The World is Your Oyster - A Deep Dive on the Master Mason Degree

In this episode, co-hosts Chris Crume and Matt Salyer take a deep dive into the Master Mason degree in the third of a 3-part deeper dive into the three degrees of Freemasonry.  Many feel the Master Mason degree is the culmination of their journey, but see why we see it as just the beginning in this discussion talks about all things Master Mason.  This episode also features part 2 of our wide ranging interview with Past Grand Master, MWB William M. Carter III!  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

This is Beyond the Door, Exploring the Light of Freemasonry. Hello, and welcome again to Beyond the Door, Exploring the Light of Freemasonry. I am Chris Kroom and once again joined by my co-host, Matt Salier. How's everybody doing? Today I think we have a really special discussion lined up where we're finishing up that part three of that three-part series, talking about the different degrees and taking that deep dive. So we'll really be hitting Master Mason today. And I think, boy, we could go for hours on that.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Yeah, this is it's got a lot of gravitas, this one. Yeah. Buckle up.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

A lot of gravitas, a lot of meaning, a lot of symbolism. Hopefully we do it justice.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Yeah, big hopefully there.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

And you know what? If we don't, I'm sure our listeners are going to let us know, and we can always revisit this.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Probably have to at some point, right? Uh, there's bound to be somebody, an expert on this that's smarter than us. So we might be able to get in here and talk about it a little bit more coherently.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Absolutely. I think most people that listen to this are probably smarter than us anyway. At least on certain topics for sure, for sure. I would say on pretty much every topic, at least for me, speaking for myself. I I don't know. But we've got that. Plus, we also have part two of our wide-ranging interview with most worshipable brother William M. Carter III. If you haven't listened to the first part of this, he really drops some pearls of wisdom in that interview. Yeah, I think you're gonna really love the second part too.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

All right, in typical fashion, we want to share some of the upcoming happenings in the 19th district here. So Tuesday, April the 7th at 7:30 p.m., Newark number 97 will have its dated meeting. The following day, Wednesday the 8th at 7 p.m., the 19th Masonic District Association will have its meeting at aerospace number 800. Saturday, April 11th, and Saturday, April 25th from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m., the Newark Temple will have the Licking County Historical Society Passport Tours. Saturday, April the 18th at 9 a.m., Jackson number 85 will have its inspection. Thursday, April 23rd at 7 p.m., Farmers No. 153 will have their inspection. Friday, April 24 at 7 p.m., Plainfield number 224 will have their inspection. And then finally for April, Monday, April 27th at 7 p.m., Three Rivers number 799 will have their inspection.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Quite a few inspections there to round out the month.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah, and best of luck in those brothers. Yeah. I know everybody's worked hard on them.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah, we know that you know they're not easy. And sometimes we you know, I feel like, you know, it's just degree work, right? It shouldn't, we shouldn't get as anxious about some of these as we do. It's the extra eyeballs.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

You think so? I mean, I can only speak for one man, and it's always the extra eyeballs for me.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yeah, I just, you know, I think we lose sight sometimes, though, that it it's it's just degree work. It's what we do day in, day out when we do it.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

And on an intellectual level, you're a hundred percent right. But my anxiety apparently doesn't speak that language.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Uh you know, uh my anxiety usually doesn't, but somehow I'm able to twist that and just say, uh, it's just degree.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

This one for us was different, not to not to go into that, but this did feel a lot more relaxed this year for some reason.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yeah, I think it was a it was a year where we solidly practiced. We knew, you know, we knew the candidate. We'd already done the EA for that candidate recently, and it it did feel a little bit more relaxed. It didn't feel like all the eyeballs were piercing. It felt like there was a lot less tension. Yeah. Yeah, a lot less tension. But it was kind of fun to be able to pour, you know, rocket fuel on that candidate and get him through his fellowcraft degree so he could be an inspection candidate yet again at a Master Mason degree, which is kind of cool to be a double inspection candidate. In only a matter of weeks, too. Yeah, and again, that's because of some special circumstances, but you know, doesn't typically go that fast.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

But it was a heck of an experience for him, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Oh, what an experience to have all those eyeballs and all those people there for two of your degrees.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

He was really appreciative too.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yeah, no, and it was a great degree. You know, our our brothers at Acme or at Acme 554 uh were able to do the uh Master Mason degree for him, which was really cool. He got to have two degrees in the same building by two different lodges. With different styles, nonetheless. With different styles, different people in the chairs. An experience that most people will never ever have. Very, very unique, yes. So it it again, it reminds me kind of my own. It reminds me of some of my, you know, my dad's stuff, but it's a heck of an experience.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah. So again, brothers, with the upcoming inspections, best of luck. Again, we know you worked hard. Hope to see you there.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

And get out and travel if you've already had yours, or even if you haven't, get out there and travel, visit these last four inspections that are on the docket, and take the time to just have some fellowship, see some degree work, make these last ones super special. Let's you know, I'd love to see a hundred people at them. Couldn't agree more. All right. So talking about the Master Mason degree, you know, as I sat and prepared for this and thought about it, boy, I feel inadequate to talk about it. You know, I think I'm always learning and I'm always seeing something different in this degree. And part of me is like, I don't even know where to start. A lot of that, yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

And I think you summed up my feelings really well there, too, because there's a lot here. There's just an awful lot of symbolism that's involved, some a bit more subtle than others. And as I kind of tried to think of the best way to kick this thing off, it w we talked about the inner apprentice, right? And how from from a symbolic standpoint, that's youth.

SPEAKER_06 6:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

And we talked about the fellowcraft degree, how again, symbolic standpoint, that's manhood. Master Mason symbolically then becomes age. Age. You are you are approaching the end of your life.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

But are you approaching the end of the end of your life? Is it more like it's age I I look at it almost as ages in wisdom? You you you start as you know, an entered apprentice, young, green, not necessarily understanding anything. Then you get to the Master Mason or the fellowcraft degree, you understand the basics, right? Now you're taking a little bit deeper dive into that. And then you get to the master mason's degree, now it's like, okay, I've figured some stuff out. And I'm starting to gain that wisdom that's going to carry me on in that journey.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

So you're not wrong. The way I look at it though, is one of it it's like other more ancient initiation rituals. You have the reason that you now know things is because you've gone through trials, you've gone through tribulations, and there's a transcendence that occurs, right? Yeah. And what is that transcendence?

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Well, it's age and wisdom. Symbolic death. Symbolic death. You know, the interesting thing that I think about as you were talking about you know, that symbolism there, you know, we think of, oh, Master Mason, that's the penultimate degree. It's it's the third degree, it's the last degree, right? But it's really the beginning. Well, yeah, it is, of course, the beginning of the absolute beginning of your journey. Because everything opens up to you and you can go in so many different directions after that Master Mason degree.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yes. I I certainly don't disagree with that.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

I I still think it's almost like the ended apprentice degree for everything else.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Yeah, I just go back to that. I never felt like I arrive anywhere. There's never been that like one moment for me. Yeah. So but you're you're right. I mean, the the doors are kind of blown open then at that point because you've got uh opportunities for appendant bodies, you have the ability to travel more, go to other lodges, yeah, things of that nature. Because at with that degree, you're not going to be closed out if they happen to be opening in Master Mason, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Well, and again, entered apprentice. The door of Freemasonry is open, right? But it's one door. Master Mason degree, all the doors are now open to you.

SPEAKER_06 9:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

You know, you can go and do whatever you like. You can you can really take it in a bunch of different directions.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

And hopefully one of those directions will be sitting down and thinking about what you just went through.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Well, that's the hope, right? I and I think, you know, the more that you read, find a, you know, find an author you like that talks about Freemasonry that helps you digest it, right? Don't just, you know, you can obviously digest it on your own and just contemplate and meditate on that. Find an author that you like that really helps you understand.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

I would peel that back just a little bit and say one that is maybe not way out in the weeds.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Well, yeah, I think you can you can get very heavy very quick.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Aaron Powell There are brothers out there who have written very, very good books that are well researched, and then there are, you know, others. Like us. Well, I was more I was more referring to the conspiratorial sorts that would that that assume that we like shed human skin when we walk in for our meetings. You don't? I don't think anybody wants to see that.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Oh, okay. I mean, I might be one of those lizard people, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Your eyes are a little too human for anybody that uh Chris is licking his own face right now.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

You know, just like just like the geckos. Now you're gonna sell me insurance? I might. But you know, again, as we diverge a little bit, there are so many doors opened at that mastermason degree. There's the uh there's the door, obviously, to contemplate. You know, you can start down the York Right Path, which is a path you know available here in our own building. You can start down the Scottish Right Path, which has a lot of different, you know, entry ramps onto it. Grotto is another perfect example of something that you can start. And I don't know a lot of people know about the grotto, too.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Well, Shriners now.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

And the Shriners, yeah. The Shriners now as well. Tall Cedars of Lebanon. That's one that I'm actually very, very interested in.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

That's one that you told me about recently that I wasn't familiar with.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Yeah, it's it's a little bit more obscure, but it's one that I'm actually super interested in and hopefully be able to pursue sooner rather than later. But I'll bring you on that journey. Is there any are there any of those lodges around here? I haven't done that research yet. That's on my to-do list, right? The the to-do list that never ends. But uh But you know, coming back to that Master Mason degree, I think, you know. My initial thoughts go back to, you know, my degree experience, right? And I think we had both we we had profoundly different experiences because yours was as an inspection candidate, correct? Correct. And mine was at the outdoor service or the outdoor degree that's done typically in the summers here in central Ohio. Aaron Ross Powell, which I have heard nothing but good things about. You've never attended. I have not. Well, I think you're gonna have to mark your calendar this year to get out to that.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

No, no, it's it's definitely much like you just said about the never-ending to do list. It's it has been on that list for at least the last three years running. And then for whatever reason, the the universe, I say or say in quotes here, doesn't want me there. Something comes up.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

But you know, I also think about, too, as we as we talk about the experience of this degree, because I think there is a there's a very profound experience to be had with this degree. You were inspection candidate. I was a you know, outdoor candidate, and our you know, newly raised brother, you know, in our lodge, an inspection candidate twice over, but going through it, same building, different lodge. And and the profound experience that that had, you know, with him. And and everybody has a different experience with this, I think.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Well, what matters obviously is the people putting it on, doing setting it up right for the candidate.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean it's and it's a tough degree to do. It it really is.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Oh, unquestionably.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

