Inside Party Wall Surveying with Sarah Tanner

Summary

Sarah Tanner, associate director at Stanley and Strong, joins me to talk all things party wall surveying. From her unconventional career journey to the realities of fees, disputes, and neighbour relations, this episode lifts the lid on one of the most misunderstood areas of surveying.

What we cover

• How Sarah became a party wall surveyor
• What triggers the Party Wall Act
• Consent, dissent, and what they really mean
• Party wall fees and what “reasonable” looks like
• Communication, conflict, and emotional intelligence
• Women in party wall surveying
• Advice for homeowners and surveyors

Guest links

• Sarah Tanner on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-tanner-40a57976/
• Stanley and Strong – https://stanleystrong.co.uk/

Useful links

• SurvPal software https://survpal.co.uk/
• Party Wall Surveying – https://fpws.org.uk/

Guest Bio

Sarah Tanner is an associate director at Stanley and Strong, a specialist firm of party wall surveyors. With over a decade of experience in party wall matters, Sarah entered the profession through an unconventional route, progressing from PA to surveyor with the support of strong mentorship. She is known for her practical approach, firm views on fair fees, and her emphasis on communication and collaboration in resolving disputes.

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Connect with me - Nina Young on LinkedIn

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello and welcome. You're listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I'm Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let's dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. This week's episode, I'm pleased to have on the show is Sarah Tanner. Now, Sarah Tanner is a party wall surveyor and is also an associate director of Stanley and Strong, which is a reputable firm of party wall surveyors. So welcome Sarah. I'm really pleased to have you on today.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

I'm really excited to be here, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Excellent, excellent. Because party wall surveying is one of those areas that I personally would like to understand more about. And I know a lot of people, potential surveyors, the public, and other people, it'd be good to get insights into party wall surveying, both from your experiences. But before we go down that line, I know you've got a really interesting backstory to how you've become a party wall surveyor. So it'd be really good to sort of get a little bit of background on yourself and sort of how you got to where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, so mine's probably a bit of an unusual one, and maybe one that has been frowned upon, but I think that's where I am now is kind of evidence that you don't have to come from a surveying background. Absolutely not. You don't have to have spent years in the university, dare I say, to to to get into a position. So yeah, my background, obviously, I was born in South Africa. I actually moved to the UK about 21, coming up 22 years ago. So lived here longer than I than I did back there. And yeah, my professional job, you know, what I started doing when I came to the country was I was in um insurance and savings and customer service and that type of thing. So more in a financial background. At some point, my husband and I decided to pack our jobs in and go traveling. Uh, we ended up running pubs um in and around London. And yeah, it uh eventually had a child and took extended maternity. I ended up opening my own business. I love the creatives of crocheting and knitting and sewing, and I designed baby products and I essentially opened up my own business uh selling things.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

So quite entrepreneurial, then, really, Sarah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, and creative. And yeah, it just helped me obviously having a small child, it was a bit of an outlet as well, and obviously just to bring in some extra money uh for the household. At some stage, though, I decided I was probably going a bit crazy, wanting to get back out into the working world. I'm quite a social person, so working by myself didn't really work. I was kind of craving that being back in the environment of probably adults, adult conversation. And I was lucky enough to meet my current colleague at a business networking event for working mums, where I was kind of promoting my little business, but yeah, met her, and she had just got a job working for Jean-Pierre, my boss, who is a party wall surveyor. And so I took on the I took on the role of his PA, and that was 11 years ago. And yeah, 11 years ago, PA came into this weird and wonderful world of party wall surveying, which I had absolutely never ever heard of before, because unless you're doing building works or something like that. It's one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

