CONNECTING
The official podcast of the Northern New England Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
CONNECTING
Faith, Freedom, and Final Events: A Conversation with Pastor Ron Kelly
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What happens when foundations crumble and consciences are tested? In this inaugural Northern New England Conference podcast, Pastor Gary Blanchard sits down with Pastor Ron Kelly for a profound conversation that bridges personal testimony with prophetic understanding.
Pastor Kelly shares his remarkable journey to ministry, revealing how God worked through a praying grandmother and a determined mother to redirect his rebellious teenage path. "She inadvertently introduced me to Christ and to the ministry," Kelly reflects, highlighting how divine providence often works through family relationships. His story offers hope to parents currently battling resistance from their children – your steadfastness matters more than you know.
The discussion deepens as they explore how authentic Christian community becomes the living proof of doctrinal truth. Kelly explains that while sound teaching is essential, "the community of the believers is the proof of the doctrine." When agape love – that selfless choice to put others first regardless of feelings – permeates a congregation, it creates "little communities of heaven on earth" that powerfully attract seekers.
Most compelling is their examination of current events through the lens of prophecy, particularly focusing on religious liberty. Drawing from Revelation 13 and Ellen White's writings, they discuss how America – symbolized as a beast with lamb-like horns that eventually speaks like a dragon – is showing concerning signs of transformation. The U.S. Constitution, described as "probably the most divinely inspired human document outside of the Scriptures," will eventually face challenges that undermine its protection of conscience rights.
What should believers do as these prophesied events unfold? Kelly offers practical wisdom: strengthen your personal walk with Christ, hide Scripture in your heart, and remember that even amid persecution, "God is the great vindicator of his parents and his pastors and his presidents."
Have you considered how your faith will withstand coming challenges? This conversation will strengthen your resolve and deepen your hope in Christ's promise: "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Subscribe now for more insights that build faith and prepare hearts for Jesus' soon return.
Watch on Youtube at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXiqg0oHl_EA6ldtvN68fd1wpF8boyTeh
Welcome to Northern New England
Speaker 1Welcome everybody. This is Pastor Gary Blanchard. Welcome to the Northern New England Conference, our first podcast. Pretty cool, ron, isn't it? It's wonderful and it's so good to have Pastor Ron Kelly here with us for just a chat, a chance to talk a little bit, get to know each other even better. You're no stranger to Maine, are you?
Speaker 2Ron, oh no, I love Maine.
Speaker 1What would you say is the best state in the entire country? Well, maine's, right up there. Good answer. I like Minnesota too. I know I've been to Minnesota. Isn't it like the state with the 10,000 lakes, or something?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's right, but you know I love the woods, the canoeing, the outdoors. The expression of God's creation. It is the expression of God's creation. It's just awesome, amen.
Speaker 1And that's what I love about Maine, new Hampshire, vermont. You know I was born here in Portland, maine, but, boy, so much, so much beauty to see. Last year you came and you did a wonderful job at Camp Meeting and I think you got to see the sites a little bit. What did you see? Yeah, we love.
Speaker 2Camp Meeting. Love the Maine people. This is a great conference. And we slipped up to Baxter State Park and then drove down, tried to get a little close to the coast and went to see some of the things that make this part of the country famous. You know we just there's so much history here too.
Speaker 1Amen, yeah, I agree with you 100%. Right here in Portland, where we're filming this and this podcast, is the very birthplace of Adventism.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, it's just awesome to think about how God started right here Rugged, resilient, committed people.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah, yeah, and we keep claiming that promise in Spirit of Prophecy, that revival will return to the East.
Speaker 2Well, that's going to be awesome and we're going to need that same beautiful, gracious, determined type of person to be able to stand in the last days.
Speaker 1It's so true, man, and we've been praying for that as a conference and just wishing that God and praying that God would pour out his spirit on us.
Speaker 1so we might have the attributes of Jesus and the abilities of Jesus and that the three angels' message would go out with power here. Amen, that would be awesome. Why not Amen? That's right? Well, Ron, I wanted to just kind of I mean, we can just chat a little bit but I'd like to go back, I think, as we get toward the end of the podcast. I want to talk about religious liberty and last day events, because I think we're with the new Pope coming up.
Speaker 1Leo XIV, there are lots of things happening in the world that we should stop and pay attention to, don't you think? Yeah, that's right, it's time to pay attention. We're going to get to that, but I just wanted to maybe ask you something, some things about your childhood, your growth. Tell us a little bit about you. Know you've been a pastor for how many years now?
Speaker 2Well, I was hired 37 years ago by the Indiana Conference. Oh, wow, okay, I got a little seminary in there.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But yeah, about 35 years out actually doing it, a couple years being trained.
Speaker 1And when you look back, are you grateful that God called you to that role.
Speaker 2I don't know how Like Paul it's like. How did God see something worth using here? But what an awesome privilege, I'm sorry to say. In the beginning it's like Lord. No, I don't want to be a pastor, but I think when you're young, you're processing the whole rest of the future and the devil goes out of his way to make serving God look like something less than desirable.
Speaker 1I'm glad to hear that, because I had the same response to the call to pastoral ministry. Lord, I'll do anything but not that. But I'm so glad that God led us both there Well you know we don't know what we want.
Speaker 2The Bible says if we'll delight in him, he'll give us the desires of our heart. And for any young person listening, I hope if they sense a conviction they'll know that if you follow God, he knows how to fulfill you to the ultimate and you'll never be bored, will you Ron? Oh my, you will never be bored. It will put your capacities to the test physically, mentally, spiritually and relationally, and that's exciting.
Speaker 1Amen. You know, if God's called you, then if you go forward. It's an exciting life. Somebody said he'll give you life more abundantly.
Speaker 2Oh yeah. Well, there's no doubt about that. I can think of some of those moments when I'm thinking to myself I don't have to do this, I can go be a nurse or something like that. But you know, god is the ultimate in relational continuity and steadiness and he doesn't let us out of things that he knows we're going to appreciate someday. Amen amen.
