Pancakes, Pocket Crosses, And A Very Busy Cafe

What happens when two neighbouring churches decide to think bigger than their own walls? We gather with St Stephen’s in the heart of Norwich to prepare for Lent, swap stories from a thriving city café, and open a brave conversation about Christian nationalism—how faith can be misused to prop up identity politics, and how we can respond with humility, scripture, and neighbourly love.

Edward sits down with the new vicar of St Stephen’s, Reverend Heike, to talk about shared ministry a stone’s throw apart. We compare worship styles, celebrate the café that welcomes hundreds each week, and reflect on small signs of grace: a thousand pocket crosses finding their way into hands and homes, a guidebook that turns curiosity into wonder, and simple hospitality that keeps conversations warm. The city’s voices chime in too—visitors drawn by sport, heritage, and the beauty of Norwich’s historic churches—reminding us that community is built one genuine exchange at a time.

Our joint Lent study, written by both clergy, invites a thoughtful look at the pressures of public faith. Instead of telling people what to think, we’ll read scripture, share experiences, and ask harder questions: How do we honour our country without excluding others? What does repentance look like in civic life? Where does the gospel challenge slogans and amplify compassion? Set against the season’s rituals—from Ash Wednesday’s ashes made from last year’s palms to Shrove Tuesday’s lemon-and-sugar pancakes—this conversation aims to be honest, generous, and grounded.

Walk with us into Lent. Subscribe for more conversations from the heart of Norwich, share this episode with a friend who loves thoughtful faith, and leave a review to help others find our community.

Transcript

February Reflections And Signs Of Spring

SPEAKER_06 0:03

Well, hello and welcome to the Be More Mancroft Podcast and our February edition, February 2026. I'm Edward Carter. And I'm Judy Ball. And it's lovely you've joined us again. Judy, well we've reached February. Is February a good month for you, do you think, or not really?

SPEAKER_05 0:19

February is yes, getting better. I do not like January. And someone said on the radio yesterday, it today is the hundred and forty-seventh day of January. Oh right. It just seems seems like it sometimes.

SPEAKER_07 0:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:32

They're coming to an end and the and the nights are well, the afternoons aren't quite so dark unless it's a dull day. Yeah. So a hint of spring.

SPEAKER_06 0:39

That's right. The days are definitely supposed to be getting longer, aren't they? I think I'm beginning to notice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and a few flowers, of course, just coming out of whether they should be, I don't know yet, but they seem to be.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

I've got some aconites in my garden and the odd snow drop that I have seen some daffodils.

SPEAKER_06 0:53

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

So there are around already, which is quite early.

Lent Approaches And Ash Wednesday Plans

SPEAKER_06 1:00

So you've got you've got aconites. Well, it sounds like some sort of meteorite that's landed from Athens. Oh, I see, okay, yeah, yeah. Lovely. Much better than the meteorite, yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, February, yes. So what does that mean in terms of Minecraft and church and everything, I wonder?

SPEAKER_05 1:18

Well, we're coming into Lent, aren't we?

SPEAKER_06 1:20

Yes, yes. 18th is Ash Wednesday, I believe. That's right. Yes, Ash Wednesday is the start of Lent. Yes. Yes, Easter's quite early. It varies a bit at time of year. Beginning of April, yes. So eighteenth of February will be Ash Wednesday and that's well a solemn day really, I suppose, in the life of the church.

SPEAKER_07 1:38

Yes. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:40

Yeah, we I mean we begin season of of penitence. And do you do you tend to have um ash put on your head? Do you come to the service for that?

SPEAKER_05 1:47

Oh yes. And in fact, I've still got the cross from last year, which I'm bringing into the church because you use those crosses, don't you? Yes. To make the ashes for this year.

Introducing The Joint Lent Study

SPEAKER_06 1:56

Yes, that's a very skilled job, you know, turning last year's palm crosses into ash. Yeah, it has to be done very carefully. We used to make the palm crosses years ago. I remember being involved in doing that. I've I've certainly done that as well, yeah. So lovely custom to use last year's crosses to make ashes. Yes. And of course, when we get to Lent, one of the things we do is always have a Lent group, a kind of discussion group or a study group. And the last several years we've done it with St. Stephen's Church, actually. We've shared and it's been a little bit, yes, you have. And uh this year, in fact, the thing with the study course we're going to be doing is a new one. It's uh freshly written by the vicar at St. Stephen's Church and myself. I'm actually I caught up with her the other day. So shall we listen to the interview I did with her? Oh, yes, please. Well, I'm actually here at St. Stephen's Church here in Norwich, and you possibly can just hear in the background the hum of the cafe, which meets here day by day, really, through the week. And I'm here with the Reverend Heiker Apprentice, who is the vicar here at St. Stephen's. Hiker, it's so lovely to be here with you. Lovely to be in your church.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Hello, Edward. Good to have you here. Oh, yeah, great for popping in. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 3:10

Yes. I mean the the it's slightly embarrassing, really, how close our two churches are. They are literally within eyesight, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, how far apart would you say they are?

