Discourse Over Discord on Campus

Abe and Orly speak with two Gen Z young men, Elijah Kahlenberg and Jadd Hashem, to discuss their grassroots, campus-based peace and open dialogue initiative, Atidna, which seeks to solidify Arabs and Jews as cousins, one unified family, and not enemies.

Transcript

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Welcome back to another episode of Peaced Off! Today, I am so thrilled to have two fine, young, upstanding citizens. I have Elijah Kahlenberg and Jadd Hashem. I think it’s Hashem. Am I saying it correct that way? Hashem is good. Yeah, you’re good. Orly Ravid, of course, is the host of this show as well. And I am so excited to introduce you guys because Orly and I have been on this mission, which is what Peaced Off! is all about. And when I saw Jadd on Instagram doing a post, I was like, “We got to find these people,” and here we are. So, Orly, I’d like you to meet Jadd and Elijah. Great to meet you. Really happy to have you here. We’re really very, very touched and honored to be with you. And everything you’re doing is so inspiring and really aligned with our podcast. Welcome. So Elijah is the president and founder of Atidna International, the first and only peace and dialogue organization operating on college campuses…—I want to reiterate on college campuses—…across the U.S. and beyond for Israel/Palestine. Whereas Jadd is a Palestinian-American. He attends the University of Texas, Austin and a dedicated advocate for peace and reconciliation between Jews and Palestinians. And, excuse me, I know that’s a mouthful, but finding you guys, and this episode is all about what you do, and I want to start with you, Elijah, tell us the history of the organization, where you started it, when you started it, and how things are going. Yeah. And thank you both for having us on. It really means the world. The story of a Atidna is really intertwined with my own personal story and the story of my family. So I’m Jewish on both sides of my family, but I come from two very different Jewish backgrounds through my parents. My father is Ashkenazi Jewish, and my fourth great grandfather and my father’s third great grandfather was actually part of the First Aliyah. So the first wave of of pioneers in Ottoman Palestine, they’re really remembered for the founding ethos, which would eventually become the State of Israel. And my father always had a very positive outlook about, Israel, Zionism, and that’s what he instilled within me, because it’s intertwined with his own personal ethos. But my mother’s side had a very different background. She’s Sephardic Jewish, and a lot of her family actually moved to the newly formed state of Israel in the 1950s. They mainly came from Greece, Turkey and Syria. And for Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews, it was not the easiest time in the early state of Israel. And so a lot of that family actually left because it was so tough. They experienced racism, Orientalism, a lot of these negative attributes. And so my parents had two very different narratives they were instilling within me, and that made me question not only about the Jewish story in this land, because I possessed the Jewish story in this land, both for good and for bad, but also about the quote unquote “other,” about the Palestinians, about the Arabs in this land. And that made me want to talk with them and learn their own story. And, I did not have many opportunities growing up to talk with Palestinians. I was mainly inculcated in Jewish institutions and Jewish environments. But when I got to high school, I was finally actually able to meet Palestinians and have conversations with them. The first Palestinian I met, his name was Ahmad, and I knew he was Palestinian because he always wore a keffiyeh. And one day I decided to strike up a conversation with him. And the first thing I said to him was,“Your keffiyeh is not only beautiful, but it reminds me, as a Jewish individual, of our tallit, of our prayer shawl.” And he laughed, he’d never heard what a tallit was, until I explained it to him. But that moment sparked a two hours long conversation between me and Ahmad about our two peoples. What we came away from in that moment was not animosity. We weren’t at each other’s throats. But we had an understanding of how similar our two peoples were. Everything in the conversation was showcasing the familial bonds between Jews and Palestinians. Even the most minute things, like how in Ahmad’s village during their weddings, they break glass during the weddings. And to me I’m like, “Oh my gosh,” during Jewish weddings, that’s a staple, right? We break glass to commemorate the destruction of the temple. And that was really an eye opening conversation because I became aware of the fact that through dialogue, through conversation, our two peoples can humanize each other, specifically by understanding the familial bonds uniting our two peoples. And that was really the spark within me which found dialogue as an outlet for peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding. And when I got to college campuses, I saw how divided these spaces were. Jews and Palestinians do not interact. I mean, on my first day