Jordan Turner on EPC Reform, Sustainability and Educating the Next Generation of Surveyors

Summary

In this episode of This Is Surveying, Nina Young speaks with Jordan Turner, senior lecturer at the University of the Built Environment. Jordan shares his career journey from residential property to commercial surveying and academia, and explains why sustainability and EPC reform are central to the profession's future.

They also explore skills shortages, education pathways, and the need to make surveying more visible to young people.
 
 What We Cover

• Career journey from residential agency into commercial estate management
• Why industry experience strengthens surveying education
• EPC reform challenges and inconsistencies
• Retrofit pressures and Minimum Energy Efficiency Standards
• Behavioural impacts and policy gaps
• Home buying reform and upfront information
• Skills shortages and attracting new surveyors
• Residential surveying education pathways
• Knowledge transfer from experienced professionals
• Collaboration across the surveying profession

Guest Links

Jordan Turner LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/jordan-turner-50748a17b

Useful Links
University of the Built Environment – https://www.ube.ac.uk

Guest Bio

Jordan Turner is a senior lecturer at the University of the Built Environment with a professional background spanning residential property, estate agency, property management, and commercial estate management. He is currently undertaking a PhD focused on sustainability and energy performance in the built environment. Jordan is passionate about improving EPC frameworks, strengthening educational pathways, and bridging the gap between academic theory and real-world surveying practice.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello and welcome. You're listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I'm Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let's dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. I'm your host, Nina Young, and today's guest is Jordan Turner. Welcome, Jordan.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Helena, thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

It's great, it's great to have you here, Jordan. So Jordan is a senior lecturer for the University of the Built Environment. And I'm looking forward to this conversation because Jordan's coming at this from very much an education viewpoint, but also has a strong background in surveying as well. So welcome, Jordan. And I think there were a few things that we mentioned before the call that we'd like to maybe talk about. But before we dive into those subjects, could you tell me a little bit more about yourself and how you you came to be a lecturer?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, it's interesting. The long story short is something I never envisioned would happen. So if you ask anyone or speak to anyone, my friends and family that'd have probably all told you how I'd ended up as a professional sports coach or PE teacher or something. I was obsessed with sport. So finishing my first degree, I then sort of went into teaching coaching sport. And then a couple of years in, I'd I kind of had enough of that and sort of wanted always had an interest in property, but didn't really know what I was going to do, how I was going to get into it. So the door really opened when I was a student in my first degree. I worked part-time for my student accommodation. So on the CV, that's really the only thing that I that surrounded sort of property. So it opened the door to get a job looking after student accommodation. So big block with over a thousand rooms per purpose-built student accommodation. And then from there, really, it kind of just opened into different things. So I went into sort of typical estate agency. So lettings moved from the student world into sort of professional letting, renting, and then did property management, portfolio management, sales, valuations, became a branch manager. And then after about six years in residential, decided in a non-arrogant way, I felt like I'd sort of done everything in residential, other than perhaps residential surveying. I felt like I'd done everything from an estate agency point of view. And at the time I wanted that bit more. I started my master's in real estate and started to pick up really a lot of commercial knowledge because that was what the course predominantly was. There was very, very little on residential and it was more commercial. So of course I'd kind of got the residential practical experience, got the commercial theory knowledge, but no commercial sort of practical, practical application. After completing that, I then went into sort of training as a surveyor then in the commercial sector. Day-to-day, I call it estate management, so looking after stores, lease negotiations, getting new new leases, and your typical day-to-day property management stuff in in the commercial world. Where the the lecturing then came in is I started my PhD after swearing I'd never go back to education again after my bachelor's, then did a master's and then said, right, I'm definitely done. I was sort of very passionate around sustainability and I saw a bit of a gap and an area I could go into. And with that, kind of naturally comes bits of teaching. So that opened opened a few doors. And then yeah, kind of started picking up more and more of that. Realised I was enjoying that side more than I perhaps was in in the industry day to day. And then yeah, that that opened a full-time job in lecturing. And 12 months later I was a senior lecturer, and there I am now. So yeah, it's of course all the details and things in in in between all of that, lots of funny stories. But yeah, that that's pretty much how I got here.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

