I feel we owe you an apology, Commissioner. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Now, I must report that the President will not change his mind. Excuse me. It's just occurred to me that we've got two days to catch the jackal. What? How do you know? Silly of me not to have seen it before. Am I right in thinking that the President has no engagements outside the palace today, tomorrow, or Saturday? Nothing. And what is Sunday, August 25th?
SPEAKER_03Course liberation. That's what he's been waiting for. So we have a little over 48 hours. We must have been blind, gentlemen. All we need from you, Commissioner, is the passport photograph of Pamelon Quest.
SPEAKER_04Copenhagen has promised to send us it by this evening's conference.
SPEAKER_03How did you know whose telephone to tap?
SPEAKER_04I didn't, so I tapped all of them.
SPEAKER_00Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That 70s Movie Podcast. I'm your host, Michael A. Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirshner. Jonathan, how are you doing today? Not too bad, actually. That's good. You know, it's actually been just a beautiful set of days here in New York. Uh my kids are home from camp. It's very exciting. So yeah, the summer's going pretty well, actually. Um uh we've got a bunch of travel coming up, and looking forward to that. Looking forward to next week taking the whole family to see The Odyssey with the new Christopher Nolan movie. So it's gonna be very exciting.
SPEAKER_01Have you played to see it yourself? I was gonna duck that one on my anti-epic grounds, but you know, the buzz it's been getting is such that it may be obligatory.
SPEAKER_00I feel like you kind of have to see it. I mean, I uh you know me, I'm a huge Nolan fan. I decided I wanted to go back and watch a bunch of Nolan movies. Um I started off with uh Batman Begins, which I have to say didn't really do it for me. I'm curious, Jonathan, have you ever seen a Batman movie?
SPEAKER_01I've seen the first new one, the Michael Keaton. Michael Keaton Nicholson one. And I might have seen another one, but that's probably when I hopped off the train. I mean, I I was a fan of the the TV show, which is sacrilege to serious Batman uh advocates, but there's a a line and maybe apocryphal, but it's it's I think it's true, in which Nicholson said to Keaton, hey kid, I guess we just sit back and let the costumes do the acting here.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's not really fair, because in that first movie, Nicholson pretty much eats all the scenery. So here's that. I am not a big kind of comic book movie fan. I did see that Batman. I saw the The Dark Knight. There's some good stuff in there, uh, but it's not really my cup of tea. Um But speaking of which, have you seen anything good recently, Notham?
SPEAKER_01I've been on the road as well, and so I haven't really caught up with any any fine films in my uh undisclosed location. I have been working my way through yet again some Columbos, but there's always a little pastime that I follow as I saw some Mr. Robert Culp episodes of always a pleasure for me.
SPEAKER_00Yes, he's he's always excellent. Um I actually, based on your advice, I watched two movies uh by the famous French director Jean Jean-Pierre Melville. Yes. Yes. Uh Le Samurai and Le Circle Rouge, or for those of you who don't speak French, but the Red Circle. And uh I'm really embarrassed by the fact that I'd not seen any Melville movies before. And in fact, in general, my uh knowledge of uh French films, European films could be better. I'll I'll leave it at that. Uh but we you recommended these two because they had some connection to the movie we're discussing today. And I have to say, I just simply loved them both. The Samurai, God, what a phenomenal movie. Cannot wait to watch it again. So good. Uh we will at some point be discussing some of those Melville films. I just I'm not sure. Maybe we'll do all of them. Not all of them, but maybe we'll do all of the late 60s, uh early 70s ones. But uh those two in particular were fantastic.
SPEAKER_01He is a monumentally great filmmaker.
SPEAKER_00I've almost seen like three of his films, but I can certainly by this point I will say I I that that that seems that seems to check out. Uh so yeah, I haven't seen anything else good. I did I want to mention one thing very quickly. I did see this week, Mr. Bob Dylan in concert. Uh yes, in Forest Hills in Queens. Um you know, for me at this point, seeing Bob Dylan, it's like going to Lourdes, I guess, for for those of people for believers or going to Mecca. It's like a pilgrimage. It's a it's a bearing witness activity. A hundred percent. I feel like, you know, I remember about maybe three or four years ago, I took a woman I was dating at the time to see a Dylan show, and she didn't know Dylan much at all. She kept saying to me, she had the best line ever at a Dylan show. She was, why is no one singing along? And I was like, Well, because it's impossible. He makes it impossible. But um, I really, you know, was the concert great? Yeah. I mean, he's he's great. His voice he sounded great, actually. The band is great. Is it as dynamic as the shows where I saw him like in the 90s or the aughts? No, not really. But he is legitimately the most important musician of the last, I don't know, hundred years. Uh and, you know, it's like seeing Mozart. It's like seeing Beethoven. It's Bob Dylan. So I felt the need to go, obviously, and it was it was lovely. It was great. I really enjoyed it, and I hope to keep seeing him for a couple more years. Hope one day I drag one of my children to see it so they can tell their kids that they saw Bob Dylan in concert.
SPEAKER_01I I checked that box. We took we took the kids to see him at uh the Pawtucket Stadium in Rhode Island where where the Red Sox AAA team used to be. Oh wow. Oh wow. And uh Willie Nelson opened. He sounded marvelous as well. It was a it was a very good show. Bob was barking a little bit through some of the songs, but you know, Bob can be very uneven in concert. But we saw him last year. It was uh it was a real pleasure. It has been a while since I've had one of my if he rose off the stage right now, I would not get the slightest surprise uh moments, but but uh you know it it is. It is it is bearing witness.
SPEAKER_00It's bearing witness. It really is. And I'll say this record. I saw him in 1999 at a club called uh Tramps in Chelsea in in Manhattan. I lived around the corner from there. It was a it was like a day he announced the show the day of. Um it's considered one of his greatest shows on the Never Ending Tour, which began in 1986 or 7. Uh it was a it's one of my most memorable musical experiences of my life. And I know that I will never see a Dylan show that will possibly top that one, mainly because he played Visions of Johanna. And I'll tell you one story. I know we're getting off topic here, but this is a good story. Um I was talking to a guy before the show, and I said, I just want to hear Visions of Johanna. And he played it, which was extraordinary. It's like my favorite Dylan song. And I leaned, I leaned over the guy, and I'm like, I can die now. I just talk about Dylan, play Vision of Johanna. And then about 10 minutes later, or 20 minutes later, he played uh this incredibly beautiful version of Every Grain of Sand. And the guy leaned over to me and he said, Yeah, and he said, Aren't you glad you didn't die for Johanna? You wouldn't have missed that. Good one. There you go. There you go. So that was my big experience for the week. Now, what are we talking about today? The 1973 political thriller, Day of the Jackal. What's it about? An international assassin is hired to kill Charles de Gaulle, the president of France, and the police uh begin a manhunt to stop him. And chaos ensues. Ah, directed by Fred Zinneman, screenplay by Kenneth Ross, based on a book by Frederick Forsyth, The Day of the Jackal, uh, which by the way, I did listen to the audio version of it this week. I was driving a lot this week. I listened to it, and uh, we'll get into that at some point uh during the episode. Cinematography is by Jean Tournier, edited by Ralph Kemplin. It stars Edward Fox, Michael Lonsdale, Derek Jacoby, Jean Martin, Alan Bedell, Tony Pritton, Cyril Cusek, Eric Porter, Delphine Seyrig, Olga, Georges Picot, and a bunch of other French and British actors. Uh, let's see, it was nominated for Best Film Editing at the Academy Awards. It did not win. Also nominated for seven BAFTAs, it won Best Film Editing. It's not on the AFI list, not in the Sight and Sound list, not on the Indy Wire list. So, Jonathan, what say you? Day of the Jackal. Is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie, or is this a great movie? It's a really good movie. Ooh, somewhere between good and great. Yes. That's fair enough.
SPEAKER_01And I didn't think very good. I wanted to go a little higher than very good. I and I slot in really good as just above very good, but I couldn't bring it all the way to great.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna go great. I love this movie. I adore this movie. And look, you know, you talk a lot about um the um having an emotional connection to a film. This is a weird film to have an emotional connection to, except for the fact that when I was a child, uh my dad and I watched this film. He loved this movie. And I this is the this is the kind of a movie that when I saw it as a kid, kind of got me to fall in love with the movies. You know, so it just has it it always has this kind of very special place uh in it for me. And every couple of years, I was just like, I want to watch the movie again. And whenever I watch it, I'm like, oh, it's so good. I show it to my kids. Uh I'll have a funny story about that experience. Um, I just it's one of those movies that I just I could sit down and watch any time and I love it and I'd never get bored of it. I think it's fantastic. And I want to say one thing about this because I didn't mention this earlier, but but this week, Jonathan and I are celebrating the first year of this podcast. This is actually our 40th episode. Very exciting. Yes. It's biblical almost, you might say. Send balloons our way. Please, please. Or buy us a cup of coffee, one or the other. Um, and if I have mentioned already, if you haven't subscribed, please do that now. And also please, you know, give us a thumbs up to all the things that you know we like to do to help out with the podcast. Um so what I was getting at here is I went back and I listened to our first episode, which was All the President's Men. By the way, if you're if you're curious, I cleaned up the audio on that, so it sounds a thousand times better than when we first did that one. So if you haven't listened to it in a while and wanted to do it again or haven't listened to it at all, check it out. It sounds really good. But I was listening to it and one of the observations that you made about All the Presidents' Men is that you know what happens at the end of the movie. You know that Nixon resigned, and yet this movie still is suspenseful. I felt the same way about this movie. You know that De Gaulle doesn't get killed to the end of the movie, and yet this movie maintains the sense of suspense and the excitement of the movie does not dissipate, even though you know how it's going to end. Well, you don't know exactly how it's going to end, but you know that de Gaulle is not going to die.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's a it's a nifty trick because you there it does hold suspense extremely well, even though those with a vaguely passing familiarity with history know that de Gaulle was not assassinated. And so you know it's it's not going to work out, but the the suspense is in how it's going to unfold.
