Reel Talk: "Holding Liat"

Orly and Abe talk to Brandon & Lance Kramer and Libby Lenkinski of the feature documentary Holding Liat, which premiered in at the Berlin International Film Festival earlier this year, where it won the Berlinale Documentary Award for Best Documentary. It recently had its North American premiere at the Tribeca Festival and is currently on the film festival circuit.

Transcript

0:12

I am so truly thrilled to be able to speak to you three today. From the film “Holding Liat”, Brandon Kramer, who’s the director of the feature documentary “Holding Liat,” Lance Kramer, who’s a Washington, DC-based independent filmmaker and producer of “Holding Liat,” and Libby Lenkinski, who’s a consulting producer and impact producer for the film. She’s the founder and president of Albi, which supports culture as a vehicle for change in and about Israel-Palestine. I love the film so much and it’s just a true honor. And, full disclosure, The Flm Collaborative has been doing Festival Distribution for the film. And, we just want to be transparent about that. I just want to congratulate you on an awesome film. I know you, you premiered in Berlinale. And then you’ve recently shown at Tribeca. And so, you know, I just, I want to congratulate you, and I actually, before we dive deep into the film, Libby, would you……could you just tee us off with just explaining a little bit about Albi? Because I know when I first met you and I learned about it through Lance, actually I met you through Lance, I was just overcome with how amazing it is. So, could you tell us? Well, then I owe Lance a big thank you. I never remember how I know you, because it could have been in so many different ways, Orly, and it’s a pleasure to be here and to also be part of The Film Collaborative family. I founded Albi after many years working in the nonprofit sector, the human rights sector in Israel, understanding that like all of the big narrative change experts say, politics is something that some people do some of the time, and culture is something that we breathe……åll of us breathe…all the time. And so, in thinking about what levers we can pull to affect real change towards democracy and equality between the river and the sea, culture feels to me like an urgent one. To pull very deliberately in a lot of different ways. And so I founded Albi to be a home for that work, a lot of which is already happening, and to initiate more of it. And so it’s been a real honor and a pleasure to be part of this incredible project, with sensitive and committed filmmakers, an incredible team led by the fabulous Kramer brothers, centering a family who tells a different kind of story about what the events of October 7th mean to them and meant to them. And that’s a perfect segue because I, you know, the film looks at the politics within Liat’s family, and I know you’re relatives, so, I want to hear from each of you, I guess, starting with Brandon, just to talk about how the film captures those tensions within the family and the personal family dynamics and also just, how you see it as echoing the larger political situation, but, starting with you, Brandon, then Lance. Yeah. I mean, look, this is not a film that Lance and I planned to make or hoped to make, the Beinin Atzili family are relatives of ours. And, you know, within a few days of October 7th, we found out that Liat and Aviv were missing. And in conversations with Liat’s parents, Yehuda and Chaya, we realized that the experience that they were going through was way more complicated than what we were hearing on social media, in the media itself. And that within this one family, they… every member of the family within three different generations……were processing the grief and the trauma of going through this impossible nightmare in a very different way. And Lance and I are filmmakers that are really drawn to stories that explore complex social and political dynamics in the world with the belief that documenting these stories from a really personal and intimate lens and frame can help the public really make sense of very important and pressing issues. So here our relatives were thrust into the epicenter of a geopolitical crisis that the entire world was focusing on and trying to make sense of, and we felt a responsibility to pick up our camera and try to empathize and understand what each person in the family’s experience was like, and for every single one of them, that was different. So, for Liat’s son, Neta……he just days before had barely survived the attack on October 7th and was very angry and upset and, Liat’s father, Yehuda, within days of October 7th, was calling for peace and reconciliation, which was very controversial within his own family. Liat’s sister didn’t want this to be political at all, and just thought they should focus on getting them, Liat and Aviv, home. And so in front of our camera were three generations of family navigating their different politics, their different beliefs on how to get their loved ones home within the backdrop of a familial crisis and a crisis the whole world was looking to. And then for you, Lance, I mean is there……what’s on your mind that relates to the dynamics within the family, and then the larger dynamics writ large? What I would add to what Brandon was saying, was really, just, is that in a tragic moment like this where the family, like Liat’s, finds themself, caught