That 70s Movie Podcast
A look back at the films that defined cinema's greatest era - the 1970s!
That 70s Movie Podcast
Dog Day Afternoon
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This week on That '70s Movie Podcast, Jonathan and Michael wave the white flag for the 1975 classic "Dog Day Afternoon."
This is 70s, New York filmmaking at its absolute peak. Phenomenal acting performances from Al Pacino, John Cazale, Charles Durning, and Chris Sarandon, inspired direction from the underappreciated master Sidney Lumet, Dede Allen's brilliantly paced editing, a razor-sharp screenplay by Frank Pierson, and wonderful cinematography from Victor Kemper. It doesn't get much better than this stone-cold classic.
So grab your guns, book your flight to Wyoming, and step out on the sidewalk for the latest episode of "That '70s Movie Podcast."
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Now, you gotta understand something. If we leave the country, there's no coming back here. You know what I mean? There's no coming back. So that if there's anybody now that you want to talk to, you want to say goodbye to, do it now. Is there any special country you want to go to?
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SPEAKER_02Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirshner. Jonathan, it's been a while. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm reminded of something one of my filmmaking heroes, Claude Chabral, once said, which is you just have to accept the fact that sometimes you're the pigeon and sometimes you're the statue.
SPEAKER_02I've never heard that before, but I may I may steal that. That's pretty good, actually. Uh so right now I'm guessing you're the statue. Is that what you're telling me? It's been kind of a statue week. Yeah, I hear that. Uh I actually moved uh last week, which uh and you had mentioned this to me at one point that moving is like the third most traumatic experience after death of a loved one and divorce. Yes. And uh I actually look this up and there's like surveys that show that people actually say moving is the third most stressful thing behind uh divorce and death of a loved one. So and having gone through the experience, I can say for with some degree of certainty that's an accurate poll result. It's pretty goddamn stressful to move.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, it's destabilizing.
SPEAKER_02It's destabilizing, it really is. But uh, I'm in my new apartment, so hopefully uh, you know, there will be smoother paths uh ahead. Uh okay, before we get into today's movie, which I'm very excited to talk about. Jonathan, have you seen anything good recently?
SPEAKER_03I've seen a smattering of things, and I wanted to mention one one that isn't that good and one that was pretty good. I saw the Rachel Papers, which is from 1989, a British film I was attracted to by the cast, Ioni Skye, Jonathan Price, and James Spader. Ooh, sounded like my kind of thing, based on a Martin Amos book. And it was disappointing. Uh I'd say border borderline bad. I really had tips of the fact that it did not have a Hollywood ending. But the the reason why I wanted to mention this this is that it sent me scurrying to to Amos Land, and I've been reading the The Pregnant Widow, I think is the name of the book, and it is marvelous, and I mention it here because I think that people who like this podcast will like this book. It takes place in 1970, and it really is ruminating in a lot of the issues that comes up in our 70s film. So that's the bad movie I wanted to mention. But I do also want to give a shout-out to a movie called A Secret from 2007 by Claude Miller. I had mentioned him on the podcast earlier. He's the one who did The Inquisitor that I was so impressed with a few months back that I went on and on about. This movie I avoided for a while because it I thought it had a Nazi theme, which I don't do, but it turned out to be more of an occupation picture, which I do like because Nazis uninteresting, life under occupation more interesting. And it was an interesting drama, and it wasn't great, but I'm I'm glad I saw it. Uh okay, let me ask you a question.
SPEAKER_02Is there a good Nazi film? Can you anything that you can recommend that you think is pretty good? I can think of one, but I'm curious what you come up with.
SPEAKER_03I don't I I I'm sure I will regret saying this. I don't believe it's possible to make a good movie about Nazis. I think it is possible to make great films about occupation. And the reason is that occupation is drama because it can be steeped in the kind of moral ambiguity that we on this podcast live for. Whereas Nazis are just bad guys. There's just there's there is nothing dramatically interesting about purity.
SPEAKER_02I kind of agree. I feel I feel like when you bring Nazis in, it's like you're just choosing the worst of the worst. Like like breaking bad is a good example of this, actually, because breaking bad is basically like Walter White's descent into evil. And of course, what's at the bottom of the well? Neo-Nazis. Right? So I think you have a point there. Although in that case, I think it worked. I was actually gonna say, I thought Downfall was a pretty good uh Nazi movie.
SPEAKER_03Uh that German movie always memed, you know, from the I've seen all the memes, which are spectacular, and you know, that actor uh his he's so wonderful in general. And so, yeah, but I haven't seen the movie because, you know, Nazis.
SPEAKER_02No, I hear that. And I I generally don't like to see Holocaust movies. I like to see Nazi movies. Most Holocaust movies I find just, you know, they don't work for a variety of reasons. That actually is a really good movie, I gotta say. Downfall. I haven't seen it years ago, but I remember thinking at the time it was quite, quite good. Uh for some reason I'm also thinking another great German film, The Lives of Others. That's not about Nazis at all. That's about communists. That is a great film. That is a phenomenal movie. It's a phenomenal movie. Um I don't think it's a 70s film, so I don't think we can do it. It's got too happy of an ending.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But it really is good. But for those people out there who actually watch not 70s films, you know, I recommend it heartily. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Uh so I've been, as I said, I've been dealing with this move for the last like you know two weeks or so. So I didn't watch a lot, but one night I did check out uh The Hot Rock, which was directed by John Schlesinger, who of course directed Marathon Band. Peter Yates. Oh, sorry, Peter Yates, excuse me. I'm sorry, I got that confused. Peter Yates, right, who directed The Friends of Eddie Coyle. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which we, of course, loved very much. But the connection you were making, and I'm sorry to interrupt, is that it was written by Bill Goldman. Exactly. That was Marathon Man and Hot Rock.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's a little late here as we're recording, so I think maybe I'm not completely with it, but you're right. That's the connection. William Goldman wrote both Marathon Man and The Hot Rock. Both deal with safe deposit boxes and diamonds. A safe deposit box fetish. Yeah, exactly. Uh so this movie, I have to say it was fine. I didn't love it. It's I don't know. It it it's um it's it goes back to my thing about Redford that he's uh he's a fine actor, but he's not a great actor, and I didn't love his performance in the movie. It was entertaining to a degree, but it just wasn't incredibly memorable. Yes, I would say. I'm a little down on the hot rock.
SPEAKER_03Uh I thought it was it almost was like a series of four redundant caper films as opposed to one long caper film. They just did the same thing over and over again four times. Aaron Powell I kind of agree with you.
SPEAKER_02Like it it it yeah, it it and I mean yeah, like George Siegel's not bad in it and and Love George Siegel. Yeah, he's he's good in it. He's always sort of good, uh, but it just in general, it didn't do a lot for me.
SPEAKER_03Okay, but what does it have? What it has is helicopter shots of the city, including the under construction World Trade Center. Okay, so you should watch The Hot Rock for that reason alone.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell So the conclusion of the movie, like and it's the weirdest thing. After the they they get the diamond, there's this incredibly long scene of Redford walking through the streets of New York that I don't understand why it's in there, but I did really enjoy New York in the 70s. And before that, there's these cool helicopter shots, which actually are kind of fun. So you're right, but not not a great movie. Not a great movie. Um we uh I wanted to make a comment. We marathon man, I gotta say, we had a nice response to that, even though we we you know kind of uh, for lack of a better term, crapped all over it. Um we did get we did get one negative comment uh from a uh a listener who said that uh I'm gonna read this comment. He said you began the episode by referencing how much you enjoyed an action suspense film you saw in London. That movie was called Fuse. I didn't mention that, and then proceeded to point out every plot hole in Marathon Man. I bet the film you enjoyed had as many or more plot holes. I gotta tell you something. Not really. Like I didn't there were a ton of plot holes in that movie. I mean, if I went watched it again, I probably would find some. It was a pretty coherent story. I mean, it was a little bit unrealistic, but you know, somewhat coherent. But he says a good point here. He says, uh, is the Oscar caliber cast cause for the critique? And that's actually a good question. I think there is something to that. I think maybe we were harsher on Marathon Man because it is so highly regarded and because it has so many individuals in the movie that we like, Dustin Hoffman, Roy Scheider, uh, you know, Bill Goldman wrote it, directed by John Schlesinger. It's a lot of good people in this movie. And I think maybe I don't know, you tell me. Do you agree, Jonathan? Maybe we're a little harsh on it because of that?
SPEAKER_03Well, maybe you were. Let's let's remember. I I I said it was just it was fine but ridiculous, and I enjoyed you know walking through the endless series of massive plot holes. Nevertheless, I did think, you know, scene by scene, it was effectively done. But the larger point is true. I mean, expectations can be just ruinous of a movie. The best way to see a movie is to walk in and have no idea what you're about to see. But you know, you have to choose what you're going to watch. So you do need to know something about it. But once I know I want to see a movie, I avoid reading anything about it. Uh and I've had this happen to me over and over again where I've gone in to see movies that have gotten all these raid reviews, and you kind of sit there and say, okay, amaze me. You know, I I hear you're great. Right. And that's just not fair to a movie.
