Abducted, Shot, and Left for Dead — A Survivor’s Story

Before “true crime” became a genre… this was real life.

On January 8, 2000, Dan Zapp and a friend were abducted along the Susquehanna River, assaulted, shot, and left for dead.

They survived.

In this episode of Unscripted Turbulence, Dan shares what happened that day — and what it took to live after it. Because survival doesn’t end in the moment… it unfolds in the days, months, and years that follow.

We talk about the aftermath, what it’s like to have your story told by the media, and what that experience reveals about how we cover violent crime. And we sit in a question that isn’t easy to answer — forgiveness.

Dan and I knew each other long before this, back in high school, which makes this conversation even more personal.

This episode contains graphic content.

It’s heavy. It’s honest. And it offers a rare window into survival, resilience, and what it means to keep going after the unthinkable.

This episode is sponsored by Dude Wow Cocktails — bold flavor, real ingredients, and yes… it’s really good.
Get 10% off with code TURBULENCE26. Thanks for supporting the show.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This episode of Unescripted Turbulence is sponsored by Dude Wow Cocktails. Old flavor, no extra ingredients. And if you want to try them for yourself, just head to dudewowcocktails.com. Use my code Turbulence26 and get 10% off. Or just grab the link waiting for you in my bio. Well, we'll be having fun. Sure, we're gonna have a free time. Like you're gonna be talking about such a somewhat dark part of your life and line.

SPEAKER_04 0:40

You might think it would be way darker. Well, yeah, the conversation would be less back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Yeah, I mean. Okay, so are you ready to do this? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. I'm excited, nervous. Sure. Okay. Glad you're here. Welcome to Unscripted Turbulence. I'm your host, Reagan Medgie. Today is somewhat of a high school reunion kind of day. My guest. His name is Dan Zap. Hi, Dan.

SPEAKER_04 1:14

Hi, it's Dr. Dan Zap. Oh, I'm please. Yeah. Darn it. Thank you. Dr. Dan Zap. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Well, you know what? I already messed up for two reasons. One, I didn't call you by doctor, and two, I didn't silence my phone because Oh, you gotta do it over. No, no, we don't.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Here's the thing. So, true story. I had somebody here once and she was doing a do you know what sound baths are? Yes, I do actually. You know, like the sound bath. So anyway, for people who don't know what a sound bath is, is basically a bowl and you and there's like a yoga teacher that instructs it and then bung on the bowl and you know, taps on it and vibrates. Anyway, so she started the session, and in the middle of it, I realized I didn't have my phone on silent. And I'm thinking to myself, dear God, dear God, please, please, God, don't, don't ring, don't ring. And it didn't. And I somehow was able to quietly slip into it. Oh where is my phone? Oh my God. So every time I think about that. All right. So Dan Zap. Oh my gosh. So our conversation reignited. We're friends from high school. Uh conversation reignited acquaintances. Yeah. Acquaintance acquaintances. Acquaintances. Um so we ended up reconnecting kind of like on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Because you reached out to me. I think you'd like to do that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

I was just like, hey, that's really cool. What you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Like that's uh that's neat. And then I was like, one thing after another, I was like, actually, would you want to talk about what happened to you? And you were willing to. So okay. Um, so a little backstory of Dan. Dan, what is because you're doctor now. Um so we're both from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Both went to Liberty High School. Mm-hmm. And then you uh you went up off to college. We'll get into all of that, but right now, where are you located and what is your title? Like, oh sure. Yeah, so we're gonna really go in.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

I'm located in Falls Church, Virginia, which is just outside of DC, still in the Beltway, so that still counts. Um, I live there with my wife, my two children, who you just you just I know, they're awesome. Yep, they are. And I am the senior director of research at a company called Everfi, which creates educational content for children, for teens, for adults. And so what I do is I try to help build the courses and I try to more than that help evaluate what the courses are doing for kids in terms of what are they learning in terms of what they know? What are they changing in terms of how they feel, and then hopefully how do they plan to change their behaviors in the future.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Wow. When you t when you say content, I automatically think of like Instagram content.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

But that's a little more long form, like 30 to 45 minute courses. So our bread and butter is like financial literacy content. So what we'll do is we'll go out to financial institutions or other types of um phil philanthropic organizations and get them to pay for this content to be put into schools so that children and that teachers can distribute it at no cost. Schools are there's no cost to them at all. Kids get access to it for free. And for many states, this helps meet their requirements for financial literacy education. So teachers don't have to think about it. The main thing we find is that like teachers, everyone, parents, students, teachers, administrators, policymakers, everyone believes this content is super valuable, but not everyone necessarily feels confident teaching that to someone else. They're like, oh, I have like $10,000 in credit card debt. I probably shouldn't be teaching you about like about this. But this provides them an easy, you know, plug-and-play way to give it to your students. Wow. You went to school for this? No, I mean I went for applied developmental psychology, and so that's just measuring change as people develop. So jellying change on a short term is, you know, right in my wheelhouse.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Okay. So as um, so yeah, Dan's smart. So um, and I'll be just asking questions. Here's the thing. I told him where the cameras are to look at, and he's here here he knows. Uh-oh. Now, he might know also because he has a background in theater. Oh, yeah. In high school theater. And we were okay, so we were in that play, Our Town.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

Uh no, I wasn't in Our Town. I thought you were in Our Town. I was in um, what was the wedding one? Father of the Bride. And then I was in uh Crazy For You. You were in Crazy For You. No, watching All of You in Our Town, I was like, I thought you were in Our Town. No, I should have been there. Yeah. But like, I no, I wasn't in that uh that way.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

You were in Crazy For You. Funny.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

No, and they um that's where we all had to learn tap dancing.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

It is, and that's why I brought my scrapbook. No, no, no. That's right now if you're watching. This was made by Katie Dean. Oh, now Katie Dean Well, Johnson. So we had um so I I made a portion of this, I added to it, and there's tape, and it says crazy for you. This was from our Yeah, I still have all the posters somewhere. Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna have you open it to where these little tabs are. All right. And we're gonna go down memory lane. All right because this is what we used to do. Do you remember that? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Ooh. Wait, where's my haircut? Oh no, am I wearing the hat?

