That 70s Movie Podcast
A look back at the films that defined cinema's greatest era - the 1970s!
That 70s Movie Podcast
Mean Streets
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week on "That '70s Movie Podcast," Jonathan and Michael prepare to atone for their sins with the 1973 Martin Scorsese classic, "Mean Streets."
While we both enjoyed the feel and craft of this movie, we had slightly mixed feelings about it. Michael saw it more as a vibe than a movie and felt it was largely a collection of vignettes organized around a plot—and Jonathan thought that is precisely what makes the film so great! Both of us had enormous praise for Scorsese's legacy as a director, with Jonathan describing "Mean Streets" as the ur-text of his extraordinary career. And, of course, we loved Harvey Keitel and Robert De Niro's breakout performances.
So sidle up to the jukebox, put your hand in the fire, and don't forget to pay your debts as you join us for this week's episode.
If you're enjoying the podcast, please take a moment to give us a thumbs up, leave a comment, or even buy us a cup of coffee.
Okay, I just come back to me the next week. Ten Hail Mary's channel father and whatever. You know the next week I'm gonna come back and you say just give me another ten hail marriage and another ten of thoughts. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. Those things don't mean anything to me. That just works. That may be okay for the other thing, but it just doesn't work for me. I mean, I just don't know, I just want to pay for my way. So I do my own penance of my own sins.
SPEAKER_04The pain of hell. The birth from a letter match increased a million times. Infinite. No, you don't fuck around with the infinite. There's no way you do that.
SPEAKER_01Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That 70s Movie Podcast. I'm your host, Michael A. Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirchner. Jonathan, how are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's the start of a new semester out here in Professor Land. So usually I say I'm hanging in there, but at this point, already it's Neil Young territory. I'm hanging on a limb.
SPEAKER_01Wow. That is that is rough. I'm sorry. It's so early for you to be saying that. Yes. Uh here in New York, it is still officially summer as school has not started yet. So I'm uh I'm still trying to uh you know enjoy the last days of summer before it turns to fall. And already the weather is uh is kind of autumnal right now. So we're getting there. So before we get into today's movie, uh I need to ask you first and foremost, Jonathan.
SPEAKER_00Have you seen anything good recently? Oh, I got a couple of things I wanted to mention. I'm not sure they all fall to the good category. Uh but and and two of them will inspire angry notes to the podcast, so I will apologize in advance. Okay. I've been uh the first one is I've been trying to kind of fill in some gaps in my 70s because who knows am I talking about them? So I finally caught up with Brian De Palma's legendary film, Carrie. And you know my mantras here. Respect the art, respect the artists. You know, we're just talking about movies, and you know, the policy is you gotta understand that these people are working hard, trying hard, and uh, you know, this movie sucked. Uh having said that, I was astonished at how bad this movie was. And every time I thought it was bad, it somehow managed to get worse. Having never seen it in my whole life, I figured it might not be my cup of tea, but nevertheless, I could see the skill on the screen, you know, uh on both sides of the screen. But really, I thought it was uh I mean, if it was built as a comedy, maybe. It's not. It's a horror film.
SPEAKER_01People love that movie. I know. Like pretty much most of the Topalma filmography. And there's a few movies that really just stood out as being dreadful. And to me, that was the one that was well, actually, there's two. There's that carry, and this will also get some letters to the podcast, but Scarface, which I thought was just an atrociously bad film. Uh The Fury is another one that I really hated as well. Um, in general, are you much of a De Palma fan?
SPEAKER_00Um, I when he's at his best, I can see the craft there. And there are several of his movies that I very much appreciate. I'm a huge advocate for his Casualties of War, which is, I think, is one of the best Vietnam films out there. And he's made several other pictures where I can say, yeah, this guy's a really gifted filmmaker. I really like the way in a movie like Couches of Poor that he moves the camera, and obviously he elicits performances that I appreciate. But in general, uh for me it's a it's more of an uneven track record.
SPEAKER_01You know, uh my biggest complaint after having watched all of these DePa Palmer films is that he is not an actor's director. Uh he doesn't really seem to care about acting, and he often um casts actors who just aren't very good. Um and actually, it's funny you mentioned Calegies of War. I thought that was one of his better films, but I don't know how a director could get a what I would just call a somewhat uneven performance from Sean Penn, which I feel like he did in that movie. I just don't think he's that I think he's very good. I don't think he's great, and I think at times he hates the scenery. Um I'm I'm going bad for the shaving scene. That's fine. I didn't like the accent. I didn't like I just thought in general it veered into caricature at times. Also, let's be honest, Michael J. Fox is not a lead, and I don't think that he really pulls off the lead role in that movie. And uh but I will say about De Palma, Mike.
SPEAKER_00But he's he's gotta be he's gotta be earnest and innocent. I think you know that's his that's his sweet spot, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01I it is his sweet spot. It does still doesn't mean that I found it all that affecting. I guess my thing with De Palma is like he's a really good stylist. He even in the bad movies, there's usually one or two scenes that are just you know kind of extraordinary. Like I think a movie like um uh Snake Eyes, a movie that he did with I think it was Nicolas Cage, yeah, uh Gary Sinise, just a ridiculous ending, a ridiculous plot for a movie. But there's two set pieces in that, in that film that are amazing. The opening boxing scenes at a casino, and then an overhead shot that he does. You know, a movie like Dress to Kill, which is another a film that again, the plot is absurd and it doesn't make a lot of sense. And but the art, the museum scene with Angie Dickinson is just a bravora set piece. It's phenomenal filmmaking.
