Lost in the Wilderness of the Heart

Pain has a way of exposing what we believe about God. Lynn joins us to trace the arc from head knowledge to heart transformation, and he does it by telling the hardest story he knows: losing his son on a Colorado 14er and facing the five wounds—deceit and denial, fear, anger, sadness, and shame—that followed. Instead of burying that story, he chose to invest it. What we hide in the dark can be used against us; what we bring into the light, God can use.

We explore why the heart sits at the center of spiritual life, and Lynn shares how a familiar parable reframed his grief as a trust from God to steward, not a secret to hide. That shift unlocked a ministry of presence where the goal is not to fix people but to sit with them, ask better questions, and gently ask, “What is Christ saying to you right now?” Freedom looks like honest language, a safe community, and the courage to name what hurts without fear of judgment.

We also unpack the quiet crisis many churches face: a lobby culture that discourages honest conversations that lead to healing. From mountain memories to Isaiah 61’s promise to bind up the brokenhearted, this conversation charts a practical path for anyone stuck in shame, grief, or numbness. If you’re tired of performance religion and hungry for a faith that can hold real life, you’ll find hope, language, and next steps here.

If this story stirred something, share it with a friend, subscribe for more honest conversations, and leave a review telling us what you’re bringing into the light next.

Transcript

Welcome And The Hidden Heart

SPEAKER_02 0:18

You know, our woundedness we'll put in our hand and hide behind our back. And it just sits there and it bothers us. And no, I want to bring it out. What's hidden in the darkness, the enemy can use against us. What's brought out into the light, God can use. And I've seen that in my own story and in my own life.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome to Religion Sucks, the podcast where we ditch the religious performance and get real about what it means to know God. My name's Rich, and I'm here with my wife and co-host Kirsten.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

We have a special guest with us in the studio today, who's going to help us explore some wild terrain. We're going to push the boundaries of the known world with this discussion. No, we're not talking about exploring outer space or the depths of the ocean, but something even more mysterious: the untamed landscape of the human heart. Help me welcome to the Religion Sucks Studio, our friend Lynn Hain.

IPA, Patience, And Spiritual Parallels

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Hello, Lynn. Thank you for having me. So glad to have you here today. Well, Lynn, before we get to the heavy stuff, I need to know what's the secret to brewing the perfect IPA? Because you make the most incredible home brew that rivals the stuff that you can buy in the stores. And more importantly, I want to ask you have you ever had a fermenter blow up on you?

SPEAKER_02 1:47

I've not had a fermenter blow up. I've had them like overflow with foam.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

That's nasty. I have had a few bottles explode, but I've I've learned my lesson, and that would be my answer to your question is take your time, don't rush it, and let things happen the way they need to happen. Oh, there's some spiritual parallels to it.

Early Memories Of God

SPEAKER_01 2:09

There is. Lynn, what is your earliest memory of God?

The Heart In Scripture

SPEAKER_02 2:24

I I grew up in a nominally Christian home. Uh my parents took us to church for a while. It was a social environment, which it was in the early 60s. Um I was telling somebody about it uh just the last couple of weeks. Is Christ was hanging in the closet, and on Sunday morning we would take him down, put him on, we would go to church, and we would come back. And and that was was Christ for us. But I was in Sunday school and I was hearing stories from the Bible, and there was something there that caught my heart. I I would say it was seeds planted because it didn't go terribly deep. But as I got older and and life happened, it's like there's something I believe is true, and I'm going to explore it flour further.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Aaron Powell Well, the heart, you you mentioned the heart, and it's a lot of something that a lot of people don't understand is that everything we do flows from our hearts. And our hearts are kind of the command center of our behavior, our outward behavior. So when did that idea become real to you?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Aaron Powell It wasn't until college. And uh honestly, in heartbreak with a girlfriend and with friends, quote unquote friends who weren't friends at all. And I realized this is not real and I want something that's real. So I turned to God, I just gave him a chance, put that in quotes. And uh he came through. Within a week, my life had turned around, and that was undeniable. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, the outward change that came from what was going on inside. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

