love philosophy.

Jason 15:23

But you know, it's it's almost like, well, the reason for your question matters more than the question itself, type, you know, digging deep into the questions are actually so much more important. Sure, sure. So um but yeah, so I mean, yeah, I think that that was a good a springboard into understanding that yes, as far as um we didn't take a cool one where it was again that multifaceted, so we just took the the one that gives you like one answer, right? But the human is much more broad than AI, and I know AI is definitely the buzzword right now, and it's like AI is taking over the world, right?

Melanie 16:06

We're talking about a different set of intelligence, and so what this type of intelligence um strongest is probably gonna end up being your your logical or your linguistic.

Jason 16:21

Right, you're saying like AI is that is its bag.

Melanie 16:23

That is its bag. It it um AI is great at writing, great at um kind of using even your your style, your way of writing, your dialect, your um if you train it.

Jason 16:37

Right, if you train it.

Melanie 16:38

And so um it's definitely a wordsmith because it can pull from from a huge bank.

Jason 16:44

Sure.

Melanie 16:44

Um and then the logic and mathematics, it's um it obviously, you know, I mean Google can do math, but um it it goes a bit further into the reasoning behind it and things like that. You know, a lot of uh kids right now are using math, you know, going through AI and using the tools to break down a math problem and and kind of you know reteach themselves something. Right. Because it is it does kind of break it down a little bit differently.

Jason 17:14

It can, it can explain things if there's a problem that you have around your homework that was you know gone over in class, but maybe you didn't quite get it, you were able to uh go back and forth with AI within say, okay, I'm thinking this or whatever, and how should I be doing this? And yeah, it certainly is a good tool for that. But again, that's in the wheelhouse of something logical with a you know, either a yes or no or a defined answer. So um, but I mean AI isn't good at everything.

Melanie 17:53

It's not, and and so it is gonna um the weakness of AI is is of course the strength of human.

Jason 18:02

Right.

Melanie 18:03

And and that's I think what we the the whole discussion right now is is we we need to define the strength of human by the weakness of AI, and because AI exists, and so it just gives that that new bit of fodder for a redefinition. And so the weakness of the the AI and the the strength of human is we are emotional. Yeah, we are we are uh we we have an understanding of morality, um, and then that like you were talking about intuition and um that ability to be creative and take that intuition and and use it to um make decisions and right, you know, uh we're we're quicker decision makers, even though you can AI can spit something out very fast. Sure. It's not spitting out something like a a moral decision. True. Where you're trying to really define something, it's it can only spit out information.

Jason 19:00

And you know, how often do we talk about, you know, use your gut feeling?

Melanie 19:05

Mm-hmm.

Jason 19:06

Well, AI can only take data.

Melanie 19:09

It doesn't have a gut feeling.

Jason 19:10

Run numbers, right? Exactly. Run numbers and figure out which percentage is better and go from there. And there's yours here's my recommendation. Based on all of this, I would choose this path. But a gut feeling is more bestial.

Melanie 19:25

It's more, you know, it's it's it's in fact you could say in in this whole um multiple intelligences, if you were gonna put AI within this, because you know, we gave ourselves results, we'll give AI some results.

Jason 19:38

Yeah, true.

Melanie 19:39

They again logical and linguistics, and probably the worst that it would be is is kinesthetic because it doesn't have a body. It can't, it cannot have uh muscle memory or that kind of thing.

Jason 19:53

Right, exactly.

Melanie 19:54

So part of what makes us human is is our physical attribute. You know, we can get something done in a in a physical way. Um where that is, I mean and that there is an intelligence to that, you know. Um, I mean, my god, it to watch like a a ballerina or a gymnast or I mean right now with the Olympics happening, I mean the beauty of performance. Oh, this the figure skating and what they can do that is like defying reality.

Jason 20:25

Right.

Melanie 20:26

That is in in and of itself, you know, that that muscle intelligence, and we have that physicality of doing that. I mean, we should you know, we we do reward that.

Jason 20:36

Sure. And um yeah, we can't, you know, disregard that. I mean it it's I mean we were joking earlier about like the the the natural um yeah, the naturalistic intelligence and how you may have like an aura in connection with nature that and you gain energy from that, so to speak, and also because your connection and understanding of that is how you think about other things, but AI, other than just understanding what nature is, I mean we were joking, it's like it needs to go out and just touch grass, right? It can't do that, it cannot touch grass, so it doesn't have the experience, true.

