The Truth Begins Here - Part 2

In this episode of The Naturist Vibe, Gabby and Dan continue The Truth Begins Part 2 by unpacking why accountability, safety, and trust matter so deeply in naturist spaces. They examine concerns surrounding the Naked, Nudists and Naturists podcast, its host’s troubling comments and behavior, and AANR’s lack of meaningful response. Through community reactions, public records, and their formal complaint, they call on AANR to live up to its own values and take accountability in defense of ethical naturism.

Related Links:

• The complaint Gabby and Dan sent to AANR, including a PDF that includes links, documents, court papers, etc. 
• I think I’ve lost all faith in AANR via Reddit
• A Frank Non-Apology from Naked, Nudists & Naturists
• With AANR proving that they are the Blockbuster Video of nudist organizations, who is going to step up to be Netflix?

Transcript

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Gabby 0:01

Accountability. It's an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one's actions.

Dan 0:10

When you're seeking to attract younger and more diverse people, you have to understand that this community is tired of feeling dismissed, tired of not being heard. So they have focused on finding ways, language that is more precise, language that actually means something. So we all have to listen. We all have to learn to appreciate the same desire for precision, because if you don't, their feelings of being dismissed are being reinforced. And you risk turning away the very community you seek to attract. Today we are focusing on what it means to be accountable, what it means to hold others to account.

Gabby 0:53

Words matter. Actions matter. It's time for people to stand up and take accountability. Welcome back to the Nass Vibe. I'm Gabby the Crown Nudie.

Dan 1:49

And I'm Dan Maker of Things.

Gabby 1:50

Today we are continuing to share with the Nats community, our TMV Tribe, the Truth about the Naked Nudist and Nares Podcast. Its hoes, his actions, his words, and his lack of accountability.

Dan 2:06

And the more we learn, the more we realize that Anna should have stayed as far away from this as possible. It was a huge miss on their part to have ever adopted that podcast as their official podcast. But I'm getting ahead of myself here, so hang on. We have a lot to unpack.

Gabby 2:23

So let's start with reminding everyone about why this is important. In the nature's community we are more vulnerable. Safety here is even more important, and we all must be more vigilant and watch out For nefarious actors, naturalism in particular, ethical nature is important and or states that they exist to protect, promote and provide nude recreation. To Crow Anna's own standards and principles, we reject categorically any attempt to associate the good name and reputation of family social nudism of any Anner Chartered Club, or of the American Association for Nude Recreation with the sexual exploitation of the human body. We further reject any use of the terms nudist, nudism, family Social Nudism, or American Association for Nude Recreation as a cover for sexually exploitive purposes, commercial or otherwise, the misuse, abuse, or misrepresentation of any member's relationship with an chartered club or with Anna in violation of these principles and standards. Shall be grounds for termination of membership.

Dan 3:50

And today we're asking Anna to live up to those standards. In the early days of my being an activist in the NAS world, working with people like Lee Baxandall, Morley Schloss, Tony Egbert, and others, there was an important principle that is just as important today. That is to speak up for standards. As naturists. We already have to contend with public perception of what Nudism is. For anyone to do something that harms what we fight for is unacceptable, as it makes it that much harder for the rest of us.

Gabby 4:23

And more importantly, when the very organization that should be out there defending Buddism isn't doing its job, we need to speak up and hold them to account. Naturalism is too important to stay quiet,

Dan 4:36

and naturalism is changing. The people who practice naturalism come from different walks of life, have different views and different expectations. The language has also changed, and this is why the words we use matter. Accountability matters,

Gabby 4:55

and this is where the truth begins. Part two, we pick up from Frank's non-apology, where one commenter on Reddit said quote. Thank you for addressing the non-apology. As a plus size black woman, I pride myself on being body positive in new to spaces and proudly support and encourage women of color to be a part of this community. That was a direct shot to women who may struggle with their own mental health issues regarding their bodies. I hate to say it, but Frank is showing his prejudice towards plus size women of color, and that is not acceptable. Shame on Anna, president Linda Reber for not correcting Frank in real time to say Anna does not allow this type of behavior. On quote,

Dan 5:55

there's gonna be a link to the entire exchange thread in the show notes. But the point here is that when Ner doesn't express concern over remarks like the ones from Frank Stone, it's a real problem. And as of this episode, nobody from NER has addressed the situation, even though we sent an appeal to Linda seeking to repair the situation, and we didn't stop there either. More on that in a bit.

