Why Ego Is the New Enterprise Risk with Deborah Borg, EVP, Chief People & Culture Officer, IFF.

In this episode of Executiveland, Elizabeth Freedman speaks to Deborah Borg, EVP, Chief People and Culture Officer at IFF. Deborah shares her insights on navigating the C-Suite, balancing leadership roles, and the power of clear communication. They dive into the evolving role of HR, how to influence the C-Suite as an HR executive, and the tension between business needs and people-first leadership.

You’ll explore:

• The challenges and rewards of being the sole HR voice in the C-Suite, and how to keep employee interests front and center.
• The importance of speaking up early and confidently, even on topics outside your functional expertise, plus why curiosity is at a premium for today's senior leaders.
• Why collaboration (not ego) is key to executive leadership, along with managing change, handling fatigue, and being explicit about what to stop doing.
• The strategic value of HR leaders on corporate boards and how to break into board roles.
• Balancing digital tools with human connection, including how AI assistants can free up HR for high-impact moments.

This episode is packed with practical advice on leadership, navigating HR in the C-Suite, and fostering a culture of change. Share it with a fellow leader who might need these insights.

For more tools, insights, and strategies to lead with clarity and credibility, visit Elizabeth’s website, take the C-Suite Readiness Assessment, and subscribe to Executiveland on  Apple Podcasts and Spotify and so you never miss a new chapter of the unwritten playbook!

To learn more about Deborah Borg, www.iff.com/experts/debora-borg

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• Forbes Column: https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethfreedman/
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hi, and welcome to Executive Land. I'm Elizabeth Friedman, and this is where top leaders go off script to share straight talk and the unwritten playbook about life in the C-Suite. For more ideas, visit East SuiteLeader.com. Now let's dive into today's episode. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Executive Land. This is where we talk about the unwritten playbook of the C-Suite, and we get to have incredible conversations with incredible leaders, including the one you are about to meet today. So I am thrilled to be joined by Deb Borg. First of all, hello and a warm welcome to you, Deb. Hello, Elizabeth. I'm so happy to be here. Well, listen, Deb, we are gonna have a great conversation and let people get to know you. But I'd love to just quickly introduce you to our audience. Because Deb, today you are the EVP. You are also the Chief People and Culture Officer at IFF. And previous to that, really an entire career in senior leadership, HR leadership roles, including at companies like uh Dow, where you oversaw the North American region, um, among other roles. So, Deb, there's probably lots to add and maybe correct me on. So, what did I miss or get wrong? How else should we be um getting to know you?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

No, I think you got it, you got it right. My career has mostly been in HR with a couple of stints in and out of running businesses uh as well, uh, most recently with Dow, as you mentioned, running down North America. Um I'm also on the board of a publicly traded company uh where the HR role is becoming increasingly important on board. So that's been a really interesting kind of uh uh different role for me to take on um in the last couple of years. So uh, but you got the rest of it right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

All right. Well, we're off to a great start. Thank you, Deb. And we want to talk all about that board role too, by the way, even how you landed that role. So um more on that to come. But, you know, Deb, we start off always by saying if this is the unwritten playbook of the C-suite, if there is one, um, what are some of the things that perhaps belong in it, particularly from your vantage point, not just being a C-suite executive yourself, but also wearing your hat of seeing so many leaders sort of within organizations through through HR? What what would you say there?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

In terms of what the the unwritten rules of being in the C-suite are, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

What are we missing there, Deb? What should be in that playbook?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Well, you know, I I think that uh there is a myth around uh being in the C-suite. Um, I think being increasing your roles in senior senior leadership in general um is uh, you know, things change. It's it's kind of the old adage of what got you here won't get you there. It's the things that you have to shed um in order to be successful in the C-suite. Um I think the biggest thing for me is that the C-suite does feel like a lonelier place than any of the other roles I've taken, where you have many more peers around you kind of doing something similar to you. Um, and in the C-suite, often you are the only, right? I'm the only person that's representing human capital um in the C-suite, um, amongst a group of great peers, but uh the you know, the same as the CFO or the CIO, um any of the functional roles, you're the only one. So it can feel a little bit lonelier than maybe some of my previous leadership roles, where you're one of a few, uh maybe representing the same uh constituent or employee interest group in in my case.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Well, and so given that more challenging, I would imagine, to influence to make sure that the work you're representing is well understood and prioritized where it it should be. And so what have you found, Deb? And maybe talk to us about what you have found works well for you and maybe uh some lessons learned.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