SPEAKER_02We we've had this conversation before. I think this is a real issue, by the way. You you should avoid uh going into a movie with everyone telling you how great it is. My favorite this is Fargo, which I saw years ago when it came out. It got like I remember reading Eber's reviews, it was an amazing review. And I went in and I was like, eh, uh I don't I didn't really care for it. And then I went back like six months later. I'm like, maybe I missed something and with lower expectations, and I was like, oh my God, this is a phenomenal movie. And I'm not a Cone Brothers guy, but I think Fargo is a fantastic movie.
SPEAKER_03One of my uh That's why young people can't watch Citizen Kane. You know, you plop them down and say, Okay, it was the greatest movie that was ever made. Now watch it. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02No, that's a good point, actually. And and for the record, I'll just say, you know, my my my daughter did see, we watched Godfather together, and he'd tell her this is the best movie ever, which is a mistake, but she loved it. All right. But you know what else she loved? Today's film that we're talking about, Dog Day Afternoon. Let's get into it, all right? Um, 1975 film directed by Sidney Lumet. This is our second Sidney Lumet film. The first one was Network, the film he made after this movie. At the time, we had a lot of praise for Sidney Lumet. Uh I think we both agree he's a fantastic director and I think really an underrated director. I think I I think he deserves more credit than he receives for the most part. Um and one movie that I I want to mention is The Verdict, which I think is a fantastic movie. Paul Newman's best performance. We could do that one. That's a 70s kind of film, don't you think?
SPEAKER_03Well we could, but I want to continue to nominate Prince of the City, which I think from 81. I think it is more of a 70s film than Serpico, Lumet's film from 73. Interesting. And so it's an interesting comparison, but I'm I'm very, very high on Prince of the City, Lumet 81. I I'll tell you this one.
SPEAKER_02Uh I've seen Serpico, I like it. Uh but I I haven't actually I just never seen Prince of the City, amazingly enough. Oh, I think it's your kind of movie. I think I think I would love it. I think I would love it. Oh no, high expectations. Yes, that could go your script. Okay, I got I got off the subject here. Okay, Dark Day Afternoon. I had 75. All right. Sydney Lutt directed screenplay by Frank Pearson, based on a life magazine article written by P. F. Klug called The Boys in the Bank. Clever. Clever, yes. Cinematography. Actually, there's a little bit of a double entendre there, maybe. Yeah, okay. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Cinematography by Victor Kemper. This is I we done several films, I think, by Victor Kemper, haven't we?
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes. Big shout out to Kemper. He did Friends of Eddie Coyle. He's one of the major cinematographers of the 70s. We should always pause and acknowledge, you know, these behind-the-scenes people. So many great 70s films were shot by Kemper, uh, you know, and and other of the great DPs. Just we have we talked occasionally about the candidate. He did that. Again, we already mentioned Eddie Coyle. He did some collaborations with uh Castevetes. But basically he did like two dozen 70s films. Half of them, I think, are significant 70s films.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he also did um he did Mikey and Nicky, which you mentioned. He did uh Slap Shot, which is a movie we may have to talk about at some point. Uh and Justice for All, The Jerk. Love that movie. Uh yeah, he did quite a few things. Yeah, and the cult classic The Gambler with um James Craig. That's right. Uh okay. Let's see. And it's the uh this movie was edited by Dee Dee Allen, who is in it? Well, this is where the fun begins. Al Pacino, John Cazal, Charles Derning, Chris Sarandon, Penelope Allen, Sully Boyer, Susan Paris, James Broderick, Lance Henrickson, Carol Kane, and Dominic Chinese? Cinese, that's how you pronounce his name. Junior Soprano. Junior Soprano, thank you. Also, Johnny Ola in The Godfather. Ah, there you go. Very, very important there. Yeah. There's several film folks who are in The Godfather who are in this movie. Uh I guess it's actually just Dominic and uh Oh, and John Casal, obviously, and Pacino. Okay. What is it about? Let's see. Two men attempt to rob the first Brooklyn Savings Bank in New York City, in part to pay for a sex change operation, and chaos ensues. Uh let's see. What was it? Uh nominated for best picture, best director, best actor, best supporting actor, uh actor was Al Pacino, Best Supporting Actor, Chris Tirandon, best original screenplay, which it won, and best filmed editing. It is number 89 on the IndieWire Top 100 movies of the 70s. By the way, if you want to mention that this movie lost Best Picture to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. If you want to read off to you what was nominated that year for Best Picture, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Barry Linden, Dog of Day Afternoon, Jaws, and Nashville. That is a murderer's row of movies right there. It's the 70s out there, man. It's the 70s. You just got one classic after another. Although I know when it comes to Jaws, not you're not as big a fan. By the way, from the record, cannot wait till we do Barry Linden. That's gonna be my one of my one of my favorite ones to talk about. I love that film. Okay, so we've come to that point in the podcast, the point that everybody looks forward to and waits for with bated breath. Jonathan, tell me. Dog day afternoon, is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie? Or is this a great movie?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm gonna milk the suspense by doing something that I do well, which is take issue with one of your comments already. You said the fun begins with the cast, and then you said it right after you introduced Dee Dee Allen. Dee Dee Allen is one of the great cutters of our time. She started her career with Odds Against Tomorrow, a spectacular noir from the one of the last noirs in the late 1950s, and it continued all the way through Wonder Boys. She was um Arthur Pennsylvania movie. Yes, and she was Arthur Penn's dedicated cutter. She cut Bonnie and Clyde, she cut my beloved nine moves, one of the great editors of our era, and I think her work in this film really shines. Having said that, this is a great movie.
SPEAKER_02It took a long time to get there, Donovan. But okay. I look, I will praise Dee Dee Allen. The editing in this movie is spectacular. Absolutely. The pacing of this film is so good. But we do really have to I I stand by what I said earlier. The acting in this film is some of the best acting of any film that we're going to talk about. I agree, but we've got to carve out some space to talk about pacing after we praise all the actors. Exactly. Exactly. Now I want to say on a personal note how much I love this film. This is one of my favorite movies of all time. Uh largely because my father absolutely positively loved this movie so much. And why did he love this movie? Because this movie to him was sort of the quintessential New York movie of the 70s. And actually, I'm going to broaden that. This is the quintessential New York movie. Even though it is basically set, I'd say what, two-thirds, three-quarters, 80% of the movie is set inside of a bank. This is such a great New York movie with so many sort of New York types that you would see in the 70s. And so when I was a kid, my dad loved watching this film. We watched it many times together. It is uh just in the Cohen family, it is a much beloved film. And now my daughter loves it. So there you go. Um I will also say this is a movie that I think is, and seeing it now uh with fresh eyes, this is an incredibly provocative movie that is both a great, fairly fun story. I mean, it's not fine with the wrong word. It's a that's not the right word. Uh let me take it back. It's a funny movie. It's very, it's very sort of uh um enjoyable, it's well done, it's paced beautifully, but there's a lot of deeper stuff going on here about the about the sexual politics of the 1970s, about the uh uh class politics, class issues of the 1970s. There's a lot going on in this film. It is a very rich film, but I want to start off by just talking about what I mentioned earlier. I think this is one of the best acted films, which we've we've talked about, and one of the best active films I think I've ever seen. I'm I'm gonna go out there. I don't care. I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna say that. And I think we need to start this conversation with Al Pacino. Now, I have on this podcast before said that I think Al Pacino's performance in Godfather 2 is one of the best acting performances I've ever seen. This one might be better. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03I think it's a spectacular performance. I think the acting throughout the film of all the players is terrific, and I think we have Al Pacino also to thank for that, because as I understand it, kind of he and Lumet worked in coordination and they drew players from the kind of new the hip New York theater community, and that's how Cazal got the role, even though he wasn't seen as ideal for the type of character they were looking for. But, you know, to get to your original question, I mean Pacino, I think it's a remarkable performance. It's also a gutsy performance, which is what we we value so much on the podcast. I have I favorite Al Pacino uh role is so hard to do because I have I have two idiosyncratic favorites. I think his portrayal of Roy Cohn in Angels of America, the Mike Nichols kind of miniseries, is is as good a performance as I've ever seen. And I I also like him in in the American version of Insomnia as the weary detective. All the cool kids think the Scandinavian version of Insomnia is ten times better than the American version, but I think his final soliloquy in the hotel room to the clerk uh about what he did. Uh I I sometimes show that in class to give an e as an example uh of fine acting. But I digress. His performance uh in this movie soars. And again, it is both brilliant, but it is also gutsy. And one of the many great things he does here is when he's taking on a risky role, he never ever hints or winks at the audience in a way that reassures you that he knows he's acting. And again, that's a lot of actors wouldn't have touched this role.