Gabby 6:20

After the post where you, Dan broke down Frank's non apology, a number of other Reddit threads with concerns over Anna came up. For example, one was titled with Anna Proving that they are the blockbuster video of nudist organizations who is going to step up and be the Netflix.

Dan 6:42

And another one was titled, I Think I've Lost All Faith and Anna. This one was a direct follow up to the Frank non-apology post as the moderators locked that one saying the conversation was going on unchecked and that in the moderator's view. It was more of an epitaph on a tombstone than an ongoing conversation worth having.

Gabby 7:02

Clearly, the users disagreed in the lost all faith posts. The original poster said they also went and listened to the comments we spoke about on our podcast here on TMV. The author wrote quote, for an organization that promotes body acceptance and body positivity, these comments and that non-apology are troubling. It made me question whether these attitudes extend beyond celebrities. If Lizzo is spoken about this way publicly, what does that imply about how he views everyday people, privately unquote.

Dan 7:38

The OP made another alarming discovery from the same episode where Frank read a listener letter. That letter app praised him and Lisa, but the way that Frank read that letter was more than just cringe. He put on a version of a sultry voice and read the letter, which said, I just imagined myself having coffee with you and Frank in our birthday suits, somewhere warm, other than here in Illinois.

Gabby 8:04

And then Frank said, see if he had not tossed my name in there, I would have had a little more fun with this. You

Dan 8:12

know, the OP said it came across as having a very sexual undertone and that Frank said he would've taken it further if it was only about Lisa. The OP said quote. As the official podcast of Anna, this felt inappropriate and off message.

Gabby 8:29

The entire post includes more comments from people who feel the same way and question whether Anna is worth being a member of. The links to these Reddit posts will be in the show notes and we encourage you to go read them,

Dan 8:43

and this is where Linda Weber, president of Anna enters the chat. Now, to be fair, she appears to be the only person from Anna putting herself out there. She's very visible on social media. However, she never responded to any of the concerns that people have about Frank Stone and his comments, his body shaming comments, sexual references, or even the remark he made dehumanizing Lizzo.

Gabby 9:06

What she did do was defend Anna, defend her record and implored people to stay with Anna. Run for office and help make the change that people are arguing for. There is nothing wrong with any of that, but she was clearly not addressing the real problem. The post was about.

Dan 9:24

For example, in one exchange, she said that Anna is more than just discounts. The commenter replied and said, quote Linda, respectfully. The problem is many people look around and don't see any results from that work, unquote.

Gabby 9:38

It was shortly after. That where Linda appeared to get defensive saying, if you want change, then be part of the solution. She also then defended her creation of YA DA saying quote, I created ya D because we had no voice for younger people,

Dan 9:55

you know? And as we previously pointed out, at times when YAD should have been involved, especially as it pertains to how they view issues surrounding Frank Stone. They were ignored. When you promise a seat at the table and nobody else shows up at that table, the optics are that it's purely performative. So, Gabby, you answered her. What did you say?

Gabby 10:17

Yeah, I said, Linda, why a D amongst the young and diverse in the community appears as a vanity project on your end. If you really want to make this work, you actually have to have young and diverse. Within the organization that have a real voice. People are aware that YAE can't move needles. It's just there to give ideas that don't actually get implemented. We invited two guests that I thought would be a perfect fit for YAD, and they saw right through what you were telling them. You have to stop with this narrative that it is actually a group that has influence when it really doesn't.

Dan 10:57

Okay, now I'm gonna pause the story here to make a point. When you are a leader in any organization, but more importantly, an elected leader, there has to be a voice. Of that organization's members. It is on you to show empathy, to show that you are able to listen and take member concerns seriously. In fact, in the Enter bylaws, article two, section C two, under Trust, it says, trust. To encourage volunteers to reach their greatest potential, we will provide an atmosphere of respect and cooperation. We will discourage words and actions that negatively characterize volunteers and staff reprimanding or sanctioning. With any tools available, we encourage diverse contributions.