Melanie 21:13

The human experience is experience itself, and so um we are capable of living in the world and and being of the world and being um a part of things, sure, and and using our our bodies as as part of our our our intelligence, yes um and so it creates a broader point of view of um the human intelligence versus just what AI is capable of doing. And so that kind of g leans ourselves into this question of if school systems mainly measure with say math and reading, then are we gonna end up missing some things? When it comes to if AI is your linguistic and your logical mathematical thinker, it performs well. And AI is starting to take over into industry with that kind of way of thinking, then are we making some of the educational practices a bit obsolete? Right.

Jason 22:20

Are we training?

Melanie 22:21

AI it we would like for education to be quantifiable, which is why we do tests, standards of learning, things like that.

Jason 22:29

We're pressured to know where they are and we need that quantifiable concept.

Melanie 22:34

And the problem is if it's quantifiable, isn't it also replaceable?

Jason 22:40

Oh yeah, that's true.

Melanie 22:42

So now all of a sudden, if computing can replace what's quantifiable, then we need to redefine intelligence in a way that's less quantifiable. That computing cannot replace what's going on.

Jason 22:54

We need to get back to the quality of being, not yeah.

Melanie 22:58

So here's the big heady piece of this whole thing is you know, that puts us in a bit of a a problem.

Jason 23:16

Well, I mean, I remember, I mean, I was um part of this movement when I was in the school system when the um big push for coding came in, which you know, uh no knowledge is lost. Understanding um coding, and I'm talking about, you know, I'm not in the medical field, I'm talking about you know, computer programming. Right. It um it is helpful for the development of analytical thinking and all of that. Very much. Yeah. Um the problem is I think it was swaying a lot of people, and in that time frame, I you know, have seen that generation go into computer programming, and but now with this supercomputer AI being turned on, its ability to write code and do all that, um, you don't need to be a coding grunt, it's got you. You know, so it stomped all over it. It did. So we set up a generation and told them go here because it's needed. And maybe we knew, maybe we didn't. I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to get into a conspiracy theory here, but um I I I think the direction we were trying to push students, you know, unfortunately, now AI is doing a very good job at that. Um, so as a path, maybe it should have been more broad, right and not pushed.

Melanie 24:44

Are we not seeing this in the maybe the bigger picture when it needs to be seen? More holistic. Right. So if again, if it's all about test scores or you know, something that is um one level of intelligence, then we're not really seeing the the the greater picture of um what makes us irreplaceable.

Jason 25:13

Exactly. And that gets back to what you were talking about earlier, the human connection and like what can we offer, you know, the emotional and um right.

Melanie 25:25

I mean, is intelligence always defined by who's best at algebra or if if a child is struggling with algebra, yet has that capability of being the calm in a storm or a conflict, that capability of reading the room. Um that's right, yeah, you know, that that why is this scene as several you know stages down on intelligence when maybe that kind of uh resourcefulness in the human world? Yeah, that character is actually that that character development, but you can't measure character, but you can't measure it, and so again, here's where we become it set in the stalemate where well if it's not measurable, then we don't know where kids are.

Jason 26:11

Exactly. And if you can't if you can't grade it and measure it, how then do you create the formula to reteach it to someone else? And there's the fallacy. Everyone has unique abilities. You can't just say, okay, here's the trick. Let me give this to you. Right. You go, no, well, that's really not my strength. I'm over here. I mean, you you know, someone that um is not into sports and just doesn't have a sport bone in their body, let's say, you can teach them all day long the rules of football, how to pass, how to do all that. If it's not their thing, then they're never really going to be able to achieve it to a degree.

Melanie 26:50

Right. So should we always quantify everybody on based on whether or not they can play football?

Jason 26:56

Right.

Melanie 26:56

Well, no, we we know better than we know, yeah, exactly. So, you know, we don't quantify people on whether or not they have um the the skills for basketball.

Jason 27:06

Right.

Melanie 27:07

My family would not go well with that, by the way. We are all very, very, very short people. Right. Um not that you need height just to do well with basketball. It does help. None of us are very good at it, so we're just gonna let that one. You know, we we cannot be quantified that way because that wouldn't make any sense. You know, we're all different sizes and and we're all have different physical capabilities.