SPEAKER_00I will say the funny thing about my daughter. I showed her this movie. At the end of the movie, her first thought was, it's really a shame after all the effort he put into it that he didn't kill DeGaulle. I sort of, you know, I mean, I can see where she's coming from that one. It's a little bit dark, but you know, it's uh it's uh it's a fair take. Uh one thing about this movie that I think is so wonderful is that it's the process in the movie is the payoff, right? This is not a character-driven movie at all. And I wonder if that's one of the reasons why maybe you don't like it as much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that uh that holds it back a little bit for me because there is not a lot of depth to the characters, although I must say uh the principal cop is uh Michael Lonsdale, and I just so love the work of Michael Lonsdale. A lot of people think of him as I think Dax from uh Moonraker, the James Bond movie. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's right. That's right. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Which I suspect had had an overwhelming influence on a young Elon Musk and not for the good, because uh he may not have realized that Dax was supposed to be a really bad guy. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But Lonsdale is one of the Titans. He wasn't a movie star, but he was a participant in in the French New Wave, and he worked with everybody. And when Michael Lansdale shows up in a movie, I feel like I know I'm in good hands. I just have a tremendous admiration for him as an actor and the chances he took and the people he worked with, but also his professionalism as an actor. And he's uh uh my favorite part of this movie. I think I said to you offline, you know, I would have liked this movie even more if it was it was called um that guy who chased the jackal, you know, or something like that. Because I find his The Day of the Guy Who Chased the Jackal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Not as catchy, but it could have worked, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01But he's easily my favorite character in the movie, and and I'm I'm so so happy to always be in his company.
SPEAKER_00So the thing is also, I having uh listened to the book, I don't actually do audiobooks very often, but I was had this, I had a long drive uh the last weekend, and I thought, well, you know, I I do want to kind of want to read the book. I don't really have time to do it, so I'll do the I'll do the uh the audiobook. And and what I noticed in the book, and the book is wonderful by the way, and I read it as a kid and I loved it. I read all of Forsyth's books when I was a kid. I was a big fan of thrillers when I was when I was like a teenager. Um and there's a lot more process in the book. The book is really all about the there is some character development, and there is like a lot of character background on the characters, um, not the jackal so much, but the other characters. But the uh the process is intense, I'd say, in in the book. But one question I have for you is is there too much process? Does this film get bogged down at all in process?
SPEAKER_01Oh, not for me, but you know, I love it procedural. Uh and and there were you've got two separate movies here that kind of vaguely intersect. You have uh Fox, the the jackal, going about his business. You know, he's a real pro, and so he has to do all of these things. He's got to get some identities, he's got to get some weapons, he's gotta move around different countries, and he's gotta set himself up for the perfect crime. So that's like one movie. And then you have the the the cops who were get who got wind of the plot and are chasing him, the Lonsdale-led part of the movie, and that's a real hardcore police procedural. And that's, as I said, that's my favorite part of the movie, and that's wonderful. But both are extremely well done as they as they converge towards each other. Um, for so I don't mind that kind of procedural stuff. In fact, if you take a 70s movie, The Laughing Policeman, which I don't think is a great movie, but there's a lengthy sequence at the beginning, maybe 30 to 40 minutes, where there's a terrible crime and then the cops show up and they do the investigation, and that's just all procedural. And that part of the movie I loved. And then they went on to kind of solve the case, and it was kind of got silly at that point.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I didn't love that movie so much, actually. That was not one of my favorites. But the thing I'll say about the process part, I mean, I agree with you 100%. I love a good procedural. And I found the the the there are likes are lots of there are lots of things in this movie that I guess in a maybe in a modern setting would have been edited out. You know, I'm thinking about, for example, when when when the jackal is beginning to plan how he's gonna kill De Gaulle, he goes to a like a like a pharmacy or something, and he buys like hair, hair tonic or buys a hair color. And like I that scene did not necessarily need to be in there, but it also does push the plot along because it becomes clear, oh, he's going to color his hair. He's gonna find some way to change his appearance. So that is a little bit important piece of business that that's in there. But like another thing, for example, and this is one of my favorite, oddly first scenes in the movie, is that there's a at some point there's a French uh official who figures out that there's this plot against de Gaulle, and uh they show him writing this report and they give it to a Motor cop, and the cop then drives it to the presidential palace. Like, this is 30 seconds that does not need to be in the film. I love it. I think it's great. Because it in that very brief little moment, follow though by the way it's filmed, it captures the sense of foreboding and the seriousness of the moment. And I just love that the film doesn't is not afraid to do that, to slow down and to kind of give you those little pieces of business, as you would say, that I think enhance the kind of uh uh uh tension and suspense of the movie.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I think that's exactly right. And I say that as someone who generally thinks that most movies could be trimmed down a little bit. And this is not a this is not a short movie, but it didn't feel sluggish at all to me. And so, especially with the Fox stuff, Fox is a as his character is a bit of a cipher. You know, we don't really get a lot from him. So what we can get from him is his professionalism. And the way, and everything we see him do, I'm pretty sure, has a payoff later on in the movie. So these are like little stones that are being put down that will be picked up. And I think what we get, really the only thing I get from Fox over the jackal, that is, is his professionalism. And so seeing him act in this professional way, I think is important for us to have any kind of investment in the character. I can't say I was that invested, but you can't, you know, even though he's an unambiguously bad guy, you can't watch a two and a half hour movie about an assassin without, in some sense, being with the assassin a lot of the time. He's the guy whom who makes it hard to really be with a lot. But nevertheless, it's it's it's the craft of his that you appreciate.
SPEAKER_00So let's let's just step back and get to sort of how this movie opens up. Now we begin with this with this voiceover explaining that uh the OAS is this group of, I guess what do you call them in um uh renegade generals, officers who had served in the French army in Algeria and were furious with deaul because deaul had basically granted Algeria independence. And just to step back and understand this a little better, so France had lots of colonial um uh holdings, I guess like that. Yeah, let's say holdings. Yeah, holdings, right.
SPEAKER_01But Algeria was different. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. There are parts of France proper that came along later than Algeria, and Algeria was like integrated into the French Republic in a way that was distinct. I say this with an unblemished record of anti-colonialism, but nevertheless, you know, the relationship between France and Algeria was a more fraught and complex one for Frenchmen. Aaron Ross Powell Right.
SPEAKER_00And so so in France, Algeria was really seen as part of the country. Left, right, and center. Absolutely. Yes. And so when de Gaulle, who came back to power, I think it was the Fifth Republic, I believe. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yes, in the midst of a coup, essentially. Right. He comes back to power pledging to keep Algeria French, but he is secretly negotiating with the Algerians to grant them independence and to withdraw French troops from Algeria.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, we can go full circle here because, you know, as Bob Dylan would say, de Gaulle realized you can't win with a losing hand.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Yes, that's right. Exactly. And and to his credit, he realized this was a losing situation for for France, and he realized it, and he, I would say, made a rather courageous decision to end the French uh occupation of Algeria and declare its independence. But in doing so, he inflamed these group of generals and and soldiers who had served in Algeria. And also, I think also Alger the Pied Noirs, they were called, French, French citizens, of white French citizens of Algeria. And uh so they they basically tried trying to kill de Gaulle and for years. And the opening of this movie is an actual assassination attempt against de Gaulle. Um August of 1962, I believe it was, or 61. Um, and it was led by a OS leader named Jean Bastine Thierry, I think his name was. Um he was he organized this assassination attempt, it failed. Uh now the book kind of gets why it failed. Uh, it's nothing to do with the fact that they didn't know what time dusk was, and so when these guys were actually shooting at de Gaulle's car, they they couldn't see so well, and so that's why they missed. I mean, they shot like hundreds of bullets, and none of them hit de Gaulle or anyone else in these cars, and he escaped. They rounded up all of the people responsible for it, and Jean Bastien Thierry, who in the beginning of the movie is uh tells his lawyer, no French soldier is going to raise his rifle to me.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Cue the Kerber Enthusiasm music because it did not work out that way for him. He was shot. And that's really what happened. And by the way, it's an interesting story. Everyone else involved in the plot was uh either pardoned uh or granted clemency by de Gaulle, but not this guy. In part, the but what I've read, it's maybe apocryphal. He apparently insulted de Gaulle. He made some comment about how de Gaulle had to wear suspenders or something like that. Something really could insulted his appearance, and de Gaulle didn't appreciate that, and so he's like, well, F that guy, he's gonna get shot. And he did. So anyway, so that's what happened. So so this appears to be the death of the OAS or their ability to kill de Gaulle, and then you sort of have this pivot to the De Gaulle. OAS leaders, they are in um Switzerland, I believe, or Austria, and they are decided, what do we have what do we do? How do we how do we kill de Gaulle? And they decide to hire a foreign assassin. And because the OAS is riven with uh spies and with double agents, and you know, they they nothing that they do remain secret for very long. Um so they hire this guy, Edward Fox, as the jackal, and they bring him to Vienna, I think it is, to meet with them.
