Episode 6: Paige Fuoco - Hoyden Branding

What does it take to buy a creative agency, modernize it, and grow it entirely on your own terms? In this episode, Brandon and Alex sit down with Paige, Owner and CEO of Hoyden Branding, for an honest and energetic conversation about what it really means to lead a creative business. 

Paige opens up about the biggest shift she made after acquiring the agency -- moving away from a production-house model and leaning hard into brand strategy and relationship-driven work. She shares how being in the same life stage as her team has shaped her leadership style, why going fully remote has made her more productive (even if she misses the office vibes), and how she keeps company culture alive without a shared physical space. 

From navigating maternity leaves and scaling challenges to weighing outside investment and staying true to her "frugal boss" roots, Paige gets real about the messy math of growing a small agency. She also talks about an unexpected niche she's found in financial services -- and why she's on a mission to make wealth management, insurance, and financial planing actually cool. 

Plus: her unfiltered new podcast Hoyden and Hang, why difficult clients are sometimes her favorite ones, and what she'd tell herself about asking for help sooner. 

Find Paige and the Hoyden Branding team on Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn @hoydenbranding.

Connect with Lean Rocket Lab: 

• Website: leanrocketlab.org
• LinkedIn: Lean Rocket Lab
• Facebook: Lean Rocket Lab
• Instagram: @Leanrocketlab
• TikTok: @Leanrocketlab
• YouTube: Lean Rocket Lab

Don't miss a single story! Subscribe, rate, and review Startup Storytelling by Lean Rocket Lab wherever you get your podcasts. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to the Startup Storytelling Podcast by Lean Rocket Lab. I am your host, Brandon Markin, with my co-hostess with the most this with the yellow glasses. Alex Masson. On the Startup Storytelling Podcast, we tell the unfiltered, unedited, behind the scenes stories of amazing entrepreneurs in our community, and we've got an exciting episode for you today. Alex.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Yeah, what's up, man? Where are your yellow glass sticks?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Sorry, I'm failing the two times in a row.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

No, it's I've had to really, really be you. You know, I've really got to go in here and be you.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

You do it, you're doing great.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Well, I'm really excited because I have a friend. We have a friend here today, Paige Fuoko. You can't. Did I say it right? I did. Yes. Snapped. Okay. Yeah. Okay. She on Hoydon branding, which actually started in Adrian, Michigan, correct? Correct. Yeah. You're full remote now. Are you back? Yes, anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Anywhere in the world world, you can pull Michigan. So it's bleak.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

It's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Well, Paige and I met, I don't even remember how we met, actually. It was through Molly. It was through Molly, yes. Yeah. So take us back to the beginning because you are a Canadian. I am. And you came to Michigan to go to college, correct? Correct. And you went to Adrian College. I did to play hockey. Oh, okay. Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah, that's right. Ice hockey for my fellow. I'm a dual citizen, so I can I can say fellow Americans and Canadians. So everyone's like ice hockey in my world. I'm like, what other type of hockey? I forget there's field hockey. So yes, I make that clear, ice hockey. The Canada um like precursor kind of implies that.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

So were you rooting for in the Olympics most recently, where the U.S. won both listen.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Listen. It's a it was a win-win for me. I think I would have gone either way, but in July, I was pretty pumped that the U.S. won in the way that they won. And I love that it was like the men's, the women's, and the Paralympic men, like so many golds. Right. It was amazing. So yeah, we were actually in California watching that game. So it was a 5 a.m. wake-up call for us. We set our alarm. The day that you woke up.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Oh, yeah. All right. That's mad props.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah. Well, my husband and I both played hockey. He actually coached me. That's a story for another day. I didn't know that. I didn't put that on my timeline. Yes. He coached me at Adrian, and then we fell in love. Oh, and then he stopped coaching me because it's round upon.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

You gotta love the good like coach player romance. We had fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

We had drinks about that one.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yes, yes, the after hours episode. The after hours episode. So, okay, so now let Brandon take over. I know I'm gonna be like today's today's, I'm gonna probably take a lot of the questions. But one thing that I would love to know is when you were Adrian College, did you have because you because you are a um branding agency, yes. So Hoiden branding. Did you go to school for marketing? Or tell us about kind of how that came about.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, yeah. So I went initially, I was gonna do interior design because I'm a big, just creative person in general. So it was like I hands-on stuff. I wanted like an architecture kind of background, that kind of thing. Realized just how much physics, like you should know that. But then I went into it and I was like, oh, right, the physics component. So I was like, all right, interior design is kind of my like fallback, if you will. Started in that, and then they didn't have enough people to fill the one class, and they were like, if you don't get this class every single one in order, you're gonna be way behind. It's the most intensive course here at Adrian. So I was like, oh, not for me. So I fell back on another one. I was like, all right, well, I love, I am a big just brand marketing, anything like that. I love. So I actually just went in for general business, but I fell in love with the marketing side, having one of my professors, Dr. Ellsworth. She's the GOAT. She was amazing. And she like made me fall in love with branding because she would bring in these like PR kits from William Sonoma and all these different really big companies that she used to work for. And I could see the story like physically coming to life. And I was like, gotta do this. So that was kind of what started it. Um, and then I like inadvertently got an economics. Like, I was supposed to get my um associate's degree, but it was double dipping, so I just got a minor, but have I used that since? No. Nox minor? No, absolutely not. Um so yeah, that's kind of how I fell into it. So business major, and then yeah, I got the job, well, of internship, I should say, at Hoyden, tail end of my senior year, and then I haven't left since.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, tell us about that. So you graduate college at Adrian College, and you get this job at Hoyden Branding, which at that point was owned by Molly and um somebody, Sarah. Molly and Sarah. Molly and Sarah and Sarah were co-owners. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