Jason 27:31

Sure.

Melanie 27:32

So then does it make sense to quantify everything in education in these two aspects that maybe don't always put the whole picture in there?

Jason 27:46

Exactly.

Melanie 27:46

You know, you have creativity, uh, resilience, yeah, resourcefulness.

Jason 27:52

Resourcefulness is a big one.

Melanie 27:54

Uh moral reasoning.

Jason 27:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah, like your example of reading a room or like conflict resolution, being able to feel where people are coming from and being able to say the right thing to de-escalate. Yes. There is no book. I mean, yes, you could read books on that, I get that. But there are people that just naturally, and not just naturally because boop, they woke up one day and had it, but they have a natural propensity to picking up on that in their daily environment, seeing an argument between people and you know, the grocery store, and they gather data on that and go, I would have done this, I would have done that. You know, some people go, I don't know, they were fighting. That's all they thought about it. This person took it in and parsed it and developed a uh added it to their knowledge base.

Melanie 28:41

Right.

Jason 28:42

Because they know in a future situation, they're gonna be better at that.

Melanie 28:47

So when you think about people that are brave.

Jason 28:50

Oh yeah. You know, you've got gosh, I wouldn't have done it. How did you execute that decision?

Melanie 28:57

The the human brain, the human response is it's sometimes very automatic.

Jason 29:01

Yeah.

Melanie 29:01

Um, we do go into automatic survival mode.

Jason 29:04

Well, we do, yeah.

Melanie 29:05

But there are people who run into fires versus run away from fires.

Jason 29:11

Right.

Melanie 29:11

And those that that level of brave is intelligence. That is its own definition of something that uh is more than uh something quantifiable.

Jason 29:27

Yes.

Melanie 29:28

But the most necessary for for centuries we've had fires that um will threaten civilization.

Jason 29:37

Yep.

Melanie 29:38

And so for centuries we've had people that are brave enough to fight that. And brave enough to go into the the destruction, the danger. Into danger versus away from it.

Jason 29:51

Sure.

Melanie 29:51

Um which is again not really something that you can just force.

Jason 29:57

No.

Melanie 29:58

But it's an intellect and a necessity in civilization. And I mean And are those people great at, you know, standards of learning?

Jason 30:10

Sure.

Melanie 30:11

Well You know, and that's the thing, is w do we quantify things incorrectly when some of the best people are not even anywhere near s the just two pieces of intelligence is when they've got s such a multifaceted understanding.

Jason 30:35

You know be your leaders in, you know, math.

Melanie 30:40

It might not be the leader in fourth grade, but they're gonna be the leader in in, you know by their thirties because they've done something that is just beyond brave. You know.

Jason 30:53

You can get a congressional medal of honor and probably struggle through school.

Melanie 31:00

True.

Jason 31:01

You know?

Melanie 31:02

It did nobody knows exactly. I mean all recipients and how they did, but you know, yes, absolutely. Because nobody asked him what he got in his, you know, final exam in in third grade. Because why would you ask that?

Jason 31:18

Yeah, so why would you care?

Melanie 31:21

He just saved people.

Jason 31:22

What's your SAT score?

Melanie 31:23

Right, what's your SAT score? Nobody could.

Jason 31:25

Did you get a GRE or did you, you know, graduate high school? Did you I mean, you know, it it it's I realize we try to set a goal for people, but again, it's are we overwhelming that goal with something that is if it again, if it's quantifiable, right, are are then it's replaceable. Are we stifling other abilities in the development of those abilities because we're so obsessed over certain ones that we are told are required to be important?

Melanie 32:00

Mm-hmm. Um so AI answered um some questions for me. And um, one of these is in a world increasingly supported by AI systems that excel at pattern recognition and language generation, the uniquely human capacities such as empathy, ethical judgment, adaptability, and imagination may become more valuable and not less. So I thought that was really cool. AI really um kind of understands its own fallacies, and maybe that's that's one of its uh best attributes at the moment is realizing that um knowing what knowing what it don't know. Right, knowing what it doesn't know. Um I believe that was oh shoot, was that Socrates? Oh shoot, oh it was one of them, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, one of them said um the the best wisdom is in what in knowing what you don't know. In knowing what you don't know, it's it's uh that's a paraphrase, yeah, definitely, because I was not prepared for that.