SPEAKER_01But before we get to that, let's just give a little hat tip. That initial assassination attempt is is you know very nicely orchestrated in the movie. That whole early sequence is very well done. And I don't think we've paused yet to praise uh Ed Edward Edward Zinneman? Am I getting his first name correct? Fred Zinneman. Fred Zinneman. Edward Fox, Fred Zinneman. Fred Zinneman, who uh had a very interesting career and is a very capable director, it goes all the way back to kind of European roots, uh, one of the refugees. G directors in America, made a number of films that people are familiar with, but I want to give a shout-out to his 1948 act of violence with Robert Ryan, Janet Lee, and Mavery Asterix, who plays a thinly veiled prostitute in that role. It's 1948, and it is full of post-World War II trauma and anxiety in a way that is as gutsy as any early post-World War II American film has been, and we owe so much of that to Zinneman. And his sure hand is obvious throughout this movie. Lots of, you know, not just in the pacing of the film, but in uh in his tendency to use long-shot compositions, uh, which is which are very attractive throughout.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh just a word on and I first of all I always say this. I couldn't agree with you more. I the opening of this movie is it really does capture the look and feel of the film. It's a very naturalistic film. It has a documentary-like feel to it. Um I I I think I it's interesting because the opening of the movie, you know, doesn't involve any of the main characters. We don't see the jackal until 20 or 30 minutes into the film. We don't see Michael Lonsdale until I think it's 50 minutes into the film. Minute 50. I made a note. Yeah. Actually, I did too. I did too. Yeah. It's that's how long it takes. It's crazy. And it really is just trying to create this backstory of understanding what is motivating uh this desire to kill DeGaulle. And I just want to mention about Zinneman really quick. You mentioned an act uh act of violence. Now he's more famously known for directing From Here to Eternity, uh, Oklahoma, uh, A Man for All Seasons, which unfairly beat out Virginia Wolfe for Best of Picture in 1966, and of course, High Noon, the classic of American cinema. Are you a fan of High Noon?
SPEAKER_01Yes, but it's uh it it uh l it goes about its business like clockwork in a way that that you know doesn't hit my sweet spot. So I have you know, it's it's a it's a wonderful movie and all that, but it is a little almost technocratic in that way. Whereas uh I'm in good company because David Thompson also considers act of violence to be Zinneman's masterpiece. And I really think it's I think it's just such an uncommonly provocative and mature movie in 1948. I'm surprised they were able to get it made.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll just say about uh Heinene really quick. I am not a huge fan of that movie, but it does fall into my Grace Kelly category. And any film starring Grace Kelly is one that I will give above average marks too. Um anyway, so that's the opening of the film. And again, like I said, I think it really does set the stage for the movie. I what I like about it is it really this movie is so plot-driven. I mean, it is just it is really about this obsession that the OAS had with killing de Gaulle, with avenging, you know, his retreat from Algeria. And I think it's also based on a belief that by killing de Gaulle, they could somehow take over the country. I mean, it it kind of went to those levels.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Yes, it's a perennial naivete of those who would introduce violence, right? The violence part of the R. That part got down. Ish. Yes. But what's going to happen after? Maybe it hasn't haven't been as well thought through.
SPEAKER_00They haven't thought that well through as they thought that much as through. So they meet, they meet the jackal in uh in this hotel in Vienna. And I mean, again, I think this is a wonderful scene, which to your point really establishes the professionalism of the jackal. Because when he's asked, you know, can you can you do this? He sort of approaches it very analytically. Right? The morality of this is not even in the, like, obviously, not he's a contract killer, so there's not much morality here. But I mean, he is approaching this in a very sort of cold and calculated way, like, can I do it? Can I get away with it? And he really sort of challenges these OAS leaders and tells them, like, you know, you have to hire an outside assassin because you've, as he put it, queered the pitch. Yeah. You know, very British expression. You've screwed this whole thing up. And um when he says he wants a half a million dollars, which I think was three million dollars at uh in in today's money, he demands it in. It's gotta be even more. It probably is more, actually. You're right. Maybe uh yeah, you're right. It's gotta be more. Um he he uh when they say, like, how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna raise that kind of money? He tells them to go rob some banks, which by the way, they do. And just for the record, j that's another thing also. We mentioned the opening scenes of the movie. This is set right in Paris, like famous Parisian landmarks, right? You see the the cars leaving the Elysee Palace, you see them driving over the I don't know if it's the Ponte Neuf, but certainly some beautiful bridge over the Seine. And you know, you really get a feel for the sort of the this the location work on this film, I think, is just extraordinary. Yes. I absolutely love that element of this film.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Of course. It's very attractive and but it's also well integrated with studio work. But they did choose the locations extremely well. It it looked actually kind of expensive in that regard.
SPEAKER_00It did. And I there's one shot of them. They blow up a um an armored car on the streets of Paris, and there's a wonderful shot of this with the Eiffel Tower in the background. I just I just love that kind of I mean I don't I don't think it was uh something was added in. I think it was it was they they filmed in a way to get the F Dow in the background. I guess if you do it, you do in the 1970s. You don't you can't add it to via CGI. Exactly. So I I just think it's it's I love that aspect of the film. I love the production work and the location work on this movie. So Jackal is hired to do this job and he sets out to do it, and you really see again, like you said, the professionalism of this, of how he you see all the pieces, right? You see, you see him doing all he goes to the British Museum, he gets a he gets a new passport, you see the whole process of it. And I think it it kind of I guess the question is sort of after a while, do you begin sort of rooting for him? I told you my daughter watched it, and she kind of was like sorry, felt sorry for him that he missed the he missed the shot. But like, do you end up kind of rooting for him a little bit? I think you mentioned that earlier.
SPEAKER_01I think in a standard assassination movie, you would I would be rooting for him even more. Uh but I just don't I needed more from the the character. I needed a little more charisma. He just didn't do it for me. We talked about Les Samurai, you know, uh Alain Delon also plays a hitman, and you know, I'll follow him anywhere. But even that's a s that's a slightly unfair comparison, I'm just gonna say for the record. Trevor Burrus, Jr. You know, George Clooney and the American, I think he played an assassin in 2010 or something. Or even John Cusack in Gross Point Planck. These are characters that, yeah, I mean, sure, they were amoral, horrified killers, but I was kind of with them in a way that that the jackal, his character is so cold and almost at times so heartless in his in his violence against many that I had trouble warming up to him. There's an underworld figure that he kills, and that guy had a coming and sure, and there's an underworld figure that he doesn't kill, and I appreciated that. But there's a there's a decent body count along the way of civilians that are caught up uh in the damage. And I think there's a patch among moviegoers that if you avoid killing, you know, innocents, even if you're a horrible killer, aside from your target, who was presumably innocent, uh, will be with you. And so with I uh uh the jackal killed too many kind of regular folks for me to really be with them all the way. And I have besides, I had Lonsdale, you know. I'm I'm in the car with Lonsdale.