You don't. No, you don't, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah. So uh long story short, I very quickly realized that I was very interested in the technical side of things. I was interested in the legislation of the Party Wall Act and the plans. Reading all the plans, the architect's plans, engineers' plans, the actual elements of the buildings. And I was very lucky that Jean-Pierre recognized that as well and was keen for me to essentially learn and grow into the position of an assistant surveyor. Um, I did a certificate in building surveying practice through the RICS. I've also kind of went on the courses that the Faculty of Party Wall Surveyors offer, uh, became a member of the Faculty of Party Wall Surveyors, and essentially over the last 11 years, I've sort of grown through Jean-Pierre being a mentor, teaching me everything that I know, to my my current role now in the firm as associate director. So yeah, I've I'm I'm very proud of that. And yeah, you should be. Yeah. So I love those kind of backstories. I love these stories. Yeah. I am very lucky to have had Jean-Pierre because I think it's very important that he he was on board with with what I wanted to do. So I definitely say to anyone who ends up in a similar situation that go and seek out and make it known that you want to grow in the role because I definitely know that if you don't ask, you don't get. So you should definitely so that's a good tip.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, yeah. Right. I think it's really good that you've you've got a a you know, a really strong mentor in in Jean Pierre, because I think it's it's one of those things you cannot you cannot underestimate the value of having that. It's it's all very well doing the courses and this kind of thing, but having someone that that encourages you, supports you to, like you say, progress, yeah, is is priceless. But for everybody listening, ask clearly is the tip.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Just ask because not everyone's gonna read your mind, or these opportunities, they generally will come up most of the time when you you have to make the opportunities for yourself. I mean, obviously, in some senses I always say, I was like, I just sort of like landed by luck, or I was just blessed to land in this role in the first place. But certainly I could have I could have just stayed as PA if I wanted and and coasted through there. But I you have to get you have to sort of go out there and make it known that that's what you want to do. And there have been challenges along the way, having a young family, um the bit of a balancing act. We have obviously had the pandemic in between where it was like working from home, which I think everyone found that um challenging. The party wall surveying saw continued. So luckily for us.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, indeed. So, what I'd like to to move on to now is sort of to understand a bit more about party wall. What is it about? Why did it come up and when do people need it?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yeah, so as I said before, it's not something that anyone would really know about. When people ask me what I do for a job, I quite often get this big question mark over their head, like, what? Never heard of that before.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

That's like most surveyors, anyway. But yeah, definitely party wall.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

We put the party in surveying. Oh damn it.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Oh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I've heard that said to me before. Um, so um essentially there it's a it's a legal process, it's actually a statutory process. So there is a legal requirement to do this. And if you bypass it, it's uh you're actually it it's not a good thing to do. So generally, when people are proposing to do building works to their properties, whether it's being extended, sometimes even for a brand new development on a vacant plot of land or demolishing and rebuilding, um, there's certain sections of the act or certain elements of that build that have the that could possibly trigger the party wall act to be applied. So, generally speaking, a lot of people think that it will only apply to you when you share a party wall or or two buildings are built off of one wall.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I must admit, that used to be my perception too.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, so no, so it also relates to building new walls on boundaries and also excavating within three meters of a neighbor's property or structures on their lands, whether that be a boundary wall or whether that be their actual house, whether it be the foundations for an outbuilding. So yeah, so there's three those three main headings. The the third one being structural changes to a party wall. So that's the one that most people think that it relates to, but actually you've got those extra elements. So quite often, if you're doing a loft conversion and you're attached to another property, it would apply. If you're doing a rear extension and you're building up to the boundary, even if you're detached, that it would apply.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

How does it get to so? How does it get triggered as in who's sort of like I'm I'm imagining myself, I do some work on my house? How do I know? That's the question.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Because there is no in the party war, like there's no, there's no rule that says who needs to, not necessarily like who needs to tell you, but the the act uh is specific in that the build it's the building owner's responsibility. So the the way that we refer to people is a building owner who is the person doing the work and the adjoining owner, which is the neighboring property or the person that's next to the work. And it's the person doing the work, it's their responsibility. And I guess it's if you think about it, if someone's going to be taking on a renovation of some sort or an extension, there's a lot of boxes that they're gonna have to tick. So you have to make sure you've got your planning permission, you've got to make sure that you you're gonna get building regulations. There's a lot of different things. So some people might get told by I'm gonna say, is it these other architects?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah. This is what's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Sometimes the architects will tell, tell them, other times it might be uh someone in the planning department. But at the end of the day, it's up to that individual to search what what is required. So we do get people coming to us saying, Oh, we've started our work, and the neighbors come and said, You didn't serve me with party wall notice, and I didn't know, you know. So, yeah. So I would definitely say for anyone that's going to be carrying out any type of building work, especially if you're on a semi-detached or terraced property, even if you're detached, just contact the party wall surveyor. We're very, very happy. People send us their plans all the time, and we will go back to them and say, nope, you're really lucky, you don't need to serve a notice, or actually, yes, it's triggered into even relation to this property. So we will let people know exactly who they need to serve the notices on. And it's really important to make sure because recent case law, there's always party wall, party wall jobs that sometimes will go through to the courts and and be tested. And one of the ones that have recently come to fruition is that if you don't serve a party wall notice, then you cannot apply the party wall act. And the party wall act, um, whilst a lot of people think it's just a pain and it's gonna be fees and it's gonna prolong the amount of time until I get to do my work, um the reason it's there is to keep disputes out of the courts because it's a lot easier for us as party wall surveyors to deal with it under the confines and the boundaries of the act because there's set limitations to how we actually administer the act as party wall surveyors. When it goes, if you haven't served a party wall notice and you can't therefore apply everything to the act, then if there's issues like damage or other issues that arise, you have to rely on common law, which is like how long.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So then it gets more messy, messy and more expensive, maybe? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, what if you know what is the cost of a like a notice or so to serve a portable notice to one neighbor, I mean, our fee is£125 plus VAT. So for£125 plus VAT, you can know that you've served, you've you've kind of satisfied your responsibility as a building owner to serve a notice on your neighbor. If your neighbor says, that's fine, go ahead and do it, they tick the consent box and sign it, and that's job done for now. So if you then have issues later on, because you've served that notice, you can come back to the party war surveyors, whether it be us or anyone else. And if you find yourself in a dispute over an element of works that falls under the act, then you can appoint those surveyors to help you settle it. And it's that element that is a lot easier and cheaper than going common law route. Because again, we've got the confines of the act and we we know what's permissible or what's not, okay, and how to settle those disputes.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