They started it together and it was Hoydon Creative Group at the time.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

So I came in, BSed my way. I'm gonna, I'm gonna not cuss. I'm gonna just do acronyms. I BSed my way through that saying, like, oh, I think nice of you. Thank you. I I can do design, I can do all those things. And I was like, I don't never like I've done one graphic design course, like in high school, never actually did it. And I was like, Yeah, I I've got it all figured out. So I went home and learned it. I was like, all right, gotta learn Adobe, and just went from the you tell me what to do, and I'll figure it out role all the way. Then I became our junior designer, our senior designer. And then I was like, I can't stand being behind a computer the whole time. Like, I'm a people person, I have to be out there. So I asked, I was like, what can I do differently? And they said, How about strategy? And then I started doing that, which is really just a fancy way. Our brand strategist role has always really been our account manager role. Um, it's just a fun way of putting it. It feels more on brand for us to say that. So that's what we did. And yeah, I just kind of slowly went into that role. And I still design every day. Like, I'll pop in and do things. My designer's always like, stop it. It's not your job anymore. I'm like, yeah, but I just want to like dabble, you know. So she's my I say accountability buddy because she holds me accountable to not get in the weeds. But yeah, I digress. So yeah, and that's kind of where it started. It was I've had every title, I think. Just every year I would like change and get new business cards and just continue to evolve. So that's amazing. All the way up to ownership. That's amazing. Which is the second half of that story, which I keep going, but I'll let's let's dive into it.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Let's want to so yeah, we try to have people on the podcast that have cool businesses, but also people that have different perspectives in terms of what they do as an entrepreneur, how they got there. And so obviously you took a different path than some of our other guests, and that you didn't start the business, but you knew you wanted to be a business owner and you bought the company. And so that's a pretty cool journey. I think personally, more people should buy businesses than they do. And, you know, there's awesome aspects about starting your own company, but sometimes it's a really good path to go down. So talk a little bit about how you got in, how you bought the business and how you came, you know, to that path.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, absolutely. I would say entrepreneur adjacent area. I'm gonna mix that in again. Yeah. Um, so it was kind of it's interesting. So I sat down with Molly. I think this was, gosh, in some point during COVID. Um, we sat down and I was like, hey, what can I do? Like I want to continue to grow. Like I knew my whole life, didn't know if I'd ever get married, have kids, but I knew I really wanted to have a really good career. That was always my thing. So I was like, okay, I'm ready for the next thing. Like I've I've done these roles, what can I do now? And she was like, Well, that's funny you say that. Cause I was gonna see if you were interested in purchasing over like a three to five year plan of taking over the business. And I immediately I like paused for a couple seconds and I said, F yeah. F Let's do it. So I did that and then off we went. So we started planning, and then actually what happened was Molly experienced long haul COVID. She got COVID and experienced all of essentially like the worst things to an extent that could happen. Yeah. So she just like mentally couldn't really do what she needed to do to run the business, had a lot of personal things going on with her herself, her family, those types of things. And she was like, I'm just not fit for this anymore. So what was supposed to be three to five years like quickly became about two. So we that was kind of how it all started. So we started the conversation, yes, and I just kind of started slowly moving into that role anyway, and she would just kind of take a step back as we continued to work toward it. And then it came, we did our valuation of the company in March of 23. All that was good, did all the other stuff, and I had taken over officially in January of 24. So it was really quick of a turnaround. I mean, we were prepping for it ahead of time, but I mean, what's like nine months essentially of like getting it done? It was really, really fast. So I'm grateful for it. It was kind of just like throw me into the wolves and see what happens, but it's been great. And luckily, my team, I mean, they've been they're very aware of like I'm doing this for the first time. So like I'm very open with my team and they know like their opinion very much matters and it's gonna be a good thing. So was she fixed?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

By the time you took over, was she out of it because she had had the COVID issues? Like, was she not working for the business?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

She wasn't doing much, she was essentially just the ownership role. So so I was I I was in the senior brand strategist role there. And that's kind of if we think about the story of purchasing and like why it's a good option. What helped was because I had built it so much with her in the years before, like that allowed me to have like it's funny to say, like a discount on the purchase price of the business because I actually played a significant role in its development.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

The success, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah. So and I said Sarah before. So Molly and Sarah started it, and then Molly bought Sarah out and she went and actually we worked with Sarah for many companies that she's been with. We've worked with her as their outsource agency. So it's been kind of cool that way. So that's where it was just Molly toward that tail end. And then yeah, I it was just one of those things where on paper you see the valuation of company, you're like, I don't have that kind of money, but then you realize like small business loans and then all those little things you just do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, can we talk about that? Because I think one of the questions, like based on what Brandon's asking you, is I think sometimes people is like, how do I even start to know? How do where do I go to get a valuation of a company? Like, or who do I talk to? Or if that's something that I want to do, where do I get connected to? So can you talk to us about that? Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