SPEAKER_00So let me say anything about Fox. I I kind of, you know, I I hear what you're saying. He's not I don't think this is the fault of Edward Fox. I think it's the fault of the way this character is written. You get no backstory, and you know nothing to think about him. I mean, one thing I will say that that I read that that Robert Redford would be considered for this role and Michael Cain to be considered for this role. And I won't I just think that would have been a disaster. Redford, especially. I think having a somewhat unknown actor like Edward Fox kind of gives a adds a little more mystery to the character than if you had somebody really well known like Redford. It it really did, I mean, the the casting did really rely on having somebody who you know fit the kind of uh image of the jackal, which was this very shadowy guy who didn't get a lot bring a lot of attention to himself and who operated sort of in the shadows and was highly professional, but also not really well known by anybody.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I think that's right. Uh I think that's important. I think Redford, an actor I admire, would have been terrible for a role like this because, you know, when you're try- it's a manhunt, and you know, you're you're sitting there saying, hey, it's the guy who looks like Robert Redford. Exactly. Exactly. It really would have stuck out. Although, I mean, Fox presumably is a handsome man and and he's uh has a very fine physique that is displayed repeatedly in the film. But he doesn't he doesn't exude that kind of movie star charisma, at least at least for me. And I think you're right that that it w casting a relative unknown in this part works really well for the purpose of this particular story, and casting a big star would have almost backfired.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's funny, you mentioned the first killing he does, and and it is of this uh forger who creates these documents for him. Now, it's interesting to me because the the forger is a really sleazy guy. Like he comes across as sleazy and he tries to blackmail uh the jackal, which is a bad idea. Yeah. But also after he kills him, you see this like close-up shot of Fox, and behind him is a picture of a naked woman, which I think was supposed to, and you see your some hints of it earlier to give across the idea that this guy was a pornographer. Right. Like this is what this is what he did to make money. And it was I thought it was actually kind of one of the most one of the one of the more ham-handed things in the movie. Yeah. It was almost to say, like, uh, yes, he killed him, but look, look at behind him. Look at what a disgusting pornographer he is. Just it seemed a little too too calculated.
SPEAKER_01Um I did not love the murder of the forger. I would have preferred him just to just murder him. I mean, what kind of a crappy underworld figure are you to try and blackmail the contract killer? Surely that can't be a high percentage move.
SPEAKER_00Uh it's really not not smart. Did he not see how did he not see that coming? I agree with you. I I didn't love that either. It just felt I mean, it's in the book also, but it just felt a little bit like really. Uh and I also would say the way that he kills him, I mean, my God. I mean, we tried we joked before you can kill a good spy, kill somebody with a drinking straw. But like he punches him in the stomach and then gives him a karate chop to the neck, and apparently that's enough to kill somebody? Who knew?
SPEAKER_01But it it yes, A, it's silly, but B, it works for the film because he kills very quickly and quietly. And so this does establish, you know, that he can do that. That that he has a very brisk and silent lethality to him that can happen, you know, instantly. And that's how he kills several other people in the movie.
SPEAKER_00The karate chop to the neck appears to be a very effective way to kill people in the 70s. I did not know that. If you know what you're doing. If you know what you're doing. Now, the other person he that he can have his forger to get these documents for him. He then, and by the way, again, like there's a spun documentary that he needs, turns out to be uh a dedification of a French war veteran, which we don't know what it is. It's hinted. And I love that there's a lot of just hints left here. And we you it's like you see all these different puzzle pieces in the first sort of third or two-thirds of the film, and it doesn't really come together until the end when you see exactly what all of these steps he was taking, what they what they what the intention was. Um but the one thing that is sort of more intentional is when he goes to meet this gun maker. This was one of my favorite scenes in the movie, uh, the gun dealer, played by Cyril Cusack, a British actor. He's wonderful. He's maybe the best, you know, non-Fox Lonsdale actor character in the entire film.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's also distinguished by his professionalism, right? What's really nice about those scenes is the two of them are working at their respective crafts and having very kind of professionally oriented conversations, and they both know that they're professionals and they uh talk at times almost in a shorthand, and he's gonna make him this very, very, very special weapon. And I think it's right that the movie that that he gets the honor among thieves. I mean, normally the assassin covers his tracks by murdering everybody left and right who he does business with, but I think it I don't think this is a guy that gets murdered because he's just he is a member of this inner circle of under underworld figures that that has respect.
SPEAKER_00One thing that I think was interesting about that scene, and I've seen this movie probably a dozen times, I did not notice until this viewing, which is that when they are sitting in the gunmaker's um office apartment, what have you, he there it's a magazine on the coffee table and it on the cover is a giant picture of JFK.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Oh, excellent. I didn't notice that.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Yeah. And this is again August uh or July, I think, of 1963. So it's just a few months before the assassination. And I thought it was interesting that they um brought that into the movie. I I'm not quite sure is it I I don't know if there's like some larger message from that, except just to sort of make a connection between political assassinations and real life and those in the movies, but I thought it was interesting to have that in there.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell And it would have caught the eye of film goers for sure. It would have been they would have seen it on a very large screen. And you're 10 years off the assassination, which was such a traumatic event, at least for American audiences. Right. And so you have that linkage there. It was it was definitely not an accident. But I do want to just repeat that comment about how much I admire the professionalism of the gun maker. You know, he asked them a kind of a series of terse questions, you know, will you get a second shot? You know, how far away will you be? He's just going down the list of all the things he has to do to prepare this very specific piece of equipment. And that's what we have on the assassin on Team Assassin is their professionalism. And that's what you can kind of root for in that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's true. I mean, yes, that's right. And and you the contrast between the gunmaker, his professionalism, and that of the forger, who is clearly, you know, makes a, I'd say, a huge error. Yes. Uh but like there's also little things like he on this on this trip, he goes to France, takes a train to France, and he sort of sketches out how he's gonna possibly pull off the the assassination. And you see him do things like he goes to a French flea market, he picks up these medals. And again, the payoff on that is not until the last like five, ten minutes of the movie. Like you know it's important, but you don't know why it's important. And in a way, it's like you're the the audience is tr is trying to put the clues together in the same way that the police are trying to put the clues together. And that is where while this is happening with the with with Fox, we're still we're seeing the French sort of machinations of trying to figure out what's going on. Is there some kind of a plot? And they they they kidnap this guy. Um what's the name? Zelensky, I think his name is or something. Zelensky something, it's very similar to the Ukrainian president's name. Played by Jean Martin. He is kidnapped. In the book, by the way, he is coaxed into France to go see his apparently dying daughter, and then he's kidnapped. Yeah. So he is kidnapped. Uh he is and he is like the adjutant to the gang of baddies. Exactly. Exactly. The gang of baddies, right, who have moved to Rome and have secured themselves in a hotel to wait out the jackals' plants. Um and he is kidnapped, right? He is taken to France and he is tortured. Yes. And the torture scenes in the movie are brutal. And I, you know, two things I want I want to get your take on the torture scene. But one thing I think is interesting about this is that the actor Jean Martin, who plays uh the poor agitant who's getting who's getting, you know, uh tortured, was the the colonel in The Battle of Algiers, which is a famous you know movie about uh the French occupation of Algeria, but in particular the French use of torture. So talk to us about this whole torture situation and why you think this is an important part of the movie.
SPEAKER_01I think it was really gutsy uh to to have the torture scene, and it's you know, it's a pretty elaborate I mean, it's not as brutal as they would be today, but nevertheless we get it's unambiguous and it's unpleasant. And it's important because torture was a white hot issue in France. And the use of torture in the Algerian war was just enormously controversial, and it was also important in the movie world. Goddard's second feature was called Le Petite Soldat or The Little Soldier, and it took place in Geneva, and it had to do with subterfuge between OAS figures and the FLN figures in Algeria, the resistance, and each side participated in kind of war crimes in the movie. That movie was banned in France. It wasn't shown uh for several years. It would have been Ghadard's second picture, but it wasn't. Just the suggestion that the French authorities were engaging in torture. And there's a uh Melville picture from 1966 called The Second Breath, in which the police are interrogating a prisoner, and there's a really an odd little jump cut there because essentially they were they were waterboarding poor Lino Ventura, and the French authorities wouldn't let that scene be shown. So it was an extremely, extremely sensitive issue, and to show the French authorities torturing this suspect to get the information out of him is so meaningful in the context of the movie, so meaningful at the time and important for what the movie is is trying to say, whatever it is. I mean, it's, you know, it's a thriller with an assassin and it's a police procedural, but it does seem to also have some things to say about the way in which the French are comporting themselves.
SPEAKER_00So this gets us something that I wanted to talk about, and I don't know, I may be reaching here. Okay, not the first time I've done this, but I want to just put this out there because I think it's sort of interesting. So the only character that we get a backstory in this in this movie is a female OAS spy. She's played by uh Olga Georges Picot, and she actually, by the way, was in Love and Death. She played the um the Russian countess who seduces uh Woody Allen. Um we get a slight backstory on her. We see her go to her apartment where she uh she's met by, I guess, her handler, who burns the photo she has, uh, this is of her, I guess, her dead husband who had died in Algeria, and letters that she'd received from him. In the book, by the way, she what happens is her brother who fights in Algeria, is killed, and then she gets together with somebody in his unit, and then he is killed. Um, so and we see her tearing up and crying as as these these pictures and these letters are burned. So you get a little bit of backstory as to an explanation as to why she is doing this. And then also you do get a little bit of understanding of the motivation of the OES leaders when they are interviewing the jackal. And I contrast that with the French officials, who, aside from Lonsdale, are basically buffoons. Now, that is not that unusual in thrillers. There's always like the one renegade cop who's has to fight against the system to like get the assassins. So it's not like a crazy thing to have to put in a movie. But I do feel like what the movie kind of does is it uh sands down the differences between the French and the OAS and in a sense almost makes them seem as those two sides of the same coin. Do you do you have that sense of it as well?
