Through A Sister's Eyes: Watching The Signs Unfold

In this episode, I’m joined by my sister Amber someone who stood beside me through my experience of domestic abuse, even before she fully understood what was happening.

This conversation isn’t just about my story it’s about the ripple effect of abuse. How it impacts families. How it changes relationships. And how hard it can be to support someone you love when they’re living in survival mode.

Together, we talk honestly about what it was like from her perspective the red flags she noticed, the moments that didn’t sit right, and the guilt that can follow when you look back and realise something wasn’t okay.

We discuss:

• The subtle signs that something wasn’t right personality changes, distancing, silence
• How control shows up quietly before it becomes obvious
• Why family and friends often sense something before they can name it
• The reality of bruises, excuses, and covering things up
• How isolation happens  even within close families
• The impossible position loved ones are put in: wanting to protect, without pushing someone away
• Why “just leave” isn’t helpful  and what is
• How shame, fear, and trauma bonds keep people stuck
• What it’s really like when the truth starts to surface
• How abuse affects not just the victim, but the entire family unit

This episode is for:

• Survivors who feel misunderstood
• Family members who carry guilt or confusion
• Friends who don’t know how to help
• Anyone who has ever trusted their gut but didn’t know what to do next

There is no perfect way to handle these situations.
 But being a safe place can save a life.

You are not weak for staying.
 And you are not wrong for needing time.

If you’re listening and worried about someone you care about:
You are not alone, and there are resources to help you learn how to support safely.

• The Survivor’s Handbook from Women’s Aid offers practical information for anyone affected by domestic abuse  from safety planning, understanding abuse, and options for support.
• The Friends and Family Handbook provides guidance on how to approach someone you’re concerned about, how to listen without judgement, and how to encourage them towards support in a way that feels safe.

Both guides are available online check the links in the show notes for direct access.

If someone is in immediate danger, always call 999.

You doing something as simple as listening or learning how to help can make a real difference. 

House of H.E.R. is a space for women who have lived through abuse, trauma, and relationships that broke them. This podcast exists to tell the truth, raise awareness around domestic abuse, and remind you that you are not alone in what you’re healing from.

Resources & support:
 https://stan.store/houseofherpod

Join our healing community:
 https://patreon.com/HOUSEOFHER

Follow @houseofher__ and my personal account @holliedowdingx on Instagram and please share this episode with a woman who might need it 🥀

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Hi, guys, welcome back to the House of Her podcast, the home of helping women becoming the most healed, empowered, rich version of themselves. Tonight I'm joined by a very special guest and a very special person to me. But before I introduce her, I just want to read a quick trigger warning. So in this episode, we talk about domestic abuse and the lasting emotional effects it can have. The conversations are shared to raise awareness and help others feel less alone, but this may be distressing for some listeners. Please take care of yourself while listening and do whatever you need to do to feel supported. Hi. Welcome to the House of Her. And has been a huge part of my journey with domestic abuse. So I thought it was really important to bring her on for this episode to not only talk about how this and situation and these relationships can not only affect the victim but also their wider family, but also to help shed some light on how, as a relative or a friend, you can support someone going through it, or how you yeah, how you can help them. So we've always been super close. How would you have described me before this started in the nicest way possible? Any nice things to be said here. Um I would definitely say you were confident, more confident. Not just in not just in kind of how you are as a person, but in most areas of your life. You laughed more. You're getting back to the way. Yeah, probably a little bit more like light. You were lighter. You were lighter. Um it's almost like you're, you know, you're like this. You was a bit more and now I'm a bit like this. Yeah, you've got you're kind of one up, one down, doesn't it? Um but yeah, you was just you was Holly. You was scatty, but you always will be. You just and I in that I mean that in the nicest possible way. You're just Holly, Holly's in Holly's world that you've just been that like airy, fairy, you know, happy, confident, funny. I think yeah, I was a lot more like laid back. I feel like I'm not as like over anything now. Mum always says, doesn't she? I was so laid back that I almost fall.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Horizontal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