SPEAKER_00I mean, even in his semi-ridiculous movies like Body Double, you can just see his mastery of the camera. Whereas Carrie, if you told me it was a made-for-TV movie, I would have said, yeah, of course. It's like it's it's flat and static and uninterestingly shot. It's it's not just stupid, it's not well done.
SPEAKER_01That's how I actually felt also about um about Scarface. I I will say one movie, the two moves that I did like the most were um Blowout, which I think is a brilliant movie. I think that's that's really even though, again, he has John Travolta as the lead, right? You know, not a great actor, but he actually pulls it off, I think, relatively well. Um, and uh Corlito's Way, which is uh is another excellent film. Uh oddly enough, I'm gonna say something that's very even more controversial here. One of my favorite of his movies, I'm surprised to be saying this, was his Mission Impossible. It's actually really good. Surprisingly enough, not um a franchise I'm a huge fan of, um, but I thought that was actually a pretty good movie. And I'll give you one more. I doubt you've even seen this one. It's uh called a 2002 film called Femme Fatale, starring uh Antonio Banderas and Rebecca Romaine Stamos. Again, not great actors, but a really effective movie and just some great shots in that film.
SPEAKER_00I I actually think I did see it, and I think I remember the stylization.
SPEAKER_01I remember thinking it it was a tad silly, but it's it's silly, but I actually found it to be one of his more compelling films. Uh but I will say this, just with a caveat. Every one of his films, the story makes almost always makes no sense whatsoever. And the acting is almost uniformly bad. And Body Double, by the way, is the best example of this because there is, it is a ludicrous story. There's some great shots, but my God is the acting bad in that movie. Craig Wasson, I think, is the guy who's the lead. He can't act. The woman who gets killed, she really can't act. Uh, it's just it I don't get it with De Palma. Like I said, he's a good stylist. He does great moments in films, great scenes in films. He doesn't make really great movies.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, just dumping on Carrie to the extent that I have is as far as I'm willing to go with being dismissive of someone who's who's who's had a whole career.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. That's fair. I mean, I think if we ever end up doing a De Palma film, we might I I might convince you to do blowouts. I think it's a great film. Um, but that's probably as far as we will go with Brian De Palma.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr. I did want to mention two others because having having annoyed the lovers of 70s movies by dumping on Carrie, I'm now gonna annoy all the cool kids by saying that we finally sat through Bella Tar, or as my friend a friend of the podcast says, his name is actually Tar Bella, uh, because uh he's he's Hungarian and that's how you would properly say his name. He's a legend of slow cinema. I've seen many of his films, I've enjoyed many of his films, and we finally sat down over three nights and watched his seven-plus hour Say Sentango, which is beloved by all of anybody who is serious about film. And I must say, we found it a little slow. You don't say. You don't say. Wow. But there are two or three tars that I just look at them and I say, wow, this is, you know, this is a uh a Titan of cinema. It's slow cinema, but I understand the genius at work here. I whereas I didn't, I mean, you know, there are obviously glimmers of greatness uh in Satan Tango, but uh it it uh it it didn't live up to its reputation, at least for me. Having offended, therefore, the general crowd and the cool crowd, let me say that returning again to David Thompson's book, A Sudden Flicker of Light, which was filling me with inspiration to see things I hadn't seen before, I finally caught up, I only watched TV 15 years after the fact with the limited run series Top of the Lake, uh Jane Campion. Oh yeah. Storming uh Elizabeth uh Moss. Uh terrific stuff, terrific pleasure. Really enjoyed it. I hadn't new to me. It probably it must be what, 15 years old at least? It's been it's been a while, but I did like that.
SPEAKER_01I remember that came out, I watched it. I remember thinking it was quite good. Uh speaking of you mentioned Tar, I'm just curious. What did you how did you feel about the uh movie a couple years ago? I think Todd Field directed it, uh Tar, starring Kate Blanchett. Oh. I liked that movie. I, you know, I have a funny story with that movie. I watched it and I was like, what the fuck was that? I I was like, I don't think I understood that at all. And I literally had never done this before. I said, I need to rewatch this film. And I immediately re you know, went back to the beginning and I watched it again, and I was like, wow, that's a pretty damn good film. I actually that's never happened to me before, but I really came out of it the second time. Like, that's that's some that's some interesting stuff right there. I actually think it's I mean, you know, Kate Blanchett is is a phenomenal actress. I think she's just amazing in that in that role. It's a really interesting film and one that I think really, I mean, as like my experience would suggest, lends itself to multiple viewings.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and daring. Uh and had some things to say and engage. I don't think it gave us easy answers. Also, not a a warm and cuddly protagonist, which as you know, I'm very fond of. Right. So uh not in the slightest, not in the slightest.