SPEAKER_01So I come at it from the other direction. I guess because it's just impossible for me to conceptualize the OAS as sympathetic in any way. 100%. But so I think it's really more saying it's more critical of the French establishment than it is elevating of the OAS. Although, again, there were a lot of people in France, I was not rooting for this team, you know, who felt betrayed as the classic stabbed in the back type stuff. You know, we would have won this war if they'd only let us. And so we give her that backstory of having the relative or the affiliate who was who was killed and then betrayed, you know, died for nothing and all that kind of rhetoric that they would have. And her character, you know, is a is a very interesting one. That she is able to get so much information from the minister that they planned her with does not reflect well on the minister.
SPEAKER_00Uh no. No. Who, by the way, at the end of the movie, ends up, you know, taking his own life because he gets he gets he gets outed. Yeah, that guy is the easiest mark. I mean, she's just like, what emergency? You know, whatever. He's like, oh, it's nothing. What emergency, and they kissed her in what emergency? I guess this guy just gives up everything to them.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell, no, she might as well have been lying there in bed saying, hey baby, you got any state secrets for me? I mean, it's it is that level of of you know that's how easy it is to get stuff out of this.
SPEAKER_00I know. I I that felt a little bit forced. Like maybe she could have I don't know. I that this like I mean she just asks him straight up like what's happening. It like doesn't like go about in sort of a roundabout way.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell So it's it's borderline silly, but it serves two purposes that you've already gestured at. One is it shows that the the French officials are not our best people. And then secondly, and in accord with that, that Lonsdale is like just way smarter than that. I mean, he's you know, they're sitting around the table, it's a secret thing, and they ask the police commissioner, you know, what we really need for this type of job is a detective type figure. Who do you got? And he says, my deputy is the best is the best man in France, or the moral equivalent of that. And Lonsdale, you know, runs circles around these people. He is able to uncover things that they would never have been able to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, Lonsdale is he's wonderful in the film, and he is uh it's a little bit of a trope, the way that he is the only single person who seems to understand like how to actually do his job. But I will say the the thing that I loved, particularly about this movie, because there's a similar idea. Okay, so the movie starts off with him, he gets a sign for the to find the jackal, he reaches out to all these different security services around the world, and we only really see the connection with the the the the in the UK. Right. He meets this um uh guy Thomas, I think is the guy's name, who's a a wonderful performance, wonderful sort of role, and it's very small, but it's really I thought I thought it was great. And again, this is a situation where he is a sort of lower level official who's competent, and the people above him are sort of incompetent. I mean, you do get that kind of sense of that feel of it. Again, it's a bit of a trope. I love the whole British part of this film. And I actually, one thing in particular that like kind of has always bothered me about this movie, is that he's looking for a killer, can't find one. He reaches out to the foreign desk and they mention about this guy named Charles Calthrop. That's how they begin to track down the jackal. And they're sitting in the park and he says, Why do you think this guy might be the right person? He says, Well, Charles Calthrop, the first two letters of his name, C H A for Charles, K A C A L for Calthrop, is Chical is Jackal in French. And Thomas looks at him like, that's ridiculous. But I actually thought that was a pretty good insight on his part. I never understood why that was dismissed. I don't even think in the booking was dismissed that that readily. I thought it was a pretty I thought it was pretty impressive, actually. Yeah. Worked for me. I exactly. I thought it was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, through this process, they uh they figure out the Kalthrop, the per one of the there's many cows there's like eight Charles Kalthrops in the UK. They find the one who's on vacation, he doesn't have his passport, so they say this must be the guy. And they do this thing where they basically go and they look for uh passport applications uh and then compare them to death certificates. Now what was interesting about this is Forsyth apparently had like he was a former journalist. He had I think the journalist at the time, he had warned that the British that this was like the way that people actually were able to forge passports. And apparently this is how they did it. And it wasn't until after the book came out that the British made an effort to stop people from using this way to forge passports. Um But from this process, they figure out his name is John Paul Duggan. Uh they track him through France. And interesting question for you. Like at some point, the jackal, because he has a contact with this woman who is seducing the minister, he finds out that they know what he looks like, they know what his code name is, they find out what his car looks like. But he keeps going. And there's a great scene, maybe the only real character development of for the jackal, where he's at this crossroads. He can go to Italy, he can go to France, he can go home, or he can continue the mission, he continues the mission. How do you sort of I mean, I thought that was well interesting and like that he keeps doing it, he keeps continues on this process even though he has basically been exposed to the French authorities.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So it's a s it's a series of cat and mouse exchanges where he is kind of they find clues about him serially, and so his position is compromised, and that's a big one. And he had told the people who hired him that if his cover is blown, he's out. Because he had half the money up front and half the money if he does it. And as you said, there's this scene where he he realizes his his principal cover is blown, and so he doubles back and looks like he's going to head back towards Italy, and then he's at a literal crossroads, but then chooses to continue on with the mission. And I took that as more the the whole honor among thieves thing. That he's this is his work, he's really good at it, he's put all this time into it, and there's something about the challenge of doing it that I think he found appealing. And also the, you know, it's half upfront, half to come. You know, it's still a pretty good paycheck. And you know, I think it's a in that sense, I think it's a a a challenge in within the context of his craft.
SPEAKER_00Yes. It's also very un and this is what I like about this movie. It's very unsentimental. Right? They're really i and in fact, actually in the book, there's a scene. So it's broken into three parts. The opening part, then there's the the manhunt, and then there's a third act with the in Paris with the the day of the of the attempted assassination. And there's a scene there right before they get to the at the end of the sort of the second section of the book where both um LaBelle, who's played by Michael Lonsdale, and Jackal are sort of looking out of their hotels, one looking out of the police station, one looking out of the hotel, onto the Seine. The idea in the book is they're looking at each other.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00That would have been a very cinematic moment to be in the movie. But it would have been sentimental as hell. And I I think it was actually I get why it's not in the movie. It would have been too sentimental.
SPEAKER_01Also, there's a version of this type of movie that wants to converge the characters. The the the the killer and the person seeking the killer. And I think it I think at least in the movie, having not read the book, that it would be harder to pull off here. That you you get, you know, the the uh the idea that there was a a certain type of equivalency between the two, you know, even if they're one was a good guy and one was a bad guy.
SPEAKER_00But isn't there an equivalency at least in their professionalism? I mean, I think that's they they try to create this kind of commonality from the two. I mean, at one point, you know, Label's, I mean, beginning to understand the jackal, I mean to get to understand how he thinks. I mean, there is a sense of like almost a mind melt between the two of them. But although in the book, in the book, actually, the jackal knows who LaBelle is. In the movie, he does not know who LaBelle is. And so that that is a bit of a diff a difference, I think, from the two sources.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell See, I think that scene would have worked better in the Melville movie, because Melville was very committed to the idea that there was no difference between the cops and the gangsters. Absolutely. They dressed alike, they drove the same cars, they walked alike, and early in the movie when characters walk into a room, you don't even know if they're the cops or the gangsters.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr. In Circle Rouge, the guy says they're uh everyone's a criminal. And the guy says, even the cops, he's like, even the cops. Trevor Burrus, yeah. Right. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus But here I didn't get that buzz. I mean, you get the you get the criticism of French officialdom, but I don't get that, you know, Lonsdale could have as easily been the assassin if in a different if he'd walked in different shoes for a while. I I just don't I don't get that buzz off of him.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Okay, so the the big sort of I I guess inflection point in the movie or the place where things kind of go off off the rails a little bit for the jackal is when he goes to this hotel uh and he meets this woman, Colette de Montpelier. I got her name down, played by the lovely Delphine Sarah, who's a beautiful actress, and she's wonderful in this very small role, and he seduces her at this hotel. And now here's the question. There's two things happening in this scene that is surprising to me. One is this old woman randomly dies. Does the jackal kill her? I don't think he does. I think it's just a random woman who dies.
SPEAKER_01I think it's left open. We were sitting there scratching our heads because it was a very appealing diversion. So it was a piece of good luck for him. And he just seems to be the kind of guy who likes to rely too much on luck. Right. But it's but there's no smoking gun or or a smoking poison capsule, which is how it's been done.
SPEAKER_00It felt like a coincidence, but it's not clear. But then also why does he seduce her? Now later he visits her at her like chateau as a hideout, uh, because you know his cover's been blown. And I I this is something that I was confused by to the extent to which is this a screw up on his part. Does he seduce her? Does he do this because he's lonely, because he you know wants to have sex, whatever? Is that a sort of diversion from his plan? Because one thing that happens after this is that he leaves the hotel and he's tired because it's up all night having sex and he gets in a car accident, which caused him to have to change his plan. So I do wonder a little bit like, is this supposed to be a screw up on his part?