That's a great, that's a really good no, that's a really good snapshot. I like that. Really good introduction there, Jordan. With regards to the lecturing, what what is it that you enjoy? What do you enjoy about it? What what is it that kind of drew you to it? And then now I know that you really, really do enjoy it. So what is that?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah, I I think I've always had a passion for in a way that the the teaching, training element of it. I mean, I've somehow I'm still friends with, very close friends with, from when I was still in industry, and I've seen how, in a way, they started when they were sort of 18, and I was quite a bit older than them. And I've sort of in a way took took them under my wing, trained them, showed them what I knew and mistakes I'd made and things I'd learnt along the way, and kind of not do this, don't do that, because I think that in some ways people need to make mistakes, I feel, and that they learn from that and they they they work out what's the right or wrong approach for themselves, and particularly on any negotiations, I think there's not necessarily a right or wrong way to approach it. Everyone will will come at different angles, and and I think I enjoyed sort of showing people and training people and teaching people that, and and that now comes into very much what I do. Of course, there's there's the black and white element of this is how it is and this is how it's taught, and and this just is what it is. But then there's very much of the these are my experiences and what I've seen in industry and what you're likely to come across in in industry day to day, and some of them do. A lot of the the people who I do teach are in full-time employment. A lot of the people we have at University of Built Environment are in employment, so they are seeing this thing in kind of day to day. So the examples I share with them and and things go probably they relate better than someone just talking at them for an hour and saying, this is this, this is that, and there's nothing in between. And particularly in in our field and anything real estate and anything with sustainability, you've got to have opinions. There's there's got to be things that you you challenge, and things aren't always just crystal clear. This is this, this is that. There's going to be a lot more opinion to it. So it's the wide range. We have people from 18 apprentices, new, fresh, straight out of sixth form college, and and ready to ready to go, and and working in industry now to mature students doing master's conversions who are in the 50s and and 60s. So you get a real wide range of different people and from all over the world as well, which is which is great. So yeah, it's it's good fun.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

It sounds actually, it sounds really varied as well in what you're doing. Yeah. I like the idea that you you bring your experience into it because there's nothing, there's nothing better than real life examples when you're trying to teach something and put it into context.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, definitely. And I and I think that's that's appreciated more. And again, particularly when you're working with a wide range and you've got your sort of level four first-year undergrads to postgraduate, you know, master's level sevens, and and and it is that again, it's that sort of varied approach in in the teaching methods. And as I said, yes, certain subjects are this this is the way it's done, this is how to do it properly, but then having experiences and what they're likely to actually encounter day to day, I think helps them just relate it a little bit more. And that theory to application, which ultimately is what it's all about. We're we're trying to train and promote them into surveying and into industry. It's all well and good if they've got the knowledge and the theory, but then they can't apply it in a practical sense. So I think they they enjoy that side more where we we can get the sort of theory in into practice then. They just make it just makes it a lot easier for them.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

More tangible, isn't it? With regards to attracting people into the profession, what are your experiences? What are you seeing and challenges or progress, I guess? I'd be interested to know your experiences.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yeah, I mean, it from what we've got is fantastic. So you know, talking about the students who are enrolled or coming to us, it is fantastic. Where I think that the biggest challenge comes from is from a much, much earlier age. And and it goes back to, and I even say this in lectures, is you go back, particularly the postgrads, not so much the undergrads now, because they've probably got even better knowledge at times than what I do, which I'm I'm not afraid to admit at all, but particularly some of the postgrads and and sort of maturer, uh respectfully older students, is you ask them to cast a mind back 10 years. What did you know about surveying? If someone said to you, oh, what is a surveyor, or what is sustainability, a lot of them they didn't know. Somewhat a surveyor, oh well, they they look at buildings and they don't realise, well, okay, yeah, maybe maybe they do, but there's also land, there's quantity surveying, there's okay, there's buildings, but there's residential and there's commercial. And and no one sort of really knew that back then. Of course, they do now, but back then they they did it. I certainly didn't. And it and it kind of comes back to feeding it from school. You know, how many if you go into any school, okay, maybe not primary, but at secondary school, ask you know, a bunch of teenagers, do you want to be a surveyor? Or could we attract you into surveyor? Oh, what's that? What's that all about? Ask them what they know about it, and the answer, even still, is very, very little. So they almost, in a way, either stumble on it accidentally, they have links from family or friends because they're surveyors, or they know the dad's friends' dad, or they've got family who are surveyors themselves, so they stumble into it that way, or they come across it, like myself, much much later in life. Where it's never too late. I think it's always great to change careers and come into the built environment. But they they do come across it, I think, much later, unless you go down the apprentice route. But even then, 16 to 18 year old, you your knowledge of surveying is probably still quite limited. So I think it does stem into war.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

I don't think because I did I did a geography A level. I love geography, and it was split between uh, well, one of these sides was urban geography and urban business studies as well. But I actually I found out accidentally about surveying and being a chat surveyor, and I did go to see someone, and I've told this story a few times, but on this private estate, it was a chat surveyor, but it was it was like Gandalf in Tweed, you know, and it was just put me off. So I didn't go down that route. But I did consider but I accidentally I think I was really looking into property, but I didn't want to be an estate agent. But when I look back, geography would have been I isn't the ideal thing, isn't it? Just to bring in a little bit about surveying. Because everyone knows what an accountant does, even when they're a teenager, they've got an idea.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Or a lawyer, they've got an idea. But a surveyor, they'll they'll never have an idea.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