Interview: Vicar Of St Stephen’s

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Stone throw, I keep telling my friends. But I think it's great division of labour. You do a whole lot of things that we don't have to do, and we do other bits and pieces, and it's perfect.

SPEAKER_06 3:29

Yeah, and I say the same thing. When people say to me, Isn't it odd having St. Stephen so close? I say, No, it's amazing and wonderful. As you say, you know, Mancroft we can do some specific stuff and um maybe sort of formal liturgy, the bells, yeah. And then here you have the amazing cafe and uh and a ministry, different worship style, of course. So perfect complementarity, really. Yeah, wonderful. And but you're fairly new here, of course, aren't you? How long have you been here at St. Stephen's now?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

So I started six months ago, beginning of July twenty twenty-five. And I'm still definitely finding my feet, but loving it. Absolutely loving being vicar of this place.

SPEAKER_06 4:06

Fantastic. And Norwich is a city as well as a place?

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Oh my goodness. I'm uh I've come here late in life and think, where have I been? Why haven't I come here before? It is the most wonderful, vibrant city, everything is walking distance. My husband and I are absolutely enjoying living here.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

Fantastic. Well I I love Norwich as well. I'm not I wasn't born or grown grown up here, but um it's uh it's a great city, yeah. And in fact, I think I'm right in saying your background and upbringing, or that's slightly unusual. Do you do you mind just sharing a tiny bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Unusual in what sense? I mean I am so I'm German born. I think that's probably what you mean. That's not unusual for other Germans, but but yes, I was I was uh born and raised in Germany and then met my husband on holiday and we got married, that's almost forty years ago now, and as they say, the rest is history. I've got new dual nationality now and really have a heart for both nations, both countries equally.

SPEAKER_06 5:11

Yeah, well that's such a brilliant thing because our friendships across national boundaries are so important. It's one of the wonderful things about being a Christian is the fact that we have things in common, a faith in common, a hope in common with people literally in every corner of the world. So it's that's a glorious thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Absolutely, and I think that transcends, that hope really transcends cultural differences and and uh diversity in a way that I think nothing else does. It's extraordinary how you can meet with people from completely different backgrounds and values, and you you have you you mention the name of Jesus or prayer or journey of faith or an experience and their face lights up and you know you've got a shared and common experience there.

Norwich Life And Shared Ministry

SPEAKER_06 5:58

Yeah, that's brilliant. Well, we we were saying earlier about how the ministries of our two different churches are very complementary, but there are one or two things that we do closely together. Obviously, there are some good personal friendships um across our members, but the Lent group that comes around once a year, the last few years, we've done a combined Lent group, and we're planning the same again this year, which of course will will be start this month, February, towards the end of February, is when the sessions will start again. They're going to be the same as in previous years Wednesday's daytime group. But we've been working together on a bit of um some materials for this Lent group, which is to do with the slightly controversial issue of Christian nationalism, the way in which people use the Christian faith as a kind of bulwark or prop for a nationalist approach, a kind of you know we're English and the rest of the world is hopeless kind of thing. That's slightly over stressing yet. W G why do you feel this is an important theme for us to be thinking about just at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I think it's a really important thing for us to think. First of all, we we are bombarded in the media with all kinds of polarization and views and politicians and world leaders, and it isn't always easy to kind of work our out where and what we should think, say or do or believe, especially when those leaders will actually claim sort of a Christian narrative to their own to their own decisions. And I think I think for all of us, no sometimes we're in terms of land groups, um, if I'm honest, looking back on it, we we might expect something quite uh inward looking or something to be looking at your own personal life. But I actually think this year there seems to be something going on that is challenging that kind of inward looking trajectory to to change towards looking outward and actually looking at those bigger issues that we sometimes would prefer to avoid and because they're uncomfortable. And I think this is an opportunity to to walk together and to allow ourselves to ask some difficult questions, whether we will find the answers for that, who knows. But just to allow that to to come up because it's there anyway. And I think sometimes we're frightened to to explore those questions and to ask ourselves how do I honour my nationality, my background, my country, without necessarily excluding others. What does that look like? Have we got enough resources? All of those really difficult questions. As Christians, we can and should look at those.