SPEAKER_01And a very, a very odd ending, but that if you th if you really dig into it makes makes actually a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_00Yes, although I I I I was a little sort taken aback by the ending.
SPEAKER_01The ending is very shocking, but it's it makes sense that she that she returns to her true love, which is music after having gotten caught up in the sort of celebrity of being a conductor. Like that's how I read it. It was this actually oddly a somewhat hopeful ending. Um, I want to mention a movie I saw this week that I know you are a big fan of uh The Double Life of Verenik by Christoph Kislowski. Kislawski, yeah. Um so I actually am very surprised to say I've never seen this film, which is weird because in the 90s I was a huge, huge fan of the uh red, white, and blue trilogy that he did. Um I thought those films were magnificent. And I remember at the time, I'm dating myself here, that I was like, I have to see Double Life Varique. And I remember actually renting the film from Blockbuster, true story, but then I forgot to watch it. And so charge all the fees. Yes, you gotta watch out for the late fee. Exactly. Uh I didn't get charged the rewind fee, didn't actually watch the film. So I saw the thing for the first time, and I have to say this was a magnificent, just extraordinary film that I loved, and I need to re-watch it again. And in fact, it got me to go back and re-watch the Three Colors trilogy. I rewatched Red. Boy, that's a great film, also. But I and it's interesting because you when I had this conversation offline, Irene Jacob, who's a star in both films, she's fantastic in both. I think she is simply amazing in Double Life of Vernik. Um, and I'm I'm curious you I'm you're, I know, a big fan of that movie. Or maybe not as much as uh other of Kislowski's films.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm an enormous fan of Kislowski. He is simply one of my favorite directors. I think he's a, you know, a singular voice in the history of cinema. Left us way too early in his 50s. Yes. And I love so many of his films. And what's weird is there's something about Fironik Faronique that, you know, I it's a great movie, and I watch it and I like it, and I appreciate it as a Kieslowski film, and it's it's masterful, but it's not in those top-shelf Kieslowski films where I'm sitting there in just awe of everything he's doing. And it's weird because there's I have no I have no negative things to say about it. I mean, it's clearly a great movie, but so I could think of ten films of his that just sing for me and and are I carry around with me. And and Veronique, for some reason, just never slipped into that category.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. You know, I I gotta say I loved it. I thought it was really um it was uh it was thematically rich. Uh I I watched with a friend of mine, we spent uh like a good hour afterwards just trying to decipher it and talk about what we saw. And uh, you know, it's a beautifully shot film, and I've never I've ever seen a film, not ever seen a film, but it's in the it's in it's in the top 10 or 15 films of in which the camera simply falls in love with the with an actress or or an actor. And in this movie, Irene Jacob. I I not many actors have actresses have looked as beautiful as she looks in this film, but it is it is intoxicating to to to sit through it. I loved it. Um okay, well, I guess we've gotten through what else we saw, but let's talk about what we are here for, which is to discuss the 1973 crime drama thriller, I guess. Mean streets. I never know how to try to these movies if that's the correct way to do it, but we'll just go with crime drama thriller. Uh directed by Martin Scorsese, our second Martin Scorsese film. First one, of course, was Taxi Driver. Screenplay by Martin Scorsese and Martick Martin. Am I pronounced that correctly? As far as I know, yes. Okay, good. Uh to any of Mr. Martin's uh family might be listening. I apologize I mispronounced his first name. Cinematography by Kent Wakeford, edited by Sidney Levin and Martin Scorsese. It stars Robert De Niro, Harvey Kaitel, David Proval, Amy Robinson, Richard Romanes, Cesar DeNova, Jeannie Bell, and David and Robert Carradine. It received no Oscar nominations. Um, it is not on any of the lists we should talk about. Indy Wyre's best movies of the 70s, not on the BFI list, not on the AFI list. Um and what is it about? Means Trees tells the story of four young men in New York's little Italy, and chaos ensues. Uh, I know that's a brief description, but I actually, the reason I did that does actually summarize some of my feelings about this movie. So, Jonathan, with that in mind, we come to the most important part of the podcast. Mean Streets. Is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie? Or is this a great movie?
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's a great movie. I can't believe you've been asking me.
SPEAKER_01Oh no. Oh, it is on right now. It is on. Because that the reason why John said that he's he's trying to trying to get it, get my goat a little bit here because he knows I don't feel the same way about this film. And the reason I described it so with such brevity in my description is that I actually think this movie is kind of just a collection of vignettes loosely oriented around a plot. And I will say this. I watched this movie so many times in the past week and a half because I wanted to be prepared. I see this movie a few years ago for the first time. I didn't love it. And I wanted to see, okay, maybe I missed something. I wanted to truly try to understand it. Why? Because it because people love this movie. It is, it is, there's rapturous um critiques of this movie, rapturous, I should say, there's rapturous um takes on this movie. I watched a bunch of times. I watched again today. I liked it more this last watch than I did the previous ones, but I have to say, I still don't love it. So tell me, what am I missing here, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_00Well, again, rule number one there are no other rules. The movie you like is the movie you like. So all I can do-I was I was trying to I was trying to tweak you with that statement. And you read right through it.
