That 70s Movie Podcast
A look back at the films that defined cinema's greatest era - the 1970s!
That 70s Movie Podcast
Sex, Lies and Videotape
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This week on that '70s Movie Podcast, Jonathan and Michael get brutally honest about the 1989 indie classic, "Sex, Lies and Videotape."
One of the credos of the podcast is that not every '70s film was made in the 1970s, and "Sex, Lies and Videotape," written and directed by Steven Soderbergh, is the kind of small, personal, character-driven film that reflects the ethos of the New Hollywood. Plus, it's a fantastic movie and in a storied filmmaking career, Soderbergh's masterpiece.
We loved all the acting performances, particularly Andie McDowell, who is simply astonishing. We talked at length about the naturalistic dialogue, Soderbergh's subtle yet effective directorial and editing choices that belie his inexperience as a filmmaker, and the deeper themes of intimacy and sexuality at the heart of this movie.
So turn on the camera, pour yourself a glass of iced tea (no lemon), cancel all your meetings, and join us for this week's episode of That '70s Movie Podcast.
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SPEAKER_01Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That 70s Movie Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirster. Jonathan, it is a beautiful day here in New York City. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00Not so bad, actually, and I'm really looking forward to our discussion today, so that may be part of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm in a good mood too. Yesterday was about as perfect a weather day as I can ever remember. It was just gorgeous. Everyone was outside and they were happy. It was beautiful. So today, talking about a movie that we both love. So this should be a really fun episode. But before we get into today's movie, Jonathan, have you seen anything good recently? And I know the answer to this question because I recommended it. But go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I have seen something extremely good, just uproariously entertaining. And what's amazing about it, and I would not have watched it had you not recommended it. Why? A two-hour and 37-minute Michael Mann movie. Where the good guys win. I mean, as if designed by scientists to annoy me. Nevertheless, I was just locked in. What's the point? The insider, the in the insider with Russell Crowe and Albertino, and directed by the often painfully slick to my tastes, Michael Mann. But I was just I was locked in. It rocked. I really, really enjoyed the performances, the characters, like the way they stucker to the man at CBS on a number of fronts. But it was really carried along so effectively, and I didn't find it too slick or over the top. I mean, obviously it was polished and all, but still. And also has I mean, Pacino yells occasionally, but you know my rule of thumb, low Pacino is better than high Pacino, and this was a this was a lower register Pacino more generally, and the character he was portraying was based on a real human. Just I, you know, I went out Googling. What a remarkable figure in history. So that was uh uh the whole the whole thing was a wonderful experience, which I owe entirely to you.
SPEAKER_01Yes, thank you. So let's just let's let's sit back here. So so Michael Mann is a director that I I think both of us are not like hugely fond of. I think that you know I appreciate his skills as a director, but I find I find his movies they leave me emotionally cold. Uh, you know, and and I'm just so like people love Heat, for example, and I always kind of feel like, yeah, there's some really good set pieces in that movie, but I don't love that movie. At least some people do. And some of I think Collateral is actually not a bad movie, but same thing. It's not it's emotionally kind of a little empty for me. But this movie, The Insider, is his tour de force. And and I'm gonna go out in there, I don't care. I'm gonna say this. It is one of the best movies of the 1990s. Uh, I think it is an extraordinarily good movie. And there's two things that I think are just it's funny, you didn't mention, I think, one of the best things about that movie, which is Christopher Plummer's performance as Mike Wallace. Absolutely. Oh my God, he's so good. It's outstanding. It is fantastic. And the thing I think is weird of that movie, too, is like Russell Crowe is not an actor who I'm incredibly fond of either. Um, I hated Beautiful Mind. Uh, Gladiator, I've actually never seen. Just not a huge fan of his stuff. And I think he is so good in this movie. I mean, this performance to me is one of the great acting performances of the 90s. It is incredible. And it's such a shame he won an Oscar for, I believe, a Beautiful Mind, and I think maybe also Gladiator. He's so much better in this movie, certainly that he isn't Beautiful Mind.
SPEAKER_00And because he disappears into the character.
SPEAKER_01Oh, a hundred percent. One hundred percent. And the thing that got me that thinking about this, and what I think I said to the clip, there's a moment in this movie that I it's one of the is one of the best live readings ever. He says, he's basically this is a story about this executive at Brown and Williamson attacker company who is being pushed to testify in this court, Mississippi. And if he testifies, he could go to jail. It's all this like pressure on him, and it's a really beautifully set up scene where you set the water behind him, and then he looks at the police like you see all the pressures on him. And he just says in this very understated way, fuck it, let's go to court. I said it more aggressively than he did. He kind of almost like says it as a matter-of-fact, fuck it. And I just love that moment because it is so true to life that in moments of great moral crisis and great pressure, sometimes you just call the fuck it. And that's what drives you to do things. I thought it was like such a real moment from that character. And I I don't know. It's one of the things that I loved that it's performed, I loved about the movie, I thought it was just real. And it and it and there's a certain emotion to it that I think is lacking in a lot of man's films.
SPEAKER_00Just a huge fan of it. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And the cast is quite deep. Uh we didn't mention uh Philip Acre Hall. Always a pleasure to see. Always a pleasure to see. Um, he plays Don Hewitt, right? Yes, yes. Nice, nicely shown to be, you know, in the pocket of the man, which I always appreciate. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Um that's and I'll tell you what, it's it's um it's the kind of movie that I think we could possibly do in this podcast, because I think it is does have a little bit of a 70s feel to it. Maybe the only Michael Mann film, except maybe Thief, that really maybe James Conn and Tuesday Weld. Um he's not really a 70s director, I think, right?
SPEAKER_00I don't think so. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01But this movie is so good I could see us talking about it at some point. Because one of the credos of this podcast is that not every 70s film was made in the 70s. And that is what we're talking about today. 1989 drama, I guess. Drama works.
SPEAKER_00It's a drama. Drama. Sure, why not?
SPEAKER_01It's funny, but it's a drama. It's a drama, yeah. Sex, lies, and videotape, which um tells the story of an outwardly happy married couple and their sister whose lives are disrupted when an old friend with a dark secret comes to town and chaos ensues. Uh listen, it is directed by Steven Soderbergh, who will be talking about at some length in this podcast. This is his first feature film, was this movie. He made it when he was 26 years old. He also wrote the screenplay, uh, in and he edited the film as well. It is uh stars James Spader, Andy McDowell, Peter Gallagher, and Laura San Giacomo. Music by Cliff Martinez, who's done a number of Steven Soderberg films. Uh, I want to get into a lot of questions of this movie, but we're just gonna start off what we always do, the point that everyone's waiting for. I know those of you listening are probably frustrated that we haven't gotten to this point yet in the podcast, but here we go. Jonathan, sex, lies, and videotape. Is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie, or is this a great movie?
SPEAKER_00You know, I'd say it was a great movie, but that would not do this movie justice.
SPEAKER_01I had the exact same thought.
SPEAKER_00I had the exact same thought.
SPEAKER_01Great does not do it justice.
SPEAKER_00So I'm gonna go with kind of monumentally great, you know, skyscraper great. What we want from the movie's great. It's just uh again, that's I can't say it put it any better than than that great does not begin to describe how good this movie is. This movie is just it is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01Okay? And I want to say also, the movie is great. However, you always talk about having an emotional connection to a film. Yes. I have a deep emotional connection to this film. Now, when I was a kid, I would read all the reviews, you know, in Rolling Stone or Spin or whatever magazine I was reading at the time of like the movies that like were not the blockbusters, and I'd go out and see them. That's that was my thing. This movie, I saw it when it came out in 1989 at the I think it was the Ritz or the Rock State. I think it was the Ritz Theater in Philadelphia, which was a theat theater that showed like art house movies. And it was a lot of attention because it won the Palm D'Or at the Cannes Film Festival. Yes. And I and so that was a big, big deal at the time. And I saw this movie with a woman who I ended up dating. We saw this movie, and it was like our first date, really. And it was so it's a very memorable movie for me because of that experience, but also just because it is a great frigging film. And I watched it again. We had a conversation, you and I did about Sodaburg, which I love Sodaburg, and I said how much I love it out of sight. And you're like, no, no, sexualizing videotape's the best. I'm like, really? Is it? I gotta watch it again. So I watched it again, and I was like, yeah, Jonathan's correct, it is the best film. And I've watched it now at least three or four times since we had that conversation. It it continues to hold up as just a great piece of cinema. But I want to ask you before we get into this why it's so good. The more important question, because this is a 70s film podcast. Why is it a 70s film?
