When Loving Your Child Means Letting Them Go with Aaron Hovivian

Some decisions cost more than comfort - but they can save lives.

In this episode, Whitney Sewell sits down with Aaron Hovivian to talk about what real leadership looks like when everything is on the line.

Aaron shares the story of the hardest decision he and his wife made as parents -placing their teenage daughter into residential care to save her life - and the courage it required to choose what was right over what was comfortable.

They also discuss how the same principles - courage, consistency, and faith - apply to leadership in both the home and in business.

If you’re facing difficult decisions as a husband, father, or leader, this episode will challenge and steady you.

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Download Whitney’s Personal Operating System:
 https://courageousmen.com/personal-operating-system

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 https://www.whitneysewell.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

She was crying on the ground, like holding on to my feet, saying, please don't leave me here. Like I trusted you. I would have followed you anywhere. Like you can't leave me here. So many leaders, they know what they should be doing. They know what they should be handling. They just don't want to do it. So they just they avoid it. They turn a blind eye to it. Don't despise the day of small beginnings. And I think if you can just be consistent in the little things, I really believe that consistency is the key to leadership.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Welcome to the Courageous Men Podcast, where we help Christian men follow God faithfully, love their families well, and build a legacy that lasts. And now your host, Whitney Stewart.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Today on the Courageous Men Podcast, we're joined by a man who helps leaders bring order to chaos. Not just in business, but in life. Aaron Havivian is the CEO of the Colab team, where he works with founders and leadership teams to build systems that turn vision into execution and pressure into clarity. Aaron has spent years helping business owners make hard, disciplined decisions. You're going to hear that today throughout the entire interview, but the kind that protect the long-term health of an organization even when they're uncomfortable, say in the moment. And that same leadership conviction was tested in the most personal way possible. When he and his wife Megan faced a season that required courageous, decisive leadership at home. And today we're talking about what it looks like to lead when the stakes are high, why consistency matters more than intensity, and how faith anchors men to make the right decisions, even when those decisions cost them something. Aaron, it's an honor to have you on the show. Aaron, take us back to the season when your daughter was 17, your family was faced, you know, with the decision no parent ever wants to make. Maybe give us a little bit about what was happening. How did you realize really this was the moment that required courage, right? Instead of comfort, right? For you to lead as a man, as a husband, as a father, that's a difficult season. But give us a little bit about what was happening because I know there's many men who are listening who can relate uh to that season you were in. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