Jason 33:14

But um I think two or three kind of had their own versions of it as it came across the generations, but yeah.

Melanie 33:20

But that is the definition of wisdom. It realizing yeah, I can't possibly know everything, right? And so that's good because then I can learn.

Jason 33:29

Right.

Melanie 33:30

Um, you know, so true, yeah.

Jason 33:33

I mean, and I think it's important you brought that up because you know there are a lot of people that think AI is taking over the world and also that AI can do all things, and I think that's the fallacy, yes, it is able to quickly, like a you know, um yeah, a the supercomputer it is put out things and make you know very I'm gonna say educated um connections, um create content, but it in itself can't do without human input, at least right now, and also it can't replace a lot of the things that I think we're selling ourselves short on.

Melanie 34:19

Right.

Jason 34:19

It it can't replace thinking, right, it can only amplify, and so that is um much like the calculator that we you know in math class.

Melanie 34:30

So is AI being helpful when it comes to education? Um the redefinition I think is is helpful.

Jason 34:38

Yeah.

Melanie 34:38

If we redefine ourselves in different levels of intellect, the more human version and utilizing AI as a tool, then yes, if we can leverage being helpful, and so we have this understanding mindset of you know, um, are we going to just be good or not good at something? Are we gonna be capable of learning?

Jason 35:08

Sure.

Melanie 35:09

And so um AI can't make that definition for self, but humans can. Are we gonna be stuck in what I am good or not good at, or am I gonna be able to learn and increase myself? And so when we can use AI and again, not as a replacement, yeah, but to be be what it's supposed to be, which is Google and steroids, right, then it amplifies, it makes learning um something much more right.

Jason 35:40

It depends on your approach, right? How you see yourself, right?

Melanie 35:45

And so it depends on mindset, exactly. And so, you know, that's where we are, I guess, with um uh trying to identify learning. Um we also have you know, children that are in in school, so um this matters right now because it matters in you know in those school settings, it matters in college settings. Um they're fighting AI a lot, um, which I totally get, you know, AI cannot write your term paper for you. Please don't. Well no. But you know, they're fighting it in this. Are you using this to replace learning?

Jason 36:27

Right.

Melanie 36:27

Well, if it's replacing learning, that's lazy.

Jason 36:30

Yeah.

Melanie 36:30

If it's enhancing learning, then that's utilizing that tool.

Jason 36:35

Yeah.

Melanie 36:35

You know, just like Google, just like anything else that is um come across, you know, it is a tool.

Jason 36:40

Right, right.

Melanie 36:41

And so we need to teach students to learn with AI and not hide behind AI as its own way of thinking. It's not a way of thinking.

Jason 36:54

No, it's it it shouldn't think for you, but it you know, don't walk behind it and let it take care of everything, walk alongside it as, you know, a collaborative tool.

Melanie 37:11

So that's for each student to decide for themselves. You know, am I gonna use it for um gain? Right. Or am I gonna use it as a crutch? But I think what what's probably more important is not each individual student, but the system itself, and you know, are we going in the right direction? W as far as at the educational system.

Jason 37:37

Sure.

Melanie 37:38

If we have things in place that are again replaceable. Right. And so with schools still to this day, and it's been it's been m too many decades to uh still be this way.

Jason 37:53

Centuries, really.

Melanie 37:54

Uh where we are rewarded for sitting still.

Jason 37:58

Sitting still, being quiet.

Melanie 37:59

Rewarded for memorization, yeah, rewarded for high test scores.

Jason 38:03

Yeah.

Melanie 38:04

Um gonna just throw this out there, uh, rewarded for attendance.

Jason 38:10

Yep. Yeah, I know I I get it.

Melanie 38:14

Um when maybe the future needs to go into or lean into more of the rewarding of broader and and a more creative, more communicative, no, definitely, uh, problem solving and and moral understanding of things. Um, you know, that maybe we're we're selling ourselves a bit short, we're cutting ourselves off a bit at the knees when AI can do this.

Jason 38:49

Yeah.

Melanie 38:50

So maybe we need to jump in a little bit further into a lot of different ways of thinking about intelligence.