So if they don't consent, what what happens?

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, so you serve the notice, you say I'm building a rare extension, and the neighbors essentially they can consent or dissent, and there's a misconception that a dissent from a neighbor means that they want or they can stop the works from taking place. Um, if I could rewrite the act, I'll probably change that word completely, to be honest, along with a few other things. But yeah, it's very different. So, in planning permission is a totally separate process to us. But with planning, a neighbor actually can submit an objection to the size of that development or the position or the height of the placement of windows, all those types of things. And that can actually have an effect on whether or not that development will get planning. Our process is that if you dissent to a notice, it essentially means that the neighbors, and what will happen is the neighbors will dissent and appoint a party wall surveyor. And the party wall surveyor will either you the neighbor can have the same surveyor as the the person doing the work, the building owner.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Ah, okay. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Which there's we we have to be impartial. So it doesn't matter who's appointing us. So perhaps Darius, I don't want to put words in solicitors, but the way I I kind of people often think we're a solicitor, and that if they appoint us, we're just gonna do what they want and we're gonna back their corner, we're gonna fight their corner. When actually, when we're appointed, we are completely impartial to the person that has uh we have to be impartial. So we're looking at the buildings, and what I like to say is actually people say, Well, who's your client? And there's no client relationship, even though one person, the person doing the work has to pay the fees, but there is no, there's no sort of client relationship because it's a statutory appointment. So people don't really realize that when they appoint a surveyor, uh, they can't fire them. We can't when they appoint a party wall, you can't fire us because we're not doing what you want us to do. But what we have to do is we have to actually look, what I tend to say is if if you really want to understand is that the party wall is our client. And we are looking at one building and another building, we're looking at what is proposed, and what we have to ensure is that the building owner doing the works gets to exercise their rights to build their development whilst at the same time not preventing or disadvantaging the adjoining uh neighbor from doing something similar in the future. And also we have to look at the manner and the method and the way in which the works take place. So there's a minimal risk of damage or to lessen the risk of damage. So when someone is dissenting, the whole process is actually an enabling process. It just depends on if you're gonna go from here to here, or if you're gonna go from here and here and here and still end up there, because that's generally the process of when a surveyor is appointed, we have to review what's going to happen and then eventually authorize the works to go ahead subject to, and we can put it, it's like a legal document called a party wall award. That document sets out what works can take place, the method, what happens if there's damage, what's everyone's roles and responsibilities. And then once that's served, they can go ahead and do the work. So it just the consent and the dissent essentially doesn't have it's not I want to stop the works, or that I can stop the works, or you can go ahead. It just means what is there further involvement of a party wall surveyor? Or if if someone consents, the owners generally will liaise with each other about damage, access, all those types of things.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