What works well, you know, I I you can probably tell from the accent. I grew up in Australia. Um, Australians are pretty direct in their communication style, which works very well in the C-suite, um, is, you know, having a voice and representing the constituent that you represent. Again, in my case, it's the employees. Um, I'd like to say that everybody in the C-suite is a business leader first, and then they bring their functional area of expertise. So I think about the business, I think about it particularly with a human capital lens or the human capital implications of business, um, and look to all of my peers on the C-suite to do the same. Um, what's in service of the business, and then how does IT or finance or whatever your functional area of discipline um kind of contribute to that. Um, and I think C-suites work best when everybody is kind of a business first leader, uh, regardless of their discipline. Um, that's how we look for C-suite uh executives, that's how we try to groom them. Um, and uh it's very, very apparent in any of the roles. So I think that the big thing for me is just uh having an equal voice in the room. I opine on strategy just as much as I do on people issues, um, being very well versed in the financials of the business or in all facets of the business. I'm not the financial expert, uh, but uh a lot of what we do, particularly in the compensation and incentive space, uh, has a lot to do with financials. And so um ensuring that you've got some uh expertise in that space or that you're well versed to be able to have a good conversation around why uh a financial metric might belong or not belong in an incentive plan, for example. Um so I think that that's uh you know, that's another thing, not not being afraid to have an opinion on things that are even outside of your functional area of expertise. Um I find too often uh functional leaders kind of sit back and wait for it's an IT topic, and so now I'll talk, uh talk about it versus this is a business topic, and we if you have an opinion about it, um then you should share that opinion about it. Um so I think that's probably been the biggest thing. And early on in my career when I first stepped into Bungie as the CHRO, um, it took me a little while to find that voice. You know, I would be the one that would sit back and wait for uh, you know, even not to be invited to the conversation necessarily, but was very, very confident and comfortable in bringing up issues of that were very directly employee related or human capital related, um, and not so much necessarily about strategy or financials or what direction we should take our IT strategy. Um, and I feel a lot more confident about that today after 10 years in the CHROC. Uh, but I would say that that's probably been the biggest, uh, the biggest learning or lesson is maybe doing that a little earlier.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Deb. I was talking to uh a first-time CHRO, and I think the struggle that that leader was having in speaking up and weighing in in meetings, having a point of view, owning the point of view. One of the barriers for this leader was I'll describe it as feeling like they have to earn the right to speak up, feeling like they needed to have a level of understanding or knowledge to speak up. And while, of course, right, we all want to be appropriately informed and offer thoughtful perspective. I'm the voice that is often saying to leaders, like, where's the rule that says that you have to be right an expert in finance in order to weigh in on a financial matter to the degree to which your CFO does? No. But I think that's a challenging leap for us is to know, I don't know, how much do I need to really be able to know in order to have actually an important point of view that bears, you know, saying.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what I what I find in in my world, in the HL world, everybody has an opinion, right? Um, there is a subject matter expertise in this space as well that we are the best versed uh to opine on. But everybody knows people, uh, you know, they know communications, which is part of my remit. Uh they know how to communicate, they know people, so therefore they can have an opinion. Um, and uh and I welcome the opinions. Uh, you know, I'm not the the only uh the only person with an opinion on people-related matters, but there is an area of expertise that uh kind of overweighs just uh where judgment might overweigh just um uh what's the word I'm looking for? Um thought or opinion. And I'm the same in the financial space. I have an opinion, I have a thought. Um I there's no such thing as a silly question and being being able to ask that question. Um, but I will defer to the financial experts on expert-related matters, right? Um and no one's gonna invite you necessarily to take the space, right? Um, to have an opinion. So I think it's just incumbent upon everybody in the C-suite to express either a question, an opinion, a concern, uh, where they have it so that you can get to the right answer for the organization.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

You know, it's a good point, though, you raised, Deb. And I don't know if you have found this to be more the case, perhaps, in the CHRO space than in some of the others, where how shall I put this nicely? Like everybody is trying to tell you how to do your job. Um, and uh because again, well, we all understand talent and people, Deb. And um, I don't know if it would be more the case in the CHRO role than others where you might have to navigate that. But am I being fair? Is is that is there some truth there?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