I think that one of the trickiest things um with being a dad, especially a dad of four, is that they're all so uniquely individual, right? And for us, you know, we had already successfully been in the throes of raising three kids, you know, when when my youngest really started to struggle. Um, and you know, it it started um in her junior high junior high years where she was just started hanging out with this boy that was just not healthy for and she wasn't healthy for him. I can't say it was all him, like this evil, you know, young kid. I think that they just both were not healthy for each other. Um, and it just, you know, we so we tried everything, you know, we tried at first like forbidding it, you know, and then like it was really hard to control, you know. So then we thought, well, we'll just bring this kid in, you know. So we pulled him in and like tried to really spend time, and and that didn't fix things, you know, this toxic behavior between the two of them that just was not healthy for either of them. Um, you know, the the boy had had really um unstable family situations and he was unstable, you know, and he had gotten violent with his mom at a point and he had to put be put, you know, into a correctional facility for a while. You know, it was just the the not a healthy scenario and definitely not something you want for your daughter, you know, especially his dads, you know, you're like, man, this is not who I would have chosen for you, and this is definitely not the relationship I would want for you, you know. And so like we forbid it and then we welcomed in, and then it it still wasn't working. So then we tried to just be ambivalent about it, you know. I mean, like what you're gonna do, what you're gonna do, you know, and try to just keep some gauges on like rules and what we allowed, you know. But um, it was getting worse and worse and worse to the point where, you know, it was really creating some deep depression and insecurity in in our youngest enjoy to the point where she got to a spot where she was so low that she ended up um overdosing on her her depression medication. And thankfully, she let us know what had happened before it was too late. And we took her to the hospital. And, you know, I that's not I had never been in a scenario like that before. We had never been up against anything like that before, you know, and um I didn't realize that when you take your kid in for something like that, that you actually lose power over your kid. She was a minor and you know, they 515 her, you know, where they they put her in the the protection of the state of like she's she's a risk to herself. And so I had gone to go get dinner for the family. We were stuck in this hospital for like four or five hours. Everybody was getting hangry, you know. And so like I I went to go get dinner for everybody as we waited up for them to pump her stomach and what we're gonna do next and all those different things. And by the time I came back, um, they had pulled her into a room and they weren't gonna release her and only one of us could stay. And so I was the one that was close to and like Joyce person, you know. So they made me surrender my shoes and everything out of my pockets and like um all these different things. And we we slept on the floor that night on a mattress on the ground in a padded room, like the craziest things. And and like it was so unlike unsettling and so scary, you know, and just having to be there for your kid in the midst of such a dark time. Um, and in the morning, you know, they ended up releasing us because Joy did have support. She did have a, you know, a clinician that she was working with and she was on medication. And but we realized at that point um that we were gonna have to do something. Like this was the final straw, you know, like we she was gonna turn 18 in just a few months, and this was she was still a minor, we still had control. And so um, for us, we decided we were gonna have to find some place that we could, you know, put her in for the sake of her own safety and to hopefully help her, you know. And so it was a really hard decision, um, not something that you would want to do. You know, we weren't sure where to go. We didn't know anybody else that had ever had to do this before, you know, none of our family, none of our friends, you know, and so we found some place online in Utah that was a ranch that was, you know, built around animals and driving able to work with animals and trying to get healthy. Um, and so we made the decision, you know, and uh I think a lot of families actually pay people to come take their kids there, but we were like, there's no way like we could do that, like in the middle of the night and then somebody show up in her room. How traumatized was so um we told her we were gonna go visit some friends out in Utah, which was true. And we took her with us and it was so heavy because she didn't know what we were walking her into, but I knew we knew what we were walking her into, you know. And um, even as we pulled into the place to drop her off at this ranch, like she um didn't know until finally she knew, and then like just came apart and fell apart and just um begged and begged me and and um was such it was such a traumatic experience for all of us of like dropping her off, you know. And they gave us a tour, but Joyce stayed with them and she tried to run off and they had to constrain her, and it was like it was uh just such a traumatic, traumatic experience. But I will say, and I will, I mean, it was so heavy, you know, because she said things to me like she was crying on the ground, like holding on to my feet, saying, Please don't leave me here. Like I I trusted you, I would have followed you anywhere, like you can't leave me here, you know. And like we like we have very intimate like relationship with all of our kids, and it was so heavy. We had never been up against anything like that before. But I will say this that decision, you know, we didn't talk we didn't get to talk to her for a month, you know, like she had to be in there for a month only by letters so I wrote her every single day. And we were able to talk to her over the phone, but only with a clinic only with a clinician that was there and only for a half hour, you know, only once a week, you know, and joy there for four months. No, and it was so heavy and it was so hard. Um, but she came out on the other side and um has has never gone back to that boy and never went and was able to recognize the like toxic tailspin that she had been in. Um, and it was so heavy and so hard, but I'm so grateful because now we're five years later and Joy's doing so well and she's moved out and she's on her own and she's got a job and she's so healthy, and we talk every she calls me every day on the way home from work. I was so worried I was gonna lose her. You know what I mean? But I feel like it's it's pulled us tighter. So heavy, heavy time, but something I feel like was God was really kind, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