So this is really literally saying, ah I didn't know like that part about the client. Didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, you don't, yeah. So yeah, that then you know, because everyone uh when you when you think about it, so obviously if someone has their planning permission and they go through the party wall process, at the end of the day, they have to be able to get to a point where they're gonna do their work. They might have to change one or two details. If we had to see that there was a trespass, a gutter overhanging onto the neighbor's land. We can generally we can ask for updates to the plans, but only to the extent that it's gonna satisfy the party wall act. Um, but mostly planning takes prevalence over what's going to be built. So sometimes people think, well, even if someone's got planning, that they they can use the party wall process to obstruct them doing their work. When actually, yes, you can make it cost more money by appointing your own surveyor, but at the end of the day, the surveyors are generally having to work together if you've got two surveyors, one on each side, you actually working together to agree a document. A lot of party war surveyors probably wouldn't agree with me because there are some, there are some that they still think it's a you against me thing, but for me, I'm always saying it's got to work together because this person's gonna do the work eventually. Why are we gonna make it more difficult to get to that point?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

I have heard about this before, actually, this kind of not always working together. And I think we something we've touched we touched upon before before we started was was around fees. And it's something I've I've heard of also in the past is regards to the charging of fees. Can you talk a bit more about that, how that works and what the what the issues are out there that you tend to see?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, I mean this is something that I feel quite strongly about, and I'm I'm definitely not shy to make my um my opinions known. And I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

This is good.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Um I'm pretty certain that a lot of party wall surveyors that have worked with worked with me before will back that up. But yeah, I I feel strongly that party walls, there are there's a lot. Unfortunately, there's always going to be in all industries, there's gonna be some people that maybe will try to use the process in a way to to gain more fees. And for me, I I just don't accept it. I've got a very strict standard and morals when it comes to to that. And I I strongly feel that party rule surveyors should only charge what for the work that they are actually doing. And I feel that-ways who? How does that that charting work? So the person who is carrying out the work, so building owner, is responsible for the surveyor's fees. But but it says it's very clear that it's the reasonable surveyors' fees. Uh, they have to be reasonable. And we see a lot of this fees at this level for potentially an area that's not as affluent. But then when dealing with a property in Chelsea and Westminster, the fees are all of a sudden shooting up.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Um inflated for the area.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

The postcode lottery. And so generally, I feel that timesheets that I see, not all the time. I mean, this is unfortunately, you are always just going to get those certain surveyors that will try this. But for me personally, I just don't accept it and I do fight back on the fees because I I feel strongly that we should only put forward our fees based on the work that we're actually given. Nowadays, hourly rates they increase, obviously. But someone charging a really high hourly rate in theory should spend less time because if you're gonna be charging a high hourly rate, you're obviously gonna be more experienced. It's gonna take you quicker time to deal with something than, say, a newly like assistant surveyor or something like that, that are gonna take a bit longer and their fees are less. But generally speaking, I see things, timesheets come through where you've we spoke about this earlier, which surveyors are trying to tell me it took them an hour to review some existing and proposed plans in on the way to or before attending a site visit. And I I just love it. Because if I had to stare at an existing and proposed loft conversion or ground floor extension set of plans for an hour, I'll probably be asleep. So I just, you know, I don't buy it. And so the you know, surveyors they chance their luck and they sometimes believe it themselves. But I I I have got a bit of a reputation now that I just I just don't accept it. And I just don't think that it's right to charge these people who are, yes, they might have money because they are doing a development, but people, it does it costs a lot of money to do these developments nowadays. So why should we be then adding to the burden of the cost exposure? We should just be charging what for the work that we've been done. What's fair? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Well, it's interesting because because this to me just it's like when I when I compare it to other areas of surveying, like in you know, where you're you're public facing and you know, you literally your your fees, for example, in residential, there's very much a race to the bottom in fees because people like literally are fighting over price. Yeah. However, so that then puts the price down, but in your situation, it's a legal requirement. So therefore, it's like has to happen. It's not like, oh, you know, I can negotiate on that price. Yeah. So the actual person it impacts isn't doesn't have the influence over that because they're not going out and shopping around for a party wall surveyor, are they?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

No. Well, the thing is they they do shop around. We do get people that come in for quotes for us. But the other thing that the other thing that I find and it's controversial, but these we we're a relatively smaller firm compared to some. You get these bigger firms that are the city centre firms that are dealing with these really huge commercial developments. Yes, they have to do party war matters, but I don't see how or why they these bigger firms they take on jobs for a tiny loft conversion in Twickenham, say for instance, but then as an adjoining owner surveyor, but then they're trying to charge the same fees as what they're charging for these huge commercial developments, millions and million pound developments, and saying that they've spent two or three hours reviewing a RICS standard draft party wall award for a Lofka version and and essentially charging double than what we or other smaller form firms. So I just I do think that's if someone wants to appoint, then that's fine, but it has to be just for me a reasonable fee. Yeah, absolutely. So it just to be fair. We all work from generally the same draft. As I say, the the RICs, the faculty of party wall surveys, they've got all these standard documents. For the most part, those never change for different party wall awards, and obviously the awards have to be amended applicable to the actual work. So we will obviously have to include or take away certain clauses of this document that aren't relevant anymore. But to an extent, it is you're working from the same base.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Is it is it because that that word reasonable is so open to interpretation, it's quite like vague.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