in the epicenter, as Brandon said, having to deal with the daily trauma, and uncertainty, let alone the kind of longer term existential fears about the future of the place they, and so many other people, Israelis and Palestinians, call home. To tell a story like that with openness and empathy for each person’s point of view and lived experience, to lean into nuance and complexity and not run away from it, these kinds of qualities, to ask more questions rather than pose a bunch of answers. These are things that, make it very hard not just to make the film, but also to find a path for even a film, if you’re able to make it, to live in the world. And unfortunately, in my view, all of these kinds of considerations wind up living on the third rail to a lot of people, which makes it a no go zone. Unfortunately, as a consequence of that, then it becomes very difficult to find places where you can tell these stories or talk about these issues with any degree of nuance and complexity and sensitivity. And our feeling is that then, the absence of having spaces like that ultimately wind up affecting many of the people who were directly impacted. And living these daily realities. So it became a really pressing and urgent quest for us to find a way to tell the story without backing down from those qualities that were so important to us and to just continue to……thank goodness we were able to see the film through. And we’re really honored, moved by the way it’s been received thus far. And we’ve just been really motivated to continue to bring it into the world so people have the opportunity to connect with this story and learn from it and, spark the kind of dialogue and connection we know it can offer. I’m really glad you said that, because, you know, I mean, at The Film Collaborative, even my politics and Jeffrey [Winter]’s are not the same. And yet we both love your film, and I love that. Right? And, like, we talked about how well structured it is and how it really does give space and it holds the space, although in another discussion, people were criticizing that phrase. But anyway, you know, you get the gist, right? It’s like, that’s what’s so great about your film. And I think that you really stuck to that mindset and to your ambitions, and I think you’ve succeeded in the work that you’ve made. But, I mean, you’ve been showing it now publicly to some extent. I know I want to talk more about your future plans, but up till now, are there any reactions? And, you know, I want to go around the room. So I’ll start with Libby. Any reactions that, because you’re doing the impact work, that you’ve had that you want to talk about, whether positive, or something else, whatever. I mean, I want to go back to what you said about you and Jeffrey and the fact that you both find what to connect to in the film. I think that is in large part representative of the kinds of reactions that we’ve had all around the world, including in Israel. And I think my friend, Arij Mikati, who runs the Pillars Fund, talks about this sort of like cousin of authenticity. She calls it undeniability. Stories, which are undeniable. And so I think that you can agree or disagree with any of the family’s takeaways from their experience, but both their ability to express their feelings and the craftspersonship of the film itself make their stories and their perspective undeniable. It is their perspective. They actually lived through this, and this is how each of them feels, undeniably. And so I think the the reactions to the film……so there’s the content of the film and there’s the fact of the film. In large part, I think we’ve had overwhelmingly positive reactions to the content of the film from people who watched it. And then there’s this like economy of things, which I reject, and I think you reject as well, which is like telling one story is inevitably at the expense of telling a different story. And I think Lance and Brandon and the team have been very clear that from our team’s perspective, all the stories should be told, including this one. And for the people who get past that false economy and watch it, for the most part, I think they agree, in part because the family story is undeniable. And the last thing I’ll say about that is that Orna Guralnik, the famous couples therapist with her show on Showtime, moderated one of the discussions in Tribeca. And she said that psychoanalysts talk about creating a frame in the consulting room within which the person has the space to have all their feelings, and that she felt that the frame of the film allowed the family to have all of their feelings and expressed them all. And I think that’s the power of it. Absolutely. And you’re right, I do. I mean, that’s what this whole Peaced Off! series is all about. And so what about for you, Lance and Brandon? I mean, you know, where have you guys shown? Give us a little bit of a summary of where the film has been. Which countries, which audiences? Lance, I don’t know. You want to go? Sure. So the film, you know, as you mentioned, it had its world premiere at the Berlinale in February of this year. And it won. It won the documentary award from the jury. It also won the Ecumenical Jury Award, which is an interfaith jury award, which we thought was also important and notable just given the story that it is. And then from there, it went to several other international film festivals that