And praise the Lord uh that she is doing so well now. I I love that, and that she's still calling you every day. That I wanted to go back and ask you about a couple things. And yeah, you know, you mentioned, you know, like you're when this happened, you're in the hospital. I cannot imagine, and then getting there and realizing, wait a minute, somebody's taking my child or custody or whatever it is, you know, that uh I don't have control, right? I'm the father and this is my daughter. You mentioned like you're her guy, you know, like you know, you stayed there with her. Well tell me about building that relationship, yeah, up to that point to where even in that moment, like, no, I love my daddy, you know, like I want my daddy to be here. What are some things that mean uh, you know, for men that are listening who have maybe even younger children, maybe even older, but especially especially anything you did that said, you know what, this helped me to have that kind of relationship with her, even in a super difficult time. She was she was coming to her daddy to for comfort and wanted him to be there.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah, man. I think that um you know, I've I've always really tried to be Joy's a big feeler, right? She's she's a four on the Enneagram. You know what I mean? So like she's a big feeler, everything's emotion, right? And so really I've tried to key into Joy ever since she was a little kid, and she was always somebody who could move a room. Like she she could make all the big kids laugh, like she would just have the funniest wit and just the things that she would say. And she was such a creative, you know, she is such a creative, you know, she paints and she draws and she like she can sing, she's just got she's got so many gifts. But I really tried to um intentionally connect with Joy on her level. And Joy wasn't an easy, it still isn't to this day an easy kid to move, you know. Like Joy a lot of times doesn't like she's she can be a homebody and she doesn't like to out and do a lot of things. The other kids, I I you know, I always tried to make special time for them. Like once a week, take one of the kids out and go do something special, go up to the coffee shop or go do something that they would want to do and just invest special time with them. But Joy was tough because she didn't always want to go do things, you know. So I would just go and she'd be in her, you know, maybe in a room, just laying in her bed, like listening to music or something. And I would try and just go in and just lay down next to her and just like just talk, like how's she feeling today? And like what she what's going on inside of her head today, and just try and connect with her on a level that um meant something to Joy. And I I really like that um that book about the Enneagram is called The Road Back to You, I think is what it's called. But it just talks about how do I engage with people that are at a different place on the personality scale of the Enneagram. Like, how do I as a two relate to a four? And and what's a way I can connect with her. So I think that was something that I've really tried to implement with each one of my kids is how can I meet them where they're at and talk to them in a way that um engages them and draws them out of themselves and we can have relationship based on.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Love that. You know, speak to you and Megan, you know, you and your wife listening, you know, you know, you chose to obviously place your your daughter in this care. Speak to how you all stayed unified at that time. Obviously, super highly emotional time. Maybe you weren't at times, maybe you were. I I don't know. But I I just I can't imagine, you know, obviously a need for you all to be on the same page, right? About what's best for your daughter. You both love her immensely. What did that look like? How did you work through that and really lead, you know, through that?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