SPEAKER_00Why are we talking about this today? So to take that last question first, because we need to get this out of the way, uh it is tricky as to as to whether it's like a hundred percent of a 70s film, because it kind of ends a little happily, which, as you know, as a real no-no. But it is, it has, you know, there are guidelines, not rules. We're talking about a 70s film. The whole point is you don't walk lockstep. The whole point is you go your own way and find what you want to do and let a thousand flowers bloom, blah, blah, blah, whatever the heck you mean by that. Right. But but what but there are certain elements to a 70s film that are there. This is definitely character-driven over plot-driven. I mean, I don't I'm not sure there is a plot to this movie. Right. Right. Um and so it's it is about the exploration of four characters and and almost nothing else. And it and it takes a deep dive into them. It is a small film. It was obviously a profoundly personal film for the filmmaker and the filmmakers. And so it's just dedicated to the craft. Everybody who was involved with the picture, as far as we can tell, was thinking deeply about the types of things they were trying to say, getting into the characters. Soderberger had some- Soderberg had something he wanted to say. He executed the story extremely well. This is an extremely well-structured story. It's small and it's tight. The direction is excellent, but not at all showy. And so I think for me, I emphasize the enterprise itself, right? That these people got together and made this film because they wanted to make this particular film and that it had some things that the filmmakers wanted to say, and it was a dive into character and and and often a squirm-inducing dive. Yes. Yes. So even though it has a happy ending, I don't think it's easily described as a feel-good movie, uh, which would be kind of the ultimate 70s no-no.
SPEAKER_01That's interesting. Is it a f I mean it kind of is a feel-good movie, but it's it's not that's not the biggest takeaway from the film. Okay. All right. Okay. Maybe you can feel good after you watch it. Bye. I think you can feel good after this movie, actually. I think it's possible. Um so I want to make I want to uh take an addendum to what you just said. Soderberg has talked about three movies that influence the making of this film. Five Easy Pieces, which we discussed, I think, in our third episode, The Last Picture Show, which we discussed a couple of months ago, and Coral Knowledge, which we've not discussed yet. And I can absolutely see uh references to those three films, or I could see the influence of OC films in this movie. Um but there's something else that's really, I think, important about this movie. This movie kicked off the independent film wave of the basically early late 80s, early 90s. Um and I if you were I it look, it's funny about this. Before you and I started doing this podcast, I thought to myself, it would be fun to do a podcast about early 90s cinema because that is my second favorite period of cinema, uh, historically speaking. I I think there's just such great, there's such great movies in, in part because there was such great energy in the film industry where you had this outlet for independent filmmakers to make small, interesting, creative films that just went against the the sort of the um uh conventional wisdom. And it's funny when I look at sort of the films nominated for Best Picture, and then I think about like, you know, I think in '91, there was actually some good film nominated in '91. I think this was the Lands one that year. But like One False Move was not nominated, and I think you and I agree, that's as good a movie as was made in the nineties as anything. Yes. So you had but I mean you had this, like, I think you had some interesting things happening in Hollywood, but you had this interesting, really compelling independent uh media, independent film spirit in in filmmaking that I think really drove a lot of the 90s filmmaking. And I don't think you have that as much now, unfortunately, it's just a different world. But like this movie was made for like a million dollars. And and took it to con. He got it won the Palm d'Or very uh very controversially over Do the Right Thing. Uh a fact that Spike Lee is uh has reminded people about consistently that he did lots of palm d'or to this film.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell In an ungenerous way.
SPEAKER_01And uh as as is Spike Lee's way, often in an ungenerous way. Uh he thinks very highly of himself and his abilities. There's no- I mean I think I think is a great is a great movie.
SPEAKER_00There is one could have been a little more gracious in that particular moment.
SPEAKER_01I agree. But it and I hate to bring this person up because but we kind of do have to because what got this film to get more attention was Miramax, uh, which was a major film production company at the time, of course, run by the odious Harvey Weinstein, and he is an odious human being. If I told you this before, like my friends and I, we rated like who is the worst Jew in America, and he's like in the top three for sure. Two, you know, but having said that, like Miramax did really champion a lot of really wonderful independent film and put a lot of filmmakers on the map, including Steven Soderbergh. So this is, I think, to talk this movie I think feels very 70s to me because it really does capture a moment when cinema was pushing boundaries in a way that is was really compelling and really interesting. Um But let's talk about Soderbergh really quick. Uh how how do you Okay, so people who've listened to the podcast for know that I love Steven Soderbergh, he's one of my favorite directors. How do you feel about him and his his his output?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell So I've been holding this in reserve. I kind of gave you a little teaser over email that I was going to have something to say about this. Because Soderbergh I have an enormous admiration for. And he has conducted his career. If everybody conducted their careers in this business like that, it would be the greatest thing ever. He's thoughtful, he's he's good at his job, he's prolific, and I do take that seriously. Not prolific in a lazy way, but prolific in a you know, a writer writes, uh, an actor acts, a director directs. I mean, he's usually working on something. He also has his finger on the pulse of so many things about film history. He's he is invariably the greatest guest commentator on a DVD with the director and chat about the movie, so he's kind of steeped in in cenophilia. He's made, you know, dozens of very entertaining movies, but but listen to what I just said. I used the word entertaining. I know, you do. And so you you know something bad is about to happen. I know. And so having nothing but praise for this figure in kind of modern film history, I want to say something mean, uh, and I want to invoke the laziest and most ignorant trope used in movie criticism, which is the Citizen Kane trope, which is, oh, Orson Wells was never as good as he was in his first picture. Let me tell you something. Orson Wells did some spectacular things throughout the entire course of her remarkable career across multiple media platforms. And so you just stop saying that if you ever started saying that. But it is hard to top Citizen Kane. It is hard to top. Although it's I prefer Touch of Evil. If I could save one film, it would probably be Touch of I prefer Touch of Evil to Citizen Kane. But I'm thankfully we don't have to choose between the two. But I do want to say something pointed about Soderbergh, which is, I don't think, across that long, laudable, admirable, prolific career, that I wish there were more figures like him out there, that he ever came close to touching the emotional depth of character that he did in his first film as a 26-year-old, Sex Lives and Videotape. And that's that's uh harsh, uh, but I think it's true. And I was reading something Amy Talbon wrote, because I was giving this some thought. And Amy Talbin is a great, great critic and a very thoughtful writer, and she said he stopped writing. You know, he does mostly all of his shooting. He's a cinematographer under a fake name, and he does a lot of his own editing under a fake name. He's he this may be his he's only has a screenwriting credit for eight or ten films, and almost all of those are partnered or adaptations. This may be the only film of original material that he wrote from scratch. And if that's true, I think it's very, very noticeable, and I'm irritated with him that he stopped doing that.
SPEAKER_01You know, I think those are all good, you know, very fair criticisms, actually. Not criticisms, but fair observations. Look, I'm a huge fan of his, and I and I, because I find his movies incredibly entertaining. That's the word you use. I think it's the word I would also use. Um I made up a I put up a list here. I wrote it down before we started. Uh Out of Sight, it's a fantastic movie. Um Oceans Eleven is a fantastically entertaining movie. My kids love that movie. I showed them when they were young. It's a wonderful movie. Limey. I love the Limey. It's like a sort of a point-blank remake, but it's great. Lucky Logan, a movie I have a weirdly uh huge, and I've talked about it I think in other episodes. I just love that film. Uh Savies Summit Oceans 11. It's sort of a hillbilly Oceans 11, I guess you might call it. Uh I think Aaron Brockovich is a great film. I think Traffic is a great film. I think his his uh his the remake he did of Solaris is maybe one of his best films and uh a credible George Clooney performance. And I look at his filmography. This guy, by the way, has made 36, I think, films. I don't know. Um there's a few films he probably has made since we started talking today because he makes a lot of films. I didn't mention, by the way, The Informant, uh which is a fantastic film. The Contagion Behind Behind the Candelabra. Um No Sudden Move.
SPEAKER_00I liked Behind the Candelabra a lot and um also Traffic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think Behind the Candelabra has a little more emotion to it than some of his other films. I think it's a great film, great Michael Douglas performance. Yeah. Um he did uh No Sudden Move, which was uh Benicio de Toro, I think Don Sheatle's in that. Another great film. Uh Haywire is actually a very entertaining film. He just makes a lot of good films, but I do think you make a fair point that he doesn't necessarily make um masterpieces. I think he's like he's he's a his batting average is extraordinarily good. He's like the Ty Cobb or, you know, uh of uh movie makers. Like he's a high batting average, but he's not hitting 400 is maybe what it comes. Maybe that's the analogy I'm looking for here.
SPEAKER_00I would phrase it slightly differently because it's not so much the masterpiece thing for me. It's that sexalized videotape, which I do think is a masterpiece. But more important for me is it's the only, and I think this is true, the only sort of movie where I I catch my breath uh because I'm so thrown by the emotions that the characters are expressing. I think that's right. I think that's right.
