"The Path Forward"

Orly and Abe speak to Academy Award-nominated, Emmy- and Peabody-winning documentary filmmaker Julie Cohen and Palestinian American peace activist Mo Husseini about their short film, The Path Forward.

Transcript

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Thank you so much, Mo Husseini and Julie Cohen for being here today for our inaugural first episode of Peaced Off! Mo Husseini is a Palestinian-American filmmaker, writer, and creative director whose work spans film, live experiences and political writing.

And it's all driven by the same impulse: 0:31

to tell the truth in a way that people can actually hear. With Julie Cohen, Mo also co-directed The Path Forward, a short documentary about Palestinians and Israelis who've lost loved ones but still choose dialogue over vengeance, and we're going to talk about that film today. Julie Cohen is an Academy Award™-nominated, Emmy™-winning documentary director and producer. She's directed more than a dozen documentaries, including RBG, and My Name Is Pauli Murray, and co-directed The Path Forward with Mo. And Abe Gurko is co-producing the Peaced Off! Initiative at the Film Collaborative. He's a writer-producer whose mission is also the title of his book, Won't Be Silent. Thank you all for being here. I'm super thrilled to have this discussion with you. And I want to start by just asking you about The Path Forward. And, what inspired you to make this film in the first place? I was inspired by Julie who reached out after I had written some stuff and, credit where credit is due, like, really. I think. Julie crystallized this into a project in a way that really made a lot of sense. I think both of us, very separately, were out there trying to find people who were doing the homework, for lack of a better description, of actually talking to each other and seeing each other and acknowledging each other. And, through that process, is actually how we connected, both of us. Julie had reached out to me and, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I definitely want to talk to Julie.” And really, the project came out of that. Awesome. And then, I mean, Julie, how did you, I mean, both of you guys decided on the subjects of film, but just can you talk about your process in choosing the subjects? Yeah. I mean, you know, like Mo says, each of us individually, we're out there on kind of, desperate, I would say personal search for voices of, sanity, I think, on the Palestine - Israel issue. And what interestingly, we both found is that when you look for them, you will find them, like, they're there. They might not be the main voices that one is hearing, in the mainstream media or God forbid, social media, or even like truthfully, like in, I would say, my own personal circles, there's a lot of flailing, unhelpful noise and, the way that we chose from among the quite ample supply of voices where we kind of made a decision pretty early on that we wanted to do this in pairs, that the most useful conversations about this seemed to be dialogues between Israeli Jews and Palestinians. And the way we selected them, there were many more that aren't in our film. The way we selected kind of our main people were the ones that kind of maybe resonated personally, with the two of us. And truthfully, we were doing this on a very short time frame. So also people that were, available and we really focused around talks that people were doing in the U.S. and in Western Europe, because we kind of meant this as a conversation for those who are talking and listening from afar on this. So, we just picked people who moved us, and with the hopes that they would move our audiences also. Yeah. Awesome. And I really like how you described it, because it really just aligns with the whole mission behind Peaced Off! So it's why we're so happy to be starting this, initiative with you. And, I mean, I'll start with you, Mo. What responses have you gotten from audiences in the region? Anywhere? Pro, con, whatever range of the responses. I'd love to hear about that. It's interesting. I hear a lot of stuff out there about, you know, people being really angry and not wanting to listen and, being very polarized, etc., etc., etc.. I think, at least based on my personal experience, especially showing the film being on the road, both with Julie and separately, talking to groups and stuff like that. Kind of proving the thesis of the film, proving what Julie exactly just said. There's a lot more common ground than we are led to believe by the culture writ large. I think......I think from a news media perspective, it is deeply boring to bring on rational people who want to look at the issues and have a rational discussion. It is a lot more interesting to bring, you know, some lunatic right wing, you know, Jewish supremacists and some lunatic right wing, you know, fundamentalist Muslim and put them on television and have them yell at each other. And what happens when you see that as a, “normal” in air quotes, person is you throw your hands up and you go like, these people are crazy. And the way that media presents that is they present that as if that's the mainstream, as if, the