unfortunately, we weren’t able to go to, including the Hong Kong International Film Festival and the film festival called It’s All True in Brazil. And actually, the festival in Zagreb, Croatia, Zagreb Docs. Then from there, the next festival that we were at was in Poland, a festival called Millennium Docs Against Gravity, which was the first, I guess you could call that, that’s the first festival outside of Berlin that we were able to attend. It went to Israel for Doc Aviv, which was the Israeli premiere. Its opening night in Israel was to a audience of about 1400 people, sold out at the Tel Aviv Opera House. And then we just wrapped up the North American premiere, which was at both Tribeca first and then right afterwards at DC/DOX in our hometown, DC. I’m probably forgetting something, but… That’s ok. You know, we’ll link to all your festival laurels. But, I mean, you know, so just Berlin, Israel, and New York, those are three really big screenings. I mean, is there just something that you want to share about reactions, whatever, on the spectrum from Israelis, Palestinians, Jews, Muslims, whoever, that you want to comment on, if at all? Brandon, what about you? No. I mean, the reactions to the film have been pretty profound. The very first reaction we had at our World Premiere in Berlin was from a Lebanese man who raised his hand in front of 500 people and asked if he could come on stage and give the Beinin Atzili family members a hug in front of everyone because he was just so deeply touched by their humanity and their empathy. And he said that this family shows him that there’s light in the darkness. So our very first launch into the world with this story, was a moment of genuine human connection across these lines of difference. And, our experience showing the film in Israel, we were, you know, very nervous. Every screening we’ve had of this film, we’ve been, you know, there’s nerves. It’s a very complex story about a topic that a lot of people are experiencing enormous pain around, have a lot of strong feelings around, rightfully so. And we felt that way about bringing the film to Israel. And, you know, the film had a huge standing ovation. The audience applauded the film multiple times in Israel. Lance and I just shared the film a few days ago with Palestinian activists who we know who loved the film and shared with us how the film, you know, in his experience watching an Israeli family navigate their different views and experiences, he was actually sort of seeing his own family, his Palestinian family, through his experience watching them. And so, these are just a handful of the reactions, but it’s been overwhelmingly positive. And I think the film, even though it takes the perspective of an Israeli-American family, it’s really, you know, it’s a story, it’s a very humanistic film about a family, caught in the middle of this, of this horrific crisis and just understanding how, how to navigate that space within each other. And I think, we’re living in a moment where there’s, where acts of violence are being are being committed in response to our understanding of what people’s lived experiences are with this conflict. And so giving audiences, no matter what their background, ethnicity, race, nationality is, a deeper understanding of this one family’s experience, I think, hopefully helps contribute to a much more humane, empathetic, and nuanced understanding of what, you know, what people are actually experiencing. And our belief is that that kind of understanding actually will, you know, decrease the level of violence and divisiveness around this conflict and around this issue. Can I just jump in and say, just like on a very less important and lighter note that the experience in the rooms between Berlin, Tel Aviv, and New York, even though we now know that, like, in general, the responses were positive, in Berlin because the audience was German, it was silent, like you could hear a pin drop in that room, and then afterwards, like when the film ended and the credits rolled and people were going on stage, Lance and Brandon and the family, then there were applause. But like the whole time I was like, looking around like,“Is everyone still breathing?” Meanwhile, in Tel Aviv, it was like they were talking directly back to the film the whole time, like people were laughing out loud, crying audibly, clapping. Like every time Yehuda says something about Bibi Netanyahu, the whole audience is like, “Yeah, yeah!” And in New York, like somewhere in between. But also like they get different jokes than the Israelis get from the……like, I don’t think I understood that there was anything comedic about the film until we were in the room in Tel Aviv, and I had seen it 100 times before then. But to be in that room with all those Israelis getting Yehuda’s jokes and humor like that was a whole different experience of the film, even for me. So Germans and Israelis and Americans watch films really differently from one another. That’s really funny. I want to make an observation, and then I have another follow up question. I think, you know, people are so trepidatious about saying all kinds of things with regard to this conflict and how people arrive at it. But one thing I think you’re… what I’m teasing out, and what I also read is I think there’s also just a level at which it’s humanizing to see the film and to have Palestinians, you