SPEAKER_01So um and I'll say one more thing I want to get into it really quickly. The thing about about Sudobray makes very interesting, he is I think why it's good that they can kind of respect that someone like uh Kubrick or Scorsese, other folks get, is that he is not an auteur.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01He he just makes a lot of really interesting and different kinds of movies. There's the the one consistent point is that they are well done and they are entertaining. Yes. Uh but this movie is such an original movie, and and let's just get to this point. You know, he was 26 when he made this film. Yes.
SPEAKER_00It's astonishing.
SPEAKER_01Allegedly wrote it over eight days. He barely been to think about it for a year or so, was driving from uh Louisiana to whether it was filmed to Los Angeles, or maybe it was I don't know, driving in to between those two places. It was percolating for a very long time. The actual writing maybe was quick, but the theater is like eight days he took to actually write it. Um and it is a movie that I think shows a level of talent so far beyond what you would expect from somebody of his age. Um that is what is I find extraordinary. The choices he makes in this film, the editing choices, the directorial choices he makes, they're just they are of a filmmaker far more. Season experience. And that's to me what impresses me so much about this movie.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's it's quite remarkable in that this is a debut feature. Because a debut feature, a lot of them can be, even by an accomplished director, can be more showy or flashy or look ma I'm directing. I think it's very rare for a debut feature to elicit the performances from characters in a w with this level of subtlety and that the directing is shorthanded as opposed to say overconfident.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus That's right. That's right. I mean, there is a confidence level that he displays in this movie that is extraordinary. And it's a quiet film, right? It's a film that that takes its time, but also the pacing is so good. I'm I was watching it again recently and I was blown away by how it doesn't it doesn't it it doesn't lag at all. He did edit it also, that I think is unusual for again a first-time filmmaker. Also for a movie, there's really just about four people talking in rooms. Yes. That's what this movie basically is.
SPEAKER_00But with regard to the pacing, I think it's very Hitchcockian. Not that it's a suspense thriller, but Hitchcock used to talk about how a movie has to, the scenes of a movie have to be connected like the scene the cars of a train. Each car has to connect to the one in an essential way. And if you don't know why it's there, it has to go. And so the scene to scene to scene to scene, I think the reason why the pacing of this movie works so well is because everything follows forward on what had recently happened in a way that immediately becomes logical and essential. And there's an overlapping element to it.
SPEAKER_01And I let's just get into this to it. The opening of the film, we see Andy McDowell, who plays Ann Bishop. She's talking to her therapist and she's talking about garbage. It's a very fancy. And those of you who were around in the 80s will remember that garbage was like a really big policy issue because there was this barge that was floating around for like years with garbage and nobody would take it. And everyone's like, What are we gonna do with all the garbage? She talks about that. And she's having this conversation with her therapist, and they therapist asks about her marriage and what's happening with her husband, whether they're having sex, and she sort of says no and says she doesn't want to touch her. And then she sort of mentions, you know, I I had this like really terrible feeling they didn't want to touch me. And then the next, and while this is happening, we see her husband uh going to his to his girlfriend's uh apartment. Not just any girlfriend. And how does it get to that? Played by Loris and Giacomo. I mean, it's such a great way to set up this film. You get a good insight into Anne's character, sort of how repressed she is, because like for example, the therapist asks her about masturbation and the way she blushes. By the way, this is something that Suterber talked about, Danny McDowell. She could blush on cue and just do it repeatedly. And he was blown away by how she could do this. And she comes across as like uncomfortable about this conversation, and she has a great line about I'm always worried like my dead grandfather's gonna see me while I'm doing it, right? It just seems so pointless, she says. And meanwhile, her husband's having sex with her sister at the same time.
SPEAKER_00So you've put six things out there as you often do, and I want to just often do I just want to jump on two of them because that first scene is sets up the movie, not just by setting up the action, but the title of the movie, you know, sex, lies, and videotape, in the therapist's office, and the therapist asks her, How are things with John? And she says, Oh, they're great, blah, blah, blah. And then she says, you know, uh, I mean, I don't want them to touch me or anything, but so what's the lie? The lie there is whatever lies she's telling herself about her life. And so right there in scene one, we're seeing such a crucial element of the movie, which is it's not just about the lies that people tell other people, it's about the lies that people tell themselves themselves. I do want to pause and just genuflect before Andy McDowell's goal, her performance in this movie. If you were to make a list of, say, ten great female actors of the last X number of years, I don't think she would be on that list personally. But this performance is astonishing. It's hard to imagine it being improved upon. It's it's it's just a skyscraping piece of work.
SPEAKER_01So let's talk about Andy McDowell for a second, because people who may know the story that she was in a movie called Tarzan Graystroke or something. It was came out in the 80s, and apparently performance was so bad, or I guess it was it was so bad her accent was so southern that they literally had to dub another actress's, I think it was Glenn Close actually, uh, to do an overdub of another actress speaking her lines. So, you know, she at this point was not considered like a top actress. And in fact, Soderbergh actually, he wrote this uh wrote this this um this role apparently for Elizabeth McGovern, who was a big actress like in the sort of late 80s, early 90s, and apparently her Asian hated it so much, didn't even show it to her. And McDowell was up for it, and Soderberg was like, I don't, I don't want her, I don't think she's the right person for the role. She came in, the screen test, blew Soderbergh away, and was like, all right, we're gonna have her in this performance. I just haven't seen a lot of uh Andy McDowell films. Groundhog Day is the most obvious one. I don't think she's very good in that movie at all, actually. She is I have don't the world astounding doesn't do it justice to how good she is in this movie. I mean, this is a extraordinary performance that is so compelling uh as a character. We talk about this before, like that sometimes really beautiful actors and actresses get get typecast or they get underappreciated because they're so beautiful. I I said this to you offline. I don't know there's ever been a more beautiful actress in a film than Andy McDowell. But just for the record, so is James Spader, who's also in this film, and he's also fantastic. But I want to say this about McDowell. One thing I've noticed about Soderbergh's films that I think really is interesting is that he gets great performance out of out of female actresses. I think of some of his best films, Out of Sight, for example. Easily Jennifer Lopez's best film, and not somebody I think of as a great actress, but she's great in that movie. Aaron Brockovich, uh, a movie actually I think is really good. Julie Roberts, not an actress that I think is all that special. She's great in that movie. Um Catherine Zeta Jones in Traffic. Oh my god, she's amazing in that movie. Both her and Clooney are so good. By the way, for those of you listening, go out and watch Solaris. It's such a good movie. Uh, don't see the original. We can see the original if you want. It's Tikosky, it's great, whatever. But this one, such a good remake, and she's great at it. He is really good at getting great performances out of actresses. I don't know what happened on this film because she's never come close to recreating what she does in this movie, but he gets something out of her in this role. Maybe it's maybe it's the character, I don't know, that is just otherworldly.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. And I'm even reluctant to acknowledge that she's never been this good in a in another movie because I think that calls attention to the other movies. So whereas, you know, we want to really just emphasize the astonishing nature of this performance. I it's hard for me to picture another actor, even a great actor, performing this role in the with the depth and the subtlety that that she brings here. I think actually the f there are four principal characters, and I think they're all outstanding across the board. But I think her performance is just uh almost unnerving in its greatness. Great, I agree.
SPEAKER_01And and and we'll just say there, I mean, so we we talked about the opening sort of scene of the movie, we're talking to a therapist, and then meanwhile, her her husband, played by Peter Gallagher, is having a relationship affair with his uh with her sister, Laura Sa Giacomo. And then we meet uh Graham, who's played by James Spader. Um, and Graham comes to her house, and this is another, like, this is a great opening to the movie, wonderful scene. We see we meet Graham, and we see him, by the way, before he's like he's like at a uh gas station bathroom, takes like a sponge bath, and then we see him show up to the house, and he has this and he's staying with them, and she's very look concerned about she's like a little anxious about him staying with her, uh with them. He's an old college friend of John, and they meet, and you see he sort of uh adheres to this philosophy of brutal honesty at all times. And you kind of see it in this opening thing. First of all, he says I have to go to the bathroom, then he says, No, I didn't have to go with the false alarm. And then he asks her a lot of personal questions. And I know there's one you like particularly, so maybe maybe jump in here if you could.
SPEAKER_00Well, what I love is it's not uh a personal question, though he does ask her things like, How do you like being married? which is, you know, that's a very personal question to say to someone you've just met, uh, which which tells us a lot about the character. But he also says to her, and I I don't think one notices this unless you've seen the movie a couple of times, he says to her very early on in that first scene, have you ever been on television? And if you once you've watched this movie, you know what being on television kind of means to him when he's talking about a woman. And so he's all already, we're being told, is in some way attracted to her. And we also can see in the scenes that unfold that she is in some way attracted to him, although again, each character is is holding their distance from each other for very obvious and appropriate reasons. But the initial attraction, I think, is very clear, and that line kind of slips by because we don't know anything about the the the videotape part when he says it. So I also think that was a very a very lovely little seed to plant there. Right. As I mentioned to you elsewhere, it reminded me of the way Warren Beatty's character in Shampoo, much less subtly, would say to a woman, Who does your hair? Which is also, you know, his way of saying, Do you know I'd really like to sleep with you? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01No, I think you're right. And I think but I think also you do see there's a little bit something uncomfortable about him. And the way he asks her, like, you know, how do you like being married? And she has what I would what I would call a um unconvincing uh answer when she says she likes it plenty or likes it a lot. Her answer does not she talks about how they have this nice house and John her husband's a partner, and I don't get the impression, you don't get the impression she's really enjoying being married to John at all.