Jason 38:56

Yeah, and again, I know we were we were talking earlier and in one when you were talking about the um AI as a crutch or whatever. This is not too far away from you know the tablets and cell phones, and it's like, are you using this just as a as a crutch or using it to learn things? And then now with the school system, um, as it's always done, um it really depends on how a student is approaching things. And if we're able to use tools to enhance our creativity, our communication, our problem solving, all of those things, then that's all good and well. But of course, as we know, those things aren't measured. Everything is based on these uh standards of learning, at least in our state, and as in many states.

Melanie 39:47

Our state is not alone by any means.

Jason 39:49

That's what I'm saying, but um and you know uh from a human aspect we know that the true tell intelligence for a human involves character and involves integrity. Bravery. Um bravery, like you said. Um there's another one you mentioned earlier, um well, getting into the the emotional side of things, but that gets into discernment, which is I mean, discernment really is a mathematical equation where you're deciding which way is better, if you will, but it's not mathematical in that sense. You are then now using intuition, you're reading the room, you're using um like a soul-searching, you know, uh path. And again, not uh quantifiable. Um compassion and responsibility. What's moral, yeah.

Melanie 40:44

It's moral, which is not capable of being quantified. So exactly. And then how do you say what's moral? Right, you know, well, it's it's the things that that don't hurt others.

Jason 40:56

Exactly.

Melanie 40:57

Well, if if we are defining the system in a way that in in in killing a certain actually a large piece of intelligence um by trying to force it, yeah. Isn't that hurting?

Jason 41:17

It is. Well we by design was that moral. No, okay, we are stifling a lot of students' abilities. Right. And that is very unfortunate. And um as a human, do we mean to? I hope not, but I think because as a system, we are overwhelmed and just pushing this top-down model that we all know doesn't work.

Melanie 41:49

Right.

Jason 41:49

We already knew before, I mean, um a lot of the things we're talking about here, you know, already didn't work. It didn't work 20 years ago. It didn't it didn't work 40 years ago. It didn't work um with the publication of A Nation at Risk in 1983. And it's funny when you look into that, you see that there were changes made to help with teacher retention, to help with longer school days, to help with a lot of these things that actually, if you see what came after that, I question did any of that work, if not got worse. Um, and I know our populace has changed. Yeah, it did. I know.

Melanie 42:31

But I mean we know that for a fact. That's statistic.

Jason 42:34

And there are a lot of factors that contribute to that.

Melanie 42:37

But here So if literacy got worse and the nation at risk was mostly about literacy, then maybe that didn't really help.

Jason 42:46

And we have the Library of Congress in our pocket.

Melanie 42:49

We do. And not only do we have the capability to again just Google, yeah, but now we have the capability of of Google and steroids to really deep dive into lots of different pieces of knowledge.

Jason 43:05

Right. So maybe maybe we need to maybe if we could embrace the technology as a tool collaboratively without fear and without control.

Melanie 43:14

Maybe we were never a nation at risk, but maybe we're definitely not now.

Jason 43:19

Right.

Melanie 43:20

We just need to understand how to utilize those tools.

Jason 43:23

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Melanie 43:25

If the kids can in education can understand, okay, these are tools.

Jason 43:32

Yeah.

Melanie 43:33

And these tools need to be used, these tools need to be understood, right? And we have to remember and define the human. Yeah. What's moral, what is um communication, and what is bigger than just what technology has. So we know ourselves, but then we know how to use technology.

Jason 43:56

Exactly. And By I guess leveraging the human component, are we can we go from the standards of learning to a strategies of learning?

Melanie 44:11

Ooh, strategies of learning.

Jason 44:15

But I think we've definitely hit this pretty hard and it brought up a lot of things. Um I mean I it this is a conversation that I think it's a hard conversation that we need to have because we're part of education is to prepare people for industry. Industry, the landscape of industry is already changing. So why it's not education.

Melanie 44:43

Yes.

Jason 44:44

You know.

Melanie 44:45

And you know, we could say for the good or for the bad, but it what it's really not for us to define anymore. It's for how are we preparing everybody to go into it.

Jason 44:53

Exactly. It's like, you know, we gotta have that conversation and start determining um what we need to prioritize, what maybe we need to let go. Um and attendance.