So we use Drew McClellan, who runs um, oh gosh, I'm not gonna remember exactly. He he like specializes in Yeah, he's a broker for yeah, exactly, like all agencies, yep, exactly. So he we actually flew him in, him and his um, I think it I think he had someone else with him. Uh, we sat down in Jackson, actually, at the hotel right on the weird intersection. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we went and rented out a conference room and we just went through all the stuff. He drilled me with questions, Molly, all that stuff. And then basically making sure that the direction I wanted to take the agency was viable, and then did all the research, all the other stuff to do the actual valuation of it and like created this essentially like playbook report that was like 30 pages of this is what we see and this is why we're valuing it at this price point. Um, I would never have known where to start. Molly had been connected with him for a while, like using him as a kind of like a mentor in our space. He's just a really yeah, exactly. Um, so it was, I mean, it was a pricey ask for him to come in, but it was, I mean, it was worth it. It was all I wouldn't have been able to do it without that, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

And I totally agree with that approach. You know, as someone who's bought an existing business, I think as an entrepreneur, there's a lot of times where I'm like, oh, we can do this ourselves or figure it out ourselves. That is an area, at least the first time or first couple times where I'm like those experts, those people that come in and can help guide you through a transaction like that, yeah, is like mission critical. I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Oh my gosh, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

It was there's just so many landmines. There's so many ways it can go wrong, so many ways you can miss the valuation mark. And so that's really cool that you had an agency specific person broker come in to help you with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Big time. And you think about all like the legality, like I still don't know half the stuff. Like I'm learning all like all the benefits and all those things, like a short-term disability. All the I have had, I've learned all the things, most some of them the hard way, but it's every day you find out something new. Like if for people, my advice would just be in general like, don't think you need to know it all. Like they're you'll be people who know it, and you just have to be okay with it. Like, I was like, I Molly actually stays on as my bookkeeper, which is great. And she yeah, so she still kind of has skin in the game a little bit. Um, and she's available for any sort of like strategic brainstorming. If I I'll call her and be like, hey, this is going on, like, did you ever experience this? And so it's really great. We have a really close relationship, which I'm so grateful for. Um, and having her like at kind of my disposal has been huge. So it's a very unique situation. Like, not everyone's gonna get that. Um, but she was like, if you have anything that I I'm happy to keep doing, outsource some stuff. Like she writes, she's like, if you need any writing, let me know. So it's really good to have that like little bubble, you know, of people that you can just fall back on because she's been through it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

So did you get a loan or did you Yes? Yeah. Oh, yeah. How did that process? Yeah, talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

I got an SBA loan. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

How's that for you? That's just SBA yesterday. Pretty brutal.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

It's uh it's interesting. I realized how much I'm paying in interest after the first year I got my like little stub to show up. And I was like, I think I like gagged a little bit. And I was like, okay, we gotta pay this off stat. I am done with that. Um, like it's it ends up being like the cost of like, and maybe not the whole employee, but a decent chunk of an employee's salary is just going into interest. It's I have a whole feeling. We can do a whole episode about loans and interest, how much I hate them. Um, but yeah, I did that. Um, I actually did, so I had to go and like vet all these different banks and credit unions and things like that who offer those types of loans. And I remember the first one I reached out to, they were like, Yep. So right now it's gonna be probably about 11% interest. And again, it was like, I remember exactly where we were. I was in the passenger seat, my husband was driving, and we were like, What the hell? Like, what is that? Like, that's gonna be insane. And then we got it down to I think like eight, A25, and I'm just waiting for that refinance. Like, okay, you let me know when we can do this, but saved a few percent. But yeah, I had to call around. You have to shop around, ask questions, like, but it was also a pretty expedited timeline. Like, remember, this was supposed to be over the course of a few years. Now, at this point, I had like a few months to get all this rolling and get it done so that I could have a clean break on the end of 2023. So, yeah, that was that was how we did it.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And then did you do any capital stack, or was it a full SBA loan? And did the business broker recommend that to you, or did you just kind of research and figure out what would be the best move for you to purchase the business?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