SPEAKER_02Uh again, everything you said. I want to, by the way, just give a shout out to Insomnia. You know, it's funny you brought that movie up because I was thinking about late-era Pacino that I like, and there's not a lot that I like, but that's a movie that when I first saw it, I was I didn't love it. I watched it again a couple of years ago, and I was really blown away by how good his performance is in that film. Uh it's a Christopher Nolan film, I'm a huge Christopher Nolan fan. It's a it's a really good movie. But I think we would agree the high point of Pacino's career, and the high point of really, I mean, uh maybe there's no other actor with a high point as high as what Pacino had in the in the early 70s, first with with Godfather, then Godfather 2, and then with this movie. Um to me, what is extraordinary about this film, uh well, you said I agree with, but the emotional vulnerability that he puts out there. Uh the the uh the cra the there's a craziness, a crazedness to his character that is so uh palpable. And you begin to be rooting for him. I mean, he is he is I mean, is he even the anti-hero? He's kind of almost a heroic figure when he was robbing a bank. Um there's so much of his performance I find incredible, and I wanted to mention one thing we'll and this gets a little bit ahead of ourselves, but I just think it's worth bringing up now. There's two scenes near the end of the film uh where he back to back he calls his his wife, his his how do I put this, his uh his female wife, right? And before that he calls uh his uh wife uh Leon. Leon Leon, who we had married uh and who he had robbed the bank to get a sex change operation for. And he does these on the phone. He talks to Leon and he talks to um what's his wife's name again? Um uh the wife wife. I have I don't remember. I can't remember. But those scenes are unbelievably intense scenes, right? Where you can see an actor, we're talking about this with with with a little bit with um who's afraid of Junior Wolf, you can see an actor just leaving it all on the screen. He filmed those two scenes back to back. Back to back, filmed them. And in fact, Lumet set up two cameras next to each other because they only had like they were like it's like 16 or 19 minutes, I think it was, so they didn't have enough the camera didn't have enough film to do them to do it all total. So they did one camera, then they had the hood on the other camera, took the hood off, and did the scene from the other camera filming it. I mean, it is an extraordinary moment, and I I think his performance in this film is so captivating. It's it's just one of those performances. That just grabs you and I think is I don't know. Again, like I said, for me, what I think of great acting for is I think of this role.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And again, that's that's all we're asking for. That they just leave it all on the gym floor.
SPEAKER_02You know? That's exactly it. I I that's the expression I use uh because I was watching basketball earlier. But like they they he really does leave everything out there. And there's little moments in this film. Uh you know, there's a moment when he reali when he after after they've been caught and they realize the cops are outside, you know, waiting for them and trying to figure out what to do, and he sort of walks through the through this section of the bank trying to sort of figure out what his next play is going to be, and he throws this chair on the ground. I think it had to have been an ad-lib moment that he did, and he sort of picks it up. But you see this like you can s he you feel like he is sunny and he is thinking through what his options are. And it is just, I again, I I think the way he puts himself into this performance, there's there's few acting performances I've ever seen like this. It reminded me a lot of Elizabeth Taylor in in in Virgin Virginia Wolf. It was a very similar kind of performance to me.
SPEAKER_03And also, you don't feel like you're watching an actor act. You don't, you know. You don't. But nevertheless, in retrospect, when you read about it or when you see it and you realize the emotional energy that went into it. Uh for me that's very meaningful.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus, Jr. I think also, by the way, to play a bisexual man in 1975 is a pretty gutsy choice, as you said.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Very gutsy choice. Most people today, I don't think, properly reckon with just how risky taking on a role like that would be for an actor in 1975. I mean, it's l is literally, you know, 50 years ago. And back then, this was this could have been a career-killing choice for for for many performers. Right. Enough about Alpha, enough about the acting.
SPEAKER_02We'll get more into that. Let's just talk about how this film begins. And I I think the opening of this film, I said earlier this is the quintessential New York film. And the opening of it really does capture New York in the 70s. I know you love this scene, so I'm going to like turn this over to you to talk about this opening montage.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, it's just a three-minute montage to Ellen John's Amarinho, and it's really, really shots of the city for several minutes. And it answers your the question you raised, which is you know, for a movie that takes place in a bank, it's somehow a profoundly and obviously New York movie. And Lumet is saying, yes, this is the New York movie. Look, we're going to spend the first three minutes establishing that it is uh a hot, you know, the dog days of summer, uh uh a hot summer day in New York City, and this is New York. And they he goes all over the city uh with the camera, taking in all kinds of sights. And of course, for people like us, it just releases endorphins in your brain. Uh it's a you know, you know, it's it doesn't, it's not hitting landmarks. It's not showing you famous buildings. Exactly. It's it's showing you the lives of New Yorkers of every walk of life. And then it kind of settles in on the street in Brooklyn where the bank is. So it's establishing it.
SPEAKER_02And I think some of those montages can be kind of cheesy at times, but this one is not. This one is really effective. And I think it does, as you said, I think it kind of this is a movie in a lot of ways about working class New Yorkers. It's about New Yorkers who are struggling to get by. I and I say that from the the people robbing the bank, people working in the bank, to the cops who are outside. Yes. You know, Charles Derning's character. He these are guys, these are people who are basically work work for paycheck. And um they they are not living the high life. Even the bank manager, right? Mulvaney says repeatedly, I don't get paid enough money to be a hero. Yeah, right? I mean, yeah, nobody in this this is this is how working class people like incomplete with other working class people. That's a big part of this movie, I think. Um it is based on a true story about a bank robber named John Voidovich uh and his two accomplices, and he uh really was uh trying to uh rob this bank to get money to pay for a sex change operation for uh this man that he had um married. It was in Gravesend, Brooklyn. But they had actually tried to rob two earlier banks and failed. One of them uh they didn't rob it because one of the accomplices noticed a woman coming out of the bank who was friends with his mother. And they decided that was not a good idea to rob that bank, and so they went to this one. Right. To be clear, that's the real life story, not the movie. That's the real life story, yeah. Thank you. Uh they go in the bank, and in some ways, the way this movie starts out, it's almost like a comedy, right? There is a lot of humor in this movie, and the opening scenes are incredibly funny, actually. Just how how poorly this bank robbery goes. They get inside the bank, his partner Sal, played by John Casal, pulls a machine gun on the bank manager Mulvaney, and which is great, by the way. It's a very season's like he pulls a gun and he's on the phone. He's like, uh, yeah, I'm gonna have to call you back. Yeah, it's uh that's also very a very New York moment. Absolutely. Absolutely. He's like, Oh, I got a machine gun in my face. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta give you a call a little later today. Uh and then Sonny, you know, pulls out his rifle. But but as this is happening, their third guy, you know what? It's he's not feeling it. He wants to leave. And he sort of asks if he can leave, and and Sonny's like, it's already started, already pulled the gun. You can't just leave. And then they he pulls his gun, and of course, immediately this guy is like, I want to get the hell out of here. And he lets him out. And it's a hilarious scene, actually. I mean, he sort of says, like, I need to go, don't take the car. He's like, How am I going to get home? I'll take the subway. I mean, you know, it's it's just a great moment. Like it's again, you feel like these are like real people, like real New Yorkers, right? Yes. And this whole bank robbery just goes downhill from there. Uh, turns out the money they thought was there was not had been picked up earlier. So it's like$1,100 in the bank. Uh Sonny decides to burn the register, which sets a fire, which tracks the insurance salesman from across the street, which delays things, and the phone keeps ringing. Uh bank manager gets a call, and then one of the tellers gets a call from her husband, finding out if she's going to be home. And then the most important phone call comes from the cops who are across the street who have the bank surrounded. Uh I I I live I love this scene, and it it it takes also what is a scary moment, a bank robbery, and turns it into sort of a moment of levity. But also really gives you an insight into these characters.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Yes, and it's it's kind of interesting the way you said that, because if you compare it to a movie we've talked about, Eddie Coyle, and some of those extremely intense bank robberies. The bank robbery is a bank robbery and the danger is there and it's real and there are guns, but you don't have that same kind of Eddie Coyle, I think, terror of the of the bank robbery as it as it's unfolding.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Yeah, you don't feel the danger here because these guys seem like they have no idea what they're doing. Yeah. Um and once the the cops come, that's when the drama of the film begins. And you see Sonny trying to figure out how is he gonna get his way out of this situation. And that really is a big middle part of this movie, is him trying to sort of doesn't want to go to jail. He he realizes that Sal, who by the way in real life was an 18-year-old kid. Right. In the movie, John Cazal is is much older, but and and then first they don't want to cast him, uh, but they decide he really did fit the characters so beautifully. But he tells to him that he's willing to kill everyone in the bank because he doesn't want to go back to jail. And I think Sonny, who just did this on a lark, realizes that he's in cahoots with a sociopath and he's pretty concerned about it.