I think you're being fair. I, you know, I do think that the uh increasingly uh the CIO is getting challenged. Everyone's a digital expert, everybody's reading a lot about what's happening in the external world. Uh, but I think in in the space of talent and people, um, we probably do get challenged a little bit more. Um, I think it's more of a team sport, maybe in this role than in other roles. You know, my role is to set the frame, the common language, uh, the discipline around uh around people and talent matters. When we think about something like workforce planning, the businesses have a very, very large role to play in that. But there is an area of discipline or expertise that we bring around how we think about workforce movement, social sentiment. We get a lot of the signals on social sentiment through the HR team, through compliance complaints that might take place, or through uh the context that employees provide us, what you know. So uh there is um there's maybe more contextual uh information that that the HR team has. But I think just like any other discipline, the important part for HR is to have data uh that says, okay, that that is sentiment, and here is what the data is telling us that we ought to, you know, that we ought to do. So um uh again, I do think I think you're right in your assessment that HR probably gets more help than most in uh or more opinions than most. Um but we also can't do the job in HR without kind of the team, the executive team around us. What we're doing is shaping culture. And culture, you can put words on paper, but it is the lived experience of how we act, how we show up, who we're promoting, who we're selecting. Um and so creating those conditions uh is my role. Living those conditions and making them come true is the executive team's role. Um and that was probably a big lesson that we learned. COVID taught us a lot of lessons, um, but a big lesson that we learned through COVID, where the world was very squirrely. Do we bring people back to work, don't we? Um do we vaccinate, don't we? Um, you know, I I think I began that the the early year, the early days in 2020 of feeling like I needed to have the unique point of view on this. This was a, you know, they're they're looking to me for a solution. And the reality is when you're talking about areas of culture, um, you really need to get the whole team behind you, right? Here's how I think about it, but we all think a certain way about it. So let's agree together. Um, and I I I felt my role in that was to create the space um to set a frame and say, here's what we need to talk about as a team. I have an opinion, I'm sure there are others, and create the space for all of the opinions to be heard so that we could come to a uh a conclusion as a team. And oftentimes it was uh oftentimes it was me coming to the conclusion of based on everything I've heard, this is the direction I think we should go. Um, but uh you're you're not in it alone, right? Again, so many of these matters of uh of culture and sentiment are just driven by the collective team, not just one individual. Um, and then there are things that are very much one individual, right? How we uh, you know, how we set incentive plans, uh, there is a a deeper area of expertise in compensation around that. The behaviors we want to drive is something that the whole executive team should be opining on, right? Um that's a collective shared thing in terms of how we steer the company. Um so uh yeah, so uh you learn lessons at all points along the way, uh, but bringing the team um along with you, I think, in the HR role is probably more critical than most, just because you're uh, again, uh shaping culture for an organization. I think that things that have been universally true, um, personal opinion on politics, religion, do not belong in the workplace. That's become increasingly obvious um in the last couple of years. I think workplaces have become divisive as uh, or or communities have become divisive in the macro world and certainly in the internal world. And so I would say that that's even more important today than it was a decade ago, around people are going to have a very binary point of view about things, and it's not for us to opine on a person's individual preferences. Um, the things that belong in the workplace of the culture that you're trying to set for that organization and what needs to be true for that organization. I think we we struggle still with when to speak up as an organization, what's the role of companies versus governments versus uh you know other uh institutions, um, and when we should have a very loud voice on something versus when that's just not our um our problem to solve, right? Um and uh again, you see you we saw a lot of that, whether it was around different political campaigns around the world and employees wanting you to have a point of view about how you stood for certain things, uh, whether it's around uh uh geopolitical conflicts around the world, uh, what the company's position is on that. Um and I think companies have uh and and the people that represent companies have had to be much more thoughtful about what it is that they want to speak publicly about, right? What uh that that that seems to me to be, I don't think it's new. Um I think that's always been the case. I just think the world's a little squirrier today than maybe it was a decade ago. Um, and the the points of view are a lot more binary with your workforce, with external constituents than maybe what they were before. So things that don't, I think that doesn't, that still doesn't belong in the workplace. Um, I think we think about it probably more deeply than we used to um in terms of what to speak about. You have a very loud voice from your internal population that wants you to speak loud and proud about something, about areas um and so that that that compass that you have as an organization that says we will always value equality, we will always value um the rights of every individual. Um, we will always value people to have their their own to bring their whole self to work. And and so how do you let those things shine without making it about what a government is talking about or what a a a different external group might be talking about? Um, I don't think that there's room in the in the workplace uh for uh you know self-centered behaviors. I think it and particularly in the C-suite, you are there to represent an institution, the organization, um, and the long-term view of what's what's in best service of various stakeholders. Um and uh you know that that predicates, you know, I might have a certain feeling about something, but what's in the best service or the best interest of um of the organization. So I think that there's not no room for um you know personal motivations, um, again, particularly in the C-suite. Um and there's no room for egos in the C-suite. I've been very fortunate that I've worked in C-suites that have very, very low egos. Um, and uh, you know, I think that's uh in again, in service of getting to the collective, getting to the what's in the best best interest of all, there's a degree of humility and a degree of selflessness, I think. Um it's not about is this, you know, I want an investment in HR. Is that the best decision for the organization? You have to put your own kind of functional interests aside for the greater good. Um, and I think when egos get in the way, that can, and it doesn't mean that egos don't turn up every now and again, but I don't think there's place for them in the workplace today.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I'd love your thoughts on this. I was just talking to the CEO of a company in the defense and aerospace industry, different industry, of course, but he talked about how for the first time his organization has a C-level continuous improvement executive on the team. And we were discussing how future state we may have more leaders around the table who are less function or role specific and more you lead change, you lead continuous improvement, because that's really what we need. Um, but I, you know, I'd be that maybe more of a radical view. And I I'd be curious how you see that, Deb, because I think we still see, you know, how do we get people to change faster? How do we get people to embrace uh a level of speed that doesn't exhaust everybody but gets us to where we are expected to go?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, I think what I experience is more than ever, you need leaders, whether they they're in the C-suite or a level down, uh two levels down, that can get that can think much more systematically, right? We we have a box and the box is HR, but you can't get done in HR without a partnership across many, many different facets of the organization. It's much more of a team sport than an individual sport. Uh I think it always has been, but I do think that that's amplified because when you start thinking about things like the digital impact of the workforce, I've never been closer to my CIO than I am, I have been in the last 12 months, right? I've had a tremendous respect for that seat, um, but they felt a little bit more separate, right? IT does IT and HR does HR. And today you can't think about workforce implications without thinking about digital and how it's going to impact the workforce. You can't uh so there's many more of these um interconnectedness, maybe. Um so I think organizations that like the one you referenced that are getting it right are saying, how do we break up with the confines of we've always had a CIO to we need somebody to worry about continuous improvement. And that's going to be multifaceted. There's going to be people components of continuous improvement, there's going to be IT components, there's going to be process components. Um, and creating these systems thinkers, I think, is uh, or people that can think for the ecosystem and at least understand that there are interdependencies is what we need to work on for leadership development a level down, right? Um are you creating the conditions? Are you rewarding that? Are you giving people space and time to look externally and see what's coming and have a view of the external world and bring that in and say, okay, well, what would need to be true then? You know, what conditions do we need to create in the organization for people to have the capacity to adapt to change, for things to not feel like they're changing all the time, right? I think there's a lot of change fatigue in the world at large and in organizations for sure. That takes an inspirational communications, um, which I think is more at a premium today than it ever has been in terms of what you need in leadership today. It's I need you to see a path. I need you to excite people about the path. I need you to be able to put a container around um breaking that path into bite-sized pieces that we can kind of see to the other side of. So it doesn't feel like this big macro, everything's changing and uh feel overwhelming for organizations. Um and I need you to be able to connect the dots and and be able to think for the enterprise, again, for the the the ecosystem that makes up an enterprise. Um, and I think that their qualities as as well as uh to your first comment, maybe curiosity is the big thing that comes to mind. Do you have curious enough leaders in the in the C-suite that are open-minded to changes that are happening around them and curious about how you might be able to apply that or not apply that to the place that you're in, right? Um so um I think that that there's a more of a premium on curiosity today than maybe there ever ever has been. Um, and bringing that curiosity in and saying, okay, well, if that's if that could be true, then, or if that's happening in this other industry, then how do we think about it for our own industry, right? And finding finding patterns or pattern recognition, which I think is one of the uh most important things in any one of our senior leaders is some degree of pattern recognition. Um, and saying, you know, I I can maybe pr predict the different things that need to be true for that in that puzzle. I don't have all of the expertise, but I know I need to bring different sets of expertise together and maybe a diverse uh team of people together to be able to see what new patterns might get created. And to do that, you're looking at uh again, other industries or other functions or how other, you know, how governments do things. It's it you're not looking at just how do other specialty materials companies do things.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Tell me what you've seen works best and maybe what doesn't when we think about helping our employees produce those kinds of results.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

