Sex, Drugs & Spirituality | Hear For Now Ep.18

On the spiritual path, our relationships change.

You might have used psychedelics to open your mind. But is this the highest perspective we can possibly gain? 

Even after a spiritual awakening, many still maintain attachments to gratifying the tongue, belly and sex organs - activities that by definition reside to a great degree on the material platform. 

Is there something greater beyond these attachments and activities? 

In this episode of the Hear For Now podcast, you will gain a clearer idea of the relationship between psychedelics, sexuality, and spiritual life. 

Tune in to this episode of the Hear For Now podcast to find out more.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Sex is something sacred, it is something spiritual, because you're bringing a new life into a body, you're giving it an opportunity to come into a b a human body or whatever body it might be. But the significance and sanctity of that act has been greatly diminished. Because people engage in that activity for pleasure now, because they can, it's like that. I mean in Vedic culture, so we're going back a little while now, but and I mean even still to this day it happens in some parts of the world, but there's ceremony, um, there's mantras chanted, there's a whole procedure um for setting the right consciousness and mood before you engage in this activity to bring a new soul into this world. Hi guys, welcome back to the Here for Now podcast with myself, Anandani Tai and Joseph Bleatman. Thank you for introducing me. Um once again, we're here and we're rolling on from the last episode. If you missed out the last episode, please go and watch it before you tune into this one. We were emphasizing how we want more people to comment with questions in the comment section. In brief, I'd had a discussion with my brother who's an avid listener, and he had a number of questions. Um we haven't been so interactive with the listeners thus far, and we want to be more so. So please flood the comment section with any questions silly or clever, stupid, or funny or wise, or insightful or anything. Just put your questions there, and then we can dig into them and uh hopefully answer some of them. So last week we started that with some off our own back. Um, we're gonna carry on. Um, but hopefully you guys can post some some questions in the comments and we can get into them in the future episodes. Um so yeah, Joseph, to continue on from last week. This is a question that we often get as spiritual practitioners, and one I remember that I got um a few years ago, um, I was in a pub with a friend of mine, and I hadn't in fact, sorry, I just met her. That was the first that was the day I met her, and she was um a little confused about the fact that I'd taken to spiritual life in such a in such a big way. She was seeing a lot of changes. Um and a question she asked me, which I always remembered, is um, what were you lacking? What were you lacking in your life that meant you you had to take such a path, you know? You must have been lacking something. Um So this is a question that people might have like Um What are you lacking in your life, which means that you have to look for something higher or greater? Yeah, do you have any thoughts on that? Any initial insights?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

One thing I I think about sometimes is what's known as a satisfaction treadmill. You've heard of the satisfaction treadmill before?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Um probably from me, yeah. I can't remember exactly what it means.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