SPEAKER_03But I think that's that's a really big deal because I think I mean we're gonna talk a lot about key elements of this movie and what this movie is about. And what I'm about to say is not what this movie is about, but for me, there's this fascinating parallel between the Pacino character, between Sonny, who we've talked a little bit about, and the Charles Derning character, the New York cop, but we haven't yet introduced. Both of them are sort of negotiating tight ropes of the situation. Pacino's dealing with the cops, but he also has to keep Sal in line. Sal has uh reveals himself as someone who will who you you want to kill all the hostages? Okay, just let me know because I'm prepared to do it. And Derning has superiors looking over his shoulder and trigger-happy cops looking at him, and he is really doing the best he can to defuse the situation. And in that sense, those two characters have a fascinating parallel of how they're trying to navigate these dual pressures without letting the situation get out of control. I thought that was very attractive. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02That's a really great point because I think one I hadn't thought about that parallelism between Derning's character and Pacino's character. But Pacino's character is, I mean, you almost you kind of feel sorry for him after a while because he is trying to manage all of these these balls he is juggling in the air, right? He's trying to deal with the hostages, he's trying to deal with Sal, he's trying to deal with Derning, who's who exactly the same as is Moretti. Like there's so much, and then later he has to deal with Leon, he has to deal with his wife, he has to deal with his mother. I mean, there's so much pressure on him, and you can feel that. I mean, that's I think what makes the performance so powerful is that you you absolutely feel like Pacino is really going through this. I want to give a shout-out, though, to Charles Derning. Yes. I'm a big fan of Charles Derning. I think he's a great character actor. And I think I mentioned this on the podcast before, that he is also a war hero. He he landed on D-Day, I think D-Day plus one or two. Um when he died, I I read this picture of him. I was sort of blown away by it. He killed, he tells a story about killing a German soldier with his bare hands and then holding him in his arms and weeping at what he had done. Uh really had an extraordinarily sort of traumatic experience in World War II, came home, became an actor. Um, I think he is so frigging good in this movie. He is. There is something about his performance that I find so captivating because again, he captures that feeling of somebody trying to manage the situation too, trying to manage Pacino while also dealing with the FBI who wants to come in and take control of what's going on.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I mean, not only is the performance outstanding, but, and I've really wrestled with this, I like the character. Absolutely. A hundred percent. But he's the cop who's, you know, he's supposed to be our titular enemy, you know, in that he's the cop who's trying to restore justice here. But it's not but it's a great performance, but I also I really feel his humanity and what he's trying to accomplish there. And he's juggling, you know, a lot of pressures. And again, the looming FBI man, James Broderick, he's the real heavy in the picture. And and they have a a few exchanges amongst themselves where Derning says, Do you always have to be looking over my shoulder? And I think Broderick says, Yes, I do.
SPEAKER_02So that happens early in the film. And I remember thinking to myself, that that was sort of an almost an odd moment. But you but I think to your point, that's a great insight. There really is a parallel between him, his what he's experiencing, what Chino's experiencing. And you feel with Derning how frazzled he is. When he's talking to Sonny outside the bank, you can tell how on edge this is for him and how he's trying to control the situation that he can't really control, and that he knows that any minute could be taken away from him. And I want to just say two things about this also. As good as he is at being frazzled, as good as he is at being the guy forced to negotiate with Sonny, there's a moment later in the film with Leon, and we'll talk about Leon's character. This is um this is Pacino's uh uh gay partner, yes, exactly, who we married. And he he sort of he brings the he gets he's brought to the um to the bank across there across the street, a barber shop, that's where the sort of the their headquarters are, and he talks to him, and he just has such empathy for this character. Right and such such um calmness with him that it's it's really striking because it's in such a contrast to the character Journey plays throughout the r the the rest of the movie.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean it's the he sh displays some real humanity there, and again, the progressivity of this movie in 1975, because Leon was uh committed I think to Bellevue and I think against his will. And that is just something that could happen to you uh uh for a man in his position in 1972, as it were in New York.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh yeah, let's talk about this. But I think this is like the thing about this film, I don't think I even realized at the time like how when I first saw it as a kid, like how just progressive this movie was, but also how um risque it was in a way. I mean, this was the the main character in this film is a is a is a bisexual man who marries another man. And um this is a you would expect for a lot of movies made in the 70s that this would be treated like a caricature. Right. Uh a cruel caricature. Yes. But but it's not. The they the basic humanity of both Sonny and Leon is on full display in this movie. And I think it's one of the things about it that makes it so striking that in 1975 a movie like this could actually be made.
SPEAKER_03And and and that I think is what attracted the m Lumet to the material. He writes in his lovely little book, Making Movies, he says. Such a great book, by the way. Yeah, that most most films can be reduced to a core theme. And some listeners won't like the way he uses the word freaks here, but he was well-intentioned when he said the theme of Dog Day Afternoon is we are the freaks, right? That there is no difference between what is pointed out to in society as as the so-called freaks and and what we are, which is supposedly regular people. And so the the humanization of the experience of radically other people was what I think Lumet found very important in this movie, much more so than a bank robbery.
SPEAKER_02It's also, by the way, it kind of comes out of left field. You don't expect this. I mean, there's no indication in the first, I'd say, what, 45 minutes hour of the movie? Right. That this that this is what's ha this is what this is about.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's sort of that's a trick, man. That's a you know, I think that's brilliant, right? He Lumet gives you Al Pacino and you are with him and you are suffering with him, and you're his problems are your problems. And then he says 45 minutes in, maybe even an hour, when he says, Oh, by the way, this is a bisexual man who's robbed this bank to you know pay for a sex change operation for his uh his his partner.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's it's even trickier than that because he says to him at one point, so what happens again is like so uh Derning calls into the bank, says, We have you surrounded. Pacino comes out, he sees the situation around him. We'll get to that in a second. And so throughout the movie, he's coming out of the bank talking to Derning on the sidewalk. And at some point, the second or third time he comes out, he says, I want you to bring my wife here. And then the n I think the next scene is showing his his his female wife. Yeah. Cuts straight to that. So you think that oh, that's who's gonna be brought to the bank. But it's not. Yes, it's not, it's Leon. Very clever. Very clever. And also, I don't think I even recognize this until later that that's that's what happens in the film. Like they they do this little bait and switch thing. But it's interesting because I think to your point, like it they the the Lumet humanizes Pacino. You like him. You you so you find you're sort of rooting for him a little bit. And then, you know, I think you know, today it wouldn't be controversial, but 1975 would be controversial, right? I mean, in fact, it that there's actually a TV broadcast where they talk about a confirmed homosexual. Yes, right? Like this is you know, because it's a stigma, obviously. And uh and it this is the thing, you don't stigmatize him because you actually kind of like his character.
SPEAKER_03And you risk enormously losing the audience. In the original draft of Bonnie and Clyde, um, Clyde was bisexual. And they dropped that. And and Arthur Penn said, look, I want I want these people rooting for bank robbers, you know. I can only ask for so much. So they had to write out the bisexuality and just stick with the outlaw heroes part. And so you know, here I think the trick was to to let the audience kind of fall in love with Sonny a bit before challenging the audience with this fact about him.
SPEAKER_02No, I may be saying something that's inaccurate here, so since you're more of the 70s movie history expert than I am, I feel like uh 70s movies there's a a lot of these themes really push the envelope uh and and and develop id and and focus on ideas and cultural elements that just were not part of movie making previously. Yes. But I think one area where that the envelope is not pushed as far is on the LGBT community. I think that's absolutely right. Yeah, I don't think that you have as many films that sh are humanizing gay characters. Right.
SPEAKER_03I I think that's right. I think you could you know maybe there were a couple of films that were kind of quote-unquote gay films, you know, The Boys and the Band, for example, which is where the title The Boys and the Band comes from. And you could even have, you know, the sly commentary on a gay friend or something, but it would still be a curiosity or an exotica or a difference.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I think we talked about this in in Marathon Man, right? Roysche in the book, Roy Scheider's character uh is gay. Uh Janaway is is his lover, and it's hinted at in the movie, but it's not directly referenced in the movie. Uh but here it's right, it's right in your face. There's no there's no hiding from the fact these characters are gay. And I think it is and and you do see, by the way, in the news coverage of it, that they are treated as abnormal, right? That's how they're treated. I mean, that's I guess how things were in the 70s. But I think this movie is so interesting in the sense that like it just pushes that envelope in a way that I don't think few movies were doing at the time.
