Bonus Episode: The Workshop #2

Last episode was a lot - let's take a quick behind-the-scenes break to discuss D&D combat mechanics, what to do when the dice want to tell a different story than you do, and the benefits of salmon sperm...?  

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The Mechanics Guild is written and played by Sarah Davis Reynolds, Carlina Parker, Attilio Rigotti, and Clay Westman. 

Music is by Clay Westman. 

Additional writing is by Taylor Fagins. 

Theme song is by Arcane Anthems. 

Editing is by Taylor Fagins, Attilio Rigotti, and Clay Westman. 

Album art and logo is by Dan Pindell. 

Character Illustrations are by LaserLazuli.

Produced by Ian Prince. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:49

Our fun little behind the scenes podcast recordings that we like to do sometimes when either we've been recording an assistant for a while or we've had something super crunchy that we want to talk about. Um these are just sort of our interstitual episodes that uh let us yap more than we already do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Um a good opportunity for us to figure out how often we want to actually do these because we're building this ship as we take it off. That's exciting. That's exploding.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

Uh we're building our uh great, great, keep that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Keep going, keep going. There we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

I got it, I got it.

SPEAKER_06 1:29

Um very exciting today. We are joined uh, in addition to uh Sarah, I'm your game master. We also have our players Atilio, Carlina, and Clay. But today we are also joined by Taylor Fagans, who is our lore keeper on Mechanics Guild. Uh, you don't get to hear his voice a lot, but he is always there taking so many amazing notes. We could not do this without Taylor. Strictly necessary. So strictly necessary.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Actually, you did hear Taylor's voice in the first episode.

SPEAKER_06 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Ah and uh the fourth, I thought it was.

SPEAKER_06 2:01

Second?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

In the fourth episode. Yeah. No, it's a song in the beginning.

SPEAKER_06 2:06

The song in the beginning, but also uh Taylor was the voice of Jax in the little exposition intro in episode, I think, yeah, four. Uh Taylor. So you've you've heard Taylor, you just didn't know it.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

How come you don't? You're not always doing Jax. I hope nothing bad ever happens to them.

SPEAKER_06 2:22

I hope nothing bad ever happens to Jax, even though we already know nothing.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Everybody, hands off my backstory. This backstory is tragic. Sorry, Sarah, I cut you off.

SPEAKER_06 2:32

No, no, no. Uh please do. Um, so we're very excited because we are specifically going to break down a lot of the mechanics that happened in this last episode that you just listened to, which was a very combat-heavy episode. And uh Taylor's insight into this is exceptional because uh we get so bogged down by the rules that we're trying to do and the scenes we're trying to play out. Um so very excited to have this full conversation with everybody. Um, so I just want to turn it over to everybody first. There's a couple exciting things about this episode. One is that it is sort of our first combat heavy episode. We did the maze, the first trial that had initiative order and had some checks and things like that. But this was our first real combat episode. It's also the first episode that we fully recorded uh remotely. So the first few episodes we were in person recording, and then Carlina went on tour uh with six.

SPEAKER_05 3:27

And COVID happened.

SPEAKER_06 3:29

And then COVID happened again. Uh crazy. Crazy. We're in a time capsule. And so uh we switched to remote recording. So I switched over to ever to all of y'all and say, um, how does it feel to both move from being in person at a table together and going remotely and specifically to do that during an episode that is so crunchy?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Personally, this feels so familiar because I mean, going back to COVID, I'm I doubt I'm the only person here who played a lot of DD during lockdown. So in some ways, this is more familiar than being in person. Now, when we were playing together, that's absolutely fantastic. You can look at everybody at the same time and you can have your asides. And one of the most strenuous things about playing any tabletop game over uh Zoom or any other like any recording software is the delay, the built-in, like no one everybody has to stop and listen, nobody can overlap, and the conversation can't happen organically or flow or anything like that. You all have to take turns. And uh that is something that someone uh who is uh addicted to interrupting like me uh really has a long adjustment period with. Um but when it comes to like recording this live, like or like when it comes to recording this show and playing this whole online setup is just easy at this point.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

It makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

I do find it to be a little uh difficult personally, just like it's already difficult to wait while people are taking their turns when you're like at a table together and you can kind of like feel the energy. Sometimes when you're just like taking your turn or like you're it's not your turn, you're on mute, you're kind of just sitting in a chair in a room um 17 states away. That can get a little that can feel a little disconnected, weird. Um, but I I you know obviously I think we all do a great job about it of like keeping everybody engaged and you know involved. So that's great.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

I don't know, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah, I think for me it's I feel like one of the advantages a tabletop sort of format has is the fact that you're playing around the table, right? On top of the table. And I think the moment we go into screens, I feel like, can we do it over a video game? Can't the computer do the math for us? And then we just, you know, and it feels like, oh, where can we just multiplayer RPG?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Sure. Um Are you saying like at a certain point, why not all just play like a video game instead of trying to do it like this?

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yeah, or like let's play like, you know, Divinity Original Sin or something like that. Like and we all like co-op, right? Which which is how do we uh not that it's not happening, but I think there's something about being around the table socializing and trying to tell a story. Like we're kind of like in a bar telling a story together, kind of how it feels.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Well, the hardest thing I think that is a transition from live to this is not having a table with miniatures and like pieces. So this kind of comes back to uh early on, most people when they're learning to play DD, it's like a bunch of their friends, their one person says, you know, I pulled the sorts the short straw, I will be the DM. Uh like let's just play, but we'll keep it low budget theater of the mind, keep it really easy and accessible. Playing theater of the mind is always the hardest way to play. There is nothing easier when you're trying to measure distances between two targets to make sure that you're uh fitting them within the range of a spell or trying to articulate like I'm hiding, that guy shouldn't be able to see me. Nothing makes that easier than a nothing makes that easier than a game board with pieces on it and a grid line, things very cleanly laid out.

SPEAKER_06 7:16

Yeah, I'm really glad that you mentioned that because that was actually something I was gonna bring up. Is the theater of the mind, specifically in relation to playing DD. Yeah, yeah. Because I think there are other systems that lend themselves to theater of the mind a little bit more where range is less important or uh sequencing, action economy is a little bit less important. Yeah. But Dungeons and Dragons is uh, I mean, it is a war game. It was created as a war game. That is how it started, and then the exploration and puzzles and everything was folded into it instead. But it started as a combat game, very tactile. A D D, Uthaco, like all of this stuff that was original to write. Um, and so translating that to theater of the mind, I think definitely has struggles. Um, because I was listening back to this episode and describing the space and saying, well, how far away am I from this thing? I would just default to saying, like, yeah, you're within 30 feet, because I know that's your movement speed, and I want you to get there because I want this to be interesting and exciting, and I don't want you to spend an entire round just dashing. Uh, because for a podcast for entertainment, that's not really that interesting. So as a DM, theater of the mind can be helpful because it allows me to sort of futz with uh where things are and distances, but that means it's a little bit not rules as written, in that if we were playing on a battle map with miniatures and you were 45 feet away from something and only had 30 feet of movement, your you know, turn is rushing up to it and doing nothing else.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

So because of the the very tactical roots of DD, smudging numbers is inherently a little like disingenuous to the heart of the thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:04

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, and I I try to avoid it as much as possible, but like the storyteller instinct in me says, oh, just fudge this a little. And then the staunch, you know, rules lawyer in me goes, no, no, you have in your brain what this battle map is, and you know that it's gonna take them more than 30 feet to get to the second floor over here.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Well, I think that's also uh a uh oh, what's the word for uh I think that's also a consolation you have to make when you're choosing to run Theater of the Mind. The more strict you are about placement of things, the more time you have to spend articulating very, very clearly, laboriously even, where things are positioned in reality. And the longer you spend trying to articulate that, the more someone like me is gonna totally zone out. And that's not fun either. That's not fair to anyone.