So when for you would you say you noticed maybe like first red flags? Like, did you ever have red flags from the beginning? Was there ever like can you remember a time that you sat and thought, do you know what it's really funny because obviously I never really spent that much time. I think I chose not to, because I kind of I said to you from the very beginning, didn't I, that I just didn't have it's so hard in there. I didn't have it's not that I didn't have a good feeling about him, I didn't have a good feeling about your relationship with him. I think there was a few things that you'd kind of said in the beginning, and I just wasn't sure of your relationship with him. So I think I naturally chose to not be around him as much, um, which is hard when me and you are so close and I would be at your house all the time anyway. But I just remember a few things, and it's so weird to say because I am the most affectionate person, so seeing a man and a woman or a man be really affectionate with a woman would never ever trigger anything to me, but I just every time he would put his arms around your he'd it just felt so odd, I can't explain it, and I felt found it really uncomfortable being in his presence. I I can't explain it, you just feed off of an energy, right? I actually spoke about this. I don't actually know or think you've actually watched my episodes because I know as a family it's quite really difficult. A lot of my friends and family. I think my mum is quite strong, not saying that you're not strong, but I think mum's the only one who's really strong enough to sit, she does actually listen, but I know like you sit a lot of my friends don't, they've put it on and then they've had to turn it off and come back to it. So I don't actually know whether you've sat and listened to any of the episodes, but I actually talk about this and you saying to me in Spain, yeah, like, and I it's one of the things that you first ever said to me was like, he doesn't put you down. Like every time I look at you, he's got his arms up, we'd be sitting on the beach and he'd be cuddling you. And I remember you saying it to me, and at the time I was like, It's nice, like just what why are you saying that? But it was an unhealthy amount, yeah. Like, I'm I'm in my relationship, I'm the needy one, I'm the one that wears wants a cuddle. And I think as a woman, you you want to be in your feminine energy, don't you? You want that, but I know you as a person, and I also know that's not you. That's not my love language. Like, I'm if you mean you kiss on the cheek, it's weird. Yeah, we called each other babe. I think she called me babe the other day, and I was like, This is that's icky. Um so I think that I can't even say it's a red flag, but I just I just felt off, I felt so off. Um, and then it was Spain for my birthday, obviously he came, and yeah, I just noticed things that just didn't feel right. And then I know this is gonna sound crazy, and for anyone watching, isn't that is an animal person, you'll notice. But dogs feed off energy, job dogs know they have a sixth sense, they just do. And I remember when I think it was just before Christmas, you were looking after the dogs, and I came round to pick the dogs up, and Kenzo did not stop barking at him. Kenzo is my sister's dog, yeah. Um he did not stop barking at him, and I was like, what on earth is he doing? Like he doesn't, I mean he'll bark when someone comes in the house as dogs do, but he's never ever ever done that. And I couldn't understand why. And then obviously you guys came round at Christmas, right? Yeah, and he did this. Do you remember he did the same thing? Yeah, and he's never done it. And I remember it was like relentless barking, wasn't it? It was like he was sacked, he walked through the door and he would follow him wherever he went and just like but and these dogs they're not barkers, they're jumpers, they don't not like that. Not like that. They'll bark if someone walks past the house, but he literally, every time you saw him, he'd jump on the sofa, he'd barking and he just sat there barking, didn't he? And I just remember thinking, You're a bad omen. There's something not right about you because my dogs don't do that, they've never done that to anyone in their whole existence, and you are the only person. But obviously, at that time I didn't know anything, and then I remember the first time I really I can't, do you know what? It's really, really hard because I think when you like once you know in your head, you always look back and go, Oh, I should have known then, I should have known then. And to anyone that might be suspicious of a family member or a friend going through this, it's really, really, really hard to know because I remember when you had your office and I came and you was doing you were trying clothes on or you was doing pictures, and I remember saying to you, Oh, you're covered in bruises. And you said to me, I remember you said to me about a pole hitting your face at work, which is why you had one on your face, and I remember you saying, I hope you don't mind me saying that it was from rough sex, and I just remember saying, Oh, well, I'm obviously not gonna pry, like if that's