That was cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

So you asked about the heart, and and I I did some research on this and and had a couple things. Uh, because I do believe uh that the heart is central to how I act and the decisions that I make. Um and as I looked uh through scripture, Jeremiah 17, 9, the heart is deceitful above all things. That's scary if what I do comes from my heart. Yes, I have a head thought, but I have a heart thought as well. Uh and so I'd say that's evidence of the sinful nature. Uh Matthew 15, 19, out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. Psalm 51.10, David says, Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. And so there is something that God does in that heart space. And as I've come to understand this, that's that is the redemption that I have as a Christian man. Yeah. And then Proverbs 4.23, you know this. Above all else, guard your heart for everything you do flows from it. So, in that sense, I I see salvation as being a heart change.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

That is, it's interesting. It is very alarming when you think of someone who still has an unregenerated heart, and it is sick and it is deceitful, and yet the whole culture is saying, follow your heart. What does your heart tell you? You know?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Uh but thankfully, when you do come to faith in Christ, God gives you a new one. He takes out that old heart of stone and and gives you one of flesh and one that he can work with at least.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

So But the heart of stone is is unmoldable in the the heart of flesh in in Christ's hands. I go to the the image of the potter in the clay. It is moldable and it's changeable. And that's uh that I'm grateful for.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah, thank God for that.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Sixteen years ago, something did happen that split your life into kind of the before and the after. Why don't you tell us about that story?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Okay, well, I'm gonna take you back a little bit further. About 2004. Uh I had a son, uh, we had a son named Kevin. Uh, he was coming into his adolescence and wasn't a super sports guy, but I wanted to do something kind of to just build father-son relationship with him. And so we decided to climb a 14er in Colorado, and that's a mountain above 14,000 feet. And uh, so I took him up. He was uh approaching 13 years old, if I remember right. And uh so we decided to climb Long's Peak.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Wow.

The Accident And Five Wounds

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Which was crazy. We didn't pick one of the hardest. It uh by the time we got through, we had gone 17 miles. Wow. You know, seven and a half to the no, I think seven and a half to the top and then back, and then a mile in altitude climbing and and descending. Uh when we did that, he found something in his heart that connected him with God. And I'll bring that to him. He he loved the mountaintops, and so by the time uh he graduated from high school at 18 years old, he'd climbed 37, 38 of those Colorado 14ers, many several times. And so he loved it, and uh he took his faith onto the mountain and he experienced God on the mountain. What happened uh in 2010? He had just graduated from high school and he had two passions. He was going to pursue ministry in some capacity. Um, so that was his his college goal. He was going to go to uh Biola, the Bible Institute of LA. Uh but he also was going to finish up his Colorado 14ers in that summer. I think they're 54, depends on how you count them. Uh, so that was his goal. So uh in early June, about a month after he graduated, uh, he and a buddy went down to Alamosa and climbed a couple mountains on on a Monday, and we talked to him that night, and he was super jazzed about it. And he was going to climb one of the harder mountains, uh Little Bear, uh, the following day on Tuesday, uh, June 15th. What happened is as he climbed up to the top, they they found it to be very icy. It had kind of snowed and sleeted the night before. And so they came to a stop and and were deciding whether to go on or just wait it out and see if uh it would melt off or if they just turn around and go back. And something happened to the ledge that he was sitting on, and that ledge broke loose, and he fell down the mountain. And by that evening, when they finally got to him, he had died. It changed my world.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

And uh I'll get into this a little bit later. I'm gonna talk about five wounds down the road here, but uh nothing specific about these five, but uh these are ones that I've come to know. And and the first one is uh deceit and denial. So in that loss, I was gonna be the the strong Christian man. Uh that's not what I felt on the inside. The second wound is fear. It took most of a day to get the news because the rescue team had to uh to reach him, and there was a lot of issues with that. And they we didn't hear until about nine o'clock at night and and we learned about it about noon that day. Uh so I was living in the fear. Uh the next one is anger, and that is something that I wanted to deny, but I'm angry that my boy is gone. Uh third one obvious or the fourth one obviously is sadness. This is a child I helped raise. I was a stay-at-home dad for a long time. And we were buddies. And then the f the final one is shame. I taught him to climb mountains. I built within him, although it was part of who he was, I built him a passion to do this, and that passion brought him to his end. So I was a wounded man after that happened, and it took me eight years to figure that out and to come to peace with it. And I'm still not at peace. If you can't hear that in my voice, it's there. But I I understand who God is. And we'll get into that.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah. You know, I've heard it said that when we go through loss like that or adversity, it it really reveals what's in our hearts. Was there anything surprising to you, you know? Things that you learned about yourself and that.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

I I think, and this is in r retrospect. My faith was a head faith. That I understood it on paper.

unknown 11:59

Yeah.