That has been, I would say, like Megan and I, so I've been married um 30 years this year, and like Megan and I were um high school sweethearts, you know, and have been together, you know, through all of my oldest is 28, you know, so we have 28, 26, 24, and 22 each way. Um, so I'd say Megan and I just naturally get along pretty well. I mean, like just in a very natural way, like nothing spiritual, like just personality-wise, right? And then obviously we're both submitted to Jesus, right? Where it's like we're coming to him and teeing up under him with you know, submitting ourselves to him for his guidance of both our lives. Now, that being said, we're very different as far as parents go. You know, Megan would say, if you talk to Megan, she'd say that she's Moses and that I'm Jesus. And what she means by that is she's like very letter of the law. Like she's like, you did this, the consequence is this, very cut and dry. And I'm always like, uh, were they clear on that? Was what the consequence was going to be? Did we communicate that in a way that this is fair? Is this like, and I'm always more willing to like err on the side of grace than like just be super militant about it. Like, obviously, I think there's consequences. Obviously, I think things need to be corrected. But um, you know, we so that I think when you start having turbulence, you know, my first two kids, I would say, if you asked me how I did with parenting, I would say, our first two kids, we felt like we were super parents. We were like, come talk to us. And then our second two kids just kicked our butt when it came to like parenting, you know, because they're all so unique and so different, you know. So I think that when it came to this scenario with joy, you know, Megan, like I think we both felt so out of control, like not sure on like we had tried it all. We had tried Megan's way of like being very, very strict. We had tried my way of trying to be a little more gracious and bringing her, but neither way was really working. And I think it really required both of us to come together and really just in desperation, like ask what's next, you know. And so coming to God and praying and praying that he would this the right spot. But man, it is scary when you're just like surfing the internet trying to find someplace you're gonna put your child into that's like an an institution. Like what what like what do you do with that? And you have like it's these terrible stories. Netflix did a whole series on ranches in Utah, you know what I mean? Like it's crazy scary stuff that's out there, you know. And but I felt like both of us really had a piece about this place, um, and to try it. And even um, once we got there, the the man that Joy got placed with that was her therapist was a believer, you know, because it you don't always find that in these kinds of places, you know. And and it was so comforting to us that this would be the man that she was under the care of. And, you know, the conversations that we had with even the the man that was the director over the whole uh facility. And he said, you know, we he was kind of a cut and dry guy. And I think Megan could really appreciate that. And he said, listen, because we said, are we doing the right thing? You know, we've never had this problem before, we've never had to do anything. You know, a lot of people we didn't realize put their children through wilderness before they put them into a uh facility like this where it's wilderness training, you know, it's much more aggressive and they're out in the wilderness and it's they it's it's a pretty intense program. We had never done, we didn't even know that was the way you do things, right? We just showed up at this place and dropped off our kid and you could tell it kind of shook up the staff even. I don't think they saw a lot of parents do that that way, you know, and but that was really important to us. But as we sat with this director, he said, listen, she's turning 18 in just a few months. This is your last window where you have control. Um, I would strongly encourage you to leave her here. You know, and and just let us have her for, you know, we left her there for four months. It's really tough. Um, they wanted her there for a year, but I mean it was super pricey. It was it was a miracle, even the way God provided for us to put her there, because even that four months was like 60 grand or something like that that we had to come up with that I didn't have. Um, you know, and it was but God really was kind in the way it all came together. But I think that the way Megan and I went through it together was prayerfully and open-handedly and asking, you know, that that Abba would lead us. And then in that, um, taking each step together. And there were a lot of times it's tough. I think parenting is tough on a marriage. Um, I think Megan and I, you know, would be a whole lot richer and probably get along a whole lot better if we had didn't have kids that like that we had to work through life with. But I do feel like that um put it being put in those tense circumstances together actually is what's forged us and made us stronger and made us a unit that travels better together and the two becoming one is the miracle, right? And I think it's through trials, through hard things that that bond happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Wow. I I love that you can you can say that, right? And that's a I hope that's encouraging to anybody listening. I know it's encouraging to me to think, okay, you know, the hardships often is where the Lord gets more of us. Right. So it's like, Lord, why does it have to be that way? You know, but but he has good in it. And he has had good in it. It sounds like it strengthened your marriage and and probably family unit, you know, in a lot of ways. Probably you didn't expect, right? As hard as as hard as that was. You know, any are there any kind of while we're thinking while we're talking about that? Because I feel like, you know, you all uh you and Megan had to have kind of a base there to be able to go withstand something like that and be to uh together on it, unified on it. You're both loving the Lord, seeking the Lord, and that, like you mentioned. What did that look like even before that? You and her, is there a routine that you all have where you're both communicating or you're both spending time together, or I don't know, just how have you cared for Megan in a way that's like built that relationship? So you all were ready to go face that.