"Whispered in Gaza" (Part Two)

Orly and Abe welcome back the team from The Center for Peace Communications, who return for a second episode, this time alongside the co-Founder of the We Want to Live movement, Moumen al-Natour, who joins us from Gaza City, to discuss the status of humanitarian aid and the desire to move forward in peace. 

Transcript

0:09

It’s wonderful to see you again. Joseph Braude and Ahed Alhendi from the Center for Peace Communications. And I am just overwhelmed that you were able to bring Moumen al-Natour, and I want to thank him for being here. He’s in Gaza right now, and that’s where we’re going to get started and talk to him, and Joseph and Ahed, Joseph, we would love for you to facilitate the conversation, and Ahed thank you in advance for translating and thank you, let’s get started. I just wanted to say welcome aboard as well. It’s an honor to have you here. All right. Well, thank you Orly. Thanks for this invitation. And, one of the bravest people in the anti-Hamas protest movement now going back, six years is Moumen al-Natour, who co-organized in 2019 unprecedented anti-Hamas street demonstrations under the banner We Want to Live, which was in and of itself a repudiation of the so-called culture of death that Hamas champions. And since that time, Moumen has been active, publicly in Gaza, at great cost to himself——he’s been in and out of Hamas prisons more than 20 times, has harrowing stories of those experiences, he organized to bring aid to people who needed it, independent of Hamas’ theft of humanitarian aid many long months before it became an international issue in the present war. And he’s continuously finding new ways to engage the world and advance a civil agenda in the Gaza Strip. So it’s my pleasure to welcome Moumen into this conversation, And to invite you, Moumen, to just, share a little bit about your worldview. Tell us, how you feel about the situation in Gaza now, 19 months after the October 7th tragedy, and the onset of this destructive war. First of all, I’m happy to be with you all. The war since the beginning of October 7th, as I’ve said before in Western media, is a crime. What happened on October 7th… it was a crime, and the people of Gaza do not support the ideology of those who committed it. Everyone in Gaza, unfortunately, is suffering……from what Hamas has done. The October 7th operation was not an act of struggle, as some claim. It was a criminal operation that targeted civilians in general, and women, children, and elderly people. I wouldn’t be able to find a single person who accepted Hamas’ claim that a kidnapped child is a prisoner of war, as we saw with the Bibas family. The Gazan people are living in a kind of hell in the Gaza Strip. We lost our homes, and, as you can see from my background, I have a tarpaulin behind me that is made of nylon. It used to be a concrete wall before with some decorations and a nice place to live, but it was destroyed because of the fighting between both sides. We picked up some items belonging to the Israeli army or Hamas fighters that were left. Everyone in Gaza is suffering from having a mix of civilians and Hamas members in the same area. Everyone is tired, and they want a safe place to live a decent life, free of Hamas, and free of Israeli bombings so that we can live in peace. Two days ago, there was an attack on the main street, about 50 meters from my house. The Israelis targeted a number of Hamas fighters. Unfortunately, my brother was walking just 15 meters away from them. If I lost my brother, what would be the point? We talk about peace, we support peace with Israel, and at the same time, we are a family known for being anti-Hamas. People are now turning to special centers that are providing humanitarian aid, but the current mechanism of distribution needs to be more organized so that people can go there freely. How is it that you’ve managed to……do what you’re doing, to say what you’re saying now, and to do anything against Hamas… How is it you can manage it and be safe? Hamas has now lost more than 60% of its capabilities, but I still take precautions and keep a low profile. I don’t leave the house very much. I go out but return straight home. I don’t show myself to others when I’m outside. And when I’m inside, I try and give people the impression that I’m not at home…that I’m not in the city, but in some other place in the Gaza Strip. I’m just curious…about 2 million people are in the strip. How many, do you think,*think* like you, even if they can’t do what you’re doing as opposed to people who support Hamas? Well, before October 7th, Hamas enjoyed support in Gaza. Because we are in the midst of an occupation, you will certainly find people believing in the