Integrating Rider Health with Horse Health

Dr Allison Faber Marshall talks with Dr Kristen Mowry today, DPT and owner of The Healing and Wellness Center of Davidsonville, MD.  Dr Mowry is a long time equestrienne, and through functional medicine helps humans raise their level of health.  Dr. Mowry treats riders through body work, nutrition, and supplements, and can help us understand how many of the same principles apply to their horses.  We talk today about how your health affects your horse's health, and how integrated a horse and rider are through food, environmental toxins, and stress.  Learn how to manage your own health better, and therefore how to use these principles to level up your horse's health too!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Welcome back, everyone, to the Full Circle Equine Wellness Podcast. I am Dr. Allison Faber Marshall. I am an equine veterinarian in the Middle Virginia area. I have a little mini practice in Maryland, and my practice is limited to holistic medicine. And I've been doing this for 20 years, as some of you know. So mostly I do chiropractic with some myofascial release. I did an earlier podcast about chiropractic in and of itself. And I do a lot of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. And I teach at Qi University down in Reddick, Florida. So I love to bring new and different ideas to this podcast that might be a little bit out of the mainstream of veterinary medicine. So today I am beyond thrilled to have one of my bestest friends, Dr. Kristen Mowrie, who is a physical therapist in Maryland. And she and I met over the back of her horse probably at least 10 years ago. I'm going to let Kristen introduce herself, but Kristen, it works on humans, but she and I have related so much over the years of how human health can be related to our horse health. And there are some wonderful perspectives to address with our horses. So as Kristen helps me and helps me think through nutrition and helps me think through my bod and all those things, she has educated me about myself, which I have been able to translate into all of our equines that I treat every day. So welcome, Kristen. Tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Well, thank you, Dr. Allison. Yeah, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this podcast. I am a doctor of physical therapy and I have additional training in clinical nutrition, functional medicine, and health coaching. I am a lifelong equestrian and I have been involved in care for both horses and humans for over 20 years as well. So I am so excited to be a part of this. My specialty is myofascial release, craniosacral therapy, zero balancing, and functional medicine applying to humans and helping equestrians understand their connection in their riding and in their horsemanship. So my practice is in Maryland, and it is called the Healing and Wellness Center. I specialize, in particular, dealing with fatigue, inflammation, hormonal imbalances, gut dysfunctions, nervous system regulation, and chronic stress. And those are things I think every person listening right now can relate to. Functional medicine looks at the root causes, which includes nutrition, toxin exposure, gut dysbiosis, meaning how your gut functions and dysfunctions and how it connects to the brain. And that influences how the nervous system regulates. And ultimately, what is the outcome of that is metabolic health. So I have a lifelong connection to horses and humans, and it's an honor to be here today.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

I am so excited for you to tell us all about that because I learned more about neurology in veterinary chiropractic school than I did in veterinary school. The term functional medicine is used in our society for a more holistic approach. And I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit. But I say the neurological function I better understood after my veterinary chiropractic training than I did in vet school. And how much that applies to humans, to horses, to our mammalian being is just mind-boggling to me. And I've learned a ton from you on all that. When I first met you, it was mind-boggling to me that you had you had taken so many classes and integrated so many different perspectives. Dr. Kristen has been working on me multiple times a year when I go to Maryland. And if any of you have heard me talk about the amazing friend and body worker I have in Maryland, that's her, but it's so much more too. Dr. Kristen has her own line of supplements. She has ferreted out some of the best producers of high-quality things. And therefore, she can really work with that too. So we're going to go over the human stuff first, how you assess a human, what you see very frequently in your practice, just like you said, chronic stress and what that does for us, and maybe how our environment and our diet are not serving us very well in this day and age.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, I focus on what I call root cause medicine. So I am not a prescriber. Instead, I look at the whole person when they come to me, right? Just as you would assess a horse. Absolutely. How bright are the eyes? What does the skin look like? What is the energy of that person? Is it low? Is it nervous? Is it sad? Is it joyful? Um, do they emit strength or are they timid? So being with somebody, I don't do any virtual uh consults these days. Um, I didn't love that COVID era where things shifted virtually because I love to be in person. I love to sit with people, get to know them, right? And there's the same thing, you know, Dr. Allison, that you do when you approach a horse, right? You are feeling what your body senses that they are feeling and also interpreting what they're carrying, you know. I always say your horse doesn't just respond to your AIDS, your horse is responding to your nervous system. So I am focused on the nervous systems of my patients. Are they regulated? Have they been, you know, calm and steady and uh really focused and or are they nervous and anxious and just stressed out about everything? Chronic stress is the leading cause of disease in our country, in our world. And so, you know, what I especially when I'm working with an equestrian, uh, I really want them to be aware that their horses are healers and they're very sensitive to what they're bringing to the table. So whole person medicine is my approach. And if it's an equestrian, then that extends to their equine friends as well. So, you know, I work specifically with clinical nutrition. What are my patients eating? Food is such a cause of inflammation, such a cause of nervous system input, right? Our gut matters. Our biome inside of our digestion really matters. I focus on metabolic and hormonal optimization. You know, a woman who is midlife is going through a completely different process than our teenage, you know, riders are, or my patients are, and very different than the postmenopausal picture. So I'm looking at that whole picture, going, where are they in their lifespan? And what is it that they're currently going through? I strive to restore that microbiome that's present in the gut. I make sure that my patients have detox pathways that are open because, you know, our food and our air and, you know, drinks that we drink, they're toxic. So we need to make sure that we're clearing those from our body, or else our brain is not going to function well. And horses read your brain. And horses read how your gut is functioning. They are extremely sensitive to our biorhythms, lifestyle medicine, including sleep. How are these patients sleeping? Do they get out and get sunlight exposure? Or are they, you know, under LED lights all day long or all night long? And what is their emotional resilience? So, you know, that is really important, you know, in the day-to-day life. However, it's also very important the emotions that riders are carrying out to the barn. Because the barn cannot be bearing the burden, including your horse, of all of your frustrations and all of your disappointments from that day. So instead of suppressing symptoms, we just ask the deeper questions. What is driving your inflammation? What is it that is disrupting the nervous system? What is happening in the gut microbiome? And what environmental exposures are affecting the health? So, you know, these biological principles apply across the species of horses as well. Their nervous systems respond to stress. And we can be a part of our horses' stress. Their gut health drives their overall health. Their nutrition is going to determine their resilience. The toxins that they're exposed to are going to create inflammation in their joints and in their gut. And their movement patterns ultimately are shaping their musculoskeletal health. So if horses are extremely sensitive and they're prey animals with highly refined nervous systems, they aren't reading us constantly. They're reading us for tension, frustration, anxiety, and emotional dysregulation. So, as I said before, your horse does not respond just to your AIDS, it's responding to our nervous system. So that's what I focus on tremendously in my practice. And also, in particular, with equestrians, because I want that full circle approach with my equestrians so that their horses are receiving care through the care that I provide for patients.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