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, you know, I I honestly feel like like tribulation has kind of bound us together through the whole thing, you know. I think that um, you know, for a number of years I pastored before I started running my own business. I think that I came in and out of entrepreneurship and pastoring through the years, you know, and you know, so business, business tribulation, I think, kind of works you through it. Um, I know for me, they uh we had been married eight years, um, and I was pastoring at the time. And I got too close to another single lady that um really ended like really hard with the church that I was at, you know, and even though, you know, it didn't turn adulterous and it didn't turn anything like that, it was just too much proximity and the church wasn't wasn't in a healthy spot, and they spun it um and really hung a lot of the ills of the church on me um as being the reason for it and like made the whole thing public and renounced my pastorate and it was like this huge traumatic experience. Um, that I was I was I was a young guy, I was 28. Um and you know, I had come up in this church, you know, and and gotten born again and immediately plugged in. So it was very, very shaking. And Megan and I actually moved over it, you know. We were in Southern California at the time, we moved up here to Oregon, and as traumatic as that was, and Megan had to choose like who is she gonna believe? Was she gonna believe things they were saying or was she gonna believe what I was saying? And I was a wreck. Like I was just emotionally just not well because I I couldn't believe what was happening and what it was, what was being said and what it was and what it wasn't, and all these different pieces. But I felt like Megan and I pulled away and moved up here to Oregon and we didn't know anybody here. You know, we moved up here because there was a church up here that we felt safe with. Um, it had kind of been like had had discipled us through the years from afar. And we moved up here, and I think it was Megan and I against the world. You know, we had these four little kids. My oldest was five, you know, so it was like five, three, two, and Joy had just been born. And it was my fault, it was my failure. But Megan's forgiveness and willingness to say, hey, we're gonna lean into this together. And I felt like that was the best thing that could have ever happened to us, you know, even though it was very tumultuous and it was very uprooting and like our whole family lived in Southern California. So to move to Oregon, we took all the grandkids with us when we moved, you know, it was like a very tumultuous time. But I felt like it bonded us tighter because we allowed like that hard thing to be something that for sure we had to work through and for sure it was not easy. And there are a lot of tears and a lot of hard things, but it bound us together, you know, and I think that that kind of has been Megan and my way all the way through it of as we go through hard things together, we're committed to like to do this together, you know, and we're gonna lean into each other and we're not just gonna try and stand independently, but we're gonna lean into the Lord together, you know, and allow him, like if like the psalmist talks about, like unless the Lord builds the house, you know, they labor in vain who build it, you know, unless the Lord is watching the city, those wake and they lay awake in vain, thinking they're gonna guard it, you know what I mean? And I think that that's that's the heart, I think, that um has really helped Megan and I. And then obviously, like practices like you're talking about, like a weekly date night. Like, I think that's really important to do. Like, I'm gonna take time out of my week. And even if that's just going out to get a dessert or just a walk around town or going out to dinner or whatever it is, like make an intentional time to listen to her and then like to build her up and and you know, for us to encourage each other back and forth. Where would we be without the brides the Lord has given us? That's right. I mean, all of my mistakes, man. I think they that God has been so kind to give me the woman she's given me for sure, that he's given me.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Speak to uh confronting just maybe lies that you were confronted with. Uh, you know, it's like uh during either of those seasons, you know, probably of guilt or fear or self-blame or you know, and how you walk through those as a father, you know, even leading your daughter through this thing. I mean, I could just see myself thinking, man, what did I do? You know, why didn't I do this other thing? Or yeah, speak to that.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I think that um I think negative self-talk is um really, really dangerous. And I think it's something that um I can really struggle with, you know. And I know for like the first I'd say for the first like five or six years after what happened between Megan and I, you know, early on in our marriage, it took me years to come out of the tailspin, like of just like shame and guilt and um negative thoughts towards self, like even self-loathing, you know. I mean, like coming out of that. Um, I think that what brought me out of that was um recognizing how father sees me. And like that wasn't what Megan thought about me. That's not what anybody else thought about me, but I couldn't let myself off the hook, you know? And and I think that over time, it took me years to get to this spot. I mean, honestly, I even I I'd say it was been within the last few years of realizing even in that, there was some subtle pride, um, a subtle pride of thinking that I should have been better, thinking that I should have known more, instead of realizing, no, no, no, like the only thing good about me is what Jesus has put in me. The only thing that's good about me is what God is doing in my heart on a daily basis. And I can get proud over past successes and try and hang that on my shoulders. No, up to that point, before I had that big fallout with the church, everything I touched turned to goal. Nothing I had ever gone through had I experienced anything like that before. And I'd been super successful in everything I had ever done. And then there was a yeah, there was a stretch of like 10 years where I felt like nothing I could do worked. You know, I mean, start kicking off with that, you know, and it was just like a continual uphill battle. But I feel like that those 10 years to me were the best years because I felt like it made me so much more approachable and so much more relatable and so much more kind to other people going through things like that to realize that none of us are perfect. And I can either load myself and get stuck in self. Self-negativity and be hard on myself. Or I can say, Lord, align me with what you think about me. Realize I don't have to tell everybody my story. You know what I mean? Not everybody even wants to know everything. You know what I mean? Especially if it's going to take me into a path of self-loathing. Like, like tell people the pieces that you feel comfortable telling until he brings you to a spot you're able to tell. I don't think I was able to tell my story for like probably almost 15 years before I could even talk about some of the things that I that went happen happened back at that church and struggles Megan and I went through. And then the whole thing that happened with Joy, I think as I began talking with people about my own frailties, I feel like vulnerability breeds vulnerability. And then we can actually get at some of the hard stuff. But like negative self-talk and self-loathing, like that, that doesn't serve anybody. That's not helping me. Didn't help me. It just helped me stay down instead of realizing father's coaching me to keep on going. Yeah, you fell. Get up, keep running. Like I was excited, took four steps. Let's shoot for five next time. Let's shoot for six next time. Like let's keep moving, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Yeah. What we tell ourselves matters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