It's like a psychological phenomenon, which is that if we have a peak experience in our life, let's say we get a new job, we get the girl we've all been always dream drinking of, or anything materially happens that satisfies our deep material desires, there's a peak in our life which makes everything else seem in comparison not worthwhile in a sense. And so you're looking to always achieve a higher peak after achieving that satisfaction from that new job, new relationship, new um yeah, income, anything of this this kind of nature, you're like, wow, I've I've hit the pinnacle and everything else seems less fruitful, less happy. And so you're looking for the next peak in your life. And so I think that's what I experienced in my own life somewhat. Yeah, having done quite well in terms of my work and um having some acclaim, some fame, some of these types of attributes surrounding me. Although materially it's what I wanted, I felt less and less happy. And so it made me question is this the purpose of life to chase material things again and again? Or is there something deeper? And uh I remember I would my my grandmother was brought up in a very wealthy family, like quite aristocratic, and my grandfather came from a very poor family. They somehow came together, and then my my dad has a sort of mixture of their two energies, but I remember my grandmother, I would go out with her and she would be like, Oh, can I get you something from the shop so I get you a new pair of shoes? I was like, Yeah, sure. I get a new pair, she would pay for it. Oh, it's only money, what to do. It'd be like my grand my grandfather like, you've got to finish your meal. I was on Russians when I was a child, and so I was brought up with this yeah, opposing sort of feelings towards expenditure, um, how we expend our energy materially and how much we value material things. And so, in in some ways, I was you know, not not so caring about material material things, like it's only temporary, I'm just gonna use it. And my grandmother's mentality, it's only money, so you know, just don't care about it so much. But then my grandfather was also there, you know, gotta accumulate, get, and and all of these types of things. And so I think having that upbringing made me question question um what actually makes me happy. And I found that materially none of that made me happy. No amount of wealth or fame or acknowledgement actually made me happy. And um that's what I was lacking, true happiness, true connection. I think we're always looking for love and always looking to be loved. And so um if we see money or any material thing as impersonal, which means it's only for me, basically, and it's not to be used with loving devotion to spiritually uplift myself and others, then there's downfall to it. That's why my perspective.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah, it's very I mean it thank you, that's amazing. I'd never heard that about your grandparents before.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I don't know why it came to me, and everybody told me talk about it or think about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Your grandmother should say, Oh, it's there's only money, it's only money. Yeah. It's amazing, gosh. Um was she oh actually, maybe you mentioned her to me before. Was she the grandmother that um there was um towards the end of her life? Well, I know it was that another family member, they were very concerned with their face.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Oh, that's a different family member, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Okay. But that's also like gathering. Share that quickly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Sorry. Yeah, it's hope he's not watching. But um, I have a family member who's quite well known and famous in some regard. I won't say exactly what for, because you probably find find him online, but he uh was a m music producer. And he uh If you've heard of P did he stopped listening to but essentially, yeah. He was always very he was very talented, he had some humanitarian or maybe that's not the right word, but some defaults in some in terms of speaking with people, in terms of building relationships, yeah, and so he upset some people here and there and in his career and things like this. But um towards the end of his life, which is still ongoing, he's has cancer and lots of physical problems. And I just remember overhearing him on the phone with my father. You know, I can I just don't want them to take away my nose. I just I just need my nose, you know. I need to need it for my appearance, I need it for this, for that, and he was just like really crying out to keep his his nose and to keep his his dignity, and he has a good heart, I know, and he's really is a kind person, but very materially attached to his position, to yeah, to his his fame and to to the way other people see him essentially. And in comparison to to the way my grandmother passed, my grandmother was the opposite. She was fighting through and never showed any signs of weakness, and like left this world with so much dignity and care and love. And she would even go to to like bars with my cousins when she was in the like 70s, 80s, just having fun, but also doing in a way which just showed a complete commitment to her her physical health, mental health, because she worked on it and tried to set that as an example. And so um yeah, but begs the question: what do we value in life? Do we value our own status more than what we're giving to others, or do we do we value the lesson that we're giving to others?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, selflessness or selfishness, yeah, yeah, yeah. This notion of lack as well. I just um I was just reflecting as you were speaking um on some of my spiritual teachers as well, and um you know what yeah, what did what did all these people lack at a certain point in time that we had to pursue spiritual life? What did we lack? And I was actually thinking that actually everyone is experiencing a sense of lack, like everyone in this world is experiencing a sense of lack or isn't quite feeling satisfied or fulfilled. Um and I was thinking of my spiritual teachers, guru, um, who left India at the age of 69, 70, um, and went to New York to the Lower East Side, where it was the time of the counterculture. There are yeah, a lot of hippies and different types of people, but um people who weren't satisfied, they were feeling frustrated, they were feeling a sense of lack, they were feeling um a lack of cohesion in society, but also a lack of cohesion, therefore, within themselves as well, in their own lives, and um, they were rebelling in some way, you know, the people in the counterculture, because they felt a sense of lack. Um, so many people are in fact all of us are not quite satisfied, otherwise, we wouldn't be constantly seeking pleasure in different places as well. Um, so I myself was just yeah, another one of those people like everyone else who isn't quite satisfied. Um, but I suppose the person on the spiritual path or the spiritual seeker um looks looks for a solution that's um in theory and hopefully going to be eternally satisfying. This guru who was in New York, it's called Srila Prabhupada, and um when he came to Britain for the first time, you know, he comes from India where the British Raj had been for a number of years for a very long time, um, and and had pillaged essentially uh the wealth and the resources of India. I think before the British were in India, it accounted for 25% of the world's GDP, and when the British left, it was something like 3%, or something like that, something ridiculous like that. Um anyway, and so when Srila Prabhupada arrived in Britain, um, and people the the journalists asked him why he was here, why he came. And he said, I came to give you what you forgot. You took everything from my country, um, but you forgot one thing, the most important thing, and I've come to give it to you, which is love of God, essentially. And uh what is it that those British colonialists were lacking that they had to go around the world pillaging and um stealing and manipulating, you know? What were they lacking? They were lacking satisfaction and happiness, contentedness, you know. Um, they were experiencing greed and envy. And the root of all of those things is frustration because we don't feel self-satisfied. Um so yeah, like everyone else, I was lacking um those feelings, but it's something that can only come through this loving relationship with divinity, through spiritual practice. Um so yeah, that's how I would answer that question.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