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Yeah, you are. Oh no, a fucking hat.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

So questionable decision. No, no, no, wait. I'm all the way in the back with Amy. Yes. That's where I am.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you were like leaning in. Yeah. And this was at, I don't know whose house it was. It's in there.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

I want to say it's the maybe the Williams.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Yes, yes, Matt Williams.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

We hacky sacked, jammed to fat PH tunes, and just chilled on the most beautiful day of the year.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, so Katie put. Yeah, yeah. And Katie put like different little quotes. There's like four other pictures in there I want you to see. And this is when we we all got together and got to know each other through like, you know, the cast, and um, this is what we would do in high school theater.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Kerman teaches Danny Zapp to be a WWF wrestler.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah, you're on the trampoline.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Uh-huh. Danny, I don't get that one a whole lot. I love how big pants and shorts have come back now. If I just would have held on to everything. Like my son wants the exact same pants. I'm like, oh, dude, I've had those Jenkos, I had those in high school. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

And you thought, all right, it's not gonna be. Yeah, it's not coming back around. This is stupid enough that this will stop. So you're not in that one, but I am because I was trying to teach Todd Theman Catholicism.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Good luck.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

It didn't stick, did it?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

No.

SPEAKER_04 7:54

Stacia Thompson and Amy Lynn.

unknown 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Oh. Isn't that crazy? Wow. I love both of them. Still talking to Amy. Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah. Amy and uh and Kat. We were always clearly close friends. And there's Dan oh, I'm not even gonna show this picture. And Danny Zapp. Wow. Danny. Yeah. Only my mom calls me Danny. I didn't remember that catching on.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

No, no, it didn't. I don't, I mean, I think it was just kind of a we were such children. Isn't that crazy? Like bringing you right back.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

Yeah, Liberty 1999. That's what the shirt says.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Wow, just a bunch of chinless white dudes. Wow. That was that was fun. That was fun.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

So we, you know, so yeah, Dan has a theater. Theater background. Yeah. Yeah. I do too. That's a shock, but you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:45

Theater background. That's a nice way to put that.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yeah. So well, you know. So we, you know, so that was our senior year. We're all like, you know, wild and young and free. And then we all go off to college. I went to Temple University, go owls. I always say that. Good. And then you went off to Carnegie Mellon. Carnegie Mellon. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Which is a fantastic school, really great school. Very smart school. Very, very smart school.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Someone is smarter than the other one in this room.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

That's scholastics.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

But I didn't go there for any of the really smart things. I went for psychology. So like the social science is there. It's a great school, but it's not necessarily known for its social sciences. So but it was a great experience. I love the city of Pittsburgh. Yeah, met a lot of really cool people and met a lot more theater people. They have a really strong performing arts. Did you do any theater? I did improv. So no. But I got really into improv.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

I mean, improv is cool. We did a little improv when we were in high school theater too.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

Yeah, yeah, we did. So I had some training. So I have an improv background as well. Um look at that. But yeah, we started up our own improv. The one improv group that was there didn't use any swearing, and several of us were like, I can't work under these conditions. I can't.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Oh, that yeah. I feel like the swearing can be a little bit more than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

Yeah, we need to create our own faction. Yeah. Did you? Yes, we did. We did. So we had a short-lived um improv group at Carnegie Mellon. That's amazing. Well, actually, probably left for, yeah, lasted for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Oh. All right. So this is where things get interesting with Dan's story. Um at the time, you know, we're all kind of because it was freshman year. Yes, it was. So when we were on the phone talking about what we're gonna about to dive into, you kind of called it what true crime before true crime was the thing. It was.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So now there's all these like podcasts about it, like not just this one. Right. Like where people talk about what happened because it, you know, it was a crime and it's an interesting story.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah, and I and and let me let me note that I am so glad you're here and you survived it. Me too. Jeez, peesies. When you know, we didn't have Instagram back then, we didn't have Facebook back then, but it was email and AOL instant messenger and how AOL Instant Messenger.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

You know, and that's how we all got to know what was going on. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna I'm going to turn the mic to you. Um, and I'm gonna have you share the story of of what happened that day and kind of explain and go where you feel you want to go. Great, great, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:24

And what when it was and as we talked about, I'm not gonna go into every single detail about it because all you have to do is Google Dan's app and that all shows up. You can easily get the full stories of everything that um that happened, but the AI summary is that I met a lady through AOL Instant Messenger through a friend of a friend, Kate Herman, um, who went to another school, Susquehanna University. So she lived in York, Pennsylvania, and I think over Thanksgiving break we met once in Bethlehem, which is Minoxy Creek, actually. Oh my gosh, no kidding. Oh, yeah, I know Monacasy. Oh, yeah. Like the most romantic place in Bethlehem.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Some decisions made that people got pregnant at Menacasy Creek. Yes. Um this was in this was in to get a timeline here. This was in the fall of 1999.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Yes, this would be in the fall of 1999. It changes over to the year 2000, and I decide I'm gonna go visit her in York, Pennsylvania. Okay. So I take my dad's uh Dotson and drive all the way out to York, Pennsylvania to meet her. Um, get terribly lost because this was like MapQuest era. So like your directions were sitting on pieces of paper next to you.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

You have to try to like look at the road, look at the paper, look at the road.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

As you're flipping through your CD case to like you were really bringing it back. Yeah, you're like, all right, which Dave Matthews is it?

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Like, is it Dave Matthew under the table and dreaming?