Speaker 1I've never regretted following the Lord. There's been challenges, like you said, and ups and downs, but boy, it's worth it. So now, Ron, did you grow up in a Seventh-day Adventist family? Tell us a little bit about your childhood and growing up. What was that context like?
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm the first of four kids. My mother was the middle of three girls and she was a very backslidden, rebellious young teenager, married my dad, not walking with God. I arrive on the scene and, you know, kids start changing people. One of my favorite pictures is my mom as a young woman holding her firstborn me and there's an ashtray off to the side. It's like love is the only thing that has the power to break you away from some of those addictions. So I grew up in a non-Adventist home two fairly good people by the measure of the world, quite good by the measure of the world determined mother and a kind, good father who was a computer programmer back in the early days of programming. And yeah, it was quite a journey. I was joined by two sisters and a brother and, you know, eventually my grandma's prayers would get answered.
Speaker 1Wow, what was your grandma's prayers?
Ron Kelly's Journey to Ministry
Speaker 2Well, grandma was a devout Seventh-day Adventist. She was a head deaconess at the Peoria Illinois Church, oh my. And she would come over and bring us gifts. And my great aunt would bring us your Story Hour vinyl records, you know, Greg and the Runaway Tractor, and all these things that built a lot of character and were laying some really great foundations. And then my mother had it in the back of her mind that I would not go to the junior high in the public school system and she had been working on my dad for years and she was not going to lose. Wow. And so that all worked out.
Speaker 2Well, she put us in. It was. I didn't want it. I fought her. I was by that time I was probably I'm six foot two inches tall and I was looking down on her as she was looking up at me, telling me how it was going to be Right. And my mom was in charge and I never doubted her love and I never doubted she meant what she said and she plunked me down in a school that I knew very little about the Bible, was afraid of being embarrassed but turned out to be the greatest introduction to love that I had known to that time.
Speaker 1Amen, amen. So there's something to be learned about the prayers of a grandmother and a mother and the commitment of your parents.
Speaker 2Yeah, and you know my mother. For all of her faults, she was consistent to her value system and one of her value systems was mom knows best, and I will be the parent here and I'm not sharing that seat with you, and I'm glad she didn't, because I wouldn't be sitting here today. She inadvertently introduced me to Christ and to the ministry.
Speaker 1Wow, yeah, so having her being willing to take a stand and be the parent makes a difference.
Speaker 2There's a lot right there and I'd like to just encourage any parents that might listen to us go ahead and keep being the parent. Nothing's changed. There's nothing new under the sun. You got to figure out what's best and right. You're the shepherd of those little lives and be united with your spouse and be the parent. If you don't have a spouse, be united with Christ on your own and be the parent.
Speaker 1Amen, amen. Yeah, my daughter from time to time will say man Dad, thank you for making that stand when you did, when I was really angry at you as a teenager.
Speaker 2Oh, yeah, that happens. How do you go from being an identity shaped by parents to an identity that's a bit separate from parents and independent? You're going to have some clashes.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Hopefully you don't have them all the time, but depending on the temperament of your child and your family system, you might have more. But still, in love, go ahead and do what you think is right.
Speaker 1Yeah, be the parent. They might not like you now, but they will certainly sing your praises when they're down the road.
Speaker 2Well, quite an object lesson for the storyline, for the church too. Because you know, when you do something hard and it's not appreciated in leadership, residency or pastoring or whatever it might be, you've got to endure some of those same chapters where people don't see it. But in time God's a great vindicator of his parents and his pastors and his presidents, and he's the great corrector too if they make a mistake. Sure glad you said that. Well, we all need it. We're in a family. God's the Father. So you know, he's gentle, he's kind, he's patient.
Speaker 1He gives us, yeah, not just second chances, many, many chances. So, Ron, you discovered the concept of love and I'm assuming that was within the gospel portrayed in the Bible and then talk a little bit about that, but also tell us a little bit when you first got your call, when you first felt God gently guiding you into ministry.
Speaker 2Yeah, thanks for that. You know I experienced the love of God in the community of that church school and the Peoria Church and gave my heart to Christ. A year later was baptized. Not long after that our church school teachers had us doing what a lot of church school teachers do and I really want to encourage this Get your young people up front doing something Now. Train them to be sincere Christians so that up front's not one persona and private person's not another. But they had us do little sermonettes.
Speaker 2I got up there, I quoted out of the book Education for a conclusion. I knew very little about preparing messages but I've been guided some by them and I ended on a powerful quote from the book of Education and the congregation resoundingly amened my few minutes up there and I thought what just happened? The teachers pulled me aside the next Monday and said we think you may have a call to ministry, which in about the eighth grade still sounded kind of exciting. I sensed it. I kind of ran away from it in my adolescent years and God had to lasso me back. But I experienced the love of God in the teachings of the Bible, but in the communion of the people, and I want to emphasize that because in this last day, as a leader, the hardest thing there is is to get people working together, but it's so much easier when they start loving each other.
Speaker 2At that point in time, the love which is the bond of perfection according to Colossians, chapter 3, starts, allowing us to overlook things, to understand family systems and maybe why people have those uniquenesses and oddities, but it also allows you to nicely, gently, wisely, confront them at times too and require people to grow. So the community of the believers, I believe, is the proof of the doctrine and it's the proof of the environment of gospel growing. That's supposed to go on. And when churches don't put the effort into bonding, when they don't walk individually with Christ, they miss out on what is a very palpable expression of the excellency of the gospel, which is creating little communities of heaven on earth. And that won me over. The doctrine was important, very important. The community was, I would say, as an expression of the true doctrine, every bit as important. And I gave my heart to Christ, enjoyed some good evangelistic preaching and, yeah, just, it's powerful when it works.