SPEAKER_01No, I I really saw this as in two ways. And there are three things I liked about it. So we have a lot of things to go through here. One is I think it's kind of good Assassin 101. So if he's sleeping with her, he's not sleeping in his room. And ultimately the cops are only an hour behind him at this hotel. Uh so even though he doesn't know they're on his tail that closely, not sleeping in your own room is a good deal. Secondly, man, it must be great to be an international assassin because you can just pick up women at your leisure, you know, and it's uh, you know, it's like shooting fish in a barrel, apparently. It just picks one out and you know, boom. There he is. And then, of course, one has to assume, you know, that that it was an evening's entertainment for him. So it's it's a twofer in that regard. And I also like um her character a lot. Um you know, it's a little French, but she has tremendous sexual autonomy. I mean, she's a married woman. She's not a young woman. She's not an old woman, but she's defined uh explicitly as not being a young woman. And so she she also is doing what she feels like doing. Uh and and I I like that choice for all so for all three of those reasons. I I thought that was all good. And I didn't think that that that accident on the highway seemed like a real freak event. I don't think it was I didn't find him nodding off at the wheel.
SPEAKER_00He was he was yawning right before it happened. And I felt like that there was some. But but I I just the yawn threw me off a little bit. Like why is you know, nothing happened in the movie for by accident. It felt like it was trying to get the idea across that if he hadn't been all up all night having sex with the countess, then maybe he would not have crashed into this car. That was how I kind of thought initially.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I just found it appealing as an accident. You know, part of being a professional is sometimes you're thrown, you know, a curve. You have this plan that's worked out to the millisecond, and then you have this freak incident that happens, and you have to react, you know, in real time to this new crisis uh that has interrupted your plans. And as always, he does a very good job in addressing the challenge that's been approached. I mean, the whole thing could have been over right then and there. That was a pretty serious accident. But you know, he he does he does recover fairly well.
SPEAKER_00But again, like this is another example of how the procedure, the process being the payoff, right? The car he gets in an accident, he steals the other car in the accident. I assume he kills the dog, which is very sad. Oh, I was so worried about that. I was so worried about the dog, but I assume the dog didn't make it, unfortunately. Um get kind of a dirty look, as if to say, you know, yeah, you're you're you're not you're not gonna make it through the rest of the film. Um and then this cop finds the car and they go back to this this accident several times. I mean, first the cop finds it, then they they there's an accident investigation, and then in that part, one of the cops notices that the car had been painted, and he painted the car blue and he realized that there was a white car that's being um I forget it's an Alpha Romeo or something. That and they realize that. And so again, it's like a small bit of of of process, but that leads us to to figuring out where the jackal is. And again, it's it's very slow. It doesn't, it it's it it doesn't there's a lot of these little scenes here, and you're like, why is why is this in here? Why is it so important? You realize there's a payoff to this. So I I think this again, like so much the little process in the movie. Even the thing where like the guy who goes to get the hotel cards, right? That's how they figure out that he's at the that jackal's at the hotel because they have these hotel cards, and like that process is how they they get to him. And and of course, you know, he leaves the hotel early. I think because you're right, I think because he thinks someone's on his trail, or he thinks that he can go bed down this woman. By the way, in the book, you know, she is portrayed, and this is um this is also a reference to the movie, as older woman whose son just uh received his army commission. And in the book, she's feeling a little bit insecure because she realizes like she's not a young woman anymore, and she's she's like, you know, her son is now old enough to be in the army, and there's this like a thing in the book where she's looking in the mirror and looking at her body. So maybe she's feeling a little insecure, and maybe he he senses that. Like he goes to the woman who's maybe a little bit older, a little insecure, who he can who he thinks is maybe is an easier prey, if you will.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell So I didn't see that in the movie, and I'm I'm glad I didn't see it in the movie because I thought she had some confidence for what was in 1973, a woman who would not have been seen in the kind of peak of her youth. But by today's standards, you know, probably w would not be so easily dismissed in the way that that that kind of an older school way would have been. But she seemed to have a real, a real confidence and autonomy that uh that I admired.
SPEAKER_00Yes, but but her ref talking about how her son is in the army, maybe there's I think the point of this was like, you know, maybe she's a little maybe she appreciates his flattery. She says I don't need to uh she doesn't need like his flattery, but maybe she did need his flattery. Maybe she did appreciate his flattery. That's true. He sensed that. Says she doesn't need his flattery, doesn't mean she doesn't need his flattery.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um of course then he goes to her house. I thought this was a funny scene because you know she's got she's visited by the police by by LaBelle. Yeah and that that that is not in the book, by the way. Uh good. Yeah. I love that scene. Oh, I love that. You do love that scene. You love that scene? Well, actually Yes.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead. Sorry. I love that scene because she's like blowing him off. She's a she's an aristocrat. That's a chateau. And this cop is coming to question her, and she's kind of saying, you know, keep your nose out of my affairs, copper, you know, that the moral equivalent of that. And he kind of parries her by saying, I don't think you realize just you know how serious this shit is right now. Yes. And he's I think he's very effective in impressing upon her that this is not, you know, some casual thing, which I think makes her later move also a little bit curious in this.
SPEAKER_00I found that very curious because you know, she's in her bedroom, she sees him pull up, she runs down to the phone. You would think it in a French chateau, even in '73, they'd have a more than one phone. I don't know. I I was very surprised by that. But she can't get to the phone in time. He comes in and they start making out, and she seems very into the whole situation. And then she makes the fatal error of telling him that the cops visited and she knows he stole the car, that he's in, and so forth.
SPEAKER_01And then you know, and so these were these were multiple stumbles, in my view. I don't think the movie hinged on it, so I can forgive that. But none of the or several steps didn't make sense to me. She sees him and appropriately runs to the phone. I thought she made the calculation, I'm out of time. I cannot get this phone call off before he enters the house. And I thought she was kind of faking it because I thought, knowing Michael Longsdale as we do, that she took his admonitions very seriously. And so she just had a what would I do if this guy showed up and I didn't know anything? And I thought she was doing that fairly well. And then they have sex, she's lying in bed, and then she goes with, Oh, and by the way, the cops were here.
SPEAKER_00I I actually, if there's one thing in the movie that didn't ring true, it was this whole situation. I didn't like she clearly understands this guy is a threat, and yet she, you know, goes sleep with them anyway. She could have been like, nah, you know what? Husband's gonna be back tomorrow, you need to leave, they need to go, get out of here. Now, and then she can make the call. And then she has the call. The other people are around, like there, she I mean, it I agree with you. I it was not deftly handled, I thought. And uh beyond that, like well, I'll say this. In the book, she does not get visited by by La Belle, and instead, she finds the gun. Oh. She goes to his luggage and she finds the gun, and then he karate chops her and kills her. Uh here's better.
SPEAKER_01Because he has if she finds the gun, then of course she's asking for it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think here's the thing. You're right. The scene with her and LaBelle is great. Like when she says something about like, was he trying to impress you and she's like, We're not children. But the point is, like, that is a lovely scene, but it doesn't really make sense. I I think it would have been better if it had been handled the way it was in the book. Um, now here's a question. When he kills her, and by the way, like, I mean, very effective strangulation technique that he uses. I know it's good. Within like two or three seconds, she's she's and no no no like you know tension, no like trying to resist, she's just she's dead. Um he looks like he's upset about it. It looked like this was this bothered him. And this again gets to my thing that like this was kind of a screw-up. He got a little too emotionally invested in this. He had to kill her, obviously, but he was a little more emotionally invested in this than just this was just a place for him to stay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe. I don't I don't get a lot of compassion from him, but I don't Did he have to kill her?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, yeah, because he she was gonna call the Bell. I mean, or maybe she was risking La Belle.
SPEAKER_01Yes, okay. So there is that risk. And I guess he's not the tie them up and gag them kind of a guy. But he's not.
SPEAKER_00Although although again in the book, he does that with the old lady at the at the hotel at the apartment building at the end. Yeah. So anyway. So so then he basically becomes his ne the next identity, which is this Danish school teacher named Per Lunquist. Now in the book, just so it's clear, he has two different identities. He has a Danish, actually, it's a it's a pastor, and then he has an American student. And at the end of the movie, he actually is taking on the identity of the American student. And this is where I think the movie really likes the tension gets really rife here because you can feel La Belle is on his trail, and you know, he takes a train into Paris and he's able to just barely escape the police. He goes to the bathhouse, he picks up a guy who unfortunately By the way, animals do not fare well in this movie. Okay? Animals don't so the French guy who that who gets seduced, right? He's on a horse and he gets basically a dog. The dog and the horse run away. Who knows what's happened to them? The dog in the tar gets killed, right? The lobster, the guy's holding a lobster in his hand. The lobster doesn't make it, either does the guy. He gets killed in his apartment, and that's where the jackal is is is hanging out. So we get to the final thing. Wait, no, don't go into the final piece.
SPEAKER_01Because you glossed over something that I thought was so admirable about this movie. So he gets into Paris, and the cops are all over the hotels and the pensions in the entire city, but he's not in them because he's made this, you know, very professional move. He he gets he hops in the cab and says, Take me, take me to a Turkish bathhouse. You can't just gloss over that. That's 1973. You're right. You know what?