It is a tough degree to do. There is a lot, you know, you'd think there's a lot of memorization in the other degrees. Well, not only that, but the the cast of characters. I mean just getting enough people to be able to do that. I mean, I think in the 19th or in the 19th district, we're fortunate to have the Tri-County Travelers, which, you know, if you're not familiar, the Tri-County Travelers here in the 19th are a group of brothers from all the lodges here in the 19th district that get together, practice the second section of the Master Mason degree specifically because of the number, the sheer number of characters that are needed, and then go out and assist other lodges in performing that so that the brother that's going through that degree gets the full, honest experience.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

And it takes a little bit of pressure off the individual lodge, too, who only has to at least be a part-time casting director.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it it helps out. And again, I to me, it's all about the candidate experience, right? Of course. That's exactly what it's about. You don't have to worry about saying, oh, okay, well, there's only going to be, you know, half the cast of character, so they're not going to get the full experience of that. Every time when the Tri-Counties show up, boom, full cast, everybody's ready to rock and roll. But, you know, it it to me, it's just one of those that it makes the experience. It it really gives a the full breadth of what we're trying to encapsulate in that degree.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Well, and there's some consistency to it too, with that group of guys.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Yeah. Now, I will say, if you're a brother out there listening and you haven't joined the Tri-County Travelers, especially a younger brother, that is something to get involved with. They meet on the fifth Wednesday of when there's a fifth Wednesday in a month over at Aerospace at 7 o'clock. You know, you're a new brother, you're looking to get involved, or, you know, a younger brother, get involved with that. Because, you know, let's face it, if we don't get involved as younger brethren, pretty soon we're going to come to a fork in the road where we don't have somebody to do, you know, that knows how to do all that floor work. We're going to come to a point where somebody, we don't have somebody that knows that lecture, somebody that doesn't know that charge because we've never practiced it, right? You know, you know, our our seasoned veterans, I love them to death, but they're the only ones that know a lot of this stuff. Are you suggesting, Chris, that knowledge can be lost? Knowledge can absolutely be lost. And I think that's one of the interesting things with the Master Mason degree, right? We talk about that knowledge. And to me, that's one of the profound lessons of the Master Mason degree is that knowledge can be lost.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

I I can't believe I shoehorned that in so well, frankly. But no, it it's that's actually was very, very high on my list of discussion for purposes of this degree is kind of that that symbolic the symbolic meaning of the degree and it's how how the knowledge is something that is not necessarily infinite, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Absolutely. Well, knowledge is something to not and I look at it, knowledge is something to be protected, right? Knowledge is something to be protected because you don't want knowledge to just get out sometimes, right? And and I think again, as you know, as we dive through this degree, you'll see that there's people there are people that maybe don't deserve the knowledge that crave that knowledge, right? And wouldn't take it by any means well, they want to take it without earning it.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Yes, I would certainly agree with that statement.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Yeah. And but that knowledge, if it's taken without earned, can be lost very easily.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

And in certain instances, it can also be misinterpreted when somebody is not ready for it. Correct. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

You know, we talk about, you know, how you know degrees do feel the same, but I don't think, you know, I think the inner apprentice and the fellow craft can have some familiar feeling in that first section of the degree, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

It feels again, I'm uh this is one man's opinion, but it felt like there was a little bit more continuity between the two of those. And I think the Master Mason intentionally starts to lean into the that continuum a little bit and then abruptly takes a right turn. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Yeah. Well, you know, and I think, you know, as you go through, you know, fellowcraft and master mason, there's a lot of similarity. Obviously, there's you know, circumambulations might be a little bit different, right? Given what you know, the degree is in. You know, coming to the door like we always do is always the same. I mean, that's the same through all three degrees. And, you know, a lot of it is similar. Now the obligation, I will say.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Well, it's not just the length of it, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:31

It's also it's the weight.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Well, the weight of it, yes. But I also appreciate how the candidates are placed when taking that one. Yes. That one is a little bit different. They're a little bit they're more ready for action.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

They're all in. And a little bit less discombobulated. They're all in. Yeah. They're all in 100% ready to go. And and again, uh I think you know, with the length of it, it's more the the weight of everything, too.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

There's a immense amount in there, right? Particularly with respect to the brotherhood and how the brotherhood should be treated, all of those things.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

You're given some very direct saying you're gonna do this, you're not gonna do that in this, you know, in that in that, you know, obligation, right? I mean, it's some very specific Oh, it's uh oddly and uncomfortably specific in certain instances. It can be very uncomfortably specific, but you know, you think about it, and I go back again, I keep going back to some of the ancient manuscripts that we talked about way back in what episode two, something like that. And that's where I think some of that, you know, it's like an employee handbook, right? That's where some of that comes from. If you if you look at that and it's like, hey, don't do that, right? It's not proper. Well, it it maintains the peace. Yes, it maintains the peace.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

It keeps, you know, who can best, you know, agree, right? Well, not only that, but what uh what are some of the things that we've discussed before, right? Circumscribing our desires.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yeah. I mean, it keeps that, you know, it keeps that in the forefront of your mind, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:23

You yes, you're you're kind of boxed in in a good way. Yeah. Right. You you aren't you're charged with not really going out there with a with a head full of steam and leading a hedonistic life, right? You temperance. Yes. You are rightfully kind of restricted in your actions to to and you're encouraged to kind of think ahead. Yeah, you're understand cause and effect.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Think about your action, actions and the consequences that they will have. Exactly. And making sure that you know you're respecting all of humanity, I think, is really the that to me is how I take it. No, you're not you're not wrong at all. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Obviously, we talk about it, you know, it you know, in light of you know, respecting your fellow Mason, but I think it's really all in all humanity. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

I it is, absolutely. I do think I do my opinion, again, is that you know the fraternity is a little bit in front of all of that. But i I agree with that interpretation. It's certainly not talking about taking advantage of, you know, non-members and things of that nature.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Aaron Powell Yeah. I mean it's it's it's about service, it's about treating your fellow human being really with basic dignity and respect, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Well, yeah, the golden rule. Yeah. I mean, I I think that's it doesn't come out and say it the way the golden rule does, but it's absolutely in there. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Yeah, there and there's some interesting parts of you know of that obligation that I always think back, you know, historically with. The founding of our country, right? And understanding that, you know, this country was founded on a revolution, right? And some of our most prominent founders were Masons, but thinking about, you know exactly what parts I'm thinking of, you know, not just of the obligation, but about about the charge and things like that, right? You know where I'm going. Oh, oh yeah. I do indeed. And and I find that interesting, you know, when you think about that as you've gone through these degrees and you come to that context, and hmm. I don't know. Well, what do you how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_02 22:31

I mean, I think I think it would be difficult not to point out a little bit in the way of a hypocrisy there, because Freemasonry predates this country and we obviously know what happened. So assuming that the signers of that declaration sat down and took the same obligation that you and I did, or s or a very close approximation to it, I think that it it seems very black and white on its face. But I also think that, and again, one man's opinion, not necessarily those of the Grand Lodge of Ohio, I think there's wiggle room in there. I think when I I think there has to be. There has to be, because again, because because if you're a good person and you're taking an obligation to essentially try to make the world a better place than it was when you entered it, you you can't look you can't stand by idly while injustice is occurring. Correct. Yeah. So I I think there's a higher calling in there.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Yes. Yes. And I agree with that. I just, you know, you I've always thought that, you know, as one of those, you know, thoughts as you know, over the years I've had when I, you know, hear the charge and I'm like, huh. It's it's interesting. And you know, maybe we can talk more about that uh at another time where we talk about some of our founders and found or you know, founding fathers and uh what they were going through, I guess, in the country at that time. But it it does, you know, it is also interesting that you know parts of what we talk about in these degrees do happen to find their way into the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, too.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Aaron Powell Well, I don't think there's any secret in that, really. It's anybody with the history channel's probably seen some of that occur. Oh, yeah. So it oftentimes takes a hard left and and strays off into the spec highly speculative, and I don't mean that in the Masonic sense.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yeah, no, I you're telling me that everything I see on TV is not true. Yeah, unfortunately not. Oh, well, that just shattered my reality today. But you know, you go through this degree, and I think the interesting thing ha really for me, the interesting piece of it happens right before the second section, where they set the tone for the second section without you as the candidate even knowing what's happening when we're called from labor to refreshment symbolically. You're you're you're changing to me that symbolic change right there sets the tone for everything that follows. To the extent that you can say in what way in the way that you know we're trans we're we're we're transporting ourselves from 2026 to a supposed ancient time, right? It's a it's that threshold that's being crossed over, right? We're setting the scene, we're setting the tone so that when the candidate comes back in for that second section, boom, now the drama that takes place, the this the tone, the time, the scene has been set. The last thing the candidate hears before they head out to go get dressed before that second section is you're called from labor to refreshment. And then what happens right after that when you come back in? Yeah, you're transported to another time and place. Oh, yeah, you were rewinding the clock three millennia. Yeah, absolutely. But that right, I love that profoundness because it sets the stage right there. And you don't even realize it as the candidate. Now, after you've gone through the degree, you realize, oh, we've we're we're to me, that's the time machine right there. You've literally set the clock back three millennia right there.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah, you're not wrong, and that is a distinction from the other two. Because you don't do that in the other two. You don't. I I'm thinking of the lectures and charges, though, that are speaking about similar times in history.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

They speak about it, but they don't take you back to it. Correct. Yeah. To me, that right there, that's the time machine. That's what sets you back three millennia, saying, okay, now you're gonna be a part of what happened three millennia ago.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

No, you're not wrong. If there was ever a time machine invented, that's it right there, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:05

I don't know that I would I don't know that that would be the point that I went back to, but it would be interesting for sure.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

I mean, Marty McFly wasn't there either, so I just want to see a dinosaur. I I don't think there were dinosaurs at that point either. There there were not. But that's where I think, again, I think coming into the the second section of this degree, that's where the symbolism really is not rat, you know, ratcheted up to a 10.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Oh, it's just I mean, it's dripping right off of the sponge. It's yeah, it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

