Grace Over Grind

You can believe all the right things about Jesus and still live like God’s love is a paycheck you earn. That’s the tension we get into with Timothy White, whose faith started early and sincere, then slowly drifted into performance-based religion, people-pleasing, and the constant pressure to “hit the mark.”

We talk about how legalism actually grows: not always from bad motives, but from a good desire that gets nudged off-center by pride, fear, and self-justification. Timothy shares what it felt like to live with a mental checklist of spiritual rules, how church culture can intensify that pressure through control and status, and what happens when you finally get tired enough to swing the other direction into apathy and distraction. Along the way, we touch on church hurt, a painful season of family grief, and the quiet ways God’s faithfulness can show up when you don’t have much left to give.

Then the conversation turns toward hope and real Christian freedom. Timothy describes a simple turning point on a long run when his music cut out and silence forced an honest question: how can I hear God if I’m always distracting myself? From there we unpack grace as more than forgiveness, the gospel as union with Christ, and spiritual growth as surrender rather than willpower. We also share practical next steps for anyone questioning faith, including where to start reading the Bible and how to spot your own “check engine light” when you’re sliding back into performance.

If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend who feels burned out on religion, and leave a review so more people can find the freedom of grace.

Transcript

Welcome And Hairline Icebreaker

SPEAKER_00 0:23

God has all the stuff that's even if you're the one out of the nine discountable and he's gonna continue to pull you back to it.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Welcome to Freed Indeed, the podcast where we ditch the religious performance and get real about what it actually means to know God. I'm Rich. This is my wife and co-host Kirsten. We genuinely love that you're here today.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Today we have a special guest with us in the studio, Timothy White. Welcome, Timothy. Thank you. Um, we've known you for about what, six years? Yeah-ish. Yeah. That's crazy. Well, you you have a really powerful testimony about leaving performance-based religion and experiencing God's grace, and we can't wait to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah. Well, before we get to any of that, I have a very important question. You are a, you know, a good looking guy, a young man with a full head of hair right now. I have to ask, what's the plan when that starts going south? I've already shaved my head bald once, so your dad's bald, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I've seen your dad. Are you hoping it's gonna be on your mom's side that you your hair comes from?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

And you know, I care about it less now, believe it or not. Ever since uh shaved my head once, and I was like, okay, I'll be I'll be okay. Yeah, I don't have like a lumpy head, so thank goodness. I'm glad.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

We ask everyone who comes on the show the same question to start things off. What is your earliest memory of God or your earliest experience with religion?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So those are actually kind of like two separate uh occasions. Um I remember probably my my earliest

Communion And A Child’s Wonder

SPEAKER_00 2:20

memory with God. I was about seven years old. And it was actually during like uh we were at church, we're taking communion. There's something about it that like really just like hit me full and like where I was like crying in church, and I remember my mom talking to me about it afterwards and was like, hey, what was up with that? And as well as I could elaborate as a seven-year-old kid, I was just like, you know, it's I don't understand why somebody would sacrifice for us. And it's like, because again, that was you know, prior to me coming to an understanding of what salvation is, and I was just like, what would what did you know what did God gain from that? And you know, it still is something that I, you know, sometimes question.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Completely figured that one out yet. Yeah, yeah, but me neither.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

But yeah, and then my first experience with religion was um kind of self-imposed. I came to faith very young. Um, it was very shortly after that experience, actually. It was about seven years old. And it wasn't until I was about ten that I started to really just like, okay, I gotta, I gotta hit the mark, I gotta set these rules for myself and I gotta do this, this, this, this, and this. And that was something that I would say, I mean, honestly, like, I don't I don't think I've ever fully, you know, been able to surrender that that mentality and that attitude. Um, but it's something that I would say was was very strong and prevalent through, you know, my teen years and early 20s.

unknown 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

You had the Moses action figure and the the Ten Commandments up on the wall and all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah. We had a uh little Ten Commandments figurine that I put up on my school desk.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

That's adorable and creepy. Just a little bit. Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

I will not covet my neighbor's wife. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Or donkey or servant. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Give me your childhood in a hundred words or less. And not the highlight reel, but like what would how would you describe your childhood in a hundred words or less the the real version?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