Gabby 11:44

I would also like to point out that there is a book called White Fragility. Why it is so hard for white people to talk about racism.

Dan 11:52

Yeah. And here's the description from that book, in this vital, necessary and beautiful book, anti-racist educator, Robin DeAngelo Deathly illuminates the phenomenon of white fragility and allows us to understand racism as a practice, not restricted to bad people, referring to the defensive moves that white people make when challenging racially. White fragility is characterized by emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and by behaviors including argumentation and silence. These behaviors in turn function to reinstate white racial equilibrium and prevent any meaningful cross racial dialogue. In this in-depth exploration, DeAngelo examines how white fragility develops, how it protects racial inequality. What we can do to engage more constructively.

Gabby 12:47

Anyone who wants to manage A DEI program should consider this book required reading.

Dan 12:52

Okay, so I don't get the impression that Linda read this.

Gabby 12:55

Absolutely not.

Dan 12:56

Or. The trust section of the and bylaws because her reply to you seemed to have come from a place of ego, not a place of empathy. If she had, she would've reached out to you directly to have a real conversation instead. She replied in the thread, Gabby, what did she say?

Gabby 13:15

I am very disappointed and disconcerted by your post as a YAA member and someone who was set to take over as chair of YAAA. Does this mean you felt this way the entire time you had been a part of the council? You spoke a few weeks ago and you never mentioned any of this to me. Negating the work that council members have done is doing a disservice to the people who are on it. It is disrespectful to call it a vanity project, and it is obvious that you don't know how hard I had to work to get this created. I have always had an open door policy to listen to concerns, so I was disappointed to find at this juncture and by this method, your true feelings about your time with YAD. Your interest in being the chair of YED would have given you the opportunity to make the changes you felt were needed, but you chose not to do it. Change happens when people want it enough to work for it. I was hoping you would have been that change.

Dan 14:12

Now, Gabby, while you did respond to her saying it wasn't about her, we do have a couple additional thoughts. Now, it doesn't matter how hard you worked to create ya. A deck, that remark comes across as dismissive and defensive. It says you are not listening. You also say you have an open door policy. But in fact, Linda, you told us directly that you respond to every email and you welcome difficult conversations. But you know what? As of this episode. Linda has yet to reply to the email that I sent to her about these issues, asking for accountability and working on a path to repair.

Gabby 14:50

And Linda, if you are listening, I do want to say this right now. This is about Anna, the lack of apparent concern about Frank Stone, his threat to violate my consent, and honestly the lack of empathy. Many people were adding their voices to the issues, and even though you are visible there, you still remain quiet on the issues that matter.

Dan 15:12

So please, Linda, as President of Anna, it is time to actually have the difficult conversation about all of these recent events. But to be clear, this really shouldn't be all that difficult. So much of this could have easily been avoided if you and Anna had dealt with the issue of Frank Stone promptly and transparently

Gabby 15:32

Since the last episode aired, we have found even more troubling comments made by Frank on his podcast, things that Anna should have called him out on. One is a character Frank created called Andre Aria.

Dan 15:46

This character is modeled after Pepe Pugh, the womanizing cartoon character that many say promotes rape culture. Well, on episode 100, Frank uses this character to hit on his co-host and even suggest that both Lisa and Jennifer go on a date with him. This character is a walking HR violation. Now, in case you want to hear this for yourself, skip to about 52 minutes in on episode 100 of naked nudist to natures and prepare to be well shocked and not just shocked at Frank's behavior. But that Anna, again, did not drop him after that,

Gabby 16:23

and we know they didn't do anything about it because he keeps bringing this character back for more.

Dan 16:29

Yeah, it's like the definition of insanity and. Almost every day we get even more stories and pointers from our listeners to problematic things that Frank has said and done on his podcast. From platforming anti L-G-B-T-Q, bigots, racist remarks, more body shaming and even offensive behavior. In private, we heard one story about an interview where Frank made the person so uncomfortable and acted so creepy that they wanted to end the interview early.

Gabby 16:57

So after our last episode where we explained that Frank Stone is not his real name, which was a surprise even to Linda Weber, president of Anna, one of our listeners, figured out what his real name actually is.