SPEAKER_00Um but I'm gonna push back on that because I really think that this movie takes place in a certain moment in the space-time continuum with the rise of the yuppie. Uh and when you get into the 80s and and John's character is the ultimate manifestation of the yuppie, and he is so unlikable that this actually hurt his career, I think, because people conflated him with this evil yuppie character. And so that was the type of answer that that culture often produced. You know, what do you like? Well, we have this nice house. John just made junior partner, the way in which people are counting the abacus of personal happiness in a very materialist way. And I don't think she's supposed to be a shallow character in that regard, but that's just simply the culture that is not developing but bifurcating, that people are going in two different directions uh in society at that time. And so obviously Graham reflects the the the other path one might have taken in that dismal decade.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr. So I think that yeah, very dismal decade. And I think to your point, you know, she comes across as a shallow character in that initial scene. But as the film goes on, I think we realize that she is actually the the deepest emotion- I mean, certainly not just emotionally. Uh well, mainly emotionally. She's the deepest character in the film. She's the most introspective character in the film, although it doesn't happen until I think later. Right. But she's uh and also I think the most insightful character in the film, right? I mean, she understands something about herself and about Graham that he doesn't understand. And so, you know, I think in a lot of ways, like it's her this movie, as you said, is a character um driven story. Her character arc is the most interesting. And it's a question I'm just thinking about, is she the main character in this film or is Graham the main character in this film?
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't have a confident answer about that. I think I would have to say that she is. Obviously the two of them are more central characters than the other two players who are, you know, given a lot of attention in the movie. But but what what you gestured at in your comments, I think is the interesting part of it, is that when we meet Graham as the outsider, he seems to have a certain wisdom and even serenity to him and the whole honesty thing. And she seems a little superficial, but the trajectory of the movie is to slowly reveal the depth of her character so that at the end, which we won't talk about yet, when they have their final confrontation, it is she who kind of reveals the the limits of the life that he has built. And so she sees through everything.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr. She sees through him in a way that I I don't think actually as a movie viewer, I saw through. Yeah, she I mean that was what I thought was so interesting. Right, her the way she sees him is how I mean in the movie the character sees him as much as you, the audience member, sees him. And she has an insight to his character that I think is incredibly rich and is one that I actually remember when I uh when I watched it again recently, I was just surprised by how insightful she is about him. Now, we have to talk about Graham's big secret I mentioned earlier. And Graham's secret is that he basically records women talking about sex. And why does he do this? Because he had a terrible breakup with this woman named Elizabeth, who we date in college. He's done the Heisman to intimacy. He has basically avoided any intimate connections with a woman, right? And instead, he gets off literally from recording women talking about sex and then watching those videos. That's the videotape part of this film. And, you know, there are some sort of parallels, interestingly, to our current uh moment in that in that he uh chooses to record people and talk to people uh or watch people on a on a TV or a screen rather than uh actually having an intimate relationship with them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there's a slight difference, as Ann explained to John, he has to know them, right? Because John says, Why can't he just look at pornography or something? And she said, No, he actually has to know the people or it doesn't work for him.
SPEAKER_01Does he really know them? I mean, he records her sister and he doesn't really know her at all. Uh which by the way, let's get to that because so the recording of these videos, we see him watching the videos at some point and you know, pleasuring himself.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, we we assume leading to one of the ten great jokes in this movie, because he's watching a videotape and she knocks on the door and says, Am I bothering you? And he says, No, I can finish later.
SPEAKER_01I can finish later.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Um so the sister, uh Cynthia, finds out about this guy who's visiting, and she's intrigued by him. And she's intrigued by him because I think that she senses that her sister is intrigued by him, and she then wants to sleep with him, right? Or wants to I mean, you early on in the film she talks about how she has this rivalry with her sister and wants to tell the world that she's a better lay than the great Anne Bishop Mullaney, as she puts it, a wonderful line reading. And in fact, she says she wants to, you know, have sex in their bed where Ann and John sleep, and eventually they do. I mean, she has this rivalry with him, and so when she finds out about Graham, you see that sort of sense of of rivalry of her wanting to sort of one up uh her sister. And then, of course, she goes over to visit him and she ends up making a tape. Great tape, by the way, great conversation, and she ends up masturbating.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell And they are you know archetypes. I mean, because Anne is repressed, and so Cynthia obviously, what is it, this loud or an extrovert or however the way she is described. Right, both I think carrying on this affair with John. I am so fond of Cynthia, though. I really love the way she summons John when she feels like seeing him and dispenses with him when she's done with him. One of my favorite lines in this movie is after they she and John have had sex and they're talking, and she says, You can go now. You can go now. I'm done with you.
SPEAKER_01I don't need you anymore. Uh no, I think you're right. And I think that that and like that that rivalry between the two of them is such a crucial part of the film. Although I do think as a f by the end of the film, I think Well, if we put it a different way. One thing I think that's interesting about her character, um, Cynthia, every character in this film has an intimacy problem. This film is not about sex, right? I think if you went to this film thinking this was gonna be a sexy film I mean, this is a sexy film in some respects. I think it is, Lee's, but it is not a sexy film in the way we think about sexy films. There's no nude scenes in this movie.
SPEAKER_00There's no nude scenes in this movie.
SPEAKER_01Right. You you do sort of see people in bed, but usually it's after. I think there's one moment during uh you don't really see sex in this film. And this movie is not about sex. This movie is about intimacy and the and the lack thereof from all of the main characters. Right? So Jonathan and Cynthia are having sex. They're having the most sex in the movie, and they're not intimate. Graham is having no sex in the movie, and he has the most intimate relationship with Anne, who also has no sex in the movie. I think that is actually really interesting about this movie that the the that and and John and okay, so just to step back a second, Graham is avoiding intimacy by making videotapes and watching masturbating, and Anne is avoiding intimacy by not letting her husband touch her. And and I think it's interesting, by the way, when she and John have this like have this like fight at one point, and he complains about how you treat you treat me like I'm I'm dipped in shit. Because for him, intimacy is about sex. That's how he understands intimacy. He doesn't understand it as some kind of emotional connection, which they don't have, and which is what's causing her to not want to have sex with him.
SPEAKER_00And this actually improves my earlier comment about what makes this a 70s film, because it's there's such a misunderstanding about the end of censorship and how now you can just show anything. And I favor nudity in films for its honesty and it can play a functional and dramatic role. I think nudity would have undermined this particular and I think it's great that there's no nudity in this movie. But what's super 70s about it is the embrace of human sexuality as a vehicle to explore human emotions. And so, as you said, it's sex has a bit of tape, but it's not the sex is not sex. It's a way in which each of these people interact with their own sexuality and how it represents troubles in their own character. And that's very 70s. So the use of sex to explore character.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And I think it's also it's sex, but it's also that it's funny because I think one of the interesting, sort of intimate scenes in the movie uh isn't really about sex at all. I'm talking about the scene maybe one of the best scenes in the entire movie, where s uh Ann is helping Graham find an apartment. Uh and they go to this restaurant and they have this conversation where they like say tell tell a deep dark secret. And you know, Anne's secret is that she thinks sex is overrated, and she thinks that uh that like women don't she says a lie that women want sex as much as men do, which feels like a s um a rationalization that she's engaging in. Yeah. Right? And then Graham tells her that he's impotent. Yeah. And he can't have sex, right? And he can't have sex because he he uh uh because of his intimacy issues that he has. And there is a line in there he says, Men learn to love the person that they're attracted to, women become more and more attracted to the person they love. Actually, I love the dialogue here because like like Anne goes, that's beautiful, that's a really beautiful. And Graham's like, well, I'm just quoting. I didn't make that up. Like there's such a naturalistic element to the dialogue here. Like it's and there's such a like I love Graham the whole film. He's like so radically honest he can't even take credit for the fact that he he he memor he remembered that line. He's like, Oh, someone else said it. But that scene is incredibly intimate because they're sharing something very um secret about themselves. And it's funny because it's juxtaposed at the same moment this is happening, John invites Cynthia over to have sex in their bed. And they have sex in the bed. And that is so much less intimate of a situation than uh what Graham and Anne are are engaged in.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and it's also very well structured because John suggested that Anne go apartment shopping uh with Graham because that was one way to get her out of the house because Cynthia had said she wanted to have have sex in their house. And so immediately he acts upon this and gets rid of them in in that way by very cleverly suggesting that you help him uh with the apartment shopping.