I would say it was really, really good. Um I grew up with, you know, really good parents. Uh not a small family. No, no. There were uh eleven of us living in our little twelve hundred square foot house in Aurora. Wow. Um, sorry, thirteen including my parents. Uh so it was very, I want to say it was just very tight knit. You know, you can't escape anywhere. And um, you know, that was both a good thing and sometimes it felt like a bad thing because there was always somebody there. Whether that was my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Um she homeschooled all of us, which was I don't understand how she did that. I would just say very, very close, um, tight knit. And uh yeah, it was it was a good childhood.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Okay, how many bathrooms did you have?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

One and a half.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Wow. That is sanctification, right? Yeah. Okay, so you were raised in a Christian home, kind of raised in the church, as we say. Um what did that look like for your family? And like what what did you think of a church when you were a kid?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Um so it's actually kind of like we we went to quite a few different churches growing up. Um, we'd visit churches with um family friends, uh and then we went to this one church um that we were actually we were a part of for a very good while, like three to four years. Um, you know, all my siblings uh served there. You know, my sister and brother played on the softball team. Like it was just, you know, we were very, very involved. Um to me it was always just like, okay, this is like, you know, this is just what we do. We go to church. And it was always something that like we wanted to be involved with. And I remember even just being a little kid being like, Oh, I can't wait till I'm old enough to, you know, start doing setup and tear down or start doing whatever. Wow.

Big Family Life And Quiet Faith

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Do we have a job for you? That's exciting. Well, what was your read on like your parents' faith in growing up and that not like what they said? What did you actually pick up about their faith by watching them?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

One of the clearest memories I had was uh just of their faithfulness, right? Um one to God, but also to us in raising us. No, my dad still is a very big um, you know, spiritual influence in my life. And something that I always saw him do is he, you know, he'd be up he was, you know, sole provider for a family of, you know, 13. So he was always working. But something that he would always do is he would, you know, he would read the Bible in the morning. He'd have his quiet time at like 4:30, 5 in the morning. Um and he would always take time to read to us. Either he would read the Bible to us after dinner, or um we would read like uh these books called The Lamplighters. Um so he always like that was just how we, you know, we grew up. It was, you know, we didn't watch a lot of TV. Um we were for the most part all in bed by 8 30. And uh those were like some of my best memories that I had growing up was just like my dad um and mom just taking time to really, you know, point us to the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

So I think a lot of us who grew up in Christian homes got handed a version of grace that was basically Jesus covers your sin. Great, now don't blow it. You know, so like salvation was by grace, but everything after that was on you. Was that your experience growing up?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

So it is kind of funny, there's a very um like clear distinction in my mind versus what my parents taught me and what I learned at church. Right. One thing I distinctly remember, my mom would always tell me because I was troubled child. But uh, and I remember like, you know, I was always, I mean, it's pretty much a daily basis that I was getting into trouble. And um something that my mom would always tell me, you know, she'd come up to say goodnight, and she'd always tell me, Well, you know, the Bible says his mercies are new every morning. You know, and my dad would would tell me that, you know, because I'd be all bent out of shape because I'm like, oh, you know, I was you know, I messed up so bad today, right? And so there was even from just that young age, well, we know that uh I wanted that.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I gotta make myself, you know, we know that follow the church that you appointed to Mark out there in Aurora and kind of came to the point where that's taken care of. There was some like God's got you challenges with it, just as far as uh just some uh some of the practice, some of the requirements that they had for being a part of the body. Um remind me how that played out. That was uh it was just such a it stands out in my memory of just uh one of those moments and like just a cautionary type of teaching, um what not to do.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Not to care for people and love people. I mean Hannah does that to me all the time. She'll say, like, oh you uh this is what you said, and I'm like, I didn't say that. She's like, well, that's how I felt. It's a psyop. Yeah. Wives do that to me.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Oh my goodness. Um You realize I know where you sleep, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:13

See? Another psyop. And so, you know, so I would say that, you know, in my childhood, there's probably a lot of that that happened that yeah, how does that legalism creep in?

