Donor Moms & Dads
This podcast explores the experiences of past egg and sperm donors. The host is Shaun Murphy-Lopez, who is a donor dad. He was known as Donor ID #1407 by Croygenic Laboratories in Roseville, MN, now owned by Fairfax Cryobank: https://fairfaxcryobank.com/
Donor Moms & Dads
Emily from New Jersey
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
I met Emily on the private Donor Conceived Discussion Group on Facebook, which may be of interest to everyone in the donor community.
For those who would like to visit Emily's therapy website, you can go to https://www.emilyderricktherapy.com/.
Credit for background music goes to Dye O (and to my husband for picking out the song): https://music.youtube.com/channel/UCVMwu8OTZGR-NgRPdW9YcBg
Welcome to Donor Moms and Dads, a podcast that explores the world of egg and sperm donors who gave life to donor-conceived people. My name is Sean Murphy Lopez, and I'm the host of Donor Moms and Dads. In 1999, I walked into a sperm bank and made my first donation. Two decades later, my 20-year-old biological son reached out to meet me. What does it mean to be the father of a child you helped create, but may have had no contact with until years later? In this podcast, we'll learn about everyday people who made an incredible choice in their younger adult years and are now navigating unprecedented modern relationships. Welcome to Donor Moms and Dads. What are the needs of donor moms and dads? Through her past work at a fertility clinic, her volunteer efforts with the Donor Conceived Council, and her current career as a therapist, Emily is intimately aware of the needs of recipient parents and donor-conceived people. But as a six-time egg donor herself, Emily has recently begun to explore her own needs. Emily, thank you for being the first egg donor to share your story on this podcast.
SPEAKER_03My name is Emily Derrick. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist with a specialty in fertility. I am was born and raised in California, moved to New Jersey last year. I'm 40.
SPEAKER_00So tell me the story of how you became an egg donor.
SPEAKER_03Back in 2008, I was a senior in college, living away from home, and I was looking for a job on Craigslist, as one did at the time. And I saw an ad for egg donation that was posted by a fertility clinic in San Francisco who had an in-house donor program. It just stopped me in my tracks thinking, like I hadn't even considered doing this. Obviously, I knew that sperm donation was a thing, but never really considered doing it as an egg donor. I thought about it. I called my mom and floated the idea past her. And what I really held on to from her was that if you're going to do it, just make sure you're not doing it for the money. And I said, like light bulb just totally went off. Like, I wouldn't be doing it. Like the money's great. I was looking for a job. Money was a factor, but that was not the reason why I wanted to commit to doing it. I was thinking, what a beautiful thing to do for someone else. One thing that I really do remember is as part of the advertisement, the probably the footer of it was a bunch of like yellow sunflowers with a baby. For some reason, that really stuck out to me. Like, ugh, I would love to give that to someone. I'm sure there was some kind of online application. I remember the name of the person who was my point of contact because she had a really interesting name. So she walked me through everything that I needed to do. I lived in the Bay Area at the time, so this was like a somewhat local clinic. Um, I know that I went in for a medical screening. I remember going in for that cycle and I think it was in person, signing like a legal document, which I think looking back now, seems more akin to what sperm donors do. Like I am donating my eggs to the fertility clinic, and then the clinic then sells those eggs to a person, or in this case it was a couple. So that was the only egg donation that I did not have a contract directly with the recipient parents. I did go in and do a psych screen in person. I did, it was probably the PAI on a computer, personality assessment inventory. So that's one of the two big uh psych screening tools that is kind of the golden standard of what to use to screen donors to make sure that they're a good fit for a donation. That donation is in their best interest as well. I think that's all I really remember from the screening process. Like obviously, did blood work, did a vaginal ultrasound. I don't remember the interview. I'm sure there was an interview. I just don't remember it. I was told that it was going to be anonymous. The clinic I worked with had some kind of probably paper form in a file where I had to check off if I wanted to know the results of the transfer, and I said yes. And I'm assuming the recipient parents had to do the same. And there's more of a story around the results from that cycle. This was what would be, I guess, referred to as a matched cycle. I was donated to a couple. I told them I wanted to know the results. I had my retrieval however long after it was a fresh cycle. So this was before it was kind of like a standard process to freeze all eggs or embryos. Um, so they had a fresh transfer. It was not successful. That was the call that I got. I thought it was a done deal. I was told that they were going to do a frozen embryo transfer. A few months later, I received a phone call that said that they were pregnant. So that was the narrative. That's what I was holding on to. After that cycle, I wanted to donate again. They told me before I even asked them that I was not a good candidate to donate again because um I was difficult to stimulate. I had a lot of follicles. I think that cycle was 24A, but they didn't all mature very well. It's like the high quantity, lower quality. They didn't all mature around the same time. So the yield was not as good. I had to stimulate a couple extra days. So they did not recommend me to donate again.