No, and and because there's so many routes as well, and this is the thing. There's so many different pathways. It doesn't just have to be restricted to just purely buildings, you know, just purely houses or purely warehouses or retail units or whatever it may be. There's so many different routes and and opportunities available to them that again, there are subjects. We're not asking it, although, yeah, we would all love for the option of GCSE built environment as something like that to exist. Realistically, is that going to happen anytime soon? Probably not. So, yeah, start throwing it into sociology, geography, whatever it might be, something that just gives that bit of a taste and feel for this is an available career pathway that you can do. Absolutely, fully agree.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah, when you think about some of the cool tech we've got in some of the areas, the use of drones across surveying, that's really a draw. And I'd be like, Oh, that's cool. It's like there's uh there's a surveyor who was in within land, and he's his expertise is that they use really advanced drones for like archaeological sites and map. And I'm just like, this is amazing. And but anyway, digress and waffle on about that. But one of the areas I would like to talk to you about, and and I'm sure the listeners would like to hear about as well, is around your expertise within EPC areas, sustainability, and of course the EPC reform. So I think that would be helpful for people to hear more how what it is you sort of your understandings and things, and anything that you would like to share around that area.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah, so this this is very much where my sort of research comes into it from where I'm looking in my PhD at the moment, and a lot of what I sort of teach in sustainability or or try to get students thinking and and challenge the challenge the system, so to speak. And it is that the EPCs at the moment, and again, potentially controversial, potentially a lot of people may agree, disagree, is that they are not fit for purpose in the current form. And I think the problem is they they stem a lot away now from what they were originally designed for, which was around energy efficiency. And I think efficient is the home. The better the score, the more efficient it performs, or should. A lot of the research shows that, well, actually, this there's so many studies out there now, and it seems that month by month there seems to be more and more published. Where we're actually seeing in some cases where cases have been carried out that there's there's properties with lower-rated EPCs performing better than those which are rated higher. So there's a massive inconsistency problem and human error which comes in. This is in no way at all any blame or anything on the assessors whatsoever. I think part of the problem is is the process and the let's call it technology, not really technology, but call it the you know the data input.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

They've got, aren't they? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

No, no, they work with work with the tools that they've got, I think I think is what what what I was trying to look for. But I think one of the things where potentially the problem came in is when we started to look at Mies or minimum energy efficiency standards. And that for me is in some ways where the problem started. Because what it then became about is okay, we've got this energy performance, how how well that the property performs, what should a typical user be using on their energy? Well, we know around behaviours, and if we put two people in the same house at different periods, of course they're going to use different amounts of gas, electric, and and there's the behavioural side to it, and we know that that's a different matter. But the the government almost went down the route of well, we're introducing Mies because yes, we want to lower energy bills and this, that, and the other, but of course, the the net zero goal of 2050 and sustainability, and well, if properties are performing more efficiently, then they'll be more sustainable. Now, defining sustainability is is another podcast in itself. I think you can go on for hours and hours and try to reach a conclusion on what sustainability is and probably never agree. But what what is it that the EPC is trying to show? Is it the energy efficiency or actually we're trying to show more than this? Because what an EPC doesn't tell you is well, we know there's too many assumptions for a stop. If the assessor can't get into the attic, and again, rightly or wrongly, we're not here to disagree or agree with the process, but if they can't get into the attic for whatever reason that may be, and they can't then revisit the property again for again, whatever reason that may be, it'll either be two things, and it'll be assumed that there's no insulation, or it'll be assumed that there is, which is a big, big deal. Now, what if if you did somehow manage to get into that loft arch and there's 50 millimeters of loft insulation in there? What if there's nothing that that is going to have an impact? Cavity wall, again, it might be assumed there is, might be assumed there isn't, depending on the accessor and the knowledge and and their expertise in that. There's there's a lot of assumptions made or perhaps not made that's going to have an impact on the score. And again, it doesn't say anything about sustainability. We don't look at the materials or anything like that. We don't look on an EPC certificate and it says 30 millimeter loft insulation, fiberglass, just state 30 millimeter loft insulation. If we want to go down the sustainability route, then it's 30 millimeter loft insulation, hemp, or rock wool, mineral wool, fiberglass, whatever it may be. We we need to start being more specific. And as I said, that the research and studies at the moment just show far, far too much inconsistencies, human things that EPCs don't show, heritage buildings or older buildings being put at a massive disadvantage because of the EPC score. Again, that's not probably reflective of the actual score. And it's very much the predictive and actual performance model where we're we're seeing a lot of problems at the minute. And so that the reforms for me don't don't go anywhere near far enough. It addresses some of the issues. Yeah, so a lot of the reforms stem around exactly that, is trying to make them more detailed, changing the way in which they're conducted, the policing of them as well, because one thing that has come under scrutiny is the policing of minimum energy efficiency standards, particularly in the rented sector. And now there's too many cases where that's just slipping under the radar and no one's actually doing anything about them being less than an E. Well, of course, by 2030, they're wanting to increase that to a C. So if they can't police it now, how are you going to? So that that's one thing. That that's one thing. But then a lot of the reforms come around the the sort of metrics which are being used. So we're wanting to use more again, how it's going to happen, but things like thermal, so how much heat loss is there actually occurring rather than trying to predict. So again, does this mean that we're going to start seeing EPC assessors walking around with thermal?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah, these are all open to interpretation and you know, exactly. Yeah, it's a skill, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