I think it starts with some version of goal setting, right? Um, and uh you know, are are we clear on what the company's objectives are for the year? What do we need to get done for the year? Um and then how do you break that up into some bite-sized pieces on what can you accomplish through the year to have impact against that? So I think it starts with kind of a longer range view on where you want the company to be, and then how do you break that up into some goals? The the repetition, I think more important than ever is super important. Um, repetition on a couple of key things. You know, people organizations can only absorb so much. And in a very large organization, ours is 22,000 employees. There are there are others that are much larger than ours, of course, and others that are smaller. But the larger an organization gets, the more that people will uh, you know, create their own uh create their own conditions. I you I can't possibly know what's happening seven levels below me, right? So it's the clarity for me and the HR leadership team, first with the executive team. Here's what we think how we think HR is going to create impact for the business this year. How do we translate that back? That how do I translate that down for my team to say, okay, so within this, then what are the two, three things we're gonna do exceptionally well? Um and I think that one of the, you know, the biggest things that I see is you need to leave space for the day-to-day. Things will happen that you're not anticipating. Um, and so let's not have 27 lofty objectives that we need to get done because stopping some of those objectives midstream can be just as complicated as starting them. Um you're you're you know trickling down to many, many people in the organization. And so I think clarity, I think consistency of here are the two, three things that really matter to us. Um, and uh and then of course you've got to trust that your leaders can translate that for an employee, as I do for my employees, to here's the role that you play to impact that. Um so I think it's the the couple of couple of key goals and an organization being very clear on that, um, aligned to, you know, kind of a long range, long-range plan, um, and then repetition consistency I find to be super important. And again, particularly because things change rather dramatically. And and what I what we've experienced, I think, certainly in the last maybe five years, is we didn't expect that curveball. Now we've got a different trade dynamic with the so the business has to kind of pivot fairly quickly. And a business is made up of a whole lot of people across a whole lot of different functions, and everybody has to start moving in a different direction, right? So if you have too many big, lofty things that uh that are in play and in motion, I think it's just harder to slow them down.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Oh my God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