Speaker 1Amen. You know, I've been really looking deeper into the concept of the agape love, Amen and all the other aspects of the Greek loves. They have different names for Greek for love. They're all motivated by some type of feeling, whether it's, you know, attraction, or whether it's brotherly love and that kind of thing. They're bonded in that way. But agape love is a whole nother level, isn't it? It's where you make a decision to put someone else ahead of you, and you may not feel like it, but you make that decision because of what Jesus did for you on Calvary. So it's a choice that leads to a better outcome. But you make a choice, whether you feel it or not.
Speaker 2It's powerful stuff, it's very powerful and the reservoir of love Christ puts in you gives you the ability to suffer. Of course, you still need people around you to also help fill you up and, you know, hopefully you have a family system, be it parenting, marriage or whatever. But God is the great infiller and of course it's as we know from John 4, the woman at the well. It's something he does inside you. It makes you a well of life.
Speaker 1Amen. As you were saying that, I thought Romans 5.5,. He has poured his Holy Spirit, his love, into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2That's the only thing that makes it work, which is why not walking with him daily leaves the church weak. If you aggregate a bunch of weak people, you have a weak church. If you aggregate or bring together a bunch of legitimate Christ-pursuing Christians, you're going to get an elevated experience.
Speaker 1Amen. I was speaking with a pastor yesterday who's actually pastoring here in Portland and he was telling me you know that we, you know, every morning I tremble to go out of my house if I haven't first spent some time with the Lord and been filled with the Spirit, because so many people look up to you as a minister. That's right, and what you say and do. But he's found the source, hasn't he? The source is in that time with God and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2Amazingly simple. It's a little hard sometimes because what God asks us to do in the name of that agape love is sometimes very much against the natural carnal heart. But you know, we press through, with Christ holding our hand and leading us through.
Speaker 1Amen. Doesn't the Bible say that for the joy set before him he endured the cross? The Bible say that for the joy set before him he endured the cross. I'm sure that. Jesus wasn't excited about dying on the cross, no, but he made a choice, seeing in the future what that agape love would accomplish.
Speaker 2It really touches me to think that God saw us and powered through all of that in the name of bringing us back together.
Discovering God's Love in Community
Speaker 1Amen, Amen brother, you know you mentioned the impact that Adventist education had on your life and you're very grateful that your grandmother prayed for you and your mother made sure that she was the parent and was able to get you that education. Would you advise Adventist education today for parents and what do you think about homeschooling and Adventist education in general, and give us your thoughts on that? Obviously, you're 100% Listen.
Speaker 2I'm married to a teacher, oh there you go.
Speaker 2Who, just within the last few minutes, got out of school for five days of true evangelism. And when the teacher's converted and doing the same thing, the pastor is, the classroom is a discipleship center. My father-in-law was a superintendent of education. I was won to Christ by Christian teachers. I sat on a K-12 board for almost 20 years, pastored in an academy church.
Speaker 2Adventist education, when it's working in its Adventist way, is a mighty locomotive to take this church from generation to generation into success. When it quits working because the parents and the teachers are no longer really filled with the Spirit, it can become more challenging and there are some painful chapters in people's lives because we had a forum without the substance. But Adventist education, along with homeschooling, I see them both as Adventist education. You know, we homeschooled a couple of our kids I have four for a little while. The older two went all the way through. I'm so thankful at every level and it's my constant effort to make sure we are as true to the mandate of what this is supposed to be as we are supposed to be, because God blesses what he blesses.
Speaker 1Amen. We have nine schools here in northern New England and we have, you've seen, pine Tree Academy and it's, and you know, we actually just recently had a meeting with all the pastors and teachers coming together and just having them collaborate together and how they can work together. And you're right, when there's a good synergy between parents, pastors and teachers, it's hard, it's the limit.
Speaker 2Oh, my goodness yes, and the kids are the beneficiaries.
Speaker 1They are the beneficiaries. They become the disciples of Jesus and are excited, and I like how you shared about the importance of involving young people in ministry. You were involved in actually reading something in front of people and they were able to see your gifts.
Speaker 2Yeah, it was an amazing event, and you know. Then you throw in Pathfinders, Adventurers. When the systems are all working together, we've got elevated character, elevated mission, elevated power. We have generosity, and there's nothing like education to retool the culture of Adventism.
Speaker 1Amen. Yeah, it's wonderful, ron. So you, when you heard people saying, wow, that was powerful and they sensed, when you just read a little bit something from the book Education in front of everyone, they identified that you had a special gift as a young man. Was that when you knew that you were called by God?
Speaker 2or did something. That's the first time it ever crossed my mind that I might have a special call in my life.
Speaker 1So then, what were some other ways that God and there might be somebody listening now that's feeling something tugging at them. Well, there's no doubt.
Speaker 2I'm convinced lots of people turn away from the ministry. They become doctors. I cannot I haven't counted up how many doctors I think probably were called to the ministry, but they didn't choose it. And but yeah, there are people.
Speaker 2And you know, for me, that mantle put on me by a church school teacher got me thinking an awful lot and my gifts continued to develop. I did run away from it, but then I was at a summer camp and the nature man came up to me while I was sitting at a table with all of my charges as a camp counselor and out of the blue out of the blue, I say he said to me have you thought about the ministry? And I thought, oh my, he doesn't know, I'm running from it right now. And finally, going back to Andrews University, after a year in public college, I resurrendered my life to Christ and God speaks loud enough if you want to listen. And once I resurrendered I went ahead and refocused and I had peace in my heart, I knew I was called to it and you know, god gives you what you need, he grows your faith, gives you the gifts. But I think everybody should expect you will be resisted, because the devil doesn't want committed people in his enemy's line of work, and God is his enemy.
Speaker 1Wow, oh man, that's so true. So many people being called to the gospel work are being distracted from that. It's tempting to, and God's not going to nag you forever about it. I mean, eventually he lets you, you know, kind of go your own way.
Speaker 2And Seventh-day Adventist young people tend to be a pretty high prize right now. They come to work, they know how to dress beautifully, they carry themselves well, they've been raised with commitments and a good work ethic. And yeah, if you're a Seventh-day Adventist young person listening to me right now, you can rake in a lot of money doing something else because God's gifted you. But if he's called you to serve, and no matter where you serve, serve God. But if he's called you distinctly to a life of sacrifice, serving as a pastor or a teacher, don't run from it.