I mean, you know It's everywhere and it's in every single character that is in that degree.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

It's not only character, but groups of characters. Groups of characters too, yeah. And I would be I'd be willing to bet a considerable sum of money that there's some numerology in there too. That's not something I'd actually ever thought of, is the numerology of it. I'm not confident enough in it to say for certain. I'm very confident in my interpretation of the groups themselves, but the numbers of which those groups are comprised, I'm less confident.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Yeah. I I'd have to read a numerology for dummies book to probably pick up on it, but I don't think you're wrong. I mean, there's let's let's be real, there's nothing accidental in any of these degrees, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:30

No, and and certainly not the master. Frankly, that's my exact point, right? Like everything is very, very precise. It is from the number of people chosen to do certain things to the the words in that are part of this drama. There are every single bit of this thing is thought out and harkens to either other portions of Masonic ritual or other bits of like ancient mystery schools and crafts. There are there are callbacks to things that it's as I said, it's dripping off the sponge, right? Like any any surface you touch relative to this degree is just sopping wet with with symbolism.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah. Well, and and and again, I think you know, you talked earlier about the symbolism of death. That that's really profound in this second section, right? It is. Death, but rebirth into your Masonic life at that point, really. And that's where I think, again, where I come back with the door metaphor that we had earlier, you know, there's the it's the rebirth into all of these new pathways, this rebirth into an enlightened state that you're never going to be perfect in, but boy, you're gonna try.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Well, and that's what and the exact reason that I was talking about some of the more ancient initiatory aspects of this is because it's a symbolic death. And I think it's designed to appear as a symbolic death in that you are you're in leaving something behind. You're leaving behind the boy, you're leaving, you're leaving behind the less informed, you're now aware of a higher calling.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Expound, because that I like where your train of thought goes on that.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

It's so oh god, it's been too long since I've read the Osiris myth, but Os Osiris killed by a brother, chopped into 14 pieces, spread around the world, right? Lost knowledge kind of stuff. Yeah. Try to put him back together. Think about think about the I think about Humpty Dumpty with that, but that's that's actually fair and probably a little bit more in line with my IQ. Nevertheless, coming back to coming back to masonry, you know, there's that there's that bit of kind of putting the various pieces of the psyche back together almost, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:03

You're you well, we always talk about you're building your moral and Masonic edifice. Correct. This is where you finally put that cement onto that, onto those bricks and make that edifice a foundation.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Correct. With with a moral compass that is pointing, hopefully, due north, right? That's the calling, knowing full well that we're all gonna stray a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Is it really due north, though?

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Well, I for for purposes of the compass, I'm gonna say due north.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Due north on the compass, but you mean the compass that you navigate with. Yes. Ah, so no, I think you're a hundred percent right with that. I think that, you know, it's the beginning. You know, we talk about it's the beginning of the journey, right? And I think the lecture really the lecture to me on this one really spells that out. It's the beginning of a journey. It talks about the end of your journey, but there's a lot of hope in that too.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Well, but I think that's a framing, I think that's done for framing. You think so? Oh, absolutely. I I think that there the one thing that always crosses my mind in this degree is that mortality is inevitable. And in thinking about that, it it really kind of puts things in perspective on what it is that you want to accomplish before that occurs.

SPEAKER_06 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Do you want to, do you want to like only live your life in the future or do you want to live your life in the present? Do you want, are there things that you wanted to do before you die? Is there a legacy that left you left behind? Are there memories that you want to create for your children? Instead of the day-to-day grind of I have to do X, Y, and Z before I close my eyes tonight, I think is there something that I can do here that is going to be a core memory maybe for my kids?

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Yeah, 100%. But I also think, you know, you talk about that mortality. It also talks about the immortality or the legacy that you are building and you are going to leave as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

And I think that I think that what is being done there is I think that we're being asked to think about how we want people to remember us.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Again, thinking about your own funeral a little bit ahead of time. You know, the the the exercise of, okay, if I died today, what would people say? You know, what what would the eulogy be given of my life? What would people say when they got to my That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

And and at least to my thinking, it changes the way people act in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Absolutely. Not just in the moment, but it also makes you think about the consequences your actions might have a day later, a week later, a year later, ten years later.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Aaron Powell And and look at it from the perspective of an argument. Do I want to walk away mad? What if what if that person's in a car accident? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

What if I'm in a car accident? What if that's the last thing we ever say to somebody?

SPEAKER_02 34:08

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

How do you reconcile that? How do they reconcile that if you leave it and you let it go? So I I there the profoundness of this degree really I I again, I every time I hear it, it's there's something else that I learned. There's something else that I gain from this degree. I don't know about you.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Well, no, it it's why did I say no to that? No, of course I agree. Uh it it I mean, we've we've covered this many times. Every time I see one of these degrees, it's very rare that my mind covers the same ground twice, right? I'll hear something different and it'll it'll resonate. Now, thematically, it might I might land on the same theme several times, particularly with this one, if I'm being honest. 100%. Because I think it's that pointed, right? This is this is a very there are points in this in particular that are very focal, and I think it's intentionally directing our thoughts in that direction. So it's, I mean, you know, it's coming right at you. You're not going to miss it. And again, thematically, my mind might cover that ground, but I'm it's not a broken record. Yeah. Right. I'm I'm gonna hear a different track. Yeah. Might be on that same theme, but I'm gonna hear a different track.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Yeah. Well, and you know, for me, you know, and and I will credit uh Red Worshipful Brother Morris for sending me on this path. And he's a guest that I know we're going to have on at some point to really talk about some of these really amazing concepts and precepts, you know, thinking about the esoteric and the the metaphysical part of Masonry. But take three degrees together. Internet apprentice is more about the body, right? It's about the body. I actually know where you're going with this. The fellowcraft is about the mind. The Master Mason is about the spirit. Yes, very much so. And I think that's where this degree can take you in so many directions. Because it's it's an awakening of the spirit, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Do you do you know what do you think is the first part that that becomes obvious? That it's about the spirit.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Again, I think it's at that middle point. Where do you where do you think it? Because that's for me, that to me is where again, we're s for me, it's at that middle part where we go from labor to refreshment. We're setting the tone, we're switching from the mind to the spirit at this point. Where does it switch for you?

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Obligation. Sports. When if you're shooting a basketball, where are your hands and where are your feet, hands, and face where are they pointed? All forward. At the hoop. Yeah. Throwing a baseball. Where where does your toe land? Where is your face where is your face?

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Usually the ball landed on my face.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Oh, okay. Well then I will help you on this one. You you point your toe in the direction you want the ball to go. You move your hands in the direction you want the ball to go. Your eyes are facing the direction you want your ball, the ball to go. When you are taking that obligation, where is your face? Where are your hands? Where are your knees? What are you pointing at? Everything's forward. At what?

SPEAKER_06 37:33

Well, the three great lights, of course. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

That's deep. That is deep. That is deep. You know, it is the only time that that happens. It is. Because it's always one or the other, or you know, there's a lot of, you know, there's different configurations there.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

And it's interesting. It's actually funny because when you said you're all in earlier, that's actually what I thought you meant.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Really? Well, uh I did mean that in the sense that that's the point where you're all in, but I didn't think of it as in the switch from the mind to the spirit right there. Yep. Uh no, I that that again, I think my mind's a little bit blown on that because again, it's not where I would have picked that transition to happen. You know, for me, I if you know if I'm really being honest, again, I think that midpoint, but the real transition for me is the raising. That's the transition. That's the the transcendental.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Well, and it's meant to be exactly that. Yes. It is meant to be transcendental.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Yeah. It is, you know, you are now transcending that whole drama. You're transcending everything that's happened. And now you're ready for that lecture, which is full of a lot of heady topics. I mean, the the the spiritual topics that are talked about in that are they they blow my mind still.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Well, and it it goes back to the initiatory stuff that I spoke to before. It's it's about personal transformation. It's about casting aside perhaps an old persona, right? Yeah. And kind of taking on that new persona that is a little bit more informed, that has a little bit more integrity, moral fertitude, moral furt fortitude. There you go. I use words good. Right? It's it's you're at least in theory leaving leaving something behind.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Yeah. You are. You you do. You leave well, you leave your old self behind.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Just as one does in death. Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

Profound. I love that. Well, you you're the one who brought up the spirituality. Yeah. Well, it is. But again, that's it's profound, and it's it's exactly what it's meant to be.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Right. And you in death, most of the world's religions believe that the consciousness, the spirit, something lives on. Yeah. And it might transcend this place and go somewhere else, but it lives on.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Yeah. And that's, I think, again, the symbolic raising is all about that. You still live on.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

It it is a metaphor, certainly, for what survives of you.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

Not just what survives. I think it's what thrives then too. All right. That's a good call. It you know, you're not, you know, the you know, death is not the end. It's the beginning, right? And I think that's what a lot of people don't necessarily realize. That can be the beginning of something brand new.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Well, and even if it's not actual death, right? There's that transformative aspect.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Mm-hmm. There's that, yeah, exactly. There's the transformative aspect. And I think it's the, you know, you look at it as it's a rebirth, it's a new beginning. It's the opening of all, like we said, the opening of all the doors at that point. Now you can pick your path with a much more enlightened viewpoint of the world. Yeah. I I I love the Master Mason degree. It is one of the most beautiful degrees out there.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

I mean, I'm still always partial to the fellowcraft degree, but I think everybody, everybody who's listened to any of these episodes knows where I stand on it. But I very much agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

Yeah. I mean, having gone through, you know, a lot of the Scottish right degrees, you know, there's obviously some obviously some beautiful degrees there, but I don't know the Master Mason degree, especially doing it outside. There's there's something about being connected to nature doing that degree. Aaron Powell Yeah. And I need to experience that. Yeah. And having experienced it as the candidate and then also as the, you know, on the sidelines, it's it hits different. It hits in a much different way. I I can't even describe how it hits.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

The candidate aspect, I think being in that role would probably obviously be ideal, but we can't be the candidate every time. Only one person gets to be the candidate every year. And and I don't think it would be Masonic of me to plant whoever that is this year and put me in their place.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