I am just in awe of everything you just said, because horses are way more cognizant of their mind-body connection than we are. And I think they assume that we are more cognizant of our mind-body connection than we are. You're so right. They need us to be. So I got to have the whole history of that horse recounted for the student. I just invited my owner to talk about the whole trajectory of the case. And when I say a student, that is a veterinarian who is a veterinarian, has studied acupuncture, and is riding with me for either more learning or their hours for their clinical certification and all that sort of thing. So on the way to the horse, I said to the student, this horse has had a bunch of different problems, and nobody can seem to pinpoint what the issue is because the problems that, you know, seem to be overt. It had a trailer accident, seems to have a hip situation, but it's a whole body tightness and it's a whole body stiffness. And I just I do my Chinese medicine tongue and pulse diagnosis and I electroacupuncture her for what I find because she seems to respond really well. But to me, it seems like this whole, it has to be maybe a muscle disorder or something because the whole horse is stiff. Well, Dr. Kristen, when we got there, the client recounted the history. And when I asked her how the mare was doing, she said, she's doing fabulously. I know that her hip was a bother for her and she's doing better. And I have had this chronic hip pain and these chronic hip issues for two years, and now I'm better too. And I thought, holy smokes. Yeah. I've been treating the horse this whole time. And she's been absorbing what the rider has been dealing with. 100%. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Like yeah, it was so cool. And what a privilege that they allow us to climb on their backs with our burdens and our shortcomings. And so we owe it to them to address health ourselves and also to make sure that they're cared for as well and not just come with performance expectations and then leaving when we feel better. Well said.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Spending time with horses shows me how sensitive they are to human energy and posture and stress and the emotional state. You know, you don't these riders who come to the barn and they're on their phones and they're talking to another rider through another stall or in the cross ties. And, you know, when you get your horse from the stall or the pasture, you need to begin your connection there and put the phone down and put other conversations aside and ask them what they need. And you can present to them also what you need, but that needs to be a connection that begins prior to grooming, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Absolutely. So I think the first step in any healing is awareness, right? You've been such a witness to my healing and really helping me understand the sources of my inflammation in my body. So I'm assuming that's the place that you start with your patients.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Absolutely. I mean, their whole lifespan, right? What have you been through? Um, everything from, you know, your childhood health andor wellness andor illness, right? And how were you taught to emotionally regulate, process stress? How many life transitions have you had to go through? You know, what things in your life are unspoken? You know, when I approach a person, I am asking those questions. And the challenge is that as horse owners, as riders, even if you don't own a horse, but you are a rider, when you approach your horse, you need to consider the same for them, right? So what has their lifespan been? You know, it's it's sad, but a lot of horses, it's very transactional. You know, they're sold. You know, I don't like this about this horse, or, you know, somebody outgrows their pony or whatever, and they're just moved along. They're very connected emotional beings. So moving to a new barn is difficult for them. I was a part of that when I was little. Uh, I returned to that when I was 30 and left it prior to turning 40 just because it was so much movement and so much shuffle. And I found that it wasn't very grounding for my own nervous system. Um, but I observed, you know, fellow equestrians and trainers and riders and even the judges, you know, everybody is uh stressed out in those sort of competitions. And I thought to myself, what it would be so wonderful to come together as equestrians to be joyful, um, to, you know, share trail rides or field rides where there was no pressure, where there was, you know, understanding and accommodation for what whatever level everybody was. Movement in the horse's life is so important. Maybe they had a really rough rider prior to you purchasing that horse. Um, so you know, where where were you in your childhood? Where were you in college or, you know, your first relationship? There's there's all of that to consider that we carry, that horses sense, but we really need to make space for them so that we can understand where they've been. You know, I um I have an animal sanctuary and I have had to use your uh lovely Chinese herbs to help them transition their nervous systems. Um, most notably, Dr. Allison Shen calmer, which I would love, you know, more people to know about because it has eased some of that trauma from the horse's, you know, past. They're wonderfully beneficial, but there is definitely a burden that the horses do carry there, or even, you know, auctions, kill pens. Some of the best horses end up in very unfortunate situations. And so when you receive your horse, you need to really receive their entire story and say, I honor that. I'm here to help you and thank you for allowing me to be a part of your world. And they they receive that very, very well.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