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Like, you know, where they're like, okay, we're do you think it's just the way that like our own minds work? Is it just uh do you think like the church isn't because I'm always uh you're gonna sign this map concerned about this and always trying to address this is is the church not doing enough to to specifically teach grace and understanding? Like, how does that creep into us? Because I think I I struggled with the same thing growing up.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

I think the biggest use of legalism from the end of Oh your dreams, your hopes and dreams for the church. And I think that pride is something that you don't have to teach. It was a very good thing, I mean, that is that was original sin, Adam and Eve wanting to be like God. And so I think that there is a part of us inherent in place, I mean, just our flesh nature that says I want to make myself a God. Right? And and there is also, you know, like I would say on the you know, eight desire, but uh right, to follow God, to love God. And I think it's just like, I mean, it's not hard to nudge somebody, of course. And so and I think that's what ends up happening with people is church, you know, serving we end up wanting something good, and unless we are fully surrendering all of these to different things that I'm God's will and grace, and we try to apply our own effort, we miss the one. And so when it comes to legalism, it's this you know, starts out with a good desire.

When Rule Keeping Takes Over

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Again, it's because our aim is just a little bit off, it takes us away, of course. Well, being a people displeasure, I can read that.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

I mean, I think our default setting is always self-justification. So you're right, I don't think it takes much to just nudge someone like how that direction.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

It wasn't a super big church, but I think that's why it became a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Not just our church, Capital C church. It has to be so intentional about teaching grace because it is foreign to our nature, even though it's all over scripture, like that's the whole Bible. But we have to be reminded continually. Um you said around 10 you started to get really concerned with keeping the rules, you know, hitting the mark.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

What kind of where did that come from? I think it was you know, it um started. He was like, hey, uh also my my wife and my sister. Uh let's pause or we'll redo that. Wanting to do well. Right. And it's so funny because I say that and I'm sure some of my siblings would listen and be like, yeah, right. Right. Just because again, I was I was quite literally like always in trouble. Right. I was always doing something dumb. But I do think that there was, you know, there's a certain degree of that where my older brother the further that I straight. The more that I wanted to self-correct, and the more that I tried to self-correct, the further that I got you know pushed off. Right. It was always, you know, and I mean something that I've still seen that uh the way that you're in my life where it's like, oh, I think I'm doing really good now. And and next thing I know, it's like, oh, I'm actually not doing as good as I thought I was doing. That was something that I you know I really I really pushed for was you know we you know trying to earn acceptance. Yeah. Um something that I would say that I still even to this day I'm like, oh, you know, I strive to be accepted. And that's human. I mean that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

How long did that season last? Was that a few months, a few years?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Oh, it's a couple years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Um into your adolescence.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, you know, and it was like, you know, I finally I kind of hit a point where I was like, oh, you know, I can drive now, I can do my own thing. And so it kind of like stopped, you know, in that sense. But it was always still something that like was in the back of my mind.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Quite a long while.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah. Um and that was a good one.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Would you begin consider yourself at all a people pleaser?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

100%. Yeah. Yeah. Um dumbest reason. It's kind of something that I'm trying to cause work out of cause division in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Um, to nix the membership packet idea.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I, you know, I people please, so you know I'm gonna totally I mean it it can be a good thing for a church.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

I'm not knocking on membership, but I'm just obviously there's there's ways of doing it. Ways of not there's there's a gracious way of it. Yeah, yeah, that's rough.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Okay. I don't need to be a yes man. I don't need to, you know, constantly try to give people what they want.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