So we did it was an asset purchase. So the or yeah, so the entity, like that's why it's way in branding now. So the name changed, but everything that the business owned got shifted, right? So, and I don't even know if that's exactly what you're asking, but that's kind of how we did that. Was a recommendation from Drew, who was who was doing that valuation meeting with us. So he was really knowledgeable. And like, if you wanted to go this route, this is what it would look like versus asset purchase, you know, all that stuff. So we weighed the pros and cons. And obviously, we there was a little bit of back and forth, right? Because Molly had to be what was good for Molly to sell, but also not, you know, kind of screwing me over for purchase. So we had a really good happy medium there. Um, and then there's other things that you can do, like uh, so Molly was kind enough and willing to, you know, the down payment piece on the loan and all that. So we have a um, oh god, promissory note. So she would put a certain amount in, and then now after the two years, I can now pay her back for that initial like kickstart into the business. So there's all these different things you can do.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Which I feel like just figuring out a good deal that works for everybody is like half of the battle, and it takes you know, creativity and vision. It's not simple, and it's there's a lot of unknowns when you've not done it before, you know, and so that's impressive just figuring that out. For anyone who is interested in buying a business, I think two books that a mentor and friend who had bought businesses recommended to me, uh, David Shirke, who's a lean rocket lab board member, um, gave me the book uh Buy to Build by Walker Deeble. And then out of that book, I think I went down a rabbit hole and read the Harvard Business Review on buying a uh small business or buying an existing business, I think it was what it was called. And so those are two awesome books because there's like a bunch of steps in the process, the due diligence process, when do you start the loan process, all those different things? It's really helpful to have some um sort of guidance and to to know the roadmap. And so mentors, brokers, and those books were super helpful, you know. And I'm you're like figuring out as you go, you're like, Yeah, get one step done, and then you like, oh, there's this next step and this next step. And so should have done this step. Yeah, and then you get down and like, oh my gosh, next time it'll be way better.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, then you become like a serial entrepreneur, like you start buying all these businesses, like I know how to do it now. Yeah, I didn't, I I'm not like full transparency, I'm not a book reader on like I've tried business books. I've done like the traction, all the EOS stuff, I've tried it all. It's just not for me. It's not how I process things. Like, I am someone who's like, I will just I just need to figure it out my own way. Like if I'm reading, it is a fiction or some like smut. Like, I'm sorry, but like I'm not sitting and doing self-help. I'll figure that out on my own. Like, I'll go to therapy. Experience it. I need to go through it. Throw me in the deep end. Yeah. And I don't I honestly, I the internet's at our fingertips. I'm on my kit on my laptop all day. Like I said, it's my emotional support laptop. It goes everywhere with me. Um, I will just like get on forums, like see what other people are doing, ask online.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Like, I mean, you're reading just different.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

It's in a yes, yes, it's it's it's book adjacent.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

But I would still encourage reading out there to everyone listening to this. Please read.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Reading is good.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

We'll save you money, I promise.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I don't read either. I'm with you. I yeah, I mean, I'm on a reading kick right now. It's just none of that stuff. So getting a Kindle was the nothing nothing at all? No. I'm I'm averaging about a book a week right now. But that's not dang. We've got some yeses in the audience. Yeah. Um anyway, yeah. Studio audience. Um yeah, but I I know traction, like that kind of thing. Like I know that's a big one, but we're actually revisiting that now because we're realizing scaling is the next challenge. I'm sure I'm leaning away. Um scaling is the hard part, right? It's like you're at this point now where we have to evolve and grow and you know, all those things and revisiting some of those, it's more process check, gut checking on like how are we just taking note of how we're doing things? Are we doing it the right way? You know, all those little things. So that's where we're bringing back some of those methodologies.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

But I love EOS interaction, so I'm excited to hear that you're revisiting it. I think it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Everyone Gino's a friend.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

I actually I know Gino, he's a cool guy. So I mean, we just acquaintances, but he's a very cool guy.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

So hangs out at Green and House. Well, I did the entrepreneurial leap academy. Uh I think it was oh god, maybe two years ago now. Um, sweet. Out of and now I'm blanking on his name. He's based out of Lansing area.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Wait, you did the entrepreneur academy with Ryan. Was it Ryan Harris? Yeah, yeah. Super cool.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, he's great.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

I actually helped I actually helped start that. Ken and I did it with Gino and Ryan. So Jake's been doing it. Are you you're famous? I'm not famous, but we did help start it. So I'm glad that you did it.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Did you was it helpful? It was awesome. Yeah, it actually got me. I I started mapping out this is classic, um, classic me thing to do, like hardcore mapping, strategizing planning, and then like not actually doing it.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

It's easy for clients.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

I do it for clients, but for us, it's like all the planning, and then they come first. So things get dropped. But it got me thinking about workshop series and things that I can do with other entrepreneurs. And like I'm just thinking about, okay, for the cost that it was once a month, a full day, it was very much like me as the I paid for it. They were really, I mean, lots of information, great education, but you were really working with your peers. Like it was like breakout groups, you're talking to one another. It was basically like a structured networking opportunity, but then you come together and you do talk as a group. And I just got thinking, like, I would love to run something. I'm like this. So it was, it was really good for me to think about how I'm mapping out, you know, the the company financials and planning ahead for my one, three, five-year plan. But then I got thinking too, like, I could actually run something like this and kind of monetize a similar type of workshop. So it was beneficial in a couple different ways, which was really great. But I enjoyed him a lot. I was always the one, like, no one would talk, and I'm like, I'll talk again. It was an annoying, like brown nosing student. Right, that's right. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

So much fashion.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah, he's he's fantastic. He hypes you up for sure.

unknown 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

So oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

I'm just curious, like, would you do it again? Would you go through and purchase the business again? Oh, a thousand times. Yeah. Okay. A hundred. Yeah. Okay. A hundred, hundred times.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