SPEAKER_06 8:44

Yeah, yeah. Well, it'll be really interesting to meet as as as a group. And I think you and I will each probably sort of take a bit of a share in in leading the group, so but there'll be other leaders as well. So I'm really looking forward to it. But it as you say, it's quite a kind of you know, challenging issue almost to uh to address. But it's great we can do it as two churches together. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Well, I should think that the interactions will be very interesting. So I would encourage everybody to take part because actually it's not just about what we have thought about, it is about everybody's input. And let's learn uh together and listen to one another and see what our experiences and our understanding teach us.

Why Study Christian Nationalism Now

SPEAKER_06 9:24

Yeah, brilliant. Well, that's really good. So that's Wednesdays starting the end of this month, February, and then into March through Lent. So there'll be lots of details about that. Yeah. Well, the buzz of the cafe is still there in the background. How many people come through your cafe here at St. Stephen's each week, do you think, Haika?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Um, it really varies, but we do we do sometimes get I mean, I think it's the day figures I'm more aware of. So so it can be e c t two, two, three, four hundred people. Uh it just depends on whether it's a really busy day. Some at the moment it looks rather busy out there, especially during lunchtime. And we have quieter days as well, but it's very popular. People just love the bus, the community, and just being able to have a cup of tea and chat.

SPEAKER_06 10:13

Definitely. Well, certainly when I'm meeting up with people, quite often I'll drop in here, bring them here for a cup of tea. So it's a wonderful ministry, yeah, yeah, wonderful. Heike, thank you ever so much for chatting with me today. I can't tell you how how delighted I am that we have this shared ministry in in the heart of Norwich. It's a great privilege for me that you've arrived here at uh St. Stephen. So thank you ever so much. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 10:36

Thank you, Edwards. Oh, that was interesting listening to that. I've haven't met Heike, but I think I'm going to have to make a point of meeting her. She sounds a very lively lady. Yes. Very enthusiastic.

SPEAKER_06 10:47

Yeah, I I like her a lot. I and I did actually know her a little bit before she came to Norwich. Oh, did you? Our paths crossed in Essex when when we were both there.

SPEAKER_05 10:55

Yes. Yeah. But you're getting together you to do this the Lent group. That's right, yes. Now I haven't I'd be honest, I haven't done a Lent group. But I think I might come along this year. I think that sounds quite interesting. And and it would be nice to meet her too. Yes.

Invitation To Learn Together In Lent

SPEAKER_06 11:10

So I think I might come along to that in the Well I'd certainly encourage you to. Uh yes, yes, a Lent group is quite a tradition really, I think. Um to have a Lent group. Churches often will run a Lent group. And it's usually is we have five meetings through Lent. Right. And it's a number of meetings, and it the idea is that you'll have something to study, to read together, to look at. But mainly it's a conversation, you know, discussion, perhaps return to your neighbour and talk about something and that might be a question to think about. Um usually there'll be some passages of scripture as well, which there are for this material that Iker and I have written. Yes, this theme of Christian nationalism is is quite challenging in a way. But it's very topical. Do you remember that um slightly slightly um disturbing rally that happened in London Square, Tommy Robinson, all the flags and everything. I know lots of people were there and but but it was, you know, there were there was some slightly challenging, quite challenging um aspects of all of that.

SPEAKER_07 12:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 12:07

Um and and other things happening around the world actually. Yeah. Yeah. So so anyway, the the course material uh w yeah, I won't say well you you mustn't think that and you should think this. It'll be more opening up a discussion is the idea. And then we learn from one another.

SPEAKER_05 12:23

Yes. You get many people on the length courses.

SPEAKER_06 12:25

Yeah, yeah. I mean normally so we use the octagon room at the church and usually, particularly for the first week or two, which is normally, you know, numbers sort of drop off a little bit. Um but normally the octagon is pretty full really. You know, we put a a big circle of chairs around us and have a cup of coffee to start with, maybe biscuits, and then um and then the the discussion uh, you know, is led by um and we normally have different leaders for each meeting. Because we've got the two churches, you know, there are a number of people who can lead groups. So I expect I shall lead one of them. I know Heiker will, and there'll be other there'll be other people leading them as well. Yeah. Well I do I do commend it to you, Judah. Not just because you get a cup of coffee and a biscuit, but but you know, so it's a really interesting thing.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

Yes, I'm sure.