of class, I’m a Middle East Studies triple major, I remember walking into my first Middle East Studies class and seeing on one side of the room were all the Jewish students and on the other side of the room were all the Arab and Palestinian students. And I’m like, “If our two peoples cannot even interact in a classroom setting, where else can we interact on campus, right? This is the space to have conversations, to learn from each other.” And so that’s why I decided to found Atidna. Atidna stands for “our future” in Hebrew and Arabic. “Atid” is a Hebrew word for future, “na” is Arabic for our, put those two together means our future. And I founded it at the end of my freshman year at UT Austin. And we have two basic goals. The first goal is to solidify that Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, are cousins, we’re one family and not inherent enemies. And we host peace events on college campuses around that theme. And our second goal is to bring together both peoples to have a conversation about anything and everything pertaining to Israel and Palestine. We are not a political organization. We don’t define ourselves as Zionist or anti-Zionist or non Zionist. We are simply a platform to allow anyone and everyone who’s invested in this conversation to take part in it together. We’ve been going strong for now, three and a half years. We’re at 14 college campuses. I can get more in the weeds about specific peace events or dialogue sessions we’ve hosted, but it’s really been a journey. And especially after October 7th, when tensions were at an all time high, we had many people even leaving Atidna. Me and Jadd really stepped up and said,“Now more than ever is when dialogue and peace building is most important.” And so that’s fueled a lot of our growth. And we’ve stood strong ever since. And hopefully, b’ezrat hashem, inshallah[with Hashem's help / if Allah wills it], we can continue to grow and bring this to every campus across the world. And Jadd, that brings me to you. When did you start and become a member and how’s your experience been? And from the perspective of an American Palestinian, important distinction. Yeah, it’s, Elijah did a great job there talking about the group as a whole. And I’m Palestinian American. I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas. I go to school in Austin. My family’s Palestinian. We go back hundreds and hundreds of years. My family, really, since 1948, has been in Nablus prior to that, mostly, near Jaffa. And I got involved with Atida about two years ago, still prior to October 7th. I met Elijah in early 2023. And when I met him, I saw that he was a Jewish student, who really was wanting to do advocacy and activism between Palestinians, Israelis, Arabs, and Jews. And for me, growing up, I always cherished my Palestinian identity. I was very much somebody who believed in advocacy for human rights, and Palestine was always a very important part for me in terms of, just, the culture. And Elijah kind of mentioned this with how he interacts with Palestinian students, talking about the traditions and the similarities that we also have with our Jewish neighbors. For me, I grew up around certain Jewish individuals, not really too many in my area, but, the more I got to talk to them, I also began to sort of understand the Jewish story and Jewish history, and I felt that a lot of Palestinian history was very much intertwined with that. And so when I saw Elijah two years ago, really, he had Atida already going. I was really invested in what he wanted to do, bringing the two peoples together. And I’m a big, big proponent of dialogue. I believe that college campuses should be the number one place for free speech. I believe that students of all opinions should come together. And I enjoy when people have, even vehement disagreements with one another. I think it’s very important. I don’t want to be in a space where everything is just in agreement all the time. And so for me, getting to know Elijah for the last two years has been a big, big part of the advocacy that I’ve been able to do. And Atidna, as Elijah mentioned, we do both peace events and dialogue. And it’s about bringing people together and having certain things that we can agree on, kind of finding some common ground here and there, but also, you know, expressing where we have differences. And this can be based off of history. It can be based off of politics, it can be based off of culture. But the end goal is really to bring the people together. I believe in a shared future for both peoples. I don’t believe anybody should be leaving the land. You know, we can talk about what that solution looks like. Two states, one state, confederation, whatever it may be. But I believe that, you know, human rights extend to all people. And I believe that Palestinians like myself, we should also be critical of where we’ve fallen short in this equation. Right? And I think that we have a responsibility to do that. And that’s really what I’ve been able to sort of do now these last two years. And we’ve now expanded, like Elijah said, to over a dozen campuses starting at UT Austin. Now we’ve got chapters, you know, at UPenn and Harvard. And I mean, really