Speaker 1Amen, distinctly to a life of sacrifice, serving as a pastor or a teacher. Don't run from it. Amen, amen, yeah, don't do that. And I agree with you 100%. And both of you you and I both ran from the call. Yeah, we did. That's a real. That's really interesting that you two felt that way. There were so many other things pulling, but I am so glad, like you are, that we were able to be called by God and we answered the call and he gave us strength to do it.
Speaker 2Amen.
Speaker 1He pursued us. He didn't let us go Like a loving shepherd. That's right, that's right. Well, you know, there might be some here today listening and maybe they felt hurt by the church. You know, Maybe the church has. They felt that they've been mistreated. What would you say to a young person that might be tempted to say I'm just done with church, I don't want anything to do with this church, Forget being a pastor. What would you say to them?
Speaker 2Well, I was hurt by my own family many times, but they're still my family. You know, I've got to learn to love the people and love the cause. And the church will hurt you at times and it's a family. People typically mean well, but they sometimes get a little bit cross-eyed about what they're doing. They get some kind of cause and, in the mindset of that cause, they sometimes choose methods that are poor or bad. Sometimes they don't listen, sometimes they're afraid of looking bad, while they really run scrimmage or hold a shield up for someone who's suffering, be it a child or someone else.
Speaker 2So yeah, through your life, the church is going to hurt you at times. Most of the times it's not intentional. But the love we talked about earlier, you know it's Jesus that's the head and the center. And sometimes we do suffer at the hands of our friends. You know, wounded in the house of our friends. That's Jesus' story. And really you look at everybody in the Bible. There's usually going to be a few moments when somebody who shouldn't have did something did it anyway. And I know I was just listening to a sermon and I think about David.
Speaker 2You know he stole a wife and he killed her husband, oh my. And yet that man was noble to the very end. And what a story it'll be in heaven. So the church does hurt us, but Jesus is the balm in Gilead and he helps bring it back together. And I think about the history of Adventism. You know Goodloe Harper Bell and Alexander McClern, who both taught at Battle Creek College. They wounded each other deeply. Uriah Smith was an indulgent chairman of the board and he was on the wrong side and White wrote and told him. But it took nine years before there was an apology between Alexander actually between Uriah Smith and Goodloe Harper Bell. We've got to hang in there. Commitments.
Speaker 1We have sad examples of people like AT Jones and Wagner that kind of eventually were horribly treated in 1888. And they left, and they left.
When Church Hurts: Healing and Commitment
Speaker 2But you know I've mistreated my wife at times and she's mistreated me, but we're still married and we still love each other. So I do want to disabuse the listening audience of the idea that in a loving journey there's no wounding going on, because it happens. And I look at my mom and dad they stuck together and, oh boy, my mom had a lot of good reasons to walk away, but they were married almost 60 years and you know they made it through the bad chapters and so commitment's a big deal. It's not dysfunctional just brushing it under the rug, but there is a lot of love, that you know. Love suffers long and is kind and we don't want to suffer the wrong way because there is a time for working things through. But we do know we're going to be like Jesus. We're going to have to go through some sorrows.
Speaker 1Yeah, well said Ron. You know, when we get to heaven, people will be sharing some of the things that they suffer for the cause of Christ. But then they're going to see the holes in his hands and realize that, you know, it's cheap enough. It's cheap enough, it's cheap enough. You know, years ago I met this young lady who was a champion kayaker, yeah, and it was actually in Ukraine that I met her, and I sure wish I remembered her name because I would definitely tell everybody about her name. But she was sharing how she decided to keep the Sabbath and, as a result of that, was not able to compete. She was a champion, the world champion. She was not able to compete and so she lost her position because of the Sabbath, her desire to keep the Sabbath.
Speaker 1And when I asked her about that, I said boy, you've really wow, it was quite a sacrifice you made. I said to her. She looked at me and, without a smile actually, she looked at me and she goes. You know what it's interesting that you would say that because she goes, I don't feel like I sacrificed anything. Praise God, she said, for what Jesus did for me on Calvary, the assurance that I have of being saved, of being right with God and my sins being washed away. It was worth every bit of that. It was a rebuke to me, a reminder that we suffer and we do. You know we're coming to some times, aren't we, ron, very soon in this world history, where people are going to push our conscience and we will be treated, mistreated. But look what Christ did for us and look what he suffered for us.
Speaker 2Absolutely, and that woman is a part of your family. Kind of gently rebuked you just a little bit and said your perspective's wrong, so true.
Speaker 1Praise the Lord, and that was medicine that I needed. And to this day, and like what you were saying, you know it's boy the world is going to mistreat us. Our church sometimes will do this to us, but we need to remember what Jesus did ultimately and return, make a decision to return agape love toward others. Wow. So, ron, you went on and you decided eventually to become a pastor. You followed through with all that and you've had no problems since. Right, oh man.
Speaker 2I've had an exciting life. There've been a few ups and downs, like you said, but you know God has seen me through. He gives us energy and strength and there's a lot of joy. The Bible says there's a season, there's a time for everything. So you know, life is life and yet I can tell you that the journey of serving God has been one of the most exhilarating journeys of my life. Amen, and I wouldn't trade it. I've met the best people. I've gotten to do the most exciting things. I've had the highest order of purpose.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And I think our world's just coming around to the idea of the bankruptcy of the last generation or two. Just fill in your bucket list. I think we need to quit teaching people to try to do their bucket list and ask God to choose the bucket and say, hey, I know what's going to really make you happy and the friends I have, the people I've bonded with, the great causes, I'm associated with the greatest causes. Yeah, there's been some downs, but most of it's been up. And when the Adventist church is filled with the Spirit, unified and actually doing what it's supposed to do, it's nothing, but it's mainly just an exciting journey to see what God's going to do next. And he says I'll give you a chance to help me here, amen.