No, darn it, I'm taking this spot. Yes, planting that candidate's probably not the right way to go about anything.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

No, I I think it would be frowned upon if they just found some random dude in the weeds and me in his place. Right, worshipable brother Nickerson might have something to say about that. I think more than just him would would have words about my decorum if I were to just kind of do that. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

And I only say that because he was the district deputy who was there when I was raised. So he might take that personally. He just might. And he'd look at me and say, you brought this guy with you. Yeah, I could see that face. I can I can picture this. But no, you know, I going back to just, you know, everything I think we've talked about and we've hit on with this degree is there's so much more to talk about, right? And I think that I don't think we've done justice to anything we've talked about. I think we've bounced here, there, and everywhere. But I think that's the that's the interesting thing about the Master Mason degree is that it can take you in so many different directions. It can.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

And one of my Yes. I'm I'm kind of surprised that we haven't looked at the Spring of Acasia or anything.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

I mean I've got all night, but I I don't know about you. We could talk about the Spring of Acacia there, we could talk about you know so many more things.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

I feel like we're always trying to walk that tightrope. Like what can we say without stealing, you know, the secret from for the candidate and also sp you know just completely spilling our guts on on things that we shouldn't be spilling our guts on because we said we wouldn't, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Absolutely. And I think that's it. You're right. It's a fine line. I think we've done, you know, we we've done what we can with that. But again, I uh one of these days I would like to come back to that sprig of acacia because I think there is some stuff to uh you know talk about with that. Mainly because you know it's used in not just our private ceremonies, but in public ceremonies too. I think about Masonic funerals and the sprig of acacia is brought up in Masonic funerals.

SPEAKER_06 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

So I think there's there's a lot more to discuss with that. Actually that would be a good episode. The Masonic funeral might be one of those that we have to talk about here very shortly. But you know we could go on for hours but I know that you know one of the real reasons folks are tuning in is to hear that second part of our interview with most wishable brother William M. Carter III. That first part was amazing and I know folks are going to love this second yeah you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Sorry for the delay folks we talked about the big why the cultural why but that's not normally what gets people in the door. What was what was your why?

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Oh goodness there are multiple aspects to it. I happen to be one of those individuals who came from a family where Freemasonry existed now and my family had hopped a generation so my grandfather was was a mason and his father before him so we we had that history there. So that was kind of the initial exposure for me right I I knew that there was this thing called masonry. Mom had a Job's daughter's ring in in her jewelry box. Yeah I had no idea what that was but it was really important to her. When I picked it up it was one of those things don't walk away with that right obviously an important thing for her. So I I I had an awareness of this thing called Freemasonry. But I you know I didn't really think about it. The interesting thing was knowing that my grandfather was this going to school at Ohio State we we had the the world wide web right so I don't want to call it the internet it was the world wide web right at at that time on on Unix on Sun Spark stations, right? Speaking another language here. But I remember at one point actually doing a search in the limited search capabilities on Freemasonry. What is this thing? Right? I don't want Grampa's version what is this thing? And the site that I got was an anti-Masonic website. It was the first site it's one of the biggest anti-Masonic websites that still exist. It looks terrible I mean it's the the site looks like geo cities or something. I mean it's you might know which one it is right Freemasonry watch. I I've I've seen several it's it's pretty brutal. So that literally stopped me for a decade. Wow it literally stopped like this is crazy. I don't want to be a part of this thing. But there was there was like this calling inside of me and I had to know more. So about a decade later I happened to be doing a project where I wanted to record my grandparents' voice so that my kids could hear it someday right so I talked to grandpa again. And it has nothing to do with what he said he he wasn't a great public speaker or anything to that effect. But I remember asking him about masonry and he paused just long enough for me to see tears in his eyes and I went uh oh I've never seen him yeah do this and when he when the first words out of his mouth were the pride that he was a life member in his lodge I've never seen him go to lodge I've never seen him dress none of that stuff that meant something to him and I thought okay see I could for some reason this is calling to me there is something bigger in here I want that so my why was not only the result of exposure through the family my why was I see what that's doing to him I feel something inside of me I think I want this and it was really funny because when I'd arrived at the decision finally right that the that I was going to do this thing that I was I was going to do the Freemasonry thing I I turned to my my wife and I said I think I'm gonna do this and her response was just be careful and the poor thing what I dragged her through with this with the Grand Lad's travels and everything. But but it you know what it it ended up burying any of my expectations right so so the why in me was there's something bigger some I think some people have found it and if they really have I want it right and that that's that's literally what triggered me to do it.

SPEAKER_06 49:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

I'm almost sitting here like I've got goosebumps right now because again your story sounds so much like my story. Oh yeah you know I mean again it skipped a generation until my dad came in you know he grew up Catholic in Indiana so that was you know one of those things that was not you know it wasn't a thing but my mom's dad you know there was always something you know special about that I can remember you know as a kid you know you dig around in the drawers at you know at your grandparents' house when you're up there because you're bored and I remember seeing pins or his pocket knife or you know his Bible or things like that. And I never asked but I knew that that was something special. Right. And it wasn't until you know he was diagnosed with stage four prostate cancer that it really started to hit. I could see that it meant something greater to him. He was a life member you know 50 plus year Mason in Indiana and you know just seeing that was like okay it's not just for grandpa you know again you know my my pa was fantastic he you know but it was also seeing what it meant to him and you know hearing him say you know I wish I would have been more involved you know when I was yeah when I was in but you know hearing that I go again I always tell folks I've never bought a ring for myself I wear all of his and his dad's and my mom's grandfather's and stuff. So it it that resonates with me because again that's awesome it's that why sure it's because again finding something that is bigger than yourself and knowing that somebody that I looked up to so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Sure sure believed in something greater than himself to find that that's that's the why right yeah that that's a huge thing and and you know what that that carried weight for a certain period of time I don't know if we're in that world anymore where everybody knows all these masons and wow look at the change that it's made on them. You know traveling around the state through the Grand Lodge journey I stopped at a lot of gas stations wearing a tuxedo a lot of them right and and I've told this story before when when I would go up to uh to purchase my caffeine everybody knows that I love monster monster drinks I know they're terrible for the health expert in me is going oh no please don't drink those I don't drink the sugar ones but but that doesn't make it much better. But I I would walk up to the counter and and you can imagine right that the the person behind the counter would say oh wow are you a Freemason? That is never what they said. They would always say where's the limo right or where's the wedding or or whatever the people don't know what this is right they they just don't know what it is and and there's reasons for that as well it's not because we were bad people there just was a time where there were so doggone many people coming into this fraternity so many people that we could afford to say to be one ask one right we don't talk about that outside of the lodge right we we don't it's in a secret briefcase grandpa has in his under the bed right and we never saw that it was just a it was a it was a sign of the times right yeah and and and now there's a disruption right nobody until national treasure it's like nobody had any idea what this was and then national treasure opened it up a little bit right but but yeah for a long time so so that old way very moving for us. Yeah right we share that but there's not a lot of that there's not at this point.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Well and yeah I mean we've we've talked about that in the past too where that that familial connection has kind of been severed as Gen Xers were not adopters.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

I mean That's right we were the generation of nah we're not joining we were the anti-joiners there's a 20 year period where they're just counterculture everything is counterculture yeah yeah no doubt I I I even think it went even longer than that.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

I mean you go back into the 60s right and and the very you know rebelling against the the social norms and organizations right and and and you know we're gonna go live on a farm and and we're gonna we're gonna create our new world noble pursuits but disruptive as all get out to that familial line of joiners right that that did that thing. So yeah there's there's a different way and I don't know billboards are the answer. I I don't think so. Could social media be the answer though to a degree?

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Adopting highways seems to be something we wanted to do I love it.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah I I I think social media is an important conduit. I think it is here's the issue though like see why would you ask about social media right this we're going right now because you said that these were going to be light ones and we just got heavy right social media first of all I don't think social media is social in the way that we think but social media is a great communication conduit the trouble that we as a fraternity are having right now and I I that your Uncle Bill's going to be a little strict here for just a second the trouble that we have on social media right now is we got all these messages sharing about Freemasonry and then we got people acting in very unmasonic ways on social media. And I got to tell you modern culture today your millennials right which they they wanted to call Gen Y, but they didn't millennials and Gen Z have a really short fuse for inconsistent information. If we say that Freemasonry is this transformational powerful thing and then we got guys on social media name calling and and engaging in political mudslinging or or religious arguments rather than being those bringers of the sacred flame to the world immediately a younger generation says I mean you guys are just like everything else you're all advertising but there's no content underneath it. So social media is not only the potential boon that we think it is it's also our bane because for some weird reason I don't understand this we feel like we're done being masons when we leave this building are you nuts? You're never done all those obligations all those promises that carries into your life and so we've got an inconsistency of message problem when it comes to social media.

SPEAKER_03 55:36

Well especially when you take that obligation on you know a holy set of scriptures that that's that's binding. Yes I mean you know it's it's the same thing that a politician does when they take the oath of office it's the same thing that a judge does when they take their yeah it's binding.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Yeah you don't you don't say so help me God and the temple board right to to imply that it's just here in this building right it it is so much more than that. So yeah I'm I'm very bullish on social media but we we need to start acting like Masons right because our message is inconsistent when we have individuals. Listen, I'm gonna keep it really basic. If you're a Freemason and you're on social media and you're calling people names you blew it. You just blew it right use your words please yeah rather than name calling and and all those things that that literally utterly undermine the message.