vast majority of Israelis are just unhinged and insane, you know, Jewish supremacist and the vast majority of Palestinians are anti-Semitic fundamentalists or any of that. I think what what I felt, kind of, going out and having these conversations is that there is a massive space in the middle that we have just ceded, because it's difficult to speak. I think... You know, I'll speak for myself, knowing that it's mirrored by Julie on some level, but she can speak for that. But I've spent years not talking about this because... Because it's so, noisy and it's so hard to make a point sometimes. That as a person who, wants to find a path forward and like, no pun intended or like wants to find a way to resolve this, it just starts to feel really frustrating because you're not paired with normal people. You're paired with extremists. And so it was super gratifying to kind of go out and present the film and be in these, Q&A sessions where I think the first couple of times I was super nervous, like waiting to see what was going to hit us. And it was remarkably human and humane. I mean, even people who disagreed with us disagreed with us like adults. Like, I certainly haven't experienced anything profane or negative, you know, to where I felt threatened. I'm happy to hear that. And, Julie, is there anything you want to add to that? Yeah. I mean, I would say, look, there are plenty of people who are only interested in kind of triggering and provoking and then being triggered and provoked and don't want to have a reasonable conversation about these issues that are kind of just looking for the worst on the “other side,” like, that is there, no question about it. But if you frame the conversation as the people in our film and now the film itself does, in a more helpful, empathetic way, then that tends to draw- like there is a hunger for the message that the people in our film are giving. So, when we put it out there in the world, like this was, the low budget-ness of this project, could not be overstated. And that goes to like, really, that goes to the marketing of it. And yet when we had a week run at a theater in lower Manhattan without any real marketing, people came to it. Like, I know I know because I make a lot of movies. I know it varies. It can be really hard to even get your own friends to show up for your movie. This one, there were people who found it, including people who I don't even understand really how they heard about it, who just, who just showed up. So, you know, of course, our audience ends up being somewhat self-selected. ends up being somewhat self-selected. There are people who are coming for the message that the film has, but that's good. Like, you know, one of the people in our film, Ami Dar, who's an Israeli American, who lives in, in New York, has made the point, like, people are way too down on the concept of like, preaching to the choir. Like, if you can get the choir all singing together, like from the same, you know, hymnal, then, just to throw in……moving away from our Muslim and Jewish conversation to move it to Christianity. Like, you know, like getting those who share our thoughts about it, speaking out and singing out like actually is a huge accomplishment. I love that you said that. And there are plenty of Christians in the region, so that's great that you brought that in. And it also inspires me that we will one day get Peaced Off! to be a live event……and a peaceful one. Okay. So now I’d just like, a little bit not only about the film, but just your personal- I'm curious for both of you to speak- we could start with with Mo- Your personal loss, how it's shaped your journey as, as a peace activist, if you consider yourself that. Wow. I guess I don't really consider myself a peace activist. And, not not because I think there's anything wrong with being a peace activist or anything like that. I think it's a wonderful thing to do. I think it's more that, I don't do enough, to really consider myself to be that, like, I try to, Or not try to, I am deeply introverted. And by that, I don't mean like that I'm quiet and sit in a corner. I just, I'm not, I am not uplifted by interactions with a lot of people. I think, you know, an upper limit of eight people is where I feel comfortable. Much beyond that, I start to get drained by it. That said, when you talk to me about the idea of personal loss and the shape of my personal loss, I think, you know, I've had people I know die. I've had people I love disappear. I've had, you know, I've lived as a Palestinian watching our stories be erased or flattened or shoved into a convenient, political framing that, makes our pain either more palatable or less, you know, or less sympathetic to other folks. And I want to be clear, like, I’m not centering myself in that. I'm extremely, I've been extremely privileged and and I've lived a life that has a lot of, massive advantage that it would be ridiculous to kind of try and pretend like that, I'm a victim here. I think the more honest. The more honest thing to say is that despite it all, and this is what I try to model, no matter what is, I think it's really easy, It's really tempting, when you have