SPEAKER_03Although I do want to give a shout out to our friend John Schlesinger. He made Midnight Cowboy, and it was vital for the film that John Boyden, Razzo, Rizzo, or John Boyden does happen not be lovers as characters in that movie, which I actually think was appropriate. But some people thought that Schlesinger lacked the courage of his convictions in making that film. But then he went on and made Sunday, Bloody Sunday, and he said, Hey, you know, you you think I lack the courage of my convictions? I can make any movie I want. And here's a, you know, here's a movie with i about a gay man, and it w it's a wonderful movie, which we'll probably get around to talking about at some point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd like to do that movie at some point. Um I think the other thing about Sonny's character that we should talk about a little bit is the and I don't th and I've watched this movie like, I don't know, probably eight, ten times at least. And I'm just struck by in this this watching uh uh how much he gets off on the power that he has in this brief moment by being a bank robber, right? The when he comes out of the bank and he yells to the police to put their guns away. Right. And then you have the famous that's been imitated, I don't know how many times, Attica, Attica, Attica scene. Which which, by the way, was from what I understand completely ad lib. And that's unusual for Lumet. I I should bring about this uh before we we recorded today, that that Lumet liked to rehearse his films at great length and didn't really like his characters to ad lib, but something like a th uh a half or more than half his movie is ad-libbed. Um including especially Wyoming. Oh my god, we'll get to that in a second. That's one of my favorite lines in the movie. Uh so but you see this like his character, he he when he's coming out of you see the way he holds himself when when when when Pacino comes out of the bank is different. You see a confidence with him that's that I I it's palpable. I one of my favorite lines in this entire movie. I mean, a line I've repeated. I I just love this line. When he's talking to Derney, and Derney's like, you know, you it it's you're gonna get all he's like, this all you have is robbery, you know? He's like, and he's like, no, it's like armed robbery. He's like, you know, okay, you give me that, you know, you'll maybe you'll get out in five years. And she looks at him and he goes, because kiss me. Yeah. Kiss me. He's like, I like to get kissed when I'm getting fucked. Yeah. And I it's such a great line. It's also like a line of somebody who's like, who's knows what's going on and has the confidence enough to tell this this cop to go to go fuck himself, basically. And you see throughout the movie, you see throughout the movie, he has that kind of confidence that to really just kind of control the situation outside of the bank. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yes.
SPEAKER_03But once again, you put two giant things on the table all at once. You know, one is the kind of the Pacino falling in love a bit with what quickly becomes his celebrity status for the short period of time.
SPEAKER_02And the other is Well, don't say Pacino, say Sonny because actually that's that is actually a fair criticism of Pacino, but later it is critical.
SPEAKER_03So I want to be clear with the Trevor Burrus, I was referring there to Sonny entirely. I I will send a note of apology to Mr. Pacino as soon as we're done talking. And the other is you know, the reference to Attica, which is so charged in the moment, also well reflects the fact that there are way too many cops at this bank. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Way too many. Trevor Burrus, Jr. The police presence is so overwhelming and it is designed to make you recoil from what even in 75 was, you know, now we have become a little uh accustomed, I won't say inured, but definitely accustomed to the militarization of the police. But the police presence outside this bank robbery is, you know, overkill times 10. And and the the bloodlust of the average anonymous cop in that crowd of cops is is one of the many sub-themes of the movie.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, it absolutely. And but I think again, like there's something about the way he just gets off of this. And I read somewhere that one of Pacino's favorite scenes in the movie is when they bring pizza into the bank, and this pizza delivery guy comes and Pacino puts money in his pocket, and the guy after Pacino walks in with the with the pizza, the pizza delivery guy jumps in and goes, I'm a star. And and it's like that's the sort of celebrity-ness of this moment, not just for Pacino, but for this bit player who just happens to be delivering pizza to the bank.
SPEAKER_03Well, there's a lot going on in this movie, but you know, we talked about this offline. The next movie Lumet makes is Network, which is all about the consequences of the media. And the role of the media in this movie, I think, is significant, and all of the participants, not the cops, but Sonny, uh, the pizza delivery guy, and some of the hostages in the bank do become somewhat enchanted with their minor celebrity status, or what I guess Andy Roh would have described as their 15 minutes of fame. And you have the head teller who has a chance to be released and voluntarily goes back inside the bank. She does so, she says, for noble reasons to kind of be with her girls. She's the head teller and they bear some responsibility for them. And you could also get into a conversation about Stockholm syndrome and identifying with the captors, but there's also a part of her that is enjoying her place in the sun at this particular moment. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02What's the first thing she says when she gets back in the bank? After she well, they release the security guard and they ask, is he okay? She's okay, he's okay. And then she says, I was on TV. Exactly. I was on TV. Yeah. Trevor Burrus, Jr. She's even doing an interview with with uh with a uh newsman while Pacino was talking to Moretti, to Terrell's Derning. And uh if you go back and watch the movie again, it's so fascinating. Like the the the Moretti does an interview with the with the with the with the reporters early on, says I'll tell you when I know something, you see a scene early on where the the the the vantage point, you see it from the vantage point of Sonny, and you see derning and you see behind him cameraman holding his giant cameras, right? You see the helicopters with the cameras on them. I mean, you're absolutely right. The media is a huge part of it. And of course, also the media literally a reporter literally calls into the bank to interview Sonny while the robbery is going on. And my the the last thing of it to mountain is that like at one point, you know, they they they say there's two homosexuals robbing this bank, and John Cazal who plays Sal is is offended by this and says, you know, tell them it's only one homosexual. And you know, Gino's like, well, I they can say whatever the we can see whatever they want to say. And you made a point that Matt did this film before he did Network, which of course deals, we've talked about it before, deals with so many of these themes of media and celebrity. I mean, I think there's a lot of antecedents in this film to that film.
SPEAKER_03Uh definitely. And it is, and in this film, it is the tendency of people to turn toward a camera. Uh I mean, maybe I'm a little bit of a, you know, professor type, but I've I've always been a little curious about why when people see a camera they have this desperate need to turn toward it and often say woo. But but this is part of part of this movie is about the wanting to be on TV, just like, as you said, the the head teller uh expresses, you know, hey, I was on TV. You know, this is an accomplishment.
SPEAKER_02By the way, if I want to mention and give a shout-out, that's Penelope Allen. She's wonderful in this movie. I mean, everybody's right, but she's a wonderful character. But I agree with you. I don't understand this desire to be on television. I have no desire to be on television. Whenever I see a camera, I'm really not interested. But people do take it very seriously. And there's a wonderful scene, you know, when when Sonny sees himself on TV and he's like he's really transfixed by the idea. And I do think that is a little bit of when his character shifts. When you see him getting off on the celebrity of it. I look, there's two things going on. He likes to be the celebrity. He also likes, I think, the power that he comes with. Because I think a lot of this film is about his feelings of powerlessness, his feelings of being overwhelmed, of being unable to control the world around him. And for this brief moment, he is able to control the world around him.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell That's I think that's an excellent point because what motivates him to do the robbery in the first place is this sense of powerlessness and the inability to otherwise provide the funds for this operation. And that that is, you know, so sincerely and lovingly sought.
SPEAKER_02Look, he's playing for the cameras, he's playing for the crowds. By the way, I I've read this in where that Lumet went to great lengths of directing the extras.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02The extras who are outside the bank. This was really, by the way, when the the this robbery happened, there are people in the street and you know, basically cheering this on. It's also, I think, part of the New York-ness of this movie, right? You've got the gay rights groups who are showing up to show support for him. You've got the one of the tellers, their the boyfriend who comes in and tries to like knock him over, or does knock him over, actually. Like the crowds are a big part movie. And like it's like a it's like a carnival, it's like a sideshow. And that again plays, I think, to your point about this being like a media event as much as it is like a a police event. And which is why I think when the end comes, it's so shocking because up to that point this played more as like uh almost like a a precursor to media fixations that we've come used to in this in our day and age.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Like I think it it feels more like that than an actual place where people could get hurt, which of course is what ends up happening. Um we should talk a little bit about John Cazal, who we plays Sal in this movie. I think this is well known by most people who followed 70s movies, but his resume, he did he made five movies in his lifetime. The Godfather Conversation, which we talked about, uh Godfather Part Two, Dar Daphne, obviously this film, and The Deer Hunter. Um, all five of those films were nominated for Best Picture. Uh that is an extraordinary uh track record, I'd say. And not all because of John Cazal, though. I mean he plays the supporting actor in each of these five movies. Um but I think, and I I look, I love him as Fredo and Godfather Godfrey, I think this is his best performance. And I think he brings the sort of like he's the he is what you might call the um the conflict in the movie, right? Because he is the loose canon of this film. And throughout the movie, you are concerned that he is going to do something rash. And at various points, you know, uh uh Sal, I mean Sonny says about Sal, he's a killer, right? He's a you know, I bark, he bites, right? I mean, he is he there is something about him that is fearsome and yet at the same time also very innocent.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and Kazal's performance is wonderful. I I do want to give a call attention to a 2009 documentary called I Knew It Was You, Rediscovering John Casal. Because he was something of a legendary figure in the in the kind of New York acting community. He was also the kind of the not kind of, he was the paramour of Meryl Streep. They were very close, and she was with him right to the very end. You know, he died tragically young of cancer. And so he's one of these almost mythical kind of 70s figures in the community. And and, you know, he only gave us five film performances, but they were all such wonderful performances.