And I take it back to, you know, how what we're telling ourselves, what we're taking in often from God's word or what we believe about God, you know, it just, oh man, it informs so much of those things that we think. And love that, oh man, uh, that's hard. That is so hard, right? In those times where we want to self-blame. And I think about I think you talk a lot about just being consistent, right? And and I think in both business and families, you know, speak to what does say consistent leadership and maybe switching gears just a little bit, but there's still an emotional component here. But what does consistent leadership look like, say when emotions are are high, so you know, and and there's not much clarity and and that could be in the family unit or that could be uh in the I know you you you're really good at bringing clarity in in a chaotic situation in in businesses. So you can speak to either side of that as leading your family or you know, in in businesses as well. Uh just that that constant leadership, your consistent leadership.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

I really believe like whether we're talking family or business, because I, you know, the collab team, we we run operations for all kinds of visionaries. You know, we we you know have a team of 22 people, you know, we're we're I client load right now is like 28 different businesses we're in the middle of running operations for, you know. So it's like we I'm in the middle of visionary chaos every single day at a high velocity, let alone my own. You know what I mean? Like me running my own business. You know, I I think that um, you know, I have a there's a pastor that it was actually a pastor up here in Oregon that brought us up here that was really foundational in my young walk with the Lord that always used to say um this one sentence, and I felt like it was so good. And he said, do what you know and you'll know what to do. And I think that a lot of times we confuse it. I think a lot of times you make it more complex than it is. I think a lot of times we're like seeking out some new guru or reading some new book or looking for some new angle instead of just no, no, you know what you should be doing. Just do the things you know, you know. And so just this last year I kicked off um a Facebook group called uh just be consistent. And I really think that's what it's really about. And it's just about goals, right? It's like, what are your goals for for this year? You know, and and come in and drop them in here publicly in front of all of us. And then every Monday we're just gonna check in. How did you do with your goals this week? Like, and just to have to tell somebody on how I did, you know, for mine, mine are largely around fitness, you know what I mean? So I've got metric goals that I have around my fitness. And every Monday I've got to come and post them. And then I just ask people, you know, that are face faith-based, realize not everybody in the group's gonna be faith-based. But if you're faith-based and you have prayer requests, drop them here, you know, because I've just found there's a lot of power in accountability in front of people and asking for prayer. I've seen God really move powerful ways, you know, through the years. And so I really do believe a lot of it is just consistency, like stating this is what I'm gonna set out to do. And then I'm gonna check in with somebody to make sure that I'm gonna stay consistent in that week after week. I really do believe, though, that whether it's in business or it's in your own personal life relationally, a lot of times we resist the things that are hard. We lean into the things that come easiest to us, and our our life is the result a lot of times, instead of just like, no, no, no, consistently do the hard things because that's where you're gonna take ground. But if you always shy away from that thing that you don't like doing, but you know you should be, then you're always gonna stay stuck. You're always gonna be stuck here. And and I hate seeing people stuck.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Consistently do the hard things. I keep telling my kids they don't like that though. And I don't like it either most of the time, right? None of us do.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Of course. Like, of course it'd be great to lay in bed. Like, of course it would be great to not, but I just feel like, man, if you don't get up and push yourself, like the way we build muscle in a very simple way, like if you want to get stronger, if you're not doing something that challenges your muscles, you're never gonna grow. They're like that. That's that's just a principle of life, you know, and it's true when it comes to emotional, it's true when it's come to mental. It's it's all it's true when it comes to spiritual. Like, take on the hard things, don't shy away from them, because the way you're gonna become that man you want to be is by pushing back and pushing against hard things that were that seem like they're too heavy. That last rep, right? They always tell you, like lift to fail, right? So I'm like, I if I can just I got to seven last week, if I can just lift this weight, like in this, like just one more, just get one more push to fail. But that's how you're tearing muscle down for it to build back stronger.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Speak to maybe a a system or a rhythm that you've seen to help guys who are just in chaos to start to gain some some clarity or to start to see those hard things that hey, they they need to go focus on instead of something else.