SPEAKER_01That's that's why that's why the rapport here is so good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I can tell you, you know, I find this movie just the thrilling introduction of a major new talent. And you have to remember that not you, I mean, everyone has to remember when this picture comes out, this is the the work of an unknown person in his 20s. We think of Scorsese now as an American institution, but this comes out of nowhere. It is, and it is what we want from the movies. It is small, it is distinct, it is relentlessly non-commercial, it is a deeply personal film, it is bracingly original in its style, with the moving movements of the camera, with the colors deployed, what would become a signature tracking shots of Scorsese, and it is of him and important to him, and it is so, again, bracingly original. I go back to 1973 and say, what movie made before this does this movie remind you of? And I don't think it does. I think it gestures toward the possibilities of a different style of cinema. And that that's that's no small thing. Now you can then say fairly, well, that doesn't tell you whether the movie's good or not. Uh yes, exactly. Exactly. Go ahead. Continue, please. But I'm so enraptured by that experience of seeing this alive and novel thing uh that you you called it a series of vignettes loosely wrapped around a plot. And and my reaction is, uh-huh. What's the problem? Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's what it is. But it does have a number of themes, and those themes I think were very important to Scorsese. I mean, there's so much going on here. You have the religiosity of this movie, and I think Ebert wrote in his review or in his great movies essay about the movie, you know, back in the early 60s, many people who practiced their Catholicism, they weren't kidding around. And the Scorsese that made this movie was raised in an environment that had a certain serious reverence for Catholicism and its practices. And Harvey Kaitel, the Scorsese stand-in character in this movie, is wrestling with his faith. I mean, he is a man of faith, but he's also a small-time gangster. You know, as as his girlfriend says to him when he when he name drops, you know, St. Francis of Assisi, she says, St. Francis of Assisi did not run numbers. You know, as far as I'm aware, that is true, actually.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Um, which is a pretty good line. But that that struggle within that character, uh, I think is very interesting. And then you have the pr- You said it was about four guys. Really, I think it's about the two of them mostly. Um, the Kaitel and and the um De Niro characters. Johnny, yes. Uh Charlie and Johnny Boy. And Johnny Boy. And I think, you know, that character is very annoying, but I think that a lot of people have had relationships like that in their lives, or at least in their youths, new people like Johnny Boy, who they found annoying but were somehow attracted to the charisma of them. Their relationship is extraordinarily close, but yet, you know, it is fraught with difficulty because Johnny Boy is unbearable. I mean, the movie also takes place in the milieu of Little Italy where Scorsese grew up, and you get a really nice, almost documentary feel for that environment, even though a lot of it was shot, you know, in sets in Los Angeles. Uh it has is it it talks about issues of kind of the double standards about women that the men of that time walked around with. It takes place in New York, which always works for me, a ton of glorious night-for-night shooting, and it has a lot of music. And again, you could say, well, that's common, but back then it was less common to use music in that way. And there's something Scorsese once said that was very important about the music in his films. In the context of this movie, he said, the music, I am almost reverent toward it. And again, the reverence comes in both with the church, but also with the music.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I need to, that's where I want to step in here because I think the one you didn't it's interesting you mentioned this earlier. This film kind of that kind of this film invents the needle drop in movies. Okay. And I'm actually amazed this is available, movies available on streaming platforms, because I the the music rights for this film, I've got I'm guessing in the early 70s it was not that expensive, but today it would cost an absolute fortune. Um, here are just a few of the okay, I won't go through all of them. In the first 10 minutes of the movie, we get Be My Baby by the Ronettes, Tell Me by the Rolling Stones, I Looked Away by Derek the Domino's, and perhaps most notably Jumping Jack Flash when we meet Johnny Boy, played Rob played by Robert Janeiro by the Rolling Stones. But we also get a ton of other songs, please, Mr. Postman, Pledging My Love by Johnny Ace, uh, Stepping Out by, I think it was Memphis Slim, uh, Florence by the Paragons, I Met Him on Sunday by the Sherrells. I mean, it is just a crazy amount of music. And I do actually, it's funny. When I this is one of the issues I had with the film. I feel like if I saw this in '73 when it came out, I would have been blown away by it. But in some respects, seeing it almost, you know, 50 years more than 50 years later, it doesn't feel as original because it has been copied by so many other films. I mean, it's kind of about Dirty Harry. Especially this fellow Scorsese, who Especially this guy named Marty Scorsese. He especially is a guy who copies everything from this film. And so, yes. So I think one of the issues I had with it is that it didn't kind of resonate with me in the way that it that it's interesting when I read a lot of these reviews of people who are just like, this is the most extraordinary uh uh um uh film experience I've ever had. Right. You know, this is just a a wholly original and new kind of film. Right. And I guess for me, having having seen so many imitations of this movie, Anna Scorsese's style, it doesn't feel as fresh. And that's maybe an unfair criticism, but that's kind of where I think I landed on this film.
SPEAKER_00No, I can I can fully respect and understand that because some things work better in their moment, and freshness is a big deal of that, and they and it's less obvious in in the future, and that happens to me often with movies. I feel that less in this movie, for me, the jumping jack flash, vignette, De Niro walking into the bar, the to the two women, one on either side of him, it's got it all. It's got the music, it's got the slow motion, it's got De Niro, it's got the heavy orange filter, it's got the tracking shot. I I can't, is it possible for me to describe the number of endorphins that were released in my brain during those 10 seconds?