SPEAKER_04 12:58

No, no, that's been overplayed at this point. Oh god. Yeah, but then show up there, then lock can um lock my keys in the car, and which is a thing you could do in the past too. And so it's not going great at all. And so we finally get the keys out of the car, and I'm like, let's go. We're just trying to get to know each other better. And so we're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

And we're not mentioning her name just for protecting privacy. For protecting privacy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

And she did not agree to uh to any of this. Um but yes, we decide to go for a walk, and there's actually a river, the Susquehanna River is right by where her house was. And actually, you can see Three Mile Island um wow from just across the river there. So it was like really scenic and and interesting. Um and a gentleman comes up to us and sort of like stops his car and gets out and starts to talk with us. And I'm 18 and naive, and I'm like, yeah, of course, I love making new friends. This is this is great. And so he he lets, he's got a big pit bull that he lets out of the car too to like run around. And I'm like, oh, this is, you know, I can tell the person that I'm with is kind of nervous, and I'm like, you can't, you gotta think the best of people, you know? Like, come on, like let's let's assume the best intentions here. This is just uh, you know, he's seems kind of weird, but this is also Pennsylvania. Like, there's lots of weird people in Pennsylvania. Yeah. Um like us. A little quirky, a little off, but it's okay. And then he um, you know, he chats with us for a little while, and then it gets his dog back in the truck. And what is he talking to you about? He's just just random, just BS, like the weather and the area, like it's very um someone who seems like they just wanted to have a conversation, like sort of doesn't maybe have a lot of friends, and was like just like, oh hey, there's two people who look nice. I have resting friendly face, so this happens to me all the time. Like, whenever and like people will bypass me on the street for other people, like, oh, excuse me, excuse me, can I talk to you for a second? Like, oh no.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I want to know at the end of your trip here in New York City, because you're visiting this weekend or this week, um, how many people do that to you?

SPEAKER_04 15:02

It's a thousand. I have to keep my eyes down because they're just like excuse me, do you know where so and so? That's a mark. That's a mark. I got him, I got him. He's got cash on him. That's just what that's that's my cross to bear. But anyway, gets back in his car, and we're sort of like, that was weird, man. That was kind of silly. Um, what a goofy dude. Like, he seemed kind of off. And then um I think we both sort of mentioned, like, yeah, I noticed there was like um like a case of beer in his front seat, like, you know, but also it's Pennsylvania and it's the weekend, so um, probably not a great idea to drive around with it, but it's not unheard of. Um and then we sort of see him pass once, and it's there's only one way to get in and out of the park where we're at. So we see him pass by us once, we're like, oh, okay, bye. And then he passes by again, and it's like, oh, oh, you're back. That's interesting. And then that's when we start to like pick up the pace a little bit. We're like, all right, this now we're feeling kind of uncomfortable. Are you walking? Yeah, we're just walking. So we're trying to walk out of the park, um, which is sort of set down a little bit as it goes down towards the riverbank. So there's not good visibility to like any of the streets up above. So it is a little, a little secluded. And then he sort of pulls in front of us and gets out, and he has a firearm, and he's becomes very serious all of a sudden. He's like, get in the truck. This isn't a joke or this isn't a movie or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

You can curse if you feel you need to. Thank you. I just want to let you know. I really fucking appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, you can let it out. Like it's totally fine on this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

But yes, he gets out and then he um he gets her into the front, into the cab of the truck. So it's like a pickup truck with like a covered cab, and then he puts me in the back with the dog.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Um Is the dog vicious? Is it growling?

SPEAKER_04 16:46

No, it was a very scary-looking dog, but it was really, really friendly. Like, not, you know, seemed like it was really happy to have a friend back there. Like, not a vicious dog, but you know, I'm not a dog person, so I don't really know. Um anyway, he proceeds to drive us around for a while, and I can hear them conversing in the front of the cab, but I can't make anything out. And also, this is flip phone. This wasn't even flip phone error. This is before phones were cool enough that they could even flip. You was just like Nokia.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah, the Nokia, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Yeah, the Nokia. And so, like, I'm trying to get there's no signal that I can get or anything. Like, I can't I don't know where I am. I'm in a city that I don't know, and now we're driving down a bunch of back roads that I'm not familiar with.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

And how long in your mind is this?

SPEAKER_04 17:35

I mean, for you, it's probably going on for I would say like twenty to thirty minutes we drove around until we ended up in another sort of more secluded wooded area. But again, we're down by the same river again. But it's obviously in a much more rural area. Um, and there's no one around. And then he gets us out of the car and um has us go stand sort of in front of it, like facing the water, and then starts to sort of run through this narrative about why he has to do this. And it's a lot of people are telling me that I have to kill you guys. I'm so sorry. Uh, but your parents owe drug money, and I've been hired to do this, and I don't want to do this, but like I've been told that I have to do this to you. And we're like, we have no idea what you're talking about at all. Like, what can I give you right now? Like, I have a Dell laptop. Does that sweeten this deal at all? Like, you know, you're sort of trying to negotiate anyway at all. And he's just sort of telling us how regrettable this is, but that he doesn't have any choices at all. And during his talks, he's um firing the gun off, like to sort of punctuate the the gravity of the situation. Um, you can also tell that he's not familiar with a firearm either, because like work from Pennsylvania, you know when someone knows how to shoot a gun, and when they fire it like this, and their arm shoots their arm shoots back and they hit the lamp. Uh if there's a lamp, if there's a lamp there and they hit it, you can tell that they have not had proper firearm training. Oh my god. Anyway, we run through this for a little while, and he's like, all right, well, just get back in the truck. And we're not positive what to uh what to do, and I can hear them conversing further in the cab of the truck. The my female companion and the um person picked us up.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Out in front of the truck, and then he took her back into the truck.

SPEAKER_04 19:32

Yeah, and then he put me back in the back again.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

So now, if you guys listening, I I know parts of this story. Many times when people come on the podcast, I don't know the whole deal. Um reading it and what have you. So my reaction is true to what to form here because I don't know all of these very sensitive details. So I d I i my wind is kind of out of me right now because I I can't even imagine going through this, but okay. Okay. Good. Alright, it gets worse.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

So basically, what he convinces my female companion is is that if she engages in sex with him, then he will let us go then. And she, of course, agrees to to save us. So I don't know, I hadn't heard the conversation at this point. I didn't know what was going on, but I had an idea based on motion and things like that. Um and he finishes. They're done. He gets us both out of the truck again, takes us back to the same place in the water, uh, or by near the near the water down by the the riverbank. And he sort of like, you know, he takes my wallet, um, which was corduroy and had an alien on it to give you a sense of what 1999 to 2000 was was like, Velcro. Um and then he sort of gestures for us to like, you know, he's like, I'm I'm letting you go. Like I don't remember exactly what was said, but the insinuation was okay, now I can let you let you go. And so we're walking away. He's like, you know, like sort of walk towards the water, like away from the truck.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