So focus on the few, uh, you know, get it down to a tangible level and uh just repeat it. You know, what we we reset our um operating model here at IFF, and we did the same thing at Bungi uh when I was there a number of years ago, and just the clarity and the consistency of these are the only four things that matter. Now, we we say something like customer focus is one of our four themes, for example. It gets translated in slightly different ways across the different business units, across the different functional groups, but pick one thing that's gonna move the needle on customer focus and only one thing. Um, and uh, or operational excellence. What's one thing that's gonna move the needle on operational excellence? Um, but just having the frame of we always talk about customer focus year on year on year. Um, and that one thing underneath it might shift year on year, but the the frame of customer focus remaining important, I think becomes equally important to orient an organization to it's not a dramatic shift, right? It's we still care about customer focus, we always have it's just this is the priority, this is where we're gonna make impact in customer focus for this year. Um, so I think that consistency is helpful for an organization. Yeah, it doesn't feel like you're changing um all of the time, right? And customer focus when now all of a sudden I can't get product delivered to a customer because of a snowstorm, because of a geopolitical issue, because of whatever, will shift the priority underneath a little bit, or maybe um, but it's all in service of customer focus, right? So I find that that's that's helpful uh for organizations and oftentimes easier said than done because we're all ambitious and we all want to accomplish a whole lot of things, and uh there's never a shortage of things to focus on to move the move the ball forward. Um, you know, I I I we found it at IFF particularly the constant need for reprioritization is super important, right? Like we thought these four things were important. Where are we? Are they still as important as what they used to be? Um and uh and it's amazing how things can shift just quarter on quarter, right? Like that was really important, but now we either need to shift capital to a different direction, or again, uh, you know, we're we're facing headwinds that we didn't experience we didn't expect. So your ability to pivot, um, which is why just few of those priorities becomes important because then reprioritizing them is uh is a little bit easier, um is is super important. And and know knowing that, you know, individuals are going to also have their own view of within their space, they're empowered to see what needs to happen within their space. They're gonna come up with their own, like this is my improvement. So when I think of what we set at the HR leadership team, for example, if we have 27 things and they're also trying to do their own 27 things um in every level of the organization, that's a lot of things, right? So focusing them on a few things at the top of the house to say these are the things that we need you to move the ball forward on gives them space to then also say, well, here it's really important for me to move the ball forward on this and not feel overwhelmed with priorities.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah. But oof, I gotta tell you, Deb, when you talked about reprioritization, I had an internal moment because I, you know, we know that that of course happens all the time, but that's tough inside companies. We're all marching in a direction, we're focused on something. Company says, even for reasons that may make a lot of sense, we're not focusing on that anymore. We have to focus here. And we all know how that goes. People get up in arms, and what are you talking about? And you've all told us to do X and now we have to do Y. And so, wow, is that tough? And it's tough on both sides. Um, you know, because certainly both both perspectives can be true. But, you know, what have you found there? And maybe what I'm asking about is just helping people navigate that change. But I do have to say, Deb, I think the constant, no, we're not gonna do this. Yes, we are gonna do this. Certainly not the case in every organization, but that causes real frustration, certainly, that I've seen.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, and I don't know that we've got this mastered in any uh in any way. I I do think that what is it's equally important to talk about what you're going to stop to do, stop doing. So I think that's the part that we forget. Oh my God, say that again, Deb.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Say that to the people in the back. What we are going to stop doing. I'm so glad you said that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah. I mean, I think we focus a lot on, okay, we've got to go left now. We were going this way, now we've got to go left, but we forgot to say stop going right. Um and it's equally important to say these two things have to stop in service of us doing this one thing. It's really hard in big companies because there are so many things, right? And so, so um uh, you know, it it does become harder. In smaller companies, I think it's a little bit easier where um you've you've you know you've got a small collection of leaders that really have their hands on most of the organization, it's probably a little bit easier. Um, or if you're a one-product company uh versus a multi-product company, you know, so there are going to be some some things that make it a little bit easier than others, but being really explicit about we we need to stop this or we need to do this. So anything that's not in service of this, you need to stop and you have permission to stop. And then giving the organization permission. Um sometimes it's langu, like language, I think um at one of my peers at HSBC actually um really opened my eyes to some very intentional language that they've put in place in their organization. One of them, and I'm I I I could uh it's directionally correct, but don't quote me, um, is a strategic pause. So they've given the organization language to say, um, time out. I don't, I think we need a strategic pause. So one, it's it's again, language that's been inbuilt in their organization that gives them permission to say, I either I don't understand where I'm go where we're going, or I think we're off track with where we thought we were going. Um so so these building these rituals in large companies, I think can be really, really helpful, right? So uh, you know, we try to do things like um uh one clarity of who the decision maker is up front, right? We need this to get done. Here's the accountable person, here's the decision maker. We have we're a very collaborative organization at IFF, and I think