SPEAKER_01You know what's what's funny about you said that is that I, for me, the moment that stood out was actually Kim's a few a few minutes earlier in the film when uh he plays Tell Me by the Rolling Stones and it tracks uh Kaitel sort of dancing through the bar, and then he gets up on stage and dances with um Jeannie Bell, uh, one of the black uh um trippers uh at the club is owned by Tony. And the it, you know, it should be clear, this movie about four friends. You're right, it's mostly about Charlie, played by Harvey Kaitel, and Johnny, played by Robert De Niro, but also features David Proval, who plays Tony. He owns the bar where they hang out, and Richard Romanes, who plays uh Mike, Michael, Mikey, uh, who's kind of a lone shark. And what when I mention about David Proval, he, of course, um, he's great in this film, but he is probably perhaps best known to contemporary viewers as Richie Apriel in season two of The Sopranos. So he just rewatched last week, and he is fantastic in that. I don't I actually don't understand. I feel like he should have had a bigger career, David Proval. I feel like he's actually a pretty good actor. Uh and uh I loved him in the Sopranos in this in that role. Um, so it sort of follows their exploits, and the movie begins with you meeting each of them. Yes. Uh Michael tries to sell these uh lenses that he stole, I'm guessing, and they're not lenses from Germany, they're adapters from Japan. So he kind of comes across as a schnook, if I if you will. Yes. Um then uh Johnny Boy, you meet him because he blows up a mailbox. So I don't know why, because just to be, I mean, pain in the ass. And then you meet uh, so you get to sense some sense of what Johnny's characters are like about, and then you see Charlie, and he is um wrestling with his faith, as you said. You see him talking about this in the opening uh monologue of the film, and then when he goes to church, uh not long after that. And Charlie is basically the he is the focal point of the movie. He is a low-level hood who works for his uncle, does collections. He's kind of a hood with a heart of gold. Is that a fair approximation of Charlie?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, heart of gold is uh a big one, but he he does have admirable qualities. He kind of wants to do the right thing. I mean, he does take his religion, that is, the idea of living a proper life uh very seriously. In fact, his his complaint with the church is that he's not adequately punished, right? We see him grumbling at the beginning, saying, Oh, they'll give me this for penance and that for penance, but really that's not going to change anything. And a lot of the movie, if you wanted to, you could interpret him as him almost searching for other ways to do penance. And we, you know, he also uh we appreciate his relationship with his girlfriend, Johnny Boy's cousin, played by Amy Robinson, Teresa, of course. Uh and you know, she's she's uh a good, a good woman. She's one of the better characters in the picture. And so he's a very appealing character. I think Heart of Gold might be might be stretching it, but he wants to do the right thing in the context of his setting.
SPEAKER_01I'm actually I'm almost I don't know if I'm gonna defend it, but first of all, this is a Mafia movie in which he, you know, he is a Mafia member, he collects for his uncle, he's not violent, uh, he's not even doesn't strong arm anybody. And uh he has this empathy for Johnny. I I wrote this down in my notes. I said Charlie cares more about Johnny than Johnny cares about Johnny. Yes. Um and it's interesting because I I think I think I stand by that because actually in the what's interesting is if you're jumping ahead, but the end of the movie, Johnny does something truly stupid that's going to lead to uh calamity. And um after he does it, Charlie's immediate response is okay, how do we protect you? And even Johnny's kind of like, you know, I screwed myself. I mean, I don't know what what you're gonna do about this. So I do think that he is somebody who is I I think what we have become inured to a sort of portrayal of Mafia members as them being heartless, them being violent. And he's not like that. He's not like that at all. In fact, I think I see more empathy from him and more um uh humanity from him that I see from other other portrayals of Mafia members.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right, but maybe the movie's a little kind to him in that regard. I mean, he does want to th ease into that restaurant management job. Uh there's uh there's a guy who runs a restaurant who's into his uncle, and you know, the the mob is gonna take over that restaurant, and and so he's gonna be the one who will probably manage that restaurant, and he's very, very concerned about doing anything that would upset his uncle, who who he really depends upon for his life's prospects. And so on the one hand, you know, he he is a mobster who we don't see harming people, but nevertheless, he greatly benefits from his association with presumably more powerful mobsters who whose fate he is allowing himself to be put in their hands.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. I mean, I I guess that's true, but uh even that scene with the restaurant owner, it's not, again, nonviolent, not strong. I mean, he the the the earth owner actually says, I can't pay back the loan, just take my restaurant. Yeah. Which which they they do eventually. Um so I it's for me, it's it's it's an interesting portrayal in that sense that he is he's not a a heavy, I guess is the only thing. But in fact, Michael, who plays, who's kind of the schnook, he's more of a heavy at or more tries to play the role of a heavy than certainly than um than Charlie does.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's right. And you know, he's a loan shark, and I guess, you know, they uh they often have to come down on people.