a sense of loss to, to kind of get wrapped up in bitterness and to try to find meaning for your loss, for their loss, for all loss, and to try and give it value. And that value is imaginary, fundamentally. Right? And it's usually value that's created by people who expect you to understand or validate their reasons or worse, to shut up. And I think the most honest thing that I can say is that that my grief hasn't made me more tribal. It's made me more committed to breaking the the whole tribal logic. Honestly, it's made me less interested in who's right and who's, who's wrong, and more obsessed with stopping the machinery that keeps feeding on human lives. Right? Like, I, don't want revenge. I don't want martyrdom. I want people to live long enough to grow old and cranky and pissy and irritable. I want kids to die of boredom in math class. You know, When people ask me, like, what my dream is, you know, I always say, like, what I wish for Israelis and Palestinians is a boring peace. You know, the kind of peace where your worries are, prosaic.“Did I pick up, you know, did I pick up the dry cleaning?” You know, when do I have to be at the ball game? Like those kinds of mundane, normal concerns. I want those to be the concerns that Israelis and Palestine have. Sorry. With the math teacher, so she's going to take exception to your dying in math moment, but that's okay. You know, Julie, I mean, obviously I want to hear from you as well. And while you're adding to your personal loss and shaping your journey... I also want you both to speak to, maybe this at the same time, dealing with, you know, you talk about tribal, you know, the tribe. The tribalism kind of mentality around this conflict. And, curious how you also, Julie, deal with the extremes on either end, in the face of what you're trying to accomplish here. Yeah. I mean, I'll start with your last question, because truthfully, on the extremes issue, my way of dealing with that is trying to, like, block it out. Trying to not - or trying to, like, not let it absorb by osmosis in to my brain and my heart and my stomach, because that's just a path towards, like, you're not getting anywhere with that. So, I try to like create a cone of, something. You know, honestly, I mean, I think, like, personal loss on this issue to me is really just almost kind of like the loss that I feel as a member of the whole human race, like, and I think that can actually be somewhat crushing. And of course, because I'm Jewish, I do feel more of a deep connection to these issues, but I feel like, you know, I mean, things are maybe shifting a little bit for the worse in this regard, but like, to pretend like the experience that I've lived in my life as a Jewish American in terms of the amount of, unpleasantness it’s had to me, is equivalent to what, really, any Palestinian American is going to experience, just like isn't right. I feel like that's where it is worth pointing out. A point that, one of the Palestinian, stars of our film- Oh, sorry, that's, some Chihuahuas in the background. They’re invited. Salih Abed from standing together, you know, made a point in our interview, which we decided, like, kind of belonged in the film of, like, you know, there is an imbalance of suffering here, and that kind of needs to be acknowledged, and I think I would make the same point in... the context, in America, like, I don't think there are, too many Palestinian Americans who haven't experienced, even if it's not even how someone treats you personally, but you're seeing the way that the whole culture, our whole society just has a really stereotyped negative view towards your people in a way that I would say, in terms of my growing up, maybe a little different with my parents or grandparents, but in the way my growing up really wasn't an issue as a Jewish American, as I say, weirdly, things are getting a little bit, are getting a little bit more complicated in the past few years. For a whole variety of reasons. But, you know, like I'm not motivated into this issue out of personal loss. It's almost the opposite. It's really more feeling like there's some, I mean- In the summer of, 2023, before October 7th, I remember reading a story in The New York Times about, Ben-Gvir and Smotrich and, you know how horrendously bad they are and saying to my husband, like, you know what? Jewish Americans really need to speak up about this, like we should not be just letting- like this like I feel some personal connection here. Like, I don't like talking about Israel. That only, like, only leads to unpleasantness. And yet still, I feel like I need to. I should be doing something about it. I'm not sure what I've always avoided making a film, having anything to do, with this. Although I've done plenty of films that have to do with Jewishness. So, I actually didn't do anything then, but those were feelings that returned pretty strongly. As the war in Gaza reached its most intense, and, you know, the horrors of, of October 7th and part of which was knowing what was going to come next. I don't know if I can answer your question, but- No, you did and I hope, if you don't mind, I just want to say I really appreciate everything you said. And this is not about me, but I would just like to suggest one thing and to add to what you said, but maybe a little differently. Like, so I'm a Jewish Israeli person. I will just note that I do think, you know, it's scary what happened in DC. I take my kid to, Sunday school and I'm, for the first time in my life, a little worried, you know? So, I just want to acknowledge that. And also for Israelis, that almost everyone knows someone who was killed on the 7th. And my brothers were actually at the Nova Festival, they were not killed. So there's that too. Absolutely, I mean, and, actually, I've been to Israel a number of times. I have a number of friends who are either Israelis living in Israel or some Americans who moved there over the years. And I think that's maybe another distinction that needs to be made. There is a big difference Vis-a-vis Israel issues of being Jewish American versus being Israeli, American, you know, very different situation. The film is amazing and I hope everyone sees it, and we'll give people information about how to see it. But, I want to, like, use the joke of spoiler alert, but is there a moment in the film, you know, where some kind of, like, shared humanity, that you want to talk about, that sort of broke through ideology, because, you know, we're talking about, ideologies here. Yeah. I mean, honestly, everything between the timecode, 000 and, 38 minutes. Literally every part of the film broke through that. Like, it would be really hard to isolate a single moment. I think one of the things that we worked really hard on was to not turn this film into a film about the issues, a film about the destruction. like, you'll notice that, like- people don't notice until you kind of point it out to them. We don't discuss the issues like we're not talking about, oh, Israel should do this, or Palestinians should do that, or we need to do this, you know, or the right of return or what are we going to do about the settlement, like, none of those things are things that we deal with, like we fundamentally focus on the unbelievable bravery that it takes to just acknowledge the existence and the pain of the other, and we center that as the basis for moving forward. We are not offering anybody a solution to the Arab-Israeli, you know, situation. We're not saying, like, do what Julie and Mo say. You know, these people sitting in the US in total comfort, like, do what they say and everything will be fixed. We're not doing that at all. What we are saying is like, look, we don't know what the end state looks like, but we, with 100% certainty, know how you get to that end state. And that is by fearlessly looking at each other and acknowledging the fact that the trauma is not a pie. Right? Like when I take a slice, it doesn't mean there's any less trauma for you. That suffering is not a competition. Like, you know, I keep referring to this entire situation as, you know, a trauma Olympics, right? Like, you have conversations with folks on either side and it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I'll see you a Nakba and raise you a Holocaust, is what it sounds like. Which like, I want to be super clear, I am not in any way diminishing the utter horror of any of these things. But fundamentally, I think what we wanted to say to people is like, look, Maoz Inon and Aziz Abu Sarah, by any rational measure, have every right in the world to hate each other, right? Like we may not agree with them hating each other, but like, I don't see a world where I, as a Palestinian, can go to a guy whose parents were, murdered on October 7th and say like, hey, pal, you should hang out with more Palestinians, right? And I don't see a world where you can go to some of, like, Aziz Abu Sarah, and say like, hey, I'm sorry Israelis killed your, you know, beat your brother to death in prison. You should you should be kinder to Israelis, right? Like they have every reason in the world to be irrationally hateful. And yet somehow, these two people have both the courage and the moral clarity and the ethical fortitude to sit with each other, acknowledge each other's trauma for the tragedy that it is, and work together to move forward. I mean, I woke up today and they're meeting with the new Pope. I saw that too. It's their second Pope. But like, I think what we wanted to try and say to people is like, look, if they can do this, like, if these people who have every reason to reject, cooperation and dialogue can do this, then you sitting on your ass in Dearborn, Michigan, or New York City can also figure out a way to talk to your neighbor and try and progress this forward. So that's kind of where we were coming from. Totally. And with that mentality, practicing a peaceful mentality and understanding will facilitate a political solution. So even though your movie's not dealing, diving into the politics, it's showing the mindset that could lead to a political solution, which I totally love. Just turning a little bit, for our last few minutes together, just to talk a little bit about not only the film, but, you know, I mean, Mo, I saw you commenting on silence and social media, you know, and I we've all sort of struggled with silence from all the sides, as it were. Different people have different perspectives on this. But I'm curious, for you both to speak to- I can start with Julie, I guess. What has silence from your own communities felt like to you, Julie then Mo. Silence from my own community? Yeah, if- Interesting, yeah. You know, I sort of- I'm inclined not to be too judgmental about silence because as I was just mentioning, like, I was pretty silent myself until recently. I think the thing that bothers me more is like those who are silent about Palestinian suffering, but are quite un silent, when our own people are struggling. Or often are like complaining the loudest about the silence of the other, rather than like, no, why don't you model that by not being silent yourself? I mean, I have a lot of Facebook friends who have posted a lot over the past ten days, like really hectoring everyone who isn't Jewish. Why aren't you speaking out against Sarah and Yaron’s murders in Washington, DC when it's like, but- Okay, but why aren't you speaking out about- I mean, I could pick a number of specifics, but, like, you know, about children who are on the brink of starvation in Gaza right now, and that's just a fact. And actually, if you spoke about the others, you might be surprised what came back. You know, Mo and I both had the same response to Sarah and Yaron being killed, you know, to those murders in D.C. over the past week, which was to start posting on social media all of the really, un silent reactions from thoughtful Palestinians, including a number of those in our film. That's sort of the first place I looked. And again, if you look for it, you will find it. Rather than running around saying like, why won’t any Palestinians say anything? Like, no, why don't you look and see what's actually happening? Like, rather than looking and saying in your mind, oh, nobody's speaking out about this, why don't you go- Why don't you go look and see? Can I find people that are speaking out? Once you do, you can create a really long thread of incredibly moving, thoughtful reactions. Mo’s included, but also like- And my reaction to seeing that was to be doing more speaking out about specific Palestinian related, suffering. And, you know, there was that, Instagram, 11 year old, Palestinian Instagram star who was killed in an Israeli bombing this week and posting about her. You just see what's modeled, what seems like it's effective and touches your heart and then try to do the same. Yeah. I would say like, you know, we've certainly all seen that, you know, the silence comes from both sides, right? Like both Palestinian and Jewish communities that are having a hard time, especially folks who are more moderate. Right. Like, I mean, definitionally when you're a moderate, you're moderate. It's hard to get really excited about being moderate, right? People don't talk about, rabid, centrists. But I think it's disappointing on some level. You know, when people you love and people you know, don't say things and kind of, refrain from commenting, especially when you know how they feel. And it hurts because in those moments of rupture, sometimes it can feel like things are unraveling and you're looking around to see who's standing next to you. And I know that the Jewish community has certainly felt this, and I know that the Palestinian community has certainly felt this. And, you know, sometimes you find an emptiness when you thought there was a connection. I think what I try to do is I try to remind myself that there's a reason. Right? And that reason is that this isn't a space where people feel safe. It's a space that's wired with grief and fear and generational trauma and tripwires and booby traps and landmines everywhere. You know, emotional landmines, historical landmines, moral ones, and, frankly, psychological and psychic ones. Right? And for most folks really like fundamentally good, ethical, moral folks, a lot of them just don't know how to step into that minefield without blowing themselves up, you know? Or blowing up the discourse, or suddenly being canceled, or feeling like your friends don't understand you or whatever. And I think that people are deeply afraid of saying the wrong thing, of being accused of something that that they would be ashamed of. Of being cut off from their own communities, which are really important, especially in the diaspora for both Jews and Palestinians. And some folks get overwhelmed and so they go quiet. But, you know, fundamentally, that silence still hurts, right? It lands like a betrayal sometimes when you're grieving. And I know that it's not always cowardice and that sometimes it's just paralysis or exhaustion or the very, human fear of being wrong in public. So, ultimately, I try to hold space for both things, for both the ache and the understanding. And I think as part of what both Julie and I are trying to do now and what I hope more of us are trying to do is to build kind of safer spaces where the quieter voices can speak, where moderate voices, uncertain voices, even. Right? Like emotionally tangled voices can breathe, and we can create space for