When you were talking initially in this conversation about how you assess someone walking in your office and looking at their skin and looking at the light behind their eyes, that is actually all summed up in Chinese medicine by the word shen. And so our shen it is loosely translated as our countenance or our vibrancy. And so that's really what shen calmer does is it puts the mind back in balance. It is one of many herbs to treat the mind, which many other cultures believe is housed in the heart. So it actually treats the heart. The translation for Shenkalmer for the classic formula is called the Emperor's Heart T pill. And so if our heart is out of balance because we've been worried about stuff or stressed about stuff, then the Shenkalmer helps us get back in balance. If a horse is naturally spooky, then Shenkalmer, quote, doesn't work because it's that is what that brain's balance is. Is it a more sensitive version of uh an equine mind? So Shen is pretty important to our focus and our function. And um, it sounds to me like what you're saying is uh or what you're recommending is for those people that show, you know, we we've known for a long time that the good old-fashioned trainers will say a walking trail ride once a week is really great training. You know, there's there's lots of people, my daughter included, that are concerned if they don't get to really focus and train their horse, you know, five or six times a week. And I love to joke with her that, you know, 30 years ago, the Olympic horses got the winter off and probably got ridden four times a week. You know, we we've we've put horses into our culture, which is quite stressful, and we just think more is better. And um, I agree. You just nailed it.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, that's it right there. Uh it is so we are pushing them so hard and um, you know, checking boxes and lacking that connection. And it's just for me, I go, I want if I had a message today, it's slow yourself down. Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Slow yourself down so your horse can catch up.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yes, yes. There just needs to be that horsemanship. Um, you know, I grew up in the 80s and horsemanship was driven into me. And I'm so grateful for that because it made such a difference for me to be able to approach my pony in the field. And, you know, my pony suffered from sciatica back then. We didn't know what to do. There was no Dr. Allison. So, you know, um, I would rub her and um tell her how much I loved her. And um, you know, some days when she was uncomfortable under my saddle, I got off and I would just spend time with her, grazing, um, walking through the woods together, you know, like you would walk a dog, right? It's they just want to be with you. Um, and, you know, speaking a bit to some of the work that I do, I'm a craniocral therapist. And um, the craniosacral rhythm refers to this subdal rhythm that occurs from our brain into our spinal cord with cerebral spinal fluid. So there's actually this rhythm that's going on in the body. Now it's like little waves, right? It is a wave. Yes. So your spinal fluid flows. You don't even, you're not even aware of it, but it flows from the north pole, which is your brain, to the south pole. Which is your sacrum. Well, every living creature has this rhythm. And in my advanced training, we actually use horses who are specialized and trained around a treatment table because they can therapeutically regulate your cranial flow. So if you are dysregulated, they can regulate you. Now, I need to make this point, and that is horses want to do this for you. They are inherently healers and they want to do this for you. Now, some horses, as you know, have just been ridden and in programs and shown, and they don't have that opportunity to connect to their rider, and so they're dull.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

And I would also offer that I think that we are focused on um some breeding practices that are not breeding for an innately connected animal anymore.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Absolutely performance only.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah, well, and I think that we're kind of breeding the brains out of them. Um and we're yes, I don't know that all horses have that ability because I think sometimes we're actually kind of focused on breeding for performance, breeding for a maybe spicier temperament. Um and it's almost breeding the brains out of them. And so, you know, one of the situations that I can offer as an example would be that um there are veterinary neurologists at referral hospitals that are finding equine degenerative myelopathy and primarily in warm bloods. And it causes a degeneration in the most rudimentary areas of the spinal cord, which would be heart and respiration regulation. It can cause a neurological issue, but it also causes very unhorse-like behavior, and they can be kind of aggressive or they can be very dull and disconnected. Yes. And for those of you listening, um, that is a post-mortem diagnosis, unfortunately. It begs the question of how many of these horses actually have some of that that is undiagnosed, and um they just they're fine with you hopping on and going because they can't connect any more than that. So I I would offer that there's a lot of people out there that, you know, that's what they have their horses for is their performance and that is their relaxation. But their horses, I don't know that um even when we allow that connection, that it's always possible.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Absolutely. And and if we could help our listeners really lean into the relationship they have with their horse, they will get so much more joy and relaxation out of those rides. Um, because it is truly an unspoken language, right? Because they can't use their words. And oftentimes it's a problem that we can use our words, you know. Um and speaking to that, it it brings me back to I was searching for a horse for my son several years ago, found a lovely, lovely horse. And, you know, we went to tack him up and he was so girthy. And the owner of the horse at the time smacked him really hard and said, You cut that out. And she said, He always, you know, does this because he's just lazy. And um, so I I rode this horse and my son rode this horse, and I actually called you um and I said, I I love this horse, Dr. Allison, but there's some disconnect under me. I I don't I can't quite figure it out. And you said, you know, there's your first red flag. So we actually did a pre-purchase exam and I I did a full one with x-rays. This horse had the most severe kissing spines, and it it was so tragic because it really showed me how much pain he bared to carry a rider, but did it for this owner under whips and a spur. It's really coming at your horse with empathy and compassion and wanting and seeking to know their heart and know their issues. Because if we have issues, they have them. And that's just part of living, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:20

I think that that can all be summed up by saying that your horse is your best mirror. Yes. And so what the horse is telling you, it might actually be within you to fix. And it's uh so much of it. Um I I've had this conversation a lot with um some really, I would say, I would say older school trainers, they're not necessarily old, but the days of the pony club and as you say, horsemanship um have kind of gone by the wayside a little bit. You know, the the days of us really learning um the best grooming practices and saddle care and not, you know, horsemanship has reflected our society in that we want to hop and on and go, we want to go and show with ribbons, and we are failing to learn what cues the horse is giving us as to what it can do and what it cannot do.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

So absolutely. You are so right. And if if we could, you know, frame this podcast with with a uh headlining quote, it would be, you know, your horse should not be just a safe place for you. You need to be a safe place for your horse. And that connection is the priceless one, you know, it horse horse owning is expensive. You know, the sport of equestrians is expensive. Um, but really what is priceless is knowing your horse, caring about your horse, and caring about what you are bringing to your horse's world as well as what they are offering to you. So there is there is a reciprocity that needs to not be ignored by so in talking about that, where does someone start?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