SPEAKER_06 9:56

I do I didn't count this of like how many times somebody asked, so how far away is this? I probably should have done a counter this.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Can I hit him with my stick?

SPEAKER_06 10:06

Am I close enough to hit him with my stick?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Yeah. Yeah, I think it it's interesting because I think, you know, I just had to get a class about TTRPGs the other day in my interactive theater class. And um it's interesting because the more theater of the mind you go, the more the rules are kind of established by the DM, right? And the more these are externalized, and the more the rules are there for all of us to mess with. And limit you also limit the DM, or the player can outsmart the DM, or the DM also has to improvise a little bit, I think, right? But like the magic of the dice and the position and all the stuff is that like you know, all best laid plans, and now you roll the two and you have to like figure it out, you know. Or somebody dash and you're like, wait, I know you, oh, you you you're gonna dash, great, right? But if things start, if everything moves to theater of the mind sort of world, then it's really Sarah was the main person keeping tabs of how the rules were being employed at any given point, right?

SPEAKER_06 11:01

Yes and no. Another point that I have actually is how, and I think this is because we're playing DD, which many of us are very familiar with, um, is how often we were helping each other out and clocking other things that people may have missed. Um, because we're familiar with the rules. I remember at one point, Clay, uh, Carlina, you did an attack, you did damage, and didn't include sneak attack. And so, Clay, you were like, Does that include your sneak attack damage? You're not playing a rogue, you but because it's DD and we just know so much of this.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Sure. Because it's a game we've been playing for a decade now.

SPEAKER_06 11:35

Right. Then we can we recognize, oh, this was a missed trigger, let's clock that. Um, and I'm curious, A, how we feel about that with this system, um, especially for folks who maybe aren't as familiar with it. And uh B, sub point is how is this going to change as we move into systems that we are less familiar with?

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah, I love I love a helping hand every time. I think it's great when someone else catches something that I've missed. And your point of how's that gonna change with our other systems? I think for me, I feel like it's not gonna change too much because I think Clay is always gonna make sure he knows the most of the rules.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I don't like that pressure being laid on me. I can't read everybody's character sheet.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Absolutely. Absolutely not pressure. It is only just that I think you will read the book the most times of the three of us, and that's not a dig. That is that in fact is kind of a safety net.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

That's fine.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

No one here would know who I'm talking to. We're all nerds. That's true. Fair.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

But but I think sorry, Cardin, were you done?

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Yeah, I can be done.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

No, no, you don't have to be done. I just was asking where if you were done. You might go away from your map. I don't know what to do. Uh I didn't know you're gonna be hungry for it. Ugh, Audi's gotta interrupt now. Uh shut up. I've been very well behaved. Um No, but I think what I was gonna uh it's interesting also because I think as we move to I think D is a system that is very proud of its rules and it's the enforcing of its rules. And I think as we move to other systems, those rules are going to be how can I explain it? Like I'm thinking of Call of Cthulhu, for example, right? Where there are rules, but the rule the main rule is like, yeah, but the main rule is you should always fail. And if you want somebody who wants to fail, you should just fail. And you're like, okay, but what if I'm like if the DM does if you all as a party decide you're gonna fail this rule, it doesn't matter if your stats matter or not. You know what I mean? Like there's a way, and there's a part where like the rules are like kind of there, but not really, right? Or the game is a little bit like loosey-goosey about them. D, I think, is particularly has created a really sophisticated system over revisions and revisions and revisions, and and people are very passionate about those rules, but I think as other ones get other ones are less about that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, it's a system that's been sorry, you go. No, please, you go. It's a system that's been around for long enough, like you said, to see every like it's a system that's been around for long enough to see every uh little hitch in the gide up that could appear, and then to make another rule in a new edition to address those things. And as a result, those tomes are thick. It is exhausting to try and like I could never imagine someone sit other than me, sitting down and trying to read the entirety of the player's handbook in one sitting. That would be absurd. But I meanwhile, I do do it to help me fall asleep. Um Taylor did it. Taylor also did it. That rules. But yes, absolutely. There are rules so that everybody new to it or familiar with it can point to it and say, no, no, no, this is how it works. And I think that's also part of the the heritage of the game. Uh the or the culture of the game. Again, circling back to what you said, Sarah, it comes from war games. It comes from uh 40K and all all those other strategic styles where it's important to know exactly what the developers had in mind. So you can point to that and say, uh-uh-uh-uh, this is what it says. We have to follow the rule. Meanwhile, other systems that we're going to get into are not nearly as dense. There's not nearly as many pages. And so there's inherently more wiggle room, more left up to the keeper, the facilitator, the the GM, whatever they're called, to just kind of make a soul read, make a make a gut check. Like, what do you think should happen?

SPEAKER_06 15:31

I don't know. Burning wheel is quite the tome.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Oh, never mind.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Except for Burning Wheel. Burning Wheel is But there are some of those that veer in the opposite, like reclaim, like there are some systems that feel like D has gone two role-playing and they want to reclaim it. Like I think of Morkborg, which is like very crunchy. Sure. Like Morkborg is like, we are here to crunch, and that's what we want, right? And you will see.

SPEAKER_06 15:52

Yeah, although it's also described as rules light, which is interesting. Yeah. Um, the Borg systems is rules light, but it's very like hyper-specific rules. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Yeah. Yeah. Morkborg will tell you what the hell to do for just the one thing Morkborg is there for. Everything else, you've played games before, you figure it out. Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

Yeah. I think it yeah, I think it's gonna be so interesting. Like finding like the true intention or like purpose of each gaming system. Because like playing DD, like what everyone wants is to feel like a hero. Like that's the feeling they want you to have is that you're an adventurer, you're a hero, you're like going on, you know, and obviously people murder hobo or whatever, but like the intention is that you feel like you're capable to do whatever that whatever you want. It's gonna be interesting to play things like Cthulhu, like you know, all these other little like games where maybe that's not the intention. And how do we make sure that our characters are still following their their through line and their narrative in these other worlds?