SPEAKER_02And if I remember correctly, he died of um of lung cancer. Yeah. And the the this is a a weird sort of element of this film. There's a scene, wonderful scene between him and Penelly Allen, in which she decides she wants to have a cigarette. Right. And, you know, he says it goes in this whole thing about how you shouldn't smoke your body as a temple. Yeah. And she was like, What are you kidding me? You're robbing a bank, okay? And she says, I'll bl if I get cancer, I'll blame you. And he says, No, you'll you'll you'll get cancer because you were weak. And you know, what's tragic is that that's how he ends up dying of of lung cancer. Yes. Uh I I mean it's it's a it's a really weird coincidence that this is what this conversation happens in this film and this is end up ends up the way he ends up dying. I have seen a documentary that you mentioned. Um and like you said, I mean, I think he is he is renowned, legendary in the in the New York acting community. And his performance, there's but can we talk a little bit about your favorite lines that he's so early on in the film, right? So Sonia's trying to figure out a way to get out of this situation, and he decides we'll take host take them as hostages and we'll try to get to the airport, get a plane, leave the country. And he asks us all, where do you want to go? And what does he say? Wyoming.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which was an ad lib. And I don't know if Pacino broke up at the time, but his response is, well, Wyoming's not really a country, Sal. It's not a country, Sal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I'll take care of it, Sal. Don't worry about it. And and actually, what I love about that moment is that's when you really feel for Pacino. The guy he's dealing with doesn't even know that Wyoming is part of the United States. Like he says we have to leave the country. They want to go to Algeria. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which is which is the right move. That's where you go. That's where you would go. That's where you would go. Definitely. No extradition.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly. You don't go to Wyoming because they can extradite you from Wyoming. Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, I it's I think his performance is great. But like I said, I think every performance in this movie is wonderful. And uh, you know, is it we've talked about Lumet on Network, and I think in that movie we talked about how uh the performances are just so extraordinarily good. I mean, I you know I wax poetic at great length about Faye Dunaway's performance in that movie and how good she is. You know, I think a lot about these his his films, I think about the verdict I mentioned earlier with Paul Newman, I think one of his best performances. Lumet is a director who just seems to get great, great performances out of his actors.
SPEAKER_03And he made great films in six different decades, uh, which is quite an accomplishment. And yes, I think he was very much an actor's director, and I think one of the reasons why he's not as revered in the film community is because he did not have a kind of signature visual style. He adapted his style to in a ways that I think he thought fit the movie that he was making. And film nerds, and I am I'm among them, uh, we tend to like directors that have a more identifiable or recognizable star, and and would look down upon Lumet, not I, but they, uh, as more of a workman-like or a journeyman director, even though you look at the track record, you look at those decades of filmmaking, you you you say, well, what were his ten best films? And then you sit back and go, wow, and you look at the variety of them, which is astonishing. I mean, this guy made 12 Maggie Men. This guy made Failsafe, right? This guy, these are very different movies. The Hill, uh, which Woody Allen considers to be one of the great American films ever made, although I don't know if it was made in America, actually. Uh and you know, then all of the seven films that we've talked about, and then his career continues. Now, like uh I I started our our chat today referencing Claude Chabral. Like Chabral, a working director also makes a lot of clunkers. And I think there are some clunkers in in Lumet's uh oeuvre. But nevertheless, this is this is uh uh a meritorious and accomplished career.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, looking at his uh at his phonography, some of his later stuff uh is not as good. Uh stuff from the 80s and 90s. Uh I remember A Stranger Among Us, which is Melanie Griffiths who's undercover in this Hasidic Jewish community, which is she's not really a Jew. Um I think.
SPEAKER_03But let me give a shout out for his last film, Before the Devil Knows You're Dead. Oh, great movie. It's a great movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman, uh it's a wonderful film. Ethan Hawke, Marissa Tomei, Albert Finney. You want to talk about, you know, getting great performances uh in a film. That's a that's a that's an excellent example.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell But to your point about his style, I mean the movie he made before Dark Day Afternoon was Murder in the Orient Express. You've talked about that movie before. I mean, I think it's a fine movie. Yeah. I think stylistically it is very, very different from that movie. Yeah. It's a little static. This movie is a much more naturalistic film. Definitely. Um, it's it ha almost has at times like a documentary feel to it and a look to it.
SPEAKER_03Um again, let's let's Kemper is an important part of that. There's some serious night-for-night shooting in in this movie. There's serious, you know, this is a location film, it's a documentary-style film, and I think Kemper is a really important part of that. But of obviously he's collaborating with his director. So I I think, you know, this we see that here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think again, to the point you made earlier, or um, you know, this he doesn't he has a s he's he feels like a filmmaker who makes films because he's interested in the subject matter. And he has something he wants to say. And he doesn't, and as you said, he's not he's not an auteur. He doesn't have a distinct style of a Kubrick or or I mean something more recent like uh Christopher Nolan. Those people you you know you when you see one of their films, you've known you see one of their films. Right. Which I mean, it's which I do prefer. But nevertheless. I I I I can't say I prefer one way or the other. I think I probably do, but I I I just feel like if you make great films, you make great films. I mean Do we think I mean I'm just gonna go on a limb here. Billy Wilder's films, are they all distinctively similar?
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr. So again, Wilder, who I think is revered in the community that I'm a secret member of, uh I think that is a knock has been a knock on him, right? He does Billy Wilder is a great writer-director. Great director, who does not have an easily identifiable signature style in that maybe that has held him back slightly from the kind of the pantheon. I know Wilder, a great, great director, was irritated at times with with Hitchcock's reputation because Hitchcock did have the signature style that he was associated with. I think Hitchcock's reputation is well earned. So I I don't know if I would be the I don't know if I would pick Hitchcock as the one to be irritated with the physical.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, I think Wilder is is a good example of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, you know, you look at you look at Wilder's um uh filmography, and there's just some Sunset Boulevard, obviously, um double indemnity. Double indemnity. Let's just pause there for a moment. So genuine flex before it. I mean, it's such a good movie. Yeah, what can you say? I don't love the Sun Lake and Hot or the Apartment, but you know, those are those are obviously considered classics. And he made a and witness for the prosecution. The guy made a lot of really good films. But you're right, not a distinctive style. And I think that maybe is what holds back Lumet. But I look at Lumet's films and I think, God, there's so many movies on his filmography that I just revere. And again, like I said earlier, they one of the reasons I think that that that they're so good is because he has he gets such good performances out of his actors. Um and I I I he's an actor's director. Yeah, I think that's absolutely the case. And that's a big deal. Because most of the time you're washing the actors. That's right. I mean, like it's funny because I love I love Kubrick, he's probably my favorite director. He is the exact opposite of an actor's director, right? There's very few distinctive acting performances in any of Kubrick's films. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03Similarly, Hitchcock, who I think is a monumental master of cinema, uh, was I don't think he was an actor's director at all. I don't think he got great performances from great actors. I think he used the actors for means he was trying to achieve and did so extremely effectively. But I don't look at it. Exactly. Except for Anthony Perkins in Psycho, which is an astonishingly brilliant performance. I don't think of Hitchcock films and think, wow, that actor's role there, that that was just unbelievably great work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I tend to uh I I think that's right. I mean I think I think about Hitchcock, I can't I can't think of a single film with an action performance that just really wows me.
SPEAKER_03Yes, right. And we digress, but he he had a theory of negative acting. He preferred to shoot actors starting with an emotional state and then having that emotional state drain from their face. And so in that sense, you're it's it's that minimalism that he was looking for. And so he wasn't looking for these signature moments of great acting from his performers.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Right. And you didn't really get them. I think that's right. Okay, so let's say there's two more things I think we want to talk about that are like we which again, let's talk about the acting performances. Yes, yes. We've talked about John Casal, we've talked about Al Pacino, we've talked about Charles Derning, we've talked about Chris Surrandit. I think we do need to say a few words, who was, by the way, was nominated for an uh best born actor for this performance. He plays Leon. And he's he's in this movie for a very maybe 10 or 15 minutes, I think. He has maybe two or three scenes. Yeah. Um I love his performance for Ver first of all, it's just really well done. But what I love most about it was that this again, to go back to what I said earlier. This is a performance. He plays um uh a gay man who is intending to have a sex change operation.