SPEAKER_00I don't understand the process for egg retrieval. And I've heard that it's an invasive. I've heard people will compare sperm donors to egg donors and say, you know, it's so different. Can you share a little bit about what was so different about that process or what the process is like for a woman when she's going through egg donation?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so once you get approved, after you're approved at some point, um, the fertility clinics will typically have you start birth control pills so that that helps regulate your cycle. Usually with the next cycle, they have you call on day three of your period, and that's when they put together your official calendar for medication. I believe I did two different injectable hormone medications. I did actually go in person to the clinic and they had like an injection teaching class. There was also women going through IVF in that class, which was would have been more awkward, but it was like a big enough room and we weren't like super close to each other. You're doing injections like around your belly button. I think it was about two, two to three weeks of injections. And then all along the way, you're having vaginal ultrasounds with an ultrasound wand, so they can track the progress of the follicles. They measure the size of them. And when the biggest one gets to be a certain diameter, so like eight millimeters, ten millimeters, they will let you know it's time to do the trigger shot, which would like tell your body it's time to like release the eggs from the follicles. Um, and then like two days later, you go in for your retrieval. They also have you do blood work at least once or twice through throughout that process. So you're going to the fertility clinic, or if you're not local to the clinic, you're going to a monitoring center or going to a lab to have your blood levels tested, hormone levels tested in your blood. The retrieval is under anesthesia. It's typically about 30 minutes. What they do is they aspirate the eggs from the follicles with a, I think it's like a long needle, that is inserted through the vaginal wall into where the eggs are in your ovaries, and then they suck them out.
SPEAKER_00And you said they got 24. Is that what you Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Does any of the process hurt, or does a lot of the process hurt?
SPEAKER_03One of the things I remember from that first cycle is that during one of the ultrasounds, which is not typically too painful, the male doctor kind of like slipped on the ultrasound with the ultrasound wand and it like punched me in the ovary. So I felt like I had like an internal bruise for a little bit. Usually the ultrasounds are not painful. The injections are not fun. At that point, I was like 20-ish and had not been pregnant. So I did not know how to equate that to what being pregnant felt like. But I looking back now that I've had a couple kids, it feels like for me, it felt like I was about four months pregnant, just like so so bloated, cramping, uncomfortable. The retrieval, you don't feel anything because you're under anesthesia. For all of my cycles, I happened to be a super producer of angst. I probably had OHSS, ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, at least a couple times. No one actually ever diagnosed me with it. That is like your ovaries were too stimulated and they might swell up, fill it with fluid. It can be really, really uncomfortable. What I hear, especially in the fertility work I do with IVF patients, is they might be kind of uncomfortable that day, the next day, but they're they might be at work the next day. I definitely had taken at least three or four days off after each retrieval because I know that the recovery was more difficult for me.
SPEAKER_00Were you able to talk to your mom about this?
SPEAKER_03Did you have her support through that process of Yeah, I don't think I ever actually spoke to my dad. I did talk to my mom. I talked to my brother. My mom definitely had this sense of like, well, these are gonna be my grandkids, right? I'm sure she doesn't think about it often. If she did, she would bring it up. If I have an update or if I am seeing any of my biological children and I mentioned it to her, I think it kind of like triggers that for her. Like, oh, I I guess I do have biological children that I just don't know and might not ever know. She was supportive. She thought it was a very nice thing for me to do. Obviously, she saw how it was helpful with finances with school.
SPEAKER_00Do you feel like they compensated you fairly? Um, they I mean, when I did it in the year 2000, they paid me $40 every time I went in. Much different for a guy, obviously. They probably asked you not to have sex or masturbate for a certain period of time. That's pretty much the only restriction on guys that I'm hearing of and that I'm aware of.
SPEAKER_03Obviously, there were restrictions around sex and orgasm for myself and other donors as well, which I think that I did have a boyfriend for all six of my donations. I had one boyfriend with the first one, and then my now husband was my boyfriend through the next five donations. So there is obviously also an impact on partners during that process. But your question was, was I compensated fairly? For the what I'll call quote unquote work of the donation, like going to all the appointments and taking time off of work, not that I look at that as a financial loss, but that you know, it's the time and the energy, the injections, the retrieval, the recovery. I have never looked at that as unfair. The first cycle, um, I think the first cycle was $6,500. And with the second clinic that I donated with, the next five cycles were all with the same clinic. It was a different clinic somewhere else in California. Their first cycle compensation was $7,000, I think is what I was compensated. And they generally would go up $500 from there per subsequent cycle, which was industry standard. By the time I did my second through fifth cycle, I was working at an egg donation agency. So like I knew that this was kind of standard protocol. And then I also knew from working at an agency that you can just request what compensation feels right for you. I don't remember the compensation for all the cycles, but at least the last two I requested $10,000, which was at the time the industry max. I the last cycle I did not want to do, which saying that out loud feels like I was coerced. I did not tell them I would like to sign up to do a six cycle. They let me know that a previous recipient like ran out of embryos and they wanted to do another cycle with me and was wondering if I was open to that. That cycle, I did request $10,000. That was also a split cycle with another couple. So they only had to pay half of that, which felt better. So it feels better kind of knowing that you can make a request of how much you would like to be compensated. So it feels a little bit more like you're in control and a little bit less like you're being manipulated. I was looking for a job on Craigslist again after I had moved home and sought a job for an egg donation and surrogacy agency. Um, and I thought, well, wow, I have an undergrad degree in psychology and I've been a donor, so I know the process. This sounds like a really cool job. So I signed up working for them. I was a case manager, and through supporting potential recipient parents through the egg donation process, um, you know, alongside their donor, guiding their donor through all of the appointments and travel and everything. My heart just really felt for these people.