SPEAKER_06 16:49

Yeah, this leads into a big thing that I do want to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Oh no, Taylor Taylor raised his finger. Hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

I was gonna let it go. No, no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 16:58

We're not letting it go now.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Um, I was gonna say, uh just to add my little two cents, that I am interested in how the whole like helping each other out with the rules things shifts based on how new or old the system is that we play. Because I've noticed something just in that environment of systems that have been newly created versus systems that are a little bit older, is that I think as a society, we uh not to get too crazy big world, but as I think as a society we're craving more escapism, and so I think we lean more into storytelling and role play and less into rules and crunchiness just because of the kinds of stories people want to tell and the kinds of worlds people want to escape into to get out of the world. So I feel like newer stuff does end up being more rules light eventually, versus some older stuff is more like people want to test that out and they want to play those kinds of rules. So I think it'll be interesting to see how that shifts. Like y'all might end up playing a system that has barely any rules and then never helping each other because there's nothing to help with. Yeah, I roll for shoes, you know?

SPEAKER_06 18:09

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 18:10

So would anyone here like say that they're they play uh TTRPGs for the rules? Ooh. Not me.

SPEAKER_06 18:21

Interesting. Because I would say no, but this does lead to a big question that I want to have. So I'm gonna let everyone answer this, and then I want to move to a point.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

That's a great question. Do you play it for the rules?

SPEAKER_04 18:34

Like, is that where you find like the joy?

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah. I think I I think I play any game to hang out with my friends, but if if it's a if it's competitive or if there's like you know, if it feels like there are stakes, the rule the rules are a good thing to be able to hang your hat on. So that because it feels to me like it feels to me like the more you know your rules, the the wider, the larger your arsenal. The more you are aware of what can be done in a the more you're aware of what can be done in an encounter, uh the the easier it is to get out of it or to get the upper hand. I don't think I play for the rules, but I think that they are um I think that personally I am uh I am obsessed in all walks of life with system mastery. That's why I play fighting games, that's why I'm in uh ever addicted to Slay the Spire, and like I I love my deck builders and Magic the Gathering.

SPEAKER_04 19:35

Yeah, why you're better at Magic the Gathering than me, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Adi, are you mad at me for loving one of the games?

SPEAKER_03 19:41

No, but it just makes so much it just makes so much sense now. Slay the Spire, like you're probably like like uh wait, what game it was I fucking played recently. Oops, bleep that out. It's alright.

SPEAKER_06 19:54

We can fuck we can curse all the fuck we want.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

We can fuck if we need to. We can leave okay.

SPEAKER_06 20:03

Okay, so yeah, this this is.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Oh, it's Vision 33. What am I talking about? You probably have like the fucking all the pick toes and all the like everything to a T, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I'll neither confirm nor deny. Sarah?

SPEAKER_06 20:14

Uh yeah, this is great. Um so the one thing that I wanted to say, and thank you for that asking that question, Carlena, because it leads into it, is that um I I do want to talk about how the rules can help narratively. Because we were doing a lot of like, oh, well, sometimes we've heard narrative reasons, we have to fudge the rules a little. Um, but there's actually some instances where the rules help us tell the story um really strongly. And one thing that struck me in this last episode um was how rules helped me instill instill a sense of fear into y'all during this combat because of how low your health points are and how quickly this thing that you were fighting knocked players out in one go. And so that is a very mechanical thing. If we were not dealing with hit points, if we were not dealing with specific damage die, it would have been a lot harder for me to show those stakes of how intense this situation was that you were in and how potentially hopeless it was and the uphill battle that you had in this. If it's just you, you know, especially at the beginning of a DD session, like you said earlier, Carlena, as well, you want to feel like a hero. And a lot of times early level DD campaigns are about like go clear out the rats from the cellar. But being able to throw something at you that severely outmatches you at first helps set the stage for oh shit, we have to buckle down and or we're not getting out of this alive. Um, so while it wasn't necessarily an intention to knock out half the field. Field in one lair action, it was a great narrative tool for me that I was able to use the mechanics to have that happen.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

I mean, rules are imaginary obstructions we create as players in order to create fun dynamics, up to stakes, or like that's just where we like their imaginary things that we all agree we're going to do this in a way that's not supposed to be real. Like we're stepping outside of reality for a second, right? So yeah, I think that's when these sort of rules really excel. And when I get excited, when you're like, well, you sorry, there is no it over if you look at it from outside, it is a sucky game to have lost Carolina in like the first round, like almost, right? It just sucks. It's like if I was any other game, we'd be like, ah, let's just re-roll, let's do it again. Like, that's shitty, we can't do that, right? Yeah, but the fact that we can reload that save.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

You try to get it. Like, honestly, like it genuinely feels nothing feels more like combat timeout than when you go down in one hit. And as a player, sucks so bad. Sucks when you just have to sit there with your hands behind your back while you like let everyone else like do their best. But to your point, narratively, like once I got out of Carlina Brain and into Lavinia Brain, it was such an important moment that needed to happen for her to know what the stakes were. Because living a life of privilege, you never think that you think you're unstoppable. You think you are in like unbeatable. So to have it flip on a dime for her in that moment was was in fact a boon at that point. And like again, hate being a timeout, but loved the moment.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

But and then we justify it narratively, right? And that's so like we we have the obstruction, we have this mechanic obstruction, right? This rule obstruction, and now we have to justify it within the world narrative, right? And so I think Carlina, you're actually doing it really elegantly with Lavinia, right? Which is now you got knocked out, which means you're traumatized. I mean, like there has to be some consequence to that. If this was any game, it'd be like, ah, I got killed. Like if you play fire. Well, no, fire albums a bad example because people actually die in that game, right? But like if you were cast. Oh, you know, but but like, you know, where any game, if you die 10 times, the character's like, yeah, nothing happened. Like, I just died a lot, but I'm okay. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Which is actually that is one of my biggest issues with uh 5e, is that there, and maybe all, maybe most editions of DD work this way, but there's no consequence to going down if you pop back up. You can even take two death saves, and someone else can cast healing word, bonus action, boom, you're back up at 4 HP, and you are at your maximum like e efficacy as a fighter, just with four hit points compared to your maximum amount of hit points. That's that's something that I personally disagree with. Like, that's a rule that I don't think um justifies what would happen in reality if I came that close to death.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

But we love you, Whisper of the Coast. You're the best principles for us. Nobody here is employed.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

See, more I I think the suspension of disbelief here is that you come back because of magic, usually.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

So, you know, if you if it's not a smell insult situation, which it might be for some people, but usually in our game, it's like, oh, I cast a spell on you to bring you back from the brink of death, blah, blah, blah. Um, but I agree with you. I have actually seen tables of like, oh, you went unconscious in battle. You have to roll on this table. We'll see if you take like a mental, like, um, what am I, what's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_06 25:32

Like an injury or something.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

Yeah, yeah. A mental nerf, uh, uh, uh an injury, you know, down to like, oh, you lost a finger, like stuff like that. So it can there, there are like some homebrew situations where that can get like really nitty-gritty and kind of scary.