idea of resistance in general. But after the October 7th operation, a lot of people have changed their minds. Personally, I had these thoughts even before October 7th, so I didn’t have to change my mind… I have been thinking about this for a long time. I believe that now 80% or more than 80% of the population of Gaza wants peace with Israel and an end to the conflict once and for all. Recently, news emerged that the eastern part of Rafah is controlled by a man named Yasser Abu Shabab, who is managing a small safe zone area. There is no disagreement over the idea of establishing a safe zone. These areas must be managed by young people, by people who are respected, politically, and not rely on tribes and families because this would be harmful to the civilian population and it would be harmful to Israel. I’m going to, actually ask a question, that I think many people on among your audience, Orly, might be curious about, Moumen, in the United States, on college campuses and, in many different elite circles, there’s this protest movement against Israel that identifies itself as pro-Palestinian. But which, nonetheless, seems to conflate Hamas with the general public in Gaza. In calling for an immediate end to the war that would effectively leave Hamas in power. What is your reaction? I know that you’ve followed, the campus movement in the United States. You’ve read about it online. You hear about, the protest movement. What do you make of it? And what do you have to say…to those people? I addressed this issue in my article in the Washington Post, where I said that the demonstrators clearly are supporting Hamas and they send people like Abu Obaida to lead demonstrations to support Hamas and to collect donations for Hamas. This is wrong and does not help us, the civilians. The civilians in Gaza have many demands, including the establishment of a safe zone inside Gaza. Some civilians even want to leave the Gaza Strip. This is the right of every human being on earth to leave— to travel, or emigrate, and to choose a place where they feel safe. No one has been affected by [the campus protesters calling for a cease fire]. It only keeps Hamas and their Authority in power. Hamas is benefitting from this movement. Yes, the Palestinian civilians have clear demands. But Hamas has clear demands as well… they want to keep us in a state of permanent conflict. If there is something that you really want to make sure anyone outside of Gaza understands and does, what would you what would you want? I guess the understanding you covered. What should people do? Or, would you like people to do outside of Gaza? In 2024, we met remotely with many policymakers in the U.S., in Europe, and in Canada and we talked about many things. The most important issue that we raised is the safe zone that must differentiate between those who are Hamas fighters, and those who are civilians. It’s the most important request. If Israel seriously wants to end the war and defeat Hamas, Israel can’t leave civilians mixed in with Hamas. The best step would be to establish a safe zone where only civilians, not armed men, would be allowed in. It would be called a Green Zone, which could receive all kinds of support and assistance, including food, shelter, drink, medication, etc. And whoever wants to leave can leave. Orly, anything you’d like to ask that may not occur to us, given your knowledge of your own audience? Well, I mean, I thank you. I think the question you ask was really perfect for the audience. And I guess, really, it’s just, my last question is, is there anything that hasn’t been said that he wants, especially people in Israel and in the U.S., to know that hasn’t already been covered and what they can do? Is there a thing that they can do now that would help his cause against Hamas? The most important thing is that we are not Hamas. There are many people like me on the ground, and they are talking against Hamas. But we see videos every day of Hamas torturing people, so people are afraid to speak out publicly. The reason is because the media that Hamas controls is very strong. It’s supported by Qatar. Look at the Arabic network Al Jazeera. In our dialect, we say, these media,“they do not know God.” This means that we think they do a lot of horrible stuff. For example, if they were to show 1,000 people gathering, they would film them from different corners and from different angles in such a way that makes it appear that all Gazans are Hamas, for example. These media make videos, they send them to Al Jazeera, and then, as you know, the whole Arab world watches Al Jazeera, as well. They exaggerate Hamas’ capabilities and still insist that Hamas is capable of running the Gaza Strip, even after 17 months of war.