Speaker 1Oh man, that's exciting to hear that. In fact, we're going to be praying here. We're having the Religious Liberty event, as you know, this weekend at Camp Lorwald and you're going to be speaking for that, but one of the things we're going to be doing is praying that God would be there in power at the GC session. Amen, it's coming up and I know he will, and I know a lot of people are praying around the world that God would give us wisdom in these last days to face some of these challenges. We're also going to be talking about ways that we can learn from the past to prepare for the future. Amen. Are there some mistakes we've made that we can learn from and move forward and not make those again? Are there some things that we got right that we need to continue to do? So it's going to be exciting to hear what God says to the body of Christ there at this camp.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to not only sharing some things, but I'm looking forward to the conversations that transpire, the fellowship, the place, of course, being at the camp. I mean this is how God renews his people. Don't forsake the assembling together, come together, and you don't know what sparks are going to ignite a fire and, man, you don't want to miss out.
Speaker 1No, exactly. Well, Ron, I want to share with you some quotes from Spirit of Prophecy. Have you ever heard of the book Great Controversy? Amazing, powerful book, and there are some quotes in here that I just want to get your feedback on, because we're going to be talking a lot about that this weekend. Various aspects of this chapter it's actually chapter 35 in the Great Controversy, called Liberty of Conscience Threatened, and you and I both agree this is relevant for our times.
Speaker 2It's exactly for our time.
Speaker 1And we, as I mentioned earlier, we you know, with this new Pope Leo XIV, being an American, the connection between our understanding of Revelation 13 is coming into real context, potentially here.
Speaker 2If you don't see things right now, you need a divine prescription from the divine optometrist.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly, exactly. I thought I would share a couple quotes with you and just get your feedback, and then we want to end this podcast with kind of hearing where God is leading you next. Okay, great, so don't let me forget that, because that's going to be our grand crescendo, thank you. A couple quotes for you. Here's this one, right here. It says Protestants have tampered with and patronized potpourri. They have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. You know it's interesting. We hear a lot today about, you know, christian patriotism. They have a lot of different names for it today and lots of different areas that people are concerned about. But here it says the most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty, the Romanism papacy. What are your thoughts? A little bit on that.
Speaker 2Well, I think it's very interesting that she notes civil and religious liberty and I look forward to having some discussions about that over the weekend. But what has happened is proscentism has sold its soul and abandoned the high calling of the prophetic role it had, which was to pursue truth, keep the culture to the climate of heavenly principles. And I believe what's happened is that, by and large, the Catholic Church has not sold its soul to the consumeristic worship styles of the church growth movement. I have a doctorate in leadership and my focus was on the church growth movement and what effectively happened was Protestantism drove a dagger through its own heart by turning church into a consumer experience.
Religious Liberty Under Threat
Speaker 2The Word of God was subjugated to the desires of the audience and that in effect, largely ended the Protestant Reformation. In contrast to that, the papal system pretty much carried on with its rites and traditions and now, as we're leaving the age of meaninglessness behind and looking in the age of meaning, the rites and the forms, the steadiness of the Catholic Church are looking more and more palatable and actually interesting and attractive to all kinds of Christians who don't really have the Bible and they don't have a deep walk with Christ out of the Bible. So the lineup and the setup. These things have been being choreographed for centuries now, but in the last decades and the last few years and now in the last few days, we see a choreography in the controversy between good and evil.
Speaker 1That should wake us, man. You said a lot there. That's powerful, and the question that comes to my mind is are we still Protestant as Adventists, are we still being faithful in proclaiming the message, particularly the third angel's message, which applies here? She says that you know, we need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. How do we resist, ron?
Speaker 2Well, I think our real resistance is in the message of righteousness by faith, where the actual gospel experience is experienced and understood.
Speaker 2I was reading a book by AT Jones on the flight over here and I'm convinced, at the end of the day, that the doctrine of salvation is going to be at the heart of the Mark of the Beast, because Jones will make the case that you cannot legislate morality, and when you try to legislate it, you're entering the arena that only God can.
Speaker 2Now there are laws that govern morality, but they're not based on God's word. They're based on the value of the morality behind the laws. But, in effect, what I think is going to happen is we're going to see the mark of the beast come into being, because we believe that forcing somebody to do something will change them. And this is the exact opposite of the message of righteousness by faith, which is it's an encounter with God that changes you from the inside. It's a miracle receiving a gift. I love it. And so we're going to see two colossal theological understandings of how salvation works and what the role force plays, what the right of the church and the government is, and where the relationship between God and a person and God and society intersect.
Speaker 1Wow, powerful, powerful.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love that the third angel's message is righteous by faith it is in verity, Ellen White will say Excellent, and I think that what's going to come into play is this we're going to be back at Luther's day, in a sense that the just will live by faith.
Speaker 1Yes, we're seeing something very special happening in North America right now I know you're well aware of that, ron is this Pentecost 2025. That's happening where churches all over the place I think most, if not all, of our churches are involved in somewhere or another with Pentecost 2025 here in Maine, new Hampshire and Vermont, and people are faithfully preaching the warning message of the beast power, the mark of the beast and, I believe, also presenting the beautiful message of righteousness by faith. We don't want to lose our Protestant calling and we must be faithful to the one thing God has asked us to do as a church, and that is to preach the first, second and third angels' messages. But there has never been a time, I think and maybe I'm wrong about this, maybe this is a common thing, but there seems to be never been a time when that third angel's message is so relevant as it is now.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it's going to come into more relevancy as time goes forward. You know the Catholic Church through the years has been very oppressive to liberty of conscience. The popes in the 19th century hated the concepts that undergirded America, and nothing has changed. Right now there is I mean, there is a downplaying of those concepts, but nothing has changed.