a lot of great institutions. And we’re expanding now, hopefully more and more. But that’s sort of my spiel there. And, I’m very grateful to be on this journey thus far. Clearly, you have Jewish friends if you’re into spiel. Right. I’ve taught him the Yiddish-ism that shows you how far he’s come. I know it’s progress. Yeah. He called me a putz the other day. I actually have, if I may, I have a question because, before we started the official recording, we were talking about......that when there is resistance to this kind of thing, right? Where......everything you’ve just said is literally exactly what this podcast is all about, right? And so, we’re really focused on that, finding the common ground and peaceful solutions and really pushing those dialogues. And people can disagree. And in fact, the description of the podcast talks about having historians and archeologists and recognizing that even those experts at those levels might focus on different facts or have some difference of opinion. And that’s okay. But that’s part of the reconciliation. But for the people that......and just in terms of what you’re seeing as far as resistance to this kind of thing, I’d love for you to speak to that. Not to be negative, but to be real about where people are saying,“No, we don’t want to dialogue, we don’t want to acknowledge it.” So called “the other side,” even though there’s many sides. Yeah, there is resistance on both sides, I would say. On the Palestinian side, there is a large belief that any dialogue with Israelis or Jewish Zionists constitutes quote unquote “normalization.” That word, in my opinion, has lost a lot of its meaning. It used to be a political term to mean recognizing the state of Israel. But now any grassroots interaction with an Israeli or Zionist Jew can constitute quote unquote “normalization.” To me, normalization is making normal what should not be normal, right? Injustice, inequality. But for many on the pro-Palestinian side, right? That has become a basic sentiment of stifling speech and interactions with their Israeli and Jewish Zionist cousins. On the other side, on the pro-Israel side, there is also a big push, we’ve seen on campuses many groups, like Mishelanus, like Students Supporting Israel, say they do not want to enter Atidna spaces because they believe that by engaging with Palestinians, they would be entertaining a conversation that allows for someone to support terrorism, which is not true. That’s not what goes on in Atidna. But overall, there is a heavy pushback from both sides, but we believe by simply engaging with the quote unquote “other,” you learn we’re not all that different. You learn there is a path for peace, reconciliation, and mutual understanding. But you simply have to take the first step and actually talk with them. Until we can get to that point, we’ll continue to be set in this state of reggressiveness, of violence, and we need to overcome that. And that is what the power of dialogue holds within it, in my opinion. Yeah, I honestly, Elijah pretty much nails it there. I think that the two different communities, they have the different concerns. And I guess I’ll speak more on just the pro-Palestinian lens of this. You know, because prior to October 7th, I would say that I was more affiliated with with these groups because of advocacy that I thought they were doing on behalf of Palestinians. But after October 7th, though, you know, for me, one of my main principles is I’m for nonviolence. And I believe that human life is sacred and that that’s something we find in Jewish text. We find that in Muslim text. It’s very much an Abrahamic thing. And I felt that after October 7th, and I’ve connected with Israelis whose parents were killed that day. I’ve interacted with Israelis whose family members were taken. Elijah actually had cousins who were taken hostage on that day as well. So, I mean, he understands the pain. And of course, I also have gotten to know many Palestinians who have lost, in some cases, dozens of family members. Just two days ago, I know two Palestinians who both lost family members. And it’s horrible. You know, when it comes to the pro-Palestine side, though, I don’t believe in this armed resistance, where we are......killing civilians and taking people hostage. I mean, babies and elders. It goes against my faith as a Muslim. It goes against who I a as a human being. It goes against who I am as a Palestinian and, you know, the way I see it is, I try to call a spade, a spade wherever I see it. And this gets me in some trouble with both spaces, because I’ve said, for example, to many, kind of more standard right wing pro-Israel folks that I believe Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. And I believe that there’s an apartheid in the West Bank. And I think the occupation needs to end. And then the Palestinians will cheer for that. And then I’ll go to the pro-Palestine people and I’ll say, well, I think Hamas is a terrorist organization that also deliberately goes after civilians and also is hurting the Palestinian people and their leaders are corrupt and live in Qatar with mansions and etc. and taking hostages is a war crime. And that gets me in trouble with, you