SPEAKER_06 25:47

I'd be curious what like coming back with a level of exhaustion would look like. Yeah, I've heard each time you go down. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Because that's also that goes away when you take a long rest. It's not like it's a permanent thing, but it it is a compelling enough mechanical reason to avoid that situation. Because like rules as written, uh, if we don't have exhaustion as a uh a consequence for going down and coming back up, mechanically, there's no benefit to me chugging a healing potion or being healed for like eight hit points if I'm at four and the next swing is gonna deal twelve. Like mathematically, I leave me at four and just save your bonus action to pop me back up, I'll be fine. But if you have that kind of consequence, assuming that your DM also makes adjustments and isn't throwing the same type of difficult combat at you, I think that's more compelling. And seeing that um and seeing that exhaustion number rise also has a oh really nerve-wracking feeling of like, oh god, I can't let this get to six or I'm just dead.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

We should really be rolling for concussion here.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Asking back to you, Sarah, which I find interesting, I've you know, I've heard you before in some play sessions or some experiences be like, oh well, I rolled this, but I'm gonna fudge it a little bit because of for the story, right? Do you feel uh how do you feel about that? I'm just thinking, isn't isn't the point the story we discover rather than the story we tell through this? Isn't the point where it's like, oh man, I guess I'm just gonna one hit you. Good luck. It's like, okay, but like for the story I should probably not do that. But or maybe you should, and then we just have to make up a story that justifies this. I'm just thinking, like, how what is that badass? Because if we commit to rules as written, right, then we have to rate our story as rules as written. But then sometimes we do want to fudge them. I don't know, like the balance is interesting to me, and I think people have different philosophies around it, right?

SPEAKER_06 27:43

I mean, that's it. It is a very dangerous conversation to go into, is should DM ever fudge dice rolls? Um people feel very strongly on either end of that. And I will not be giving my hot take uh on this at this moment because I don't want to get canceled. Um but I I also had a note about that of especially in a podcast setting where, and we talk about this. This is we'll be transparent about this with everybody. Of this is not just us sitting at our home table playing a game of DD because we want to for fun. We're telling a story. We are all writers, we are all storytellers, we are trained in narrative structure and game mechanics, and so we are building something with very specific blocks in place. Um, and we are doing it for entertainment purposes.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

And money, lots of money. Donate to our donate to our Patreon. And return some phone calls. Somebody sponsor us, please. Wild. You get to be friends with Taylor. That's that's not on the Patreon.

SPEAKER_06 28:45

And only Taylor.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

That's not on the Patreon.

SPEAKER_06 28:48

Um I did have a note about that. Of what happens when the dice say no? Yeah, you know, of like we have this idea. I mean, we'll go in writers' rooms, and obviously we don't script everything out because this is improvised and it is a role-playing game, but we do have you know rough structures of like, we have a feeling that this is where we're gonna go or how things are gonna play out. Or I'd really like to see what happens if if this goes on. Uh, and sometimes our storytelling instincts are correct, and the journey does take us down that way. And sometimes Attilio just keeps rolling ones and twos. Oh God.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Um you're gonna love this, guys. If you saw the episode, I just swang my my weapon to the mists over and over again. I again the greatest warrior of the studio.

SPEAKER_06 29:32

Could have been counting him while listening to that. I cannot believe how many ones and twos you rolled during that comment.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

I want to be clear that this is Carlina's dice. So I'm pretty sure. I gave them a gift from Carlita.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Your energy that you put into that. No, no, they're gonna save those together. Leave them out in the moon.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

You need to work on your receiving.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

And you know what it is. It's amazing. I have always had very good luck with dice. Yes. I think that across the board people know this about me. So if I gave you dice, they came to you with good luck.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

This is what you do. You get dice, you suck the luck out of them, and take it for yourself, and you give the unlucky dice around them. I've been lucky. You're like a luck vampire.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

Okay, great. You know what?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Wow, we should put that in the podcast somehow. We should make that a mechanic vampire.

SPEAKER_06 30:26

Uh yeah, but I mean, it's it's an interesting thing. Um uh Carlina knows this. Um, in when we were doing 20 Side Tavern, it was really important for us to have dice cameras to show that all of the rules are authentic and that we were not fudging anything. And sometimes they do not play nice with what you want to do. And we then have to narratively figure out how to move through a mechanic that said no. And I know for all of us, it is important that something happens. Um another thing that I'd mentioned that we talk about in this episode is that rules is written, nothing happens on a natural one. Uh, but narratively it should. Uh, if we are using mechanics as tools to tell a story, then they should tell a story of both success and failure. And so when there is failure, how do we narrate through that?

SPEAKER_03 31:26

With with sheer determination and creativity, and I mean, not everything progresses not necessarily forward, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:38

I think it's a well-known fact that failure breeds creativity. So while it's maybe not everyone's favorite thing, like it really makes you think outside the box and think outside of what you would usually go to to like um solve a puzzle to beat a bad guy. You have to like go around what you're comfortable with and be like, oh, that didn't work. Well, then what else do I have in my arsenal that might work? And I think that's really cool and that's really fun.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Absolutely agree. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Sometimes the dice telling their own story leads you down a unique path that you never would have thought of. That's looking back better than what you ever could have planned. I mean, you're collaborating with the system, right?

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Yeah. Atilio misses 17 uh swings of his sword. Somehow Klay is the hero of the story. Wow, look at that. Crazy story. Never would have been.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

And then we bombed it.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

It didn't. And then you bonded. It helped the two characters that had plenty of differences actually meld a lot of that a lot quicker than I think either of us as players were worried about. One thing I will say though is I I personally am a staunch believer in you don't need to make your uh natural ones into a critical failure. I I personally think that failing is enough, like the lack of success is enough of a failure. Mostly this may come from my experience with shout out to George Primavera as one of my OG DMs. Love you, big guy. Um but he used to run when we were in school really brutal campaigns. Uh it was it was, I'll not say adversarial because he's a good, solid dude. Um, but there is a risk of death in most of those games. And so when you rolled a one, it was the pfft, it's the the worst feeling in the world because he then said, okay, and he brought out a separate book with a z one through one hundred list that he had written that he rolled the D100 on to see how severe the fuck up was. And if it was like, you know, a one, uh, you stub your toe, take an extra point of damage. And if it was a hundred, you die. And that was also an interesting challenge for him to sometimes have to narratively figure out, okay, how do I justify this guy um failing his, I don't know, uh, attack role bad enough that it kills him. And that's his cup of tea. But I know as a player, that dread, that feeling of, oh God, how bad is this one gonna be? Is not why I play games. I play games because of the like Atelio. What's it? Call of Cthulhu, I love it!