So many times, yes. So many times. I thought it was great. It I have changed so much as an individual, like, since then. I I can't I can't say it's just because of that. It's other things that happen in your life, but man, every I feel like every week there's something else I'm learning about myself, like overcoming these things and like learning to kind of compartmentalize the different types of stress and being, okay, this is for a different time. And this, you know, I just have to look at things so much yeah, more just differently now. And I have grown so much in different ways. I think it's fantastic. And I would do it. I'd probably well, I know I will. We won't be the only business that I own, but I don't know what the next one is. Well, I mean, we do have another entity, Hoyden Homes. Oh, we just aren't doing anything quite yet with it, aside from a lake house. Oh, okay. Okay. But we're gonna start buying, I think we're gonna do like properties and things like that, just kind of as a separate, like cool.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

You got the bug.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

I got the bug.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Well, because I was curious, like, how is it being an employee of the person you purchased the business from and now becoming the owner who is now the boss of all the people that you were once a coworker with? That's an interesting dynamic. So I'm just curious, like how you dealt with that.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, it is. It's funny. Um, we say this a lot. I'm always like, it's you hear about other people's situations and their businesses. And I I actually do use my husband a lot because his company, you know, you just you analyze it now that I'm in the seat. I'm like, it's not really that hard to just be a good boss because you just have to be a yes, you have to be this the oversee the things and put your foot down and do that, make sure it's running smoothly. But you also just have to be a peer. Like, I don't expect anyone to work harder than I'm working. So, like, I am setting a precedent. My girls know I am grinding. I'm not expecting to like get the biggest paycheck while they all do the dirty work. Like, that's not the expectation. I'm very open with them. Um, I am also very like, because I was on the other end of things and I was the employee, and I had a really good, like Molly was fantastic to me. Having that be what I learned, I knew it's an empathetic perspective. Like, I know if it were me, this is how I would want to be treated. It's it's the golden rule concept, right? And what I've been trying to do is like it's again, it's not hard. It's like common sense type stuff. Like, what can I be doing a little bit more for you? Like, I just purchased today some little gifts I'm gonna be sending out like every couple months. I like to send them like a little package of stuff and like, you know, all the different things you can do that people don't like student loan repayment. There's all these other things that are like tax strategies that help me and my girls, and it's custom to each of them. If you don't need it, okay, what else can I be doing for you? You know, so there's a lot of that like open conversation. And we're also, I mean, if we had 50 people, maybe I couldn't be doing quite as much customization as I am now, but that's how many places? Six, six. So very much boutique. Um, I am looking for a creative director. Oh, okay. Shout out to the creative directors out there. Um, yes, I do need a job. You can share this podcast. Please share this podcast. Yes, absolutely. Well, the funny thing is, just really quick backstory here. Three of the six, not I was not one of those three, um, were pregnant at the same time this year. So that there was fun. Wow. Yeah. Uh we have all women.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

No comment. No comment.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Going for that. It has been, I'm like, I'm so happy for you and your families, but yeah, what's going on? What's in the water? Um, yeah, all women. I should have, I should have started with that. We are all women.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Um, have nothing helpful to contribute to this conversation to the leave it alone.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

I'm like, I either need to hire, I don't think this is IMHR really. But that's what it's like. I'm like, I'm HR now. I can't.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

That's why you added Claude and Chad to the Two Men adjacent, I'm telling you right now. She won't hire men, but she's got some AI agents. Yes. And they're crushing it, and they don't take maternity.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

I love that. I love that. We've been talking about maybe having them give us an image of what they view themselves as, like Claude and Chad, and then putting them on our website. Talking about ChatGBT ever. Yes. Yeah, these aren't real men. Chad and Claude.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

They do the work of 10 men. They do.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

They do.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Wait, I have a question. So you have an agency, which is like uh industry that's, I mean, rapidly like every industry, but like rapidly being changed.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

AI.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Uh big time.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I find there's two type two groups of people. There's like, we're gonna put our heads in the sand and ignore it, and then there's people that are like, we're gonna leverage the heck out of this and and use it to change our business. And so, how have you been using it? And what are you learning so far? And what are you thinking about the future of your business and the industry and the tools and everything around, you know, Claude and Chad and the other matter workers in your company? It's a spice the age AI agentic men working at your company.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yes, um, they I'm gonna answer this in reverse order. Um, I'm terrified about the future of AI. Honestly, it's so if the after hours episode with some drinks to all start soft. It's so it's just advancing so quickly to your point.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Like it's wrapped up. There's a lot of endings in those podcasts that are not super exciting.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Like, what did we learn from like iRobot? You know, like right? Didn't we go through this already? But yeah, anyway, um, a conversation for another day. But we are very much utilizing it. Um, we're walking a fine line. So I have a little backstory on a client that came in um to give you kind of an idea of how I like just think about it now. So we had a client come in for a complete rebrand, which was fantastic. We did our whole presentation, they they loved it, went back to the board. We'll learn to not work with companies with boards anymore. Yeah. It's it was really tough. And not to mention, very um senior, senior board. It wasn't like a young board.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