Dan 17:14

Okay. Now, before we share his name, here's why this matters. If Frank Stone was some random person doing a podcast out of his bedroom, we wouldn't care. But not only has Anna anointed him and his podcast as the official podcast of Anna making him a voice of Anna, he threatened to violate Gabby's consent, which is absolutely appalling. His words matter. His actions matter. His lack of accountability matters. The lack of response from Anna, as you will see. Is even more concerning considering the things we have since learned about the man. Everyone up until now has known as Frank Stone,

Gabby 17:59

Paul Rain Reeves, the same person who found out what his name was, did some. More research, which led to even more clues about this man. Along with a way to verify that Frank Stone is in fact, Paul Wayne Reeves. What our listener told us is that there is a podcast called Dr. Paul's Family Talk, and if you take a quick listen to any episode of that podcast, the voice is the same voice of Frank Stone.

Dan 18:29

Oh, but the ties grow even stronger when you find the Dr. Paul episode where he interviewed Scott Klein of the New Nudist podcast. Paul Reeves recycled that interview and later played the exact same recording on Naked Nudist and Natures with the thanks. Paul comment from Scott edited out,

Gabby 18:48

Frank Stone and Paul Res are the same person, and it's pretty clear because I've met him on Zoom. It is the same exact person. Okay,

Dan 18:58

so now if you look at any podcast platform for the Dr. Paul Family Talk podcast, there's a photo there of Paul. And Gabby and I both instantly recognized him. So if you look closely at the photo on his Dr. Paul podcast, he's holding a book and the book is titled A Principles, family Principles. And this book published in 2015, was written by none other than Paul W. Reeves. And take note of the year, 'cause that's gonna be important later. So then it was easy to find out who the publisher of the book was, and that is Outskirt Press. And on the profile there of Dr. Paul Reeve. It talks about him being an educator in the Midwest for 30 years.

Gabby 19:39

So wait, are you saying his claim of having a career in radio is false?

Dan 19:45

Yeah, as far as we can tell, he never actually had a job in any real radio station, but there is more to that part of the story we'll come back to. But yeah, Paul Reeves real career was as a teacher and his doctor title is in education. Okay, now on that page is an ironic comment about the book, which says, quote, how do we raise our kids to be successful and happy while keeping them away from peer pressure and the nefarious characters who populate our society? The same nefarious characters who would love to mentor your children towards alternative lifestyles that are far different than your own morals and beliefs,

Gabby 20:25

nefarious characters. The projection is strong with that one.

Dan 20:30

Yeah. Now, Gabby, you made an extremely important observation about Paul's behavior.

Gabby 20:36

Yeah. Anyone that behaves the way that Paul does, did not just start acting like this overnight. The kinds of offensive, rude, and out of touch behavior is of someone that has always behaved this way.

Dan 20:51

So we started to wonder if he acts this way now. Has his behavior gotten him into trouble in the past?

Gabby 21:00

Yeah. Spoil alert. It does.

Dan 21:02

One thing I need to say at this point, given everything we have found, you have to wonder how is it that this isn't enough for Anna to dissociate itself from Paul Reeves?

Gabby 21:12

So Dan and I went about trying to see where exactly Paul Reeves taught, and our friend Google brought us some instant and disturbing results.

Dan 21:23

Okay, so the first thing that I found. Is that Paul Wayne Reeves had jobs as a teacher, a principal, and eventually a superintendent in the Michigan public school system, and he worked at a number of different schools there. But the reason his name comes up in the news reports are not good ones.

Gabby 21:39

Michigan Live article from September 15th, 2009 titled Former Mount Clemens, principal Accused of Sexual Harassment Asking Opinion on Porn.

Dan 21:52

Okay, before we go any further, you might ask as we did, how do we know this is the very same Paul Wayne Reeves we were talking about.

Gabby 21:59

Many of the articles include a photo of Paul Wayne Reeves. So yeah, it's him. So Dan, what does this article say?

Dan 22:07

A former counselor at Mount Clemens Middle School says, then Principal Paul Reeves repeatedly asked her opinion of pornography tapes and extramarital affairs. Reeves is no longer with the district. He is now superintendent of East Jackson Community Schools, the Macomb Daily Reports. Ariel of Harrison Township has filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against Reeves in Macomb County Circuit Court. Mu alleges that Reeves displayed bizarre behavior aimed at starting an intimate relationship with her after she denied his advances. Musin says she was given a negative review and given additional job duties. She said she had filed a sexual harassment complaint with the district in December of 2007, but was told there wasn't enough evidence to conclude harassment.