And are you I mean, you probably aren't saying anything to your friend at this point.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

No, we're not saying anything at all. I think we're just trying to gauge the situation like um we haven't spoken to to one another about um about anything, but we're both like, okay, well, cautiously optimistic that this could be over now. Um and then I turn to look back, and the next thing I feel is just like this tremendous force that just knocks me straight to the ground. I don't know if you've ever been shot in the face. No, can't say that that so when it happens, it actually feels like I thought I'd been shot in the chest because it just knocks you down so fast that like you can't really respond to exactly what just happened, your brain's Just trying to keep up. So it knocks me down to the ground. So the bullet entered right back here.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

And then it exited over here through my cheek. So I hit the ground. I'm bleeding. I don't know where I'm shot, but I know that this probably isn't good. And so I start to uh my friend gets down and starts to, you know, to like check on me and try to talk to me. And I'm starting to black out, and I'm just like, all right, um, goodbye. I gotta go. Like I thought that I was I was dying because I was passing out. Um, at that point he fires at us again, and so she's right here. The second bullet zips my ear, so I have a scar like right back here, and then that one goes right through her face and knocks her back into the water. Um and then the next sensation I had was the feeling of rolling, like he was rolling me down into the water. So she's in the water, I'm in the water. I think at one point he fires one more time at her and strikes her like in the leg, like the thigh. And then it's just sort of watching us float away. It turns out the best thing you can do in a traumatic like GSW injury like that is like a GSW, what is that? A gunshot wound. Oh is get someone into cold water right away. Like that slows the bleeding. Like, even though he was just trying to dispose of our bodies because he thought we were both dead, it actually like woke us both up. Like we were both oriented then. Oh, and so we're both sort of floating and we're like mentioning to each other, like, just don't move. Just don't move, just keep floating, don't move. Slowly we float away for maybe a hundred yards or something like that. And we notice that he's gone. And then we see some people, some fishermen actually, who were there, and they're like, Hey, are y'all okay? You know, like you're floating, it's January, and you're floating in a river. Um, so they came out and got us, they called 911, they were absolute heroes, absolute angels, um for getting us emergency services and calming us down and trying to like listen to our hysterical story about what we just went through.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Um, but okay, first of all, if you're in the water and you're motioning each other, like play dead, basically. Yeah, are you holding your breath at this time? I mean, like, where are you how are you floating? Like, how are you face up? That's a great question. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 24:44

Like, I think I was sort of just like, you know, like when you're a little kid and you're sort of like bobbing in the water. And I was just like, just keep your head down, but like keep, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Oh my god. Make sure that you're like, like the dead man's float where you're on the suck. Oh my god, damn.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

It's the one you practice all the time when you're a little kid, is the dead man's float. So comes in, it came in handy this one time. And so we convinced him that, you know, that we were no further a threat. We were able to float away, we were rescued, and we were both able to be taken to um the York County hospital emergency room from there. Her injuries were much more severe than mine. So I got very, very lucky that it punched a hole through my windpipe, it chipped a bert a vertebrae, and then just poked a hole out the other side of my jaw. Well, like I think it might have popped a tooth out, like, but it was probably a wisdom tooth I should have gotten taken out anyway. And I was intubated in that I had like breathing and feeding tubes, but I was pretty uh aware and oriented and awake. She had to be placed into a medical coma because her injuries were so severe and she was suffering like really terrible post-traumatic stress disorder. So what I got to do then was to be able to write down for the police everything that I had remembered and everything I knew. And so they took that, and so this happened on a Saturday, and with the information that I had collected and what they already knew, um they caught him on Monday. They went and picked him up, and it was this really daring like um arrest where they, you know, because he had a whole he had a family and everything. Like he had kids and a wife, and he just went home after this. Like, um, so they like pretended like they were picking the kids up from school and then like jumped out of the bus and and got him. But you know, the the great thing is, is right away they made sure this couldn't happen again. Because what we learned later on is this dude had a history of doing stuff like this or threatening to do things like this. But he did it to you and your friend. Yes, yes, he did. He was successful this time, but not in murdering us. Um we both survived. So that is the the happy part of the story is that there are tons of shootings all over the country every single day. Most people don't survive those shootings. We both went on to lead very full lives, we both have families, we both have children, we both have careers helping other people. Like that's the good news here. And this person is in jail for over a hundred years, will never get out, and can never do that to someone else again. So that's why I try to always leave that as like the message we should take away from the story. Is this stuff doesn't just happen on TV, it doesn't just happen on the news, it happens to people you know, people you love, people you're related to, people you knew in high school that you did plays with. Like it does happen to those people too. And we got very lucky, we're very fortunate that we made it out, and like I can't thank enough the um law enforcement officers and all of the medical team and the emergency crews who who helped us out. There's people I'll never forget in my entire life who you know saved my life and set me off on a path uh to recovery after that.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Oh my god, Dan. Okay. Um, okay, so that's wow. How I don't want to say like, how do you get over something like this? Because that's not the right way. Because like you wanna like a person would be like, How the hell do you get over something like this? I mean, the things that are going through my mind. So uh to backtrack, when you were in the cab, did you try to like signal help to anybody, or you literally you didn't want to make a noise?