If they feel like they are dysregulated or their horse might be reflecting some issues for themselves, um, you know, how would you approach? I know that's a a broad question because there's so many different situations that might take precedence over others. Um, but so what have you seen in your practice that um you think benefits horses a lot or benefits the people a lot? I would offer that um very superficially, uh, I don't say that every horse needs something, but I believe an omega-3 supplement is super important for them. And I think that flax is probably the one that I've seen to be most effective for horses. And I also feel as though treating the working on gut health, um, and this is opening, I know I'm I'm gonna push a button in your head and open a can of worms here, but I love it. The toxicity in our environment is translating potentially to what we feed them. And so, you know, I think it's real easy for me to say flax and a probiotic are very helpful for many horses, but I'd love for you to expound on maybe some of the things that we can do to keep our horses healthy or make a healthy horse in our eyes healthier.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Absolutely. Let's start kind of at the very beginning of your question is what I do in my practice and what I recommend for riders, right? So it's so important to be honest with ourselves about how we're eating and what we're drinking. You would never put sugar in the gas tank of your car, okay, because that is going to get you nowhere fast. Your engine will be destroyed. Really, as humans, we need to be very, very careful that we are not, you know, drinking and boozing a bunch of sugar because that really begins a process of gut dysbiosis. And what I mean by that is it takes your ecosystem in your gut and it just sets it on fire. And so, you know, just as I wouldn't pour a glass of bourbon on my orchid, okay, I would not pour a glass of bourbon down my throat. Now, um, that is not to say that, you know, I think everybody should, you know, not ever drink. I'm just saying that we need to be aware of what we are putting in our engine, okay, and be responsible for what is on our fork. And what you are putting in your body and what you are putting in your horse's body matters so much. And I will not, I would say, number one factor. Yeah. And and that creates systemic inflammation, but it also greatly affects that gut-brain connection. So, you know, my patients who come in presenting with anxiety, sleep issues, you know, joint pain, back pain, constipation, and or diarrhea, you know, it can go both ways. Um I always start at what is going on in your diet and let's clean that up. You know, if if anyone needs specific recommendations, it's specific to each person, but truly, whole foods, fruits and vegetables, lean meats, fish, good olive oils, right? You want to make sure that you're nourished. That then translates into horses, right? So they have forage. Forage is so important. You need a varietal in forage for your horses, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:44

They're born herbivores, you know. They are born herbivores. I did a podcast um in December and I named it Fun Food Facts with Tigger Montague, and she's so humble about everything that she does. But her main product is all it is, sounds crazy, but is 27 different forages. Like the variety for horses is so underappreciated and what they need in their in their systems. I sprang for it for my daughter's two horses, and I think we've been on it two months. I think it's helped them dramatically in every aspect of their health. It's just amazing.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I'll be ordering that myself. Farmland in America is so depleted of minerals. So if you're growing forage for your horse or you're buying forage for your horse and you have a lack of minerals in that, we need to supplement minerals. I mean, minerals, minerals, minerals. And I'm not talking table salt or morton's iodized salt. I'm talking real spectrum, full spectrum minerals. One of my favorites, and I'm not affiliated with any company. That's the beauty of this podcast, is there is not an affiliation. There's no paid anything. I like source. Source is very highly bioavailable minerals. Um, and I love daily gold. And I love daily gold for several reasons, but that is bentonite clay with minerals. Bentonite clay is actually a binder. And this is this is a segue, right, into continuing our forage discussion, Dr. Allison, is we have so many herbicides and pesticides in our horses' hay. So, you know, if if you are a listener and you realize the dirty dozen and, you know, the top 15 regarding human food, right? Like nobody would know what that is. I want you to explain that nobody would eat a non-organic strawberry. So the dirty dozen is all of those uh fruits and vegetables that carry the heaviest pesticide herbicide burden, right? They spray our food, everyone. They spray it because it's hard to grow. Anyone who's had to try to grow a backyard garden, you know that it is difficult to grow a garden garden without weeds and to grow it without pests. And if you are doing that successfully, congratulations. Please let me know your tips. But otherwise, these people who produce perfect produce, it is chemically sprayed. And so so is our hay, because I was very, very close friends with an old hay grower before he passed. And he shared so many things with me. But, you know, one year the weeds were were very, very prevalent. He said, Yeah, we had to spray it real heavy. Well, guess what? When that hay arrived to my farm, the horses wouldn't touch it. And what that showed me is they know the burden of the toxins that they are eating, and it doesn't make them feel good. Roundup is toxic, right? Proven to cause cancer in humans. What do we think that's doing to our horses' guts? You know, so for the owners that are like, oh, my horse has ulcers, I don't know why. Well, glycosphates is a really good place to start on that. And so to that, then we have the issue of mold in hay, mycotoxins in hay. And that also is why I love daily gold, because it has a binder to it. That bentonite clay helps your horse to bind mycotoxins in their gut and flush them out. I love that. I love that so very much because all hay has some component of mold to it, whether you see it or not, whether it is dusty or not. So, you know, you have poor nutrient density in, you know, uh a lot of the forage that we give them, and you have herbicide and pesticide and mineral-depleted soil. Well, then you think about what we feed them. I mean, Dr. Allison, I know you've looked at it, but commercial feeds are corn, molasses, wheat middlings, and high sugar fillers. And not all. So I'm not speaking to all brands, but I'm just saying in general, don't just think that that pelleted feed and that your hay is gonna do it, right? I mean, just as you mentioned, omegas are so important for them. And speaking to that, making sure that if you are gonna provide, let's say, a flax seed oil, that it's not highly processed canola oil with a little bit of flax or highly processed soybean oil. You know, you you want to make sure that the sources of what you're giving your horse are very clean.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Well, and I'm I'm a bit of a fan of just whole flax. I think whole flax probably the place. Absolutely. I have a couple thoughts before you continue all of this information. Number one, the the clean 15 and the dirty dozen for all of our listeners are on something called the environmental working group.org. So ewg.org, you can look up for your own food what the more laden pesticide produce is, so you can make sure that you eat organic there. And the clean 15 uh is produce that is not typically grown with pesticides. So you don't have to spend the extra money all the time in going organic in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

And so what these ingredients in our, you know, horse's hay and feed, grain, balancer. You have your horse on glucosamine and MSM, and you're you're doing all these expensive supplements, really pay attention to the feed. Really pay attention to the quality of forage that you're putting. And it should be a varietal of forage that your horses have exposure to. Um, so that inflammation is in their joints, is in their gut. And what that ultimately produces, because there's a result to that, is behavioral instability. These are the horses that'll have a great ride one day, and then the next, they just can't take it because they're not recovering, because their metabolic processes are overloaded. If the rider's crooked, the horse is going to become crooked. And that is exactly speaking to what you found earlier with that freesian. Movement patterns and asymmetries, you know, when when things are not lined up, make strength imbalances. This is where a lead change is beautiful from one side, but not to the other. If you want your horse to be supple and engaged and very comfortable under your saddle, you need to make sure that they are properly fueled and cared for and that you are well.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