your thing, that's your thing, but obviously you'd lost loads of weight at that time as well. Um but what on earth is he doing to you? Sort of thing. But even then, like even at that point in time, I didn't think that you were in that sort of relationship. You just don't, I just don't think your mind you you think things, but you would never think that. Yeah. Um so obviously that was a red flag, and then I just think as time went on, I knew that the relationship wasn't right, and I knew that it was toxic, and I knew that he was controlling in certain ways, but because you would you would overcompensate I had nothing else to but believe, really. I had nothing else to go on, if you know what I mean. I think you try and like I was obviously always trying to cover cover it up, but I think you did, I think one of the things I always did open up with a little bit to you was the controlling side of it. Yeah, like I think And the arguments and the arguments, because I would ring and it would almost be like I I needed to know am I go am I going insane? And you could only tell me parts. But one of the things that you are always very good at, and which is what I was thinking I which is why I always opened up to you, was because you like Amber is very good at she's that one person in my life, if I am wrong, yeah, will tell me I'm wrong. She's not you know, like sometimes you can go to friends or you can, you know, go and and you have the conversation and they'll tell you what you want to hear, you know, they'll they'll side with you because that's your friend or whatever, whereas you're not like that, which sometimes I hate at the time, but it's a good so I always know when I go to you that you will give me so whenever I was saying something, and I mean, as the months were going on, it was getting more like oh, this is not normal, like this is this is not okay. Yeah, but still, then you know you can have someone who's a little bit controlled, not underplaying that, not making it right, but it doesn't you wouldn't then necessarily think no, and and I think you know, hindsight and reality are wonderful things because I think like you think that you would know that and you think that you would do something about it, but when you're in it and you've got like I I didn't want to it's so I don't know, it's so hard, it's really really hard. But I'd say red flags wise, yeah, they were probably them. Would you say, like, what did you start to see like personality? Like, when did you start? So obviously, there was a couple of times I actually remember the time in the kitchen you were doing my hair and you saw the bruises. I think I had one there and one there, and I remember saying to you, oh, a pole fell on me at the market. And I do remember a couple of conversations of like I obviously at the time I'd lost loads of weight, and you I remember you saying to me, You are a bag of nerves. Like, when do you think like did did you start to see those like personal like what was the main personality changes maybe that you saw in me? Um when you started distancing yourself, yeah. Because this I think is a really good thing. So sometimes, like maybe for people listening and stuff, like you know bruises and stuff can sometimes be hidden, but maybe like the personality changes are things to yeah. I definitely think um I noticed the patterns started to show when you didn't have the kids, and you would be very as you were when you know in the week when you had the kids and you was in mum mode. Um, but it was like as soon as you didn't have the kids or you'd have a night with him, you'd just go quiet and you just go silent. And that we don't have we speak to each other 35,000 times a day, and that's before 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, you know, like we've just and with mum and dad, you know, that's just how we've always been. And I just I started to notice that your your pattern was when you was with him, you'd go quiet, yeah, um, or you'd say, I'm not gonna be on my phone tonight, and it was like why? Yeah, because I'm you know, like what why you'd I think we noticed as well that you know, listen, you're terrible with your phone. I don't think that's something that is ever gonna change, but you was even worse, yeah. Like, you know, and I think it was it was that for me was the biggest thing, but also you were you were just a bag of nerves. It was like you and I think I've only realised it now, like looking back, yeah. It was like you was constantly looking over your shoulder, you couldn't do anything, it was just yeah, you just you just went from being this like laugh a lot holly who you could laugh and joke with to someone that just barely smiled. Yeah, yeah. I think the phone thing is like a massive one because I think the distance thing for me as well, and the further I felt like I went into the relationship, the more number one, because when I was with him I couldn't be on my phone. Like I remember actually one of the times that it got um violent was when I'd um you FaceTimed me, I think in Spain. Do you remember? And I phoned you and he'd left me. Yes, and it was because we was on holiday, I forgot about that, and you'd FaceTimed me, and he