SPEAKER_03 34:19

But that's also why you love Call of Cthulhu. I just think like death is part of it, like I think like this continue, like the story is not the story is a story and characters are part of the story. And then if they die, that's a fucking good story. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

You know, continue. And I absolutely so that is the that is the other uh that is the other opinion. That is the other uh uh option elephant in the room is like there are plenty of people that are like, no, that's just you you trust it and you know don't get too attached. I I think I personally take D so personally. Let me say that again. I think for whatever reason, I take DD so personally. And what I mean by that is because I tend to know so many of the rules, and at some at some tables more rules than anybody else, I feel like it is my responsibility. At most tables. At most tables at many tables, at some tables. I feel like it is my responsibility to shepherd in newer players and keep them protected. And there's also been this is a whole other can of worms. I've been I've been playing with plenty of predatory DMs who are just there for a power trip. Anybody who's played in the space a little bit knows what I'm talking about. We don't have to get into it. But there's there's a an inherent then part of me that's like, I need to protect these people. So my goal always, when I'm playing DD specifically, is uh let me play a support class that will manage to keep everybody alive. So I take it as something of a personal failure if that happens, outside of um instances where a player goes to the DM and says, Hey, I think my character's arc should end in their death. I think this would be really satisfying if like at the final encounter with Strahd, it's like it's all he's ever lived for for forever, and he dies, but it's uh you know, so does Strahd, etc. Like, go for that. I I love that narrative completion. It's also like I I'm so in favor of that. That's also why I adore Ten Candles.

SPEAKER_06 36:25

I was gonna say that.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah, did you? But the flip side of things, like instead of the feeling the pressure of keeping everybody alive, Ten Candles is a game where you start playing and you know everybody's going to die. By the end of that session, you will all die. And so and that's similar to Call of Cthulhu, I think. So you can then dedicate your efforts toward telling the most meaningful story. And that is so freeing. I feel uh such a weight lifted from my shoulders. See, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

No, I love that. I love that that's frees you. If I knew when I started a game that I was 100% gonna die, I feel like I would feel so much more vulnerable. But I think it's so it's also so interesting for Atilio for both of you to say, even if you die, that's part of the story. I wonder if it's because to you guys, like the tale you weave is your story. To me, each character is their story. So for you, the like story gets to like have like a nice little like book end on it. It's gorgeous, it's put away. To me, a character death kind of means like the story ends before you get to find out what happened next.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Oh, that's interesting. I find like the my character is one thread in the great tapestry of the story.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Yes. Yes, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah. I I also think that's interesting because I think it's I think it speaks a little bit to I I w I I don't want to therapise, but I I think it is very sorry, I'm not gonna do this. But I do think I do think how you feel about character death probably says a little bit something about how you feel like real life. Because in real life everybody's gonna be. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. My mom's a funeral director, this is my child. But anyway. We talked about that, right? My wife is also a funeral director.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Let's bring her Sarah, come in here.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

But no, that's like I think when it comes to playing a character, it's very like it it really puts up like how do you reckon with your character might actually not live through this story? And how important is your character's part in this story, you know?

SPEAKER_04 38:35

Yeah, I wonder if it also has something to do with like what I do for a living, which is I tell the same story over and over again. I play the same characters over and over again. Like the story continues to live on. Yeah, like I don't and like sometimes I like leave something on a shelf, but like the I know the story's still getting told somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

We're gonna sing it again. You know what I mean? Exactly. Don't make my guy.

SPEAKER_06 38:58

Uh there's a couple specific crunchy things that I wanna uh touch on before we run out of time today, um, of things that did happen in this episode. And I wanna I wanna recognize them uh and also talk about how it's it's difficult. Even in a game that we know really, really well, sometimes we miss things. Um but before that, there's one other narrative versus mechanical thing that I want to discuss, which is uh the way that we handled initiative uh very quickly because both Darius and Argo tied. And typically the way in initiative in DD, the way that a tie is broken is whoever has the higher dexterity modifier goes first. Darius and Argo have the same dexterity modifier. Uh, and so we uh had a joke about you know kissing going first or last or whatever. But actually, what we ended up landing on was Clay, you had a really smart move of saying Darius has been vigilant since he's been in this place. Argo was doing something else, and so narratively it made sense for Darius to go first because that would make sense for that warrior to hop into action a little faster than this kid. So even though the mechanics you could rock paper scissors to decide who goes first, because rules as written, there was no determination between those two. And so in that moment, we you did have the instinct to turn to narrative. And Atelio, you were ready to rock paper scissors. So you had the instinct to rely on mechanics. And I thought that was a fascinating moment of how do we resolve things mechanically or narratively. And I don't think there's a right answer. I think it's just a very fascinating exploration in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

That is really fascinating. That that's also a good thing to bring up because I'm not sure if that interaction made its way all the way into the episode. Might have glossed over initiative. Um But yeah, that is interesting. Because you could also argue then in favor of mechanics saying, like, hey, if if Adi's character, if if Darius is so focused on hypervigilance, I might give that guy an advantage on his initiative role. Um, that's something else I'd love to talk about either today or at some point in the future. But just the brilliance of advantage as a system mechanic, I just think is is stunning.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

Because sorry, just to put a little parentheses to your parentheses, because advantage is brilliant, because it's oh, whenever in doubt, just add another dice. Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, they're more prepared. They're more or they ate more food, or they slept more, or they're bigger.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

To come up with that.

SPEAKER_06 41:34

And I do want to dig into this right now, actually, because it it it gets into our conversation on mechanics versus narrative. Because as a DM, when do you give advantage?

SPEAKER_04 41:44

Oh you know, and this is why I love an inspiration die. And this I feel is such an underutilized mechanic in DD. 100% when you do something that is so like character, character-driven and character-based, a decision that like you might not have made as a person, but your character super would have, or something that just makes everybody laugh. I'm all for like rewarding the the player for making those big swings. And I think it's it takes it a little bit away from the DM to be like, oh well, this is something that I definitely want you to have advantage on. It's like, here, I'm gonna give you this, you use it when you want to, and it really just like incentivizes people to really be in the moment and be trying to like create those narrative moments together.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Absolutely a hundred thousand percent agree. Inspiration as a mechanical representation of uh inspiration as a mechanical reward for player. Is it it's not agency, what's the word that I want? For like following your narrative, right? Oh for roleplay. Yeah, commitment is good. Inspiration as a mechanical reward for roleplay commitment and like role play choices is a brilliant thing. The only tough part is remembering to give it out and remembering to use it. I can't tell you how many sessions I've had where that one sits in that little box and I just completely forget.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

We need to get gold stars. Like it literally feels like a gold star sticker and just like start putting them, putting them putting them on our foreheads when we get them. You're right.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

You're right. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

Perfect. I figured it out.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

I love it. No, I I'm glad that you brought up inspiration, Carlina, because just straight advantage, I feel like 70% of the time I just do it when it is narratively earned. Because that's when I remember it. Of like, and and this happens a couple times already in this arc is someone has said, Well, can I have advantage on this because you know my dad knows trade or this thing in my backstory or this narrative?