And one of the things I'm thinking about as you're talking is that I went to a lecture, and one of the things she said in her lecture was horses are meant to graze those 27 different types of forage. And what we do is we spray our own pastures for weeds. Now, I understand buttercups are toxic when you use, you know, when there are bushels of them. So there are there's absolutely such a thing as an unhealthy pasture. But she said, we spray our pastures for weeds, we turn them out in this monoculture of grass, and you know, we're turning them out into the chocolate factory. And then we wonder why we have so many metabolic issues is because they are unable to graze the variety that they need. So I think that really speaks um to a lot of issues. And I think spraying the hay so that it is also monoculture, you know, that is really not necessarily well, it's very, very bad for the horses from the spray perspective, but also from the monoculture perspective. Um, she was right. And I thought that that's kind of wrung in my head for the 20 years that I've done my own practice um with holistic stuff is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

And a lot of people will say, well, you know, that's all that I can afford. And and then, but but on the back end of that are a lot of veterinary bills that come with health consequences. So, and that's the same exact thing for humans, you know. No doubt. You you think the price of quality food is expensive, try checking the price of cancer, right? That's a Joel Salatin quote. And he's he's also uh a lovely farmer in Swoop, Virginia, in the Shenandoah Valley. I have toured his farm, I have met him and been with his family. They're brilliant in that they rotate their pastures. He has specifically grown different forage in different fields and rotates the cows that he ends up slaughtering for, you know, meat so that they have all of that nutrition, that full scope of nutrition. And so we need that for us, but we also need to consider that for the horses is, you know, your day-to-day costs might be cheaper, but those veterinary costs for life-saving measures or medicine or injections on the back end of that are tremendous.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

I love when the universe brings me messages and knocks me in the head with them. So it has to be it has to be repeated, you know, for us dumb humans like me to actually pay attention or to go, oh, this is a clue. And I think about four or five years ago, I had probably five or six clients within six months say, out of the blue, you know, I got my horse off of all soy-based feed, and I found a tremendous difference in them. And overall, they just seem healthier. And, you know, diving into that for myself, my understanding is that there is so much GMO in our soy in America, and that is so that we can spray it with pesticides and it won't be damaged, right? And I don't know how many of us have driven along. I I'm in the country all the time, luckily, that I'm driving along and all of a sudden a field of green soybeans will be yellow. And so, and what I learned about the soy and what I learned about wheat, I I love um Dr. Zach Bush. He is a University of Virginia trained physician that has gone rogue as I have into a more holistic approach. And I love him too. Yeah, he's awesome. For anybody who's listening, I highly recommend he has YouTube videos, um, he has information out there. He has a journey of intrinsic health, which is a program that you could um be coached through. But anyway, I digress. He one of his facts was that in 1992, the Environmental Protection Agency approved the spraying of Roundup on wheat as a desiccant prior to harvest. So soy and wheat are both sprayed with Roundup prior to harvest. And so you talk, you know, I I kind of address that or want to open a discussion about that with people in some of the mainstream feed companies. And yes, you know, the actual research that we've done says that Roundup doesn't affect mammalian tissue, but it's toxic to our microbiome. So toxic, yeah. It's it wipes out our microbiome. Dr. Zach Bush says it takes about 50 years for Roundup to biodegrade in our soil, which isn't forever, but it is a long time. And it is. So what I what I think is in defense of the large feed companies, they use less expensive ingredients to keep your costs down. So these, you know, wheat midlands is the hull of the wheat, and it's in your far your horse's diet, you're in your horse's feed bag for fiber, as is the dehydrated soybean hulls. It's in there for fiber. There are more and more feed options out there for soy free and wheat free, which translates to Roundup free. And, you know, what Tigra Montague told me 20 years ago when I was a baby acupuncturist and chiropractor, at the time, she was producing little spreaded grain cookies that were a ration balancer. So for all of the warm bloods in the dressage barn she was at, she Would use the sprouted grain cookies. She would use a half a cup of flax and two handfuls of alfalfa cubes, and then just, you know, supplement the rest of their diet with hay. And it's really easy to say, but my horse is a thoroughbred. They're a harder keeper than that. There are natural ways to use less um less uh processed feeds. There are natural ways to give your horse calories without all the processing of our grains. And you know, that's come into our mainstream in the probably the last 50 years because it's convenient. And I'll digress a little more here too. Dog food. Kibble dog food is highly processed. Even I did 20% dogs for the first nine years of my practice, but I couldn't believe the difference in just switching dogs to a home cooked diet. And by that, I told people just cut your kibble in half and you know, or give them a Flintstones chewable. That's probably, you know, there's dyes in there and stuff, but it still is a multivitamin. And then you can do 50-50 ground beef and sweet potato and add some good pesticide-free vegetables in there. And I did that in my own dogs when I started recommending that. And I had um litter mate cocker spaniels that were 14. And at 14 years old, when I started cooking for them, I couldn't believe the bloom in their coats. I couldn't believe how much better those dogs did. And certainly, you know, it's pretty easy to cook for dogs because there's a huge variety of proteins we can use and all the things. I'm kind of amazed at how whole food really benefits us all. And over the last 50 years, you know, our food companies have tried to make things more easy, more efficient for us busy people. We shouldn't be focusing on efficiency with our food or our dog's food or our horses' food. We should just take a step back and treat ourselves better so that we can understand what our animals need in less processing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Yeah. No, I'm I'm tracking right there with you. And, you know, I really want our listeners to be able to relate to that. Oftentimes I will have a patient say to me, This, and this is very diagnostic. Um, they come in, they say, you know, I have digestive issues. And I, you know, we start with, you know, what do you eat and what do you drink? Right. I mean, you got you have to start there. So they say, I try to make healthy choices when I go to restaurants. So I always order a salad. But the salad, seemingly within one hour of leaving that restaurant, they say, sometimes I can't even leave the restaurant, will quote, run right through them. And this is so important because if you understood the business of a restaurant, they have to have food available to prepare for anybody on demand, right? And so then all of the fix-ins that they, you know, order on their salad is also non-organic.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