SPEAKER_00So, how old were you when you made your second donation?
SPEAKER_03The second donation was in 2011.
SPEAKER_00You were still basically in your five mid-20s, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And at that point, are you dating your um now husband?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And did did you have a conversation with him about it? What was that?
SPEAKER_03I've always been very open with this. That was always my fun fact. That was something that I disclosed to him on our first date. His thought process was like, You have no legal obligation to these kids, right? They're not your kids. Yeah, like, not my responsibility. I'm not gonna have any future legal obligations, like, no big deal.
SPEAKER_00So then you okay, you're dating him, and then you decide to donate again. And I'm assuming that was another conversation with him about whether or not you should do it.
SPEAKER_03It was it was probably more conversations. It was like, hey, I'm thinking about this. Like, I, you know, like I had a client that was a recipient, and uh loved usually you end up working with the woman as a point of contact. Um so like I loved this woman, she was super great, the donor was great, I thought they were a good fit, didn't get pregnant. Find out later she had a frozen and brew transfer, didn't get pregnant, and it just is like crushing for me. Like I feel so deeply for these people and want to help and support them. So I'm sure I had conversations like that, like, oh, had another client that I really loved, and then they didn't get pregnant, and it's so sad. Like I feel really compelled to do more and help more.
SPEAKER_00So you make six donations.
SPEAKER_03Cycle two was in 2011, cycle three, four, and five was 2012.
SPEAKER_00So you hadn't had any kids of your own, you hadn't become pregnant by this. So you completed all your egg donations, and then your pregnancies came later.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And then after my pregnancies, I did, um I was a gestational carrier one time.
SPEAKER_00Did you find out that people got pregnant from those donations?
SPEAKER_03So the clinic I donated with was a small clinic. The nurse coordinator was super nice and she was very involved with all parties, and she was always happy to share that information. So I'm sure that she probably had permission to do so. I don't know when I typed this form out, but I wrote that for cycle two there were twins. Now don't know if that's accurate. Um, cycle three is twins, that's confirmed. I have I know that family. Four, I wrote singleton and cycle five is twins, I have met them as well.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So how many kids do you know total that uh are alive because of your donations?
SPEAKER_03So I have met two sets of twins. I feel pretty confident that there are at least three more, but I would say roughly between six and eight.
SPEAKER_00You've met four, there could be up to eight, is what you're thinking.
SPEAKER_03That's general estimates.
SPEAKER_00How did you end up meeting the first set of twins? I'm assuming you met one set of twins first. How did you end up meeting them?
SPEAKER_03So um that couple wanted to meet me before we were matched. So they asked the fertility clinic if I was open to meet. I said yes. Um, like the day before, I had already set up a meeting with another couple. So they're like, well, while you're here meeting this one couple, would you like to meet a second couple? They're really nice. I really like them. And I said, Absolutely. The first couple, the woman, she was not ready for egg donation. She grilled me. It was there was no emotional connection. It was, what was your GPA? And where did you go to college and what are you interested in? And and tell me more about this. And it was very clinical. So that it didn't feel right. They left the room first, and then the nurse coordinator peeked her head in and she's like, How'd it go? And I just shook my head. No, she goes, Yeah, I don't I didn't think that was gonna be a good fit for you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so it's kind of for you too, so that you get to interview them and see if you think they're a good fit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I didn't think about it from that perspective when I went into it. It was like, oh, they would like to meet me. Sure, I would oblige them. And then when I met them, I'm like, I don't really like this woman. And then the husband just like sat quietly in the corner, like this is the wife's thing. So yeah, that was an immediate no. Then I was walked to a different room where the other couple was, and two man couple, uh, they were both dressed very smart and like set up straight, and they were just warm and friendly, and it was like a getting to know you conversation. It felt so much less sterile, clinical. They mentioned like a little bit about themselves, not like they were trying to spill all the tea, but they really approached it like a mutual match, and I really loved and respected that. Um, when I had my retrieval, they came the day of. I mean, they have to provide their sperm, right? They hung out and waited for me to be done, and they gave me a hug after the retrieval. They like walked me to the car. I that was really lovely. When I met them, I was working at the agency still, and at that time, I was having a lot of my recipient clients ask if they could have direct contact with the donor. So at the time, I was asking the donors if they'd be willing to share an email address. Um, and if they wanted to create an anonymous email address so that their name was not shared, they could do that. So I was seeing the trend shift in the industry and thought that that was really great. So when I met the guys, I asked if they wanted to have contact so that we could share like medical updates, maybe some pictures, and they agreed. So I sent them, I gave them my email address. We had been in touch throughout the years. It's been more and more contact over the years. They would send me Christmas cards so I'd see at least one or two pictures of the kids every year. And it was wild because they didn't I didn't think that they looked like me. I never had this sense of like, oh, they're mine, like, oh, I'm missing now. Like I like I need to be part of their lives. It was very much like these are your kids.
SPEAKER_00You never got baby pictures out and compared.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'm sure over the years I have. I guess I was expecting to feel more maternal. I was expecting it to on some level hurt a little bit, and it didn't. The little boy, well, now they're like teenagers now. The boy looks like my dad. He resembles my dad. So they kind of look like relatives of mine, but they don't, in my eyes, look like me. So there has there's never been that like sense of ownership. Yeah, it was it's it was really nice to see that over the years and helped me feel like I wasn't missing out. And it was enough for a long time.