SPEAKER_01But I just find it like what I this is what I love about what he's doing in what Soderbergh is doing in the film. I mean, he the way he juxtaposes this issue of sex and intimacy, and how you see that the intimacy or the emotional connection between I mean, look, this is the second time they're meeting. And I would argue they have a more sincere emotional connection than Cynthia and John do, who just had sex. And I love the fact when like when when Cynthia leaves, he's like, you know, drive safe or something like that. She's like, yeah, whatever. And he's like looking at the male. Like they're it's it was such an it almost like it meant nothing to either one of them that just they just had sex. And it's completely different. I think with the the conversation between Ann and Graham, you do see them developing this bond, this relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and it comes out in her next therapy session when the therapist asks whether she confronted John about uh the the the unscheduled guest, or you know, and and she talks about how that kind of worked out nicely, and it's very subtle. But her the use of her body and her legs in that conversation really, I think, illustrates her intrigue with Graham.
SPEAKER_01But don't you think also like that she the way she like runs her finger along the glass. Yeah. There's there is a sexiness in this scene. There's a flirtatiousness in this scene that is palpable. I think more for her than for him. I mean, she is intrigued by him. There's no question about it. Intrigued. And you see it early on, there's a there's a very interesting scene. That where she goes up, he's sleeping in their on their in their in their house on a sofa, and she goes up to him in the middle of the night and just kind of kneels in in front n next to him, and then she walks away and he wakes up and he's he obviously uh knew that she was there. And it's a very small moment in the film, but it's clear that she feels this connection to him almost immediately. Arguably way more connection than she feels with her husband.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I you know me, I prefer to stay with the movie, but I want to step outside of it for a second and talk about the fondling of the glass scene at the diner because they've all talked about it uh after the fact. That Soderberg says he saw her doing it, he assumed she was doing it subconsciously, and said nothing because he didn't want to interfere or call attention to the motion. So that wasn't a direction he gave her. She was just doing it and he assumed she was doing it without thinking. She reports that this was something that she had thought through very elaborately and that wanted to do it as an actorly move, and it worked so effectively. And so again, just the the the actor thinking, the collaboration, the director seeing, all those things meshing together. I mean, there's something magical when that works. And I since I'm already doing this stepping outside the movie part, uh I I need to report that the when she almost spills her tea, she says that was actually an act that was not planned. Uh she that was a totally spontaneous uh thing. And and I I guess I guess Spader jumped in to warn her, you know, oh, you're you're about to lose your ice or something.
SPEAKER_01Well, that comes later in the film, right? Yeah. When she goes over and she sees the videotapes and she asks about it, and he tells her what he's doing, and she is so I mean unnerved. Uh unnerved. Yeah, unnerved by by what he's telling her that she sort of runs out of the uh apartment. By the way, again, I'm sorry to keep filling this point. She is so beautiful in that scene. I mean, I I can't get past, like, again, the way Setup shocked. I mean, she's a beautiful woman, I realize, but she just looks so beautiful in that scene. The way he I the way he kind of captures her, she's almost like um a character who seems like almost too beautiful for this world. You know, like there's something like really kind of crazy how how attractive she is. And by the end of the film, part of it's because the way she dresses. I think the thing about the way she dresses is very prim and very proper. You know, near the end, she discovers about this affair. There's a a pearl earring mentioned early in the film, uh, Chekhov's pearl earling. A pearl earring. And um she f she that that Cynthia has lost, and Anne finds it when she's vacuuming the the uh the house. Yes. And it's interesting because she tears her clothes off and she's wearing like a white shirt, and you reveal this black undershirt. And when she goes to see Graham, she's dressed in like blue jeans and a black tank top. It's like it's a completely different look than she's had in the rest of the film.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and there's again, you've given me six things, I'm gonna take two of them. There's so much going on here. It's it's amazing because that whole sequence is actually uh strikes me as a Betty for Dan sequence. She is throwing herself into her housework with such incredible, you know, overwhelming uh effort. And it is because this is what has she is using to fill her otherwise empty life. Right. And so she's cleaning this, she's cleaning that, and that's why she's doing this aggressive vacuuming and then finds the earring that has been left in the bedroom, and that's when she realizes uh what has been going on. And then, as you say, it is uh transformative as expressed by her wardrobe change on on screen, and then she races back over uh to Graham's house. And in both of those scenes, there are all of these really well-turned phrases. Like the first time she runs out of his house i i in horror, uh, that's why Cynthia shows up at his house because she's intrigued. And and he, uh Graham, says, you know, trying to figure out why she's there, and he says, Are are you here to make me feel bad about making her feel bad? Right. I think it's a really nicely turned line. And she, of course, says, No, no, that's you know, that's that that's not why I'm here. The exact opposite, actually. Right.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. You see, by the way, in the scene where where Cynthia visits him, you see the kind of radical honesty. She just he says, Oh, your ancestor, you're the extrovert, and uh like she says, Oh, she's feeling nice. She usually calls me loud, and he's like, Yeah, she called you that too. Like he can't he can't not tell the truth about what has happened or what what what what she said about her uh her. I I just want to say also, Lorcy and Giacomo, I don't know. I again I haven't seen a lot. I know she was in uh couple sitcoms over the years. She is amazing in this film. Terrific. And the scene she does where she records a video with with uh uh Graham is uh just a torte force uh of acting. And and in part because I mean first of all, it's I love the dialogue. I love how she talks about she talked about her first sexual experience when she this boy asked her to pee, and then he checking out he didn't want to pee, and then he asks about the first time she saw a penis, and she says that she says about it like it was like it was as if it was not connected. I started following it as if it was not connected to the guy, which by the way, completely describes her sex life. Yeah. Right? The penis is completely separate from the person who's connected to it because she doesn't want to get involved in any kind of intimacy. And she said that early on to John, she's like, you know, the these these little you know uh uh trists we have don't mean all that much to me. Yes. She said that to him very clearly. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's that's why I find her such a heroic character. But as but as the actor, as you point out, her recording, not only is it great, it's also not easy. You could you're really you're really putting yourself out there. The things that she is expected to say in her monologues and recording that that tape, and yet it's a hundred percent believable, it's a hundred percent real. I'm I'm so impressed with again, there's all the actors here make very daring choices, but that that was probably the most on the ledge moment, I think.
SPEAKER_03Uh, I agree with the movie.
SPEAKER_01Right. I also think it speaks something about her character. You know, she goes over there, I think, with the intention of having sex with Grant. I think that's why. That's why she's going over there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And and just to stick it to Anne, you know. Just to stick it to Anne. Exactly. It's like Right, right, right. Like Anne says, I don't think he's your type, and she's like, You have no idea what my type is because my type is actually your husband. Yes. But like she all but like also she just wants to stick it to Anne. And she can tell, I think, that Anne is intrigued by this guy. Yes. So she wants to put her sort of stamp on him. And she comes away from the experience, however, she doesn't have sex with them. She masturbates. Right. And I the look on her face when she leaves, it's almost like she's had an epiphany. This has been the most intimate moment that she's had, right? To masturbate. I mean, again, it's it's interesting that it's not they're not well no, it's actually no, it's it does speak to this. She didn't even have sex in an intimate moment. She had to have sex with herself to have an intimate moment that she could experience with with Graham at that time. And I I do feel like her character, she immediately calls John and says, Come over, you have to have sex. He does, and then she's then you they're your favorite line, you can go now. I think it I think her characters are transformed after this experience with Graham.