SPEAKER_01That's true. That is true. Uh so let's talk a little bit about De Niro in this movie. Now, this is basically De Niro's big sort of breakout role. Yeah. Uh this this performance as Johnny Boyd. And he is great, although I I will say I I gotta get in trouble again for saying this. Because he's he has such energy in this movie. And he does this opening, this monologue early in the film with him and Kaitel talking at the bar that is just a phenomenal scene and so much fun. And you can see the the as he's caught in the lie as he tries to explain away the fact that he's not paying uh Michael who he has all this money to. Um but but his character is such a a dick. I mean, I hate to put it in such in those terms, but he really is just it's it's unceasing how bad he is. There's not like a moment. Like I like you interestingly, you made this comparison to Mikey and Nikki. Yes. I thought it was interesting. I mean, even in that film, at least um uh Nikki at various points, you can understand his charm, understand his charisma, understand he he has moments when he shines. But there's none of that with Johnny. He's just kind of a jerk from beginning to end. And not just a jerk, he's so self-destructive. Everything he does digs a bigger hole and makes his situation worse.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell I think that's right. And I think that's why ultimately it's Kaitel's movie. I mean, I think the movie is about him because Johnny Boy's character is more kind of singularly drawn in that way. He is just a force of difficult annoyingness. Right. And and uh but whereas the Kaitel is the one who who wrestles with issues and has lots and lots of complicated feelings and complicated relationships. And this will give me the opportunity to dive into what I think is another thrilling thing about this movie that I didn't talk about, which is it has one of the greatest backstories in the history of cinema. Please. So when we get to 1972, Scorese has been around for a bit, but he's scuffling. He made a uh a feature film, came out in 1969 called Who's That Knocking, also with Harvey Keitel in the starring role, that can almost be seen as sort of a dress rehearsal uh for this particular movie, although it is more Cassavetti's inflected, but nevertheless, it touches on a lot of the same themes: Little Italy, the guys running around, getting into trouble, fighting over this and that, but it's a cohort and they all know each other. Uh you know, there's uh maybe low-level criminal activity going on. There's, of course, night for night New York shooting. There's profundity about the double standard uh about men and women and the values held by people at that time. And that is what makes, I think, this movie worth uh checking out, uh. Especially in the ending. It's quite remarkable, even though it is a much less mature film than Mean Streets. And there's some funny stories about this movie because it showed at the Chicago Film Festival, I think under the name I Call First, uh, and it couldn't get distribution. Uh, but someone came along and said, hey, if you put in a gratuitous sex scene in this movie, I'll distribute it. And so they did. It's a beautifully shot scene, uh, and it is equally exploitative of Harvey Kaitel and the woman they got solely for that one scene, shot to the doors the end. Very nice scene. And it got the movie was finally released and it got some nice notices, but Scorsese continues to scuffle around. He's hired to do the honeymoon killers, he's fired. He works on the Woodstock movie, that goes very well, and he does an exploitation picture for Roger Corman called Boxcar Bertha. And here's where John Cassavetes enters the building. Um, and the the story is famous, but maybe some of you haven't heard it, so I will repeat it. Please. Scores says he looks up to Cassavetes, as we all do, shows him his new film, Boxcar Bertha. I may be embellishing the story a bit by saying that at the end of the movie, Cassavetis comes up and gives him a big hug. That's my version of the story. But then he puts his hands on his shoulders and he says, You've just spent a year of your life making a piece of shit. Now go do something you believe in. Um, and that's when Scorsese dusts off his old screenplay, then called Season of the Witch. And then from that, we get Mean Streets and we get the entire career of Martin Scorsese. So this is like the err film of Scorsese in that regard.
SPEAKER_01And I think, you know, one thing I'll say that I did like about this film is it feels incredibly personal. And it's in and I know we're supposed to talk about the film that we're seeing and not the backstory, but the backstory does matter. This is a story in a lot of ways about about Martin Scorsese's upbringing. Yeah. His experience in growing up in New York. I mean, his mother, by the way, is briefly in this movie, as she is in many of his movies. She's very famously as a great scene in uh Goodfellows. Yeah. Um, but you know, she is um but he he you know, it feels like in some ways this movie is telling a story about Martin Scorsese's upbringing. And and his upbringing is Italian American, and his own particular issues caught between um uh his desire to be a filmmaker. And and if I remember correctly, he was he was trained to be a priest at one point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he was I don't know how close he came, but it was certainly a career path he seriously considered.