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yeah. So I would say for me, like my morning rhythm is really important. And it, my morning rhythm is very simple. Um, but I think that right when I get up, I try and practice three things. And I've got it, it's uh it's a journal format I would share with anybody that wanted it, anybody that wants to ask for it. But it's in Evernote. But my journaling format starts out with three things. Um, and so I'll get up and this is what I'll start with every single morning, and that is practice gratitude. I'll practice remembrance, which for me is remembering times that the Lord has seen me through things. So I always cut talk about preservation theme. That was the what God spoke to my heart is I had that whole church fallout. And I we had when we moved up here, um, we didn't have anything when we first moved up here. In fact, I didn't even know we were moving up here when we came up here. The church confronted me on it, you know, and it turned into this big explosive thing, and they're like, hey, we just need you to leave town for a week while we figure out what we're gonna do and how we're gonna handle your situation. So we drove to Oregon. That's all we knew to do. And we got up here and we were staying in a hotel, and then they told me they were gonna like renounce my pastorate and they were gonna do it publicly. And I couldn't even get back down there in time for when they were gonna take it public. And it was like this whole terrible sideways thing. So we just decided, you know, there was um, I had run skateboard snowboard shops for years before I had pastored, and there was one of those shops was up here. And so I reached out to the owner of the business and I'm like, hey, I know you had a house up here. Is there any way we could crash there? And he said, Well, you know, it's it's up for sale right now, but you can you can stay there while we're trying to sell it. So we were just spread out in sleeping bags on the floor for the first month of this vacant house while they were trying to sell it. You know, we'd have to roll up all of our stuff and put it in the closets when somebody came and walked through was very traumatic, very traumatic window of time, you know. And but I'll remember, I remember God spoke to my heart. I was brushing my teeth in this house that was that they were trying to sell, and God spoke to my heart heart the word remembrance. And I'm like, what does that even mean? And then I start seeing preservation theme, this word preservation theme all the way through the Psalms. Like David talks about preserve me. You've preserved me against evil. You've preserved like I just started seeing it everywhere. So anyway, part of my daily practice is gratitude, and like I pick out things I'm grateful for, remembrance, preservation theme. I'll think back on things that God has seen me through to remind myself, no, no, you're gonna get through this. Whatever the hard things you're facing right now, you've already been here before. He's seen you through it and you're gonna see through it now. So gratitude, remembrance, and then um exchange. For me, I really believe there's a power in saying, God, I'm gonna hand off to you everything that I'm most worried about today, so that I can take what you say is gonna happen for me today. Like I'm gonna hand off the things I'm worried about. So for me, a lot of times it's family, it's business. God, I bring these big heavy things to you, and I'm just gonna practice exchange this morning and hand it off to you and pray that you would give me your life, your insights, what I need for today. So for me, it's just those three things. Every morning when I wake up, I'm gonna get up out of bed and I'm gonna journal. This is what I'm grateful for, and this is what I remember that God has done for me, and this is what I'm gonna exchange and hand off today. And for me, it's been just a game changer for me. This last I've been doing it probably for the last 10 years or so, and it really has been a game changer in my life.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Love that. I love the consistency of that, but the the remembrance right of what the Lord has done, just every day reminding ourselves and because we need it. And I did a big planning day actually last week uh for this next year. And one of the first things that I was doing, leading some other men at the same time through this. And one of the first things we did was like, we're gonna reflect back to remind ourselves what the Lord has done. Because I need the reminder, you know. So so often I'm like, okay, Lord, where are you at? You know, but I'm forgetting, man. No, he actually, wait a minute, he showed up every time. You know, he showed up every time in the past, but I'm so quick to forget, all right, and and become fearful. And so I love that. That just man, it's simple. These, these things, these three things in the morning. Yeah. Speak to, you know, when you think about legacy as a father and a husband, what do you hope your children say about uh about maybe your leadership, say years from now?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I think the thing that I hope most about my kids saying about me, you know, obviously I want them to know like that they were loved. I want them to know that um that I thought ahead about their future. You know what I mean? Like I'd like them to have a strong financial legacy. I'd like to have all these things. I think the most important thing for my kids to know, though, is that anything good in our lives all came from being rooted in Jesus. Like that Megan, Megan and my relationship, we've made it 30 years, not because we're something amazing, not because we haven't had problems, not because it's always been easy, not because we haven't been broke. Yeah. I mean, like the the reasons we've made that is because we've come and said, Lord, you're our source. We're gonna come stay connected in you and trust you're gonna work us through the other things and you're gonna give us insights in business and you're gonna give us insights in parenting and you're gonna help us to work through