Speaker 2I would say, as we go forward into Pentecost 2025, it'll be very important that your churches come together in prayer. They're looking for the sweetness of the true doctrines of righteousness by faith and that they offer something different. And then the other thing I would say is that the message of the mark of the beast, the third angel, and what will grow out of that in the fourth angel's messages of Revelation 18, they are going to create some controversy. That's right, and I think anybody that goes into them not understanding that this is the great controversy. And whenever we start taking souls out of the train of hopelessness and putting them as prisoners of hope in the gospel train, the devil will be aroused.
Speaker 2So I don't want any church that preaches this, any preacher, any lay person who is a preacher too. I don't want anybody to go into it with the wrong expectation. Adventism in the beginning was controversial, so was the Millerite movement, a lot of derision, and we're going to have to kind of put on our gospel armor and be able to endure some of that and the benefit will be as we're united as church members and the love of Christ is in our communion. We'll have the balm and Gilead from God and from each other to keep us strong as some of the controversies develop.
Speaker 1Oh, wow, amen. You know we've kind of taught our church members that you know and there's a lot of truth in this too that God has a wonderful plan for your life, because he does. Ultimately, we have eternal life. We have salvation through Jesus. But we need to understand that persecution is coming and there are going to be times when you may not feel that your church is on your side or your country is on your side. The question is will you stand like Shadrach, meshach and Abednego, on the conscience and on the Word of God? That's going to take a lot of courage, and if we're still at a place within our own churches where we're ready to walk out because we don't like the music or we don't like what the pastor said that Sabbath or whatever else, boy, is it time for us to soldier up, like you're saying here, and be ready for what's coming, knowing that Christ will be with us in the fiery furnace. But the fiery furnace is coming.
Speaker 2Well, I actually believe that the Spirit of Truth will put us in contact with each other. That has a refinement dynamic. If the wounds of a friend can be trusted and if iron sharpens iron, the Spirit of truth will be challenged and tested. And actually having the love and the courage to have the dialogues and to pray about internal family matters is going to give us a little bit more backbone, a little bit more nerve for dealing with people that don't know much about the truths of Revelation. So we've got to have the spirit of truth to actually be the people of truth, and one of the best ways to know you don't have it is when you go to refusing to talk with people or you let your emotions separate you. You know, paul and Barnabas had a pretty serious conversation. They vehemently disagreed with their Jewish brethren about the Gentiles. They ended up vehemently disagreeing with each other about John Mark. We're going to have to understand how to do proper biblical dialogue, which we might call conflict resolution too. The spirit of truth will be tested.
Speaker 1Wow, that's true, man, it's very true. I want to share another quote with you because you know we hear a lot today and this is unfortunate but it's becoming more and more common to speak negatively about the Constitution of the United States. Yeah, but LNY doesn't do that. No, she calls it the grand old document. And look at this quote right here. It's in the same chapter and, again, the last quote I gave was on page 433, and this one's on 432. It says the Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience. Nothing is dearer or more fundamental than liberty of conscience, but it's the Constitution that protects that, that guarantees that. And so you know, I think obviously the devil wants to get rid of that little document there so that he can flood this world with what we know is coming through the beast power. Your thoughts on the Constitution, anything you want to share on that?
Speaker 2Well, it's going to be overthrown. It has to be overthrown While we have it. It's to be used as a tool. You know, paul used his Roman citizenship for the advancement of the gospel, and so it has to be overthrown because in the history of man it's the only civil government that has enshrined the liberty of that direct relationship with God. So in the end it must be jettisoned. But until it's jettisoned it must be protected and defended.
Speaker 2And, by the way, the word conscience is not in the Constitution but religious liberty, and she uses those two terms interchangeably. But religious liberty and she uses those two terms interchangeably. And I want to make sure every Seventh-day Adventist knows that, because we went through a dynamic in the last five years that was for some a liberty of conscience issue, for some it was a religious liberty issue. And I'm not sure, when we parse out how she uses the terms, that they're much, if any, different. She sees conscience as the expression of the human relative to the impression of the divine, and that is real religion. So we're going to have to do that. Defending that document is probably the most divinely inspired human document, outside of the scriptures and the writing of Ellen White, that exist.
Speaker 1I think it's the oldest lasting constitution, at least one of the longest lasting constitutions in the world.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it was Franklin who said we've given you a republic. If you can keep it, you can keep it, and that's a function of the soul of the nation, of the culture, of the collective character of the nation. Unfortunately, as selfishness and self-indulgence and a wrong understanding of liberty, which is licensed, develops the character to keep. The Constitution is ebbing away, but there are many that are still defending it, and we should be right there with them.
Speaker 1I think so and be ready when the time comes, like you said, because we know clearly from Revelation 13 that this combined power of the sea beast and the land beast, papacy, in the United States there will be an enforcement of these things. So the Constitution will go away. The First Amendment's going to go. It's predicted and we need to be ready for that. But we need to stand up and try to hold it as long as we can.
Speaker 2Well, it's an amazing right and it's truth, and it protects the essence of what God protected in the Garden, which is you're now going to be slaves to the devil unless you want me to be Lord of your life. And that's why they'd have their ear pierced with an awl if they wanted to become a slave in a Hebrew household. It's because they said this household's better than the one I've left, it's better than the one I think I can create. So in the garden, god said you've sold yourself to a new master unless you want to choose me. And so this constitution recognizes that right to choose, with a higher authority than a civil government, the lordship of the true king of the universe. And so it must be protected.
Speaker 1Amen. Well, it goes back to the founder of Rhode Island, you know, and the concept that the Ten Commandments the first four or five, are your responsibility to God. The government doesn't get involved in that, but the other ones. That's where the government needs to make sure that we are treating each other and people have religious and civil liberties, that we are treating each other and people have religious and civil liberties. So that's fascinating, that that's built into the fabric of the West in the United States.
Speaker 2Well, it's the great genius of the Western world and its genius is built on the Bible, which actually draws a line between what is Caesar's and what is God's. And while there is some overlap, most nations recognize that you can't kill, steal, lie, perjure, you know adulterer. Those things have their value and they do align with the Bible, but governments don't accept them because the Bible says them. They accept them for their legitimacy of maintaining civility in society.