SPEAKER_00So how old were they when you first met them in person?
SPEAKER_03They had a birthday somewhat recently. I don't know how old they are now, thirteen maybe. I think we had a Zoom call probably three years ago at this point. So it's two dads and a boy and a girl. The daughter started having questions. I will also say that the dads did not tell them that they were donor-conceived. They waited for the children to ask questions, which you know would seem obvious that they're donor-conceived, but like kids don't have that language. They might not put their pieces together. If the parents don't share this information, it feels more taboo.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, usually you hear that donor-conceived people that came from same-sex couples seem to have more openness. More openness, like they've always known it. You know, it's like, well, it's obvious because I have two dads. How could they have made a kid?
SPEAKER_03Right, right. But obviously, since there was two dads, there was also a surrogate. So did the kids think that the surrogate was their biological mom?
SPEAKER_00Oh, of course.
SPEAKER_03Right?
SPEAKER_00Okay. And one burning question too. I don't know why it's so interesting to me, but did each half of the couple made their own kid?
SPEAKER_03Yes. The daughter started having more questions and wanting to know me and just just to like know that I was like a real person. We had a Zoom call. The son wasn't interested, which like I'm not heartbroken about that. Like, if you're not interested, I'm not trying to put that on you. At the I was really sweet though. At the end of the call, she did say like insert brother's name should come say hello as well. And he did oblige and he came over. So um I did officially meet both of them on a Zoom call about three years ago. And then right before I moved to New Jersey a year ago, I did meet them in person again. Also, I went out to California to visit family in March, and I asked them if they wanted to see me while I was in town, and I made a point to meet up with them. They invited me to their house, which felt so huge. Like, this is personal space. It's like monumental that you're inviting me into your home, especially where these guys, like I I love them. To me, the dads are also family, but there has been some very eloquent language over the years that's very much like big separation between you and us.
SPEAKER_00Like, what sort of language have they used that has given you that feeling?
SPEAKER_03Like, we don't want to DNA test the kids. We don't well for paternity, but also like to to meet other family siblings, mentioning that there was a DNA surprise in one of the dad's side of the family, and that caused a hullabaloo, and we don't want more of that. Kind of the sense of my involvement would create disharmony, it would create a stir-up, and they just want to live their lives. Yeah, and I'm not part of the dad's lives.
SPEAKER_00They don't want their kids to end up being connected with any other kids that you have that that have come about because of your donations or your pregnancies, or you know, like I'm not being invited to birthday parties, which like I'm not up, like it would be nice, but I'm not like upset about that, right?
SPEAKER_03But they wouldn't want me to show up and be like, Well, who are you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And then this is like, oh, oh, there's maybe like whispers or I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Emily, what was that first meeting like with them on Zoom? Like, how did you feel?
SPEAKER_03I've heard this same sentiment from donor-conceived adults. I heard this in a conference from donor-conceived adults, and then I lived it and was like, oh, that's what that feels like. It was like meeting myself. It was kind of cool that it was on Zoom because I could see the two dads sitting in the background. They were like a little bit part of the conversation or steering the conversation because their daughter didn't really like know what to say. Um, so the daughter was sitting in the front, especially because it was on a screen, I could see like this is the family. Like I am connected, but they are a whole family. That was so helpful for me. And I liken it to in surrogacy when uh it's it's recommended that a surrogate's kids meet the baby and see the baby with the parents. It feels the same to me. Like it creates so much closure and like reassurance, and I think lessened the pull of like, what am I missing, or uh do they want me in their lives, and how are they doing, and like any of these kind of insecurities felt so much more resolved once I met them.
SPEAKER_00So you were having those feelings before meeting them.
SPEAKER_03Should I be there or there was just a lot of questions. And because of my background and knowledge and like you know, hearing stories in the fertility space, I have carried around guilt knowing that I donated anonymously, because number one, I don't know if the kids were told that they're donor-conceived. And number two, if they were told that they were donor-conceived, what if the kids want to know me? I'm very open to knowing and being more involved in their lives if they want me to be. But knowing that these kids could not know that they're donor-conceived, and even if they do know that they're donor conceived, the parents could say, like, I will not help you find the donor, or I don't want to know the donor, or definitely not until you're 18. Like, I respect that one. Knowing that the kids could have some discomfort, dissatisfaction from this, like breaks my heart for them.
SPEAKER_00I understand that. Absolutely. In the immediate aftermath of that Zoom call, did you have a feeling of relief?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. The second the camera turned on and I saw even just the three of them, and especially when the brother came in, this looks like a complete picture here. Also, knowing that we're a Venn diagram and we're overlapped in some capacity.
SPEAKER_00Did she have any questions for you?