But in spite of that, that doesn't mean that I, you know, I shouldn't go outside of my comfort zone to, you know, be there for people or help people or well I know for your family things eventually, you know, came to a head and and uh you know, after leaving that church and there was a pretty significant moment in your family, a loss. Um are you comfortable walking us through that?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah. Um so yeah, so my sister Sarah, um, my oldest sister, uh she always struggled um just with her mental health and you know, various uh various addiction um to like alcohol. Uh and so that was kind of like something that I saw from you know, being some of the price, you know, fairly young. You know, I think I was probably around remind me of how that played out. I was uh it was 14, 15 when I when I started to see that. Um, you know, and it was something that like it was it was very quiet. It was a quiet addiction. So this is kind of crazy because I mean this all happened, made an impact. Oh, I'm trying to think. Kind of started out that it was like only the I would have siblings kind of knew what was going on. Nine um maybe ten years old. There's like questions around is this what's going on? Because we it was one of those things where they so they had this whole like restructure. So that was kind of like kind of deal for case. And there was always something to turn into this big deal of like, hey, become more you're gonna sign this membership packet. But it was something that you're a member of our church, you get you know, your birthday called graduate bulletin. You know, it's you can you can serve on a team within our field. You can have a softball team, so it was like there was a lot of like wasn't really going to church at the end of the year. Like, yeah, it was it was definitely like a it was a very strange gospel. I probably I had there were times where it was like, okay, uh you know, it was just a very strange attending church, right? And rule in place because I wasn't attending church where they're like, well, if you want impiss, then you have to sign the membership this whole situation. At least that's kind of how I understood it. Um had a little bit more insight. I was just a little kid. It all came to a head um in the beginning of 2020. I remember my oldest sister Sarah, my um, because they wanted you to sign a membership. Sister really turned age to be on the mend. And so her mental health. My sister Sarah was like, Well, I've been a part of this church, you know, there was a lot of serving that and not

Legalism And The Luxury Escape

SPEAKER_00 18:55

a whole bunch of us were too terrible. I go to like, you know, right, and there were groups. I go to six. All of these different things that I'm involved with really seemed to be serving life changing. Why do you guys need me to sign a membership that to really seem to continue doing those things? And so she kind of just like helped push her. I'm not gonna do that. You know, which again it's kind of like okay, so and I see the point February she was making, but I'm also like, Oh, you're just my people's great aunt birthday. Yeah.

unknown 19:27

Passed away from kids.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Um and they was something that you know, it was it was really just kind of crazy. Like she did it in an ospice for it wasn't a super big church out, but it was like how everybody was like, so um, she was taking care of my auntie. And I think it kind of came to a head to help when make her comfortable. So my aunt Birdie ended up passing away. Stopped scheduling her for service, they wouldn't work anymore. Super, super surprised about it. They still like her playing on the softball league, um, and part of our lives ever. What kind of made my aunt still had actually go to the pastor a fair a fairly big impact on all of us as we were kind of like he was like hey, coming to terms. So my my brother and my sister ended up taking. Oh, let's pause or we'll redo that about two weeks after the fact. Um which so it really kind of all came to a head, took all of us by surprise. My brother and my sister were born to the biggest. And I think that was kind of the beginning because it was such years apart, but a shock. One of them was born on the 14th, one of them was born on the sixth. That's where they would do birthday months, and they put my older brother in the church bulletin, but wouldn't put her birth in the bullet big. I would say like to this end. So that was kind of like where my dad was like, this is like getting a little bit ridiculous. So he actually went to the pastor and sad was really like pushed me. I think he kind of just they were going back and forth.

unknown 21:01

Really?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

That whole year and like went off the deck. Effectively, the pastor told him, Well, if you're not going to submit to my authority, then you guys just need to leave the channel. Was there anything looking back you think about it? So that was kind of like you guys in that time. Obviously leaving the church. I mean, not that anything makes it better. You know, was it difficult because you know a lot of us doing so for years. Talk about my dad a lot. And but uh it was you know so then we kind of started really kept bouncing around to different churches to get. You know, we were going to this one church um you know. Actually, twenty twenty, my sister passed away. We went there for a couple of years and um something that I just remembered very clearly, you know, all of that. Uh and that's kind of what eventually, just telling us I've been to church. Vulnerable with quite a long while in the snow. And that was kind of like the feeling and how he was processing things. But yeah, it was just really like looking back at the I don't really come from a very emotional open cause, which is hard to believe talking to me. Right. But I remember one day he came home with this gigantic marker board and he hung it up at the top of the stairs. And he's like, hey, like here's a marker board. Here's markers. So yeah, if you guys just want to write out what you're feeling so that you know I can know how to be praying for you guys, so I can know like you know, he's like, and you don't have to tell me who it is, which all of us have very distinct handwriting. So that was what I feel really kept, at least me, really kept like us all together, was just the you know, the efforts of I mean both my parents, but like I have very, very clear memories of just my dad. My mom too is just I'm just a very like she was a little bit more subtle in uh in how you know she went about things, but I would say like just both my parents, I mean, really again just pointing back to the faithfulness of God. Yeah and and like years later, I can I can look back and see God's faithfulness even in that. Um and sometimes it took like I mean, and sometimes it was just like as small, quote unquote small, as you know, my dad buying us all a marker board.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