A beautiful story which is coming to mind, and you'll know it because I've heard you say it as well. But the story of a natural scientist who was very esteemed in his field on a boat with a boatman who was just taking people from A to B essentially. And the natural scientist said to the boatman on his track, he said, Do you know about astrology? About why the stars are the way they are, why this why the solar system is the way it is? And the uh the boatman said, No, I just I just know how to row this boat essentially. And uh the natural scientist said that you are missing out on 25% of your life, of life in general, actually. And um he said, Okay, well yeah, then what can I do? And so the natural scientist then said to him, Do you know about botany? Why the plants are the way they are, why um yeah, the trees are the way they are, etc. etc. And the boatman said, No, I just I just know how to row this boat. And so um, yeah, the scientist said, You're missing out on 25 on 50% of life now. And um and then the scientist said to him, Do you know how the tectonic plates move, why the seas are the way they are, etc. etc. And the boatman said, No, I don't, no. And so the natural scientist said, You're missing out on 75% of life. And then a huge s storm came, and it was clear that the boat wouldn't wouldn't stay afloat. And the the boatman said to the natural scientist, Do you know how to swim? The scientist said, No, it no, I don't. And then the boatman said, You're missing out on 100%, 7% of life. And so the point of the story is that we might gain so much material knowledge, material assets, but if we don't actually know the the essence of life, who we are, why we're here, then we're actually missing out on 100% of life. We're still lacking. We're still lacking, yes. And so the only way that we actually don't lack is that we know who we are, we know that our soul's eternally full of love, connecting with that as a science, and in that way we don't feel lack.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Amazing. Yeah, do you wanna do you wanna pump out one of these one of the next questions? One of the next questions. But um But yeah, that's an it's a really nice story that isn't it? It's like um Yeah, we can have I mean that's essentially what our civilization nowadays is is founded on. Like we we see all this complexity, technology. Um I mean on a grand scale we see complexity in terms of advancement of technology is um as advancement, excuse me, which it is in one sense, you know. It gives us facility to go from A to B faster or to access certain knowledge and so on. Um but yeah, what's the use of all this knowledge if it doesn't bring us actual contentment, happiness in life? You know, it's isn't that what everyone's looking for? Pleasure, happiness, you know. Um yeah, do you want to ask one of these?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, it leads us from nicely to intoxicants. Because there's a lot of the time on a spiritual path that we might, like you're saying, look for pleasure, happiness, and might find that in intoxicants that might expand our worldview, might might make us realise that we're not this body, we're something more. Can it can intoxicants be spiritual or are they are they bad? Do they inhibit us in our spiritual life?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