Head Faith Versus Heart Faith

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Losing Kevin made no sense. That hurt my heart. Yeah. The God that I understood in my head would not do this, would not allow this to happen to me or my family. And when it happened, I was dying on the inside. And it I could read and I could could share. I had a lot of support from from people, but I didn't have someone who could walk with me in that very heart of pain that I had. As I think about it, my head faith was not big enough to allow for a God who would permit something like this to happen. Over time, I realized that my understanding of God was limited. It was contained to a perfect world, and we don't live in that perfect world. I don't live in that perfect world. And so it took some stretching and some unusual turns to open my heart to say, okay, God, this is part of what you did. But that was a a very painful journey to get there.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah, because I imagine in the middle of that nightmare. You I mean, did you even sense God was there?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

I I would say I knew it. And specific words there, I knew it in my head.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Just in your head, yeah. You can acknowledge that, of course, God's here.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah. Um but it doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

And and that's the hardest thing. And I've seen this in a lot of people. And when God doesn't make sense, there's a choice you have. And mine, I had a head choice to continue on until God did something, but I was at a bad place. I was super depressed. I isolated myself. And I ended up, you know, going to my doctor and trying to get antidepressants, something that would fix this. And obviously nothing of this world would do that.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

This is kind of an offshoot, but what what gave you the impulse to isolate during that?

SPEAKER_02 14:20

I think I'm generalizing here, but the culture I grew up in is everything's fine. And if you have something that's not fine, you're divergent. To use a modern movie acronym. And the people that I talked to, I had two reactions. One is I don't know how to handle that. Or the other one is, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, and this pity. I didn't want either of those extremes. So it it was isolating in the sense that I didn't want to be pitied, nor did I want to be ignored. And it uh it has become much different now, but at that time I wouldn't want to talk. I didn't want to be the guy who lost his son.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

I think it's a skill we desperately need to learn in the body of Christ is how to walk with people through suffering and be faithful companions.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Not be reciters of Hallmark.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

No, but just be present with people and you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

I remember you, Rich, saying, I went to the store to find a card, and there's no card that says this sucks.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

And maybe there's there's a an opportunity for a business.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Honest greeting cards. Honest greeting cards.

Isolation, Presence, And Real Companions

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Well, I'm already putting out there that religion sucks, so yeah. No, there you go. This sucks. Well, since then, I mean, how has that loss changed the way that you see people who are are barely holding it together? I mean, how did it change your understanding of what people need when they're in pain?

SPEAKER_02 16:10

I don't have answers. I wasn't looking for answers in my pain. And so simply being there, that is that's the antidote to the isolation that I was feeling and and sinfully looking for. That's a funny way to say it, but um I need to know that people care and I'm not looking for words that will make it better. If I had the words to make it all better, I would give that. I would write a book and and retire a millionaire. I don't want to retire a millionaire. I just want you to know that I'm there. And not only that, I understand to the level that I'm able to. And I will be with you. Uh I will not taking a uh a passage from the Bible, I will not leave you or forsake you in this.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

That's so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Yeah. Uh if we're to be Christ-like, that's what I should be doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, amen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And I'll I'll come over and have a beer or two with you, but not three or four like you're probably wanting to have right now.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

True that. So I'm just wondering what has shaped your heart the most in the last few years, recent, you know, recent history. It could be something positive or difficult. Like what how do you see the Lord as the potter working in your heart these days?