And talk about soybean oil a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Oh, sure. I mean canola oil, right? Soybean oil, canola oil, seed oils in general is, you know, kind of what is really trending right now, as it should be, right? That awareness, because then the dressings are made of highly processed, cheap oils that taste delicious, by the way, because they're laden with sugar and some salt, pepper, and herbs. And so when you put that in your digestive tract, your body is evacuating that on purpose. There's a reason. And so they say, I have irritable bowel syndrome. No, you don't. Your body is just ridding yourself of toxins before it can even be absorbed. And it's important to know that. So, you know, going back to something you said, you were saying that, you know, soy and wheat are, you know, very toxic in that they are highly processed, they're roundup ready, you know, they're they're planted. Well, there is a missing one there, Dr. Allison. It's corn. So corn, soy and wheat are America's cash crop. Corn is just sugar.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

I was amazed. I thought that it like whatever my training was as a baby vet, I was just taught that corn was not food for horses. Like it's it is so highly energetic and full of sugar that it it causes colic, it causes laminitis, it causes problems. And I was amazed looking at feed bags in the last year, how many of the mainstream feeds have corn in them? Full of it. It's crazy. I was mind-boggled because I you can hear by my talking, it didn't even fly on the radar for me because I'm like, ah, feed doesn't have, you know, corn is bad too for us, but it, you know, we don't have to worry about that with our horses. Holy smokes, we do.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Yes, we do. And you know what really opened my eyes to this? I keep my own chickens. And for most of my life, I had an egg sensitivity. They they just really inflamed my body. And it made me sad because I love eggs, right? And so when I started keeping my own chickens, my own flock, I keep them very clean, provide them with nesting herbs and essential oils in the coop. And my hens are very, very happy and they are very productive. And so what I learned by reading the ingredients on chicken scratch, they're going off of protein content so that they can lay eggs and this and that. It is corn, soy, and wheat. Now, my body are is sensitive to those three things. And so the eggs from any commercial egg production is going to be fed that industrial feed. Well, I don't feed that to my chickens. I let my chickens range. Uh, they eat bugs, they eat worms, and then I supplement their diet with the scraps from what I eat. I can eat my chickens' eggs and have no reaction. And so I have patients that have the same sensitivities as me and they purchase eggs from me because they can tolerate my eggs as well. And so you truly are what you eat. And the byproducts of what is in feed very much affects that food chain. So I thought that that was interesting and that may connect some dots for our listeners because I would never have pieced that together in the beginning of my career. But now I say, you know, where are you getting your food from? What is it sourced from? And and I love that people are really starting to care. I can't say that, you know, 15, 20 years ago, people had this awareness and cared.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

But as inflammation is going up, you know, as an epidemic in our bodies. I mean, if you're popping Advil or Tylenol or, you know, taking tons of turmeric, you must ask yourself why you're so inflamed.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

And, you know, that can be from a lot of different toxins, but always start with the food and the foundations. Are you getting enough minerals? Is your horse getting enough minerals? Are you binding toxins in your world, right? Via supplements, be via bentonite clay, whatever it is. Are you helping your body detoxify? Then are you helping your horse detoxify? Um, so just as we do for ourselves, we must do for our equine friends. Very important.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

For sure. And I think it bears saying at this juncture that it isn't always that certain foods are inflammatory. It is that the way that we are cutting costs by raising things differently, by farming things differently, that it creates can have inflammation in it. I have an organic co-op. So I get my veggies every other week. And I've never been a real big tomato fan, but one summer, you know, I got a load of tomatoes from my CSA wonderful farm bus organic farming co-op. And I thought, you know what? I love gazpacho. I'm gonna make gazpacho. And my joints hurt for a week after that, and I had to give my huge thing of gazpacho away because even organic, the tomatoes kind of tended to be inflammatory for me. Now I haven't tried that again, and I can tell that there's been a lot of stress relief in my body in the last 18 months. I could probably try that again, and maybe the inflammation load in my body is better so that I could tolerate the gazpacho that I love so much. But it's it's fascinating, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Well, sure. And, you know, creating another common thread that I see in the equine industry is riders putting their horses on citerazine, you know, the anti-uh histamines. And um so we have to look at the big picture of, okay, well, why all of a sudden, okay, are all these horses having histamine issues? Well, if you dial that back to the human world, um we as functional medicine practitioners are seeing a wild, and I mean wild bloom of histamine issues in humans. And and ultimately what that leads to is mast cell activation. M A-S T. Okay. So uh when somebody told me to talk about that. Yep, that's right. Yeah, when somebody first told me about mast cells, I I had had thrown it in the Google years ago and and said mast cells, like you know, the Catholic mass. And so M-A-S-T and histamines. Um, and you know, you would be fascinated to learn about them as a human. And I don't, you know, speak to this for our listeners so that they're overwhelmed. I speak more going, all right, I want you to know and take time to research this. So one of the things that those nightshades in your gazpacho could have really triggered in you is a mast cell histamine reaction. And this is indeed what is happening with our horses in their feed and in the mold exposure that they have. So I love this.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

Great job.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Yeah. Mold is so prevalent in hay. And mold is so prevalent in barns. So I became super mold sensitive to barns. And I couldn't quite pinpoint what it was, but I realized that we had stored hay in a loft above our barn for many, many years. And and the farm that I had lived on, um, the barn had been there for 40 years. So we're talking 40 years of hay storage. Um, not the same bales, of course. They come out and they go in. But on days that we stacked the hay, I felt so inflamed. And I would have a headache and my neck would hurt, and I would be so tired. I didn't have typical, you know, runny nose and runny, itchy eyes. Okay. It wasn't always that. People think histamine must be, you know, blowing your nose, sneezing. It's not always that, everyone. It it has to do with your body just feeling inflamed. And that typically leads back to your histamine reaction and your mast cells. So citerazine is an anti-in uh inflammatory/slash anti-histamine. You can get it very cheaply over the counter at the drugstore. Okay. We're very, very sensitive creatures to antihistamines because it basically gets in your body and says to your body, shut up. Your reaction is invalid, therefore I'm overriding. If you are giving your horse 20 citerazines a day and you are expecting it to be able to complete a round of fences and do all the things that you want it to do, I think you should reconsider that. Because if your horse is that heavily uh sedated in a way, and you have to give that to your horse in order for it to breathe. Oh, my horse has breathing issues. Well, you might want to take a little look at the mold level in your hay.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Well, let me ask you a question. For those of us who have an older farm and can't move, how do you recommend to deal with that? Do you have some answers?