was like, Why do you need to speak to your family so much? But I would go around there and bearing in mind I was running businesses at the time as well, and I wouldn't be able to be on my phone, and then literally my phone would be like this, and he would like put it down, like and I literally wouldn't be able to look at it. And if I picked it up even in the car, it was like you're rude, why are you not talking to me? But I just felt like yeah, I just couldn't I couldn't be on my phone, or if I was on my phone and I was talking to someone, he'd seen me online, it was like, Why who are you texting? What are you doing? Who you so then I'd be scared to go online and like and have those conversations, but and I think as time went on it became more I was so sick and tired of putting on that act of like I know like with family members and friends, and I am someone who's useless with her phone anyway, but you know, like the normal conversations are how are you? How's things with having to say and it it was getting harder and harder for me to be like, yeah, everything's really good, yeah, we're good, blah blah. What you that part was became so I'd rather just not answer the phone and have them conversations. So I think the distance thing is a really important one. Yeah, I think that's a massive, like for anyone that might be suspicious of that going on, the distance is is a huge thing, yeah. Was there any times? Obviously, you've said that you don't ever think that. Was there ever a time that you did like obviously when you saw the bruises on me, did you did you did it cross your minds, but then you thought, no, I'm overreacting? Or did you just generally I don't think I sat there and thought he's he's intentionally done that? Yeah, I think I just thought that that's weird that he would cause that from rough sex. Yeah. But I didn't, I didn't and I'll be honest, I didn't ever sit there, but maybe it's my nature because I think so good of everyone that I never would expect that to be the case. Yeah, I think I think when you was in Spain that time, and I remember you ringing me sobbing, it was about 11 o'clock at night, 10, 11 o'clock at night. And I was obviously sitting with my partner, and you were hysterical, and even he was like, What on earth? And you was like, you couldn't breathe down the phone, and then I didn't hear anything, and then I just remember thinking, something's not right, something isn't right here, like it isn't right, and I think that was in was that in the April or the May? No, yeah, May that was May, wasn't it? Um, and then I mean we're probably gonna get on to this. So obviously, we've spoken about that watching me become someone different. Did you feel because it can be quite hard? And I think a lot of people that have probably got family and friends going through it, and I think something that is so you know, the message that I want to get across with you is being torn in between wanting to protect someone that you know is going through it, and probably, you know, there's times later on that we will get to when I want to go back, and also not wanting to push them away. And I think this is a really hard bit of this kind of situation because well, I'll let you answer it first, and then so like so. Do you want me to answer it once I knew what had happened, or while you was yeah, was there times when obviously, like the controlling side of it was still pretty bad? You could see me changing as a person. Like, was you it must be really hard. Well, it's like any situation, isn't it? Like when you've got someone opening up to you, uh, but you know that they need to get away from that person, and this is obviously before I knew about any of the physical stuff or anything like that. I know I would say to you, you know, in the nicest way possible, Hole, like this isn't right, like this is this is not good for your mental health, this is not good for a you know, this isn't right, it doesn't make sense, and I I actually remember saying to you, holes, it seems like the only time you're happy or he's happy is when you're at home together. There's no other time when he's happy, yeah. It doesn't make sense to me. I can't understand it. Yeah, at your age with children, it was like you weren't allowed to be a mum. Yeah, if you were a mum and spent too much time with your children, you was putting him at the bottom of the pecking altar. Like there were so many things, and it's really hard when you can see someone changing and you can see someone going through that, especially when it's someone as close to you like your sister or a family member, um, and saying leave them, but then also worrying that the more you tell someone to do something, and the more you tell someone to leave someone that they clearly don't want to leave, you're pushing them away, and it's to find that that boundary and that balance of being a shoulder to cry on and being someone that they can go to and open up to, because I found that as time went on you spoke to me less and less. Yeah, I think because it's natural, and you know, anyone in that kind of even in normal arguments, I feel like it's really difficult, isn't it? Because I feel like in any relationship you argue