Redeeming The Story: The Talent Parable

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Um It's interesting on the eighth anniversary of Kevin's death, so it was 2018. Um and I remember the day very specifically. I I had written on his Facebook memorial page, well done, good and faithful servant. And I believed that. Kevin was a man of God. Um, he pointed people to God when they they would climb mountains. Uh, he'd meet up with a group of hikers, not necessarily Christians, and he would share his faith, just talking, doing life. Uh so I believed that. And and after I had posted that, I really had a sense that God said, you need to look into that story a little bit more. And that's Matthew 25, uh the parable of the talents. And talent is is a monetary value. So the master had three servants and he gave them different talents. To one he gave five, to one he gave two, and one he gave one. And uh the two two servants with the five and the two talents invested them, doubled them, and the master said, Well done, good and faithful servant. And and I I think that applies to Kevin. Uh he had what God had given him, and he was investing that and he was growing that. Uh, but then there's the the one servant who decided that his master was kind of harsh. So what he was gonna do, just bury that in talent. And when his master came back, he'd unbury it, dust it off, and just say, Here you go. You know, I didn't lose anything. When I sensed that. And I wasn't thinking of it when I posted on Kevin's Facebook. What if what God gave me was my story of my loss? And am I going to just isolate, bury it in the ground, not share it with anybody? Yeah, I did that for eight years and it just killed me day by day, a little bit over time. But what I heard is God saying, What if you take that talent I've given you and you invested it in others? Do you not think I can't do something with that? So that's something I've been able to do. It's hard. And and I don't do it, you know, just willy-nilly. I will sit down with people. And it's hard. You can see in their eyes, it's like, I don't know how to handle this. But if they're going through something, all of a sudden we have a connection, a connection of pain.

unknown 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

And that's not a fellowship, that's not a church I want to be part of. Right. But actually it is. Because pain is something in the people I've run across, it is universal at some level or another.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Well, that's a that's a good opportunity to shift gears here. So you you counsel guys through Marked Men for Christ. So, first of all, why don't you tell people um what that ministry is?

What Is Marked Men For Christ

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Okay. Uh Marked Men for Christ is a ministry that was uh established in Colorado. Shout out to Colorado. Yeah. It's now global. They have a sister ministry called Women's Walk with Christ.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Um what they do uh is they have an opening weekend, which is a Friday night, all day Saturday, and half day Sunday, where we intentionally go into the woundedness that people have. And I talked about the five wounds earlier. It's uh deceit denial, fear, anger, sadness, and shame. Okay. And it's intentional and open and we have permission to share those things in our life. And especially for guys. I don't have a language to speak of any of those things specifically. Anger may be the uh the only one. I know how to be angry.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Got that one figured out.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

That's actually, and as I've learned about it, that's the one emotion that I have freedom to express whether I'm feeling any of the other ones or any of a plethora of other feelings. I can be angry and that's that's okay. It's not okay. It's not healthy. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

So you mean like society approves of that one for a guy?

SPEAKER_02 22:26

I don't know if it it's approved, but that's what guys have learned how to express. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

It's expected.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Yeah.

Naming Wounds And Finding Language

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Uh but that that's not healthy. And for me, I I am a an internalizer. I stuff my anger. And uh I can do that just so long, and then it starts coming out in very unhealthy ways toward my family, toward my friends. And as I've I've worked through marked men, I hear this over and over. You know, marriages that are are failing, parents who are estranged from their children, uh, even work environment, it's just toxic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

So how do you go from surviving your own heartbreak to volunteering to walk in other people's?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Gotcha. Uh well, it was Markmen that started me on the road to my own peaceful understanding. It was at a Markmen phase two. So the the first weekend's called a phase one. That's at three days. But you know, as opposed to a lot of men's ministry, you go up to have a great weekend, you come back home, there's nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Follow-up. Coming off that mountaintop experience.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

About a week later, you're back where you started. Yeah. Uh they have continuation. They have a phase two and they have a a phase three where you continue the journey that you're with other guys who are learning a language. None of us uh is doing well. Uh and yeah, as they say, our cup fills up with junk over a period of a week or two, and we can get together in the phase three, I do this. Uh, you know, something has just set me off in my home or at my work uh or just in my life, and I get to share it with guys in an open and you know, uninhibited manner. Uh no condemnation there. Uh, and I can empty that out. I'm not there nor are they there to solve each other's problems. Uh but to put that those things that are in encroaching on our peace and on our relationship with God out there and get perspective on them. One of the things we talk about is, you know, our woundedness we'll put in our hand and hide behind our back. And it just sits there and it bothers us. And no, I want to bring it out. What's hidden in the darkness the enemy can use against us. What's brought out into the light, God can use. And I've seen that in my own story in my own life. And so it's like this is what God can do. That's the talent story again.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

From what I've heard of the ministry, there's guys from all walks of life. You know, do you find that there's a commonality? That there are some experiences that are universal?