What are your thoughts on on this subject? Um yeah, it's a yeah, it's a question I think a lot of people have because you know, especially in fact, you know, I was referring to the counterculture earlier. Yeah, like in the 1960s, I think 1950s census of LSD, Albert Hoffman, uh the bike ride, all of this stuff. Um, yeah, psychedelic culture was revolution was actually a big part of the counterculture because um it caused people to question their sense of self. Like supposedly, you know, in abstract, those substances would dissolve one's ego, and in so doing, you'd be able to ask questions of your identity, of narrative, which is what the ego is ultimately, all these things that we become very attached to, and then you have realized experience that you're something more than just your conditioned sense of self. So it's very powerful in one sense and profound that um you know these substances can open you up to something. Um but to continue along this counterculture 1960s um example I'm giving, um these people um they still weren't ultimately satisfied with just the substances, yeah. Because if they were, then they wouldn't they wouldn't have been seeking pleasure in the other, you know, in all these other material spheres, which people continue to do. Like the idea of freedom being yeah, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Um if that does make one ultimately satisfied, then why do we continue to look for it in so many different ways and so many different places? And um and why is we'll come on to this with one of the later questions that I can see on there um about sex being spiritual, but you know, why is it that there seem to be so many problems associated with all these activities as well? Um and why is it that when um these spiritual teachers came at the drop of a hat, these people would put down these substances and take up the practice of something higher, which renounces all association with those things. Um there's a book by Aldous Huxley called called it called The Doors of Perception, which I read a few years ago. Um, and it's just like that. So, some with regards specifically to these sorts of substances, they open the doors of perception, you know. Um they open your eyes to seeing the world in a more expanded way, but that's still in the subtle platform, the level of the mind. Um in order to make serious advancement in such a way that we can remain fixed in spiritual consciousness. Um spiritual practice is there, so we can walk through the doors of perception and continue onwards over the horizon and into the distance. There was an album by a musician who was a spiritual practitioner of bhakti, a kirtan album, kirtan's congregational chanting, mantra meditation with music and instruments, it's very powerful. Um and in theory, this practice gives you a taste of consciousness and something so high and so sweet that the more you chant this mantra, um, the less taste you have for material sense gratification, for activities that are potentially damaging to your mind and to your body, and for activities that ultimately can't satisfy you and keep you tied to this body and this mind. Um and he made an album called Stay High Forever, yeah, because uh and I believe that's what a lot of the hippies in the 60s in America, that's how they advertised these events which Sri Prabhupada comes to speak at in the slogan Stay High Forever. Because your consciousness permanently transforms in such a way that um you become less attached, not that you run away from material responsibility, but you become less attached to um the mind, the body, the things that aren't ultimately satisfying. Um and so yeah, the question which was um are intoxicants spiritually helpful or something? I mean not spiritually, I mean they can open one's eyes a bit. Um you know in religious circles or some spiritual circles, um it's encouraged to move away from these substances. And ultimately that's because um we're all serving something. Yeah. And if we simply serve our mind and our senses, which is what happens when we take drugs and substances, then we remain um we remain a slave ultimately. We're not free. We think it's f we think this is what freedom looks like is doing what we want, when we want, how we want. Um But If we're still governed by these desires that don't satisfy us, and we have to go and get the next hit somewhere else, and somewhere else, and somewhere else. So that's quite the opposite of freedom, that's entanglement and entrapment. Um controlling the mind and senses is like a regulative principle of freedom. It gives you an opportunity to conquer the mind and senses by finding a higher taste, um, engaging the senses in the mind in something higher, and you naturally lose a taste for those things. But it's impossible to do that if you don't give yourself a chance to get that higher taste, which is what this mantra meditation, which is what spiritual practice, which is what a spiritual lifestyle gives you the opportunity to do. And unless you give yourself the opportunity, then there's no hope in hell of um experiencing that as a reality, you'll forever live in doubt unless you give yourself the opportunity to experience it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Makes me think of like the goal someone has around their spiritual life. Like, why do you take the LSD, the ayahuasca, the mushrooms? Like, what's the goal behind it? And um having been a personal trainer, I would ask people the same question: what's your goal behind coming coming to me with this physical problem or physical desire? Some people might you know want a nice Instagram, what some people might want a nice beach body, or some people might might people might want to do it for their families to do it, you know, to be strong, to produce good offspring, or to be a good example, to be healthy. And I found that those with a deeper intention behind the reason why they did what they did, they were actually long-term clients and got long-term results. And so, you know, when it comes to psychedelics or intoxicants, what's the reason behind why you're doing it firstly? And another thing that I found in dealing with the general public is that the reason why, and it also is aligned with ancient scripture as well, the reason why we want to do anything is for personal love and connection. Everyone wants love and everyone, everyone wants to be loved. So those with the desire of, you know, I want actually actually a loving relationship with my family. I want to yeah, do it not just for myself but but for other people. Those are the the most long-lasting. And so when it comes to psychedelics, are you really doing it for spiritual progress? And if you are, is it selfless? Or is it for your own, you know, wow, I experienced this amazing high. I know I'm not this body, I'm something more. So, yeah, what's the intention behind this um phenomena of using substances for spiritual development? Maybe they can open your mind and maybe they can give you some insight that I'm not this body, I'm something more. But from my experience of you know, trying this out myself, I found that it makes you one more and more impersonal. Um, I could be in a room with seven other people doing certain substances, and then actually we become less and less connected in a way, and more connected with our own induced experience. Um, and like you were saying, Ananda, getting more and more addicted to that and more and more a slave to that substance. And so I think that we should change the goal of our spiritual life from uh in order to get an experience. I want a spiritual experience, I want something for myself so that I I can be elevated on a high platform. Rather, if we have an intention of loving connection with the with the supreme and with the soul, and in that way we can actually um go beyond both material distresses, but also go forward in a way where we're sharing spiritual knowledge um in everything we do by our character, but also through our words. And so I think that psychedelics and and drugs in general have a stopping or a limit, a cap, a cap, yeah, a cap, because they can't give you loving connection with the supreme, they can just give you an experience of it which is temporary. Lobby connection goes through comes through activity.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