Melanie 45:07

So I'm sorry.

Jason 45:09

No, no, I mean I I could tell some stories, but um that that's not gonna be today. But I mean um attendance.

Melanie 45:19

That was just a it was such a it's still going on is this we have to fight something, so we're just gonna fight something so arbitrary.

Jason 45:28

Right. And it and it's it's unfortunate that for our school system that a lot of money is tied into attendance, and I think that's that's wrong. Attendance doesn't necessarily correlate performance. For some, yes. For others, no. In fact, I mean when you get to college, sometimes taking a mental health day is what you need to actually get to college, like you said, uh you were talking about a class one time. It's physics class, right? Is this where you're getting at?

Melanie 45:55

Your physics class, where um I went three times. You could not relate to the TA at the time, so it was actually easier for you to do it at home.

Jason 46:05

It was easier for me to learn and then just show up on test days.

Melanie 46:11

I'm not saying do this for for no people in in younger in the in the grade level schools, but in other words, conceptually it's still there. There are certain instances where if you take that time for yourself and just learn it your way.

Jason 46:27

Exactly.

Melanie 46:28

You're gonna be better off.

Jason 46:29

And of course, this is a situation where I was much older and knew what I needed to do and made the decision. But I mean, even younger kids sometimes need a mental health break, and I'm sorry. I'll I'll say I there's no problem with that.

Melanie 46:44

We all take a a break.

Jason 46:45

We all do, even in the corporate world. In the corporate world, you take a day off work. Why can't you take a day off of school?

Melanie 46:50

Right. So reward something that is somewhat arbitrary because it actually doesn't correlate to anything else, you know. That to me is um it was a useless fight and and something that probably just needs to kind of be given up and let go.

Jason 47:09

Yeah, I mean you always see certain narratives that you know become the obsession and then like you say, they're replaced by something else later.

Melanie 47:19

Because eventually this will be a a drop in the bucket and nobody will think about it again.

Jason 47:24

Right.

Melanie 47:25

But right now, because it's so important. Oh yeah, even though we all know that two years from now it nobody will even think about it.

Jason 47:33

Sure.

Melanie 47:34

Then you do kind of go, why are you wasting your time? Why are you wasting my time? Well, I mean on the importance of something that is a drop in the bucket.

Jason 47:44

You you you learn what battles are worth fighting, and then you learn which ones to just finally give up on.

Melanie 47:49

You know, I mean, I have two kids and yes, they have had mental health days.

Jason 47:54

Exactly. Yeah. They they reach a point of, hey, mom, dad, I I just need to collect myself so that when I get back there, I'm able to think more clearly, be able to have a better spirit in what I'm doing, you know?

Melanie 48:13

That was not the as well done as as what you just said.

Jason 48:18

It was it was usually No, it no, that's not how they put it, let me put it that way.

Melanie 48:23

Yeah, they they were not that well articulating what they needed at the time. No, but it was it was still very needed.

Jason 48:30

I was summarizing right for our audience to reenact what actually took place, probably, or the two-hour conversation that led to okay, you just need this. You just need a day, yeah.

Melanie 48:46

So and that's okay too.

Jason 48:48

And that's okay, right. So, uh, that there I we knew this was gonna be a little longer one, and a little heady, and and we know we could probably go much more, but it it is, I think, a very important topic right now. Very timely, more timely than I feel like um a lot of attention is given to. But um if you want to chime in, please by all means, you know, let us know your thoughts. Yeah. And um, you know, because it this is a topic I think is going to come up again. Um and again, until the paradigm shifts.

Melanie 49:30

It is, it's very important that um we define ourselves within a new society.

Jason 49:37

Yeah, and um and and that's a good thing. Yeah, but the writing's on the wall, and I think it it's coming. Um but I mean it's here, we're just yes we're just naturally. It's here, exactly. But I think the change is coming, but I think we need to wade through a lot of political blockades, we need to let go of a lot of tradition, and we need to we need to let go something here. And but yeah. So with all that said, I mean, obviously uh we just want to thank everyone for their support and um, you know, continue to you know follow and you know, review our podcast, you know, like it, help the algorithm move if this resonates with you, and we appreciate all of you for listening. So unplugging for now.

Melanie 50:31

But always stay connected.