So what we do is we have a tool that we use that we dump all of our research and all of our like our discovery notes into and have it like we use AI as a drafting tool, essentially. Like, give me, I have a lot going on. Give me ideas based on all these things that we uncovered, spit it back to me in this format, and then we'll take that as kind of a starting point to, you know, edit, revise, and get back to the client or start designing and use that way. So what's that we did? We did a whole strategy on why we did what we did with the brand, all based on our like several hour discovery with them. And we presented them with it was like about a 50-page report. Like it's really, really needy. Um, and then we do our own custom presentation. So it's fully branded, it has all the main points that we really need to move the needle, but they have all the meat behind like the research in a packet. And they were like, so the the women that we presented to, they all loved everything. They're like, this is fantastic, exactly what we were looking for. Send it back to the board. And it was like, oh my god, the most unhinged responses, like like ripping us apart. And we were like, what just happened? Like they were saying, like, they clearly don't know what they're doing. This is obviously just a bunch of AI. This is uh they're way too young, like they're they're inexperienced, like all this stuff. And we were like, just we know how many hours we spent like getting all what we needed, and just we're if you wanted us to write out 60 pages of a report, that's your entire budget. Like that, right? That is most of the money you just wanted us to use. Like, we're using these tools so we can actually put more effort into the things that aren't being done with AI.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

See, that's an interesting spin. Crazy. That's an interesting spin though, like about like the the amount of money or the budget that you have for something like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

That's all day. Like, come on, right. And all it is is why would I work? It's work smarter, not harder. Like, why would I do all that time when it's just really typing things out when you can go and source it, I can review it, make sure it's accurate. Okay, this is looking good. This is not, go fix that. We probably went through that three or four times back and forth, and then just our own copy editing before we gave it to them. And that was already several hours. So it was one of those things where it really stung at first. I was like, wow, I can't be using AI. And then I was like, no, it's the wrong people. We're just working with the wrong people because I have other clients that we work with who's like, we call him Chad now, be like, have Chad run this. Great. And then, like, that's what we do. We like use them as like a personified tool, essentially. No, those are the types of clients that we need to have.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

And I think it goes back to the last podcast we had with Aaron Cole from Donation Bakery. And I had asked him, like, how do you deal with the growth in a small business when customers are asking you for things that you don't maybe want to provide? I think it's just like another way. It's like, it's just not the right customer fit. Yep. Right. Yeah. And you have to know when to say, no. Yeah. We don't want to work with you, or this isn't gonna, this isn't a good fit for us.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

And that is so hard. Like, I think about again, like scaling is hard. If you look at it's easy to say yes. Like if we have the capability to do it, it's like someone's like, yeah, I have $5,000. And I'm like, okay, on paper, though, we're not starting that type of project for anything less than 20, but I know we could knock that out really quick. It's so hard to not just be like, yeah, no problem. But you have to say no. And like you have to put your foot down, or else you're just gonna continue to have those like small potatoes when you really want those bigger types of clients. So I'm learning that as we go. Luckily, being remote, we also have like anyone at our fingertips. Like we worked with clients like California. I was out there, that was with a client. And then I was out a few months ago out in New York. So literally coast to coast of clients, and you realize like what is working and what's not. And I just know now I again I've learned all the lessons the hard way. Non-negotiables, if you're gonna have an opinion on the outcome, you must be part of Discovery. So that board was not part of Discovery, but they had a lot to say. Yep. So that's a non-negotiable now. And then those little things, like what are like thinking out loud now? Like maybe I should be asking, what are your views on AI before we start a project? Because we are we're not gonna use AI to build your creative. Like, we're all designers at heart, we're gonna do that. But yeah, I know much, know how I when we say I'll come AI is working on overtime. I have so many ideas, like like process this for me and spit me back something that actually makes sense. It's not just like word bomb it. So it's just people's perspectives and it's not going anywhere. So you gotta kind of get on board whether you want to or not. So I know I am.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

What is like the biggest change you made when you took over the business? What were you like, this is the thing? And I I know you're gonna want to answer this, so you're not trying to like disrespect the ladies that you bought the business from, but like, what was the thing where you're like, man, now that I'm in charge, I want to do this different or better, or this is the biggest problem and I need to solve it?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

That is a great question. Um man, I don't even know if I have an answer for that right off the top of my head. I know that me being in the same age group as the rest of my employees, like we're anywhere from 26 to 35. Like, that's our bucket. Prime baby making it starts to come together. It starts to come together. Yes. Um, so that that alone has been helpful just because, and like Molly, I think she had made that comment a few times. Like, it's just it's evolving into something that it naturally needs to be. And I don't, you know, she kind of I think was feeling that. Yeah, I mean, she's again fantastic, but I think that was helpful to like be able to have more of a personal relationship with my team and then implement those things. Like I, if we could do more in-person stuff or if I can offer something that's a little bit more like a modern way of doing things, like that kind of perspective. But honestly, Molly did so many things great. I think at the end of the day, the biggest one is probably just where we want to focus on like the less like production house kind of style. She was already leaning away from that with strategy, but my goal was like really leaning in and just developing more of the brand side of things. Um, and then also we we found this kind of natural layer of friction, so to speak, with certain types of clients. Like I have most of the best clients I work with are all men and they're all difficult, but in a good way. Like I love them, they're my favorite ones. Like, no offense. It sounds like Brandon. Yeah, okay, exactly. No, Brandon and you're not difficult. But yeah, it's it's I remember this my my client that's out in New York, and we were working with him, and it just wasn't really working who he was with. And I was like, Molly, let me let me have a stab at him. And she was like, All right. And ever since that day, like he is like family, like he tells me in Spence that he loves us. Like he's he's very much like a work dad, and he is, and he will admit it, I'm gonna look right at the camera. He knows who he is, very difficult. But we love him and he's incredible and he treats you like family. So it's like you start to weigh those those things, and I just realized I want to lean into that, like the relationship building and yeah, you know, being out in person and that kind of stuff was big.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