SPEAKER_01Right. And so he is somebody who is very, I think, torn by his religious faith, but also his desire to be an artist. And you and that is not that particular struggle on here, but you do see the struggle between for Charlie, between being what he does for a living, which is basically criminality, and also being a good Christian, or a good Catholic, I should say, actually. Um important distinction there. Um so I do think that's like sort of important. And um I by the way, I did watch uh Who's Who's That Um? Who's That Knocking? I did watch Who's That Knocking? And I will say that um it's funny you mentioned that sex scene because that's when the movie kind of lost me. I'm like, what is this doing in the movie? It didn't make a lot of sense to me. Getting it distribution. I now I understand. But it but but when I saw it, I was like, this doesn't make a lot of sense. Um so I I and and by the way, there is also to the film, there is a really rough, um, rough hewn kind of feel. I mentioned this to you at one point that there are so many continuity errors actually in this movie that I I kind of after a while I just stopped sort of writing them down. My favorite one is that when Johnny Boy blows up the mailbox, you know, he puts this bomb in the mailbox, he runs away, there's a guy walking behind the mailbox, and then when the blow the thing blows up and then the smoke clears and the guy is gone. I I I I guess I mean just you know, just I I hope hopefully didn't just disappear in the explosion. But yeah, he wasn't taken out by the explosion. I guess they just filmed it separately, and that guy didn't end up making, I guess he wasn't around the next time when they when they they did the blow, uh the aftermath of the of the of the blow up. There's um there's an odd scene where Charlie and Johnny are talking on the street and he asks about his his grandmother and is she gonna die? And it's in darkness when he asks the question, and then uh Charlie answers the question on a different street in daylight. Uh that was very odd. There's just a bunch of other little things like that where you can see these continuity errors, and I know that the time was criticized for that by some by some critics. I mean, I I don't have a real problem with it, but it it's actually to me, it's one of the things that gives the movies some charm. Um, because you can, it does feel like, in some ways, a labor of love. It feels like something that's very much like of the neighborhood as opposed to, you know, something that is cooked up in some Hollywood studio.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and and you know, my rule of thumb is we talk about the movies, not the backstory, but I do think it's relevant that the film is a personal film. So we don't have to dive too you know incredibly deeply into the backstory to say that there's a difference between a film in which a director has hired a script and uh handed a script and said, Okay, you're hired, now go direct this, as opposed to a script that had some powerful meaning for the person who made it. Those are two very different things. And you can have many directors make many great movies as directors for hire, but there is something particularly special uh when it's not simply the act of a director for hire. Right.
SPEAKER_01But I I I did want to ask you about this because I I made this comment before that it is a collection of vignettes. I actually read this great review. There were at the time people who are very critical um of this movie, and one of the, I think it was Richard Schickle in Time magazine who said one leaves the film with a sense of having endured a class in social anthropology rather than aesthetic experience, which I actually found not I reason I found that to be a reasonable critique of the movie. And there's two things in particular that jump out to me. Um the uh early on there's a scene well, first of all, the the De Niro monologue scene as a good instruction to Johnny. So that that does, I mean it's a little bit of a long scene, but it it may it it's organic, it makes sense. It's a way of explaining who Johnny is. But there's a scene later with Tony when they they go to the back of the bar and he shows them these tigers that I don't know how he he got he acquired them, but these tiger, and he crawls inside of the cage and he pets the tiger. And then um later there's another scene near the end of the film with a Vietnam vet and they they're having a little party for him and he freaks out, I guess having some kind of PTSD from his experiences in Vietnam. And I just felt like those scenes, and there's also another scene, which I think is actually a great scene as a said piece when they go to a pool hall to collect some money and the guy collecting money calls somebody a mook, and it's not even clear who the guy is, who they're calling a mook. He just kind of shows up in the scene, um, and there's a huge fight, and the fight actually is filmed really well. But those scene, but can you explain to me, maybe help me, from your perspective, understand what coheres all of these disparate scenes?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm not sure anything does. I mean, this movie Okay, okay, good no but but I do think the movie is episodic. And I do think the movie involves multiple slices of this life. And I do not think the movie is in a hurry to get from point A to point B. I mean, if the movie has a point A and a point B, it's establishing early that Johnny Boy owes Michael money. Yes. And then it gets to the point where it becomes clear that, and he ain't gonna pay him back. And that presents the final crisis of the movie. And so that's kind of the linear plot that the movie kind of hangs itself on. But the idea that every scene is then kind of lockstep, taking us along the crisis of Johnny's ability or inability to pay back his loan, that is definitely not what the movie is aspiring to do. The movie is walking us through a series of interactions with these characters. And, you know, in that sense, I guess it's closer to, you know, some another film movement that's Corsetti Revered, an Italian kind of neorealist sort of a thing, where you're just experiencing what these lives were like in these settings. And so you, yeah, you have to have the interest or, you know, or patience to go along with that sort of thing. But it's certainly not what you would call a plot-driven movie. No, plot schmitt.
SPEAKER_01For sure. And in fact, I think this is not a movie. I think it's a vibe. Uh-huh. And that really is kind of my take on this movie. It's not, it's really just kind of a feeling, a vibe that is, as you said, they there are these different moments in the film that are supposed to give you some sort of sense of these characters and a sense of the life they're living in their experience. I think for me, I didn't, I just there's two things. One is I didn't find any of the characters, except maybe Charlie, right, compelling enough that I cared. That was one issue that I had. And I also felt, I don't know, some of the stuff just distracted. Is it detracted or distracted? I'm not sure actually. It distracted me and it distracted from the film. It could be both. It distracted me and detracted from the film. I like and that Vietnam vet scene in particular, like, I just, I don't understand why it's in the film. I don't, and and maybe I'm missing something here that does some larger point here. It felt like a kind of commentary on the, you know, the experiences of people of soldiers maybe from from that neighborhood who'd gone to Vietnam and what they'd experienced, right? Because what happens is he's having this party and he's just sitting there and then randomly freaks out and attacks this woman who then Charlie takes into a back room and they have this dance. I it wasn't clear if they end up having sex, maybe, I'm not sure. It just is completely out of left field. And I don't know. For me, it it was, it, it, it, it, it made it hard for me to feel like this movie had a a string, uh, active tissue.