Gabby 22:57

Adding yet another article on Michigan Live, there are even more. Details about Reeve's behavior.

Dan 23:06

Almost immediately after MU began her job, Reeves started making advancements that over time indicated a strange romantic obsessiveness. The lawsuit alleges he called her a special friend, phoned her on weekends and in the summer, and whispered inappropriate comments about her clothing. The lawsuit claims he repeatedly referred to an alleged rumor that he and Musin were having an affair. And tried desperately to engage her in conversation about affairs. The court documents allege Musin resisted his efforts, and in April, 2007, she received a negative review and additional job duties. According to the lawsuit, he started to lash back. MU's lawyer said she was placed in September, 2007 in a tiny windowless office that was essentially a closet. The lawsuit says. Okay.

Gabby 23:55

In 2011, Reeves settled the case and both he and Ariel Musen are bound by a confidentiality agreement, which as I understand it, if Paul Reeves talks about the case, he is violating that agreement. We are not lawyers here, but this puts him in a difficult position. No. Yeah.

Dan 24:13

I mean, you know, from what I understand. If he talks about this, then the agreement might be void and even more details could come out, but you know, again, we're not lawyers. We don't really know this for sure.

Gabby 24:24

Yeah. Okay. So as if this wasn't enough, there is even more. Paul Rees was involved in two more lawsuits while he worked in the public school system.

Dan 24:35

Right. So the first one to talk about sounds more like a general labor dispute but what is of interest here is that the allegation is that Reeves as principal defamed a teacher, gave her a bad review and got her terminated. There were no allegations of sexual harassment here, but the court papers do make it clear that Reeves' review wasn't entirely accurate.

Gabby 24:58

In the fall of 1995, Barbara Main zinger began working as a teacher for the Riverview Community School District, where Paul Rays was the principal. Within the same year, he started to give main, zinger bad reviews, including in March of 1999 where he recommended her termination, which happened June 11th, 1999.

Dan 25:23

The lawsuit filed by main zinger alleged defamation and injurious falsehood, and that is what led to her termination. Now, the court ruled in favor of Reeves and the school, but the ruling was based on not following the process for handling such complaints, not on the merits of the allegation of defamation. But the court did make a very interesting observation.

Gabby 26:53

The court said, quote, several persons expressed positive opinions regarding plaintiff's teaching ability, but none of these individuals formally observed plaintiff in the classroom. The fact that their opinions contrasted with Reeves does not support a finding of malice. Also, while the videotaped observation of plaintiff's classroom on March 11th, 1999 contradicted some of Reeve's negative statements in March 12th, 1999, evaluation many of his comments regarding student management referred to Reeve's observation of plaintiff's classroom on March 11th, 1999. Further. The video tape supported some of reeve's statements, unquote.

Dan 27:39

Okay. So the reason this case is important is that there is yet another case from the 1995 to 1996 school year in which Reeves using the teacher's union, sued the school system due to him being demoted. The teacher's union was asserting that Reeve's demotion was inappropriate and sought letters from students, parents, and teachers that were used in the negative performance reviews and demotion of Reeves. Now, the school system sought to withhold that correspondence, claiming that they were not used in the decision to demote him. However, the court disagreed with that assertion further, one reason the teacher's union was interested in those letters. Was the concern over yet another sexual harassment claim?

Gabby 28:26

The report from the State of Michigan Employment Relations Commission. It says, quote letters sought by the union pertain to an investigation into allegations of sexual harassment by Reeves against a fellow staff member at the Bentley Elementary School, unquote. In its refusal to provide the letters, the school district said it did so only in connection with the issue of protecting staff members at the Bentley Elementary School from retaliation by the union. Further, the school went on to assert that employees at the Bentley Elementary School were so overwrought by Reeves that they asked the school district to call in a mediator to remedy the situation.

Dan 29:11

Okay, what we are seeing here is an obvious pattern of behavior. To be fair. Reeves was not convicted of sexual harassment or expressly terminated from any job for those claims, but we do see patterns of behavior that continue to this very day. In the end, the school system bought out Reeves' contract and effectively ended his career in education in June of 2011, a year earlier than it was supposed to End. Reports say that Reeves went on to work at a flooring store, but we have not confirmed this. But we did see that not only did he write the book, we noted before that was published in two, in 2015, he also created a podcast company.

Gabby 29:52

Yeah, it's called Impact Radio, and it's not a radio station or a radio company. It is a podcast company that primarily consists of him doing a variety of podcasts. Looking at the list of podcasts, it looks like he tried to appeal to various groups, but the only one that seemed to have lasted is the Dr. Paul Family Talk podcast,

Dan 30:14

and shortly after that, he and his wife, Deborah Jean, retired to Florida. Now, we don't know this for sure, but we suspect that Lisa Monroe is actually his wife, Deborah. Now one listener pointed us to a podcast episode where Frank admitted as much. Now, while all this information is easy to find and on the public record, we are sharing this for journalistic purposes, and we encourage our listeners to not reach out to any of the individuals named in this episode. And to that end. We compiled all of our findings with references to news articles, court documents, company records, and more, and submitted them to Anna as a formal complaint.

Gabby 30:52

We sent this to president Linda Weber, executive director Eric Shutoff. And all of the regional and or presidents, everybody knows everybody at Anna knows. And in this formal complaint, we specifically ask that Anna stand up for its own values, dissociate itself publicly with the Naked nudist and Nature's podcast, and permanently revoke Paul Reeve's membership in Anna. Due in large part to his inappropriate behavior, his threat to violate consent and for using a fake name while registering with Anna.

Dan 31:30

And we do wanna point out that by allowing anyone to register as a member with a fake name, Anner is not ensuring that clubs and other members can trust Anner with their safety. And I also wanna remind our listeners that every Anner club and affiliated group and business can log in to AN'S membership site and do a lookup for themselves. Now, how do you think any club would respond when a guest or prospective member shows up with an enter ID that does not match the name on that person's driver's license?

Gabby 31:59

Anna, it's time to stand up For nature's values, it's time to remind the world that we can trust that when faced with those nefarious actors that seek to tarnish the good reputation of nature, that Anna will stand up for us and do the right thing

Dan 32:17

in the show notes. We're including a link to the formal complaint we have sent to Anna. We're also including a list of all the email addresses for the various people in Anna that we sent the complaint to. We ask that if, after listening to this episode and reading the complaint, if you are as outraged as we are about the situation, we ask that you email those at Anna and let them know how you feel, and that you expect them to stand up for naturalism too and stand up for their own values.

Gabby 32:47

Okay. TMV Tribe, thank you for listening. That is part two of the Truth begins here In part three, we have a lot more to share in terms of like our thoughts and opinions, call to actions. It's not about taking down Anna, it's about showing Anna that there is another way to handle this, there's no reason why this man needs to continue to be the spokesperson of Anna. The ball is in their court. From what we have, heard. This isn't the first time Anna has heard of this. Are some people who have reached out to us that said that they have complained about this very thing to Anna when they found out.

Dan 33:30

Yeah, I mean, this isn't the first time the complaints have gone to Anna.

33:33

Right.

Gabby 33:33

I think it's a lot has to do with the fragmented communication within Anna and that's how some people are able to continue, getting away with things because not everybody at Anna knows I can't. Fathom the idea that everyone at NER wants to protect this guy. There's no way. There's no way that everyone at NER wants to protect this guy. And that is the problem with fragmented communication within an organization. Everybody gets different messaging, different stories, and then people end up not making informed decisions. This is a problem.

Dan 34:14

Yeah. So thank you. Tribe for helping us speak up for standards. On our next episode, part three of the Truth begins here. We're gonna go into more details. We're gonna have additional information that we're sure is gonna come out after this episode airs. Mm-hmm. And we'll let you know about anything we hear back from Anna. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If at all.

Gabby 34:35

With that being said, all links are gonna be available in the show notes, so if you wanna refer back to anything, um, they'll be available for you. But as always, folks, stay ethical, stay kind, and stay comfortably nude,

Dan 34:50

and that is the natures vibe.

Gabby 34:53

Bye.