I think that was about the I mean, just after that was about the time that I met you, and where would you say your walk with God was in the middle of that? Where were you at at that point?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

I was probably at the worst place in my walk with God. Um there's just a lot of sin in my life, uh, a lot of just, you know, a lot of self-justification as well. You know, I can look back and see I was really, really trying hard to ignore the faith that I grew up with.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Interesting. So was there ever a moment where you wanted to completely walk away and just say, I don't believe this? Like, or was it always

Membership Control And Church Hurt

SPEAKER_03 24:40

there in the background? You know what I mean? But you just were choosing not to live that way.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

It was it was definitely always always in the background. Like I never, you know, I mean, I'd be at work and people would talking, would be talking about like stuff and um they'd be like, Well, what do you believe? And I was like, Well, you know, I'm I'm a Christian, right? Uh, or I would say, Well, my parents are religious. And, you know, I can even look back at those times and still see where it was still deeply ingrained as this is a part of who I am, but it was something that I was like really trying to like, I don't want to think about this, you know, this part of who I am. Um, and so there was never like a, you know, I wouldn't say it was ever like a super conscious decision of, you know, oh, I'm just gonna walk away. Um, except for oddly enough, when I first started going back to church, actually when I when I first uh started going to gather. Um, you know, for the first couple of months, I was just very like resistant. And uh, you know, there's there was a lot of spiritual turmoil that uh was involved in that.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

And um it's so uncomfortable when the Lord shines the light into those dark places, you know. You do not like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

And he doesn't let those dark places stay in the shadows. That's good. Well, what I find always interesting is in the seasons that were barely hanging on, you know, looking back, how was God holding on to you when there was nothing you had left to give?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

There's one time, this is back when Gather was meeting at night. Um, I was really, really upset after the after the sermon. And uh one of mine? Yeah. Why believe it or not? And it wasn't it wasn't anything, uh it wasn't anything necessarily. It wasn't blasphemy that you ripped your shirt open. Exactly. No, it was uh but I just remember like I got home and I was just really upset and I was like, I'm just gonna go for a run. And uh started my run out, and uh in the back of my mind, I was like, well, you know, if God actually wants to, you know, how if God wants me to have a relationship with him, if he wants to, you know, me to pursue him, then he'll talk to me. Right. And I remember I had this like this playlist that I would always listen to when I ran, and I would turn the music all the way up and I would go for however long I was running. And I remember I got probably about five miles into a 10-mile run, and uh my music stopped playing. And, you know, I checked my headphones, my headphones were charged, they were connected to my phone. Um, the music I could see was like playing in the app, it just wasn't playing through the headphones. So uh so I ended up taking my headphones out and I kept running, and um I hit the top of this like mile-long uphill stretch. And uh just there's kind of this moment where I heard or I thought kind of in the back of my mind, how am I gonna hear what God has to say if I'm constantly looking to distract myself? And I would say that that was kind of like the the turning point for me. Um and it's not like it all just like my faith and my walk with God skyrocketed and everything was perfect since then. There were a lot of um a lot of ups and downs uh you know involved in that. But I would say that was the that was a moment that like it it shifted.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

You forced the psalm Be Still and Know That I Am God. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

It was yeah, yeah. So turning a corner, how did you come to discover God's grace for real? Like, because I feel like you have a a pretty good grasp of that now. And what I mean for our listeners who maybe are unfamiliar with concept, um, what the Bible actually teaches about grace, that our changed lives are the result of our union with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit living in us. So growing in the Lord isn't about trying harder, it's about surrendering more so Christ can live through us. There's a little 30-second explanation of grace. But was that like an event for you or a process, or how did you, what is that, gradual awakening? How did you feel like you came to understand God's grace more?