I did say I would there was a few things in the act I would um I would rewrite if I could. So it's like yeah, it's licensed to print money, isn't it, Balisante? I know.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

What is reasonable?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Well, the thing is the way we kind of see it is that bearing in mind a party ball award fee, it's not just the drafting of that document, the fee that you know will come into place for us anyway. Um it will be in the final fee would include the notice, a site visit to record the schedule of condition survey, which we always recommend gets done. That's when you have a survey done of the neighbor's house to record the current condition before you start your works, because it works both ways, because you want to know what their house looked like.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Uh, because a substantial claim of damage, but it was damage, it was already there.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Exactly. Um obviously, as surveyors, we would probably be able to sort of tell if a crack was newer or older and that type of thing, but it's always good to just have that first picture. So we always recommend that gets done. But it works obviously for the neighbor as well, that they can prove look, there was nothing on my wall, you've put a padstone in, now there's cracks. So it can work both ways. But yeah, so the fee will be generally the notice, schedule of condition, and the party will award, and and that's what it encompasses. So we know when we've dealt with a job, we'll know the ease at which it was, or if if there was an issue, or if there was a design issue, and it potentially that caused some extra time. So by the time you get to the end of the agreement of that war award, that's when the fees are agreed. It's the last thing that's agreed.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Because that's how you do the work that is being done to see if those fees are appropriate uh reasonable, sorry. Yes. Reasonable.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Reasonable. And um, we can ask timesheets and things like that. And it's obviously that then when I stop, we try not to pick too much. But I think I mentioned earlier that a lot of people don't realize either. There's all these different little gems that are written into the act. There are some gems, but when two surveyors are appointed, the first thing they have to do is they have to go and appoint a third surveyor, which is to compete so that the surveyors have a tribunal. And quite often that that third surveyor doesn't even know that they've been uh selected or or as part of the job. And it kind of just sits dormant. We we can notify that we'll notify the um owners who's been selected because they can actually go to that person as well. But if if you find yourself in a dispute with your peer, your party war surveyor, whether it's about something to include in the award or the more often it's about fees, I find, um, then that surveyor can actually step in and say, Well, actually, no, I make this determination. So there's all these little things. So quite often I don't let it get to that point because I'll just be like, no, I don't, I don't see how it's possible that gets messy, doesn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

But at the end of the thing, yeah, and it's it's it comes back to one of the things I spot a lot is the the way things are structured or the way things work, it does discourage the cooperation or collaboration between surveyors. And this is a really good example of where clearly there are some that do work together.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah. And like I said, this is a very it's a minority, okay, because yeah, 90% of the time or 95% of the time, it's fine. And we all we all really, or most of us, want to actually work together. We want to have, we want to get you know through the working day. We don't want issues with each other. You've got to have a laugh. If you don't laugh, you cry.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

And that's oh, you're party, aren't you? Party surveyor, put the party in, party wall, which I've got to quote from. We do have a bar.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

We've got some optics in the in the office. We have a bar. Friday afternoons. Although it never happens. We always intend it never happens.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Just still working.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

But but yeah, so yeah, we do obviously want to work together, and it I don't take delight in it. It is upsetting if you get into a situation where you're not agreeing with your your fellow party wall surveyors. So for the most part, but unfortunately there there are some that almost seem to delight in in not getting along, but they they've they're fine.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

It's interesting. At least there's few, few and far between, which is always good to hear. So the the next thing is around which which we did discuss was obviously your journey in coming into this and being a mum and and progressing through as a woman, as a party wall surveyor.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

How has that been? What what is it? How has it been your experience in the party wall surveying world?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Yeah. I mean, I'd like to say for the most part, it's been fun that there have been some challenges. I've had quite uh one or two shocking things said to me at certain stages. You know, have am I late because I was ironing my uh husband's shirts, you know, that kind of thing. Oh yeah. From let's say what was your comeback? No, I have people that do that for me.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Superb.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