100%, a hundred percent, and and the training, you know, the the training around it, and and again, that this is another problem is there's talks around trying to modernize the training process and and retrain or bring everybody to the same sort of level. But again, you know how how that works in practice, you know, you look at your big providers, you know your helmets, there's many, many others, but you're just just looking at at major providers at EPC assessor training. Why is it that I can go on a five-day course and it costs me£1,800? And then I have a friend, by the way, I'm not I'm talking hypothetically, but then I have a friend who goes and does three days and they pay a thousand pounds. So who's the you know, perhaps not the right word, but you see where I'm going with this? Who's the better assessor?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

There's me who's paid more minimum, minimum quality standard of training for competency and and skill before they let out to do the actual.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

And this is the thing, you know, they do don't get me wrong, that a lot of companies who they then go on to work for do provide training, they do go out and and carry out EP assessments with someone who's more senior and and you know has done that. Don't get me wrong, that that exists, and there's no dispute to that. But after that, off you go. And and there's all the and I won't bring any specific examples, but you hear a lot of cases, a lot of cases where assessors, and again, this doesn't single anyone out, and and I can really only apologize to the good assessors, but what it does bring in is the element of the drive-by assessments, where this go to a property, drive by, just like with the and and then this in in some ways ties a little bit to I guess surveying as well, but that the drive-by surveys where it's just a valuation, drive-by valuation, drive by EPC assessment, drive by the house, haven't got inside, know nothing about it, the D C whatever it is, look at the previous EPC score, make an assumption off of that, and they've not actually gone into the property. So, you know, that is really poor practice. How do you get the EPC score from that? You know, they could have since the the last one could have done all sorts to that property internally to have improved the score, yeah. They've just gone to the front. How did they now? It's unlikely, don't get me wrong, but how do they know there's not solar panels on the back? And they've gone and installed.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

My understanding is no, there's no there's nothing or nobody or that picks that up. There's nobody that questions that. Who would spot that EPC being at the buy and selling process? And then that's the problem. Well it's and we don't have that.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

That is the problem. There's too much reliance on occupants, in my opinion. There's too much rely on uh reliance on the occupant to report it, or a state agent in that case, if it is that they're they're obviously looking at that. But that is the issue. You would think a public available document that let's face it, anyone can go on to government website and download an EPC certificate for any address anywhere in the country if it's got one. You would think that that you would be a little bit more cautious or or certainly careful as to what you do and don't input into the iPad, laptop, whatever it is that they're using to then kick out that score. But there isn't. So it's very, very, very poorly policed and managed, which all stems into with the world of data and should I say it, dare I say AI, the ability to analyze data and interpret it.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

There could be triggers in place like go, hang on, flags, things that, well, it was like that before. What about like I don't know if that's even data that's comparable, but my thought would be you'd be able to trigger things that but there is nobody, I guess, that's quality check. There's no no checks, no auditing of of that, is there? And yet it's such a fundamental thing. And then I'm thinking about how how does this then sit with everything that's happening in retrofit, where there's gonna be this massive push, people retrofitting the homes, all these changes, and these drive-bys still exist. It's like there's gonna be more more disparity. I don't know. I'm just I don't know what what your sort of thoughts are around the whole the retrofit and the EPC and how that all sort of interrelates.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Yeah, the the the simply put, yeah, and again, you we could go go for hours uh about this and a lot of the research I've done over the last uh over the last two two, three years, but it in in short, it it just mat it the the reform itself needs reforming. The reforms don't go anywhere near far enough to address the problems that we're still going to have. Don't get me wrong, we have to start somewhere, and and no one's going to dispute that. And some of the the proposals I'm I'm for, I think they do need to happen, but they still need to go a lot further, and particularly with with the retrofitting, as you mentioned, but also with with me's minimum rating increasing to a C, it's going to become more problematic. So if we're setting a metric that's got to have a minimum rating, that in itself is a problem. If the system's flawed to begin with, it's that the the C in the bigger scale of things means nothing. To me, a property with an A and a property with a D doesn't really mean very much right now as of today. If that changes and the way and the measures and the metrics which are involved in that EPC process changes, then we may get there. But but as of speaking today, there's absolutely no way I could probably look at any EPC score and and really trust what it's telling us. And that is again, as I said earlier, no disrespect whatsoever to the assessor. No, of course not. It's just what what they're working with. They themselves don't go into the property to do all these things and say, yep, it's a C. It's it all feeds into a platform that then pumps out a score and a grade.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