SPEAKER_04 28:53

Every time I tried to like sit up, he would sort of yell at me to lay back down. So he was noticing, yes, there were very there was there were things I was looking for back there to see if I could like try to, you know, attack him and get us out of there, like save her. Um there were um I at one point I was like, you know, I could just probably like at a stop, like, because it's just a cab, you know, usually those just open like a flap in the back. I was like, I could probably just jump out at a stop, but then I'd be leaving her entirely alone. Oh. And I was like, I don't want to do that. So um, yeah, there wasn't really anything I could I could do. There's a lot of like survivor's guilt and like a wish that I could have like saved the day there. That had to be something I really had to get over. Um took a long time to be like, why couldn't I save the day? Why couldn't I like fix this? Um, but it just wasn't in the cards, and it could have ended up way worse if the like I would have attacked him and you know, like there was a baseball bat back there. I was never a strong baseball player, and baseball bat doesn't beat gun. So it's it just didn't turn out that I could get us out of it through sheer masculinity.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Or did you at the end when you guys were sticking close together and floating down the river and you had that moment where you stood by you like you stayed by her? I think that was the moment where you have to remember that. I mean, at least that's what I think. Because if if it if if it was different and I was that girl, I would have been thanking God that you were there the entire time as opposed to a part and then it getting worse. I yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

No, it could have gone immensely worse. So Oh my god. Obviously, you know, a very traumatic uh situation.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

When you know, and and when we were on the phone about this, you know, Dan brought up at so many points, the aftermath that TV people don't realize. So this happens and obviously it becomes public knowledge. Obviously, you have a lot of healing to do. So this thing took place this was in January 2000.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

So January 8th, 2000. So just eight days after the turn of the century.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Okay. And then you so there's a there's a point where you're healing, and then people start reaching out and you're trying to figure out and put the pieces like what was the aftermath right after like you get released from the hospital, you're home, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the great thing about the one of the great things about the hospital though is that we got these like hundreds of letters from local people, like kids and just citizens who were just like, I read about this in the newspaper and I'm so sorry, or I saw this on the news and I'm so sorry. And so we have like we have hundreds of cards and letters and stuff that total strangers just sent in because they were like, I'm so sorry this happened to you in my my hometown. Um there's a huge outpouring of local support while we're in the hospital. But yeah, we get out, I go back home, you know, it's not gonna be able to make it back for spring semester. Right. Right? Gonna have to take a little bit of time off. Then you go back to Bethlehem. Go back to Bethlehem, move, yeah, move back in with my parents and try to start like the healing journey. So I start trying to go to some therapy sessions. Um, I try, it's it's a lot of self-reflection at that point. It's a lot of like, at that point, I was really sure. I'm like, okay, so God has saved me for some reason that I need to figure out now. Um, priesthood? Uh is I've never been a religious person, but is there like, what is this higher calling that I'm like still around for? Like, what am I supposed to do? Yeah. Um, but mainly as an 18-year-old, you're just also just drinking and hanging out with friends, too. So that was one of the things that sort of came up right away was like, oh, look at this. Substances make this a lot easier to get through. Like, um, and I had never been a substance user in high school at all. Total nerd. Um, like we would hang out in a quote like Monty Python, like that's how uncool we were. But it became a very it became very easy to um get into certain behaviors to sort of like calm down all of the post-traumatic stress, um, which was a lot easier than the work you have to do in therapy. So did spend an entire um semester there at home, and then in this fall, um realized that I would have to change schools just for financial reasons. Carnegie Mellon is a great school, but very, very, very expensive. And we just weren't going to be able to swing it any longer. And so I wanted to stay close to those friends that I had made. So I applied to Pitt, University of Pittsburgh, right down the street. Um, but I applied so late that there was no more housing available on campus. Luckily or unluckily, the campus actually owns the fraternity houses on some of the fraternity houses on University of Pittsburgh's campus. One of them had an empty bed. They stuck me in a fraternity house that I was not a member of.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Are you kidding? Oh my god, oh my God.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

What fra could can you talk about? Delta Tall Delta, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Jeez.

SPEAKER_04 34:27

And so not ideal. No. Not ideal.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Um, not at all.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

I made a lot of I met a lot of really good people there, but there was also there was a lot of toxic individuals as well. And it was probably not a great place for me to be at a very sensitive turning point in my life and like a relaunch back into the adult world after I had like just come out and been like, this is so great. I love independence. And then like this happens right back into the folds of the family again, and then dumped in a fraternity house.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Of all things, I mean, of all things. Okay. Of all things. So when you when you're going back to school, I mean like when did the media when did you start getting phone calls about your experience and also when you went into the frat, like is your Again, you're 18, 19. Like your opening line to introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

Like, hey, I got shot in the face.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

I'm my name's Dan.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

Like that's uh it is, it is funny.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

It I always think like, you know when I edit these things? I had I had uh another another acquaintance friend sit in the seat and we were talking about addiction, and he has dark humor, which I guess we all have dark humor at the core. Uh-huh. And he was saying things, and I'm laughing. I'm like, I'm not laughing at you or at the situation, but like there is a point where you are laughing at both because it's like Yes. Okay. So, all right.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

So my son had the greatest joke because like I always bring this up. You know, I don't always bring it up, but whenever anyone is like, I meet some new people and they're like, wait, you were on TV, or they hear something about that. I'm like, here it comes. And my son has heard the story so many times that he's like, oh, here's my impression of my dad. Knock, knock, who's there? I got shot in the face. Like that. It's like I'm so tired of hearing the story about how you got shot in the face this one time. Like, isn't it hilarious that something like that could even that becomes boring to our children at some point?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

It's just fun. Knock knock.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Knock knock. A little break here in the action of that heavy story. Um, so when does the media step in and then Oh, right away.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

I mean, that's a huge thing for a small town like York. Okay, Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Were you even out of the hospital at the point they started coming in? What was your experience like with them?

SPEAKER_04 37:06

It doesn't always happen. No, I'm sure it doesn't. No. I think we were pretty protected in the hospital, and then there was a lot of media coverage around like the trial later on. But yes, a lot of newspapers reaching out right away, especially when I got back home. I think the morning call uh reached out right away. There's a lot of other Pittsburgh Pennsylvania-based newsspapers.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah, the Morning Call's in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. It's Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

Um bunch of them reached out. Then like, then you started getting more of the media. I think it was like that's when we started. It was before I think I went back to school in the fall, the Montel Williams show reached out. And you're like, who gives up the chance to be on the Montel Williams show to meet Montel Williams? So they flew me to New York and I was on the Montel Williams show, and it was actually one of those surprise shows where they were like, and bring them out, and they had the people who saved us from the river like come out as that. No, no. We were totally surprised. It was like uh they had like, you know, produced all of that to like they they were like, we're gonna have you on the show and have you and her talk about what happened. And then they surprised us with having those the three.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

So how did they reach out to you? I mean, obviously by phone because there was no other thing. I think it was email. Or email, okay. Did you get a lawyer or anything to be like, is this okay to do? You just you know can't you just went for it?