But I it is changing. It is changing. There it can be difficult for people that have probably been in the industry for a very long time to accept change like that. But it is very refreshing to see more and more now are this female surveyors because yeah, I've been working with Schompier for 11 years, and I think when I started, I can probably name two or three female surveyors that I knew at the time, whereas now every day you're dealing with female surveyors. So it's definitely come a long way. I do feel, and I kind of mentioned that it probably might be a bit controversial, that you know, I've been to a few um events and it's kind of I feel it's getting to the point now, like, yes, we know that there are there are females, and yes, we want to have more inclusivity and diversity, but that narrative or that topic I feel is just getting a little bit overdone. It's like being pushed too much. So I I fear that if it just it's like when someone's really trying to push something on you so much that you actually end up going the other way.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Or switch off. I think switching off as well. I've heard this before. Here we go again.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Exactly. And I have seen the eyes glaze over, and I don't think that that's because they're being rude or dismissive. I do actually just feel that that narrative, you know, yes, we're in surveying, everyone knows we're we're here, we're doing really, really well. And I truly believe that you are going to, if you allow people to treat you a certain way, they will do that. So, and if you actually treat people the way you want to be treated, so I've got the same level of professional professionalism, kindness, the way the way I deal with people, I deal with everyone in the same way. I don't, if I don't deal with male surveyors differently to female surveyors or people from other backgrounds or cultural backgrounds. So if I'm dealing with everyone in the same way, then I'd like to think and I expect that people just do that to me. So if we just carry on doing that, we're if you're gonna everyone's gonna treat you the way you treat them. And yes, as I say, it is great. It's really nice now to go on site or turn up for a schedule of condition and actually meet up with another female, and we'll have a good old chat and stuff. And yeah, but generally now, all the surveyors that I meet, most of them, professional, and I don't feel now that I guess it's treated very different.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Do you think it's gradually improved? Do you think it's improved over your time?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Oh, yes, definitely. Like when I first started, yeah, there wasn't many. No, definitely not. And as I said, there was a few um maybe surveyors that have been in the industry quite a long time that liked things to be done in a certain way, and yeah, things were very different in terms of back when I started, people were still printing or including a CD of photos into an award for the condition survey. And yeah, I know, and then it wasn't a vibe. I mean, I'm not that old. A vibe. No, to be fair, I think I even saw a floppy disk once or twice. Um but like from a processing point of view, you know, uh when things started to change, even you know, you had to print three copies of the award, then you had to post the three copies to the neighboring surveyor. They would have to physically sign uh was it what keep one unsigned, signed one and send it back to you by snail mail, then you had to post that to the person doing the work. So just the service of the award alone would be something like a two to three week process, depending on what Royal Mail was saying, and depending on how quickly someone signed something. And so but now we've got electronic service that people can, you know. So a lot has changed in the the actual day-to-day processing. So those older surveyors that you were used to, though, they had to they've had a lot to deal with in terms of not only that, but then a shift of female surveyors, younger surveyors, all of that kind of thing. So there's been a big change since I've started, and that's only 11 years. So for those that have been around since 1996, when the act, well that was when the new act was written, a lot has changed since then.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

A lot has changed since then.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Some time ago. Yeah. Of course, at university six I was. I think I was university. Um so yeah, I mean, I think that's really positive to hear because it's one of those things. Obviously, I hear a lot about that that whole subject across different types of surveying.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

And I'm increasingly hearing this kind of thing that there is this shift and improvement. And I think I must have to agree with you on your the way to approach it. And I think what's interesting is that the fact that you challenge it, you challenge the bad behavior there and then, I think is so important. And I think that's what many women probably don't and I understand, don't don't feel comfortable doing, but I think challenging calling it out is is is you nip it in the bud early on. Otherwise, it goes away, you resent it, you hold it, you don't feel good about yourself, nothing, nothing changes. But I think there are some big things that are happening and improvements are, but I think you're right. I think it's more we need to sort of change the move the narrative now, I think, yes, to to more action. More action than just talking about it. And there's good things happening. I I so one of the other things I would like to ask that I'm interested in is my understanding from speaking to other surveyors. I know some surveyors that have moved out of party wall, for example, because they found it is quite fraught. So it it is a very emotional, it can be people get very upset because it's their home, their livelihood. How do you sort of feel about that or deal with those kind of things? Because I think it takes a certain kind of person to be able to deal with that kind of really emotional, upset, angry people, and you're you're seeing, I can imagine the communications you must get. How do you sort of deal with that?