You're right, it's it's like a totally broken system because I see so many, I see a lot of sadly, there is a lot of uh criticism of EPCs from surveyors. Um but like you say, yes, of course, there are always going to be those that drive by and shortcuts, but that's not the main, and they are working with the system they've got. But I'm thinking there's so many things that are broken, for example, the Mies thing, this minimum C. How many landlords, how how much uh pressure will there be for someone to say, yeah, it's a C? Like we know that that will happen because they want it to be C, they know an assessor, make it a C. Unfortunately, I'm not saying this against all the EPC assessors, far from it, but it's gonna drive bad behaviour. And if because that's not being checked, then it's it's it's easy. It's gonna be easy to go past, bypass this kind of thing. There's gonna be so much pressure for landlords, and they will choose. Some will, not all, but some will choose an easy route.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Well, absolutely, and and that's the problem. Part of it comes down to the the the pay. Okay, I'm based up here in the north, so anyone in the south here who's who's listening today might think crikey, they're cheap. Realistically, a lot of assessments now you'll probably pick up between 30 and 40 pounds, maybe 45 pounds. So it's not it's not very expensive. There there has been, and again, perhaps not the the the right language for it, but backhand where it it is exactly as you said, make make it a D, make it a C for me, extra bit. And and that is yeah, again, it's bad practice. So you've got a friend who's an EPC assessor, do me a favour. It's it's that kind of it's it's that kind of of behavior. Whilst you know, if you did that with any other organization, it's dishonest, it's not ethical, it it's but again, yeah, who's gonna police it or check it?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

There's nothing to identify it, is there? There's no checks.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

This this is the problem.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Or you're pushing the government's pushing all this with the reform and the minimum C, but it's just gonna drive shortcuts and yeah, interesting. I do think I do think that assessors do get a bit of bad press or a bit of a bad time over it, certainly within the surveying community. Yeah, I see. I don't think it's fair. Um, because uh within any profession, there will always be people that don't play abide by the rules, yeah, but they are working with what they've got. But I know a lot of EBC assessors want want to do a more thorough job, but they have to work with what they've got.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah, absolutely. And nothing to add to that, I think I've absolutely spot on, is that that that is very much the case right now. And and it's like with anything, it's then unfair on the the good, honest, decent assessors out there who you know do put their heart into it and they do the best job that they can. And and they know themselves there's flaws in the system, but they do the best job working with what they've got. And and as you said, it's it's then unfortunately filtering out the I wouldn't say bad ones, I don't think there's bad individuals, it's just bad practice or or poorly enforced practice that we've then got to try and filter through. And and that that is difficult to do with no policing.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

So is the PC reforms, are they just ongoing?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

What sort of yeah, so the the the the consultation closed closed last year, so they they they launched, yeah, they they launched the the the sort of typical 12-week consultation process that they did. Everybody sent in the thoughts and and feedback to it, uh including myself. I spent an awful long time replying. Whether any of it will get took notice of is another thing. Um, but it it's we we now wait and see, as with anything. I think with any proposal consultation which comes in, that will then go into the the usual process of being assessed, criticized, looked at, filtering out what they do and don't want to listen to, and then they'll come up with a plan. You know, whether that'll be later this year, next year, who knows? I think it's the just like with the Mies and the minimum rating of a C, we know it's happening for a long time. We didn't know when we knew it was going to happen, but didn't know when. Now we do. I think it will be a similar thing with this in that reforms will happen. We don't know to what scale and how much that will or won't have an impact. Um, but it it will come. And I think we just wait to now see what they're introduced, of course, then getting it through parliament, etc. etc. And we we wait and see. So I think we all, yeah, eager, eager anticipation as to what they do with it.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I can see how the retrofit as well, how that it it all kind of ties together. There's there's so much there's a related, and are they literally very basic level? Are they talking to each other? There's the retrofit and there's EPC stuff going on. It needs to be tied up. There's the there's the uh this is why I always forget what to call home buying and selling reform.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yes happening.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

So there's all these things that are happening. It's like are they actually talking to each other in some way? Because there is impacts across the board, I think.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

But they're all they're all linked, without a doubt. I think it it all comes into the much, much bigger, bigger picture of doing all these reforms, particularly in the residential section. The buying and selling reform seems to be another way of doing that. That is more recent, and the the changes around that seem to be now be shifting a lot more onus onto the seller to get upfront information. Now, a lot of this stems around the conveyancing process, right, rightly or wrongly. So, again, like with EPC assesses, we get a lot of conveyancers who get a lot of bad bad press and a lot of stick, some cases rightly, some cases wrongly. And I think a lot of that it comes down to understanding and sometimes not knowing the exact ins and outs of of what they are doing day to day. But a lot of it is going to shift some of that upfront information and and cost to the seller, which again has not been made clear. Well, how is that going to happen? So, okay, EPC certificate, that that's one thing. Everyone knows that you have to have that, but now there seems to be a lot more pressure to get a lot more information. So things which would probably ordinarily come in the early stages of the conveyancing pro process, you're going to need that up front before you even get the property on the market. So then it brings into the well, those who are perhaps thinking of selling, approach the estate agent, get it on the market, and then change the mind, are probably not going to be as likely to do that, having now spent hundreds of pounds, if not close to a thousand pounds, just to get it on the market. It it it all it all sounds great in theory, and so you start to look at the numbers and think, how's all this going to be paid for? There's a cost, well, you want to sell your house, you need to get all the relevant information for it. And probably some people may have that view, but then another thought is well, okay, but it it's an it's an additional fee that some people might not just have up front. You pay your estate agents after the sale of the property when the you know the money's there, that the money's come in. You you pay your conveyancer, you solicitor, you pay the estate agent, and and so on and so on. If someone turns around, and again, yeah, I'm just pulling out a random number here, but if someone turned around and said, Right, you need to pay a thousand pounds just to put your property on the market, you're gonna look at them a little bit, okay, really? That seems a bit something doesn't something doesn't add up there. So again, it it's the information which is going to be required. We don't know to what scale there's a validity, uh there's a validity issue. How long is it valid for? Yeah, what if you don't sell the property within six months, nine months, a year, or whatever it is, you've then got to do it again and spend another 500 pound, 1000 pounds, whatever it may be. It all seems again great ideas until you start to then roll it out and practically I think everybody is up for speeding up the the home buying and selling process. I think we would love to see more transactions happening more quickly.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