SPEAKER_04 38:29

19-year-old came. Yeah. And I was like, they're like, you wanna be on TV? And I'm like, yeah, well. And your parents were like, well, it's you know, you are an adult. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. No, but there was no legal or anything like that. And then, like, as I told you, that's when I started to, you know, you get it gets increasingly frequent the number of people who reach out to you and like want you to tell your story. Right. And that sort of next year was when I had that men's magazine I told you about. Oh, yeah, it's gonna talk about it. We won't talk about which magazine it is, but it is a piece of garbage. But they did, yeah. They did reach out and they were like, dude, dude.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

I could like feel it. You got oh, that is so heinous. What happened to you?

SPEAKER_04 39:15

Like, would you want to talk to like us about that? And I was like, I could be in a men's magazine? Like, yeah. That is so badass. My fraternity brothers, like, I'm gonna introduce them all to my fraternity brothers. Like, this is this is gonna be cool. This is gonna be neat. And it was. It was neat. They sent like a young reporter down and he's telling us all these stories about all these other crazy, you know, um, I guess stories. Uh that he's covered. That he's covered.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Um he's like, oh, kind of maybe like wetting the whistle, being like, oh yeah, I've done this and warmed up.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

I just met this guy who um uh sleeps with his horses. He has a horse ranch, and he just like he has sexual intercourse with all of his horses. And he's like, You want to watch the interviews? We could all watch them together. And I was like, I don't I've never seen a horse fucking interview. Like, okay, yeah, sure. And so, like, we're drinking, we're doing drugs with him, and I was like, This is so cool. I'm going to be a celebrity with the reporter.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

You're drinking and doing drugs with the reporter.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Because you're just like, Well, yeah, come on in. Like, this is a frat house. Like, and he's like, Yeah, this is awesome, dude. And then the piece comes out and it's so tasteless. It is so awful. And he physically references like, he's like, Yeah, I met this guy and we hung out and drank and did drugs. And I'm like, Oh, I did not expect that to be in the article. I was kind of gonna show my family this. And they cowered, they they chickened out and they didn't reach out to her, the other, the female victim, and get any clearance from her. So every picture of her was blurred and like her face was blurred, her name wasn't used in any of it. But if you would ever look up me, you would automatically find out who that was. And then they were like, Reagan, they were illustrations like of like the crime scene and stuff. So there's like a drawing of her and I. That's disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

That is absolutely disgusting. There's a reason that piece of trash publication is no longer with us.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

It was bad, but it's I learned a really valuable lesson, which is like you can't trust anyone and not everyone is out for, you know, because what they say is always like, we just want to tell your story and we want to tell everyone about like how brave you were to get through this and how like courageous and like how inspiring this is. But like that wasn't it at all. It was a slasher piece. It was like, you know, there's like literal like blood splatters all over the pages and stuff to like give the, you know, that imagery of it. But I've also had really great experiences.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Talk about those.

SPEAKER_04 41:58

Okay. So we did there was a um 48 hours reached out to us, and they did a full hour-long show, but not just about the the shooting and everything that led up to that, um, but about the criminal investigation and the trial that followed. And so it gave a lot of context and everything. And a lot of like humanity? Yeah, and credence to all the people who like the the the doctors, the nurses, the ER staff, the uh police, the investigators, the legal staff, all of those people got to have a voice too about like this is what we did to try to make this right again. And like, as much as I don't love the police state that we currently live in in this country, I have nothing bad to say about the job that these people did to immediately solve this crime and apprehend that individual so they couldn't hurt anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

And when you saw them come out on the Montel Williams show, what was your first reaction?

SPEAKER_04 42:57

Oh, that was just I'm sure you can see it. Like, I'm just elated. I was like, oh, that's so because we hadn't gone back. I don't think I had seen them since that day. Or like, no, they probably came and visited in the hospital. But they were they're very local to like that area of York, Pennsylvania. And so I had not seen them. It was it was great. It was really nice.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

As a report, a former reporter.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Recovering reporter.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Recovering reporter. I do say that. Recovering. Um 48 CBS 48 hours, they did, they did a tremendous job.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

It was fantastic. It was really great. It had me on the edge of the seat. They told the story in such a way that they kept my survival as like a cliffhanger. Oh, wow. So, like, even I was watching and I was like, oh my God, I hope I pull through. Like I hope I'm gonna make it. They're sort of hinting at like she survived and she was thriving, but like they were like really letting you believe that like maybe I didn't make it after. All of this. And everyone I knew was watching it, they were like, and I knew you were alive, and it still bugged me. I was still like, yeah, oh, I don't like this.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

I mean, I know you survived, and I didn't like when you were telling me, I'm telling you right now, in the beginning, as you were going into this, I'm I'm I'm like, I know you're here. Yes. And and I feel you. I'm touching your leg. I feel you. But I was like, I I was like nervous. It was a weird feeling on the other side over here, trying to hear this whole entire story. It's yeah. Okay. It's interesting. Yeah. Um I want you to be critical of me, not Reagan Medgie. Okay. So I'm not loving this outfit. I know the the barrel jeans. They go into the caprice. I mean, okay. You look, you look great, but when I stand up, it looks better. But um, be critical of the media at that time. I'm just curious because it wasn't all good. And we already talked about the publication, but 48 hours was great. Yes. There were in-betweens too. Sure, sure. As a victim of a heinous crime. I sound like I'm on law and order, but it's a heinous crime. Um what was it like for you dealing with the media at that time? And what could the media have done better, or done less, done more? How should we be better?