know, their sort of group. So, I’m all about laying it the way I see it. And we don’t have to agree on everything. You don’t have to believe, for example, that there is apartheid in the West Bank. But if we can agree that there’s discrimination and that it should end then we can get somewhere. And I know people who will disagree with me passionately on this. I believe in a shared future. And I think the pro-Palestine movement right now suffers from some of the understanding of building partners with our Jewish brothers and sisters, because some of them, unfortunately, do believe in this “armed resistance,” which is really just in many cases, outright violence. Right? And I don’t believe in that. I believe Israelis are my brothers and sisters. I don’t want to harm my family. And if I see them as my family, I’m not going to touch them. You know, it doesn’t matter if you feel that......they are your enemy. It’s irrelevant to this. You do not harm a civilian. You do not take somebody hostage. For both sides of this. And that’s what we need to understand. And again, we can disagree on some of these terms, but if we can get to a common ground of what we would like to see, then we can do something about that. That’s what matters to me. And on that train of thought, I think there is nothing more quote unquote, “pro-Palestinian” than Palestinians being able to share their stories, to share their traumas and their aspirations, especially to those who need to hear them most. To Jews and Israelis, right? The people who have agency to actually change the situation on the ground. And the Palestinian story has been excluded in many respects from media, from other institutions. So by Palestinians taking the initiative to come into dialogue spaces, to share what makes them, them, to share their plights from the past 77 years, that has so much power to actually change the situation. So I would say dialogue is actually a very pro-Palestinian avenue, not something to be shunned or condemned as quote unquote “normalization.” Amen. A that’s what brings us here, of course. And, the fact that you’re on the college campuses is such an underreported......I mean, the fact that that’s not becoming the message as we go into a new school year, like by August, September, I mean, we’ll do whatever we can to get your message out through this platform, which is on top of that......the fact that you exist on a campus like Harvard, you would never think......that’s like, whoa. And the unfortunate thing is that it seems like it’s less about peace and more about staying on this message of like, conflict. So that’s what we’re up against because of misinformation and disinformation, which is what Orly’s talking about in the paper she wrote. And it’s interesting times, we’re living in, which is a Chinese curse, but who’s counting? So tell us about the campuses. How do you go about starting one, how to make contact and what is required, would be interesting for us to share. Yeah, that’s a great question. So we only have one prerequisite to get started on a college campus. And that’s you need at least one Jewish student and one Arab student to co-lead the chapter. And after that you are good to go. So, for example, at UT Austin, up until this past semester, after I graduated, me and Jadd were the co-leaders of the chapter. And so as the leaders, we moderated the dialogues. We conducted the peace events. Us as moderators of a dialogue, our role was to actually take a very hands off position. We wanted students, both Jewish, Arab, and other, to come into these spaces and feel free to express their sentiments without any restrictions. Our role as moderators is to more so ensure that neither Jews nor Arabs are speaking over the quote unquote “other.” We want, as moderators, to ensure Jewish students and Arab students are bouncing off each other very fluidly in the conversation. And so it’s our role to call on students to make sure one group is not impinging or overshadowing the other in the conversation. And once you have those two students, it’s very easy to get growth, right? The Jewish student is probably very embedded within the Jewish community on campus. Can pull Jewish and Israeli students into Atidna. The Arab student can pull Arab and Palestinian students. In terms of peace events, the officers are also responsible for setting up at least one peace event every semester. So, for example, after October 7th, a lot of our peace events have revolved around joint vigils to honor all innocents who have been lost after October 7th. In fact, it was on the one month anniversary after October 7th that me and Jadd co-led a vigil on UT Austin’s campus. It was actually only one of two joint vigils at that time on a college campus to honor all innocents, Israelis, and Palestinians who had been lost in the past month of fighting. And......Orly we were talking about this beforehand……if it bleeds, it leads, right? Because our nature as bringing both communities together, having that conversation, peace events, we have not really gotten all that much attention, but through the little attention we have gotten, it’s that media savviness that we’ve been inclined to that’s actually gotten us a