SPEAKER_03Right. Okay. And not only a gay man, but a kind of a swishy gay man. I mean, this is even more daring than Pacino. A hundred percent. Right?
SPEAKER_02That's actually a really good point, because Pacino, you don't you there's not a lot to suspect that he is gay, right? He does not he does not uh appear to be gay. That that's not that sounds really bad. I wouldn't have said that. But no, but it's but it is accurate. Yeah, I think it is. I mean, well, I let me put it different ways.
SPEAKER_03That's what I wanted to say. When you said go play a gay guy on my movie, he would not be playing a gay manager. Thank you. Thank you for bailing me out.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly what I was trying to get at and failing miserably. This is right, there's nothing stereotypically gay about Pacino's character. There is about Serena's character. Absolutely. He doesn't eat the scenery, he doesn't go over the top. It's very restrained performance. I I actually this is gonna sound like maybe an odd thing to say. The one thing I love the most about what he does, the way he holds his his robe up to his up to his neck, right? There's like that something about that that that really kind of gives off this idea of him being a little bit effeminate. And that to me is like the most obvious thing that he does. Um and I, you know, as I said, he has two great scenes in the movie. One is when he's being interrogated by um by Derning in the barber shop, and he sort of explains what is you know, why uh Pacino is doing this, why he's running Rob the Bank, and then seeing with the phone call that he has to Pacino. And I again part of why this these two scenes work is how well of a how good of a rapport that I think he has with both Derning and Pacino in those performances.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean they the phone call, we've already touched on it, but it we should dwell on the the phone call between them, which is one of the what I think is the are the two set pieces dramatically of the film. And it's a it's a wonderful conversation between them. You know, Sonny's signature line in the movie, which we've all used endlessly forever since then, is I'm dying here. I'm dying here. I'm dying here. And Leon's reaction is you always say that, you know, honestly. Right. Which, you know, I thought was very uh uh i it it came across as very realistic in their coupled them. Right.
SPEAKER_02I mean you see sort of the dynamic between them. You actually kind of can believe that they were lovers, right? Because they there is sort of this push and pull of there does seem to be some genuine affection, but there's also some I don't know, animosity. Like there are words, there's some uh uh tension between them as well.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell Well, there is the suggestion at least that Sonny I I don't want to casually toss around the world a word abusive, but that that he could be extremely difficult and domineering in their relationship, and that Leon has had his fill of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that does seem to be the case. Uh and I mean you look, the funny thing about this movie is that Pacino is a he is uh is almost he's an outlaw figure, and and I think you're rooting for him. But the way uh characters talk about him, he's not a really nice person. Right. Right. He pulled a gun on Leon, he threatened to kill him, he uh did something I forget what he did. I think he made her get on a kiddie ride at Coney Island or something. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03She told a bad story about him, too.
SPEAKER_02Everybody has a bad story about Sonny. There is a bad story about Sonny, like he's not a great guy. Yeah. And uh I think that that you know, the but you you do feel this dynamic between the two of them that they again, it's like I said, they could be in this relationship. And again, I guess I said earlier about the scene with with Derning, where Derning is so compassionate and empathetic. I love the fact how he goes from this like wild man on the street pulling his shirt up and trying to like trying to deal with with Sonny to like being so calm and collected and really trying to acknowledge the humanity of this person in front of him, even though clearly he thinks you know there's something wrong with him. Clearly.
SPEAKER_03I mean all the cops do. Trevor Burrus, Jr. You know, this is a major sidebar here, but I have to acknowledge that even though I think Derning's performance is spectacular, and even though Derning's character is one of my favorite characters in the movie, he's not the world's most effective cop. The FBI man even says to him, why didn't you why did you wait until they left the bank because of the fucking bank?
SPEAKER_01You know, you would have avoided this whole situation. He said, Yeah, that maybe in retrospect.
SPEAKER_03I fucked that up. And then he gets kind of you know superseded in authority by James Broderick, who who who sees his control of the situation in his own hands. And and actually Broderick, who I don't who we're not supposed to like and I don't like, uh does a decent job of managing what follows.
SPEAKER_02I think I said to you at one point, I thought this film was like close to being a perfect film. I I kind of back away a little bit from that, and I can get into some of the reasons why, but you you had a big issue with what the the the the gap between what you call the power shutoff and the tr the power transfer from the cops to the FBI. Can you talk a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell Yeah. I mean I'm confused by this, and I think it might have just been to tighten the film. And again, uh I hope we do have a chance to praise the pacing of D.D. Allen, who knows how to move things along rapidly, but also knows how to slow things down dramatically. Her work is astonishing here. But there's this weird gap in the movie. We're having a little bank robbery hostage situation, blah, blah, blah, having a a good time. It's daytime. And then there's a rather sharp cut, and it's darker out, so hours have passed, and the power has been cut off because we must intuit that James Broderick has seized control uh the FBI man that he's playing, has seized control of the situation and has determined that they will cut off the power to the bank, which I don't think was a wise move, but it made it very hot there. And then he but he does show some bravery uh entering the bank to check out the situation, and he does say the the most chilling line in the film, because he quickly assesses that Sal is the danger, and he says to Sonny, You sit tight and we will attend to Sal. It's a it's a terrifying moment.
SPEAKER_02So I am so fascinated by that that line because do you why is he saying that? Is he saying that to throw Sonny off, or is he just saying to him, We know Sal is a loose canon, or or we suspect that he's the reason why you haven't given up, and so we're gonna deal with this and we're gonna make sure that you come out of this okay?
SPEAKER_03I interpreted it as B. Now I know that the real bank robber, uh who you identified earlier, but whose name I will not try and pronounce, was very, very bitter about the suggestion that he um gave up Sal in that way. But I thought the broader character, the FBI man, who again I actively dislike in this movie, he comes into the bank, really cuts a move, he assessed the situation, and I think he determined that the danger was Sal, and that the way to get out of this was to get them in the car, and they will find a way to let's use the police word, neutralize Sal. Neutralize Sal. And that and and Sonny will acquiesce in in that resolution. Yeah, I think that's what happened.
SPEAKER_02Basically what happens. I mean, I the I think the film interestingly takes a really dark turn. Yeah. When you mentioned that lights go out. Literally, yeah. Well, okay, there you go. But when the lights go out, right, he you do see the FBI agent come over and say, like, now I'm in charge. Now we're not giving you anything else anymore. So I don't I do think it's pretty clear that like when the power turns off, metaphor alert, there's darkness in the bank, and that gives you like a sense of the darkness that is coming for these characters. I mean, I do think that that is the crucial inflection point, I guess, in the movie, where it goes from being so a little light-hearted almost to being really dark.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr. So I needed a scene between Broderick and Derning in which Broderick seizes control of the authority of the situation. And we don't know. I think it's necessary, though. I don't think it's necessary.
SPEAKER_02I think obviously the filmmakers agreed with you. Right. I think it's implicit. Okay, I have one more question I've always wondered about. So the the the this limousine shows up, and uh Sonny's inspecting it with this guy, he's a black guy, and he's uh there the he drove the van over the limousine over, and uh they're inspecting it together, and uh Sonny wants this guy to drive the limo, not this agent Murphy, um who is the person supposed to do it. And does he he because he's and and then you know has this black guy get in the car, get in the front seat, and then he says, take a walk up. Yeah, and he's because he thinks he's an FBI agent. It turns out he's correct. That was an FBI agent because you figured this out later when you see him standing next to Broderick in like his uh in a suit. Yes, properly attired. Properly attired. Yeah, no, you're not a suit. It's for it's a suit for the 70s. It's a 70s suit, yeah. But my question is like, what was the plan here? Was it like were both these guys FBI agents? And would they think that Sonny was going to choose the black uh guy with the afro to do this? Well, I don't I was so confused by this. I never understood exactly what the point was here.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Ross Powell So it is a little ripple. I think there are two things that are going on. One is it may have actually happened that way. Uh this is a problem with doing something based on actual events. My favorite line about what the difference is between fiction and nonfiction, and and the the answer is fiction has to make sense. Uh but I think it is another illustration that we're supposed to appreciate that Sunny sees through things fairly well. So that we're given this, you know, driver, and maybe he's a plant, maybe he's not a plant, and Sonny has him look at the vehicle and inspect it and then dismisses him uh as a cop, and he's right that he's a cop. And so basically Sonny says, if I'm gonna have a cop drive me, I'd rather just have the real cop drive me, not your fake cop drive me. But I think it's Sonny kind of showing that he knows what's going on.