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I would say it was it was a gradual, a very, very gradual process. Um, you know, I I remember a lot of conversations uh that I had with you, Rich, um just on that topic. And I remember one time uh my dad had explained it to me this way. Um he came downstairs after he had worked out and we were talking. I forget what brought the conversation on, but he told me, he's like, you know, he goes, when it when it comes down to it, he says it's all about being with God, right? It's about union with God, it's about you know being where he is. He's like, so if I go to church and worship him, I'm not doing that out of a sense of obligation. He goes, I'm doing that because that's where God is, right? That's where I'm gonna find God. And he goes, and you know, it's not like, oh, you know, I'm not gonna go to the bar and get high and get drunk because, you know, I'm worried about some kind of punishment. It's about saying, is that gonna be where God is? Right? Is that gonna be where I am going to, you know, experience that union with God? And that was kind of like the beginning of the turning point for me was was understanding that it's like, you know, obviously I want to please God, but it's not going to make myself more acceptable to him. Or it's not about making myself more acceptable to him. It's about saying, you know, I do this because I love you. And uh and that's still something that I'm again, I'm I it is a continual push to understand and you know know God and his grace more.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

I feel like that is kind of the battle of the Christian life, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Yeah. That's a good plug for a church too. You you said would you go to the bar or you you don't go to the bars because that's not where you're gonna find God necessarily, you know, but that's a good plug for a church, is because if everybody there has God's spirit in them and they're letting him speak and and act through him, then that's where we're gonna we should be experiencing God and communion with God and with his people. With his people, yeah. And that takes me right to Philippians 3, 3, um, where Paul says that for we are we are the circumcision who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. So honestly, what do you do when you catch yourself now sliding back into performance mode?

SPEAKER_00 32:47

This use it used to be really, really uh difficult for me when I would slip back into that.

The Run That Stopped Distraction

SPEAKER_00 32:55

I would find uh my response to it was to always kind of like go the opposite direction. Right. And not out of a sense of like, oh, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not walking in the habits of grace. It was more so, oh man, you know, I'm tired from trying, so I'm just gonna stop trying. Yeah. Right. And, you know, in some ways that would look like, you know, indulgence in some kind of sin. Right. Right. Um, and I would say, you know, more recently, it would involve just kind of like becoming very apathetic. Right. And, you know, filling my time with busy work and doing that. And it's now it's like for me, my number one indicator that I'm, you know, slipping into that apathy, slipping into that busy work is uh I really like listening to sermons. Um I drive a lot for work, so there's uh a couple different pastors that I listen to. And if ever I have a moment where I'm like, I really don't want to listen to the sermon today, that's like my that's my check engine light. And I'm like, oh, something's wrong.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Okay, so this actually segues perfectly into Okay, I have a I have a question for both of you guys, but I'm gonna read you a quote first because it just it piggybacks on what you were saying. This is a quote from John Piper. He says, Our soul is either leading us to luxury or legalism. The fight is not to give way to legalism and not to give way to luxury. So why do you think we do this, first of all? And what is the solution?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I have a relationship with a lot of Catholics. Um and it's funny because um uh my mother-in-law always would say this when she was trying to get me to convert in the early days of Hanna and I's relationship. She would always say, Well, Catholicism is easy. They give you the rules and you follow the rules, and it's easy, and you know, you can know that you're good with God. And I think that when it comes to legalism, there's uh the appeal to sorry, it's very appealing to have everything laid out for you. Right?

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Just tell me what I'm supposed to do and what I'm not supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yet that really makes for immature believers. Right? And how so I guess I would use the example of a kid, right? When I was young, I would, you know, try to do the right thing or do the right thing based off of a fear of I don't want to be punished for not doing this or doing this. Now, as I've grown older, you know, um, my dad will ask me to do something, and I'm not really worried about, you know, my dad giving me a spanking at when I'm, you know, married and have a family of my own, but it now becomes something like, oh, I want to do this for you. And there's a sign of maturity where it's like, okay, I do the things that I'm supposed to do, not out of a sense of fear or obligation, but out of, you know, an exercising of love, an exercising of my free will to say, you know, this is what you ask of me, and so this is what I'm gonna do. Right. Why do we push for luxury? I think it gets tiring trying to constantly keep the rules as easy as it sounds. Yeah, it's all done in our own effort.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Yeah. So you just swing to the other side of it and doing Yeah, and I think that's that's true. I mean, it's just easier that way. Just give me my lane that I need to stay in. Here's the you know, give me these exact rules that I can just stay within this lane and just kind of operate on cruise