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Because I'm hot. Or because I'm hot, because I'm paying attention.

SPEAKER_06 44:00

Because I threw cups, whatever. Um it all of those have been because of a justification narratively. Can I have a mechanical boon here? But I do love the call out of inspiration that that it is a reward for narrative, but not in the moment. It's not I'm gonna have advantage on this role because my narrative makes sense for this role. It's a mechanical award reward that I can spend whenever based on something that happens.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

So uh wait, so what's sorry, what's inspiration?

SPEAKER_06 44:27

Is it like inspiration is that you get advantage, but it's that it's like a pocket advantage. You can use it on any role that you want.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Except for damage.

SPEAKER_06 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Um rolling this d20 for damage. Like rolling d20 values. But the OG question was like, what as a DM do you give advantage for? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Yeah. Like, is it mechanical or narrative? Yeah. Yeah, I think it is when you've earned it.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

When you've earned it. Right.

SPEAKER_06 44:57

And I try to fit other things into the system that do give it more mechanically of uh for this is a disadvantage example, um, when Liv had the wisdom thing from the maze where the next wisdom saving throw you were gonna have disadvantage because you had something else going on in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Um also I am so inspired by you for just remembering that you did that from one episode to another. Uh shocking to me as a person that you were able to remember that.

SPEAKER_06 45:27

I wonder if you're gonna be able to do that. I wonder if it was all supposed to happen. Great.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

I wonder if they like talked about it and planned. Taylor! Taylor, I love my job is taking notes.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Taylor, the keeper of the notes, consequences, and our hearts.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

I will say I do uh bold like every uh result of a role. So it is it is very fascinating to see what advantages are given and what are not. Um when we're gonna.

SPEAKER_06 45:58

Yeah, all the scats nerds out there. We have the results of every role that has been done. Taylor has logged them all, so they exist.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Y'all listening at home with your own home games. Gotta get yourself a tailor. Get yourself a tailor. I can only I can I this is the only way I can play now. Get yourself a lore keeper.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Get yourself a tailor selling at Walmart for $5.99. Um $5.90. Hey, it's the spring sale. Do you mean $600?

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Because that's still not enough.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

No, you're worth friends.

SPEAKER_06 46:33

No, you're worth.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Um I I find that sorry, I find that was interesting because um I had a student of mine listen to our podcast, uh, and they and they were very impressed by how much role-playing was in it. And I was like, oh, that's not what usual DD podcasts are. Like, I was like, oh no, it's a lot of role playing.

unknown 46:52

Acting.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

I love role. I love role play. Guys, do you put it just in my veins? It's my favorite thing. I love telling stories.

SPEAKER_06 47:00

You just have to remember to roll sometimes. Speaking of remembering, uh, a couple uh mechanical things that I want to call out of some things that we uh missed a little bit. And I want to mention them here so that uh all the keyboard warriors are not gonna yell at us.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Um if you're shouting at me on Reddit, it means you didn't listen to the BTS episode. Listen to the BTS episode, don't at me.

SPEAKER_06 47:22

But also thanks for giving us marketing on Reddit. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Uh any press is good press.

SPEAKER_06 47:28

All press is good press. Um we had a couple uh couple damaged eye that definitely were incorrect. Um, and I think we mostly clocked them. Taylor did a couple times in the chat, which was great and helpful. Um, we missed attacks of opportunity quite a lot. And that's a fascinating thing.

SPEAKER_04 47:47

That's another thing that's so hard with with theater of the mind to know who's leaving your vicinity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:53

Yeah. Um, and so for those uh if you don't know what an attack of opportunity is, when someone leaves your range of uh combat or you leave someone's range of combat uh within five feet, they can use their reaction to make an attack. Uh and so yeah, especially with theater of the mind, and as a DM who's controlling multiple things, I missed that. I missed that so much. Um and uh what was funny is there was one moment that we called it out a little bit late. We retroactively let it happen and it it hit and did a lot of damage, and fortunately didn't take the the enemy down, but I had a moment of if we had completely forgotten this moment, the entire battle would have changed. Um not in your favor. And so there are moments like that that is interesting of if we're honoring the rules, the mechanics to tell the story, sometimes it gotta be a little bit better about that of clocking that and how that domino effect happens.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 49:02

Um, and that also happened when we started critting. There was a crit that happened that like bouncing around between what the hit was and the damage and in what order and the like action economy. It was so uh me listening back, I was like, what happened? But I don't know what's going on in this whole crit.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Carlina crit.

SPEAKER_06 49:24

I think it was a Darius crit.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Yeah, that's impossible. That's impossible.

SPEAKER_06 49:29

No, you have like you have like a crit hit, and because you've been crit failing the whole time, I think you were like, I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Yeah, it was definitely didn't even take my dice out. You're a man of extremes, Audi. You're the most interesting man in the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I can't forget for that scene. That was great. Already.

SPEAKER_06 49:47

That was my biggest takeaway from a lot of this was you know, we talked about fudging dice rolls a little bit earlier, which it means that we are not being authentic to the mechanics and the storytelling. And I wonder how much missing triggers is on the same level of not being authentic to the mechanics telling the story.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

But would it uh I pose this as a question, not a No no no, but I I pose the question back, which is I pose the question back, which is in a non-computerized tabletop game, we're always gonna miss triggers, right? 100% is that part of the game?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Question mark? I don't know. I totally think so. And and just like it's it's a part of the game to like miss things, I think it is a part of the game to chime back in and go, oh wait, I should have, but you know, recount that.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

Yeah. Yes. I think I think my biggest takeaway and anytime I'm playing this game is that I don't want anyone to ever feel like there's a wrong way to play this game. And all of us, you know, talking about, oh, this, that, the other, what's like the best thing and like what's taking away? I think the bottom line is of course things are gonna change and maybe not be exactly how the book intended us to play it, but I, you know, I think that's all just casualties of the fun.

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Casualties of the fun is a great line. Because I think that's a fallout boy album, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Yeah, casualties one more time. A little bit of creed though. There's a little bit of creed.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Well, because we want to see people I think, sorry, I think to build off Carlina's remarkable I don't even know how to describe what this thing was. Um I sorry, I have this this this mook dysmusica, what it was that we discovered was dyslexia was dysmusia.