That makes a ton of sense for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

So did you move them from because you guys had a brick and mortar and Adrian? Did you make the decision to go all remote, or was that Molly that did that? Nope, that was Molly.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

We did that during COVID. Um, we've always been like hybrids. So if you wanted to come in, you do. But like if you needed to work from home, you could. I never did that because one, I'm a teacher's pet at heart. Like, I want to make sure I get my straight A's and you know I'm in school. So I would make sure I showed up every day, even though I could work from home. Um, and then COVID happened and we were like, oh, we can, we're all on our computers all day. Like we could do this from home, which was great. And then you saved the money on the space. I would love to have a space again. I really enjoyed it. It's just, you know, that several thousand dollars could be going back into my girls' pockets and not just for something that's fun to look, you know, and it has its pros and cons. But yeah, we were downtown Adrian and then we just went remote. And then I moved from Adrian up into the Lansing area. And then that's just that all happened around a similar timeline. So we were in our house up there for about a year before I purchased.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

So yeah, it's how do you keep the vibe up when you guys don't have a place to meet? Meet somewhere. Do you we try to as much as we can?

SPEAKER_01 35:15

We do a like holiday party every year, or every year. It's only been a couple of years now, but I've had it at my house both years, and it's super fun. I mean, we every morning we have huddles, we're on and off camp all day long through Slack, like hop on real quick, have a discussion, dip out. Um, we do try to get together when we can. Uh, luckily, Kelly and myself uh we're very good friends outside of work, which is fantastic. So the two of us are together quite a bit, but you know, Kennedy is like three and a half hours from me now. So we've now we have to kind of plan things to get together. Planning a little summer hangout at the lake. It'll be fun. But yeah, it is it is tough not having that like personal. But I'm telling you right now, I would be so unproductive if I had a office again. Tell me about it. Like I get some home so fast like I'm like, all right, y'all, I gotta leave because I cannot talk anymore. And then I'll have time. If I'm on my computer for like quite frankly, I'm probably on my computer at least 10 hours a day, at least. And that is like actual like get shit done time. Yeah. And this is if I'm in person, I'll yap, I'll do this all day. And then I'm, yeah, I'm gonna drop the ball. So we kind of need that separation. Yeah. Um, totally.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

And you think about growing. Are you I guess first of all, first question would be maybe like two to five years is the plan to grow? And then are you looking at it like, hey, I might buy another agency to expand, or I just want to organically grow with my team, or what are you thinking?

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I have a pride problem where I want to do everything myself, and I don't want help because I want to be able to prove to myself that I can do it. So, and I realize that's kind of a dumb way of thinking because when you have the people to be able to help you get there. You don't read books. That's why I don't read books. So self-help, I don't need it. It's fine. I'm on my side. I'm perfect. Um, so I yeah, I I really do um that's hilarious realizing how silly that is. Um the growth, sorry, go back. So I would like to grow. I think 10 employees feels comfortable. I want to be in a spot where I can have like a couple different pods where strategist, creative director, design, support, and I have two buckets, like you focus on these companies, you focus there. Um and we're getting there, but this number is tough because it's at the cusp of not to mention team keeps going out on maternity leave, but who they think they are. But um, it's hard to kind of find that. I have to, I have to walk a fine line, right? Of like, you don't want to hire too soon. That's the whole scaling thing. So growing over the next couple of years, my goal is to get to 10 and see how kind of like pressure test that. But that means I also need to take a step away because I'm in all the things right now because I've built all the relationships. My clients know me. They they want to hear from me, and it's a hard thing to break. So just finding the right people is uh so true. It's tough, but it's we're getting there. It's just it's a slow burn. And like we don't have to grow. I want to. Like we're comfortable, everyone's making good salaries, we're consistent, everyone's you know, good. It's just I have the ever like I just want to continue.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

You're usually either growing or going backwards. Very hard to stay the same. It's it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Yeah, yeah. And we've got like one of my one of our big clients, um, he handles it's uh the founders share. They handle, they bring in founders in sure tech, fin tech, wealth tech, like those types of spaces, and then they have funders who come in. And basically it's an a few-day event based around these founders come in, they essentially pitch, it's not really pitch competition by any means, but they go and they say this is what I'm needing the funds for, but also strategic guidance or partnerships, that kind of thing. And I've built so many relationships with these funders now. And at the last event, the one was like, Why aren't you up here like saying yourself? I'm like, I don't know, because I have, again, like my too much pride. Like, I want to just do it myself. He's like, if I had someone that came in when I was your age and said, here's the money that you need to go do what you need to do, he's like, No, much quicker I would have in bit. And I'm like, Yeah, that's a good point. So then you start weighing those options. Like, do you want hands in it and having those partners and get yourself? I could hire the the remaining four right now with that investment. Right, right. But do I want to owe more money? Like, then I think about like the debt piece and like all those other things. It's time. Luckily, they're all really great, fantastic people. Like, I would be lucky to be partnered with them.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