SPEAKER_04 45:18

That's a really good question. I think just built with them, Dan. I I think probably giving me some time was probably, and I mean, I know that that's tough because the story's hot and you want to tell it right away and you want to get as you afraid you're gonna get scooped by somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

So you want to, but like really, now that I'm a developmental psychologist, I know that like my prefrontal cortex wasn't even fully developed at that time. And I'm like getting interviewed about a really traumatic event. And so I think the reason why the 48 hours thing was so good is because that was years afterwards. Years. Years. Like how many years? That would have been like maybe 10 years later. Like both the victim and I had gotten married since then. Not we had like to each other. Separate. Yeah. Nope. Not to each other. Um, you can love someone very much and just realize that like you're just yeah, you're just better off um not in each other's lives, but yeah, and then it was able to collect all of the information and it like I was in a much better place, I think, 10 years after than I was six months or a couple of weeks afterwards. Like, I I look back at a lot of the quotes and stuff like that that I had, and I'm like, oh man, I really said that. Like, but yeah, dude, you were suffering, you were going through a lot. Like, you didn't know what to say, you were just telling your truth at that time. But I would say overall, yeah, try to give as much space as you can. And you know, if there's parents out there and they're like, should my child like I would say probably not. I would like give it as much time as you can, let it breathe and let them process it before because that was, you know, the whole experience was jarring enough, and then to be like in the spotlight.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

And then have to relive it almost near in real time because it's not a big thing.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

Yeah, and everyone wants to like go ahead, take me through the story. Start the start, take the worst day of your life, start at the beginning. Go ahead. Like, give me an oh no, you skipped a couple of minutes in there. Let's go back and like ouch. So, yeah, that was another, you know. I don't the story is out there, and you can read every grisly detail if you'd like to. Um, but the story is that she and I went through something really horrible that is a very low probability of occurring to anyone, but we came out okay on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah. I mean, listen, this I think for the media, the story's always going to be there. Yeah. It's always going to be there. I mean, this happened. I'm terrible at math. You're the smart one on the other side. I would say 26. 26 years ago? 26 years ago. You can just take 2000 and add what year it is. And that's how many years. I just got served, and I am not embarrassed. I am not at all embarrassed.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

No, it's fine. But yeah, it'll be um it just but it was just 26 years. Just this January.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

January 8th.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

Yeah, January 8th. So And it's crazy because that used to be a really, really difficult day for me. And the further it gets away, the less it even shows up on my radar, which is great. But that also has taken like 16 years of therapy, too.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

I was gonna say, um, the therapy portion of it. I mean, are you still in therapy? Any triggers you have? Like how is that?

SPEAKER_04 48:33

Um I don't know that they're triggers so much that are directly related to um the shooting itself, but therapy is certainly. I went in there to start therapy because of a series of behaviors I was engaging in. We got past why those behaviors were happening to the core of what it was. Some of that was trauma from childhood, some of that was still trauma from the shooting that I wasn't processing correctly. So it was a lot of stuff folded in on each other, and we really had to work for years and years and years to get out of negative behavior patterns and cycles and really reach deep and start to feel some of this stuff. My big problem was that I was so in my head about it. I was like, cognitively, I can think my way out of this. I can talk myself through my own voice out of this and through to the other side. And the reality was I had to feel my way through it, which was a lot scarier and a lot harder.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

My good. Ooh, okay. See, this interview has gone so quick. I knew this always happens. I need like my own studio. I can ask you like thousands or more questions. Yeah, because they're gonna kick you out pretty soon. No, they're not gonna kick me out. Sometimes I can sneak an extra ten, but sometimes, yeah, because I know I really get into the interview. I mean, this is um okay, so you graduate. I mean, obviously you go through everything, and then life is much different today. Much better today. Oh, yeah. Where are we at with how things are?

SPEAKER_04 50:14

I mean, just I am so happy with my life right now, with my wife, with my children, with my job, with all the decisions that I'm making, the people that I keep close to me, the behavior patterns that I engage in, still not perfect, but who is perfect? I can see, I can see them a little bit more. I have more chance to reflect on them. And it's interesting, there was one of the therapists in the in the hospital when I was in intensive care, you know, would come in and check on me, and she told me, you know, this was days after.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Oh, this is I think the question I wanted to ask you.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

She was like, one day you're gonna be glad that this happened. And I was like, you know, like I'm laughing with tubes in my throat. I'm like, I don't think so, man. I don't I don't think so. I've been in intensive care for two weeks. Like, I don't think I'm ever gonna be glad that this happened. She's like, it won't be now, but one day you'll be glad that this happened. And I am at a point now where I'm glad that that happened because I wouldn't have met my wife. I wouldn't have my children, I wouldn't, everything about my life would be entirely different if I hadn't been through that. And while it was terrible, it also set me on a trajectory to to have a beautiful and full life now. And so it also introduced a lot of hardship that like I may not have gone through that caused me to have to grow in a lot of ways. Yeah. You know, I'm a good looking, smart white guy. Like there wasn't a whole lot of stuff in my way. So challenges can cause us to grow in ways that we never thought we really could. And I never would have like picked that for myself. Yeah. But I am glad that it happened.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

There was another thing that the therapist told you. Okay. And this is, and I was like, as we were getting into the store and I got lost, and I was like, Oh yeah. And I and I just realized realized now. It's so messed up in a way, weird way. It's crazy that she would even say that. Okay. So what at what point, too, did she say this?

SPEAKER_04 52:14

I don't know at what point it was. It would have been sometime where I was still in intensive care. I don't know, it was like before or after they took, it's probably after they took the tubes out, because we could have more of a dialogue. Okay. Then. Oh, well, thank God. Yeah, I think it was like 10 days. She's probably saying these things, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm just writing. Just writing down my responses to things. Um. But she said, I can't promise this'll never happen to you again. And I was like, you're right. You can't promise this'll never happen to me again. And that was seems like an odd thing for a therapist to tell someone who's just been through a traumatic, violent um incident, but it's also really true. It's like, you couldn't have predicted this would happen before. You cannot predict this would not happen again. But it's very unlikely that it'll occur. And I don't know why, but that's always stuck with me that she said that and that it was a harsh truth, but it was absolutely mathematically certifiably correct. I can't promise you this isn't gonna happen again.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

This is an interesting question, I think, because I'm wondering, and I'm trying to think if I was a victim of a crime like this. Has the uh perpetrators uh family ever reached out to you?