people confuse collaboration with everybody needs to agree. Um and so that slows us down. Oh, you know, was one of my observations when I first joined was that can really slow us down because now we've we're we're circling and circling and circling because not everybody agrees. Well, at the end of the day, there's got to be one decision maker that can move this forward and the and announcing that up front and saying, you're we want to brainstorm, we want your ideas, but don't be confused, Elizabeth is gonna be the one that makes the final decision on this, and she'll call it when she's ready to call it. So that has been helpful uh for us. Um, you know, we try to start with the headline. Uh so um, you know, even in emails, right? What are you trying to say? Like what is what is the um you know, the uh the crux of the message? Like, I need five million dollars in investment. Now explain why, right? Um so trying to get to the bottom line up front. Um uh so again, a few rituals like that that I think can help an organization and certainly help an organization like ours that is very uh, you know, we've got four very different business units. We don't run like a holding company, uh, but those four business units are empowered. They have their end-to-end model. Um, and then you have corporate functions like mine that support them all. So we support employees at a country level, regardless of which business they they sit in. And that can create a lot of consternation for our team on in the field that is like, well, this business wants to go left and this one wants to go right, and this one's hiring, and this one's firing, and this one's, you know, they're all doing kind of slightly different things. Um, and uh they can't all afford to have their own HR teams sitting in every country that they're in. So hence we serve them from from uh from the center. So some of these rituals or the language, things like strategic pause, give this commonality to the organization to say, okay, right, she's she's called the strategic pause. We need to regroup. Um, so I think things like that can be really, really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Oh, I think that's huge, Deb. And, you know, I think also just how do we set expectations up front? Even very simple things. This might change. Hey, everybody, you know, and I think we can overcommunicate things like that. But I think what this also reminds me of is I think your earlier comments related to inspiration. And I'll tell you, Deb, I have a lot to say about I think the importance of inspiration in organizations, that it is actually a technical capability. It is a skill like any other skill that we expect senior leaders to adopt and learn. And, you know, one of the things that I have found interesting is what inspires leaders. Because to your point, if we're going to say, hey, we're gonna stop doing this and start doing this, and here's why, so that is well understood. And so people are willing to still stay with you on that journey versus throw up their hands and say, oh God, this is what always happens here, and that sort of frustrated feeling that can come up. I think it's really being able to develop that skill. And I I just come back to that because I think, you know, one of the things I noticed about what actually inspires leaders has surprised me. And so curious if you found this, Deb, because I would have thought, and I think we are often taught it's about having a clear purpose and having a mission and a vision. And of course, that's not unimportant. But in the research, what I see is that what actually inspires leaders are having challenging goals, winning, being underestimated, which I think is interesting. This idea of, oh, you don't think I can do it? I'll show you. And so this idea of leaders understanding what actually motivates and inspires an organization and then being able to meet them in that moment, I think is really important. But curious if you would add anything to our inspiration list, Deb. I mean, does that resonate with you? Is that has that been your experience?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have uh uh uh picked one of the comments that you said um on uh uh yeah, so certainly winning, very inspirational. I think knowing where we're going, inspirational. Um I think people I think people confuse inspiration for the cheerleader, right? Like, oh, this person. Exactly. Um and you know, I think inspiration is clarity, is you know, um, okay, this we're not losing pace and time, not not knowing what this leader is thinking, right? Um and uh inspiration comes from storytelling, inspiration comes from uh a number of different areas. We don't ask our leaders to um, you know, uh we don't focus as much on uh I I I'll say um executive presence is not the word I'm looking for. There is something about the way you deliver a message that is great. I think it's meeting people where they are, right? I think it's meeting it's not it's not about finding the cheerleader. It's about saying, we're clear about where we're going, we're setting inspiring goals and challenging goals, we're giving you some space and empowerment to be able to do it yourself. Um, but this this consistency of message, I think, also creates some inspiration, right? Like that I can predict, I just I I I it's not a change of direction all of the time. So even when something changes, you're anchoring it to the same direction, right? We're still going here. Instead of this particular, again, the customer focus example, instead of this thing, now this is more important for customer focus, right? Um describing the why can be quite inspirational for people, but you know, people are smart, they want to be able to connect the dots. Um, it's one of the hard things in the C-suite is there's a lot of things that you hear and a lot of context that you have that can't be shared. And you know, knowing what you can share and what you can't share, and sharing enough that smart people around you, then with the same intelligence, can form their own conclusions and see where they might take it to what can't you share? Because um, you know, and and I do think that sometimes we shelter our organizations. Maybe I see leaders trying to shelter their organizations a little bit too much. Like I don't want to spook them. And no, it's not about saying, you know, uh, it's look, we we're we're we're worried about uh not knowing the impact to this and how that might have an effect on our budget. We you know the company's in really, really sound shape, but we need to be prepared for the worst is a great way to deliver that same message that then gets people to kind of think about, well, what do I adjust then? You know, I get now why I need to save money, right? Uh, it's not because the sky is falling, it's because