know, see Israelis, Jews, and vice versa, right? And so, like what the conversations that we’re having in this Peaced Off! series are consistently showing the power of just having people see the “other” in a human light, like as human beings that they can relate to and are not this sort of amorphous enemy blob that they might have considered, or they might have depicted or seen depicted. And that is just so powerful. And so, that’s, you know, one of the things we want from this series and what I love about your film, that it’s accomplishing, and others have done other works that are really important. If I could just jump in as someone who saw the film and was very moved, it’s almost the perfect storm of all three different perspectives. So you’re rooting for everyone. Because they’re going through something so extraordinary and you can’t put yourself in their frame of mind, whatever their politics were before, are going to be, doesn’t matter. It’s like that was the most powerful aspect of it. The father was so sympathetic because he was so, so determined, yet is… don’t know… I just really appreciated every aspect of this film. A great film. We’re going to make sure people know how to see it. Now is, I mean, in terms of the family’s response, are the families… I know… Liat has had some life changes since……I mean, is there anything that you want to share this sort of like a post-film share that you want to do before we talk about your your ambitions for the film and your distribution? I’ll just say watching the film with Liat was one of the most truly extraordinary experiences I’ve ever had as a filmmaker. You know, she……a good chunk of the story takes place during the 54 days that she was held in captivity. So, you know, Lance and I are with her watching……watching her watch what her family did for the 54 days while she was not there. And so it was literally 90 minutes of nonstop crying and laughter, like, with no gaps in between. Just……like the most emotional experience for her and then for all of us as a result. I’ll also just say, you know, sharing it……Lance and I were just in Israel and we had the opportunity to share it with Liat’s oldest son, which was a really important experience because he, up until that point had not been ready to watch the film. And so, you know, this is very much, a very active……this is a traumatic set of events that are still actively unfolding for this family. And so for us to be able to be in person with him and for him to be able to, you know, relive the worst few months of his life again was a very tall ask. And, I just want to state the obvious, which is that this family went through……it took such enormous courage for them to……even though Lance and I are relatives, we know them, there’s a lot of love and trust, for them to open up the darkest days of their lives to us, not just, you know, documenting what that experience is like externally, but internally. You know, a grandfather and a grandson having arguments, two brothers having arguments, a husband and a wife after they’ve been kept up until 2:00 in the morning, and Yoni Brook, the director of photography, and I are literally sleeping on their floor, filming them in the middle of the night as they have a huge fight amongst themselves. These are really vulnerable things to trust us to bear witness to and, you know, for the sake of audiences being able to have this authentic window into what they went through. And they deserve a lot of, you know, a lot of our gratitude and hopefully the audience’s gratitude as a result. I think also, Yehuda, Liat’s father……well, first of all, I want to……I think he would approve of this… basically, all of the conversations, like all the Q and A’s, he made a point of letting audiences know that the one person in the film who, like, disagreed with his approach like one of the other hostage family representatives, now agrees with him. Oh, okay. So that was really important for him, which to me is, his personality, and also his commitments. So, you know, he has used, the platform of the film and also of people being interested in him and his story to continue to advance peace. He is part of peace initiatives. They want to bring back Abie Nathan’s “Voice for Peace” radio from somewhere in the Mediterranean Sea. It’s, you know, it’s “Voice for Peace.” And Yehuda is continuing to really sort of, yeah, use every chance he gets to make the case for peace as the only possibility of a positive future in the region. And so my hat is off to him. And it was really interesting to see how much Israeli audiences resonated with him. Yeah, yeah. And I know Liat has written op eds in the New York Times, and she did something with The Atlantic, and I think her career has shifted, and, you know, I want to……I mean, actually, before we just wrap up on the family, what’s the impact work you guys are doing on this film? What’s the impact distribution plans that you have brewing already? If you want to share, whoever wants to share? Well, Lance and Brandon have said since the beginning that their hope and their goal is for the film to inspire real conversations. And so a lot of our impact and distribution plans have to do with creating the right kinds of spaces for real conversations to happen. And we’ve started that with the festivals that Lance mentioned and holding events where people could actually have a facilitated conversation