It's just you got to just all those things all create consequences, good, and otherwise, you just have to understand going in, right? Big time, prospect. Whatever kind of money you take has implications, yep. You know, whether it's investors or a bank loan or partners, history, and most of lots of them are good, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Um, yeah, yeah. It's it's you said depending on what kind of money, I don't know, couldn't be anything. Um, yeah, no, I uh I don't need anyone brass knuckle it coming to my door. You owe me money. That's my fear. That's your fear. Wow, no, no, no. Um, it's just yeah, it's tough. You gotta weigh that. And they've said a million times, like you have to be all in on what like you need to know for sure if that's where you want to take it or not. Because if you do it feeling like like out of obligation, it's not gonna be a good fit. And you're gonna just end up stressing yourself out more, and it's gonna be, you know, all these it's a gonna be a negative more so than a positive. So there's a lot to weigh, but I've definitely been considering it. And it might come to that point, maybe at the end of this year, it'll be like, all right, I really need to consider that. If I want to grow, I need to have a little extra cash flow just so I can comfortably get there. Um, but I am a frugal person, so I'm always gonna go for the deal. Make sure that bank counts nice and high. Then you realize the government just takes half of it at the end of the year. So I'm learning that too. My first year of taxes was oh gosh, that's spicy. Right? Spicy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Well, we're getting the hands to this segment is presented by Lally Group. Go ahead and get your tax prep done. Oh, okay. You can work that in. I think they sponsored a podcast, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah. I'll get that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Bradley. Oh, okay, yeah. Bradley's on our board at the Naka Lab, so Bradley doesn't ask the Lily.

unknown 41:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

That's great. Well, we're getting the wrapping up. So I wanted to know. I want to know what does the future hold for holding. I mean, we've already kind of talked about it, but is there anything exciting that's coming up or anything that you want to tell our audience that they should be looking out for? Like your podcast. The podcast. Or anything like that. I love that. Thank you. Please, this is your moment.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

I get to plug all the things. Yes, you do. Okay, podcast is hoid and hang and yeah, thank you. Alliteration. We're literally just hanging out. It's a whole thing. Um swearing and alliteration. We cuss, we cuss a lot. Yeah, there's uh it's unfiltered for sure. Um that is me and my uh coworker Kelly, the two of us. And again, we're right, we're 20 minutes from one another, so it makes it really easy. So we're doing that. Um, but I do want guests and I want input. I want to expand that. So yeah, if anyone is like, hey, interview me for fun, let's do it. I'm learning as I go, right? So that's really cool. Um, otherwise, just continuing, like I said, hiring. We're trying to kind of get everyone falling back into their lanes. Um, I'll have one of my girls leaving indefinitely because she's taken on the mom life, which yep, yep, she's got one already, and this will be her second. So I will have to fill that role. Um, otherwise, things that are going on, I mean, we're really leaning into this, like I never thought I'd see the day, like financial planning, wealth management, insurance. Like it's I joke with all my clients. I'm like, this is the least sexy industry, but we're gonna make it sexy. So they're the best people. Oh my god. You're talking about clients, like working with okay. Yes, as clients. Like and we realize there's this like bubble of retirement that's gonna be happening and an opportunity for especially those types of agencies or or you know, kind of like IMOs, like they have their kids that are like their successors, right? So they probably want a rebrand, they want all those. So we're at this really cool bubble. We just have to like break through it. So that's my plug for anyone who's like financial planning, wealth management, insurance, like your girl. I come to us. We get it now. I never thought I'd say it, but we get it. And it's fun. I'm telling you, they're the best people. So um, yeah, that's it. Otherwise, how can they follow you? How can they find you? We're on TikTok. Awesome. Okay, I know. Add to my three likes on my last video if so. Oh no. We are bumping. Um, TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, websites, everything's Hoyden branding. Okay. Um, and then yeah, I mean, if I'm uh sometimes I'm speaking at things, I'll drop that in there, but that's usually it. And then you can text or email. You know, I'm feeling I'm really cool. I'm a regular boss, I'm a cool boss. Thank you. I appreciate that. I say that to myself once a day. I'm like, my morning affirmations, I'm like, you're a cool boss from Girl Dad. I mean girl.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

We have fun.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Well, Paige, thank you so much. Thank you guys. On a blast.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

This page it was great.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

It was not going to be a good idea. And you guys know what to do. You just gotta go and you gotta subscribe to our little podcast here. Uh square. Subscribe. Yeah, don't be a square subscribe. Come on, guys. I think we need a third co-host, Brandon. And I think in this two page, I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

I don't know if I'm in at that point. Both of you guys so much. Paige and Alex Arubas.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Or just me doing this.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

I just got kicked out of the podcast. It's tough. It was great. If you'll have me, I'll be back. I would just say, I do want to say real quick, I'm just I'm always impressed like when people that are creative also figure out how to run a business. Because I do there's like a right brain, left brain thing there. And so just kudos to you for like being a boss and running the business and growing the business and being like, I'm a creative person, I'm good at this thing, and I know that's like often a challenge for people.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

It's a blessing and a curse.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Yeah, right. So that's really cool. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Thanks, guys. Like I was saying, subscribe where you get your podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, so that you can get our next episode when it's available. Bye. Let's go.