and you don't want to be judged, you don't want to number one, you don't want to be judged, and number two, I think you don't want to you kind of know you're not gonna leave. Like I was so dependent at that point, I didn't think I was leaving. So you don't want your family and your friends to have like you go and then tell and then you end up making up with them and then you're back with them, and you don't want them to negatively have that. So let's fast forward a little bit because this is obviously up until like this is just like the stages of you make like suspecting things. I'll never forget so when we the day we actually split up in the July when we went out for Dad's birthday. Obviously, at this point, you still didn't know any violence or anything was involved, but I will never forget what happened you ringing me. So obviously. Yeah, go on, I'll let you. So it was a Sunday, it was the day of the England final. We was going out, my partner was away, and it was about half Oh my god, are you gonna talk about the The police knocking at the door. Oh my god, I wasn't even I completely see this is what I mean, I forget about these things. Yes, oh my god, I forgot that actually happened before that day. Yes. No, that was the same day. Yeah, but I was gonna talk about when you rang me when we left and you was like you sort of Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I forgot this part. Oh my god, see, I just forget so much. So yeah, it was about half nine, I was in my dressing gown, and a knock at the door. And I mean, where we lived, we never really had anyone knock at the door unless it was a delivery driver. Um and I remember walking to it was kind of a bit of frosted glass, and I remember looking thinking, police officer. But then my heart went because obviously, like my boyfriend was away, and I'm thinking, Oh my god, has something happened to him? And then literally I remember my adrenaline just went through my body, my legs were shaking. He was making me go, look at all the hairs there. And I remember I opened the door, um, and he was like, Are you Amber Dowdy? And I said, Yeah, he said, Um, can I come in? And I was like, No. It was a police officer on his arm. I mean, it could have been anyone, do you know what I mean? Leads that you don't you just don't know. Um, and he was like, Um, do you live here with your partner? And I was like, Yeah, and I thought, oh my god, what on earth's happened? What's happened to him? What's happened to him? Um, and he was like, it's probably better. And I said, No, you know, I don't feel comfortable with letting you in right now. Um, can you just tell me why you're here? And he was like, Well, we're here on a domestic um abuse report, and I was like, huh? So I think initially I felt relieved because I was like, Okay, well, he's a writer, he's on holiday, he's he's still alive. Um, and I was like, I'm really sorry, I think you've got the wrong. You must have thought at that point you've got the wrong house. And he said, Well, I'm really sorry, but the name we have is Ab Art Dowdy. And he said, But we've got it off the back of a car registration, and I was like, My sister drives my car, and he was like, right? Um no, sorry, before that, he said it was an incident that happened on the 26th of June. Had my phone in my hand, and I was like, No, that was two days before my birthday. I said, I'll I said, I am from the Essex area, but I wasn't in Essex that day. I know categorically I was at home. Um, and I said, Can I ask, how like, has someone given my name in or and he said, No, it's off the back of a car registration. I said, Oh well, my sister lives in the area and she drives my car, and he was like, right, okay. So I said, Well, I'll call you. He said, No, no, we we really don't advise you to do so because if she is in a and I was like, My sister's not in a domestic violent relationship. This anyway, he was like, Look, we we recommend that you don't we'll get someone to go out to her and blah blah blah. Obviously, I called you straight away and was like, Hole, do you want to tell me? I don't know, I said you didn't you with him, and he was like, No, he's gone to the shops, and I said, Do you want to tell me why a police officer has just been at my door on a domestic abuse? And I just I re I feel like that at that moment that conversation with you, who knew they did say to you, didn't they, what had happened that it wouldn't they'd seen in a shopping centre and a security guard had reported. They didn't say they said a member of public, um a member of the public phoned the no, the member of the public had followed you back to the car, but and the only thing they could get was the number plate, and obviously by the time the police had arrived there, you had gone. Yeah. And I remember you saying to me, I've already spoken to the police about it, I've already spoken to the police about it, it's all sorted. And I said, Well, do you want to tell me what it is? Because I've just had them at my door. And you was like, it was just an argument, it was just an argument, and I just remember saying to Holly, a member of the public would not call the police on the back of an argument. People argue in