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Uh I think yes, to answer your question very simply. Um I don't think there's anything we experience, you know, in a fallen world that doesn't go against what we think should be.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

And so I've talked with I've I've staffed now 20 times. And uh staffing means I go up and just get to be part of this experience for other men. And uh honestly, I pay to be able to do that because I think it's so important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Is it healing for you? Oh, absolutely.

Light Over Darkness: Sharing Our Pain

SPEAKER_02 26:07

And that's where I can share my story a little bit. But I also can just listen to a man and I can can sit and look him in the eyes, and as uh he is sharing kind of the darkest, hardest part of his life. Um he doesn't see in my eyes any shame or judgment. No. It's you know, your story's a little different from mine, but you are experiencing a loss of some sort that I can understand.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

And not only me, it's nothing about me, it's about God.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

And uh I take this back to what did God feel when he let his I hate that word, he allowed his son to die on behalf of us. That heartache, honestly, I get. And that's the type of love he has. And if we're called to be followers of Christ, then who am I not to love my brothers and sisters?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Who are in that that place?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

It's such an important ministry because guys are for some reason, especially men, I feel, are so terrified to look at our own hearts and and open up about that, right? I mean, we'd rather binge Netflix, you know, scroll so scroll social media. We'd rather work 80 hours a week. Anything to avoid letting God shine a light into our dark corners of our of our hearts and our lives. You know, why do you why do you think we run from this? I mean, this isn't just men either. It's it's women as well.

Common Struggles And Gentle Eyes

SPEAKER_01 27:47

But no, but I think it's more men. In general. Women are more social and more verbal, so we tend to like rub some salt on it.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Or just not salt, but rub some dirt on it and walk it off.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Well, and you uh women have the language to share that. I come back to that and I'm I'm aware that's we sure do talk a lot more. Yeah, we do. I didn't say that.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

You have you have two daughters at all. So there's been a lot of talking over these.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Drop of testosterone in a sea of estrogen here.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

So it's I think because we we don't have the freedom to share the hurt. Uh one of the things I've said is what I've seen in Mark Men is the ministry does what a church should be doing, but isn't. And that sounds really condemning, but you don't go into the church lobby on a Sunday morning and say, you know, hey, uh I'm struggling in my marriage. No, you're gonna have a a border around you of about 20 feet, nobody wants to talk to you. Uh but that is happening. You know, so church should be the place for wounded people to come and find healing. Amen. Yeah. But you know, we're we're very social and and we put on our pretty faces on Sunday morning or whenever you go. Yeah. And that's not allowed. And and so I see this as just building that isolation. I come back to it. Um if you're hurting or if something is not going right, nobody wants that's not fair, but nobody wants to talk to you. At least that's my perception. Yeah.

Why Men Avoid Their Hearts

SPEAKER_01 29:30

So and I notice just observing the male creature, at least the one that I'm married to. It it seems like often maybe guys have a harder time articulating what it is there. Like I can tell when something's wrong with you, dear.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

But I can tell you don't know what it is yet. So I just kind of have to sit quietly and pray for a few days, and then you'll be like, I know what's been bothering me, but it takes time to be able to, like you said, give language to that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Stop dragging my knuckles and understand.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

No, I mean, it's hard for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Grunting and work it out.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Well, and it's you know, for me, it I I can say I I'm not something's wrong, but I don't know what it is. Uh and it it takes time, but then to be able to express it. And and one of the most important tools that we have in Mark Men is just asking questions. I don't come in and and tell anybody what they should do. It's like uh what's going on? Express that feeling. You know, where do you feel it in your body? And something they do is to uh visualize it. What color does it have? That that's just completely all alien language to me.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