lot of our outreach to college campuses. So, for example, we’ve done appearances on ABC News’ Nightline, we’ve been on CNN, we’ve been on NPR, and it’s through those media appearances that students across the country have taken notice of Atidna and typically they directly reach out to either me or Jadd. And through there, we’ll set up a conversation with them. We’ll run them through our basic goals and aspirations as an organization. And if they’re on board, we are more than willing to work with them to ensure at their campus they get an Atidna chapter. We also partner with an organization in the West Bank called Roots……Shorashim in Hebrew., Judhur in Arabic……they’re the only group in the West Bank bringing together Jews and Palestinians for peace building, for reconciliation work. And it’s through them that a lot of high school and college students do tours and hear the narratives of both Jews and Palestinians. And to those students, they will also promote them to start an Atidna chapter on their campus. And so it’s through Roots that we’ve also gotten a lot of students in our camp starting Atidna chapters. Yeah, and if I can add just something to that real quick, sort of the beautiful thing about this, I think, in a way, is that, when we did one of our first really big peace events in November of 2023, one month after October 7th, we had maybe 80 to 100 people show up for that. And it was really cool. But really what makes that significant is that, the local media in Austin started to pick it up, and then they began to cover it. And then from there, slowly but surely, you get, kind of like statewide media to see it. And then you get national media. And this is how oftentimes we get people to start the chapters, as Elijah mentioned. Elijah and I, we wrote an article, almost a year and a half ago, I guess, in The Forward, where we talked about Atidna and, I think that’s how our Columbia chapter actually got started……one of the girls from our Columbia chapter who is Jewish Israeli, saw it and fell in love with the idea. ABC News Nightline was another big hit for us, where people see it and they gravitate towards us, right? And we always encourage people, if you are a kid on a college campus, if you are Jewish or Arab, Israeli or Palestinian, and you are seeking that sort of dialogue and, that sort of wanting to build bridges, Elijah and I, we’d love to talk with you. And it’s very much easy to reach out to us, either on social media, or on the Atidna page. We’re very passionate about the work that gets done here. And that’s sort of the beautiful thing when we get this coverage. And Elijah has done so much media, more than me, and he’s been able to build bridges as well. And, it’s interesting, in some cases, he’s able to bring kind of Arabs and Palestinians at times, and I’m able to bring some Jews and Israelis, and sometimes it just works out that way. But, yeah, it shows kind of the work that’s being done. And it’s more important than ever before. Amen, and we’re also on social media now, much more than we were in the past. And it’s now through also social media that we’re getting a lot of students coming into Atidna spaces. We recognize that a lot of students don’t watch CNN, but they’re definitely on Instagram. Or adults lately, by the way. So I just want to say, in the show notes it’ll be available to where to sign up, and for sure you’re Instagram. I was fortunate that you came into my feed but now I’m following you. But, I just think that what you’re doing is like on the level of the heroes, and we are lacking them these days. I’m honored that you gave us this time. I want to make sure that......Orly, do you have any other last questions you’d like to ask? Well, I just wanted to emphasize something the Jadd said, because I really loved it when you were speaking of your... you were being very honest. And I think some people are afraid of being honest in terms of your perspectives, with regard to the war. And you used the what I love to call the “G word” and the “A word,” genocide and apartheid. And I think that’s brave and important. And I know a lot of people agree with you and I do take issue with the terms, but I want to emphasize the fact that that’s something we can all have a peaceful dialogue about, right? We can say, I’ve heard this argument, and I sort of agree with it, that the terms themselves are problematic because of their legal definition. But when people use them, they might not be interested in like being extra......like for them it doesn’t matter, the legal, the not legal. The point is there’s terrible things happening, right? And they want to speak to that. And I think that’s okay. Like we can dialogue about that and say “yeah.” And I think if people do keep dialogue in the way you’re facilitating, it’s okay if they disagree with the terms, but they should start to find what they agree about. Like we need to create a different situation here in the West Bank. We need to create a different situation of the way this war is being prosecuted and how Hamas is being pursued. It’s not okay what’s been resulting, right? And to be more humane about it. So I just love what you guys are doing. And I just wanted to speak to that because sometimes we try not to make it like a political dialogue, but it’s also important to not be afraid of having honest conversation, even about the tough stuff and getting past it. That’s the ethos of Atidna. We’ve entertained those conversations in Atidna spaces, right? Bringing Jewish students and Palestinian students saying,“Is it apartheid in the West Bank?”