public all the time. A member of the public are only going to call the police if they fear for your safety and if they think that something bad is gonna happen. And I just remember you kept saying, No, it's fine, and I still have the message on my phone of you messaging me afterwards saying, Abba, I promise you, we're in the best position we've ever been in, we're in the best place we've ever, but I knew I knew at that point in time, something had happened, something wasn't right, and then you know, when you naturally like I instantly had guilt because I was like, Oh my god, all of those signs, like the bruising, I like it all kind of made sense. Um oh my god, yeah, um, and I just remember that feeling thinking, oh my god, how have I not like all of those signs? How how did I not do anything, say anything, act on anything? Like this is just and I remember ringing a mutual friend, and I just remember saying, You need to be honest with me right now, you need to tell me right now, has Holly ever mentioned to you about physical violence, and it just went quiet, and that was all I needed to know. Um, and she got really upset and was just like I've sworn secrecy. I said, respectfully, there's no secrecy here, like this is a serious, serious situation. And she'd obviously told me about a situation that happened, and I just remember then going to the restaurant and having to sit across the table with him. I just remember thinking, I I actually don't know how I'm sitting here. I actually do not know how I'm sitting here, and you hadn't even you hadn't confirmed or denied anything at that point. I didn't know that this conversation that you'd actually even rung anyone at this point, but I remember I think I spoke about it on another episode of um him kicking off because my son's dad was in the restaurant, and obviously, number one, we'd had a big argument before we left because I was going out in a dress. Then it was because I'd said hello to him, but I'd never forget you. Me and him went outside at the end, and he was grilling me. And then we had separate cars that day, me and him. We drove back to my nun, you rung me, and you said his eyes. Oh, yeah, it was the it was the scariest thing I think I'd ever seen. Like she yeah, you was just like, I've never seen Well, you went outside, didn't you? And I was holding Georgie, and um I just remember looking at him, and it was like he was possessed. Like it was like I could see the smoke coming out of his ears, and he was looking through me. Wasn't looking at me, he was looking completely through me, and I just remember thinking, thank god you're in a separate card to him so that I can ring you. But I just remember saying, You have to leave that man, yeah, you have to leave him. Like this isn't this is not a thing, you know, you you just you can't, yeah. Um but at this point you'd still not said anything to me about obviously I knew about the phone call, but that you'd spoke to anyone, and then that was the night well we split up, like yeah, we had that thing Jensen nearly walked through the door, and and he left, and that was kind of it, and I was well that was the start of everything, wasn't it? That was yeah, the straw, and then I think it started coming out, didn't it, from then on? Um and I think you I think you had a deeper conversation with a mutual friend who then once I had opened up a little bit more as time had gone along. Well I just remember being away. We I was away in the August, so obviously this had happened in the July, and then I went away in the August, and it was said friend who called me or messaged me and said because I think at this point, because it took me quite a while. I think her partner had been told by him that he'd been a bit handsy, and actually, when she was asking me, I was like, I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to talk about it, and then I got to a point and I just you couldn't not I couldn't not anymore. But even then, even from the things that she had told me that you'd said, it still wasn't everything. No, no, it was like you were still holding back, yeah. But I think once, and then I think she said to me, By the way, I've told your sister, yeah. Yeah, and that was it. I just remember thinking, I think I spoke to his family, I think I just went all guns blazing because I was just like um, but I think it's I think the worst part about it, and the thing is in these situations, no no feeling that a family member or a friend feels when you know will ever compare to how you would ever feel, and it's really hard in those situations to not make it about you like to make it about me. But I just I think the one thing, and I've I really really try not to is the guilt of not not that I thought something was happening, but not acting on situations sooner. Um so I just think if there's anything to come from this for anyone listening, is if you spot anything, if you spot a change in personality, behaviours, situations, something that doesn't look right or feel right, trust just go with your gut, trust your gut, because one thing that you were so good at in this situation was covering up and making situations what they weren't, and you know, to literally text