when relationally marriage is hard because relationships are hard, you know. But what I want them to know is, yeah, my dad loved me well. Yeah, he was he did great things in business and for God's kingdom. But more than anything, I just know that it wasn't because he's something great. It was because he stayed connected. Because I feel like that for all of us, all of our stories are gonna be a little bit different. Their stories are gonna be a little bit different. But if they'll realize that just like just like my phone, you know, I mean, like every night I've got to plug this thing in. If I want this thing to work for me the next day, it's gonna be dead by the end of today. That's a guarantee, you know what I mean? If I don't plug that thing in every night, it's gonna be dead by tomorrow morning. Like I want them to know if I don't stay plugged in to the person of Jesus, like I can't hope for any good things to work out in my life. Or if I do, it's a very short-lived window until that battery dies and then I'm tapped. And so I really want my kids to know, hey, if you see anything good in me, that's only because I stayed tapped into the source. And these are the fruits, these are the fruits of life, like that, not perfect, not always working out like in in the way I maybe expected it to, but it all works out. Like he's working all of it together for good. What the enemy intended for evil, the Lord's intending for good, he's gonna he's gonna use all of it if I'll just stay plugged into the source. That's what I'd like my kids to know. Love that.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Yes, that's incredible. Any anything that is good comes from him, no doubt about it. Aaron, if you could challenge the men listening with one action they can take, uh, say this week, you know, especially those facing hard decisions like that, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Man, I would say, um, and this may be counterintuitive, I would say whatever you're facing that's hard this week, I know that's probably gonna be the thing that's top of your mind. Um, and you're gonna want to be challenged thinking through how do you solve that. I would say, first, let's start with your foundation, man. Are you like, are you doing what you know? Like, are you doing there's probably something you know you should be working on that's gonna make you a healthier, better version of yourself. And I know this thing up here seems like it's what you're up against right now. And that's probably true. But a lot of times I feel like this thing that we're up against is so that we drill down on where am I centered? You know what I mean? Like what's centering me? What where am I gonna look to for that answer? And I would just say, ask yourself, well, what's your foundation looking like? What are the foundational things in your life looking like? Do you how are you healthy emotionally? Are you healthy physically? You know, are you healthy mentally? Is there something in one of those areas that you just know there's something you should be doing that you're not doing? Just start with that. Because I feel like a lot of times all of the noise gets a lot clearer when I just start doing the things I know I'm supposed to be doing. And then I really believe that um our sanctification, right? Us becoming more like God, us becoming more, more in his image comes from just one steady step in front of the other. You know what I mean? So like take that first step. And I feel like it's gonna lead you into the next step and just take one step at a time. And so I would say probably ask yourself, what's that thing that you know? Do what you know, you know what to do. Like I would say root into that. If any of you guys are stuck, Whitney, like I'd I I would love just to offer up, you know, whether you're stuck in business or you're stuck in family, or it'd like I'd love to be available to you, you know, and and so I put together uh a link for you to go to. You can just go to the collab team. That's my business, the collab team.com forward slash Whitney. Um, and you can just book a time with me, you know, and I'd love to help you. I feel like I'm I'm helping business owners, visionaries, dads a lot every single day. And I'd love to just offer that to your people.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

I I'm grateful, Aaron. I'm grateful to have gotten to know you over the last couple of years, I guess, now, and and spent some time with you. And if any man listening is is dealing with chaos and especially in their business or even at home, but man, that's that's Aaron's business is bringing consistency, bringing clarity to that. And so I just hope you will take him up on that, uh, reach out to him. Aaron, anything else they need to know from you before before our time is up?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

I think just Whitney, thank you, man. Thank you for time with you. Um, I I have loved, you know, I know we met in Pete Vargas's Mastermind The Wellspring, and you and I were in a pod together, and I just knew straight out of the gate, man. Humblehearted, like servant king, like you just have such a good heart, man. And I'm just I've been grateful to get to know you, grateful to pray for you and your bride and your kids, you know, by name, and just to be connected with you, man. So I'm just grateful for time with you, and thanks for bringing me in.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

No, I'm grateful for you. Thank you so much for being just so transparent and vulnerable and we allowing us to just learn uh from how the Lord has grown you, your family through hardship, right? No doubt many listening are dealing with hardships that they're probably not telling anyone and need help and probably are encouraged by you. So thank you for that in a big way. Of course, of course. Thank you, brother.