about what spoke to them, which character, you know, to really go into, go into their real feelings and reactions, not just to the film as a film, but to every point of view represented in the film. And that’s the goal going forward, on campuses, in communities, in Jewish communities. Lance can say more about, you know, the specifics of that, but the goal really is to get people talking. And whereas 20 years ago, that would be thought of as like sort of a soft goal for an impact campaign, where the hard goal is like “An Inconvenient Truth” or like “turn your AC down.” At this moment of extreme polarization that we see all over the world on this issue, creating space for people to have real conversations across difference is about as hardcore a goal as you can have for a film, that touches the conflict. 100%. And that’s, you know, why we want to have this dialogue here, and, in fact, I would love I mean, you don’t have to answer now, but when we get to the Eventive live event, you know, sort of film conversation event component of this initiative, we’d love for you to come back. And that’s exactly the point. And, you know, I think of it as coming out of the closet, like one at a time. And then, right? And then you actually, before you know it, a couple decades later, the societies change. Hopefully it sooner than a couple decades. Is there anything else that Brandon or Lance you want to talk about with respect to the impact or distribution or otherwise? I’m also curious to know just, like, honestly, what’s happening with Liat these days? Yeah, I mean, just to build on what, Libby was saying, you know, you can’t take it for granted these days. Anything in a sense. So particularly when it comes to being able to screen a film. You know, when we screened the film in Israel, it was right between, it was unfortunately not during a ceasefire, but it was right before an escalation of the latest round of attacks between Israel and Iran that completely shut down all screenings and all everything, all life. And there was obviously significant loss of life. And it was not even a given that that screening would happen and those kinds of experiences would take place. When we were in the U.S., there’s a lot of different fears that people had about getting together in public to come to a screening, whether it was because of recent shootings that happened in DC or the military parade that was happening right down the street the night that we were screening. All different kinds of fears have shown up, and I think Libby was kind of mentioning this before, and had been expressed to us, not by everyone, but by more than one person to allude to a kind of question of,“should we screen the film?”“Should we go out and attend this screening?”“Should a person or group of people”……and in every single instance, like what’s actually played out, has been versions of what Brandon was talking about with these kinds of exchanges with people expressing gratitude, connection, even when there’s been arguments, they’ve been civil. It’s not that it’s all “Kumbaya,” you know, “Oh, this is all amazing. I agree with everything.” There’s certainly been like heated arguments in some cases, but they’ve been people who have been sitting in the same room talking to each other and then walking out through the hallway, continuing the conversation after they leave the auditorium and, that’s something that feels very, very important to us for that kind of dynamic to really be nurtured and for people to remember that that’s a way that they can connect with one another, that they can connect with this set of issues and their concern for Israelis and Palestinians. That they can enter into that kind of conversation with some, hopefully a great degree of shared recognition……recognition of shared humanity. And that they also don’t have to lose themself in that process. That they can hold on to however they may feel and also receive someone else’s lived experience. And that’s really, I think, been very, very important to us. And whether that happens, like Libby said, in a film festival, or campus, a place of worship, community center, wherever, we’re just very committed to continuing to develop the framework for that. You know, full transparency, we’ve been really appreciative for everything that The Film Collaborative and Jeffrey have done to make that possible. Hilla Medallia, who is an amazing collaborator of ours, who worked with us very, very closely on every aspect of the project. and the making of the film, is also now working on doing a similar type of effort in Israel, too, with all kinds of groups, over there. So this is something that we’re seeing play out everywhere and hope it continues to grow. And I just want to applaud you because that’s, that’s the incredibly difficult and super important work that needs to be done. You made a perfect vehicle for that work. A wonderful art piece and a great vehicle for that peacework and bridge-building work and everything. And I’m so happy that you’re doing that. And, I mean, Brandon, so just I’ll give you the last… I’ll give everyone one last round if they want. But Brandon, just if there’s anything else you want to add, and I am, I’m just, if you don’t mind just telling us what Liat’s up to lately. To the extent that that’s public. I’d love to know. Well, Liat’s been doing a lot of work with the Bereaved Families