SPEAKER_00Maybe I don't know if I can go all the way to transformed because you know when she calls John, this this experience with Graham has also made her, you know, off the scale hot. I mean, she's she's calling him like she's calling a fireman, you know. That's true. That's true. You gotta come here and put out this fire right now. And and that's one of the reasons it gets him in trouble at work, but she is really, really turned on by the experience.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell And of course she does also call Ann to tell her about what happened because she wants to hurt Ann in some respects, you know.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell Well and we haven't and probably won't spend a lot of time just talking about the depth of the relationship. This is in some ways a movie about two sisters, and and that relationship also has a trajectory to it, and there are several scenes just between the two sisters, and you can you can feel the dynamic of that relationship going all the way back to childhood.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, you there's such a rivalry between the two of them, and you can feel it. It's it's palpable that you know that Anne doesn't respect her sister, thinks her sister is too loud and too extroverted, has sex with strange men, and she works in a bar, and you know, Cynthia thinks Anne is repressed, which she is, and and doesn't respect her and and you know thinks she's a lousy leg and wants everyone to know what that feels a sense of jealousy toward her. I mean, that's true. But by the end of the movie, they they do seem to have made up, which is sort of interesting because you know because Anne does know that Cynthia's slept with her husband. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00She does know this. She does. But it's a beautiful recon little small reconciliation scene at the very end, initiated by Anne. But I do want to s flag the on the question of rivalry, on Cynthia's videotape, they're talking about her appearance because she's starting to disrobe, we don't see this, it's off screen. And and he says he makes reference to her beauty, and she says something like, you know, am I as attractive as Anne? I found that very cutting for me. I was deeply moved by that uh because this is so much of what defines the character of Cynthia her own insecurity about her appearance as in comparison to Anne.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you could argue that I mean all these characters except maybe for John are are incredibly deeply insecure characters and deeply insecure. And that's that's I guess partly why they're so fear of they have such fear of intimacy. I mean, I guess you know why John's very insecure too, because John gets insecure because his wife doesn't want to touch him, right? And I mean I mean, I guess that's understandable, but it it makes him think it makes him feel, you know, less attracted, even though he's having sex with her sister. He's not like women don't find and he compl and he says early on in the film that when he got a ring, it's one of the first lines, that women started coming up to him like crazy, right? And they hitting on him like crazy. But that is not enough for him. He needs every woman to feel that way toward him, and his wife's gonna feel that way toward him, even though she's he's cheating on her. This obviously causes him some sense of insecurity, some sense of feeling inadequate. So I yeah, so I think I do think that this movie is a lot about just, again, as I said before, it's a lot about the the the lack intimacy or lack thereof of each of the characters. But we really need to get to go ahead, I'm sorry, you want to jump in.
SPEAKER_00I wanted to ask you a question that's always troubled me. She finds the earring, she goes um to Graham's, and then she returns and has a confrontation with John, and John presumes that Graham told her about his affair. Mr. Tr Mr. Truth, Mr. Apostle of Honesty, as if you know Graham but actually she discovered it on her own, and she doesn't correct him. Which doesn't I mean she doesn't need to correct him, it's not her children. She also doesn't say that you're having you're fucking my sister. She doesn't say that either. Yes. But she could have. For some reason, I have always that has always lingered with me that that he assumed that Graham told her of the affair. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01No, I assume I think that's what he actually exactly what happens. I think that he I guess that kind of slept with her.
SPEAKER_00No, no, he does, but that's a separate that's a separate thing. When they have their confrontation, I see he says Graham told you, and he blames it on Graham's obsession with being honest, that he just couldn't keep it to himself. But we were told earlier in the movie by Graham, he said, actually, I don't think I would have told you. I don't know. For me, there's something about that little piece of business that it was she who discovered the infidelity, but that in maybe this is irrelevant and doesn't matter if it's something that's always stuck in my mind about this movie. But as far as John is concerned, his infidelity was exposed because Graham exposed it.
SPEAKER_01I don't think that's actually it. Because if you remember when he finds out that Cynthia made the tape, he's really bothered by this, right? He's bothered that it could go out into the world. Yes. And I think he's more upset about the propriety of his wife making a tape because he's fear because now, I mean, I think if you want to get deeper on this, I think he's bothered that Graham had this sort of intimate moment with his wife that he could not have. Or that he's worried that what the tape they produce is going to go out into the world, it's gonna make it's gonna make him look bad and embarrass him. I I don't know this because he's No, I think those things are all true.
SPEAKER_00But I think if if you if you looked at the movie like a jigsaw puzzle, I do think the movie is saying that John thinks Graham narc.
SPEAKER_01You know, that's interesting. I have to watch it again to see that scene again. You you might be right. I I thought I I think I read it, my initial thought was to read it more that he was just bothered that Graham made this tape, which he thinks which he thinks he's a problem with his wife.
SPEAKER_00Yes, he was bothered. And again, uh I love Cynthia's character so much because Ann freaks out and John freaks out, and her response to them is the same. You know, we you're freaking out. I made the tape, you know, this is what I wanted to do. Exactly. This is how it's affecting each of you. It's not affecting me.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh no, it's a good point. It's a good point. So let's so the to have right, they have this confrontation. And by the way, there's a couple things that happen that I think are really interesting. One is, as I mentioned, she takes her clothes off or takes her her white blouse off or uh shirt off, and you see sort of the Again, it's not like it's a dark side of her, but I think maybe like a different side of her when you see this black tank top that she's wearing. She um jumps into the car, she puts her hands on her on her head, and the next shot is with her hands on her head and she's at Graham's apartment. I love that. Love the that that decision. I read, by the way, that the reason he did this is because they were gonna have show her drive to Graham's, but hooking up the dolly was like very di involved, very expensive, and didn't want to go to all that trouble. But this was an inspired choice.
SPEAKER_00And it's really the only expression expressionistic shot in the film. Because she gets in the car and then she's there. And again, this is, you know, what is it who maybe it was Lumet who said that a director was someone who presides over accidents. And so yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, that was Lumet. And I think that's exactly what this is. And I love that choice. It just there's something about the decision that just I think sort of captures her sense of oh, what's the word? Not not loss, but her sense of um of dis disarray that she is in at that moment. Yes. I I think it's wonderfully captured. And it's, you know, it's again, like I said earlier, he makes so many small but just brilliant choices. Like, for example, we get to the second, she goes in to record this this video with uh with Graham. When John comes and watches the video, he starts watching the video and starts talking. You see her talking about sex, and then the and then it morphs into the actual recording. So not you're not watching the tape, you're seeing it happen in real in in in in the past, but in real time. And I just love that choice right there. He he just there's so many things like that he does in this film that are just of a director many who's had much more experience than Sodeber did. This is the first feature film he ever did. But the scene with the two of them is like the whole essence of the movie. It really is. And so I'm gonna put this on you. What is about that scene that speaks to you that you think is so it's so evocative about it?
SPEAKER_00Well, I guess the two things are one of which I already kind of suggested, but uh I'm happy to repeat it. But the two things are one is that she is really emerging as a a profoundly wise character. Absolutely. She starts to see through everything. But also I think we're with Graham in the movie. I think he's our guy. I think we kind of, at least, I mean, maybe he's just saying things about me, but admire his kind of bohemian lifestyle and and how he's taken this vow of honesty and he's you know living his life in a certain way. And but and and he even has this line where he says, I look at the three of you and I feel comparatively normal. One of my favorite lines of the movie.
SPEAKER_01I look around and see- I see John, I see Cynthia, I feel comparatively normal. Yes. Great line.
SPEAKER_00His character is also under you know, it's it's a it's that happening at a lower depth than is visible to us, but is under a tremendous amount of pressure. And we see it, I think, for the first time for real, when he's watching that crucial tape, that crucial tape of Cynthia, where suddenly he's a little emotionally overwhelmed by it. It's not a sexual thing. He kind of he looks unhappy, he he almost turns away, uh rolls over on the bed. It's something that I don't think is super obvious the first time you watch this movie, but if you look back at it over and over again, something is happening to Graham when he's watching the tape of Cynthia. That's interesting. I never caught that. That's a really interesting observation on your part. It's really I wish I I'm gonna go all Graham on you. Uh I Soderbergh said this in an interview. He said He said, I didn't know I didn't realize this when we were shooting. And then when we watched the dailies, I said, Wow, I can't believe what's going on in this moment. And it is Graham's character starting to break down in a strange way. And again, I think it's subtle enough that you don't notice it the first time you watch it, but if you revisit it, it's quite something. And that's what gets you. Did you want to jump in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I just no, I think what you said is all inter very interesting. I think it makes me want to rewatch it again for the eighth or ninth time. But one thing I am struck by in this conversation with with Ann is that in the movie Graham, uh, he's not the he he's not the uh the hero of the film. No. But we sympathize with him. Right? I mean, I think we see him as this honest character, and he is living a true life, true to his beliefs and true to what he thinks, while Anne is living a lie. Right. And what's so interesting about the scene is it completely turns the tables. And you realize, no, he's living the lie. Yes. Right? She was living a lie, but she has woken up to the reality of her of her marriage and you know, her husband, and to what how she feels about Graham, and she's saying these things, and he is actually the repressed one. And I love this moment where he talks about how he wants to like, you know, go to his old girlfriend Elizabeth and talk to her and say he had to get some sense of closure and like that. And she tells him that's pathetic. Yeah. And she's right, by the way. Which is a tough word. It's a tough word. A very tough word. Nobody wants to hear that pathetic. But she's a hundred percent correct in what she says to him. And I love the on her honesty. Right then and there, she's the one being honest and brutally honest. And I'll say that he needs to hear. And I think what's also interesting is like, you know, that that's like sort of the there's like two parts to the scene. There's that part to the scene, I think, where he she kind of like bursts his bubble a little bit and she does turn the camera on him. Yeah. Literally. Not like figuratively and literally turns the camera on him. And he is uncomfortable because now all of a sudden he is the one who has to express these intimate thoughts, and he can't do it.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I mean, this is the crucial scene, and there are several things that are going on, but two of the big ones are you know, her piercing, you know, his entire persona and the speech, it gets it gets worse from there, where he says, you know, that you can't you can't come back and give yourself a present of someone. You just knock on the door and do that. And then she goes on and says, and you know, and look at what you've become. You know, it's it's what would Elizabeth think of you? It is just a taking down of a character that is overwhelming and it is quite effective. But also what's going on there, she shatters him in a second way. So he was a jerk like John, and he was very much like John back in college. Yes. And he and he had this relationship. He says he's a pathological liar, he says. Yes. And also a in some way, we don't know exactly how, a somewhat abusive boyfriend. We don't know the specifics of it, but it was something that he fled and wanted to reinvent himself as a better person. And one of the things that that involved was radical honesty, which may be a good thing. One of the other things that involved was the withdrawal from sex, which I think is a less healthy thing, but you know, and it manifested itself with the tapes. But there's this interesting part. So if one thing she does in that conversation is shatter his entire reconstructed persona, but she also says, I'm leaving my husband because of you, and and it's because of what he has brought to their lives that he has he has come and disrupted everything. And his response is so telling, it's like this wasn't supposed to happen, right? It's not supposed to happen. He's spent if you're watching women on videotapes and that's your relationship with them, right? One of the things you're not doing is interfering. It's almost like Star Trek, the prime director, right? He's not interfering in the lives of others. And so somehow, by his presence, he has been this incredible disruptive force in the lives of others, which was one of the things he was trying to no longer be. And so it's both. It's it's the shattering of the persona he built up, but it's also this revelation that he actually has had this big effect on the lives of others that I think is also extremely unnerving to him.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr. Before we get to C Bid, I want to just mention one thing that happens before that where he he has this kind of slip of the tongue. And he says the way he means to say the way you and I are talking, just the way she and I are talking. Yes. And and immediately uh Ant picks up on this and says, Elizabeth. And and part of me feels like this is a cheap shot by the by the director. It's such an obvious thing. But you know, we think we talked about this offline, but uh it bothered me at some level, but you say for you it just works because you think the line is great. Right? Yeah. That's your take on it.