SPEAKER_03 56:32

Burtherly love relief truth right yeah I mean that's that's what we should be doing no matter what. Again I always equate it to compassion service and integrity. I mean those are terms I feel like you know younger generations resonate with the most but it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Absolutely have that compassion have the service and have the integrity to be a man of character when you're not in the say those three again because I think the audience needs to hear that. Compassion service and integrity. So service service is one that we we think is fairly easy right integrity gets abused something fierce not only in society but but even in the fraternity I don't know why some individuals think that integrity means unbending unflexible you know we we are going to this is what I said and this is what it's going to be and that will not change its final I think it's a sign of an intelligent emotionally mature mind that when presented with different information we change our opinions that is not a lack of integrity that is huge integrity when we change our minds based on information or situation.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

I say in my practice I reserve the right to correct myself.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Bingo exactly exactly so you know that that that kind of covers that integrity thing but what was the one you said up front the compassion the compassion that is such a huge one. You know we talk about brotherly love, relief and truth and then a lot of times people get on social media and they scream the truth from the mountaintops because it's the truth forgetting the importance of compassion. And here's what's remarkable about compassion when you apply it to truth the way that you most effectively do that is you use these things called grammar, rhetoric and logic rather than name calling and labeling and and choosing sides, right? I swear we learned that somewhere right within this fraternity the importance of using pleasing words, right, to to begin to share ideas and so forth. It's the reason why there's subjects we can't talk about today because we don't want to approach it with compassion that is shaped and tailored by grammar rhetoric and logic. It's like all these things mean something.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

Who would have thought that everything that we're learning means sounds crazy.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

I mean crazy crazy I just thought it was complicated ritual. I just yeah a lot of memorization and you know things I couldn't read initially so you know the truth needs to be said absolutely right it's it's it's a key one for us but but there's a way to say it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

I've only I may be the standout here because I am not I I'm a non-participant in social media. But through observation it seems to me there's always the time and place argument that people make. And I I don't think that that's the place for those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

I I cannot disagree with you on that. I I think you're absolutely right but it it it's remarkable let's just talk in the context of brothers, right? Versus the the the part of society that's not had the benefit of that the beginning of those transformational elements. It's really interesting in brothers because they they become so convicted of the truth and if they feel like the truth is not out there our our culture particularly in social media has said shout it as loud as you can get above the noise. Well the funny thing is if everybody's shouting above the noise then it's just noise still right it's still just noise.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

So your time and place discussion really relevant and being argumentative with myself though that is that is now the town square that is the soapbox. It certainly is so while while I very strongly believe that that is not the place for those arguments to to occur, that's where they're going to continue to occur.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Yeah I don't disagree with you and in fact it's gonna get it's gonna continue to get worse because if anybody thinks that the whole purpose behind meta and I I hate to pick on meta but it's the biggest platform right with with with Facebook I say that as a Gen Xer right all all the Gen Z folks are going hello TikTok right have you never heard of this thing but but Meta does not simply say we're going to provide a town square for everybody. They don't there are these things called algorithms that learn what your preferences are and then give you an echo chamber. So the effectiveness of that town hall right of of that open forum the bottom line is you're not getting equal timeshare from from people right to even have that. So I I I think you're right. I I I think you're very right on this that there's a time and place issue. One of the things that I've had discussions with brothers about when they get into these particularly heated discussions, right, and there's plenty of those going on right now with with world events is if you're really trying to synthesize something, if you're really trying to get to the truth or you're really trying to share this knowledge, because I I I would assume that's what we're doing. We're sharing knowledge. It's not that I'm trying to turn you into me, right? I I'm I'm trying to share knowledge so that you're more informed. Yeah. You know what there there are there are ways to do that on social media platforms that don't involve you trying to shout above the noise. That's your opportunity to say hey let's create a private group for those that are ready to discuss uh yeah there's a concept that we I I will not get into it because it's huge concept but they they call it the window of discourse right there there's a certain level of discourse that you're actually able to have and if you get outside of that window it's you're getting a little too radical you're getting a little too crazy, right? But when you find that there are sufficient people within that window that are willing to have this discussion and maybe synthesize something out of that, beautiful. That is a great opportunity to create something like a group where you can discuss those things and you come to that agreement and say we're going to be open, we're going to be honest, we're going to have these discussions and then maybe something happens. What's remarkable and and and I'm gonna be really careful with my words here because I don't want anybody to read themselves into what I'm about to say. But what is remarkable is you can give people that capability in fact you can say hey I'm gonna give you a voice all I need you to do is articulate it so that that not only will shape my understanding, but that that can be used to share with others who are willing to listen. And you know what? 14 times out of 10, they won't do it because it involves putting in work and not just shouting. And I saw it happen last year multiple occasions where people were given that opportunity and it just went radio silent. Right? So we we have to ask ourselves there's a cultural element that necessarily tries to slip into this fraternity because we are human beings that live in a culture out there, but there are cultural elements that slip into this fraternal interrelationship that we have that have no business being here. And we have to be brave enough to say I may be part of the problem, but I'm going to stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:35

Very, very important Matt might be the one that lives off the grid.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

I'm not sure I think you are well I wasn't always the digital recluse that I am I I actually left social media in the mid teens when you know whether or not you brushed your teeth with mint or cinnamon toothpaste became political. So goodness I quite I that's honestly why I quit.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

So this this this resonates totally get it and then and it's still just as bad now right I it didn't get better.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

No it didn't get any better. Was that on your MySpace page?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

Oh wow it was very very little used Facebook very little used already I was gonna say on MySpace did you have the one friend and it was just Tom No I I never had MySpace Now I might be dating myself a little bit again I know I'm only like four months older than you or something like that. Oh my I got free gun parts for tagging things so I posted exactly two photos. I might open an account for that absolutely absolutely they didn't ask how many followers I had they were just like hey if you if you do it okay cleaning the warehouse I mean well we do have our inspection coming up and we do have that gun raffle coming up.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

I I know I'm kind of breaking that here but it's a pretty nice it's a pretty nice rifle.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

I'm not gonna be joining Instagram to do anything with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:03

Well you don't have to that's the beauty of it I thought that might be where you were going to be no I was just I was actually drumming up a little bit of business for the inspection come to us and you can get your your tickets for that I think what 200 and some odd tickets for that so is it 300 even I'd have to it was a little bit less than that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

Okay yeah it's a nice it's a nice one so maybe we'll talk offline about that nice nice okay wow that that started with you getting into masonry yeah how about that we haven't even we haven't even knocked on the door yet we haven't even looked at your first officer position like there's a we'll just we'll just keep we'll keep it broad.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

What was your journey? So keeping it broad started right away as an officer in my lodge in fact when I was a brand new master mason one of the first things they did was made me lodge education officer. Oh nice blows my mind Why? But yeah, it, you know, did the journey through the chairs, had the opportunity to be elected master of the lodge, and served. My lodge has a a cultural thing that obviously, depending on the merit of the individual and the way that the vote goes, we see benefit to a master serving for two years. It's just a benefit. Now we are a very small lodge. Our membership is right now, I think 51, right? Very, very small lodge. So when when you know people brag about getting 10% of their members in for a lodge meeting, we think, well, we couldn't even open that, right? So we're regularly at 35%, right? 40% because we need to open the lodge. But, you know, went through and became master of the lodge, very quickly, became a part of the Blue Lodge Association as an officer, eventually became president of our Blue Lodge Association in the 22nd district. And we're a fairly big district, about I think it's about 4,500 Masons. And then immediately rolled into being a district education officer. And I was thrilled when I got the call to be a district education officer. I'm very, very passionate about bringing things that are not only educational but inspirational to our brothers so that they realize we've got something here. And I really enjoyed getting to be a district education officer. Then the phone call came, I and I I could barely process it. And it was, would you like to be a district deputy grandmaster? Right. So I entered upon this administrative role, a very important role within the fraternity from an administrative standpoint. All of this spanned a time period of oh goodness, three, six, about eight years. Oh wow. About eight years, right, to go through this because some of the pieces overlapped. The Blue Lodge Association and DEO overlapped. Master and Blue Lodge Association, that overlapped for a year. So that that's kind of where the journey went. And I'll never forget it. Our our district advisor at the time was at the time was right worshipful brother Rick Schau. Right. And I I can remember he called me up and he said, Hey, you you want to come have a pizza? Right? Bring your lady, we'll we'll we'll go to a pizza place, right? Near nearby us. Love the place. And we went and we sat down, we had pizza, and he said, Yeah, why don't you come back to the house and you know we'll we'll keep the evening going, right? We'll we'll talk and so forth. And uh I'll never forget, we get at his house, we sit down, and then it was the big question, right? Would you like to be no, I would like to appoint you as junior grand deacon, right? And I I remember just being absolutely puzzled. Why is he even asking me this? And I I must have frozen because at one point he leaned up to me and he said, You understand what that means, right? Like, yeah, I I I really, really do. And and gave opportunity, you know, for me to think it over because of the big commitment that it was, right? You're now going to be one of those scary guys in the gold collars and and all that stuff. And and uh listen, was something I number one was never hunting for. Number two, never would have been in the realm of possibility.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:19

Well, if you don't mind the interruption, where were you in your professional career when that question was asked of you?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

You know, it as far as the career, I mean, same field, but here I was in a a profession that required me to fly a lot, right? And and that never really stopped. But yeah, but you know, so so deep in the profession and doing a lot of travel, I had a very, very young daughter, right? And that that was part of the consideration, right? Are you going to be able to continue to deliver on your duties as a father as well? My wife works, uh, very gainfully employed in the legal profession. I'm sorry. No, she that's alright, she's the one that pays you guys, right? So she's everybody's friend, right? I like her. Exactly. But uh yeah, I mean, so so deep in in the in the profession, so all these things were a consideration, right? Am I gonna be able to do this?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

Well, did you have I I'm my question is almost one of capacity, right? Like so did you have a big team under you? Were you already a leader of people?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Yeah, it at the time my team was fairly small. So I was a people leader, a group of consultants, but it was a small team. Okay. And and in a way, I almost felt like that helped a little bit because these were good professionals, right? So I knew I didn't have to micromanage, I hate micromanaging, but I knew that that we could carry on the business and we could do a good job. I had a manager, I was very, very lucky, who happened to, he wasn't a Mason, but his father was. So he knew about the fraternity. And he said, Look, I I under you get your job done, then you go ahead and do what you want to do with Freemasonry. So I I was very fortunate to have a supportive uh director above me who said, Yeah, absolutely, go ahead and go do this thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

And for what it's worth, the the question stems really from, I mean, outside looking in, it looks like a very big leap. And I and not no disservice intended to a district deputy grandmaster. They do a considerable amount. But jumping going from leading a lodge or leading a blue lodge association to a DDGM seems to me like smaller steps than the leap that is the grand line.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

You're you're 100% right. And I mean, we we can use numerical qualifications on that. So by way of example, a district deputy may have to be reviewing inspection for 10 lodges. The average Grand Lodge officer in views inspections for 50 to 60 lodges. It's a massive jump in what you're doing. Now, granted, you know, a lot of footwork has already been done by by the district deputies and the DEOs. But but it's even more than that, right? It's it's more than the administrative, there are a lot of ceremonial duties that you're responsible for. It's an enormous amount of travel. Thankfully, we get this big massive paycheck from the Grand Lodge office to offset all that. Thankfully. I I I kid, right? I mean, it's it's a condition too. We are not raising our dues. No, no, I get it. I get it. No, I and I I mean you it's it's essentially on you. I mean, uh the the the bottom line is it is a it's a time commitment, it's a financial commitment, it's a it's a family commitment. That's that's just the bottom line. And and part of that conversation had to be to talk with my loved ones to say, man, I'm gonna be busy for the next eight years. I mean, it's gonna be heavy. I'm I'm going to miss things, uh you know, but but the fraternity owns me at this point. They do. I I I belong to the state of Ohio. So yeah, all this stuff was from a capacity standpoint, it was a massive, massively. Plus, what makes it interesting is you almost don't know what you're getting into, right? All of a sudden you go, I'm on what committee? What I have to I have to do what, right? I I I need to do these different things, and oh, and there's a there's a timetable of of of when this is due and when I've got to do that, and these are expected meetings, and and when the grandmaster says do this, you gotta do this, and uh huge. So so thankfully he gave me seven days to think about it, right? But you know, it it was really interesting because I was very lucky in that uh now most World War Brothers show, he he was very big on doing things like creating job descriptions, right? Creating those things that you need to kind of help you toward your success. That was a big endeavor for him. So there was a lot that he was able to give me, and I just simply had to digest it. So I can honestly say that I have been busier than I've ever been in my entire life since I joined this fraternity. I mean, without question. And we went through the Grand Lodge journey, and there there is that little part of you that says, wow, I've been doing this for 13 years, right? Leadership at a at a at a district level or higher. 13 years in a row here. But here comes the end is almost here. And that that is a remarkable thing in our fraternity, by the way, just so you know. So you you go at this amazing pace, at least for eight straight years, right? You are running. You are absolutely running. And literally, the day that the election happened, and and I mean no disrespect to our our grand secretary's office, by the way, they're amazing, amazing people in our office. We are running on a shoestring staff compared to other states. These folks in our grandma's office, they're they're crazy. You think I'm busy, right? They're nuts, right? Love them, love them to death. And because of that, when as soon as somebody else was elected grandmaster, I instantly lost my email. I instantly lost my teams community, I lost everything. I literally got back to my room and went, they cut me off. But they have to, right? They have to because there's new people coming in and they they've got to have access to those things. I totally get it. And it's interesting because knowing that that's gonna happen, and this was no surprise to me, right? I knew it was gonna happen. You you do kind of look at it and you go, okay, well, you know, there's really only three months left now, and I wonder what I'm gonna do afterward, right? Because I don't remember what it means to be home on a weekend or or you know, any any of those aspects, how the the rest of the world lives. And then I had an amazing conversation. We happened to be finishing up uh for the Scottish Right for the Ohio Council of Deliberation. Uh one of the most moving times of my life was having the the conferral of the 33rd degree. I mean, just holy cow, crazy good. Not just from the conferral perspective and the brotherhood perspective, but from an education perspective, I went, I knew it. I knew it, right? When they start sharing that, you're like, that's it. That's that's the stuff. I I'm biased, love the Scottish Right. But after an Ohio Council of Deliberation session, our state deputy invited me to breakfast. And I figured he wanted to talk about the website because I run the website for the Scottish Right in Ohio. And I'm figuring, okay, they probably want to talk about that or the next OCD. And he said, We want to nominate you to be an active 33rd. So now it was, oh, I'm not done, right? Now I'm engaged at the Northern Masonic jurisdiction as one of the trustees of the Supreme Council, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

Very cool. So it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

The work continues, right? So any any illusions that I had that the calendar was going to change, yeah, that was that's funny to think of that now, right? It's because it's still it's still very busy. So I mean that that essentially was the journey, and that's where I find myself right now, right? Is in that spot where the focus may have changed, but Scottish Right is still masonry. And and and Scottish Right will point you right back to your lodge and say, take the things that you get here and get them back to your lodge, right? It needs because all masonry starts there. And and the Scottish Right is, man, they're doing some incredible stuff. Yeah. They really are. To be a part of that. I'm I'm excited, very happy to be a part of Scottish Right. 100%, 100%. And to sit in the room, uh, and I'm not trying to blow smoke, but to sit in our room with our commander, with Commander Wheeler, and and all these men that I've seen on Thursday night at the right, right? I'm sent with them. I'm like, holy cow, look, look, I I know you and I know you, right? I know you. You're that silly guy in the Revolutionary War uniform. And right uh, but just remarkable because these are many people might not know that our Supreme Council is in kind of the Boston area, right? Lexington, Massachusetts. So speaking that vernacular, sitting at that table and looking around at all those guys and and saying, wow, these guys are wicked smot, right? They're just so it's like the the brain matter, right? And I'm I'm being a little bit facetious, but it it really was that impactful, right? To to experience that. So I mean, that's really it's the journey to now, which is you're not done running, right? You you you you have moved your focus in a way in in order to serve your brothers. That that's what the whole thing is about. So holy cow, what a journey.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:18

And I love that you said that the journey's not over, because again, I think that that's a perfect metaphor for what we do. Right. The journey is never over.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

We talked about it at the beginning. We know that it's a circle over and over and over.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

And it it'll it will keep going until we pass to that grand lodge in the sky. Yeah, so that that's again, I got I don't get goosebumps very often on these, but that's twice now. You know, it's goosebumps on that. It's it's it's a perfect metaphor for what we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:51

Yeah, and and don't don't let me sound like it's a humble brag thing, right? Oh, yeah. This is incredibly humbling. And there are days I I will openly admit it, and the commander's probably gonna call me and say, hey, we need to talk. But there are days when I wake up and I say, how do I get anywhere near what these men are? How do I even get close to that? That's a nice world to wake up in, in my opinion. I love waking up in a world where I am surrounded by men who are so much greater than me, and I can literally aspire to something every single day of my life. It's it's the moment where you feel like there's nothing else to be done. That's you know, go we'll go back to movies again, right? Get busy living or get busy dying, right? Yeah, from Shawshank, right? To be surrounded by such men and to constantly be inspired by you know their example and what they've accomplished. Man, I I'm not them. Maybe someday I can get close to them, but it's an amazing feeling. And this fraternity offers that to every single person, regardless of the chair that they sit in. Regardless.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:59

Boy, that's goosebumps for the third time because I I feel that way a lot of the time, just in the blue lodge line. You know, being in the East, I look at the you know, the guys that have come before me. I look at, you know, Matt, I look at you know, worstwell brother Craig, and it's like, gosh, yeah, I'm in the presence of these guys, and now I'm inhabiting the same chair that these guys inhabit. I was like, wow, the things that they've accomplished, or you know, Worstwell brother Lewis. I mean, at 90 years old, he you know he just you know stepped down as our treasurer, but again, I'm inhabiting the same chair. I'm sitting in the exact same spot that these guys sat in. Wow. Why am I worthy to be in that spot?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:37

100%. And and one of the greatest lessons of the Master Mason degree without revealing anything, one of the greatest lessons is when you're going through this and you see these opportunities and you see these amazing individuals and the wisdom that they have, do not forget that time is almost up. So don't sit, don't wait, don't say someday, don't, don't put, don't take your foot off the gas because at some point that winter wind is gonna come, right? And everything's going to change. Health could change, your financial situation could change in a moment's notice. All of this could be snuffed out. So do it now, pursue it, ask the questions, have the conversations, do it now. Yeah. Right. And and that's that's my FOMO pitch, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

But it's a perfect, but it's a perfect pitch because again, it's one of those that, you know, I was raised in July, and then you know, I was thinking, ah, you know, I'm not sure if I'm ready to go into you know the line or things like that. Broke my hip in October before, you know, the elections, and then was back to to lodge in that November. And I was like, oh no, I need to do this now. Oh, yes. So it was one of those. It you know, thinking of that FOMO, it's like, no, no, no. I, you know, I had a life-altering experience. I can't wait. That's right. I've got to start going. And I haven't let off the gas, I don't think, since. So No.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:01

Progression after progression. And honestly, as I sit here and listen to this, all I think about right now, and I have a bias, but I'm thinking about the the working tools of the fellowcraft degree as you gents talk. That's just what's r marching through my mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:15

So beautiful. Oh my gosh. You know, not not to get off on a biased sidetrack, that that could be my favorite degree of our of our pre-degree. I love the fellowcraft degree. And you know what? What's funny about it is so often we have treated that degree like it's a rest area, right? Like it's a pilot or flying J on the way to the Master Mason degree. Man, when you become a fellowcraft park there for a while. It is rich. There is so much in there, and it will prepare you well. The great thing about the way the fellowcraft prepares you is it will literally build you up. And then the Master Mason degree comes along and says, uh-uh. No, no, no. Don't forget. Yeah. Don't forget, right? So, so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:03

That lecture is probably my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:05

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:08

We're jumping ahead. Sorry. No, no, no. This is go ahead and it's organic. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. It's it's something that I always like asking. It's well, one favorite working tool 24-inch gauge.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:21

Oh, same hundred percent. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

One of my biggest struggles.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

So we are literally on like the same page. It's one of those that I love because again, people laugh at me. I still have a paper day planner. Oh my goodness. I still use a paper. Franklin man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've got my well, ink and vault, but you know, very similar, close enough. You know, I keep my digital calendar up to date for everybody else. That's right. I have this for me because it allows me to record my thoughts. I love that and again.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

Authoritative source, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:49

We talked about that in you know one of our previous podcasts where we talked about the working tools, and I always I said 24-inch gauge by far. That's my favorite. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:00

Oh, common gavel. Divestiture. It's we uh the word continuous has come up here several times in circle. And I I recognize that what I want to be is aspirational, right? And and in order to get there, you need to leave parts of yourself behind. Things that you don't like, things that no longer serve you. Absolutely. A never-ending pursuit.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:26