SPEAKER_03I mean, at that age, not really. Um, she's super shy. Um, but when saying like it was like meeting myself, like the mannerisms, like I got awkward and uncomfortable, not uncomfortable, but like felt awkward and didn't know what to say, and she was doing that 10x. I did share some things, and the dads helped like drive the conversation a little bit, but it was mostly me sharing things about myself. And I I know more about their interests and things like that. The emails, I have been a little, I push a little bit more whenever I send emails, asking for more information or sharing more information about myself and um have put out there like I'm interested in more of a relationship. Like, please let me know if the kids are. So I I understand that could I sure has made recipients feel pressure and maybe slightly uncomfortable, but I'm also trying to think of this from the kids' perspective. Like, what do the kids want? Yeah, it's not just what the parents want. Like the parents, being two gay dads, like they want a nuclear family. It's not the reality. So I know that they would like to have less involvement, or at least 10 years ago, definitely wanted little to no involvement with me. Appreciate that we have contact, appreciate that I send medical updates, appreciate the photos, but still like want things very separate but equal. I have put myself out there in like all of the ways possible.
SPEAKER_00What about the next set of twins? You met them as well, you said?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's that's a little more wild of a story. This was uh on a day that was, I'll just say emotional politically. I remember waking up in the morning, hearing some political news that was unsettling, and I was like feeling a certain way. And I even went into my husband's office when he was working. Like, hey, I just want to let you know this news has made me feel big feelings today. I'm feeling kind of sensitive. Just want to let you know. Just trying to do him a solid. And then I go into my office and sit down at my computer and open my work email. There's an email from a recipient.
SPEAKER_00And are you a therapist at this point with your own business?
SPEAKER_03This was recently, a year and a half, two years ago. My work email is more invasive than sending it to like a personal email. I don't know how that happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what did it say?
SPEAKER_03Hey, my name is blah blah blah. Uh I'm a recipient mother. Um, worked with this fertility clinic with this fertility doctor. Like, I believe that you're my donor. So she sent a bunch of pictures, and I just cried. I was having like an emotional morning already, and I get this email that felt a little bit too personal because it was my work email address. It has very personal information and personal connection and photos. And I was just overwhelmed by emotions. It was not sadness, it was not like anger, frustration, probably just like a lot of positive feelings. But I think just my raw emotional state that day and the shock.
SPEAKER_00Did you respond right away or did you wait?
SPEAKER_03I can't not respond right away. I'm sharer. I'm sure I wrote back. I probably wrote something and then like shut my computer and then came back a couple hours later and like had to re-edit everything over and over again until it was somewhat appropriate or concise. And I sent photos and I sent like everything I could. So there's a few back and forths. The kids wanted to do a Zoom call. The kids, this is a single mom by choice, sperm donor, egg donor, surrogate, first surrogate, miscarried. The kid, the twins had Turner syndrome.
SPEAKER_00Was this one of your genetic kids who who the surrogate miscarried?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it was the same batch of embryos.
SPEAKER_00Got it.
SPEAKER_03They transferred to the surrogate got pregnant, miscarried. I don't remember if she said they got a different surrogate or if it was the same one, but the second set of embryos stuck, and now there are two children. They know and have contact with and relationships with siblings on the sperm donor side. And they were hoping to meet siblings on the egg donor side. The first in-person meeting was with the daughter of the dads. The daughter was going through some stuff and wanted to meet me in person before I moved. I met her in person first, and then gosh, like a month later, I drove across the country and met the other kids.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so what was the first in-person meeting like with your daughter from the gay couple?
SPEAKER_03I had already met online, so I kind of knew what to expect. Um, I did make both of those kids' quilts. It felt really personal and meaningful for me, and I wanted to give it to her in person when we met.
SPEAKER_00Was it emotional?
SPEAKER_03I mean, like yes, but I mean, is it it wasn't like I when I started breaking down crying after getting the email from the other family.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wonder what it was that was so much more emotional about seeing that email from that single mom.
SPEAKER_03It's shock. I have always hoped to have connections with all of these families, and it just literally inserted itself into my life. Maybe you can relate on that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean my first in-person meeting with my son was extremely emotional. Okay. Um so that's why I think that's why I'm asking. Like, was that first in-person meeting emotional?
SPEAKER_03Because I think I it's I think that I still see myself as having a responsibility. So this is like I still have to show up for them. So when we talk about compensation, and like, was that fair compensation for the work at that time that felt adequate? If we're talking about a lifelong responsibility of maintaining records, sending photos, having regular contact with the kids, dealing with parents that are not supportive or try to get in the way or don't want contact or whatever. If you like add all of that stuff up, there's no there's no financial compensation that adequately covers all of that. Like, not saying I like opposite of saying, like, I should have gotten more money. Like I was fairly compensated for like the work that I did at that time. But this is not a one and done. This is not a masturbate in a cup, and congratulations, you're a mother. Like, carry on with your life. This is, I still have a personal responsibility and obligation. And from both of the families I have contact with, it feels at least on some level, it's different with the two families. It feels like I want information, my kids want information. What can you give me? The mom, I feel like I was ghosted after I met them in person. Um, I sent her a follow-up text message a couple weeks later. I sent her a follow-up email much later, and I got no response. So I kind of feel used again. Yeah, I felt used for the eggs. Like, I got what I need. Um, I want my own family, and you're not part of it, which like hurts on some level. And like, hey, my kids want to meet you, they want to meet your kids. What they were actually looking for was to know if I had contact with any of the other families because those twins wanted contact with other donor siblings. Also wanted to meet my kids, so that's still checked a box. But again, I gave you medical update, I gave you pictures, I drove across the country and met you in person. Um, I reached out to the other family who did not want contact with her and her kids. So that was also an emotional weight that I had to carry. Like, let me be the shitty messenger here. And then nothing. You asked what it was like with the first meeting with my biological daughter, still feel like I have to just show up and give, and that I am not entitled to anything. My narrative that I hold on to in that regard is we paid you already. We don't owe you anything else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it does feel wow, Emily. I feel so uh I've never heard anyone else verbalize it. That feeling of being used is, you know, I think on the sperm donor side, it's like, well, yeah, it's easy to masturbate in a cup and we'll give you $40. It's pretty tempting to a 22-year-old to do something like that, and you don't know what you're doing when you're 22 years old. I didn't know what I was doing when I was 22 years old. I had no idea that I was giving like a piece of myself away that was so important and would have such a big impact on me years later. And so then when there's discomfort around the donor showing up years later and having emotions around this and having feelings and being a person, boy, I've heard some things from my I've I've heard some things personally from my one of my kids about what one of their parents said about me, and it's like, yeah, they're grateful, but why why am I talking to them? I shouldn't be having any contact with them at all. And the circumstances weren't the same as yours, they were a little different, but but so anyway, I'm just identifying. I know what you're saying about feeling used in uh in a way that doesn't always and not not that I always feel that way, but there are times when I have felt, oh wow, I'm just like this anonymous guy who thanks a lot. See you later.