we're just trying to build some insurance uh for what we don't know. Um, or we're trying to invest in areas of high growth for the longevity of the organization. And that means that HR's not going to get the investment in this this year. Um, so it's, you know, if you just deliver the second part of that message, it's not very inspirational. It's like you're cutting, you know, you're hamstringing us and we're not investing in all the cool, sexy things. Um, but it's the company's investing in really cool, sexy things. Um, and we're part of this great company. Um, and so I think that again, it's the it's sometimes it's sometimes articulating the paradox of choices that we make, right? Um, that can be just as inspirational, right? Um it's it's so much better than hearing the no and only hearing the no, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yes, yes. But you know, I think it's it's another great point you raise. And that, you know, is why inspiration can be counterintuitive. Um, we think it's always about sharing good news. No, I mean it's defined as right, we're breathing life and action into an organization. And so that clarity, that transparency, candor, doesn't have to be all, you know, happy, happy times. Um but talking to people like grown-ups versus sort of a paternalistic, oh, you know, hey kids, everything's okay, pat you on the head. None of that inspires people. And so I love the way that you're you're giving some guidance here. And now you're getting me a bit on a rant, Deb, because I'm a huge believer in this is the kind of way that we can measure and help our organizations versus maybe engagement, which I think is useful, but maybe uh inspiration gives us a different lens and insight into how do we help drive action and create some forward movement. So, you know, I'm also curious, and Deb, I, you know, I know before we wrap up, you are not only uh, I think, an executive in HR and have a lot to say there, but you sit on a board. And I know some of our listeners, they really want to understand, first of all, why are more HR leaders with expertise like yours being sought out for boards? And like, can we just give us a little behind the scenes of how do you get on a board? Because I think this is this is sort of mysterious for people too.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah. Um, and I I think there are still fewer CHROs on boards than they should be. Um, one of the biggest dimensions in any workforce is or any company, I should say, is the workforce, right? It's the are your people moving in that direction? And I think it kind of goes back to maybe even how HR people see themselves of experts in that space. We have an expertise in uh in human psychology, we have an expertise in uh, you know, workforce movement, in social sentiment and what that might do. Um, and then of course, there's programs we create uh for whether it's recruiting, developing, compensating people that kind of ignite what a company's trying to do. So I so I think that some more enlightened companies that have CHROs on their board are kind of seeing that connection. Also, you know, I think in the CHRO seat, like we again we talked about before, you do see the company as an ecosystem of things. There needs to be a number of dots connected in order for things to move forward. It's not just about continuous improvement from a process perspective. It's about do you have the right skills and capabilities for continuous improvement? Do you have the right processes, the infrastructure that needs to exist, the right IT systems, um, et cetera? And I think in the HR chair, admittedly, you have a bird's eye view to that, uh, maybe more than most do because of the dimension that we're in. Um so I think that ecosystem thinking that maybe comes in that chair is a very valid um uh capability on uh on boards today. I uh how do you get on a board? I still think it's who you know that gets you on boards, um, particularly from this seat. I don't think the title alone is what a lot of people will seek versus a CEO or a sitting CFO where there are there are uh necessary skills on a company, public company board, um, that are validated externally, that are required externally, like, you know, financial expertise in order to sign off the books. Um I think every the every other discipline, therefore, is you know, what does the company need? And and that's the judgment of the people in the boardroom in terms of what the company needs, what skills the company needs around it in order to be successful. Um, I got on the board that I'm on uh through a colleague that I used to work with at Dow, um, who we and we hadn't worked together for, gosh, probably 20 years. And a phone call came and he said, Deb, uh, what are you doing these days? Are you interested in being on a board? Um, because I'm on a board that I think could really use you. Um, and which was very um, I felt very good about that, obviously. Um, and uh and so I I do think that there's still, and I see it in in the IFF boardroom as well, the first place that companies will typically Go is to their own directors to say, okay, we've got, we want to add somebody to the board. Who do we know collectively? Yes. So it is a little bit of a who you know. There are certainly recruiting agencies that are out there as well looking for people to be placed on boards. But I think, particularly from this seat, I do think there is a an extra degree of explanation to a board on if this is what we're looking for, that this is why I think this person brings that. It's your view, and you're really driving the strategic direction. You're representing shareholders at the board in the boardroom. But you're, you know, I think the title can be misleading. I think people can maybe read that title as if I've only got one seat on a board, am I going to put a HR person on or a CFO on? And so I think it does take maybe a little bit of trust from the people that are representing you to say, this is what I think this person brings. They've got a strategic mindset. They get the dynamics of the workforce that we're working in. In my case, I've worked internationally, I've worked in specialty industrial companies for most of my career. So there were a lot of parallels from the industry experience, from the international experience, and certainly from some uh, you know, some things that this this company is facing around just uh shifting workforces and um and uh that uh that my my colleague, uh my now my board director colleague felt were salient experiences that the company needed. So um yeah, who I I I think the who you know matters um matters a lot, I think, for for anybody getting on a board, but I do think that it's been really instrumental for me to get on a board.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