that. Because unless we do, then silence really is the rational option. And the problem with silence is that the people who aren't afraid to be silent are the extremes. They're loud and extreme, and they poison the conversation. So really, like, I'm working to elevate the presence of the quieter and less insane voices, if that makes sense. And hoping that we can kind of support them and give them the courage to kind of engage. Thank you for everything you just said, because I confess, I mean, I am barely on social media. I'm on very few platforms. And I've also been very reticent, for, not all the reasons you mentioned, because I hate to think that I’d be “wrong,” as it were, but like- Yeah, very afraid of just being misunderstood or, also trying to reconcile what the truth is and also just like it's so- People are so quick to attack and not discuss, right? They're so quick to debate and not discuss. I find it very challenging. But I really appreciate what you said. And I know Abe is really good at social media, so I’ll just give Abe a voice. before we take it to our last question. Abe do you want to say anything about social media, since you’re so good at it? Before we do that, I wanted to say what's great about the film and the way you tee up the whole idea of humanity, which is to me- It just strikes the chord as soon as the movie starts. And I thought that was such an effective way to tell the story that ultimately gets told. You know- My book, Won't Be Silent is about having finally kind of waking up to the fact that when the Nazis are marching in Charlottesville was like a turning point. My parents were Holocaust survivors, and I was kind of grateful that they weren’t alive then to see this movement, which is even more real now. But I have been very active on social media leading into the 2020 election because we were all in our homes and I used that platform and that message to say, what better way to say I won't be silent than by voting? So that got me very activated in this space. And now I kind of feel like since October 7th, that whole community that I was a part of that- We took credit for getting him out of the White House was silent to what I was going through, which is deeply personal, because I'm in a tiny minority, being a child of survivors and it's just. I'm- As someone who has kind of been about just not, you know, the whole political correctness has been such a problem that for me for years, so that I don't care if I'm insulting someone, I just want to go back to humanity again. I just feel like we've all lost it a lot, you know? And- So the silence is actually deafening. But it's also kind of expected because of how we just see how things moved. But- My TikTok algorithm has become extremely kind of so, quieted that I don't even care to try to engage anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Who am I trying to engage with? It’s all anger. It's like, you say, who wants to participate in that? So yeah, it's been a journey to see how the algorithm has become the enemy. Social media was always this place where we would find like minds and to be able to communicate and share values. But that's changed. So yeah, I- I think it might depend on the platform, right? And I don't want to- We'll wrap that up now. But I- it does seem like it depends on like- TikTok is a different beast for lack of a better description than Bluesky or than Facebook maybe even, and whatever. But any- Unless you guys have any last words on social media or anything else, and feel free to say those, my last question is just, you know, your movie's called Path Forward and any thing- any final thoughts about anything we’ve said today and also what the path forward looks like for you and how people should engage. How can they find the movie? Yeah. So I will make one response to what both of you just said with, especially maybe Orly when you're, feeling bad about yourself for, you know, silence is fine if it's a listening silence. Like, it's like what is the silence? So that's- if you're quiet because you're listening and taking in, that can be fine. And to me, as Mo said earlier, you know, the film doesn't provide solutions, but in my mind, it does provide a first step. Like the first step has to sort of put aside all of the, all of the political, geographical, specificities and to say, let's like, let's wipe everything clean and start with love and empathy and listening to one another, like, which is what everyone in our film is doing to a certain extent, none of them perfectly, although most of them pretty darn well. You know, that is not nothing. Like I feel like what this film- People talk a lot about micro aggressions. I think what this film is about is about micro hope. You know? And the whole microaggression thing like, that could actually, like, a little tiny meanness can, like, feel really mean when it's hitting you. And the same thing with hope, like, you got to start somewhere if there's a little bit of something, that's good. As far as finding the film where, the film is being distributed by, Grasshopper Film. So, I think the first platform that it's going to be generally on, available on is just