SPEAKER_03It's a really strange, small piece, and I feel like the words like I feel used are not adequate because yes, like they and the dads have said it over and over again, like like we would not have a family without you. We are so appreciative, like we appreciate the updates, we appreciate the photos, the kids like to see them, whatever. I got like a handwritten thank you card from my biological son when I mailed his quilt to him. Like, so like I yes, I see that, and there's still stuff that feels purposefully withheld, that still is uncomfortable for them, that they still don't owe me anything. Like I asked the mom, how did you find me? And she said, like, based on the information that I had, it was really easy to Google you. I I'm pretty sure, based on my interactions with the nurse coordinator at the fertility clinic, that um she was given a little bit of information about me, not like a full disclosure, but enough for her to Google me. So maybe she didn't want to get the fertility clinic in trouble or that nurse in trouble. Fine. That felt like a lie. Like I sent in in two or three emails to her. Like, what is what is your job? No response. Even to the guys who have been more and more communicative over the years. Too many times where I have sent an email and asked a question, and the question just isn't addressed. Like, I'm gonna answer all of your other questions. I'm gonna talk about all these other things. Kids went to surf camp this summer, and the kids are in swimming and whatever. But I'm not gonna answer this question. It's like there is a certain level of respect that recipients do not give to their donors that they would give to anybody else that was a stranger on the street.
SPEAKER_00Do you think they feel threatened by your pres by your presence and your interest? Absolutely. You want their kids, you know, to some extent.
SPEAKER_03Or they just don't want to be mean and say no. Because a lot of this has transpired via email, it's easy to just ignore parts of the email or ignore the whole email. I'm just not gonna respond to this. This has been a really big evolution with my husband. Like when I met the kid, when I was going to the kids' house in March, about like such a wildly huge milestone, and I was super nervous. Like I've met the guys in person before, so like I'm not scared of them in circumstance. This pressure to perform that I am doing well, that I am not socially awkward, even though my husband will attest to the fact that I am incredibly socially awkward. There's that pressure and having to do show up and do that in someone's house, someone who has such a deep connection to you, but you're also not wanted. Like you're wanted, but not wanted. I want you, but please don't be in my life. I have had a lot of feelings over the years, and it will come up at random times. Either like something personal in my life will come up, and I'll think about it and I'll have some big feelings, or I'll get that email on a day where I was already having really big feelings, or I get an email, or I sent an email and it's been three weeks and there's no response. And like, I oh my god, I'm realizing that I'm thinking I'm being ghosted here. So my my husband like lives in the house with me. So he sees this. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. There have been a lot of conversations, and those conversations have evolved over the years, and it has gone from the first date of like, but you don't owe them anything else, right? Like, this is not gonna be a problem, like they're not gonna be living with us or asking for money in the future, to most predominantly recently, but they're not your kids. Like, yeah, they're your biological kids, but they're not your kids, they're not your kids. And why do you care so much? Why do you try? Why do you feel like you have to give them everything? Why do you feel like you have to overshare information? Like, stop trying so hard. It doesn't matter. So there's a lot of that, and like I I kind of respect the sentiment behind it, and it's incredibly dismissive, and it has thank God, like evolved beyond that of like I understand like thank you for sharing that you're feeling overwhelmed by this. Like, thank you for letting me know where you're at. What do you need? And of course, being a husband and a man, like, how can I fix this for you still creeps in sometimes, but there's a lot more understanding. He is less shaming about that now. And I know I know he's like always been supportive. Anybody that's asked him, like, what did you think about her when she wanted to be a surrogate? He's like, I'm not surprised. Like, I know who she is. I know that she's a loving, caring person. So, like, I know that I have his love and support. Yeah, that's been a really, really big evolution over the years. But not having donors be like in the public and sharing thoughts in like, you know, the wide media. Like, I've I've constantly had these feelings of like, I shouldn't feel this way. I shouldn't feel this way. Why do I feel this way? Like, I need to turn this off. But where I have like come to a resolution around this is how can I turn it off and be expected to turn it on when the kids contact me? That doesn't make sense. So I unfortunately will just be carrying this weight my whole life and continue to feel responsibility, even though I'm not wanted, it's not wanted. So as the kids turn 18, that'll be different, I'm sure. But I am expecting to probably hear from at least one other family when the kids turn 18. I am really curious what happens with the kids that I know once they turn 18. Of course, like again, if they don't have an interest, then that's fine. But I just want them to know that I am available and I would like to be in their lives if they want me to be. What do you think major husbands switch from you know, these aren't your kids to So he still feels that way, but he is showing up better. What changed like so many conversations about how that doesn't feel supportive? And me just telling him, like, I just need you to listen right now. So yeah, he still thinks like they're not your responsibility, you don't owe them anything. He still thinks all those things, but he's just showing up better. I do think that he does not want these kids to take away from what we have in our family.