SPEAKER_04 51:39

Dysmusia. Dismusia.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

Dysmusia. Um, a point being that like I sorry. Would you say as an hypothetical, that watching somebody who's too good with the system is also boring? Yes. Don't you want to see people like struggle with it, struggle with the system a little bit? No, no, no, but I want them, like you want to do it. You want these people to be like, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Like it's like watching, it's like watching a uh if anybody plays Magic the Gathering. Like it's like watching a combo deck that just plays solitaire by itself. Horrible. You're just listening to someone monotonely like narrate, not even narrate, but just like, and then this happens and then that triggers this. It's just, yeah, it's boring. It's fun if you're like, uh, oh, and then the oh, that's right, oh, you get advantage because yeah, that is exciting.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Yeah. There's something very human to the discovery, to watching someone discover something, but also, and I I know most of us probably relate to this because most we basically all work in the arts in some capacity. Um, is like as a as a human being, when you watch a story or when you intake a story, like the in to the story is the person who knows the least amount of information. And so most people who actually intake like DD content or TTRPG content are watching the person who doesn't know what's going on. So it's like it's actually cooler and more relatable and more interesting and almost dare I say more enticing as uh as a piece of content, but also just as an experience, as something to be a part of when somebody doesn't know everything. Um yeah, I think it's actually most of the stuff that I listen to or watch when it comes to uh DD or TTRPG content. I'm paying attention to the person who doesn't know how the game works.

SPEAKER_06 53:28

Which is a great thing because we might know DD, but most of us don't know many other things, and we're about to move to other systems where we don't know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

I don't I don't really know DD. I know you rolled dice and like you had some numbers and like bing bing bang boom. That's all I got.

SPEAKER_04 53:45

That's all that's honestly kind of true. Kind of all, kind of all you do.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Yeah, I think you got it, Atilio. I have reduced 40 years of development, five additions to hey, you just roll around, you bing, bing, bang, boom, bing, bing, boom.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

I'm Atilio. I teach a class on game mechanics, game design.

SPEAKER_04 54:09

Still asks where his abilities are sometimes. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

You know. Me too. Me too. You inspire me.

SPEAKER_06 54:17

Hey, get inscraping. You can roll the band.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

It's just show that MFAs don't mean anything. Just put it on.

SPEAKER_06 54:24

Whenever you want to roll 2D twenty. I will need that cut.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

I will need I will need that cut from the other. I'm trying to get a job.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Put it on Instagram. No, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

I'm trying to get a job in the institution. Please.

SPEAKER_06 54:39

Uh cool. So I think we've hit a lot of stuff. Um, is there any last thoughts or queries that we want to hit while talking about specifically playing Dungeons and Dragons in a very combat-heavy episode? We'll do another like full breakdown of the system once we have finished an arc in it. Um, but anything else we want to hit today?

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Should we go through a basic flowchart of like what combat typically looks like? Because we covered a few mechanics like inspiration and things like that, but we didn't talk about like boom, initiative, turn order, actions, bonus actions, moves, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_06 55:14

Go for it.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Sarah, did you say something? I didn't hear it.

SPEAKER_06 55:19

No, I said sure.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

I it can't be it can't be me, so it has to be one of you.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

So, initiative, actions, bonus action, move action. Ta-da! That's we did it. The first thing that happens when combat starts usually is you roll initiative. What's initiative, Sarah?

SPEAKER_06 55:36

Uh, it's when you roll a d20 and add your initiative modifier.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

What's your initiative modifier?

SPEAKER_06 55:41

Dexterity modifier. Plus sometimes, sometimes an addition if you have fancy gear.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

The alert feat is great for that, kids. After you roll initiative, you have a spreadsheet that all so that's an important thing. Uh I love having someone at my table, like hiring one of my players to be the person in charge of managing initiative. That is a delightful little workaround. Um gives you less to think about as a DM. You have this like little spreadsheet of the order of operations after you have your turn order from rolling initiative. Uh on your turn, everybody gets an action, a move action, a bonus action, and a reaction. Reactions don't come up very much. Some classes use bonus actions for class specific things. Uh one little gripe I have, wizards don't really get a lot in the way of bonus actions. Um but I guess they do get the coolest spells in the entire game anyway, so I'll forgive it.

SPEAKER_06 56:35

And they get fine familiar.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

So fine familiar, yeah, exactly. I get a second turn. So that's fine. Um you get a move action, usually you get to move up to 30 feet. Uh each of the little spaces that you see on the grid are five foot squares, uh, helping you move around. Um you get to take an action, usually this means casting a spell, making an attack roll. All of those things come down to the same thing you did with your initiative, rolling a d20 and adding whatever modifiers you need to that in order to see if you hit or miss. But here's what's weird. If you hit for something like a uh a melee attack, you then roll another die. That die is dependent upon which weapon you're holding. Which weapon connects to which die is just a thing that you'll have to know. And I'm sorry, that sucks. Ask your DM.

SPEAKER_06 57:23

Never, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

At the end of the day, though, all the different weapons are just different sizes of die. Uh and then, yeah, that's pretty much everything. Oh, except for reactions. That's pretty much everything you can do on your turn, except for reactions. Reactions are usually taken off your turn to do things like circling back, make attack of opportunity. When somebody moves away from you uh and triggers an attack of opportunity, you can use a reaction for that or counter spell.

SPEAKER_06 57:50

Or silvery bells.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Counter spells, great reaction.

SPEAKER_04 57:54

Healish rebuke? Take two, take two, take two, take two.

SPEAKER_06 57:58

You mentioned that like not a lot of folks use reactions, but I feel like all of the characters I ever play are so reaction heavy. Um, which is one of your characters super bisexual, so I was gonna say that might be just a testament of who I am as a person. Uh sorry. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 58:15

It's a well-known fact. Can we leave that?

SPEAKER_06 58:18

People love to play tea blings. Queer people do love to play tea blings, but I have many of them.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

That does bring up a point of a very important mechanic we figured out in our combat thing, which I just want to make sure we're clear and bug, because I don't know if I am. Sometimes we went in straight or sometimes we went in gay.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

What was the difference? This is the most important part of the case.

SPEAKER_06 58:41

We called that homebrew rule.

unknown 58:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

I have whiplash from trying to make the connection to bisexual to using your reaction. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

And that's how you know Clay. I don't know how many tieflings you play. As much as that.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Zero, zero. And I'm really letting down my culture.

SPEAKER_04 59:06

Yeah, I was gonna say, who was the one who they weren't in the closet?

SPEAKER_01 59:10

I'm I'm playing a tiefling right now. I just I don't have uh hellish rebuke on him. I use the uh a different because there's a bunch of different like racial are they not called racial anymore? What are we calling them? Special. Species. Species. Special? Special species. There's a lot of different heritage like um tiefling options. So I don't think mine has hellish rebuke.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

Hey, you got a tiefling. That's all right. That's quota. Check it out.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

That's quota. Yep. There we go. I mean I met the code.

SPEAKER_06 59:35

Took you a while, but you know, it's okay. We all all in our own time.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yep, still in that closet.

SPEAKER_06 59:41

Yes, he came back.