SPEAKER_04 53:42

Yeah, they have actually. They've reached out and they've reached out in small ways and tried to say, like, you know, listen, I'm I'm really sorry. Like, I know he was a terrible person. Like, this was my dad, he did this to me. This was my uncle, he did this to me. Like they did like there was there was a change. He had a long history of abuse of inside of his family, outside of his family, violent tendencies and like heavy, heavy drug abuse that was medicating like really terrible mental disorders. So it was really, if if nothing else, the one of the great things to come out of this is this was the end of all of that for him. Is he's finally in a place where he couldn't hurt anyone else. But yeah, I don't hold any ill will against his family. It sounds like they all went through a lot of terror.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Yeah, no, I just didn't I never thought to ask ever in my entire 20-year history when you're with a victim of a crime. I, you know, it depends on what level and and stuff, but you never think about the family of the person who hurt you.

unknown 54:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Because, you know, some in this situation, they had no idea that he would. I mean, that you know, but you know, other times it there could be some other stuff that goes around that you don't want to talk to the extended family. But in this situation, so they reached out to you. Yeah. Like who was the first person, the wife, or like do you remember or how did you think that?

SPEAKER_04 55:05

I think it was one of his one of his children, or it was uh it was either that or I think one of his children had reached out and one of um like a niece or something reached out and basically was like, listen, this guy's been terrorizing my family and everyone around him for our entire lives, and I'm so sorry that you had uh experience that. Like, so no ill will against you know his family at all. It sounds like they were going through their own nightmare of just being around this person all the time. And yeah, I mean I haven't had any contact since the trial. I've wondered about uh uh that probably would have been like 2002 or something like that. Um I've wondered, you know, like what would I say if I went to go see him, but I don't know. It's not something that I feel like I have to do for me. So no impetus to go do it right now.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Do you think you'll ever get there? If you even had a chance, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_04 56:05

I think I would, you know. Like let's say he was like, hey, can I talk to you? Oh, because sometimes that does happen. I would, yeah, I would be open to that. Like I'm in a place now where I feel like I could, you know, there are things maybe I wanna I would want to listen more than I would have anything to say. Like he didn't really I don't know if he has at this point, but through the entire trial he claimed innocence that he was like, I was listen, I got so drunk and I was on so many drugs, I blacked out and I don't remember any of that. So if you're saying that I did it, then I did it, but never took any sort of like responsibility for any of that. So I don't know if that would change at this point or if that would even make any difference to me. Um I don't know. I guess the one thing I would want him to know is just like this is how great my life turned out. Like since that.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

That's that's a that's powerful. Yeah. Last question. Forgiveness. Where do you stand on that? A lot of people who are victims. And if you don't have an answer, you don't need to have an answer. But I just I'm curious because I always find it interesting when people are like, I forgive the person who hurt me, I forgive the person who killed my family, I forgive this, this, that, and the other thing. Are you there yet?

SPEAKER_04 57:23

I don't think so because I haven't really thought about it. That would require some really deep internal reflection on it. And I've put him out of my head. I have spent so much more time forgiving myself for all of the things that I've done since then and in reaction to that, that I forgive me for how I responded in a lot of negative ways. I hurt a lot of people that were really close to me because I was just running away from awful feelings that I did not want to process at all. I forgive myself for those things. I don't I don't know him enough to be able to forgive him for that. And honestly, I think what I would be able to say is I could forgive him for what he did to me, but I don't know that I could ever forgive him for what he did to my female friend. Like assaulting her like that. That's I feel so much worse, so much more insidious, so much more purely evil and damaging than just shooting somebody. So I don't know. Maybe I'll get there. It's not uh like I said, I'm way better at being mad at myself, and so working on forgiving myself has been a lot more of my process.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Well, like I said, I think, you know, for what it's worth, if I were that girl, I would have preferred to have you next to me the entire time.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

Hey, if that's I mean, I've said this before too, is like, yeah, if if me being there kept her alive, yeah, then I'd do it again a hundred times. I'd go through it again.

SPEAKER_03 59:05

My goddamn.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

I'm just so glad you're here. I'm glad I'm here too. And that you wanted to share this story. I just I remember hearing about it and thinking, my god, how? It was like there's no way. And then I was of course talking to Pilot because we talked, we'd say my husband is pilot because you know he's Mr. You know, invisible incognito, Mr. Pilito. So I was telling him, Oh, I have this guest who's gonna be on my podcast, and he goes.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

So you sent me- Yeah, I'm pretty sure, man.

SPEAKER_04 59:49

Yeah, it checks out. It's not a huge, it's it's a flex, certainly, but it's not, I don't think it's a flex I'd make up.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

Like So he so he's laughing. So then you sent me the 48 hours trailer. Yeah. And I sent it to him, I go, I'm pretty sure it checks out.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

He's like, oh. Oh, man. You never know what's true these days, but yes, this was back in 2000 before technology existed.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

So I think we're good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

I think you're good.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:23

I think you're good too. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Oh my god, thank you for being here. Now you're gonna get to I was talking to your wife, and you guys are just gonna be pulling around throughout the city together.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

We're doing all the loser tourist stuff. Like, all of it. We're gonna get one of these t-shirts and like heart meatballs. Are you staying only in Manhattan? You think you're gonna go to the boroughs? Uh, I think we're gonna stay in Manhattan.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

You know what I told her to do if you want to Don't tell anybody. If you want a free trip to go see the Statue of Liberty Hop on the Staten Island Ferry. Oh, yes, I have heard that from other people.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:58

Yeah, well, before I knew that, I paid for a tour. Oh, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

There's other free things.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

There's other free things.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

Alright, well, we're done. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming in, and and mind you, he didn't come in just for this interview, just serendipitously happened. Just there, just kids meant. Yeah. It is kiss me. Thank you so much. And your story is like, ooh, I'm gonna need a stiff drink after this. Yeah, this is just water, huh? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

It's just water.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

I'm making it easy for you. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Alright, well, thank you, Dan. I appreciate it. Thank you, Reggie. Alright. My friends, take what lands, leave what doesn't, and keep moving forward. Follow wherever you're listening, and if you are watching on YouTube, hit that subscribe button. It helps more than you know.