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Like, yeah, if you want to go see them when you're in LA, like fine. But if they lived nearby and you wanted to hang out with them every weekend, then that's more time that like I have to watch our kids. I've I asked him, like, would you want to meet? Would you want to meet so-and-so and so and so, and would you want to meet the kids? He's like, uh, they don't mean anything to me. So, no, like if you wanted me to come, I would come. I don't need to know these people. My biological daughter has been going through a hard time in the last couple years. Going back to an earlier point, like that is part of the reason why I still feel like I have to show up. Like, what do you need? But no one is asking what I need, and no one cares what I need.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the donors are used and people move on, right? Like the clinics, the the um the recipient parents. I mean, how did you decide to become a surrogate?
SPEAKER_03Um, so in order to be a surrogate, you have to have had kids already. So it was after I graduated from grad school, became a therapist. I was starting to build out my private practice, trying to build like a social media presence. I started following a lot of like dads with kids, things like that. My social media feed was just like giving me a lot of that content. So again, it was like, oh, like my my heart just feels for you.
SPEAKER_00Does that feel emotionally different to carry by surrogacy than it does to carry your own kids or to meet your donor-conceived kids who you didn't carry by surrogacy?
SPEAKER_03As odd as it may sound, I feel a stronger emotional, like maternal connection to my biological children through donor conception than the actual literal baby that I carried and birthed. So the love is just as big, it is different, but I feel more of a connection to my biological children in that regard.
SPEAKER_00What do you think that's about?
SPEAKER_03I I think that we're just we're more connected by genes. Like, yeah, I'm part of the little girl's story through surrogacy. Sure. I'm part of how she got here, sure. I love the dads and I still text with them all the time. Like lifelong I'm connected to these other kids in a more profound way. Like I could never see the little girl that I carried ever again and be like, she's good. Like she's not gonna, she's very, very likely not gonna want or need anything for me in the future. Like having a biological, medical, emotional connection to my biological children, um, that is a lifelong journey for both of us.
SPEAKER_00It's just more profound, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03It is. And and to someone who is not a donor, I think that that sounds wild. How profound is it to carry someone else's baby? And then, you know, a lot of people think like, oh, you're giving up the baby after you deliver, like that feels profound. I fell in love with these men when I matched with them, and then like you're building a relationship with them over the course of the pregnancy. So you like you know what you're doing. You're like, I know I'm caring for them.
SPEAKER_00I'm so glad you've done both to have that different experience. Do you in your therapy work when you're working with recipient parents, what advice do you give them about using a donor?
SPEAKER_03I gotta stop you there because you said using a donor.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That is language that like I am so advocating to change. So that's like again perpetuating the idea of donors being used. And that is the language that is the language that is being used in this industry, and it kills me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We are people, we have feelings, we have to live with this for the rest of our lives. Yeah. And even to sperm donors who you like traditionally might think like are a little bit more emotionally checked out or maybe don't care as much, like, even to sperm donors, like it is still something so profound that impacts us for the rest of our lives.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So let me take another shot at my question. How do you recommend that recipient parents form a relationship with a donor?
SPEAKER_03What I do say in these consultations is absolute ideal is that you have immediate direct contact with your donor. So whether that is a friend, whether that is you're matching through like a matched agency, like I donated through, and then asking for contact, like, hey, I would like to match with this donor. Um, is the donor open to it? Can we share identifying information, contact information? I would like to have a future relationship with the donor, like throughout the child's life, while they're children, while they're adults. How do you feel about that? So, like being more actively engaged and not just like going with the flow of what the industry is doing. This is what is um in the child's best interest medically, social emotional development, um, having access to that, knowing that it's available, not having taboo, anything taboo related to their conception.
SPEAKER_00How do you want to be treated by your recipient parents?
SPEAKER_03With respect. Answer the question, answer the questions. Even if it's like, hey, I don't know how I feel how I feel about sharing that information right now. That feels a little personal. Just have a respectful conversation with me about it.
SPEAKER_00What's an example of a question you've asked that hasn't been answered that you think Yeah, like what do you what do you do for work? Or is it just kind of like a conversation starter thing? I mean, a lot of us do that, you know.