SPEAKER_00That's a great point. You're absolutely right about that. That's a great point. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead. It's a gutsy move, and he's there. It took me more seconds than it should have to realize what he was doing. Because in my head, I was saying to myself, does he realize what tends to happen in in Turkish bathhouses in the 70s? And then I realized, oh, he realizes exactly what's going on what's happening. That's right. And this is where he's finding it very easy to pick somebody up. This is, I think for audiences at that time, would have been a challenging thing for the character. He does it without without batting an eye. And you know, there so there are two possible explanations. One is that he's a free thinker, uh, but the other is that this is something he will do for the job. You know, either way, it's really interesting. Uh and either way, it's really sophisticated for 1973. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
SPEAKER_00And I'll tell you what makes it even more sophisticated. In the book, it's made very clear that he does not have sex with this man who he goes home with. It's made very clear that he plays hard to get and then he kills the guy.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Oh, that's ridiculous. Because in the movie, there's no sex on screen, but there's but there's no doubt in my mind that they have sex.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So I do think it's interesting. That is-I haven't thought about this before, but it is interesting that they do kind of make this implication that he does this in pursuit of the job. I mean, it speaks to his professionalism, right?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell, yes. And it's also even more daring, because I didn't know about that about the book. The book didn't have the guts to do it, right? The book has him get together with this guy, but the book needs to retain the assassin's virtue or something by with the whole parts to get nonsense. And again, the movie doesn't show anything, but to me, there was no doubt that he was this is what this is what he was going to do in order to activate his plan. And maybe that was something he enjoyed doing. Maybe it was just in the function of needing to do it for the job. But either way, it wasn't going to stop him. And that was very, very bold. The treatment of sexuality throughout this movie, especially in 1973, I know we're in France. I understand that. But I I really appreciated it, you know, uh from from start to finish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. And uh that's a really good point. I mean, there is something really uh what's the word I'm looking for? There's something a little bit renegade about the way that this is presented. You're right. But again, I think I think it's it speaks to the It's interesting. I think it speaks more to the character. I think the the idea here is that this is what he is willing to do in order to fulfill his mission, if you will. Right.
SPEAKER_01Which is which is, again, in 1973, for him and the audiences a bigger willing than it would be, as say, today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. Um okay, so we get to the finals. Yes, now we're at the finals. Now we're at the finals. So let's sit back a second. The they've lost track of the jackal. They call LaBelle back in, they let him go because they know the name of the person that they're looking for, right? He's sleeping. His wife can barely wake him up. By the way, his wife, the character in this movie, I feel sort of bad for her because all she does in the movie is yell at him. That's basically her that's her entire like the two minutes she's on screen. He comes back, they can't find him, and then LaBelle realizes when this is going to go down.
SPEAKER_01And again, this is one final dig at the suits, right? Because he gets them, he tells them everything, and they say, Oh, okay, thanks, Phil. You've been great. You can go home. You can go home now. Yeah, exactly. Then they realize, oh, don't show the door hitch on the way out. And then suddenly they realize they desperately need him, actually, to finish this off.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and but but you know what? We didn't even mention the fact that he also outs the guy, the French minister, who's being seduced by the OAS agent. And uh the great line where you know he he he basically bugs the guy's phone. Yes, and and the minister of tear asks him, How did you know who to bug? He's like, I bugged all of you.
SPEAKER_01Yes, possibly possibly my favorite line in the movie. All right, yeah. It's really great. It's really great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So then you get so you get to this, they figure out what's gonna happen on Liberation Day, and this wonderful you thought it was stolen footage. I did. It seems yeah, they filmed this on um, I think it was Bastille Day in 1972, I believe it was. Um they, you know, so it's actual real footage of these military parades and of the crowds that were gathered there, and of course, with shots of Labelle interspersed as he looks for uh for the jackal. I mean, I just uh the whole setup is just the the way they photograph everything like the morning uh before the crowds have gathered. I think it's just absolutely beautiful. I it's wonderful. It is.
SPEAKER_01I mean, there I thought there was a the the most subtle change in the film stock, but I thought it was really beautiful. And I was I was so impressed with it. Uh so impressed, in fact, that I thought that they had just inserted the actors, you know, into the action without telling anybody. But apparently, as I subsequently learned, they had permission to do it on on this other day where there'd be a big military parade going on.
SPEAKER_00Right. And this is of course where we see the final the final kind of pl part of the jackal's plan, which is a wonderfully shot scene where it shows a sort of roadway, and then it takes a second or two before you realize that there's somebody coming up on crutches, and another few seconds before you realize, oh, it's the jackal. This was why he wanted this this French identification document. This is why he wanted these medals, this is why he bought a beret, this is why he bought this great coat, all the things he bought to sort of take on the role. of a French World War I guess this is World War II or World War I. I don't know. It has to be. It has to be. Yeah. No, wait, 63? No. No, it could be one. It could be, but I think it is one actually.
SPEAKER_01Because he's in his like 60s or 70s. Aaron Powell You're probably right by the math. I would just I and maybe they just didn't have as many good you know old heroes in the Second World.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe if the weren't as many for World World War.
SPEAKER_01I guess I'm you know we're so primed to think of of World War II as the Great Patriotic War that I just coded that in my head. No, there's got to be one of the bet if we went back and looked at those medals we would be able to tell it was World War I. I'm just saying in my mind I just filled in World War II automatically and that was probably a mistake.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Look all I'm saying is that very few French soldiers who fought World War II were getting medals. That's all I'm saying. Sorry, but you know it's true. So anyway so he he comes across this cop, he says he lives in the building that he had um looked at earlier in the movie and of course he only has one leg. He has the he has the crutches and he has his leg and you see that he's tied up behind his back. And I read somewhere that apparently like they the doctors on on the set told Zinman like he only have like a thing under his life 15 minutes before it can cause like real damage. Right. And I guess it was like an hour or something they had his leg up like that. That's gotta friggin' hurt. He really had his leg up there like that.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus And he rubs his leg. I thought that was a nice move. I didn't I guess he wasn't actually acting but I thought it was very realistic because that you would think you'd rub your leg your leg would be all tingly and whatever if it was bound up like that. And so I thought that was a very realistic move but apparently it was so realistic it was probably actually really happening.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus It was really happening. How you tie your leg up like that, I don't really understand completely I it I am getting into details here. But it's very impressive more limber than I am. I I yeah well he and we see from early in the film we see he is pretty limber. He's in good shape Edward Fox is so he gets to the to the you know place and he then he gives the karate chop to the woman who runs the apartment building another karate chop to the neck who loves the karate chop and um we get to the end of the film which of course now it's interesting because in a way like he does kind of doesn't complete the mission because it didn't kill De Gaulle but he gets it as close as he can to completing the mission without actually doing it. He fires the shot and just as he fires the shot de Gaulle bends over and he he misses him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah it's a clean shot he was successful and de Gaulle unexpectedly moved to like hand a medal to somebody or something like that. But it was a totally totally exogenous shock but you know he was there. He he you know he he he philosophically he pulled it off philosophically he pulled it off that's right he was in position to do it it's very impressive.
SPEAKER_00I mean do you find the ending is it too abrupt for you? I mean I it I always bother whenever I say it always bothers me how how abruptly this film ends. Right he he so he misses the shot LaBelle comes in you know the jackal shoots the cop that he's with kills him and then La Belle picks up the machine gun and shoots the jackal and then that's it. And then we see this scene back at the flat of Charles Calthrop who they thought was the jackal and it turns out he was actually vacationing in the north of England and he was he's very much not the jackal. And so then we find out we don't know who the jackal actually was. Which I just I don't know there's something is that an odd place to end the movie? Does it matter that we don't know who the jackal is they seem invested in that.
SPEAKER_01I didn't think it mattered there it was obviously something they wanted to say in the movie. I think you know those last couple of minutes in the movie are a little goofy for me. You know, Lonsdale grabbing the submachine gun and mowing down the jackal it's not you know this is not the Lonsdale I've come to know and love over the course of the film but you know so there's some closure there.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus No, but I but it didn't feel in character though. It felt very I mean he's very committed he's completely committed to stopping the jackal of course it is a little bit trite that like the guy who led the investigation is the one who actually ends up killing him at the end. Right.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus Yeah I thought that was I thought it was a little bit um and then this little piece of business at the end with oh it's you know we actually don't know who he was yeah I mean maybe they wanted to end on an enigmatic note.
SPEAKER_00It's very enigmatic it always bothered me. I it all I for some reason even in the book it ends very abruptly also. It's almost word for word what happens in the in the movie and it feels very abrupt and I don't know for some reason it always kind of I don't know if it bothered me but it always left me um well it's not annoyed but sort of just frustrated that I didn't I mean maybe that's that's what's good about it. I mean this is a very I don't say it's a bleak ending but it's a very ambiguous ending. No it isn't it's not ambiguous. No I take that back.