SPEAKER_01 56:38

I absolutely do because, you know, ultimately I ended up optimizing my old farm. And so what that has to do with is sunlight, airflow, and taking a nice, you know, put on a respirator mask, take a blower, and clean your barn, right? So you want to de-dust your barn because the more inches that build up of that, you know, dust from your shavings and organic horses in there, and you have the that mud, and then you have hay going in and out. Um, one of the things that I did that was so beneficial is I dedicated a space outside, obviously undercover and appropriate for hay storage. So I removed it from the loft. Great idea. And it was so, so wonderful to do. Um, and it's it's not hard to build, um, but you really want to properly store the hay. That is essential. I really kept the hay out of the barn, other than, of course, in the stalls for the horses. And I continue to do that at a new farm where I reside. The other thing is, is just making sure that you don't have any water leaks. So, you know, unbeknownst to me, there had been a wash doll water leak. I had it repaired, I had that wood replaced. What a difference that made. So if you have a, you know, a leaky wash stall, address it. It's very important. And making sure that there's airflow in your barn and as much sunlight as possible. So, you know, if it at all matters that you can open the doors, open, you know, the loft sliding door or open up the butt the Dutch doors and allow the airflow and sunlight to come into your barn. That is so important. You just want to make sure that you are creating the healthiest environment possible in your barn, in your hay storage facilities. It's very important to make sure that mycotoxins are not contributing to that mast cell histamine reaction.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

The barn ventilation is super important. And in our culture with our horses, we've done everything we can to move them into our living room, which means that we've made their living spaces more hospitable for us. And so back in the day when barns were designed, they were designed with tall ceilings for ventilation and for air flow. Now we lock down barns, we put three blankets on our clipped horses. And I'm I'm sorry if I'm making fun of some of my clients there, but you know, I, you know, the least amount of clipping we can do for them is really important. You know, Europe has now banned clipping whiskers because they're so important, and that's a digression of as well. A lot more horses are, I've noticed, based on the tongue and pulse diagnosis that I do with Chinese medicine. I've noticed a lot more horses running hot. And what that looks like is they almost have a menopause. They are they are having a broken air conditioner, and that's basically because of our processing in our food, that we are kind of shorting out their air conditioner because it's trying to cool them down from the inflammation that is in our food. And so we are buttoning them up in barns so they don't get cold, and we're throwing blankets on so they don't get cold. And we sort of lose sight of the fact that that is what is healthy for them because we want our comfort um being around them. And uh, you know, interestingly, Chinese medicine would say that our temperature regulation in our own bodies, like there have been times in my life when I've been, I'm hot one day and I'm cold the next, and I'm I have a hard time regulating my own body in the cold, and my hands and fingers get numb and cold very easily. And I would say that's probably some inflammation that my body's trying to manage a little bit better. I would beg us as horse owners, as astute horse owners, to revisit that a little bit and make sure that you're not taking your own cold problems and putting them on your animal.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

For sure. And understanding um exactly what you just said um and what you were describing, Dr. Allison, is hormonal fluctuations from the endocrine system responding to uh what you eat and the environment that you're in. So I'm gonna give a very concrete example of this, and that would be you know, let's say that one of our listeners is, you know, on the road and you know, has to eat out and you know, is in a hotel room for the week.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

And that would be you can use me as an example.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Well, I'm just I mean, I'm just gonna give, you know, an example of actually one of the patients that I'm thinking of right now of my own, he travels a ton, right? So he is on the road, he tries to eat healthy, but has a lot of client meals and so you know can't always eat healthy. And so drinks the wine or beer at night with the clients, you know, as they go out and you know, ha has restaurant food. And, you know, I'm as you are getting further and further away from enjoying restaurant food because the next day I just feel like I have a food hangover. I don't feel well. When I cook at home, I feel amazing. So this gentleman, he travels a lot, so he eats out a lot, tries to make the best decisions that he can. And he says this to me. He's like, you know, the mold factor of hotels is crazy. And it is, right? And so he comes back home and feels horrendous. And I think it's so important because then he'll say, you know, well, what supplements can I take? And, you know, I obviously began my own supplement line and very much believe in them, but supplements cannot replace the poor nutritional foundation, nor can they erase the environmental toxins that that we're exposed to. This is so important to think about for your horses because, you know, some people travel a lot with their horses, and we really need to think about the impact of that because your horse probably isn't feeling so great, and you get on that horse expecting to make progress every ride. And, you know, some days they just are not on their A game. Some days they're hotter, some days they're colder. Look at how they sweat more, look at how they foam at the mouth more. We have to look at each horse individually, make the best decisions for them, and really think about what they are going through and what we are putting them through and what they're exposed to and what they're eating, and give them some grace when they're not at the top of their game. Um, because I I guarantee you one thing, and this is this is very dismissed in a lot of riders. Your horses, if they're allowing you the privilege of riding on their back, are absolutely giving you their best, even if their best, in your opinion, is not good enough. They're always trying to connect with us. They're incredibly sensitive beings. They're reading not only our nervous system, but our posture and our tension and our emotional state. That connection is the two-way relationship, right? And so they're not just athletes, they're partners. And in many ways, your horse is a healer. So you need to be responsible for your health and your frame. And you need to be responsible for your horses as well. And they are an extension of us. We are an extension of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:08