But I imagine it helps.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

It does help.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

And some guys, it's like that's not how I think about it. And it's like, that's fine. Yeah. Um, but something we also do in talking about we bring a guy down to the the core issue or the subcore issue wherever we go. I'm not gonna tell you, okay, then you need to. That that's not my place.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

What I love and what what is so powerful is say, okay, what is Christ saying to you right now?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah.

unknown 31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

And what I hear guys say, they know exactly what Christ is saying and what they need to hear. I don't have those words.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

That's amazing. It is. That's so cool. That's the next level. That's like, I'm not the Holy Spirit, but what is he telling you?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

You know, but the Holy Spirit is is uh prompting me to ask a specific question.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

That reveals the heart.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Isn't that okay? That's what we have found in some of the kind of biblical counseling we've done with people is it's all about asking questions and then praying that the Lord will reveal that person's heart to them. You know, why it's so hard for us. But God is so good, it's amazing.

Beyond The Church Lobby

SPEAKER_00 32:02

So being a pastor of a small church in town here and and uh completely understanding what you're talking about, how in the church lobby everybody's put her there, pal, and and uh just putting on their happy putting on their happy face. And and uh if you just broke down and said, I'm really struggling. How are you doing, Lynn? I'm really struggling in my marriage. I'm not saying that you are, but um, I'm really struggling in my marriage. Yeah, you'd have this huge circle around you and nobody would engage. And and uh but what's uh so what's the and and I get it, like it's Sunday morning, we're you know, we're there to to worship, we gotta get into the sanctuary you know, the sanctuary to worship spirit to begin, or the sermon's there, or we're hungry, we want to go eat. You know, what's uh what's a good practical way of engaging, or you know, maybe that's not the place, but would uh like a follow-up, like what would be a good way to to help that person to communicate, to find that language, to do that if the lobby's not the the appropriate place for it? Or maybe it is, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Aaron Ross Powell No, I don't think the lobby is. But the lobby is the place to say, hey, I'd like to get together. Let's let's go have a coffee or lunch or for for you, rich a beer.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

What would be a way to like get a just so if someone is struggling, how would they even know you're open to to be someone to talk to and to be able to open up to, you know, like because maybe somebody's nobody wants to hear this or I can't. You know, what's something that you can just put out there for for people to even that they would even know to come to you to ask?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

That's hard. Uh one is I believe in in something I call or a a church I went to called relational discipleship. If I don't have a relationship with you, if I haven't even asked about, you know, how are you, how's your family, if I haven't taken the time to invest in you, you're not gonna tell me anything. Yeah. Um it is is building that, but I've also seen, and this happened within the last month, there was a guy who was hurting. And just to open my eyes and to look at this man, it's like there's something going on right now. Um just say, How are you doing? And and this was in a Mark Men sitting, he actually said, I'm not doing very good.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah.

Intentional Relationships And Care

SPEAKER_02 34:26

You know, to have the freedom to be able to say that. And so, you know, at that point, we were in in the middle of something. So I it's like, let's let's grab lunch next week. And and that is the the relationship building that I think is fundamental. What did Christ do? He met with people in those those situations. I mean, think about the people he hung out with, those those who are in physical need, who are caught in incredible sin, who are ostracized. And did he say, well, you know, have a nice day? No. Yeah. He he got into their lives. He had dinner with them, he ate with them, he hung out with them. And and for me, that's that's the calling God has on my life. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

And I suppose if you're just a a consumer Christian, where you're just going to church to check a box or just uh to go in right as it's starting and leave as soon as it ends, you know, you're not building those relationships and not having those opportunities to even know somebody enough to to uh to go out and have lunch or have coffee at another time too. So it probably takes some intention on both parts, both on the on the person that could help and and uh and the person that needs the help. That's that's good. That's helpful for helping me process that.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

We're all gonna be both at different points in our life. Absolutely. Like you said, to be intentional to build those deeper relationships. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: What what have you found are some of the benefits of letting God examine your heart and take you to those deeper places?