Speaker 1Wow. So the law of God makes absolute sense, and it's what makes nations great, as long as it blesses the nation whose God is the Lord.
Speaker 2And it's up to the church to keep the culture strong with the power of the Spirit and the power of the Word. And this is where Protestantism in America has largely failed Now. I say largely because there are many still true-hearted people, a high estimation of the inspiration of the scriptures etc. But culturally we've kind of told people you can have the world and have Jesus too, and it's been the undermining of the culture.
Speaker 1You know, not only is the Constitution under attack today in a lot of ways too, ron, but the whole United States is. I mean even nobody hates Americans more than Americans, it seems like these days. Have you noticed that?
America in Bible Prophecy
Speaker 2Well, we're in an interesting place. We lost the culture of righteousness and you know, righteousness exalts a nation. The Bible says We've lost that and now we're in Isaiah 5, where we call good evil and evil good. So we don't have the basic building blocks to know how to protect the culture and we've seen an abandonment of commitment in marriage, abandonment in parenting. We've empowered young people to think they know more than their parents and while they do know lots about technological things, life is the great educator. So the revere for older people has been undermined. We're kind of imploding in many ways and yes, we're a culture right now that's not quite sure what to make of themselves in many respects.
Speaker 1And so you can see why the second beast there would latch on to the first beast because somehow to find some credibility and maybe to restore itself in some ways.
Speaker 2Well, the beast that is going to give the civic power has still got a lot. He's flexed his muscle with authority, still a mighty military, still a mighty police and surveillance operation in place, so you can lose your character and still hang on to your power, which makes everything more dangerous. Oh boy.
Speaker 1Yeah, that church and state flexing the power like we see it there, yeah, it's coming. You know, I love my country. I love being an American. I'm very, very grateful to be here and I love how, in Revelation 12, it talks about God raising up this country as a place of refuge for people to come, for him to be able to launch a place where people could worship and have civil and religious liberty, right. So there's a lot of positive about this country and we don't ever want to forget that, do we? That this country's had a huge impact in sending missionaries around the world and impacting people. There are many people today that are in the faith because missionaries came from this country there and they had civil, you know, and they had their religious rights here. But we know things are going to change, don't we?
Speaker 2in.
Speaker 1Revelation 13?, but I wanted to share this with you. I love this quote right here, and this will be the last one. It's in Great Controversy, page 442 in the same chapter. It has been shown that the United States is a power represented by the beast with lamb-like horns. So we know that beast is that lamb-like horn, beast is the United States, and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when? I think that's interesting, that's an interesting word. There are a lot of people talking today about how America has already spoken like a dragon, it's already did this, its inception wasn't really Christian, and on and on and on. But she says it says, here she goes, that it has been shown that the United States is the power represented by the beast with a lamb like horns and that this prophecy will be fulfilled when the United States shall enforce Sunday observance, which Rome claims as a special acknowledgement of her supremacy. So she's saying, specifically, when this prophecy becomes a reality, and that is when it declares a Sunday Sabbath and joins church and state.
Speaker 2Well, you know, inside American culture there's been kind of this doctrine of manifest destiny. America was destined to be the last beacon of light on a planet in rebellion and while it has had its warts and its blemishes, it has been a nation through most of its history that has sought, when the collective conscience becomes aware of what is wrong, to make it right. And trying to retrofit wrongness on a journey of going to higher ground is a great misconstruing of the history of America. To deny those problems is also a great misconstruing. But the Bible prophecy sits supreme and this nation was lamb-like. It is losing a bit of that lamb-likeness.
Speaker 2To go back and project dragonhood on the beast from the beginning is to come out of alignment with the biblical prophecy and the commentary from great controversies. So we've got to be able to prophecy and the commentary from Great Controversy. So we've got to be able to exalt the good and align ourselves as loyal citizens of what I believe has been the greatest country on the face of the planet and at the same time, let's be honest. But then there's the prophecy that says there is a big U-turn coming. We're starting to see cracks in the pillars that support the civility and the religious freedom. But it has been a good nation and for its mistakes we should be acknowledging and willing to make amends and write however we can, but this is where we're at.
Speaker 1It's good news to know that, isn't it that the Lord stands among the candlesticks?
Speaker 2Yeah, he doesn't say. You know, there was that period in Old Testament history when God told Moses move the sanctuary outside of the encampment, but no God's amongst his people, amongst his people.
Speaker 1I will never leave you nor forsake you. And he says that I'll be with you to the very end. And he says that I'll be with you to the very end. So we have that hope that, no matter what is coming and we know it's coming that the Lord will be with us, like he was with the three Hebrew worthies.
Speaker 2There's no hope without that.
Speaker 1No, that's right, and you know it's pretty phenomenal. Emmanuel, god with us. I would say this is probably the time to press closer to Jesus than ever before, isn't it?
Speaker 2It is.
Speaker 1You know, it's one thing to stand up for the Constitution and be faithful and saying the truth about what is coming, but we know that eventually this stuff is going to happen, as exactly the Lord said it would. But our comfort is that we have the Lord by our side and now's the time to build and forge that strong relationship with Him.
Speaker 2Yeah, we got to take some steps of faith now. Our commitment's got to grow and I think we need to hide more of the word in our heart. I think of Isaiah 59, when God says he looked to see if there was an intercessor. You know, things are going wrong on planet earth. He doesn't see one. So he puts on the garment of vengeance, he clothes himself in victory, he comes down amongst his people and when the enemy comes in like a flood, he raises up a standard. So we don't have anything to be afraid of except ourselves. I think and I pray regularly Lord, save me from myself and save the people from me too, in humility and in focusing on Jesus. It's going to be more than okay. We're going to be like an army, glorious with banners, and we're going to get to make a seven-day pilgrimage to the new Jerusalem. We're going to get a lot of honor we don't deserve and we're going to acknowledge it all is wholly due to Jesus. But those who honor me, jesus says I will honor.
Speaker 1Amen, Ron. What are you looking forward to the most about the second coming, when you actually see Jesus up there in the clouds with his angels and we're starting to ascend? What do you look forward to the most?