SPEAKER_03And did you feel like they just weren't even giving you I don't know anything about you? I know your first name and I know your last name. I know what city you live in. I met you in that city. I've seen what you look like. You've probably gone out of your way to make sure that there isn't anything else public on the internet. I have Googled you and I cannot find anything about you. You have everything about me. Can you imagine going to a party and someone asks you what you do for work and you just like walk away? That is kind of basic information. Like you guys know every you know my blood type. Like, I don't know. Like, do you have pictures of my follicles growing from ultrasounds? Like, you have everything about me. When I had the little girl via surrogacy, like the one dad that was able to show up and be in the room during delivery, like saw my vagina. How personal is all of this? And you will not share the profession that you work in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is very unequal. I didn't think about that. They do know quite a bit of stuff, at least from the donation time. Do put yourself out there. Now that I look back on it, it feels a little eugenics too. You know, I look back to the form I filled out. My first son who reached out to me, he somehow found the three-page form that I had filled out. I have no idea how he found it. But, you know, it's like my ACT score, my interests, my siblings, my medical information, and that's good. You know, I mean, I want them to have that stuff, but it is a in hindsight, I felt a little weird, like I had I was kind of used to use that terminology because you got all that stuff out of me, and then there's that kid who came for me, and now you're like, but please do not contact us. We don't want to know you because I got what I wanted. You know, that's how it feels.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's even speaking of the name of your podcast, like you so freely use the word like my kids or like dad or mom, or that has been a journey for me. It all it's only been over the last like three years where I have been working on like what that identity looks like for me, and like done up doing a lot of like um pitches when I go to like networking meetings, like what do I do for work? Like, who am I? What am I about? Instead of being like, here's the stats. I'm a six-time donor, one-time gestational carrier. It's like I'm I'm a wife and a mom of two kids. I am also a mom of I don't know, approximately six children through egg donation. And like, especially being an egg donor, I think the word mom is so scary and for recipients for recipients to hear, so it makes me hesitant to use that. So I'm super, super careful about that. And like there's I'm so so so self-conscious about so much of this. And it's all for the comfort of other people. Like the kids can call me, they can call me Emily, they can call me mom. Like, like if you have two dads, you want to call me mom, like that makes sense. But if you have one mom and you want to call me mom, like maybe that's a little bit uncomfortable for the adults in this party, but again, like it's all at the comfort of someone else and less so about what I want or make what makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_00You know, I really want to be looked at as not an equal per se because our roles are very different.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00But I think I want to be looked at like as um some sort of uh partner in this whole thing. I mean, I don't need to be called dad either. I mean, that's not my that's not my goal, but but I I mean without me it couldn't have happened, and I don't think I almost think that oftentimes they don't want to look at the donors because they don't want to see what commonalities might have come from the donors, not just looks. I don't think they want to think about mannerisms and personalities and other other strange coincidences. It's such this mysterious mix of like, you know, people become this combination of who they're around and who raised them and and their biology and their genes. And I don't understand it all, but I don't want to be looked at as like just some medical information, you know. I mean, I think I I'm more than that. I it I purposely didn't name the podcast donor parents. I did that at first, but some people hate the idea of using the word parents, mostly recipient parents, who don't want to, you know, and that's that's okay. But yeah, I I yeah, I just identify so much with that journey that you're going through right now to figure out what is our role, what should we, you know, what should we do. Do you ever have feelings of regret? And how do you look at those? Because I'm I'm sure they're not necessarily all regret, but just wondering if you have those.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I really hold pride for donating. I still do think it was a beautiful thing. So that is the core of it. And probably an equal part of it is the regret for donating anonymously. Regret for knowing that these kids might not know that they're donor-conceived, or if they do at some point know that they are donor-conceived, not being able to contact me. And that breaks my heart that they might have unmet needs, even if it's just emotional. If you look at like the phases of development for kids, like identity formation, like I've heard stories about donor-conceived people who find out that they're donor-conceived, and it just absolutely rocks their identity. And it hurts me to think that that could be something that my biological kids through donation are going through.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely so well said that it the regret is about the anonymous way that it was done. I think I can really agree with that. Because I when I do feel regret, I I feel bad. I feel guilty about that because I want my kids to be out there, but I th I do think that's such a I'm so glad you put it that way.
SPEAKER_03And I have taken steps to make sure I'm findable. And I feel like I've done most probably everything that is in my power to do at this point. Um, I'm a lifetime member on the donor sibling registry. I have contacted the the clinic, the only clinic that I think that matters at this point, um, and told them that I'm open to sharing information. Can you put a note in my file? I contacted the lawyers that I used during my donations, and they told me to send like a handwritten signed letter to them to share contact and identifying information. So if the lawyers are contacted, then they can have every which way to find me. Um, which actually I moved, so I might need to update them, but my phone number is still the same. I did 23andme and Ancestry DNA. I did got nervous and I canceled um my 23andme when they went through their bankruptcy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You can always do it again.
SPEAKER_03I know. So I'm findable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So that makes me feel like I have done everything that I can do to be findable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and I know and expect to receive emails and phone calls from people on my front door in a couple years when the kids start turning 18.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And we'll just have to go through that when I go through it.
SPEAKER_00Well, Emily, thank you so much. This has been very eye-opening for me. I've learned so much about egg donation that I I didn't understand and really appreciate you being open about that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00If you're listening to this podcast and are a past egg or sperm donor and would like to share your story so that others can learn from your experience, please send me an email at donor moms and dads at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening.