The Truth Begins Here Part 3

In this final episode of The Truth Begins here Gabby and Dan talk about a couple of things that have happened since part 2 came out, and address some of the feedback that they have heard.

While this is the last episode in the series, its not the end of the story.  If more comes out they will talk about it, but for now it is time to turn our attention to the positive side of naturism.

• Why I walked away from AANR and AANR West by Dustin Cox
• Original sin by Timothy Sargent
• The complaint Gabby and Dan sent to AANR, including a PDF that includes links, documents, court papers, etc. 

Transcript

Dan 0:01

We just heard that Chuck Norris died and he was 86. Most of the movies and shows that he was part of were things that were predominantly of my generation, but he is also an example of someone who many generations are aware of. Yeah,

Gabby 0:16

indeed. I know him from shows like Walker, Texas Ranger, and the many jokes about how Chuck Norris is able to conquer anything

Dan 0:28

including death. Right? I heard that he actually had died like 20 years ago, but death was afraid to tell him.

Gabby 0:35

Pretty funny, but I gotta say RAP, Chuck Norris,

Dan 0:41

and here's why we bring this up. The idea of Chuck Norris is something that spans generations. We all can understand and appreciate his contribution to society, but there are many things that we don't understand.

Gabby 0:54

So part of what we are trying to do with this podcast is to help bridge the gap of understanding,

Dan 1:04

and language is an important part of this. Understanding that the words and behavior we use matter. So when we talk about how to connect to young adults and diverse people, we need to take the time to reflect on how we respond. Welcome back to The Nature's Vibe. I'm Dan, maker of Things,

Gabby 1:55

and I'm Gabby the Crown Nudie. It's been a refrain for many years that Nature's Clubs know they need to attract younger and more diverse people,

Dan 2:07

and a big problem we all face is not realizing that there are differences in the way we communicate.

Gabby 2:12

In part two of the Truth begins here, the cold open talked about accountability, and one of the things we noticed after that episode dropped was that there were many people who really didn't understand what that was about.

Dan 2:30

if you miss the point of that. I'm sorry. So I'll expand a bit. Have you ever felt that you were not heard? Have you ever felt that your concerns were ignored? I mean, many of those feelings are understandable when you take a hard look at the language that people use. When someone says something like, I'm sorry you were offended. That phrase is clearly not an apology.

Gabby 2:53

When I hear that, it tells me the person is not taking me seriously. They are just trying to sound like they care, but it is clear they don't. Such a comment shows no empathy.

Dan 3:09

And another example of this is some people don't understand what it means to be patronizing. Someone who makes a patronizing remark may think that they are legitimately being helpful, but you're not. Someone online recently was complaining about having to listen to yet another podcast and asked for a summary of what's going on, so. I tried to give them a short answer and they replied, see, you can do it.

Gabby 3:34

And that is a textbook example of being patronizing and condescending.

Dan 3:41

Yeah. So while you think you're trying to help, you're actually being rather offensive. People need to be more self-aware of how what they say affects the people who hear them

Gabby 3:52

facts.

Dan 3:54

So on this episode, we're going to update the tribe on things that have happened since part two came out,

Gabby 4:00

and we got a lot of feedback and questions. So we will answer some of those

Dan 4:06

and then we have a special announcement we're both excited for, and we're gonna tell you all about it at the end of this episode.

Gabby 4:13

And now part three, the truth begins here.

Dan 4:30

Okay, Gabby. A few things have happened since part two came out that we want to update the tribe on.

Gabby 4:34

Right. So other than us hearing that there is a person who is formally reviewing our complaint, there has been no other public or direct word from anyone at Anner about the status of the NNN podcast or its host.

Dan 4:53

But there are two things that have happened. First is that the official podcast designation has disappeared from the NNN website and even in the language of the podcast itself. A listener brought this to our attention last week, so. The outward appearance is that Anna and NNN have parted ways on that aspect of their relationship,

Gabby 5:11

and that is significant. It means at the very least, someone is paying attention and at least taken some action, even if they have not been public about it. But something else just happened, which is also pretty significant.

Dan 5:28

Yeah. Um, just this weekend, Dustin Cox published an article on his substack titled Why I walked away from Ner and Anna West. This is his reason for resigning from his role at ner. We'll leave a link in the show notes so you can read it for yourself

Gabby 5:44

Now he does make a number of points that are worth reading for yourself, But one thing he is very clearly being vocal about is the lack of leadership and transparency when it comes to this whole ordeal with the NNN Podcast.

Dan 6:05

So he makes a few key points, and the first is important for everyone to hear clearly. He says, quote, let me be specific, because vague accusations are not fair to anyone, including the organization. Okay.

Gabby 6:18

This idea of vague accusations is one we will come back to. Dan. What exactly did Dustin say was his reason for resigning?

Dan 6:34

He said, quote, what made my continued involvement impossible was Ann's failure to take immediate action to remove the NNN Podcast as the official podcast of the organization once problems came to light. Tied directly to that was an even more damning revelation. Anner had never conducted even the most basic background vetting of the podcast host in the first place. This is the kind of due diligence that any responsible organization should treat as non-negotiable, especially in a community that takes member safety and trust as seriously as the nature's community claims to.

Gabby 7:11

This idea of safety is a big reason why we are so vocal about things that can affect naturalism. Dustin makes that point quite well as he talks about an idea from the nonprofit governance experts at Board Source.

Dan 7:30

Yeah. Dustin writes, board accountability to members is not optional. It is the foundational contract between a volunteer member organization. And the people who fund and sustain it. when that contract is broken and leadership refuses to answer for it, the organization begins to rot from the inside.

Gabby 7:49

It's pretty alarming to hear from someone who was on the inside of Anna about the issues they are having.

Dan 7:58

Yeah, I mean, go read Dustin's entire story. He does a much better job of explaining all of this. Which leads us to our next segment on some of the feedback that we have gotten

Gabby 8:59

after the truth begins here. Part two, we got a lot of questions and feedback, and some was purely dismissive, trolling, and some was helpful criticism and some were legit questions.

Dan 9:16

Okay, so let's get some of the pure trolling outta the way first. Which also proves one of our points on why younger and diverse people feel unheard and dismissed. The trolling seems to come mainly from people who are older white men.

Gabby 9:30

There were several people who said things like, out of all the one 70 something episodes, you picked the one offhand remark to make a big deal of,

Dan 9:42

I mean, let's be clear here. This didn't start with a body shaming, dehumanizing remark. For us, this started with a threat to violate Gabby's consent. So to those that claim, we were acting on a rumor. This is a real thing. I mean, we published the emails, you can go read them

Gabby 9:59

and talking about being dismissive. It's clear that anyone who says this was based on a rumor or that Frank's remarks in episode 92 is an offhand one. You are clearly not paying attention.

Dan 10:14

I mean, seriously, we addressed all of this in the complaint. So if you're saying things like that, it tells me you haven't actually taken the time to read the complaint for yourself and understand. So please go read it. It could be rather enlightening.

Gabby 10:26

So the next comment we saw several versions of was, why did you do this in public? This is the kind of thing you should be talking directly to Anna about.

Dan 10:38

Yeah, so we did try that route. I mean, if you read the complaint, we detail exactly how and when we tried that approach. And I even sent Linda another email right after the public exchange on Reddit offering yet another hand in helping to repair things

Gabby 10:52

More than a week passed, and we had still heard nothing. So we wrote and submitted the complaint to Anna Leadership a couple more days after with no response, we decided to publish the complaint and release part two of our podcast.

Dan 11:10

So even then, it was still two more days before we finally heard back from someone that was going to take a serious look at what we had sent.

Gabby 11:17

So we did try to stay quiet. And take the private route and to those that claim, this is causing a split in the community. You're right. You really should voice your concerns to Anna and ask them why they let things get to this point.

Dan 11:36

I mean, if anything, the entire story proves Dustin's point. Again, you should go read his article.

Gabby 11:43

Another idea we saw is that people were trying to explain away Frank's comments saying things like, oh, that was an offhand remark, or even trying to claim he didn't mean to say that People who are plus size should be denied body positivity.

Dan 12:02

The term for people like that is being an apologist. If you are trying to explain away someone else's behavior or even trying to minimize the impact of their words, you're trying to apologize on their behalf.

Gabby 12:15

you may think you are helping by trying to explain your own perception of what the person said. But when it comes down to it, Paul's words are out there for anyone to listen to.

Dan 12:30

So here's an important point. Paul has a podcast. He puts out two a week, one recorded a couple months in advance, and the other recorded a couple days before it airs. He also has a newsletter he puts out from time to time. In short, he can speak for himself. If he really didn't mean to deny someone's body positivity or didn't realize he was dehumanizing a black woman, he could say So alternatively, if he believes the things he was saying, that he truly feels that people he body shames should be denied body positivity. Well, he can say that too. So if you're trying to excuse his words and behavior stop instead, insist that he do that himself. He has plenty of time and opportunity to speak for himself. He really doesn't need your help.

Gabby 13:17

now we get into more substantial feedback. There were some genuine concerns in the responses, and this next one is one that we agree is a serious issue,

Dan 13:31

right? And to be clear, we've done an extreme amount of research on issues like this. We really wanna be sure that when we release information, it's backed up by the research, which is also from a transparency perspective, why we included all of that in the complaint for everyone to read.

Gabby 13:46

So the big question here has to do with how we found out that Frank Stone was a false name.

Dan 13:54

So the concern that people have is that someone broke the rules about sharing private member data outside of ner. So naturally people are concerned about the privacy of their own personal information.

Gabby 14:05

This is a real concern, especially now that there is talk of doing background checks on direct and our members. If Anna couldn't keep information about Frank Stone's membership private, can we trust them with our data?

Dan 14:21

that's a good question to ask Anna, but we do need to make a couple of extremely important points on this first, and does have a strong confidentiality agreement to protect membership information. Second, and here's a key point. Confidentiality agreements. Do not protect acts of fraud.

Gabby 14:40

Anna is a 5 0 1 3 C nonprofit organization run by an elected board. Members of Anna are entitled to see the by. Minutes and other governing documents, all of which is available for members to read on the Anna member portal,

Dan 15:05

and we consulted that material a lot. In fact, here is where I'm going to give Linda some extra credit. A little over a year ago at the 2025 midwinter meeting, Linda introduced the confidentiality agreement that Anna staff and volunteers with access to member data must agree to. This new agreement was introduced because the bylaws are a bit ambiguous when it comes to member privacy.

Gabby 15:28

Yeah. The section in the bylaws that refers to this data is part of the membership management section and could be read as applying only to Anna staff. It did not explicitly cover anyone else with access to member data,

Dan 15:47

so Linda rightly saw that gap and addressed it. Now, I was aware of that gap as I had been a club representative of member access in the past, and in those days there was no con extra confidentiality clause. even though such an agreement did not exist, we still considered it private data.

Gabby 16:03

So while today they do have the confidentiality agreement and they are asking new clubs to sign it, they still have yet to add the agreement itself to the member site. So in terms of what the guidelines actually are as members, we are not able to see it.

Dan 16:24

Okay. Now the final and critical point on this. When Linda introduced the new confidentiality agreement, she invoked the Uniform Trade Secrets Act as a basis for this. Her instinct on that is good, and it is a serious step. Members should consider this a great step to protect their privacy, but understand. But courts have also held that fraud is not protected by such agreements

Gabby 16:48

when a person registers as a member with the Anna using a false name. That is an act of fraud against Anna. And when someone with legitimate access to member information finds out that such an act of fraud has been committed, they have a responsibility to raise that with leadership

Dan 17:16

And out of respect for the individuals who confirmed this to us. will simply say that we know that there was a lack of action on that report. And as such, no rules or agreements were violated here. So I'll just say this part again. An act of fraud is not protected by privacy rules.

Gabby 17:34

Okay, Dan, some final questions. Do you think Anna? We'll make a public statement.

Dan 17:41

I don't think so. And if you read Timothy Sargent's article on planet nude called Original Sin, where he takes a step back and looks at American nudism from a distance, He makes a remarkable observation. He writes quote, much like the Unfreedom that Nudism promised to resolve, the defensive instincts forged in the early decades of American nudism have not disappeared. instead, they have hardened into the organizational structures and community culture that define today's nudist movement. The American Association for Nude Recreation's own framing of its purpose reflects this orientation, protecting nude recreation from political interference, defending its wholesomeness and respectability to skeptical publics, and preserving its own organizational structures. And institutional stability. Its language is careful managerial and defensive oriented towards safeguarding the right to exist rather than articulating a broader vision of what embodied freedom might become. what is absent is an expansive account of how nude recreation might contribute to rethinking gender, race, sexuality. Or communal life more broadly, the emphasis remains on protection and containment on freedom from

Gabby 19:03

that posture needs to change.

Dan 19:06

Yeah. So the next question, Gabby, do you think Paul will actually apologize for threatening you or to the nature's community for his body shaming and dehumanizing or even his not apology?

Gabby 19:18

While I hope that people can grow and learn how to take accountability, I really don't expect him to take any at this point. He should. Right? He could make a real step towards healing and fixing things.

Dan 19:34

Yeah, he could, but you know, it's a hard path to follow for someone used to the idea that you don't apologize.

Gabby 19:39

So Dan, is this the end of the story?

Dan 19:42

No, uh, there is more to come. We are sure, but it's the end of the series for now. If something else comes up, we will talk about it, but for now, we need to turn our attention to the positive side of naturalism

Gabby 19:54

and that is what we are going to talk about next.

Dan 20:08

Okay. One more quick thing. If you feel as we do that, Anna should be more responsive, be more transparent. Be more accountable to the members. Email them. Let them know how you feel. Speak up for standards.

Gabby 20:22

Okay, I agree 100%, but let's move from the drama into something way more fun. We have something amazing for everyone to know about.

Dan 20:34

By now, everyone should know about the new rave of naturalism, known as Newhouse on April 18th in Jersey City, New Jersey. There are still a few tickets left, so you still have time,

Gabby 20:44

get your tickets, But what you didn't know is that on April 9th at 8:00 PM there is going to be a live stream on the TNB Discord server featuring our DJs. Dancers who were performing that night and dancers from the video and those that are helping to make this the best event ever. And this live stream, what is it?

Dan 21:11

It's free.

Gabby 21:12

It's free. Anyone on any tier that join the Patreon can join because it's free. So free members don't fret. This one you can take part of, and we'll have more free events. because we never wanna ostracize anyone just because you didn't hand over any money. We want everyone to feel welcomed and really, truly part of the TNV tribe.

Dan 21:42

yeah. So if you wanna see in hear more about Newhouse, this is something you don't wanna miss

Gabby 21:47

To attend. All you need to do is join the free tier on our Patreon. You'll be sent an invite to our Discord server where you will be able to watch this very special event.

Dan 22:01

And for those that missed it, we did put out a teaser video for Newhouse, which you can watch on the free Patreon here. But wait, there's more.

Gabby 22:08

We are going to premiere the full video on our live stream because we only put out the short version.

Dan 22:16

Right.

Gabby 22:17

But the extended version will be on the day of the line stream with the DJs, with the, with the dancers. With us with people who are part of TNV. We got Rachel, the creator, jumping on the live stream as well. This is going to be exciting. We get to meet everyone that's part of the TNV tribe and had also been part of this amazing event. It's gonna be. Mind blowing. It's amazing, right?

Dan 22:49

Yeah. So many thanks to everyone that's part of this, the ballet girl, Serena, I mean, everyone, for being part of the video.

Gabby 22:54

there's also Rachel in the Ballet. Girls. Thank you. Thank you so much. There's so if we forgot anybody. Uh, tell us. We will thank you again on the live stream. Like this is, this is gonna be amazing.

Dan 23:08

Yeah. So we'll talk a lot more about the making of the video and even show some of the behind the scenes footage.

Gabby 23:13

I can wait.

Dan 23:15

Yeah. So join us on our Discord server. This is going to be amazing.

Gabby 23:20

All right. And, um, as always, TMV tribe stay ethical, stay kind, and stay comfortably nude.

Dan 23:30

And that's. The natures vibe.

Gabby 23:32

Bye.