That's clear, isn't it? I think all parts of the streets no one would be against that.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

And one of the things I've mentioned, there's a lot of talk around conveyances and they deliberately delay things. And they said, well, in actual fact, unless they're on a time basis, a lot of conveyance in residential is done on a fixed fee. There's no additional charge, anything. There's no benefit to drawing it out and extending it as long as they can. It's within every you know party's interest, buyer, seller, seller, solicitors, buyer solicitors to complete as as quickly as they can. So again, it comes down to what we're looking to achieve with this. What are we actually going to achieve by introducing some of these proposals to put more onus on the seller? The surveying element, what what is that going to involve? Are we asking for perhaps something not as detailed, but something not too dissimilar from the I could still get used to the old level two, level three survey, your home buyer's report? Are we going to see something where we're we're asking sellers, you produce the home buyer's report? Not to that level, not to the to the level that you would get that a buyer of the property is going to instruct the surveyor to go and do that. But is it going to be that we're we're now expecting something not too dissimilar from that? Where there's an almost standard report in some way that's then given to any potential buyers, so that they've essentially got a pack of information readily available before they've even viewed the property. So yeah, it's all stemmed around reducing fall-throughs, reducing conveyancing times. There's a lot of I would say good things in there, but just like with the EPC assessment, EPC reform, sorry, carries a lot of questions to what they've got answers.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

And and as we all know, anything that involves money is going to have a big impact on behaviours. So, like you say, people sell houses for various reasons. Some of them they have to. Say a couple they're going through a messy divorce and they need to sell the property. Well, suddenly they've got to split that thousand pounds between them. Or it's it's a probate, or it's there's so many reasons why people don't actually have money, they just have to sell the property because financially they can't afford to keep it. And then you're asking them for a thousand pounds. That's gonna be really different. That's gonna be really restrictive for a lot of people. They're not gonna want to do it. So I think then, yeah, I think the money thing, and also if we look at the the upfront surveys potentially, there's a lot of debate and discussion around that currently as to what does that look like? Will it be could that have a massive impact on independent firms who tend to pride themselves on maybe a more thorough survey and not just a level twos? But if we go to a something where a seller has to get it, even more, it's bad enough that I think in residential a survey is considered more as a product, it's not as a professional service, it's productised because of the way it's driven, it's very price-driven, which is uh sadly the state of affairs at the moment. But then if the seller has to do them, that's gonna be even more the case. Because they're just cheap as chips, fast and cheap. So then that could obviously be swallowed up by the corporates. How does that leave people that sell and they get a survey? And it might be, like you say, just a level two, but this is a grade two listed property. Does that person buying the property think, oh, that's enough? When it actually probably isn't, you need a level three, but they're not gonna get they're gonna go, well, that's fine. It said this. So there's there's a lot of uh implications down the road. Oh, it's very complex. When you start really deep digging into it, you it must blow your mind sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Oh, yeah, yeah. We we recently, funnily enough, did did another podcast and an article on this that I did with with the university, and and yeah, you you you could you you can really dive into the sort of ins and outs. I don't think we have anywhere near enough time to start breaking down each in individual element, but yeah, in in a nutshell, absolutely, the it's the very much there's far more questions than what there is answers right now, and and until those are addressed, I don't really think that can make too much more progress uh until we get some of those answers.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah, and you'll be yeah. So how you you're currently doing your PhD, is that is that right?

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

How long how long is it how long how long is it to you?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I don't know. Yeah. Realistically, I mean four four to four to seven years is is a typical length. Um it's sustainability. I think it's because it's so fast moving, fast changing, policies come in, reforms come in, you then have to update, you know what I could write something today, and in a month's time the government in the wisdom bring in some new and that's then out of date and it needs to be updated. So it's it's almost a constantly changing learning process. You're always teaching and and learning every week that that goes by. So there's always a lot of research making sure I'm keeping up to date with it. But um, yeah, I'd I'd like to I'd like to hope it is this side of of 2030, but we'll we'll see. If not, we'll see maybe into 2030.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

So we're coming to the end of the the show. Is there anything else you'd like to share or to anyone listening in particular?