SPEAKER_02But he chooses this guy, Murphy, who turns out to be the person who ends up, spoiler alert, shooting Sal at the end of the movie. Yes.
SPEAKER_03So I Well, he doesn't. He inspects the the van, but not quite well enough now, does he?
SPEAKER_02Not quite well enough. Yeah, he missed he missed the gun uh by the uh It was a secret compartment. It's not totally his fault, but by the way, the scene where they get into the limo, where they they all c walk out of the bank and and they're all surrounding him, and they a they all pile into the limo is such a beautifully shot uh moment in the film. Absolutely. It's it's you know, it's a it's at night, so you got it's got some really good like sort of shadows there going on, but it's just really well done. You know, the I read somewhere that like when Lumet was making um uh uh Twelve Angry Men, uh huh that he learned a lot about how to actually create sweat for for actors that they looked like they were sweaty. Everyone's movie looks so goddamn sweaty. Yeah. Right? And uh and all apparently this thing this movie was shot. They began filming in September. This was like shot like I guess in October or November, this scene, and it was so cold out that they had to put ice cubes in their mouth to prevent um their uh their breath from from showing up because it was like 40 degrees outside.
SPEAKER_04Did not know that.
SPEAKER_02So it's kind of crazy. Now, before we get into the the end of the movie, let's just talk about your favorite scene in this movie. The re the the writing of Sonny's will. Now, this is this is comes near the end of the film. It always felt to me a little bit out of place. Uh, but tell me why you love the scene so much.
SPEAKER_03I love the scene so much for two reasons. And this is Sonny reciting his will, I think to the the head teller character. Yes, who's taking Penelope Allen? Penelope Allen who's taking it down. And first of all, I think it's beautifully played, and again, for a movie that often moves at a very brisk pace, uh, this is a very slow scene, uh, and and I think it's effective there. But also he has the line that I wrote down somewhere uh and have now misplaced, so hopefully I'm getting it right, where he gets the line where he's leaving something to Leon and he says that i he he loved Leon more than any man has ever loved a man. And if this line plays for the audience, then I think Lumet has achieved what he wanted to achieve in the movie. It's the ultimate humanization of the character. And so I think it's I think it's yeah, I don't want to throw this word around, but I think it's profound. Because even when people were quote unquote tolerant of gay people in the 70s, let's say, I think they thought about they tended to think more about sex than love.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03And so this expression of profound love of the one character for the other. And if the audience is there with the character, then then that's a long trip, I think the audience has taken. And it's uh so I just think it's a beautiful moment.
SPEAKER_02I was always thrown off by the when he says little Timmy and Timmy or something. It always struck me as like such certain like they couldn't come with better names than that. Uh, I just that's something about it just didn't didn't resonate with me. But I take your point. I think the thing that I always not I never bothered by it, I thought it was a wonderful scene. The thing I always thought that was sort of unusual about the scene is it slows the movie down. Yeah. Uh it this is a movie that does not slow down really at all. And I think it is unusual. I I think Lumet was apparently aware of that. And one of the things he I guess it initially took out six or seven minutes from earlier in the film. Oh and but then but then decided to put it back in after they they did the the edit with it. But I think there was a sense that's that this scene kind of is a little out of place almost, because it does feel like it is again, it's at a slower pace and more uh uh measured pace than really what else happened. I mean, the only scene that I think is comparable is the scene with uh with Leon in the bank. That's a sort of a slut slightly slowed scene as well. But there's a lot of revelations in that scene.
SPEAKER_03Aaron Powell But you wanted to open with praising Pacino. Let's just walk through it. You know, could Redford read that line? Could De Niro read that line? Maybe De Niro. Could Nicholson read that line? No. I mean, the I I don't say that as criticism. These guys are my, you know, the the kind of towering actors of the 70s. I don't I don't even picture Elliot Gould. I don't think he'd have been afraid to read that line, but I don't I don't I don't see it. Um but when Pacino reads the line, uh I'm I'm all in.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's I think you're right. And I think it's a it's a really good point about just how, in a lot of ways, just subversive this movie was and how much it was pushing the envelope, because you're absolutely right. Really is giving you something that you just are not getting in other films. Like I said earlier, this is a this is maybe a uh uh um uh a blind spot. It's a weak spot of 70s filmmaking. They don't really tackle sexual politics, at least not uh uh uh gay sexual politics.
SPEAKER_03Trevor Burrus, Jr. But at the same time, it's not an after-school special, man. I mean, this is a thrilling movie with you know lots of great stuff going on. It's not here to deliver a lecture. It just gets to that point where if you believe that line from that character, wow, you've really pulled something off that's quite special in the context of this larger movie.
SPEAKER_02I think that's actually really what makes the movie so great. This movie is so entertaining. This movie is such an enjoyable, well-directed, beautifully acted, you know, really expertly edited film, right? That this it's it's just fun. It's a fun movie, even though it's a terrible story. It is a rough ending. We'll get that in a second. I know that's I know that's a weird thing to say, but up until the last five of the movie, this is kind of a fun movie. Yeah, right? It's there's something enjoyable about it. But there's a lot of deep things going on underneath. And we talked about sexual politics, we talked a lot about the work, the class politics of this, but there's certainly a part of that as well, and that's a huge feature. But you're right, the ending of this movie is rough. And let's just talk about this quickly, right? They get into the bus, to the limo, they go to the airport, the whole idea is they're gonna go to the airport and they're gonna get on a plane, they're gonna fly to Algeria, and this is where the FBI, Murphy, and Broderick, they they foil the plot, and um Sal gets killed. Yes. I I was watching this again uh yesterday, and I I that scene is so difficult because what's interesting about Lumet does, and I gotta I I we've praised him to the nines, but I'm gonna really praise him here. The end of this movie is a very 70s ending, it is bleeding ending. But the decision to just uh focus the camera almost exclusively on Pacino's face, to let his uh agony tell the story, right? Like the whole movie, you see him as this uh frazzled uh uh character, but somebody who's like kind of in charge of the situation. Right right even after he gets off the phone with his with his wife and they're yelling at each other, he looks up and you see this the doctor who's treating one of the one of the uh hostages who's not feeling well, waiting for him. Right. He is he is the person in charge. And you see then in the movie that he has now been uh reduced to somebody who has has a gun to his head and he's being pushed down onto a onto uh uh um the limo and being arrested. And I think that the the the the the shift from that powerful in-charge character to this vulnerability is it's I don't know, it's really it's a powerful moment in the film.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, and movie nerd me also wants to say, oh, the night for night at that airport, it's just beautiful. Wait, say that again, the what? The night for night. You know, that was definitely shot at night. And it's just so dark, it's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, give uh give Kemper a like a shout-out for this. That that scene is beautifully shot and it's fantastic. And but you know, it's just again, it's just it it I love the decision by Lumet to just spend so much time looking at at Pacino's character. And and and of course, Pacino's doing amazing acting in this in this moment. You see the devastation he feels, you see it when when Sal's body is it goes by on the Gurney and and how devastated he is by that. By the way, I want to give a shout-out. We mentioned uh J Uncle June from The Sopranos. Uh-huh. I don't know if you notice this. One of the guys who or rolls him out of the car and arrests him uh plays the New York mob boss in The Sopranos. I can't remember the actor's name. Did not be a good thing. The guy you know the the fuck up son that that um that always like s says things incorrectly or says words incorrectly. Vaguely. His father, uh huh, who get who has a heart attack at the golf course and dies, the head of the New York uh uh mafia family. He he plays one of the cops in the scene that's arresting uh Pacino.
SPEAKER_03Which is not surprising because you know the sopranos also drew heavily on that same kind of community of actors. Right.
SPEAKER_02Um okay, so I mean, what else should we can we say about this movie besides that it's one of the best movies, 1970s?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think we've given it a good ride.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I've watched this movie probably a dozen times. I never get bored of it. It's just it's always a joy. And in part because, you know, Pacino was so good and because the performances are so good. Um it's a great film. And it's a film that is both entertaining and like I think thematically is a very rich movie. And there's a lot, there's a lot going on in this film. Uh I think for next week we are going to perhaps do our foray into non-70s, 70s films. I'm not we're not gonna tell you what that's gonna be because I don't think we decided yet. But um we got some good suggestions uh from a few people reached out to us with some ideas, and we're gonna take those into account and come up with something good. Uh in the meantime, if you are enjoying uh this uh podcast, joining the That 70s to me podcast, please take a moment to subscribe. We had a bunch of we had a ton of new subscribers in the last couple of weeks, which we really appreciate. Um leave a review, tell us what you think, uh, leave some comments, buy us a cup of coffee if you want to also. We really appreciate that. Uh, but above all, tell your friends and family, and uh, you know, come back uh next week when we do another another episode. So, Jonathan, great to see you as always. Thanks so much. And uh until next week, bye-bye.