“Is what’s going on in Gaza a genocide?” And some students, like you said, are taking the more legal academic lens. Some are going through pathos, right? Talking about their family stories, family members killed or prevented from entering certain areas of the West Bank. And so I think all of it is beneficial. It shapes our perspective in different but unique ways. And I think that’s how we grow. And we need to at least have the conversation. We can’t just put it off because that is how we change the situation, 100%. And how about another term like Zionism? How that’s become such a buzz word in many cases because you can ask ten people and get ten different answers of what Zionism is, right? And I think, like for Palestinians, the way I grew up thinking about it was very different than how most Jews would, which is in many cases the right to self-determination for the Jewish people. And, that’s kind of the thing, we’ll even talk about, what is Zionism to you? Because if somebody says “I’m an anti-Zionist or I’m a strong Zionist,” automatically both sides of people, there’s sort of like bells and alarms going off, right. And it’s important that we’re like, “okay, but what what are we talking about? What do you envision, right?” And so I think that it’s very important, yes, that people are honest, of course, and that we also go into depth about what we mean, right? And that’s the beauty Atidna, having conversations where people talk about what they really feel and getting to get these really intricate conversations. And it’s always beautiful, too, because Atidna dialogues go for about an hour and a half, but Elijah can attest to this, people always stay afterwards for sometimes an hour or more to have these one-on-one conversations with people. So people are very much passionate. We almost always have to cut off the dialogue or even extend it by a few minutes because people are trying to go longer. This is all a part of the Atidna process. And what you’ll find, and Jadd hit on this, is certain terms, buzzwords, they can actually stifle conversation, right? Some will say, “Oh, I won’t speak to a Zionist or an anti-Zionist.” But when you ask them,“What do you aspire in the land?“What do you mean when you say you’re a Zionist or anti-Zionist?” Sometimes there’s not even conflict between their two answers, sometimes their aspirations for the land share much more in common than they would previously imagine. And so by simply getting people to unpack, what do they want in the land? What do they mean by their worldview? We learn that we do not conflict. In fact, we find many similarities. And that’s the beauty of actually having a conversation not in one minute segments on social media, but through authentic, one-on-one human engagement in the setting like we’re trying to ensue in Atidna. And I’m very hopeful for this model to expand, take root on as many campuses as possible, because our generation definitely needs to be having these conversations. I have a lot of hope for our generation. I think we can change the situation, but we have to be willing to engage with the quote unquote “other” to come to those peaceful resolutions, to the violence we’re currently seeing. Yeah, absoluately, and the fact is that your message has to figure out a way to resonate beyond just the minorities like us who really see that that’s the only way forward. It is the only way forward. And anyone that doesn’t really believe that, is part of……like, not seeing the truth about where the future can bring us, you know? Yeah. So this was an absolute pleasure for me. I just want to say, I’m throwing in one other Yiddish word, I said to Orly, you’re going to kvell for [gush over] these guys, and I’m sure she has. I don’t think I’ve taught Jadd kvell, but I think it’s added another Yiddish-ism to his repertoire so I’m very happy. But thank you so much, both Abe and Orly, kol hakavod [well done], all the respect you are both mensches[people of integrity], another Yiddish word, Jadd. I really appreciate what you two are doing. I think facilitating the conversation is the path forward. And you two have done a beautiful job at doing that. So kol hakavod, truly. I repeat that sentiment, for sure, 100%. Shukran / Todo raba [thank you]. You guys are awesome. Thank you. To you as well. All right. Be well. Bye bye. This has been episode eight of Peaced Off!, a curated film and conversation series presented by The Film Collaborative with our guests Elijah Kahlenberg and Jadd Hashem of Atidna International. Peaced Off! is curated and executive produced by Orly Ravid. It is produced by Abe Gurko. Both Orly Ravid and Abe Gurko serve as moderators for this episode. Our head of audio and video production is David Averbach, who also serves as series art director. You can find more about this podcast at getpeacedoff.com.