me to say we're the best we've ever been when actually you were the worst. Yeah, um I think it's also it's really hard in those situations because what can happen is you can end up pushing someone closer. Because what what I have learned through this whole situation, what we've learned, is they want you to be alienated because you would think that knowing how close a fan our family is, knowing that we are part of a friendship group, that you would never do that because I'm gonna tell people. But you don't, but it that's not how they work, they make you feel embarrassed, they make you feel ashamed, they they isolate you, you know. They know what they're doing, and they he knew that I was gonna instead of going out and being like, Oh my god, he's doing this to me, you go inwards, and you don't, and you put on this brave face, and you want everyone to think it's okay, and and you become so isolated, and that is what they do. But a lot of the time, what can happen, and what I've learned through speaking to people from charities and things like that, is you the the best thing you can do is be a safe place for them to talk to almost, and because sometimes what you can do, and it and it's so easy to do it, and actually, I think this is where we learn from because I have spoken about it on the podcast as well, was when you said to me, like you must be lying about what he'd done to you for you to go back, and I always say that's not because you were doing it like, and you were the most supportive person in that whole journey, I just couldn't wrap my head around, and because if you've not been through it, it's so easy, and the amount of people that I speak to, the girls, a message that families walk away, yeah, and and you say it because I remember you saying, you know, if you go back, I'm telling mum and dad, and I was thinking, Oh my god, oh my god. I think even you know, you could maybe let them know that they're you know, you're aware is everything okay? I'm seeing you change, I suspect this. You can trust me, I'm a safe place because you never know that person could just be waiting for that offload. So I think maybe opening up that safe that space for someone to communicate to you, but I think it's really important that that we're not in you know, saying I I'm not being a part of this anymore. Yeah, it's us or them because a lot of the time, especially when children are involved when they live with someone, I didn't have that financial connection with him, I didn't live with him. It was in my house, and I didn't have children with him, so it was a lot easier for me to break away. And actually, the charity said to me, Had you have had children with him, or had you been in a house, you would never have got out. No, we fear that that would be what it is. So I was lucky, I hate saying that word in this situation, but luckier than what some people are, and I think you do just push them, so it's just letting them know that's safe place. But like I said, there will be something that I put in the show notes. I think it's also probably really important if you are someone who takes it on therapy for you as a sister, I think is you know, because even in the court, the judge said it's not just the victim it affects, it's the whole family, and I think it's impacted us hugely as a family, you know. Absolutely, yeah, 100%. And I think like what you said, offering that safe space because I think in day-to-day life when a friend or a family member is having an argument or they're in this toxic relationship, and every week or every couple of weeks they're ringing you and telling you about an argument, or telling you, I almost feel like that was probably your way of trying to tell me, yeah, and it's like you know, you can't, it's so easy as a human being to go, oh I've had enough, they keep moaning about this, they're moaning about that, they're not changing it, they're not with them. But actually, knowing this now, my my um outlook on things has massively changed, yeah, because you just don't know what someone is going through, and you just don't know what that conversation means to them or what they're trying to tell you. So I think it is just being a little bit more patient and just offering that support. That support, yeah, yeah, safe place. Wow. I don't think we've ever sat and spoke like that at all. It's it's not easy, but it's I think it is really important for yeah, because I think it does, and I think it's so overlooked, you know, and I think knowing for people, I just think it's a really important thing to understand how to cope with it and how to festival. And there's no right way, there's no right or wrong way to as a victim or as a family member or a friend in those situations. There's no right or wrong way, but I think it is just trust you've gotten just be a safe place and support. Well, thank you for coming on. Thank you for that. Thank you for supporting me. I love you. And that is that for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. In the show notes, I will put links to women's aid websites and some support um links for you if you have been affected or can relate to anything in this episode, and we'll see you in the next. Thank you.