St Stephen’s Cafe And Community Hub

SPEAKER_06 13:07

Yeah. And and the other thing is you don't quite know who you're going to be sitting next to each week. And um it's a lovely way of meeting new people as well. Yeah, and across both the churches. Well now, I did a few days ago, I met someone in church who was visiting and and he was looking at the back of church. We have that little table with books and other lovely things, the little pocket crosses. Oh yeah, of course. Various interesting things. And anyway, I called to a quick word with him. Did a did a mini mini interview. That's our mini interview. So maybe we'll listen to that now. Okay. Well, I'm here at the church and uh someone here visiting, actually, um, we're here at the back where the books and all the other bits and bobs are, and um it's so lovely to meet you. What's brought you to the church today?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

So I come to the church today because it's uh a good friend of mine's birthday today.

SPEAKER_06 13:56

Lovely.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

And I know this church means quite a lot to him.

SPEAKER_06 13:58

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

So I was hoping to get a gift or two from from here from him.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

Good, and the the the books and things at the back hopefully might fit the bill.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Definitely, yeah. I even bought one for myself.

SPEAKER_06 14:08

Oh, wonderful. Great. Oh, thank you so much. It's lovely to meet you. Thanks for visiting.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Thank you guys so much.

SPEAKER_05 14:13

Having listened to you talking to that gentleman reminds me of mind you, it was some time ago when I was welcoming and somebody came in and actually mentioned at the time that we didn't really have much at all to to buy to take, like sort of souvenirs or anything to to take home off the church. But of course we've got the crosses. Yeah, the pocket crosses. Yes. Yes, they're lovely. But of course that's all changed, I think, now. We've got more, haven't we?

SPEAKER_06 14:38

Well, there's a little bit, yes, yes. I mean, it's not like a great supermarket or anything, you don't need a shopping trolley to no we certainly wouldn't want that. Um and there's a there's a little bit, yes. There are certainly some there's the guidebook, which is lovely and informative about the building. There's that little book that's about Thomas Brown. Yes. That's interesting. There are there's some postcards and a few a few little things, aren't there?

SPEAKER_05 15:01

Julian C D.

SPEAKER_06 15:02

Yes, a lovely C D Julian Haggart made, I suppose, a couple of years ago now, yeah. Yes, yes, the the the cups, the coffee cups.

SPEAKER_05 15:10

Yes.

Reactions And Joining The Lent Group

SPEAKER_06 15:10

To avoid throwing around guns. Yeah, you have got and you don't want too much. Well, no, I I agree with you really. I mean it's it's lovely to have a few things there. But um yeah, I'm quite keen. And and the other thing is, although we do kind of say, well, you know, this is how much this booklet is, yeah. Properly speaking, it you know, that it's all a donation really for things. It's not like there's not like a till and you have to you know, there's not a price ticket or a barcode scan or whatever. You know, you you basically just if you if you would like something then make a donation for it.

SPEAKER_05 15:40

So yeah, I think of course the pocket crosses are so popular.

SPEAKER_06 15:44

Well, I know. I read somewhere in the newsletter the other day about how many had um had been taken by people in the last year.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

How many was it? Janice said she'd made a thousand pounds, didn't she?

SPEAKER_06 15:55

I mean they're a pound each, I think, aren't they? So that's that is a thousand pocket crosses, yes.

SPEAKER_07 15:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 15:59

Just think of all those prayers people are saying, perhaps you know, holding those crosses. Yeah, no, they are beautiful, yeah. Well, Be More Mancroft is a great podcast about the church, but it's about the heart of Norwich as well. So you'll be pleased to hear, I hope, Judy, that I'm often out wandering around in the parish. Oh, good. All sorts of lovely people for me, all the time. It always amazes me actually how how busy and bustling the city is.

SPEAKER_05 16:23

It's vibrant, very vibrant, someone said to me. Norwich is a very vibrant city.

SPEAKER_06 16:27

Yeah, and um great variety of people, young and old, all sorts. And um, by and large getting on pretty well together. And I bumped into a couple of American quite young men, um who are obviously perhaps over here for a little bit, a few months. And anyway, I I I I got the microphone out and had a quick chat with them. So maybe should we listen to them yes? Well, I'm here in the market and I've just bumped into a couple of people and kind of asked them what they like about Norwich. What do you like about Norwich?

SPEAKER_04 16:57

I love the the community and how they gather around sports. Absolutely love that. Probably my favorite part apart from the beautiful ancient structures that you get to see, like the Norwich Cathedral. Love that.

SPEAKER_06 17:10

Nice, thank you. And what about you? What do you love about Norwich?