Speaker 2I just want to hear his voice say well done, good and faithful servant. I want to look around and see the people I love and I want to look around and see a lot of people that I worked for and I want to see everybody else. I want to see the family put back together without the ravages of sin. It'll be awesome.
Speaker 1Amen, amen, yeah, praise the Lord man, and that's our hope, isn't it? We can never forget that A lot of our at least for me, a lot of our preaching today is about how to get by in this life, and that's not bad.
Speaker 2It matters.
Speaker 1It absolutely does. But, boy, we're going to be spending eternity there, and so it's so good to think about that, isn't?
New Ministry and Future Plans
Speaker 2it. This is the practice session. It's our probationary journey to see if it's really real. And of course it is real. All kinds of lives have been transformed, but it's got to be real in our lives, in our homes and in our churches.
Speaker 1Amen. You know, ron, you've gone through a transition in your life and ministry and there's a new chapter ahead of you and what's your plans? What are you thinking down the road?
Speaker 2Well, I appreciate you asking. Not too long from now I hope to be announcing the formation of a new supporting ministry and I am looking forward to all kinds of opportunity. Currently I'm here in Maine. I'm looking forward to being up at Camp Lorwald and sharing with everybody. But I've got a pretty full schedule through the rest of this year and I plan to go out and do a lot of preaching and teaching. But I'm also looking forward to establishing a lot of the work that was going on in my last chapter, working directly for the church. Now I'm working for the church. I'll be working for the church in a supporting ministry. I look forward to starting something that will be a subsidiary ministry called the Institute for Church Renewal. I look forward to talking about organizational behavior, leadership, funding. The Lord blessed me and everyone at least I believe my early churches. I don't know, I'd like to go back and look at the records, but in the last 30 years the Lord's blessed me with fundraising and I'd like to be able to teach other lay people and pastors and teachers the principles that create fruitful, effective, bonded teams and effective leadership. So there'll be a preaching teaching ministry.
Speaker 2I especially have a special interest in the educational work. You know we've kind of gravitated towards informative education work. You know we've kind of gravitated towards informative education. But the mandate out of our early years and now the Spirit of Prophecy is for formative education hand, head and heart. And about half of our kids should never go to college. They should go out and work with their hands as bakers and chefs and builders and electricians and plumbers. But everybody should learn some of that. So I am very interested in the medical missionary work as well, plan to have a subsidiary part of our ministry that does this.
Speaker 2Because at Village in our last place, we began doing in-house lifestyle renewal programs that we called immersion programs and people were being converted, the bonding that went on in that 10-day series inside the local church without—I do want to see institutions built and developed. But your church can become a place where, with proper carefulness, you can do lifestyle education and people's lives can be transformed every bit as much as at an institute and we plan to develop an institute actually, but without a huge outlay of cost. I really believe our local churches could impact the well-educated and the well-to-do as well as those that are ignorant. So I've got a broad spectrum of interests that I look to develop, look to be launching soon Love the Seventh-day Adventist Church, only want to support it and make it stronger. And now, after serving it for 37 years, I'm going to serve it in a slightly different structure. But I'm going to be announcing in a few weeks the name of the ministry and it's hosting places on the web and everything else. But thanks for asking.
Speaker 1Oh, it's really. It's great to hear that, and I see that you're already out traveling all over the place. You're probably pretty much traveling almost every weekend, aren't?
Speaker 2you. Well, it's been a lot and it's going to be a lot more, but yeah, it's most weekends now. So and I'm thankful God's people all over the place are interested in doing what you're doing here, which is getting serious about the gospel, the prophetic understanding we have, and getting ready to go home.
Speaker 1That's wonderful, ron. I know you're going to have a good time this weekend. People are excited, they love you and it's going to be a real chance to really connect with a lot of good people here in Maine.
Speaker 2Well, there's so many good things going on right here in this conference and I just want to say how much I love the Northern New England Conference, so thankful for your leadership and the others that you have built a team into around you. And you know those things take a lot of work, they don't happen by accident. Relationships are high-maintenance things and I'm just thrilled to see the spirit, the commitment to truth, the love of the church, the willingness to talk, and for me this is true Adventism.
Speaker 1Well, amen, I appreciate that, ron, and again, we're very glad you're here and I think it's been cool to have you for our first podcast in northern New England, my pleasure.
Speaker 2I'm thrilled.
Speaker 1And I see our tech guy back there, our communications director, dustin Johnson, smiling. He's put this all together. You've got a good one. You've got a good guy. We love Dustin. No, you can't have him. Conference presidents you just cannot have him.
Speaker 2You've got to be careful about them.
Closing Prayer
Speaker 1I know I don't want to say too many good things about them, but anyway, ron, would you have a special prayer for the Northern England Conference? And also, there's a lot of people watching this and I'm sure that, whatever their issues are, whatever their joys and sorrows, maybe you could lift them up in prayer too. I'll do it. Thank you, brother.
Speaker 2Lord, thank you so much for your dear church, the family of God on earth. And, lord, I'm praying that you'll bless, as you desire to bless, especially bless, this Northern New England Conference. Continue to give its leaders strength, its administrators and leaders, pastors, teachers, all of the different individuals that constitute its churches, and I pray bless this weekend, its churches, and I pray bless this weekend that's coming up. Bless this podcast.
Speaker 2And now, lord, I do pray for everyone that listens. May they realize you still draw near to those who draw near to you and I pray, carry their burden. Speak peace into their heart. May they know you forgive their sins and that you've got a bright future for them and no matter what they're stepping away from, as they step towards you, may they realize that the path of the righteous grows brighter and brighter. So now, lord, may we keep our eyes on Jesus. May we understand our salvation is a gift. May we not be afraid of the future. May we love you and love the people you've called us to love, to help get them ready for your soon return. And thank you now for this time together in Jesus' name, amen, amen, amen.
Speaker 1Thanks again, ron. Thank you everybody. God bless you.