SPEAKER_01It's not ambiguous because the jackal's dead it's not ambiguous at all no so in a movie you want to get out quickly after the movie is over. And you know once the jackal is dead and Tagal isn't the movie is over. So you want to very quickly go get to the credits there as quickly as possible. And apparently as you're telling me now in the source material you do have this little enigmatic coda of, oh, you know, maybe he wasn't the figure that we actually thought he was. Let's bury him in the unmarked grave. But I do think you want some sort of you can't just throw the credits up with the jackal lying there. I think you I think just to catch your breath you want some sort of modest little coda scene and that was what was available from the source material. And so they just took it and used it. It it seemed half-hearted to me and and not really following naturally from the themes of the movie. But I didn't, you know it was a it was not a short movie and so it was I'm glad that they didn't linger. I'm glad it was over.
SPEAKER_00You're like I'm I'm ready to go to sleep. I'm done with this movie. I don't know I I it's always an ending that has like I think when I was a kid I like I mean they wanted to know more I'm like well this was this true story like this really happened and you know what's the backstory of course it's not a real not a true story as far as we know it's not a true story. But I I don't know it it's um it it it it does end sort of abruptly but I think it's probably the best way for it to end. I don't know I to me like the end is a little bit anticlimactic almost I mean I don't know how it wouldn't be because the this movie is a chaste movie from beginning to end almost and and so it it is sort of like it's kind of hard to have an ending that isn't isn't so that isn't kind of leaves you a little bit deflated almost. And it's a very quick ending right I mean he comes Belonzo comes in he shoots him and you know moves over about a minute later. That's it. It's there's not much you know there's not much more to going on. One thing I just want to mention two things really quick. One motif that we did not talk about which I love in this movie is the constant references to clocks and watches which I hadn't noticed until I watched the movie a bunch of times this week before we did this episode and I noticed it uh at one point like oh what does every scene start with someone looking at a clock and literally if you watch it again from beginning to end like the guys who are waiting to assassinate DeGaulle begin the movie are looking at their watches. Like every scene begins with a clock there's always a clock in the background people are looking at their watches you can see people's watches it's like this motif I think trying to give you this idea that we are on like a countdown. Right. We're on a timeline. Which at some point we we are in this movie. I mean we don't know what's happening we just know it's gonna be happening relatively soon. We know it we find out two thirds of the way in it's gonna happen in two days.
SPEAKER_01But there is that element of the sort of the clock is ticking for like sort of the entire I didn't notice that but it makes it it's it would be very nicely done if I next time I see it I will have my eyes out for that.
SPEAKER_00There's like two dozen or more I can't I I lost count at some point. There's so many different like shots of clocks and watches. One thing I want to mention also I have a question for you about this but I want to before I get to it um I did go back and watch because I am a completist and I felt like I should just you know I want to be prepared for all of these episodes by the way take the opportunity to buy a cup of coffee if you want to or subscribe to to the podcast because we put a lot of time and effort into getting ready for these. I read the book and I watched the 1997 movie The Jackal well let me rephrase that I began watching it but it was so fucking awful that I literally couldn't finish it. I was like I can't do this and is it isn't there a new miniseries okay so I I watch my girlfriend we watch the miniseries it's fine it's Eddie Redmane he's a good actor it's it's a lot of backstory um about the jackal it's not bad I didn't love it it's it's got some interesting elements to it um the movie though this stars Bruce Willis so right there you know that's trouble uh and then also Richard Gere in what is I I swear the worst Irish accent I've ever seen in a movie in my entire life he's terrible in this movie this movie is so bad it's it's it was unwatchable what's the gear character what who's what is he oh so oh sorry it's so stupid the gear character so it's very complicated the jackal is the international assassin right that's Bruce Willis that's Bruce Willis yes that's right he is hired by some Russian gangster to kill I believe it's the first lady because the FBI had killed the Russian gangster's brother something on the line by he gets $70 million. Wow 70 million yeah it's not a lot of money it's a good payday yeah it's a good payday um he uh the gear thing is that the FBI decide they like gear I guess knew this guy was he's an IRA killer who's in prison in the U.S. who gets freed a like you know Eddie Murphy in 48 hours. Right. He gets freed to help the FBI investigate this and to catch the jackal I don't it's never clear as to why he why he has some special knowledge that he can help find the jackal but he does. And um then his like his girlfriend gets I I that's when I chopped out I couldn't watch anymore. There's a lot of violence a lot of FBI agents being killed a lot of stupidity like Bruce Willis doing all these terrible like uh you know dressed up as like surfer and all these different characters it's just bad it's really bad. Don't see it. Do not watch it. The miniseries it's okay. I actually kind of liked it there's elements of it they're pretty good. It's beautifully shot um and Eddie Redmane is actually pretty good. But I actually am surprised this movie's not been remade more recently like a better remake. The Jackal remake by the way just for the record it's loosely based on Day of the Jackal so to the point where Frederick Forsyth and uh I think Edward Fox asked that uh this movie not be released and that it and it's and that it make clear that it's not a a uh takeoff on the Day of the Jackal because it was so awful.
SPEAKER_01That's funny.
SPEAKER_00Don't don't watch it don't watch it I have the ability to not watch it and I will actually that bill ability this is late 90s really shitty action movie. It's bad.
SPEAKER_01So my question to you I want it before we go and this is you know look this is a this is a a podcast devoted to 70s movies the new Hollywood is this a new Hollywood film to me I don't think so and I don't mean that critically as I said I think this is a really good movie but I would lean on two aspects of it. One is kind of the pedigree of Zinneman you know he's he's more of a classical studio Hollywood guy. Right. He did a great job here but he's not you know his instincts are not of that generation and he followed this up in uh later in his career with a kind of clunky political movie Julia about uh Lillian Hellman with Vanessa Redgrave and Jane Fonda and that you know that I get the I get an older school vibe from him.
SPEAKER_00And also as you said this is you know we I always say you know a character driven and not plot driven as you as you mentioned earlier in the podcast this is a plot-driven movie this is a plot this yeah this is a character yes okay that's what this is a hundred percent uh by the way on Zinneman's point like he did this movie was he he had a seven year break between the uh Man of all seasons and this movie uh and then four more years he did Julie and then five more before he did his last movie so he was not working so much but it's I think this is very impressive for a guy who worked in seven years. And again I think it it you're right I don't think it's a new Hollywood film. But it incorporates a lot of elements of the new Hollywood for a director who really you know as you said came of age in the 40s and 50s. That's when sort of his heyday was right I mean uh high noon I think is 58 is that right I think it's no 52 52 sorry too yeah so you know I I I think it's very impressive and we've talked about some other directors we I think we talked about the guy did um is it Richard Brooks who did looking for Mr. Goodbar. Directors who sort of acclimate themselves to New Hollywood. I I think again it's not a new Hollywood film but it it does bring in some of the naturalistic elements I think of of you know that era of filmmaking.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell But I think Zinneman and I don't mean this as criticism is closer to a kind of Billy Wilder type figure. And both Wilder and Zinneman worked on the legendary uh Feimar film People on Sunday that established the early reputations of a lot of these filmmakers who then made their way as refugees to the American uh you know the Hollywood movie market.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right I I look uh I'll just say this slum up here I this is this is not um cinema as you would say I think this is just a hugely entertaining movie. I think it's just a a great thriller um and a kind of thriller that they don't make anymore or they should be making movies more like this. I I do think there's something about this film it is so it is so like devoted to proceduralism. It's so devoted to just the process. I do think it's what it sets it apart as like a really you know stellar thriller movie.
SPEAKER_01And also we you know to close where we began we bring ourselves to the movies and you know this movie is such an important part of your earlier life and I don't I wouldn't shy away from that this is this is all part of our relationship with different movies.
SPEAKER_00I 100% this is a movie that I think helped help me fall in love with the movies. Yeah and helped me fall in love not just with like you know basic sort of like popcorn movies but something a little more interesting. I mean although this is a popcorn movie I should say but it's a more interesting version of that. And as I as you always say I mean a magic motion action to a film I can I have very distinct memories of watching with my father and him howling or pointing out certain elements of this movie. So uh good film. Glad we glad we I finally chance to review it. Okay so just before we finish up here I want to remind you that if you haven't subscribed or uh just you know all I have to do is just say is make a comment on the movie. Give us a thumbs up if you go to Spotify there is a little button there where you can just hit following you should do that. And also you can rate the podcast you click a little dot dot dot there you click on that gives you a few options at the bottom rate the podcast rate the podcast for us. But yeah but we also love comments and feedback we really enjoy hearing from you in that rate the podcast follow and then leave us a comment that is the three part process that we want you to employ. So again uh follow rate the podcast leave a comment if you want to then subscribe and or buy us a cup of coffee you can do that also we're not gonna stop you we appreciate it. Anyway do those four things or three things and then a fourth thing if you want to whatever it is we appreciate it. Thanks again for listening Jonathan always good to see you and uh I guess we'll see you again next week already absolutely