going to the grasshopper site, which is grasshopperfilm.com. Soon it'll be available to rent on all the normal platforms where you rent video. You could also, arrange screenings by reaching out to Grasshopper or- Yeah. And we'll, also for anyone listening, we'll, make all this available on our website and maybe we'll have a hosted- because we're going to work with Eventive on the- So maybe we'll do stuff more with the film as well. Rent the film for a group and discuss after. Thank you so much for making it and Mo, for you, any final thoughts? On anything. Yeah, sure. Like, just quickly to kind of... I want to respond and acknowledge- No, no, I want to respond to acknowledge Abe's words. Because I feel them deeply. Right. Like, I feel... I feel how the world wants to kind of, flatten your pain and, kind of minimize it and say, like, you know, shhhh your pain is inconvenient, like, shut the f up. Right? Like, and I think that. Like, we live in a world where almost every algorithm that we have, controlling what we see and what we hear is, is tuned for rage. Rage is a powerful, powerful kind of activator. If you actually see what gets pushed on Facebook, it's not the stuff that gets most likes. If they actually don't track likes as strongly as they track, like, I hate this or I love this, right? Like it's the stuff on the extremes and that's what they push out to people. So you end up seeing stuff that's designed to get you pissed off, or Or Peaced Off! Sorry. There you go. Exactly. I wish you saw more stuff that got you Peaced Off. Well, that's what we're doing. But I think, you know, I think, like Abe, I speak out, and refuse to be silent while still kind of, frankly, being afraid of being misunderstood. Right. Like, you see how quickly people pounce, how little grace there is for grief that doesn't neatly fit into some preconceived notion of no, no, this is inappropriate grief that you're feeling like you should feel this way. And where every word that you say feels like it could blow up. And fundamentally,

you know, to ask, to answer: 40:58

How do we go back to humanity? What does the path forward to me look like? I don't think, you know, I don't think we go back. I think we begin, you know, we begin moving towards humanity. And that's about naming the pain. That's about, naming our fear of being erased both as Palestinians and Jews. Me naming mine and you as Jews naming yours. And both of us refusing to make our trauma the yardstick by which we measure all, you know, all other, pain. Right? That's the first step to me. Like sitting with each other's grief and not debating it. I think that's what we tried to show in the film is like, hey, man, it is perfectly okay for you to acknowledge the Holocaust. Totally fine. Like as a Palestinian, you can say like, this is an awful thing. This is barbarity, this is inhumanity does not, on any level, minimize the shit that has happened to me as a Palestinian and vice versa. Right. Like, and I've, I have many Israeli friends who will sit there and say, you know, tell you like, hey, I am deeply uncomfortable with the Nakba, and all the things that have happened since, you know, ‘48 and ’67 and certainly with what's happening with Gaza. And they don't say that in a way that is competitive, like we're in a trauma Olympics. Like I said, you know, not- they don't debate it, they don't dissect it. We just hold it and we let it exist. And, and I think, you know, it's not flashy. It doesn't trend. You know, it's like, oh, my God, look, it's a bunch of people not arguing is not exactly compelling media, but it's real. And if we want a way forward, if there is any path out of this mess, I think it starts with that kind of radical, uncomfortable, human presence and an acknowledgment of that presence. And so it's not a return to anything for me. If anything, it's a path towards something better and, hopefully, more humane. You know, I want every one of the 15 million people between the river and the sea to be, like I said, to have a boring ass life. Right. In the best sense of the word boring. Right. That is filled with the only, you know, mundane kind of concerns. Here's to a path forward to a boring ass life in the region. Yeah, the movie is really great. I want to make sure you heard me say that. Yeah, it's bold, it's beautiful. And, you know, radically peaceful. And we're so honored to have you as our guests. And thank you for everything you've done and you're doing. And I hope to see you again. And we can even have an event with the film. And with that, we're Peacing Off! Thank you so much. Take care. That’s amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you both. Bye bye. This has been Episode 1 of Peaced Off!, a curated film and conversation series presented by The Film Collaborative, with guests Julie Cohen and Mo Husseini of The Path Forward. Peaced Off! is created and executive produced by Orly Ravid. It is produced by Abe Gurko. Both Orly Ravid and Abe Gurko serve as moderators for this episode. Our head of audio and video production is David Averbach, who also serves as series art director. You can find more about this podcast at GetPeacedOff.com.