SPEAKER_03 17:13

I love the history here, because I mean I have ancestors that come from England, so being able to come to England and just see where my ancestors used to live, it's it's a real blessing to me.

Market Voices: Visitors On Norwich

SPEAKER_06 17:22

Amazing. Thank you guys, really good to meet you. Yeah, thank you. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 17:27

Well, that was interesting listening to that American saying he had ancestors.

SPEAKER_06 17:31

Yeah, yeah, they were. They were such a lovely couple of young men, they really were. Yeah. They were. Yeah, yeah. I mean, do you do and your uh family duty, does that go back um generations in Norwich or not?

SPEAKER_05 17:42

I haven't gone back too far. My mother's side of the family. Apparently, my great grandfather Pope was a hay and straw merchant in King Street. Oh wow, yeah. And apparently lived down somewhere near where St. Julian's. Somewhere on the corner of St. Julian's Terrace or alley or whatever it was. It was that really early. But so what would be about probably pff I don't know, about the 1800s maybe?

SPEAKER_06 18:06

Right, so it's more than two hundred years ago, then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:08

So that's as far as I've never really gone back any further.

SPEAKER_06 18:11

Yeah, it's amazing. It's wonderful to think of all those trades that existed back then, isn't it? Yes, and how different the world was. Yeah, yeah. So that was your mother's side.

SPEAKER_05 18:21

My father's family came from Worthing.

SPEAKER_06 18:23

Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

My great grandfather was an artist and he had a art gallery in Worthing.

SPEAKER_06 18:27

Yeah, I think my the Carter family, my family came originally from Portsmouth.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

Oh, did they?

SPEAKER_06 18:31

And they're traced back to Portsmouth.

SPEAKER_07 18:33

Really?

SPEAKER_06 18:33

Um and they they didn't sell hay and straw. They they they brewed um beer for the Navy. Oh, did they? The Navy was big in Portsmouth.

SPEAKER_07 18:41

Yes. Oh.

SPEAKER_06 18:41

I think they did quite well selling beer to Nelson's Navy, yeah. Yeah. Well, February, a bit cold, of course. So you're gonna wrap up warm and keep keep warm. I'm certainly gonna try.

SPEAKER_05 18:54

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

Um extra pair of socks in church, do you think? Possibly.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

Although the church is quite warm, you know, it's all right.

Heritage, Family Roots, And Local Trades

SPEAKER_06 19:01

Yeah, we're we're doing our best. Yes. Running those air source heat pumps. Um, yes, they're doing well, I think. To keep the church as warm as we can, yeah. And of course, we mentioned earlier about Lent coming up, and that means Ash Wednesday. But that means Shrove Tuesday. Of course. And Shrove Tuesday means Pancakes. Yes. Pancakes. So you partial to pancakes then do you?

SPEAKER_05 19:21

I like an old fashioned pancake. I only like pancakes with lemon juice and sugar. I don't end none of these modern ones.

SPEAKER_06 19:28

No. No. With what what's the most exotic pancake you've heard of, do you think? Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 19:33

They put them with all different fruits and savory. They have all sorts, don't they, nowadays?

SPEAKER_06 19:38

You could probably get, I don't know, ginger and artichoke pancake or something.

SPEAKER_05 19:42

Ginger would be fine. I love ginger. Yeah, but I don't think I've figured for anything else.

SPEAKER_06 19:47

Well, who knows? Maybe pancakes on Shrove Tuesday. That would be nice.

SPEAKER_05 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:50

Yeah. Now, what about our friend St. Peter Mancroft? Have you you haven't been asked who he is recently, have you? No.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

But I reckon he's the I think he's the patron saint of pancake tossing.

SPEAKER_06 20:01

Well, they get out here. Yes, yes. No, I'm actually having checked it, I'm sure that's right. Yeah. So Peter Mancroft, the patron saint of of uh tossing the pancakes. Yeah, yeah. I can just picture him now, actually, you know, flow how high can you toss a pancake? Oh gosh. A couple of feet perhaps, maybe more. I've only tried once. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:19

And I didn't do very well as well.

SPEAKER_06 20:20

Did you not? Did it end up on the ceiling or the floor? On the floor. Oh, right, okay. Well, you obviously need to pray harder to um for the blessings that uh God gives us through St. Peter Mancrofts, I think. Yeah, wonderful. Good. Well, Judy, lovely to chat with you as always. Enjoyed it. I'm sure February will be full of good things.

SPEAKER_05 20:38

I hope so.

SPEAKER_06 20:39

Um and uh thank you all for joining us for for listening in, and um, we hope you'll join us again in March.