SPEAKER_01 40:32

I think we we definitely need to, of course, I spoke a lot about reforms and some of the research I've been doing, but coming back onto the education piece, I think for for any uh away from EPCs and owned buying and selling reform, I think more generally for surveyors is that I would love to see more and more, almost going back to what we we picked up on at the start of today, is the the education piece at a much, much earlier age. I would love to see surveying made more available to younger people and what it is that surveying is all about, how they can get into it, all the different pathways. The money in some surveying, as we know, is pretty good. Yeah, it might be quite attractive to some people, even to hear that a bit. Of course, we know not everybody's in it for the money, but some people more money-oriented might be quite impressed by some of the money they could earn in the industry, but they just don't know about it. I would be a big fan of seeing more built environment studies in school, um, but I would also probably probably finish with this. I would very much like to see a degree around the residential side into surveying. I think at the moment we see a lot of of university level degrees, which STEM quantity surveying, building surveying, construction management, real estate. So does cover a lot of pathways, don't get me wrong, but from a residential perspective, there is very, very, very little alternatives out there. Then, yeah, that there's not a degree route where you go down a residential degree route.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

I think that would be there isn't any degree.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Very, very limited options. You don't have your your sort of typical. I mean, I'm this is not it, but let's say BSC honors residential property, you don't see that. We we know that there's very limited options as to how residential surveyors become residential surveyors, you know, it's either through apprenticeships, working with with big companies where they then train, they spend a year or two training, typically get their associate pathway, have a year or two doing that, and then that links hopefully to the charter pathways or the other alternative around the the server course, which then feeds in into again the the residential pathway and getting our ICS accreditation that way. But I would love to see more degree options to get people into surveying as well. Yeah, that of course becomes tricky. I still think they need to be in a firm to get the practical experience. All well and good if you do a three-year degree and you learn about it, but then the first day you get onto a house and you get something complicated and you think, well, I've not come across that before. You you can't beat the practical experience. I do agree. But what's the difference between working in a firm and doing a server course or working in a firm and getting a degree and achieving uh achieving the same thing? I see.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

So the degree could be like a like a part like that you've already got at the university built environment. So it could be while you're working, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Yeah, 100%, 100%. A lot, and a lot of them, you know, uh the the people who we have think over over 90% of the students. Um, I'll not get myself into trouble for the Exact percentage. It's it's more than 90% of the students we have in full-time work. So that they're studying with us on a part-time basis, whether they then get a study day a week to focus on the degree, or whether they do it in in the spare time. It's the the majority are in full-time work or work of some kind. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

I mean, I I yeah, I totally support that. And I think maybe it's also around demand because I I should we get to that stage with sellers requiring a survey up front, I do think suddenly we'll need a lot more. Because if we imagine, I don't know, the stats for thrown them out everywhere about how many people actually get a survey done. It could be how many 15%. I don't know. It's it's not great, is it? It's 20%. But suddenly, if it's 100%, and even if it's not a full-on survey, there's suddenly gonna be a lot more demand.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

There is that, and and on top of that, we we we is no secret to the government targets. I mean, it's another conversation whether or not they're ever gonna hit them. But we know the government targets and the ambition to that 1.5 million homes. There's gonna be more demand. We're gonna need more surveyors. So whether that is for the bank valuations, level two, level three, whatever it may be, there's gonna be a demand. So we're gonna have to see it, and I think we we do need to seriously start attracting more surveyors in into the industry. Um, I think we we have some fantastic surveyors in the industry right now with decades and decades of experience. But what happens when they're all gone in the nicest way? They're not no totally they're not gonna be around for forever. And we're the the the younger surveyors to then kind of come and and fill that gap for from when some of these experienced surveyors leave the industry is is not happening at the same rate that that it needs to. So I'm yeah, of course, naturally as a lecturer, I'm gonna focus on the education piece, but we we absolutely need to be drilling it in from a younger age.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Absolutely massive gap, and that we do have all these retiring surveyors, and it is and and an amazing knowledge, and that's something I think what what would you say? Because I do I think there is quite a few that have considered lecturing actually. Yeah, I don't know what you think is that about that as a transition across.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Please come over. Please come over. Um, you know, I I think it is the the the thing that you get very, very quickly, I think, in in any any university in institutions is that there needs to be a balance, got and I I talk about this quite passionately and and and openly is that what I think some, I'll not mention any names, but some universities have a problem, is that we get too many from industry in that they don't have the let's say the the the academic knowledge and the the academic writing and and the the sort of more technical elements of of academic writing and how that's applied versus then the pure academics who don't have the industry experience who come from you know the angle of attacking everything very purely academically but don't have the the industry balance. And I and I think it's crucial for success in our industry to have the balance where universities are getting people who, yeah, you've got your pure academics who've worked in in lecturing for a long time, they they know the academic system and and how that writing's applied and the more technical elements of it, but then we need the people who they've been there and done this, they see what it's like in the industry every single day, and they can share their experiences and practice and what students are likely to come across in real life. There's no textbook or journal for experience, you know, you can't beat the the the actual hands-on experience in in the industry, and and it again comes back to what I said at the start. What we love to focus on more than anything is that transition of right, well, you've got the theoretical knowledge, we now want you to apply this, and the more and better job we we do of that and getting people ready practically to go out into the work in the working world and and do a good job rather than just being theory, theory, theory, and then the the first problem they come across, they don't know know how to deal with it. While someone from industry would know about common day-to-day issues that they're they're likely to come across and and how to deal with them. So I'd be absolutely for it. We we do get we do get a lot of people from industry and and people who are sort of encroaching on retirement or looking at retirement. Absolutely, they're more than welcome.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah, I just I'd love to download all the brains. I've I've said this a few times because we have got all this, we've got all this knowledge, haven't we? Amazing surveyors of decades, and they've got so much information and uh insight and expertise and things they've experienced the things that you maybe see once in a once in a career, you know, situation. There's so many things, and if there was some way, but I think this lecturing to me is such an amazing way. We I think what's the number one thing I'd like a lot of these surveyors to do is somehow impart their knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah, give give me a shout. Give me a shout. Get in touch with me, I'll see what we can do.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Okay, right. That's what that leads me into. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best thing? Is it the LinkedIn or yeah?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, feel feel free. Yeah, you can you can contact me on on LinkedIn or or my email. I'm I'm I'm more than happy, more than happy to share.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