Absolutely. And and we talked about it too in that same discussion that the common gavel can, you know, while you're also you know perfecting yourself, you can use that to to mentor your new brethren or any brethren. Sure. It it it's a tool that can be used on self and others. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:49

Isn't that funny that that that that our our favorites are in the internet apprentice degree? Isn't that wild?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:53

It is, but again, I think that's because again, that's your first introduction.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:56

Oh well, that could be. And I think that first introduction, it speaks to you. It's like Wasonry meets you where you are. Isn't that weird?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:03

It is it or is it not? I mean, that's it's not, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:06

It's by design, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:09

I love it. What was the other one? If you had to listen I assume I know the answer now, but if you had to listen to a single lecture on a 24-hour loop, that's what would it be? Yeah. Fellowcraft? Fellowcraft.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:20

100%. Okay. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

Well, and I uh I'm gonna ask the one that I know that that Matt always likes to ask. You know, when you're wearing your your ring, is it points in or points out? Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:31

The the You don't have to you don't have to do the why. We don't have to do the why if you don't want to. No, I'm gonna do the why.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:37

In fact, I I think we should do the why uh rather than just saying it and and leaving it as a contentious issue. I didn't get into this fraternity to show it to other people. I got into this fraternity because I needed to be better. And so for me, the points are in to remind me you need to make yourself a little better. So yeah. I love that. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:04

That explains it perfectly, too. I mean, because I'm usually a points out guy, but listen, I'm not trying to convince.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:10

I uh there's there's reasons for points out too that I I think make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:15

But you know, I I think it's a very personal choice. I I have unfortunately seen people with new master masons say, hey, flip that ring around. That's not you don't wear it like that. We don't do that. Really? Did you take a second to hear their why? I mean, there there's no rule anywhere. And and I literally saw somebody who who be was raised a Master Mason in a particular lodge. He was chastised for wearing his ring the wrong way. So what did he do? He he took a demit and went somewhere else. Oh wow where he knew he was going to get mentorship rather than being talked down to. Right. So that's a pity. So it's I think it's a valid question, and and I think it's fun. I think the fun part is listening to everybody's watch. Yeah. Right? That that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:56

For me, it's a beacon, it's a beacon to the world. There you go. That's good. That's for me. Sharing that light with the rest of the world. That's why I wear it. 100%. 100%. But why not tell you that also reminds me of the the pin that you had struck and the profoundness of that pin, you know, the for the first time, an entered apprentice could wear that pin. Yeah. And that was profound to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:18

It actually was one of the questions that I had. Well, it may be part of one of the questions that I had that was surrounding you, you know, looking back at your year, what accomplishment are you the most proud of? I mean, the outside looking in, I love what was done with the pen, and I love what was done with the funerary stuff for the internet press. Right. Yeah, absolutely. But but that's a that's a me thing. What are you proud of? Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:48

You know, leading up to it, uh we we understand the pattern of history. Right. And we know that as a a person serves in a Grand Lodge office, that there is a possibility that they'll we move to a next role and a next role, right? So we understand that history. It's not guaranteed. I mean, at any point, I I could have been removed from a role by either one person or I could have been removed from the role by a simple vote. Right? A simple anonymous vote. So it was precarious year after year, right? You never know if you're coming back or if you're packing your bags and you're going home. But one of the questions I got as I was moving through those offices, somebody said, what do you want to accomplish when, you know, when you're grandmaster, if so elected, right? I have to put the disclaimer. But I thought it was a great question. He said, what do you want to accomplish? And I I put some thought into that and my answer was, and I'm I'm going to use some edgy terminology here, but I want to be the dog whistle for all of those Masons who think that they cannot come out and talk about the more profound aspects of this fraternity for the esoteric Masons, for the Masons that are moved, for the Masons that have a story to tell, I want to be a dog whistle for them to say it is safe to come out and talk about this and not numbers and not procedural elements. One thing that folks may not have noticed we do a lot of travel and I had to give a lot of speeches as Grandmaster. Not one of my speeches had anything to do with the number of people in Grandview or what our membership numbers look like or are you getting on this particular ACH? Look, those things were covered. People covered those, right? My entire point, my personal, I'm being very, very personal and vulnerable here, was you may be given an opportunity to have a year to serve this fraternity in a historic role. Spend the year trying to inspire people. Spend the year trying to do that. Be that dog whistle tell them it's safe to come out. Tell them about the sacred flame. Embed the symbolism so that an entered apprentice becomes instantly a part of our culture and is able to put the pin on his lapel why do we contradict ourselves when we tell an entered apprentice, there you are, you're a Mason, congratulations oh no funeral for you, right? So those were just procedural elements that were literally to put our strategy in line with the culture. That was the important thing. So what is the most what am I most proud of? I would say that I blew the whistle well. That's certainly what I tried to do was blow the whistle to the best of my ability. And I got to tell you my brothers were so incredibly generous with their with their words poems and songs and and and not to me they weren't to me it had nothing to do with the guy. It had to do with a fraternity that has changed their lives. And I I I like to talk I don't think she would mind me saying this one of our I I won't call her out by name but one of our one of our ladies that works for the Ohio Masonic Communities Resource Center and that kind of narrows them down. Right. Of course she she when everything was said and done and we we were at the final communication and somebody else had been elected she she said to to me that she had never seen the fraternity so positive. Now if if you can't sit back at the end of that and say it wasn't about Bill. It never was you know look at him it was a fraternity that's on fire for the fraternity man that's that's a big deal that's what I'm most proud of. I think this fraternity stepped up in a massive way it had nothing to do with Bill. It had everything to do with the fact that somebody said it's safe to come out now and man did they come out. They came out huge and I think that that was an amazing thing that we accomplished in the year.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:52

Well said yeah I can't agree more. Yeah I I I have no follow up very well said I literally have no follow up to that because I I couldn't agree more. I think you know the energy you know again with last year being my first year in the East that that inspired me too you know that that energy to say let's take a chance let's you know what an idea that started with just recording you know some of our older brethren to record their stories for posterity turned into what we're doing right here. 100% and it was that courage you know and again if you would have asked me when I started in this fraternity if our you know if our lodge would have spent close to a thousand dollars to fund a podcast for you know the the equipment and everything like that, I probably would have laughed. Oh sure. You know if our lodge would have done that. But now there wasn't even a hesitation for oh for for taking a chance on the potential for it to be successful.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:52

Five years ago I would have had better luck moving them to bet on black on a roulette wheel nice yeah and it it's it's a remarkable thing when and look Freemasonry is not perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:07

The trouble with Freemasonry is that it's full of Freemasons, right? Men who are trying to perfect themselves but are therefore not perfect. Yeah that that is if there's a a challenge that we have that's the challenge but that's a beautiful challenge right we're we're full of men who recognize themselves as as needing work and they're they're engaging in that work and and those things are taking place. I think that that was to me the most important thing was to focus on that right let's keep let's keep focused on the things that unite us let's keep focused on the things that inspire us let's focus on educating right so all of these cultural things that wasn't just oh what's Carter's program oh it's going to be the culture and strategy series. That wasn't about a program any more than I I people always ask me what was your theme? What's your theme going to be and my answer was always I don't have a theme. Be legendary is not a theme. Be legendary was a calling you have a responsibility now that you have had this opportunity for transformation to actually engage in be legendary in whatever way that plays out for each individual person, right? That is the calling I was so excited this is one of the things that that we we it's a benefit that we get coming through the line is I knew before he released it what most were for brother Sean Johnson's theme was going to be, right? So I knew about committed to the craft and man is it hard to keep your mouth shut right and it was especially hard to keep my mouth shut because it is such a natural flow from that. How are you going to be legendary if you are not committed to the craft in fact I promise you if you're going to be a Freemason and you're going to attempt to be legendary but you don't care about the craft, you're not going to be legendary you're going to be notorious. That's a whole different ball of wax that we're talking about here. So when he told me that that's what it was going to be I was so excited because that made me look at that man sitting next to me and and and say this man wants to take it higher and that is what it should be. He should be taking it even higher and he did right out of the gate just literally by creating that focus right for the the craft to say there's a commitment. Listen it's so easy if you don't like something that the secretary says or you get in a little scuffle with somebody or I don't think we should be spending money on that to take your football and go home. It's really easy to do that right quiet quitting has existed since longer than COVID, right? It's really easy for us to do that. It is hard to stay committed even when the times get tough. So I I'm so excited and and I'll tell you a secret I know what the next one is too and holy cow am I excited if he should be elected. Yeah this is such a trajectory listen you can't travel with people sometimes up to eight years without beginning to share ideas and and wanting to grow and I can the the one thing I can guarantee you about all those people that are that are your grand lodge officers, I can't even guarantee that they have good taste in whiskey because some of them don't right but but one thing I can guarantee about each of them they care so much about this craft that they will sacrifice their own personal time their life their their fortunes their families I mean not sacrifice I'm gone right but but they will give until it hurts and give some more because they care about this fraternity. They really really care about that. And I can personally vouch for everybody that's in there today because I spent the time with them some longer than others.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:47

But it's such an exciting thing did we get a little bit of a preview on what the next one might be in the podcast that we did just a couple So I've only heard part one right I I've only heard part one of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:01

Is part two released? Not yet. Okay that's that's why so I can't wait to hear part two part part one I loved because listen I I'm sure right worship brother McCannlish is going to hear this thing. Right Worship Brother McCannlish is the most cardiac Mason that I've ever seen. He he's well well close. Keith Newton is close to right most brother Newton very cardiac meaning they really their heart cares so much about this fraternity. When you sat and talked with uh I'm gonna call him Mike and forgive me right worship when you sat and talked to him I would be amazed if you didn't feel the heart in him. Yeah he's got such an amazing story. His start to the journey was such a bittersweet thing right when when he came into this and I would argue that he was exactly the right person for the circumstances right and and and just as I think he would probably say this about me as he and I have traveled together, I would say about him that I've watched him grow in in in this journey. Like these are just men. The bottom line is maybe it was my opportunity to serve as grandmaster last year, but there's a great principle in this fraternity that says don't forget that just as you've been elevated by your brothers, it was them that elevated you and you must return to the quarries. And here I am I'm back and and it feels pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:26

Oh well that's I I'm again I'm I'm speechless at this point I think it's this is this is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:33

I think I just wore you out I think that's all I know no no this is this is amazing content.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:38

I mean it's rare well as the introvert it is not super rare to find me speechless but on this it is kind of rare to find me speechless. But uh you know I think as I think I think about where the you know where the craft is heading where we're going if you could improve one single aspect of the participation that we have for the brethren that are out there how would you what would you say you know again you can come twice a month do your stated meetings do your degree work and go home what would your advice be to you know improving that single aspect of participation in what we're doing?

unknown 1:39:15

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:18

It could be multiple aspects okay all right you boxed him in nobody puts baby in a corner puts baby in a corner that's right that guy belongs in a cage you know actually I I think there is one thing though that that kind of bubbles to the top it in and of itself is not going to completely solve right but it sort of bubbles to the top and I think that that is every single Masonic endeavor that we do is it a meeting is it an awards night is it a potluck we need to treat it as a a an experience that will define your life and I know that sounds really big but think about this for a second we have brothers for example that may have done sixty years of being committed to the craft sixty years six decades. I'm not sixty years old right do we give them something that is commensurate with that dedication to the craft when we do an awards night do we you know what when it comes to a candidate who has just finished their master mason degree and that's a long night right oh yeah that's we we can say that master mason degree is a long night when we get done with the master mason degree is the first thought in your mind it's it's late I got to get out of here right I I got to get going or are we willing to say I will not leave for at least an hour because that man even though the degree is done that man is the reason that we are here and so we're gonna talk to him we're gonna get him a cake right or or have a nice meal. It's funny how meals appeal to Mason so much. Oh yeah it's but it's a thing right it's it's absolutely a thing every single one of these Masonic experiences needs to be at that level that it it shapes your life every single one I think that's the number one thing. Now that that that takes time that takes treasure that takes talents right it's it's not easy. But I I think that's probably the biggest opportunity that we have in front of us to fundamentally change because the truth of the matter is when you impact somebody like that you take take a number one comment that I used to get when you know as as grandmaster you you get the opportunity to present these big service awards 75 eight years. It's unimaginable to me, right? I I had the opportunity to present an 80 year award to a brother his he was living in one of our Masonic communities his paintings were all over the building that he had done for for this his his life story and his military amazing amazing individual but one of the biggest comments that I always would get with these senior service members and it typically happened either in their homes or one on one they would say I just I feel bad because I haven't been a very good Mason for a lot of years. I haven't been the lodge in 20 years. I haven't been a good Mason and I thought what what a what a tragic thing what if we made such a big deal that they understood that they were valued right we didn't mail the award we made a big deal out of the thing right there there's there's small ways that we can do that. I think that's the number one way and then then I think there's other things right we we've got opportunity for planning I think we need to put continue to put focus on education more focus on education because education is transformational in my opinion right and and there's some some functional can I talk about the functional thing oh absolutely talk about it so so so one of the things that was a decision of mine last year and I think people were a little shocked by it was to say that for your master mason inspection you can utilize people from other lodges if there's a live candidate. And and it's I remember the first time I shared that with somebody before I was elected grandmaster they said are you going to require XYZ I I think we we all know what what it's talking about. I don't necessarily want to air it out but my response was no I'm not going to require that because the bottom line is what matters the most in our lodge is what matters the most in those degrees is the experience. That is what matters the most why on earth are we hamstringing ourselves so get give me a give me a district team that is just so phenomenal at conferring these degrees and call them into the lodge because it's going to accomplish two things. Number one, it's gonna be an amazing degree experience. And number two, man, is it wild when you see all those people there. Oh it's amazing right it's it's wild so here we are again right it's little procedural things but it's all about the experience that experience shapes you and I tell you there is no better press than somebody like my grandpa who when you say Freemason the tears come to his eyes. Yeah that'll move the entire society we don't need billboards or clever advertising campaigns when they see men who are fundamentally changed and are shaping their communities and their world.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:39

Yeah I'm again I'm right there with you because again have my having those conversations with my grandfather when you know he gave me the ring that I'm wearing today that tear you know came to the eye. You know it was yeah it was something something super special.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:56

And it's kind of funny when I first came into this fraternity and I would see leaders that would get up on stage and they would speak and then they'd start crying and I remember thinking what a bunch of crybabies why are these guys cry so much right and and and then you know I'm I'm heading toward my 22nd year in the fraternity I'm like I get it I get because it it moves you it really moves you in a way that even well done movies can't move you. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:22

Every time I go and see the outdoor degree at Newholm I'm still moved. Really yeah I mean just I'm really happy to see that. Yeah uh it's always in July I'll uh we can get definitely it's again I get teared up because again I see it I get teared up there I also get teared up at the apron presentation in the Internet Apprentice degree.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:42

Oh my gosh such a great presentation oh yeah you know uh some of the the and and and everybody's different one of the things that's moved me about this fraternity is when we take a man a modern man and we reconnect him to timeless truth in nature so you're like I wow right and I didn't know if that was just because I was a computer guy but when I saw stuff happening ritualistically speaking and went this is nature. This is we're reminding you something here right and connecting you to this I don't want to because I'm gonna get real woo-woo here in a second I can feel the woo-woo coming up right go for it go for it but when when when all of a sudden you reconnect that man where he suddenly realizes it's not about how much money you make or what kind of car you drive or what what size house do you live in and he says I'm nature I'm a part of this but I'm there's this divine part of of who we are too and I'm that's me I'm in there wow I mean all of a sudden you say why are we arguing why are we fighting with each other look at this stuff this is crazy. We shouldn't be arguing we should be constructively exchanging ideas and getting better. There's an interesting myth I I warned you we're getting close so I'm gonna pull it back here in a second there is this myth. I believe the myth of continual progress in humanity is exactly that it's a myth. We grow in some areas but we are devolving badly in other areas it's a myth.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:08

My father has said on many occasion that if each successive generation actually learned from the previous one, we would have already colonized space.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:17

Right oh my gosh yeah look look at some of those old TV shows where they thought we were going to be right we were promised hoverboards and flying cars. I want my hoverboard dug on it now we used to have his chat GPT we use AI to make offensive memes.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:34

I will say though Back to the future did get my cubby's win in the World Series it was one year off so I'll take that oh my goodness that's funny. Oh my goodness boy you know we we could probably go on for a bajillion more hours I think probably could people would get really tired of us they might I think they're probably already starting to get tired of us two over here but uh it's there's so many questions still but I I want to be one mindful of time and I feel like we're is there a part two I mean we certainly can we can definitely do a couple hours down the road yeah yeah well we're definitely going to set up another time for another discussion but I think as you know as we as we kind of close out the time this evening what are your what are your thoughts? What you know what is that last thought for all the brethren listening or anyone listening who might even be considering joining Masonry.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:34

I guess I would say for the Mason and and I was asked this on another occasion and and I quoted a Dylan Thomas poem Rage Against the Dying of the Light. Right? Do not go gentle into that good night you have a sacred flame inside of you it takes work people I've gotten so many people that have reached out to me even when my term as grandmaster finished that have said I just need to talk to you because I don't know where else to turn turn to the sacred flame tend that sacred flame don't let it go out stay committed to the craft and for those that are not members of this fraternity and look there's a lot of anti-Masonic nonsense going on right now and I I even got a little fired up on social media over it. Thankfully I don't think I I you know I don't think I went too far I don't know some might disagree but for those who are looking at Freemasonry and and essentially saying why what what what's why did you why have you buried so I mean you think about that for a second. If I took all the energy that I've spent to date in these roles and I applied it to my career, what would I be driving right? I mean that that's a lot of time and a lot of energy that has has gone into this. So why to a person who's not a Mason, why would you even do this? And I think the answer to that is very, very obvious because the world is Hurting, but there is a sacred flame that just dying to burn inside each one of us. And through the power of all the things that we do as Freemasons, whether it's the ritual, whether it's the time together, whether it's the learning and education, the bottom line is you will be transformed. Your life will be changed. Your relationship with your creator will be enhanced. But most of all, you will be equipped to go out into a world that is starving for that light. And you will be that light. If that moves you, listen to the call. Freemasonry is not for everybody, but it just might be for you. Listen. And if it is, give us a call.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:50

Absolutely. I think you know there's and then again, there's plenty of ways to reach us too in this digital age, too. But boys, we close this time up. I I can't thank you enough. You know, I I'll say Bill because you you know supposed to call you Bill, but you know, it seems weird, you know, to say, you know, again, but I think that's one of the great things is we are all just men at the end of the day. So, and but thank you so much for traveling down here, spending some time with us, and boy, just the amazing conversation that we have had. And I know we definitely want to have you back again.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:24

So well, stay committed, my brothers. Thank you for the love because this was love. You're taking time away for us to talk like this.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:44

Well, I'll tell you, those parting words from most wishful brother Carter, they really hit home. They really hit home with a lot of things that we've been trying to do with you know here at Newark 97 and really where I think the free the future of Freemasonry has to go. It it's just an important, I think, call to action.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:05

Yeah, I could not agree more. It's kind of one of those things where you wanna you want to carry that flame with you, like right out in front of you. Light shine it have it shine as far as you possibly can into the darkness, right? Yeah and have let everybody see it, let it be a beacon.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:22

Yeah. And and and I think the interesting thing, you know, one light isn't a lot, but if all of us started carrying that light, now there's one, two, ten, fifteen, twenty, a hundred, a thousand, that's where the difference starts to be made. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:37

Oh, the in pushing back some darkness?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:40

Absolutely. So, well, this is once again gonna do it here for us at Beyond the Door. We hope you really enjoyed this episode and we look forward to cont uh connecting with you each and every month. Please help us grow our audience by subscribing to us on your podcatcher of choice, as well as sharing this podcast with your brothers, friends, and family. Did you enjoy this episode? Please leave us your feedback on your podcatcher of choice. Again, good reviews only. We won't we only want to hear the good stuff, right? You know my shtick, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:12

I know. You only get better by learning your weaknesses, so don't be shy about the bad ones either, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:19

Newark ninety seven is on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can also reach us via email at newark.logge at gmail.com. Until next time, stay safe, and as always, search for light in masonry.