Grace As Union Then Real Change

SPEAKER_02 37:20

control.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

But you end up like the Pharisees, you can keep all the rules perfectly, but your heart is rotten.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Yeah, it doesn't seem like that. But then I'm not love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and and strength. I'm I'm forsaking the the the greatest rule there is and loving my neighbor. And when I'm going after chasing luxury, it's just because I'm in my flesh, I'm tired, I'm weak, and and then I'm forsaking loving my neighbor as myself because I'm just wanting to feed my own flesh and and uh yeah, that's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

Well, and I I think when Christ is genuinely what you treasure the most, you know, when you love him above everything else and you're satisfied in him, it it cuts off both those exits, you know, kind of naturally. Like we just we don't need to perform, um, we don't need to escape. Yeah. It's not a willpower thing, it's just what we love the most, you know?

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah. So, Timothy, how is life actually different now? Now that you're walking in the the freedom of God's grace. I mean, what is your what is your relationship look like with God today?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

I think there's a lot of security. You know, I I have now the ability to come to God regardless and say, like, you know, Lord, I need your help with this, or you know, a big thing for me is now being able to actually fully worship, right? For me, that's the reset of saying, like, yeah, I can actually, you know, come to you and whether things are going well, whether things are going poorly, I can honestly come to you and worship. I can honestly come to you with gratitude, with praise, with repentance and that security.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

What would you say to our listeners who maybe they're struggling with their faith because they've had a hard experience? How would you encourage them? Like, how can they hold on to God and his people?

SPEAKER_00 39:33

The biggest piece of encouragement that I have would be to continue to push to know God. You know, so I would say continue to continue to push towards a relationship with God. Uh if I could plug another podcast series, um, Questioning Christianity by Timothy Keller. Um that was uh the podcast that Hannah actually started listening to um before, you know, before she uh came to understand grace. Um and that was a very, very big help. Um because it just, you know, to be able to say, like, okay, let's objectively look at this.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Where in the Bible would you point someone if they if someone came to you and asked, hey, I wanna I want to know God. I I just bought this Bible. Where uh where should I start? What would you uh recommend?

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Full of tough questions. That's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

I mean, that's it. Like what what what book is uh meant the most to you and and uh knowing God and understanding him? The book of Hebrews. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Oh, I love the book of Hebrews. That's my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Um uh one off verse. I mean, the obvious choice would be John 3.16. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And um, I'm really I know I'm good at remembering the quotes of what the Bible says. Oh, I'm terrible at the references. Um but you know, where where Christ says I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me. Right. And with those two, you kind of like get a good beginning inkling.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah, well, yeah, if you can't even know God or have a relationship with him without it going through Christ, yeah. That's that's a good place to start for sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

And uh, you know, just it points to his love. You know, that he loved us enough to come down and die for us, but then two, that that is how we get to God. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

So well, no no need to be profound here, but what's uh one thing you'd love for our listeners to to walk away with from your story?

SPEAKER_00 41:55

God has always got you. But even if you're the one out of the 99, he's coming after you. And he's gonna continue to pull you back to him.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Well, thank you, Timothy. That was really cool. That was profound. Just getting to hear your story. And thank you, everyone, for listening until the end of the episode. Um, there was some powerful stuff in that episode, so please share it with a friend, someone you know needs to hear this. So pass it along.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah,

Where To Start When Seeking God

SPEAKER_02 42:30

and we want to give a shout out to our faithful listeners in Texas, New Jersey, Michigan, Indiana, and Japan. We'll be back soon. But in the meantime, remember, it just says top, top, top.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Well, you're supposed to come up with a really hiffy benediction like you always do on Sunday morning. You always have a good benediction. Remember, in Christ, you are safe. You are loved. Just continue to rest in.