SPEAKER_04 59:42

Basically in the closet. Um, I did have one question. Yeah. Um, and this is a little bit, and I know we're we're skirting around your opinion on fudging dice rolls. But when you planned this combat, did you have an outcome in mind when you made it? Or could this have gone a very different way? Obviously, I have opinions on it because I hit the floor really fast.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

So But I think that was great. I mean, it was great.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

No, it was all great. We all loved that. We all loved that that happened. I love those. But no, it it's it's always such an interesting um opinion of each DM, whether or not they plan their combat for success, or if they leave a door open for failure. And if there you have a narrative way of getting where you want to go in the story, either way.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:35

I love that question. Uh, I very much do not like to always have combats that are winnable via combat, because then it just turns your party into a group of murder hobos. If they think that they can win by attacking every time, then that's not interesting. So I do like to mix it up and have combats that you can negotiate your way out of, or that you need to just run because you are outclassed. Um, that is not what this was. This was a fairly simple um combat. The I did believe that you simple.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:07

Listen, it was one hitting, like I feel like you was like poo, poo, it was like straightforward.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:14

Yeah, it was straightforward.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:15

Uh oh, going straight. Got it.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:16

I yeah, we were going in straight. Okay. Uh it was gay forward.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:20

Um I love gay forward. That's nice. Uh maybe I'll be a little gay forward.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:25

Can't we all be a little? I mean, we are. Um Carlina shows her shirt that says I'm coming to the cottage.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:36

My heated rivalry shirt. Heated rivalry shirt.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:37

I am of the time. Anyways, going gay forward. Um, you I assumed that you would defeat the enemy. Um, I did not expect it to return one of your pledges. That was a an ability that it had, but I didn't like it it was not a strategy of take things down so that he can summon minions. It just happened, and I went, I'm gonna do this now. Um but I I expected you to be able to get to the end of combat. Um, because we are in our prologue arc, we know that all of these characters survive through the end of the trials, and we know the three of you, and we know that the three of you become mechanics. This is not a secret, this is not a spoiler, it is the first bit of episode one. And so that is really interesting as a DM planning combat encounters because I know you have to live, at least to some extent. If you do go down, you know, maybe the guild does revivify or whatever. But there is a little bit of because we are in a flashback, some of that attention is lost, and so when planning a combat, it has to be something you can win, but still is scary, or else why are we listening to it? Um I think that answers your question in terms of you were supposed to get through it, but many things that happened within it were spontaneous or uh reactionary based on what was going on. I did not expect to also get one of your pledges um down to zero hit points like permanently.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:28

Wow. Now who's the murder hobo?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:31

Who was it? Who was a murderer hobo?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

No, I love that. I think that is the best answer that we could have had. So it was great.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

Carlina, do you DM ever?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:47

I have.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:50

I am not good at it yet. I would love to be good at it because I think there would be something so I I think it would be like one of my most proud achievements. Because I think there's something beautiful about weaving a story that everyone at the table gets to enjoy. Um I just I think it's just so much more natural natural for me to be in one character and make decisions that way. And then the onus isn't on me to like make sure everyone else is having fun. I can kind of just like be who I am and be my silly self and just like live in a world. Yeah. Um, but I do, I'm, I would love to write. Surprise. I would love to write a musical theater campaign where like every arc in my campaign is a musical. I have written a Phantom of the Opera arc and run it for my family because everyone wanted to know what the fuck I do all the day, all day, you know? Um, and I want that to lead into a Hades Town arc. So we're working on that.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:48

Hell yeah, hell yeah. I want to play.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Carlina, there is, and this is a message to you as well as anyone else out there curious. There's only one way I know of to get better at DMing. I'm gonna vomit. Reading the books? Yep. Yeah, yeah, just read the books and you'll be better from front to back. Listen. All but not. I guess an improv class never hurts anybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

No, for real.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:15

I should I could take one of those at some point in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

Yeah. Some of us are just naturally gifted, like Carlita. I I personally, I've never run a single combat where I uh expected them to uh players to fail or had a plan for if everybody dies. Uh instead, like that stresses me out, the idea of like, oh shit, this is a TPK. Not to say that I don't run a few. I love a TPK. At the when the shit really hits the fan, like people can go down, people can absolutely die, but I I never really expect like if one of your party members goes down, my immediate first thought is like okay, we have to the survivors now have to find another way out of this. It's become pretty clear. That maybe we can't handle this unless they're so close to death that let's push on through it's what they would have wanted. And either one of those eventualities still end with some of the party members staying alive and me accidentally introducing a new ARC uh bad guy that they will hunt.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:17

I think that is the beauty of a tabletop role-playing game as opposed to a video game role-playing game, is the outcome of combat is infinite as opposed to something that has to be scripted in on Rails.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:32

I don't know. I I I I look forward to the the next podcast around AI and digital Dungeons and Dragons and where we're gonna get with this.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:42

I fear Yeah, we're not advertising AI on this podcast. Oh sorry even jokingly.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:50

Although if you want to sponsor us, we're so ready. I can totally just pop like I'll take I'll I I'm not taking open AI, but Claude anytime. I'll take Claude.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:01

I'll take Claude.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:05

Alright, any other last things that we want to hit?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

I'm excited to not know the rules as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:10

Yeah. One thing that I clocked in this last thing was so funny, Clay. You specifically were using meta-knowledge sometimes. You're like, oh, well, you said elemental, so I think it'll be this like resistant to this type of damage. Which was so it's always so fascinating when people do that because I, as a DM, very explicitly a lot of times will homebrew resistances and vulnerabilities to counteract that. Oh fuck. So I can't turn that off sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

I try to make a separation between player, like, can my character usually I'll ask like, can my character do something or roll something to know a thing that Clay knows?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:45

And I think Argo would, you know, like I think it wasn't out of character for Argo.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

But like also, why do you think I I exclusively play wizards and high intelligence characters? I I feel like I need something to justify the amount of time that I have knowing or the amount of time that I've spent learning systems.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

That's why I play talkie characters.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:07

We just talk.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

That's why I play characters with big sticks. So I can ask questions and know less. This is revealing so much.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:17

I just say a lot of words.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

God bless you.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:23

Uh okay. I think that is it for this workshop. Uh, like I said, we'll have uh uh aftercare episode where we go through and debrief what it is like playing in this system, which I think will be really interesting given that it is a system all of us have played quite a lot in. Um but we are getting close to the end of this arc. Exciting.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:43

Very, very exciting. Can we all be wearing like um masks or like for aftercare?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:48

Oh, we should do a spa day for aftercare for sure. Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Hell yeah. I don't know if this is gonna make it in the final cut, but I just recently went for the first time to a Korean spa. Bro. Chinese are like, oh my god. Bro, oh my god. Bro, I gotta go back every day. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:06

Everyone, at least go buy some collagen eye patches. All right, do a full mask.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:11

Now I understand why the rich people survive. It's because they just spend all their money in life. Money can't buy happiness.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:18

Can buy spa days. Can buy spa days and baby skin and spoiler alert, salmon sperm.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:26

I had salmon for dinner.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

This is not salmon sperm is very good for your skin.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:32

All right, everyone. This has been this episode of the Burk Shop. That's what we're gonna end right here.