In the nerds for you.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Yeah, absolutely. But uh yeah, always happy to to hear from people and and get in, you know, people get into it. So many people disagree with me, a lot of people agree, but I think it's it's all about collectively. I think deep down we all want the same thing, whether that is EPCs, own buying, selling, or the education, it's about working sort of collaboratively to to achieve that. How do we get that? How do we achieve that? And I think we've got, in many ways, we've got to work together. I think it needs to come from lots of different angles, lots of different people to promote surveying. That that is the ultimate thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Yeah, and that's that's the number one thing for me with Survey UK and the the surveying community is that is that cross-discipline, cross-industry, just facilitating collaboration. Because yeah, everyone has different opinions and different viewpoints, but they're all they're all valid and they're all important, especially when you look at the buy and selling process. Huge number of stakeholders, but everyone has vested interests. But I think if we can facilitate more people to collaborate, but yeah, I think coming together, especially around education, especially around the imparting knowledge, I think would be and I'd love to support that in whatever way we can through what I'm doing, because I see a lot of people sort of maybe just just retiring and they're just like literally that's it. It's like, no, don't go.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Oh exactly, yeah, don't go, please.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Yeah, we want you, we want your we want your uh um your knowledge. Well, I think I don't think there's anything else, but what I will do is include links on your LinkedIn, your email address, and of course a link to the university of the built environment as well in the show notes. But um, yeah, I've um this has been an interesting one, especially around the UPC for me. Because I do hear about it, and it's interesting in your your viewpoints and opinions on the reforms, but also that impact that it has across the board. And it's also demonstrates the same things that we see a lot across surveying is behaviours and how it's structured. If we don't have processes in place to deter people from bad behaviours, when you've got money involved, if there's none of that happening and you introduce all these new ideas, it's gonna impact people across the board and especially especially the public. I mean, at the end of the day, it's the public that surveying professionals are serving. So, no, I think it's been great, and I I did want to just ask those, and uh you can uh maybe not want to talk about it, but you mentioned basketball to me before we started the call. You have a basketball team, is that yes outside so in there that was a left field thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Uh outside of outside of working, researching, having a two-year-old, a wife, and family life. My my sort of escape and and pleasure is is yeah, basketball. So yeah, outside of working, being a dad, being a husband, yeah. I have a basketball club. So I set that up last year. Yeah, Chesterfield Basketball Club. Um, so yeah, any basketball players out there, if you're in or around Chesterfield, come along, give it us, give us a try.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

That's brilliant. Do you know you're the first across with the basketball? I think uh I did basketball for a little bit at school, I absolutely loved it. And I was like, When you mentioned that, I thought I've got to bring that in somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

There you go, basketball club shout out as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Hobbies, because we're all people, we all have different passions and hobbies outside of surveying. And um I think yeah, basketball, that's that's the first one for me, I think. But yeah, anyone in Chesterfield, is it? Chesterfield.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Yeah, anyone around in in or around Chesterfield, yeah. Do do feel free, get in touch. We've got a website, yeah, more than welcome. It's yeah, I've been going about eight, eight months now. I've set up around about May, June last year. Yeah, we have adults on a Wednesday night and then juniors, Saturday mornings, and right, yeah, busy.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

That's negative. You are busy, aren't you? My goodness. Lecturing PhD, basketball, yeah, dad, and a husband. Yeah, okay, Jordan. Well, it's been great to speak to you today, and thank you for giving up your time today to talk with me.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

No, no pro at all. Thanks. Thanks for having me. All the best.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

You're welcome. I think a lot of people are gonna learn from different students, surveyors, non-surveyors. They're gonna find some really interesting uh nuggets from this session. But thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this is surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we're doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveyed UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today's episode are included in the show notes.