And you know, Deb, it goes back to what we've been saying all along, you know, given the world that we're in today, how can you possibly, I think, be as good as you could be without all the best minds around the table? And, you know, even just hearing you it, um sitting here feeling surprised that more boards just don't, just almost by rote, you know, deliberately seek out someone with that type of expertise because it's just so valuable, right? And needed now. Um, well, so Deb, before we wrap up, tell us what's ahead for you. You're on a board, you yourself, I know, I mean, just leading HR, you're an experienced coach and voice in this work. So, what's next for you?

SPEAKER_01 46:21

I am super excited um about the work we're doing at IFF. Uh, we've been transforming the company. Um, there's a lot of really important culture work to continue doing for the organization. So I'm very excited about that. I'm also very excited about, you know, for the first time in many, many years, there's a really big tectonic shift um in how digital work is kind of coming into play and augmenting that with human work. Um, and uh so I think the voice of the CHRO, more important than ever, in thinking about well, how how do those two universes uh live together? What how do we support our organizations and the employee base to be curious and upskill and uh be ready for technology shifts that are coming? Um and how might it really create a business advantage for us in certain areas where, you know, uh through productivity, through different business models, um, you know, through uh I like to use the example with our executive team. When we got Blackberries, uh we didn't reduce the size of the workforce necessarily. People found, you know, they were more productive, they were able to do emails on the fly, um, and they used the the spare time that they had for other more value-creating things that they decided were more value creating. And I think this is where the evolution of uh the tectonic shift that we're at at the moment is. Then there are really some intentional or deliberate moments where you say, uh, you know, I we have a hard time in our service model with within HR. We just can't be everywhere for all people. Um, and so what's the role of technology to help bridge some of that, right? How do we get query management? Um, you know, how do I help a manager just understand how to put somebody on a leave of absence? Um, that's typically been somebody call somebody in HR and they'll help you. And now, guess what? Joy, who's our uh first digital assistant, um, can help you. Uh, you don't need a HR person to help you. So we call her Joy. Our company's tagline is that we make joy. Um, and so Joy's been very helpful in just transactional things. Like I just have a question to ask, and and quite frankly, moments where I don't care if it's a human, I just need the answer, right? Um, the things that matter in the in the human experience are I want to support this person who's on leave, or I'm really concerned about them when they're on leave. Well, then we want you to call the HR person. Joy's not good at that. Joy's good at telling you that the policy says do this, and then you press these three buttons in work day and you can you can put the person on leave. Right, right. Uh so we've got more uh free capacity for the humans to have the real moment that matter conversation, right? Like, how do we support you and the team around what's happening? Like, why is your why is this employee off sick? Why do they need a leave of absence? Um, that's the human, the human part. So I'm excited for how we keep ideating that in the organization, the curiosity of just, you know, I'm very, very curious myself in learning more about the technology and where it can liberate me as an executive and let me spend more time on the high value impact moments. Um, so that's what I'm excited about. I'm excited about the board, and I'm excited about continuing to travel and see the world.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Oh, I love it. I love it. Well, Deb, listen, you're gonna kind of crack the code for us, I think, on some of this where we're digital and and the rest of us uh collide, and you're gonna come back and tell us what you've learned. All right. So that's our next conversation. But Deb, so great to have you with us. Thank you for the gems, for the insights. And uh, I think we just got so much out of it today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Always a pleasure. Thank you so much, Elizabeth, and thanks for what you do um every day to bring human stories to life. So thank you. I listened to you to the podcast and I love it.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yay, thank you, Deb. Well, that's all for today in Executive Land. Thanks for listening. And if you're looking for more, check out my website, eSuiteLeader.com, where you'll see all kinds of free resources and take the free executive readiness assessment. It shows you exactly where you're strong and where to focus next in your own leadership. And don't forget, subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode. I'll see you next time in Executive Plan.