SPEAKER_00Bad about that though, because I think it is a written line, right? I mean time store Freud. And yet I it it nailed me, you know, I was nailed by the line and the read, you know. And so you know I'm just a cheap date, I guess. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's no, I think we've we've had conversations before. I think it's really funny like when we have moments in a movie where we just kind of like something feels like like you said it's a written line, or something feels like um a plot device. And you and and I think sometimes we get annoyed by it, sometimes we just kind of like we just go with it because the movie works so well. I I mean I I think it's not my favorite moment of the film, but I'm not gonna dwell on it because that scene is so wonderful, it's like it cannot, it can't detract from it, in my view. And also Spader's reaction to it. He, you know, we talked about how good he is in this movie. There's like an awkwardness to his character. I think what's interesting about Spader in this movie, you have to remember, and I'm sure you do, I don't know if all listeners do, James Spader was like the the like the dick of movies in the 80s, right? Remember him Pretty in Pink? Yes, yeah. He was the he was the real jerk to Molly Ringwald. Well, I think what else? There was another movie he, I think he had his, I think was he in um uh was it Weird Science? No, that's somebody else. I think it's a lot of people. A lot of these young people movies, and he's and he's the asshole. Yeah. He's the asshole. Yeah. And what I think is so interesting about this decision for his his performance in this in this movie is that he is so playing against type. There is a vulnerability to him that is uh is uh you know palpable, and I think is what makes the actor so compelling. And when you're to your point, when he says about this wasn't supposed to happen, I mean, it's almost like this incredibly sad moment. Like it you really do feel very at this moment, you know, that oh my God, like this is he's spent his entire life trying to avoid situation and now look what's happened. And you know, she says to him very, very, I think, uh clearly and very correctly, you know, this is you think this is you, you uh this is not my problem, this is your problem. Or you you've made the problem for everybody who walks in the door, everybody who talks to you, you've made your problem their problem. Man, the insightfulness of her character. It's just and it doesn't feel forced. It feels organic, like you can actually believe her saying this. I mean, I do think that there is that's what's so good about a performance, and also but the way this is written, you believe her when she says these things.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right, but I do want to pause for a second because we've there are four great performances in this movie, all four. And I think the McDowell performance, you know, soars. I think James Spader's performance is wonderful, but I just want to pause for a second and say, thinking about 70s, not seventies, James Spader, I just a big shout out to him for the way in which he f handled his career subsequent to it, as I think a 70s, not seventies actor, constantly seeking out challenging material, constantly seeking out material that other actors might have been afraid to take on. Sometimes that has led to some very odd choices. Uh but that's that's the consequence of being so willing to take risks with the parts that you choose. And so I just I I just want to give him a a little hat tip here as we're talking about this movie.
SPEAKER_01No, I think it's I I'm glad you said it because I think he's great, and uh and the whole final sort of moment of them together when she touches him, and I mean again, this is speaks to this. When she touches him, and it's the way it's shot, it's beautifully shot. She is standing, he is sitting, she touches his back, and you see like him gasp almost. You see his eyes close, you see like how much this is this means to him and how much he'd avoided this, but yet how much he actually needed it. I just love the choices he makes here. It's a beautiful moment, and I love also the decision where he is lying down on the couch and she takes his hand and touches her face with his hand, as if to say, you know, I'm not something you see on a screen. Right. I am right here. I'm a real person, and you are going to touch me. And I love that decision also. They didn't, I mean, they kiss. I think you see them kiss, or you see them about to kiss. But it's the it's the way he puts her, she puts his hand on her face as if to say, you know, this is something real that you have to c you have to deal with and confront.
SPEAKER_00It's a beautiful moment. And then, of course, we cut away. And once again, as someone who is on record as being very pro-sex in movies, it would have been a catastrophic choice to actually take that. Oh my god, and it would have ruined the movie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It would have ruined the movie. 100% would have ruined the movie. And then, of course, that this and then he gets up, he turns off the camera, a very fitting sort of metaphor, right? And then you see John, who's watching it. And I this is his line. So people hate Peter Gallagher for this movie, which to me speaks to how good he is in his movie. I think it's sometimes he in this movie, like people talk about how good Andy McDowell was, how good James Spader is. I know it's San Giacomo. But Peter Gallagher gets kind of the short end of the stick, and I think undeservedly, he plays a great heel. He really does. Yes. And I think he is he is so underappreciated in this movie. And he does this thing at the end that I am sort of sort of intrigued by. He walks out of the apartment where you just watch the tape, and you know, he spader's sitting on the sitting on the on the patio, and he says to him, I fucked Elizabeth. Yes. Right? Even before you guys are having problems. And he says, She was no saint. And now I now I think the the the understanding is like that is just a dick move on his part to get back at Graham for he believes sleeping with his wife. But part of me actually thinks he says this in order to help Graham. To say to him, you know, you have put Elizabeth on a pedestal for the last nine years. But the reality is she was not a saint. Now, maybe he did or didn't say, but I have no idea, knowing knowing John he probably did. But I feel like it's I think him saying it to Graham is almost as a way of helping Graham, of saying, like, stop mythologizing this woman. She wasn't all that. And, you know, I I don't think it's because of that, but the next scene, of course, is this wonderful. I mean, I'm curious what you think about this scene also where Spader goes in and destroys all the videotapes. It felt a little too on point, but I still appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00I'm curious what you think about it. So I have a s- I have a I think might be a minority reaction to the tape breaking, but I do want to pick up on your question about whether John is helping Graham. I agree with you that Graham learning this has to be liberating. You know, she was no saint. She you know, there there's another lie, the conventional lie in the movie, right? We've got two types of lies in this movie, is the lie that people tell themselves that I'm really interested in, but also people are lying to each other, you know, left and right, and that that comes up a lot uh, you know, with him being both a liar and a lawyer, another brilliant line in this movie. But I d I don't think John is in the helping people business. I I just don't see it as a conscious, I'm gonna do a solid for my homie here. Uh he's he's he's such a bad guy.
SPEAKER_01That's that's really fair point, but I actually the it uh in my like the last few watchings I did, I I watched it twice this week. I feel like there's more depth to his character than I think people give credit for. I think he's an insecure character. I think he's a guy who doesn't who who doesn't understand like what into how to be intimate with people. And like even on the scene where he's talking to Cynthia about like the tape, and like he's upset in part because I think he's upset that she recorded. I think it's upset for her a little bit too. Like, this is bad for you that you did this. Like, I I don't know. There's something about his character that makes me feel like there's more there than just this like cookie-cutter bad guy, heel character.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I I think it's a I think it's plausible. I just think it's a very generous interpretation, yeah, maybe a character choice because what he has just witnessed. We're talking about characters being torn down here. So Cynthia's not torn down. She's she's I think she's very much a similar character when we leave her than when we meet her. That's fine with me. I like her. Spader's character, totally torn down. Andy McDowell's character evolves, you know, we're talking like, you know, caterpillar to butterfly here. You know, this is this is huge. But but John Gallagher's character, his witnessing of Anne's tape exposes his failure as a husband and his utter failure as a husband. When she talks about the the absolute vacuousness of their intimate life, it's not, you know, it's not that she's putting him down on, you know, to put him down. It's that he's seeing for the first time what what an empty shell that marriage was. And so I think he's pretty upset when he when he comes up. Not not angry upset, but like beaten up. And so, yes, you can you can say that maybe this is a breakthrough moment for him. Uh and that's No, it's not.