I will give you an example: 13:54

On October 7th, I was sleeping, like many Gazans. It was 6 a.m.in the morning. And then, we woke up to this news,

and immediately wanted to know: 14:04

who went, who participated? How did they know? And most importantly, we wanted to know the identity of the attackers on October 7th. To be frank, why is Hamas being run out of Doha in Qatar? Why is the Qatari media showing Hamas’ strength? Al Jazeera doesn’t really broadcast anything about Gaza and Hamas, but Qatari media does. Al Arabiya TV always talks about Azmi Bishara, who was former Knesset member, and who ran away and now lives in Qatar. He’s always giving tips to Hamas, telling them how they should act. Recently, people living in Gaza heard that due to the defeat Hamas was going to accept a deal proposed by the Israelis, but the Qataris ordered them not to accept it. Qatar was the one who thwarted the deal. Another factor is that the U.S. is renegotiating the nuclear agreement with Iran. Because Hamas considers Israel to be the spiritual father figure for the U.S. in the Middle East, it wants to keep Israel busy, using Iran as a distraction, a kind of bargaining chip, in the negotiation……in order to obstruct the U.S. from negotiating the nuclear agreement with Iran. I believe this is all being done to maintain a“state of war, fresh blood, and sacrifices,” as they say in their media. My two part question to follow up is what is motivating Qatar to keep supporting Hamas, and obviously, Al Jazeera being a Qatari media outlet. And, there’s a lot of criticism against Israel for not letting in Western media to cover the conflict, the war in Gaza. But we also hear that it’s Hamas who’s very controlling. So, I’m just curious to hear, what Moumen thinks is really the cause for the lack of regular media, neutral media in Gaza. Qatar supports the Muslim Brotherhood, generally speaking, and Hamas is a sanctuary within the global Muslim Brotherhood. We all know that Qatar supports radical groups. There is even talk that it supported some fronts in Syria, such as the Al-Nusra front and others. Even Abu Mohammed al-Jolani, whose real name is Ahmed Hussein al-Sharaa, was receiving Qatari and Turkish support. Qatar supports radical groups because it wants to build an empire. And because they also believe in oppression, can anyone know what is going on internally in the Qatari government? What do we really know about Qatar? Are there elections? Does Qatar have a democratic government or parliament? What do we know about the other dynasties in Qatar that they have vanished? Qatar also shares some oil fields with the Iranians, and sometimes they get blackmailed by the Iranians. Qatar needs to compromise and kowtow to Iran. Qatar needs to create radical groups in order to draw attention away from the internal situation in Qatar. In May 2019, I was contacted by a journalist from The Independent and she explained to me that once they cross into Gaza, they have to be accompanied by a translator. And they cannot simply choose their own translator. These translators, these fixers, are appointed……they are not just anyone who can work for any international press. If Israel didn’t object to allowing international media into the Gaza Strip to cover the Strip, you would see the destruction of every landmark in the Strip due to the fighting between Israel and Hamas, and you would also find out the true opinion of Gaza’s residents. You would interview people and ask questions, and you would be truly surprised to learn how many people despise Hamas. It first of all, I don’t know how much more time he has, but is there anything that you haven’t yet said……that you want to say before we end? But I do have one last question as well. My question is, there’s a lot of criticism about how many dead journalists, I mean, obviously criticism over how much destruction and dead generally, but also killing of journalists. I’m curious if Moumen thinks most of those people are journalists, or not. What is his opinion about the killing of Gazan journalists? OK. There are some journalists who have unfortunately died because of the war. Some of them I know personally. They are victims, but at the same time, there are many people who wear press jackets and are hiding under these vests. Let me just add or suggest to Moumen that he expand a bit on this type of journalist, who are the journalists in parentheses, but the likes of Anas Al Sharif and others, that they actually play active roles and even play a role in inciting against the free media in Gaza. Can you see this as a phenomenon of some kind? There is a problem here with the media, with Al Jazeera, in that they don’t hire objective, neutral people who report without any biases……the kind of neutral journalists who adhere to the tenets of journalism as a profession and the principle of neutrality in reporting news. All of these reporters already have pre-assumptions. They are ideologically motivated and present a single narrative. The only narrative they want to show is their own one. I’d like to ask before we go, I’d like to say two things. One is that I see that We Want to Live is a movement that you’re a co-founder of. Is there a way we can help make, you know, our audience, know more about it? Is that something we can help with? And the other thing that I take away is this idea of the safe zone that I think would also be interesting to know that there is this internal push to want those to happen. I mean, those are just two things I would love your opinion on. We started a few weeks before March 14, 2019, the day when two rockets were launched from the Gaza Strip towards Tel Aviv. We began talking about how to launch this movement under the slogan“We Want to Live” to signify our desire to make our life and living conditions better in Gaza. We could not envision the idea of overthrowing Hamas back then, because at that time you would be talking about a heavily armed militia. It wasn’t until much later that we were able to introduce the idea of toppling Hamas. We had a set of several demands. First, we asked Hamas to reduce taxes for store owners in Gaza because they used to levy very high taxes. We also demanded more transparency when it comes to government work. We also asked Hamas to allow the community to create more work. Because in Gaza, whenever you want to have a job, you need to have a recommendation letter from the imam of a mosque. We asked Hamas to abolish this practice. But Hamas confronted the movement with great force. On March 14th, they beat and dragged many of the protesters. Back then, I was hiding in the Jabalia area. They ran over demonstrators in that area with their own cars, and arrested a number of young men, broke their phones so they wouldn’t be able to take pictures, and they prevented any journalists from covering this. This is why you don’t find much news about what happened on that date, March 14th. Even the national Palestinian media were afraid of threats from Hamas and didn’t cover the movement. After I organized this movement, Hamas raided my house four to five times. I wasn’t home, but they confiscated the phones of all my family members. And on March 20th, they arrested my brother Bader, who had nothing to do with the movement, in order to force me to surrender. So, I did. I was subjected to several preliminary investigations with the director of the Internal Security Directorate. I will not mention names. After that, they took me to the interrogation building. The first several hours were the most difficult. I was subjected to the most horrific abuse since then, The first investigator who interrogated me went under the pseudonym Abu Uday. I was subjected to the most horrific abuse since then, The Arab world uses the name Abu Uday to refer to Saddam Hussein. Abu Uday interrogated me in the most horrific way. and to all kinds of mistreatment and torture. The investigations revolved around several accusations, and to all kinds of mistreatment and torture. including collusion with Ramallah, the Palestinian Authority, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, the Emirates, funding—where would I even get funding from? We didn’t even have a penny. It was a spontaneous movement. I’m curious, how is it that they let him— I don’t mean to be morbid about it— but why did they let him live? I’m a human rights activist, I’m a lawyer. What happened was, a lot of international organizations and human rights organizations intervened, and spoke up about what they were doing to me, there were a lot of social media campaigns about it. Hamas then had to respond to all of that. So, this is why they released me back then. Hamas, however, did not take my word for it immediately and didn’t respond quickly to these institutions. They jailed me longer. There was torture……and they told me,“All of this will not help you.” But they eventually released me because of the massive pressure campaigns against them. They thought when they brought me in, they would find something, like me being an agent for the Israelis or the Egyptians. They searched my phone, searched my contacts, incoming and outgoing calls, and only released me when they were certain that I wasn’t in contact with any government institution and that we were all acting on our own, and not at the urging of anyone else. I was more forthright during the investigations and asked for work at the time. I told them I needed a job, needed my financial situation to be better. I have a degree, I have qualifications. Why couldn’t I get a job? They said, “We have to make sure you don’t have any external connections with Israel or the Palestinian National Authority.” Even though one of the investigators claimed his name was Abu Obeida, who by the way was recently killed in an air strike. Anyway, he demanded that I acknowledge this piece of paper he wrote me stating that I was an activist who was working with Israeli authorities. Otherwise, he would bring my father in and beat him in front of me(my father, may God have mercy on him, had already died) if I didn’t say I was an agent for the Israelis. I just want to say that, I just looked it up, but We Want to Live is something that I would believe is something we would like to help make people even aware about. I think that’s a critical coin for you going forward. Yeah, that’s what I was going to say in our final moments together, to just let people know what they can do to support the movement and what he would like people on college campuses and anywhere else to actually do now. For the campuses, we want to tell them that they need to support us as Palestinians. We, Palestinians, want people to support us. But we demand that they differentiate. Our demands are different from those of Hamas. We are ready to meet with these protesters and talk to the students at the universities. The people of Gaza, exhausted by this war, want peace. Everyone is calling for peace during the demonstrations, and even if you walk down the street for ten minutes, you’ll hear people saying that it’s time for peace. The idea of peace is totally antithetical to the idea of Hamas. Hamas wants conflicts and wars, and we want peace. If there is peace, there is no reason for Hamas to stay. So, our primary demand as Gazans is to get Hamas out of Gaza Strip, something we have wanted even before the Israelis did.