Forum, which is a group of Israeli and Palestinian family members who have lost loved ones, as a result of this conflict, and just the other day she appeared, did a discussion with another Palestinian woman who had lost multiple family members in Gaza. And, you know, Liat said what she’s been saying since she came out of captivity and continues to say, which is that she does not want any……she does not want anyone to be harmed. She doesn’t want any violence to be perpetrated in revenge for what happened to her, her husband, her family. And is really actively seeking these relationships and these connections with Palestinian family members who have been through similar experiences of her own to really show a sense of solidarity and humanity and empathy across these lines to call for a different path forward. And that’s where I draw hope from her. Given what she’s been through, if she and Palestinian women also can stand together like that, I draw a lot of hope and inspiration from that. And to give a sense of what we’re up against, or what what she’s up against, she gave a speech the other day at an event at the Bereaved Family Forum put together and a group of people watching her speech, in a suburb of Tel Aviv were attacked by, you know, right wing extremists, for watching Israeli and Palestinian family members speaking out for peace. And so it both gives you a window into……you know, incredible people like herself who have been through, you know, a horrific nightmare and have emerged with this kind of empathy and humanity. And also, you know, that there’s real work ahead of us and there’s people who really, do not want that to happen. And that’s why stories like this and, and people like Liat are so important in the world right now. Absolutely. And you mentioned a path forward as a phrase, and our first episode is called“The Path Forward” about the short film, “The Path Forward,” and it’s all connecting. And I thank you so much. I mean, I’ll give any of you, if there’s anything else that you want to say before we part that you didn’t say about the film, about your work, about anyone in the family before we say goodbye to our audience. Is there anything on your minds? I would like to say, that, some of us, like myself, and you, Orly, we got born into this thing. I don’t feel that I have a choice. I’m going to work on peace and Israel-Palestine with every breath until we achieve peace, or until I die, whichever comes first. But Lance and Brandon did not have to make this film. And they chose to plod through the warnings and the polarization and the obstacles because of their commitment to telling this family’s truths. And that’s an incredibly……it’s both courageous and it’s also inspiring. Like, I don’t want to only talk about it from the perspective of like that there was a lot of naysayers around, but also just because they knew that something really beautiful and really important could come out of it, and something really beautiful and important did. And, so I guess it’s my desire to hope and keep telling that part of it so that more people will see fit to not self-censor and to believe in the power of these really beautiful and important stories. We’re being sold a bill of goods. There’s no economy of stories. There’s room for all of them. And we will only get anywhere if they are all told. And so, yeah, I wanted to just voice gratitude for the Kramers making this film. They did not have to do that. And funny enough, Orly invited me to help her with Peaced Off!, and my process of doing this has brought me to this phase of peace. I mean, I’ve been a peace activist since I was a kid, but the war made a lot of different emotions come up. But this is really very calming and centering when you get into this space. We hear the extremes all day long, but here it feels like such an opportunity. And, thank you for the film, and for Orly for bringing it together. And thank you so much. Thank you, Abe, for saying that. And that’s it. We have to remember that online, the algorithms are keeping us tugging at a war, in a war opposite each other. But the truth is, so many people, well, that’s what we find in this work, that actually way more people want this than we might otherwise think. And the more we speak out, the more we’ll hear that reflected back, and build and build and build, and with that, I want to thank you for Peacing Off! with us. For those listening, watching, you know, sign up to get notified about new episodes on getpeacedoff.com. Sign up to be updated about the Eventive event. I hope that we’ll see you there. And we’ll of course share with our audience about, you know, your trailer, your next screenings, or any other subsequent distribution. So honored to have you. Thank you again. Be well. Thank you for being here. Peace. Peace. Thank you. Thank you, Orly Thank you so much. This has been Episode 7 of Peaced Off!, a film and conversation series presented by The Film Collaborative, with our guests, Brandon and Lance Kramer and Libby Lenkinski of the 2025 Berlinale Documentary Award-winning film, “Holding Liat.” Peaced Off! is curated and executive produced by Orly Ravid. It is produced by Abe Gurko. Both Orly Ravid and Abe Gurko serve as moderators for this episode. Our head of Audio and Video Production is David Averbach, who also serves as series Art Director. You can find more about this podcast at GetPeacedOff.com.