You know, people often think about sex as well, and like in this regard, so um the idea of because I was speaking about control, you're speaking about controlling your mind and senses in one sense, yeah. Um to facilitate for a more selfless and giving, loving lifestyle. Sex is something that can be quite transactional sometimes, yeah. Um, and I think this is a question that a lot of people have in this spiritual world because there are different practices people have like can sex be something spiritual?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Big question can sex be something spiritual? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

What do I think? I can answer now. I thought you you're in a bit of a role, but I can answer if you like.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

You answer, then I'll it gives me time to take a breather.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Um Yes, it can be, is my answer to that question. It can be, but dot dot dot. To be continued next episode, no I'm joking. We'll finish this now. But um I uh Yeah, let's put it this way nowadays um generally people have sex for pleasure and sometimes um to have a baby before contraceptives um people would more often I would suggest have sex for babies and sometimes for pleasure and probably and often have a baby because I like contraceptives. Um again this idea of freedom. So the pill was introduced, the contraceptors, you know, in the late 1960s, again at this time of revolution. I'm sure astrologers could find something interesting about that time period, you know, in the 60s, 70s, like in terms of some cosmic shift or energetic shift that was happening in this part of this um this universal, anyway. That you know, with the promise of freedom, you know, free expression and sex and enjoyment and all these things. Um but what we've seen since then is that you know, sex is something sacred, it is something spiritual because you're bringing a new life into a body, you're giving it an opportunity to um to come into a bot, a human body or whatever body it might be, uh and to exist within this cosmic manifestation and in a human body to if you're ultimately seeking um truth and realization and happiness and all these things to attain spiritual spiritual realization, to make spiritual progress, that's a very sacred thing. Um but the significance and sanctity of that act has been greatly diminished because um because people engage in that activity for pleasure now, because they can, it's like that. Previously people couldn't, so there was there was more ceremonial. Um I mean in Vedic culture, so we're going back a little while now, but and I mean, even still to this day, it happens in some parts of the world, but there's ceremony, um, there's mantras chanted, there's a whole procedure um for setting the right consciousness and mood before you engage in this activity to bring a new soul into this world, um, a soul that can contribute something of genuine value to to uh to everybody. Um but now because that sanctity has been diminished, we see um men who take advantage of the ease and freedom they have to exert themselves sexually, um, in terms of horrific things which we hear about in the news or um yeah, rape and all of this. Anyway, terrible, terrible things that happen in in the modern day and have done for a while, of course, but um, and we see unfortunately and uh traumatizingly women who have to or feel they have to um uh abort their children and you know these are traumatic terribly traumatic experiences for everyone, you know. They're horrific, painful experiences for all parties involved. Um because the sanctity of um the way that we relate to this activity has been diminished. Um and so, yes, sex can be a spiritual thing, but because it's been made an activity for material sense enjoyment, we see so many problems attached to it as well. Um because we're interacting with something in an in an unnatural way, um, you see these byproducts which are also unnatural and painful and cause so much suffering. Um so yes, it can be spiritual, but nowadays we don't engage in it in a spiritual way, unfortunately. Um and yes, people might say, Oh, you know, sex, I feel so connected, you know, to my partner and so on. And and yeah, that's there to some extent, I'm sure, but um but ultimately the goal is sense pleasure, and that's temporary and fleeting. And if we want to enjoy in a temporary and fleeting way, intermittently, with dissatisfaction in between, then we can. But if we want to live a life of ultimate freedom and satisfaction, um then rather than rather than engaging our senses in temporary uh material gratification, um, we can satisfy what's eternal, yeah, which is the soul. And that's a spiritual interaction with the material world.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

I guess when it comes to sex, things are it's in a in a way it's like a bodily demand. In some way, our body is demanding that at different intervals in our life. And when it comes to sex, I guess we can do it, like you were saying, in an ignorant way. Where it's just doesn't really matter, I don't really care about the other person. I'm just doing it for my own pleasure, my own gratifica gratification, all of these things. You can do it in a passionate way where okay, I care about this person, but you know, I just really you know what the nectar of this enjoyment and it's not really with any values or producing good offspring or doing it to any sort of regulative principles, and you could do it in a way which is actually yeah, in order to produce a a family of of spiritual, spiritual people with spiritual values, and so I think that's a way of engaging in sex in a sacred way, but for higher purpose, a higher principle.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Yeah, there's they're important questions, and if we have any more, we can go deeper next week as well. So please fill the comments with your questions. Thank you for tuning in, guys. We'll see you next time. Take care.