That is beautifully said. And um, I think we I know we have a lot more to talk about. And I think what we should do is stop this podcast for now and maybe table some of that other stuff. It's a perfect stopping point because it really for a part two. That's exactly right. But that is that is really well said. And um, one of the things I'd like you to touch on before we go is when I was very sort of baby at my practice, I felt like like before I learned my Chinese food therapy, before I really understood that I shouldn't have be having a diet coke a couple times a week, I felt as though I can eat anything. Nothing bothers my gut. And I think that was true 20 years ago or 25 years ago. But I think that over time I developed an ability to tune into my body so that I can tell when I've been eating something that isn't so healthy for me. And so I talk with a lot of people that are like, well, I can eat anything. And how in the world, like they look at me like I'm purple when I say, Well, I can eat that, and I just don't feel well the next day. Could you give our listeners maybe a little bit of some tips? And I know this is kind of nebulous, Dr. Kristen, but you know, some tips for starting to tune into their own health as well as when your horse has an off day. Look at what the preceding couple of days had in store for them. And do you have any tips for people as far as tuning into what makes them feel good and what makes them not? For me, it was doing like a month of an elimination diet that was really helpful for me because then when I reintroduced foods, then I could go, Oh, I I see how. Good I felt, and now I see how I how how how I don't feel well. And maybe you have some tips for your clients and we can share those with our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Absolutely. When I'm teaching my patients about how food affects their body, I will often say let's first start with your digestion. You know, so are you bloated after you eat? Are you bloated at the end of the day? Do you have gas? Do you burp? Do you sleep well? Okay. So I love that. The resting and the digesting, that's the same battery. Okay. And so if you're not resting, so sleeping well, you're not digesting well. And if you aren't digesting well, you aren't a good sleeper. I promise you. And a lot of sinus health is reflected in gut health. So if you have chronic sinus infections and post nasal drip and you have the nagging cough, your gut is upset. Next level to that, Dr. Allison, is skin. What does your skin look like? Are you constantly breaking out? Are you dried and shriveled? Are you, you know, really um just unhappy with how your skin looks? That is your digestion. And that in particular is reflective of your liver. And so it's so important to me to be able to connect these dots for people because people will say to me, Well, I can eat this sometimes and I feel fine, but other times I eat it and I feel terrible. And I go, aha, there's your clue. I call it the I call it the bathtub effect. Okay. So if you plugged your bathtub and your faucet was leaking slowly like a little drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. That whole tub takes a lot of time to fill up. It only takes one drop then to overflow it. That is how your immune system and your inflammation reactions go. Okay. So you can eat a bunch of crap, a bunch of crab, a bunch of crap. And then all of a sudden your body goes, I cannot and I will not take it anymore. And it draws the line. What does that person then do? Shoves Advil down their pie hole and eats more again or drinks again. The Advil is your first clue. If your symptoms are relieved by Advil, which is an anti-inflammatory, then what you are eating is inflammatory to your diet. Absolutely. So, right? So I always say to people, get yourself off of the carbohydrate train. Okay. Why? Because it dysregulates your blood sugar. What does blood sugar dysregulation do? Well, your gut's off, your pancreas is off, your enzymes aren't there, and it starts to affect your hormones, such as your thyroid, right? And so we really want people who are listening to tune into what does your gut feel like? Do you look like you are pregnant after you eat a meal? There's your first clue. Do you go to bed feeling really yucky in your abdomen? There's another clue. Do you not sleep well? Do you have hot flashes? Are you cold? Does it go back from hot to cold? What in particular are your complaints? Is it joint pain? Because I will tell you, if I eat certain foods, my back hurts and my neck hurts. If I don't eat, yeah. If I don't eat those foods, that isn't the case. But I can tell you specifically right now what foods cause headaches for me. And I can tell you what foods make me anxious. And so it's, and that's not that doesn't go for every person. So I could say, for example, you know, dairy makes me anxious doesn't mean it would make you anxious. But if I sat with you for long enough and asked you diagnostic questions, I could tell you exactly what makes you anxious. I could tell you exactly what bloats you, I could tell you exactly how to fix your sleep issues, and I could tell you how to get rid of your joint pain. I could make sure that you don't have headaches another day in your life. Can you imagine, Dr. Allison? This is my closing thought. If your horse had a headache and you don't know it, and you're just brushing them and, you know, you're mad at them because they're muddy and you put the saddle on and their ears go back and you get on them and they are just feeling terrible. And you have no clue. And then they're written in one lesson or another lesson, or somebody else's, you know, maybe you're a partial lease, and you know, so can you imagine what that does to your horse's emotional state? They're not just, they're not just a mare, you know, or you know, they're not just lazy. Maybe let's just consider that they just don't feel well. And, you know, people are paying thousands of dollars. Here's a new saddle, here's a saddle fitter, you know, all kinds of things that, you know, let's try this new supplement, let's try that. Let's actually just get to know our horse. Let's make sure that we have the foundations right, you know? Well, and let's get their diet so that they have less inflammation. Let's get the carbs out of there, you know. Yeah, and let's care for their bodies, you know. Some days at your barn don't need to be a riding day. And some days don't need to be an arena day. I want to call, you know, horse owners to a new level of caring for their equine friends and really understanding it is a partnership and that they are healers. And when we do that, we will in turn take much better care of ourselves because it's our responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

I agree, friend. I totally agree. I hate to even stop this conversation, but well, it's been an honor, you know, just to sit. Yep. Thank you. Yeah. Kristen, do you you probably don't give out any um contact info because your book is full? Is that the case?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:09

Yeah, my book is very full, but I have new patient opportunities. Very rarely I work on a referral basis, so I do no advertising or anything of the sort. But uh, I would love to share uh a contact. That way, you know, if there are questions, we could keep that conversation going. So, first, I should probably share my website, um, which then has all the contact information that anyone would need. So it's drmorycares.com. So let me spell that. It's www.dot dr m r y c ares.com. So drmorycares.com. And um I the supplement line that I have created uh is docs original vitamins. So I also have docs original vitamins.com. Uh you can find that on Facebook, you can find that on Instagram. Um, but if you listen today and you love what you heard, uh, let's continue that conversation and um expand on that, Dr. Allison, in you know, future podcasts. So if you enjoyed this today, go ahead and reach out and let us know. Um, but it was a pleasure, Dr. Allison, being with you and um and knowing you for so many years. Um just so wonderful and such an important part of my world.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:31

Right back at you, sister. I don't know that I would be the healthy, aware person that I've gotten to be. And I know there's lots more for me to be healthy and aware about, and I'm really grateful for our trajectory together because I think we teach each other so much, and that's part of the beauty as we all age. We understand that we have a lot to learn and we value those people that have the experience in maybe different walks of life that can help us help level us up a little faster. So thank you. Yes. And thanks for being on the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. We'll talk soon. All right, take care.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

Bye. Bye.