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah, every day is different, put it that way. Um, which is probably one of the things that I like about my job is that you then every day is different. And but yeah, certainly I always say party wall surveying a very small element is element is surveying. I always say though, because the the bigger element generally is being an agony aunt, arbitration. Things can change around so differently in a job when you if you if you've people, as you said, are very sensitive, they're very highly emotional, they their home is their livelihood, it's their safe space. Imagine, you know, it not everyone's gonna have that same level of how to deal with those emotions. So some people are less adverse to risk, others are fine. So, and a lot of people just don't understand because they don't understand that that what the neighbor is doing is actually it's so my it's like so minor that there's almost like a 99% that there is no risk. But because there is a risk, that's what the actors has highlighted, they need a notice. So there could be certain things like a flashing into a wall. The risk of that is like, but they are like, oh, and the way the wording is, and so we have to be mindful that not everyone understands the technical elements of it. And what I find is that just being able to just listen, give them a little bit of show them that you are also human, there has to be a bit of a human touch to it because you can't just go through this whole thing as a robotic. And I think a lot of surveyors they they they do that. Um, and where I find that things go a lot smoother when you actually take on board the concerns, then you can kind of weed out the ones that potentially aren't party wall, maybe give them some advice on go to speak to someone else about that, or if it's a planning issue. But yeah, a lot of party wall surveying, and that I think that's where people don't have the patience, or other party wall surveyors or surveyors don't have a patience for that. Because if you if you can't give that, then a lot of the time the neighbors or the owners don't feel hurt. They don't feel like they've been taken on board. They're what they've said been taken on board, and that's when things kick off, I find.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

It's just come into my head now, is is something I I remember being told a story. This was a genuine story about this cut a scenario where the the property owner basically wanted to basically cut chop down this tree, the bottom of the garden that was overhanging, and they were also do some building works and things, and the neighbour was extremely upset, like really upset about it, and the things things kicked off. And then as time went on, it ended up being a case of the party while surveyor was was speaking with the the neighbouring the neighbour, and it turns out this tree she planted was for her son that she'd lost. So she'd lost her son, she'd planted that, and so to her, it was to the other place, it was just a few branches, it was it was overhanging and all this. But to her it was like, and then as soon as that understanding was then actually relayed to the they got it as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

But it went on for ages before they got to that bit. It wasn't obvious. Yeah. So I've just just come to mind that one. It's I was I was like, yeah, it was quite sad, but it was also and things were much better once and they actually were brought together and it was it was all resolved in the end.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

But yeah, exactly. And like from my perspective, I would rather have the owners being in agreement with each other than in a full-blown war and dispute, because who wants to live next door to someone that you've had this big issue with? And so the f what one of the things that we do, and we actually state in our quote, and I would probably put it in more these words, that if a neighbor doesn't, if they get the party rule notice just delivered off the bat without any warning, the same as if they get planning application notification without having actually any warning, they're immediately going to have their backs up. Whereas what we say is go to your neighbor with your plans, show them in layman's terms, this is what I'm planning on doing. I want to make sure that I go through the right correct procedures, and I'm going to get a party wall surveyor to ensure that all the paperwork is done correctly, and this is the name of the party wall surveyor. Then when that party wall notice drops, the neighbour's aware and they they obviously take to it better. And if they did really want to have a surveyor, they might be more inclined to have an agreed surveyor. So that'll be less fees and a little bit uh of a quicker process. Or they might even consent outright and agree to go through things directly. Um, but just going to the neighbor, maybe with a box of chocolates or a bottle of wine or something like that goes a long way because so communication, which is like fundamentals of everything. That is the word. People say no one's communicated with me. And we find that generally when things get really fraught, it's because there isn't communication. Whether it's communication from the actual owner, communication from the party wall surveyor, they want to be commun, they want they want that information. They want to have the communication, they want to know what's happening, and they want to feel like they know what avenues. Almost they matter as well. It's like if they're not just being given something, it's like exactly like you say, heard. Which, you know, you do find use maybe for a commercial developer, but even now working with developers, they also take the time to go around, knock on the door, chat to the neighbors, because who wants you don't want to have issues during the build. You don't want to have issues during the party wall note process, you don't want to have issues during the planning process. And just going out and having a conversation with that person shows them that you actually take note that they are there and they are actually a human being. And actually, there were one of the events I went to recently, there was actually someone who stood up and did a talk on the adding this sort of personal touch or this human element to these processes because yes, it is a legal process, it's a statutory process, but if you're just gonna go through it as bomb bomb bomb, ticking all the boxes, we're just doing this, then yes, obviously it's not gonna be a nice experience for anyone, and you're gonna have more likely have these arguments and that