Mission, Overcomers, And Walking Valleys

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I'm gonna answer you kind of in a sideways way, if that's okay. Um of the things that uh we work on in Marked Men is a mission statement. So I have a mission statement for my life. So that kind of answering your question, this is what drives me uh in life these days. And so my mission as a marked man for Christ, I co-create. So with Christ, I work to create a world of overcomers. I love that word. I love that. Over those who love God and others well, and those who strive to know God better by growing the gifts God has granted me, that's uh the Matthew parable of the talents, walking with others through life's darkest valleys, which is what I will do. I I have no problem going there. It's hard, but you want to be with somebody on those valleys. And then speaking the truth in love. Uh and so that has opened the door to me being able to just take what God has given me to do what the uh the masters called me to do and to invest it to to bring light into darkness other people and to encourage them. Yeah, I'm not there. I will not fix any problems, but I will help them anybody know that they are not alone and that I have seen over time, you know, it is not, you know, I'll I'll give you the words of life. No, I don't have those, but I will give you some perspective that God is going to make this horrible thing right now change if you just keep your eyes focused on Him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

If you could narrow it down to one thing, I don't know if there is one thing, but what brings freedom to these guys? What brings freedom to you? And I'm not asking what makes them behave better. Um, I'm asking what sets them free from the inside out. Sure.

What Freedom Actually Feels Like

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Oh, that's a hard word to to put. It is your own word, freedom. It is freedom to express what's going on without condemnation, without judgment, without any expectation other than I get it. I I may not be going through exactly what you're going through, but I understand my own fallen nature, I understand loss in my life, and God is still bigger than this. So I t I talk about God not fitting into my preconception. Now I have now a bigger, it still needs to grow, understanding of who God is, and the fact that he can allow the hard things in life and redeem them. I love that word for his good purpose is life-changing. Yeah. And I want to share that with anybody I can talk to.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

And I imagine the freedom to just be able to express what you're feeling and what you're thinking and what's going on to God, you know. Yeah. That's got to be something new for a lot of people too, just to be able to like clearly just feel that freedom to to communicate with him and others. I do want, you know, all everybody listening here to understand that freedom in Christ isn't behavior modification. It's not white knuckling your way through life hoping you don't screw up.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Oh, oh. Well, we we better wrap it up. But closing thought, if if you were talking to our listeners right now, there there's somebody who they're stuck in the wilderness of their own heart. Maybe it's loss or shame or you know, whatever it is, they don't know what to do, they're just stuck. What would you want to share with them?

Hope For The Stuck Heart And Isaiah 61

SPEAKER_02 40:06

So your pain is unique to you. And there's nothing shameful about that, there's nothing wrong about that. But God is still God. That He can take whatever you're going through, and eventually it is that horrible process between what you're feeling and where you are going, where you will finally see what God has done and what He is doing in your heart and how He can use that for other people. Uh I know guys who have been uh who have come out of addiction, who can uniquely speak to other guys who are facing you dick addiction. Uh there is nothing wasted in God's economy. You know, yes, I make my own decisions or or the world happens in the case of Kevin's fall. Um but to bury it is not investing what the master has allowed.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Even our sorrow doesn't belong to us.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

No. I don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Let me share one other thing. I I ran across this today. It's Isaiah uh 61, and and these are words that that speak to what I see God doing. And this is a promise. They're not where this promise is going yet. But Isaiah says, The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and opening of the prison to those who are bound, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, to grant to those who mourn in Zion, to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit, that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he, God, may be glorified. Wow. I I'm sure I've read that before, but it hit me today like a ton of bricks. That that's that encompasses what I believe God has called me to do.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Thank you for sharing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah, thank you for being real with us. And I mean, this is the kind of conversation that doesn't happen in church lobbies, you know, but it's exactly what people need to hear.

Closing And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Well, faithful listeners, if this if this conversation has stirred up something in you, maybe you're realizing your own heart needs some attention, or you're seeing that religion really does suck, it's not gonna help compared to knowing Jesus. We would love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Yeah, so you can visit our website, religionsucks.co. If uh if one of our male listeners is uh interested in in uh Markmen for Christ, how would they find out information about like maybe the five phase one weekend or markmenforchrist.org, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Look it up on on Google. You will find the website.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

I want everybody to remember: God's not impressed with your performance. He's after your heart. Thanks for listening to Religion Science.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

See you next time. Or hear you next time. Hear you next time. Talk to you next time.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

That's creepy.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

We'll be back soon. Thanks.