This is how you can support our movement: 31:22

we have put forward a proposal to establish a safe zone free of Hamas, not bombarded by Israel, that would receive all supplies and aid, and that would be open to the world. And maybe the We Want to Live movement can play a central role in organizing and administering this zone. During the war, with the organization“We Want to Live,” I co-founded charity work called“Palestinian Youth for Development.” We engaged in distributing aid. As an organization, we are ready and capable of administrating this area. We can play an important role in organizing aid in the safe zone.

We even have many skilled people with us: 32:18

teachers, doctors, and engineers. We are totally capable of administrating this region and being a government or administrative body that is ready for peace. You could consider us like a shadow government. We hope that you, in America, and also in Israel, and in the entire West, will support this initiative. It is a good initiative that benefits civilians and keeps civilians away from conflicts. This is very consistent with international law. Support our proposal. We have always called for safe zone from day one of the war. We’ve been asking for this for the past two years. I hope my message regarding the safe zone has been received. It is very important, and I will reiterate it now. As a civilian who believes in peace, I am suffering today because of this harshness. I am suffering because of the Israeli measures. I am suffering because of the food crisis. I am suffering because of the medicine crisis. I am suffering because there is a crisis of livelihood as a whole. We need to fix our lives. The life you living in America, this is like a dream for us. Just to live a normal life, like you are doing. We need to establish the safe zones. And those Gazans who want to leave Gaza, they should be allowed to leave Gaza. Today is the first day of Eid al-Adha. It’s a festival, and we call it the meat festival…usually. But right now, nobody is eating meat, Because if you want to buy 1 kilogram or 2 pounds of meat, it will cost more than 1,000 shekels, which is about $300 dollars. 90% of the people cannot buy this. We can end all of this by establishing a safe zone. It would be good for everyone, for us as civilians, and for Israel. Having a split between civilians and Hamas is very important, and it must happen quickly. I want to conclude here, as you all live in America in a healthy environment, That we, too, want to be living in a healthy way. I hope that everyone in the West gets the message I’m saying right here. There is no education right now in Gaza. There is no food. There is no medication. There is nothing in Gaza. We want to address all of it, and we’ve taken this issue upon ourselves. I hope that our demands will be supported soon. We are truly dedicated as activists to move toward these goals, and I hope that my message is clear, and reaches all of you. Well, we are so grateful for all the time that you’ve put into your efforts all these years and that you showed here today. We will definitely get your message out. And we really wish you…we thank you… we really wish you safety and peace and for you to get everything that you’re pushing for. People like you are really an inspiration, and we hope that you can soon enough thrive in Gaza. And we would love to continue conversations, whether it’s on Zoom or offline, because, again, it was an eye opening conversation for me, and I’m glad to be part of this conversation with you, and I wish you the best. I’m very happy to meet you. Is it “shkraan jzylaan” (شكراًجزيل ) ? How do you say, “thank you very much” ? Yeah, you’re correct, you’re right. I hope to improve my Arabic. I have one quick fact checking question and then I will say good night. I’m assuming that when Abu Zeta Abu Abu [Abu Uday]—I forgot his name— The Hamas person who made you sign the paper saying that you’re an agent of Israel? I’m assuming you wanted that to show no one is really by themselves against Hamas. Is that accurate? Yes, yes, you’re exactly right. What I told him at the time, was that I made my own decision. How would Israel find me and put these things in my head? You’re supposed to be my government, and I am addressing you as my government. You should meet my demands and listen to me. I don’t need Israel to put me up to demanding something from my own government. It is customary with Hamas, to have someone—me, for example— sign an illegal pledge, stating that if I did not remain silent and returned to speaking about public affairs, I would have to pay a fine of₪250,000 shekels. This is illegal, but they made me sign it. As a lawyer, I protested this and told him that this was not legal, that his executive body in the government were not the ones who impose fines,—that the prosecution or the judiciary do that— and that it was not permissible for him to fine me. He looked at me and slapped me in the face. but it’s an honor to meet another lawyer. I hope if it’s safe enough we meet in person one day. I hope. Eveybody, thank you, for your interest I’m really glad, and also appreciate that you woke up very early in California to do this. And, of course, thank you, and a blessed Eid, may you be well every year, May you be well, as well. In God, we meet you in a state of peace and security.- Amen, amen -- O Lord, we hope for peace today- For us and for you… God be with you. Thank you in peace Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Be in touch. Thank you very much. This has been Episode 4 of Peaced Off!, a curated film and conversation series presented by The Film Collaborative. with guests Joseph Braude and Ahed Alhendi of The Center for Peace Communications, and Moumen al-Natour, co-founder of the We Want To Live movement, who has been joining us live from Gaza City. We would also like to thank Firas Haddad, for providing voice-over narration for the audio version of this episode. Peaced Off! is curated and executive produced by Orly Ravid. It is produced by Abe Gurko. Both Orly Ravid and Abe Gurko serve as moderators for this episode. Our head of Audio and Video production is David Averbach, who also serves as series Art Director. You can find more about this podcast at getpeacedoff.com.