SPEAKER_01It's not. It's not. It's not. Because you see, at the end of the movie, he goes through some bullshit about like my marriage would fall apart, but all I care about is my job. When the entire movie basically was blowing off his job and lost a big client because of it, actually.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell So I think those two things are true, which is it is liberating for Graham to learn this fact about Elizabeth. Couldn't have felt really great in the moment to learn this fact about Elizabeth, but it certainly is healthy for him. He had obviously built up this picture of her and their relationship that she was this kind of goddess type figure, and he treated her shabbily, and he's got to learn how to do better. But actually, she was like all, like they all were, which was pretty kind of shallow college kids lying and sleeping around with everybody like you do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, I think in a way, like he had put exactly, he put it on a pedestal and it was ridiculous. And look, you're right, he may be helping him and not not meaning to help him. But I mean, he's the way he's delivered, he's like trying to get back at him, it feels like, for what happened to um maybe the way the better way to look at it is that again, it helped Graham, but it wasn't it wasn't intended to do that.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr. But let me share my off-beat view of the of the breaking of the tapes. So on the one hand, of course, the breaking of the tapes is is just, you know, uh cathartic and it's over and he doesn't do that anymore. I I don't know. I kind of bought Graham's whole honesty thing. And when he was talking to Cynthia, you know, he said who would see the tapes, and he said, you know, I I promised them that nobody would see the tapes but me. And now it has this has happened also, which was never going to happen. Someone else has seen one of the tapes. Right. So the the vow has been broken. And so I always interpreted it, and it's a lame interpretation because I do think it's supposed to be this cathartic thing, that he cannot retain these tapes because he cannot be seen as the as the guardian of them that he promised the characters on the tape to be. I don't think I don't think that's what the movie was trying to say, but that's how I that's how I always interpreted what he did.
unknownTrevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01That is interesting. No, that's certainly possible. I could buy that. I mean, I do think that it's the only moment in the film that felt a little bit n non-organic, I guess I might say, for lack of a better way to put it. Uh but you know, I I'm I'm nitpicking, I'll be the first to acknowledge.
SPEAKER_00Um and he breaks the camera too, which he doesn't have to do for my purposes. Right. For the movie, he's got a he's moving beyond the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01I guess the thing is that when he turns off the video and ends the recording, the tape that she's making, that feels like it has the same effect. And that's why I didn't think I think you don't need the breaking of the tapes. Because when he turns off the camera and it goes to to snow, like that tells you that he re that he has he doesn't need that those kinds of conversations anymore. He doesn't need that to to fail intimacy. He has it with Anne. So it to me just felt unnecessary. Yeah. Uh I think is how I looked at it. Um but it obviously has a, you know, it it does feel like a cathartic moment. But again, I it's actually the one maybe false note I might say in the movie a little bit. And I think I said I mentioned that earlier, but I it is the one thing in the movie that I felt like it wasn't as true to Soderbergh's vision as as other stuff in the movie. Maybe it's a little more ostentatious, I guess. Um so the movie ends, but I want to mention one thing here because there's a there's a scene there where Ann goes to visit Cynthia in the bar, and it's clear that like she's a job now and she she's dressed a little bit differently. She's just and she's obviously making a peace offering. And there's a guy in the in the in the thing, uh, this guy named it's plays sort of a barfly. Yes. Who uh who I love, who has so many great lines in the movie. I just I I apparently the guy's name is Stephen Brill. Uh he is a he is he is actually the writer for all of the uh Mighty Ducks movies. Huh. And the final scene is.
SPEAKER_00Wait, before you go to the final scene, sorry, sorry. I want to say something that maybe it's too late for me to say, but I want to say it anyway because it links back with my Betty for Dan comment, which is Anne is not working because he had her quit her job. And when he sees Cynthia, he urges her to quit her job. And so you have this and so now at the end of the movie, we know Anne is working because she says, don't call between three and five, that's when I'm particularly busy. And so there is this very subtle little kind of undercurrent of feminism associated with the trajectory of these women's lives, and John, among his other many flaws, being a profoundly anti-feminist character.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Well, I you know, I'll just say I said earlier, I think Soderbergh, and there's something about his movies, I I I like I said, I am a huge fan of his. But one thing I think is interesting is he is he is so good with actresses, and you're right, there's almost like a I'm not gonna say he's a feminist director because that's really pushing it, but he does have a um uh a sensitivity to feminist issues that I think is a bit surprising, actually. Uh it is a bit unusual and it's actually notable, and I think you see this in a lot of his films. Um, but this especially, I mean, he uh he seems to understand women really friggin' well. I'm gonna tell you something. If I when I was 26, I understood women as well as he did. I my life would be a lot different, I have a feeling. Uh you know, I mean he really gets women in a way that I think is really compelling about about his movies, actually.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell And here you can see something you mentioned at the very beginning, the carnal knowledge, five Easy pieces, the behavior of the men toward the women in those movies. Yes. Again, links up with John's treatment of both of the women in this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's actually a good, really good point. Uh and so the final thing in the movie is is basically the two of them. Uh it's um it's Ann and Graham sitting outside of, I think it's his apartment, and he says, she says, I think it's gonna rain, and he laughs and says, It is raining. Yes. And um just for the record, before you impart too much meaning on that, apparently what happened is Soderbergh, uh, I guess McDowell had said she thought that they needed something at the end of the movie, the two of them together. And so they sat she they sat them down on this porch and just had them kind of ad-lib and just say whatever came to mind. And that was the that was as far as Soderbergh thought the best line they came up with. I I don't know. And any any clear thoughts on that line, or is it just a nice ending to them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I'm with Andy on this one. They almost certainly probably had to show them somehow together as the final image of the movie. And I think that I think that was the agenda there.
SPEAKER_01Did that bother you at all? I know it's a happy ending to the movie. I know we talked about this earlier. Like, I is it does you do you wish that it maybe had been something less the two of them being intimate and being happy with each other?
SPEAKER_00Much as I despise a happy ending, um, I think that is the resolution of this particular story.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I agree. I mean, I think the nice thing about that scene is that you see them holding hands and being intimate with each other and being real with each other. And maybe it's an an inside joke that they share. Like that is a that is an element of intimacy that you know every couple understands, right? That you have these kind of inside jokes the two of you share, and that's that's something that means a lot to them. So I I think I'm not sure what else to say. I this is just you said monumentally great, I said phenomenal. I think that's that's right. This is just an extraordinary movie, and I think you know, it's one of my fa I'm gonna say out there, it's one of my favorite movies. I love this movie. I think it is brilliant on so many levels.
SPEAKER_00It's it's really special, and again, it's it's rare and my my go-to line. It's it's what we want from the movies.
SPEAKER_01It's what we want from the movies. I think that's exactly right. It's what we want from the movies. That's a good way to uh to end this. So um so I don't usually do this, but I want to tell everyone what is coming next for that 70s movie podcast. We are going to be recording an episode this week with a special guest uh of the 1970 cult classic Tulane Blacktop. I'm telling you this because I'm guessing many of you have not seen this movie. I had not seen this movie until recently. Uh it is only available, I couldn't, I I it's not available on any streaming service. I found a version on the Internet Archive. I watched it there. Uh, it is very hard to find. So if you're going to listen for next week, you might want to just take a look, do a little homework, if you will, and listen, watch Tulane Blacktop. It's a very interesting movie. A lot to discuss there. Stars Warnotes, so I know is uh Jonathan is particularly fond of. I am uh also James Taylor and um and Dennis Wilson.
SPEAKER_00And if if you're not familiar with the movie, you will perhaps be encouraged by the fact that all the cool kids thought this was the greatest movie in the history of movies. That's right. It had the cover of Esquire. It was supposed to be the next essentially the next five easy pieces, the next big thing. You know, Monty Hellman was with that crowd. It didn't pan out exactly that way, but it did it did become this cult phenomenon. Right, right. Uh that's next week.
SPEAKER_01In the meantime, if you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, click that subscribe button, click the like button, share this with your friends, uh, shout out from the rooftops about how much you love that 70 to be podcast. And um until next week, we will uh we'll see you later. Alrighty, bye bye.