SPEAKER_00 44:00

I'm not surprised that people do leave this practice because it can so there are obviously going to be some people you can try bend over backwards for them, they're still going to do and you still yeah, and early on in the process I will tell someone, no, you can just just we're just gonna have to deal with them, maybe keep them at arm's length, which we have to, but other people you can this is be a little bit more this is kind of ringing true though for so well, every area of surveying uh surveyors that I've spoken to, it always comes back to so many things about it comes back to communication and it comes back to the the human element, the people involved.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Like the need to relay a report in layman's terms of pick up the phone, speak to the client.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Because someone will read something and they'll panic or they'll like, what is this, or confuse, or they don't understand. Whereas if they spend the time speaking to them, I see this a lot across surveying, and I think I think a lot of surveyors, of course, exceptionally technical and have that expertise, but I think fundamental, just as important, is that need for communication skills. Yeah, the emotional intelligence, because that's what I'm also hearing from what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

It's emotional intelligence, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Yes, definitely, definitely. And as you say, like with us, there's a process of sending a draft document to another surveyor, they make comments on it and they send it back to us. Um, and sometimes you'll see a comment on there and you're like, What is this person talking about? Or why is he asking for this? Or you can immediately and then you'll pick up the phone and say, Hey, can we chat about this? or or the fees, for instance, and thing. And quite often just having that phone call just to run through a few things, and there's so much that you can actually just iron over, and without having to get into these full-blown like disputes with your other surveyor. Yeah, just picking up the phone, having a conversation, getting a little bit of insight is to pin, okay, why have you included that? Where what's the thought process on that? And we're like, oh, actually, yeah, you're right. Maybe I didn't think of that, you know. So, so yeah, I I definitely think that communication in this process between owners, surveyors. I said I I really I like the diversity and sense of the different types of people that we deal with. Yeah. I'm dealing with not only other party wall surveyors, but architects, engineers, planning officers, uh, to a small extent. We don't really get involved in that, but oh the people that are the properties, the building owners, the adjoining owners, interior designers, like there's there's all these different elements and all these different people that we have to deal with. So you have to be open-minded and you have to be able to sort of put yourself in other people's shoes as well, and just yeah, absolutely put yourself in other people's shoes.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I've learned a lot. Some of the things that you've shared, it's like some of the I it's just things I wasn't I wasn't aware. Obviously, I'm I'm not a partial surveyor and things, but I think the members of the public or the surveyors be like, oh yeah, right, okay, I didn't realise that was the case. And those things that you've mentioned, especially like around the fees, is quite an interesting one and it's quite an eye-opener, really. Before we before we close up, is there anything else that you'd like to share? Anything else at all?

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Um, no, well, I mean, just as a general, a general overview is just for for people that's proposing doing building works, or if you're a neighbour of someone doing building works, there's no harm in, and I think everyone should really take it upon themselves to look into what is needed of them from a statutory or legal point of view, because you can't see rest on your laurels that someone's going to tell you whether it applies or not.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Sure. So where do they go, so and where could they go? Is there something online?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Um the on the government website, it does give a lot of information about the Proxy Wall Act. But I mean, even if they wanted to shameless plug, uh contact us, we bought it. People send their plans to us all the time. And if we we can tell them, yes, notice is due, or you know, no, there's no notice due, go ahead and so they'll send them to us. They can we've got a bit of information on our website as well. But yeah, generally just that's what I would say because it's really difficult to get into a situation where if you haven't served a notice, that you could end up having to rely on common law, which is like how long is a piece of string. Um so yeah, you it's better to always rather serve that notice and be able to rely on our on the party wall acts than to to not. And also when it comes to selling your house, we often get calls from people that have done building works or were the neighbors and the solicitors and the state agents are asking for copies of party wall paperwork because they need to know that you've actually satisfied that because it we've seen sales fall through that when people haven't done it. So it's a really, really important thing to do. And like I say, even if it's a case of getting that initial notice, it's 125 plus fat or thereabouts, depending on you can even draft your own one. Hopefully, you did correctly because it is a little bit tricky and you've got to make sure you can.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

It sounds tricky. I I wouldn't suggest that everybody.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Yeah, but some people try and they get it right. But but I would just say, yeah, just just make sure that you you get it covered. Rather be safe than sorry.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I think that's great. And I think that's great to close on as well. So I hope this has been helpful to everybody. Um, it certainly has been interesting to me. So I'd like to thank you for your time today, Sarah. Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we're doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveyed UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today's episode are included in the show notes.