SPEAKER_00I found the vet scene the the piece that fit least obviously in the puzzle for me. And I assumed it really had I assumed A, that it was probably inspired by actual events, but that B, it had to do something to say about the relationship between the insularity of this Italian-American enclave uh in kind of lower Manhattan and America writ larger, and relation and ideas of patriotism and stuff like that. And you even see that you know as a sub-theme of The Godfather with Michael's military service. And so the way in which you're in an insular community, but you're also identifying in this kind of real Americana sort of a way. Like I said, that was the part of the piece of the puzzle that fit in, least obvious to me. But if I were to make the case for this movie, and I'm happy to do so, I would I would reinterpret what you said, or even reinterpret what I said, as I do see continuity across this movie, and what I will now, at the sitting here coming up with this as I speak, say that it is a Characters study entirely of Charlie, and that the movie, while episodic, is actually a series of episodes involving Charlie's relationship with a disparate set of characters, including the other principals, Johnny Boy, Michael, the guys at the bar, also his uncle, very importantly Teresa, who we haven't talked a lot about. But his relationship with her is, you know, so crucial for the movie. And there's a moment when they're in bed together, and I think she says, I love you, or something, and he kind of stops her and and and says, you know, hey, if I loved you, I wouldn't be here, right? This is the most I mean, he does love her, but it's it was the most concise articulation of the double standard of men at that time. Yes. Right? That that he wouldn't dare sleep with her if he actually thought that she was sort of wife material, because then what they would be doing was wrong. And so, you know, this goes back again to who's that who's that knocking, where they say that there are he Harvey Kaitel's character explains to a woman he's with that there are women, there are women and there are broads. And so kind of Teresa is kind of a tightrope walking on that because he does obviously have sincere feelings for her, but nevertheless, she tends to fall into the broad category, the the broader category of broad in that regard. So their relationship is complex. Again, I think the relationship with the uncle is interesting. And so for me, I could reinterpret this movie as a brewing crisis in Charlie's life, as the relationships that he's trying to manage and juggle become increasingly unsustainable as his relationship with Johnny becomes too problematic to be contained, and his relationship with Teresa threatens to undermine his relationship with his uncle, who we've already said he depends on for his livelihood. And this all converges toward the ending.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's interesting because one scene that jumped out to me that I I liked a lot, but I'm not sure how it fits in what you just said, is with this, the dancer, uh, what is her name? It's played, she's played by Jeannie Bell. And in the beginning of the film, he watches her, the camera lovingly shows her naked body. She's very beautiful. He talks about her being very beautiful. He says, uh, could I be with her? Right. He says, No, because she's black. Right. And that would be frowned upon among you know his his fellow uh Italian Americans. Right. And then later, and then that theme is kind of dropped. And then, like maybe two-thirds of into the film, he talks to her, says he'd like he's opening this new club, he'd like her to be maybe to join him there. I mean, it's it seems to me he's hitting on her. He wants to stay for her. He tells her to meet him somewhere. I think she says they want to go uh Chinese food. That's what she says. And he's in a cab and he goes to meet her and he sees her, and then he he you know, he basically calls an audible and says, I'm not gonna do this. And he tells cab driver very tellingly, he says, Take me back to where I came from.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right? Like I'm trying to escape my environment. Right. But no, I'm not gonna do that. But I'll be honest with you, that it doesn't feel to me like a key tension point in the movie.
SPEAKER_00No, but it it if I may be so both.
SPEAKER_01Before you even say it, I know that it gives you tells you more about Charlie's character. I get that.
SPEAKER_00But it's also another character with whom he's interacting. And so the story of the movie is a series of interactions with Charlie and some other character. And in each case, there's some sort of struggle going on. He's trying to keep Michael cool. He's trying to somehow contain Johnny Boy. He's trying to manage his relationship with Teresa. He's trying to please his uncle. And with this woman, um, he's very attracted to her, and yet he knows that's not allowed. And so he sets up this date for her, and as you say, you have that key line, take me back to where I came from. You have here the twofer, if anything, in my reading of the movie. You have his struggling interaction with a character, and we're learning about his character from that. And you also have, of course, you know, their attitudes about race and so and so forth. But you also have this core theme of the movie about the not just the rules of the neighborhood, but the insular uh nature of the neighborhood. We're talking about uh a handful of streets in Little Italy that is their entire world.
SPEAKER_01In fact, there's a wonderful scene uh uh after a shooting, which I want to talk about at the bar, where he and Johnny are walking around and he says, Hey, let's get some bread from my from my uncle's uh store. And they go, I I mean, to on some block near where near where they they hang out, and they find the bread that was delivered night before, and they grab some of the loaf of bread. I mean, this is that does speak to what you said, the insularity of this community. Um, but again, I don't I guess that that sense of struggle of whether he wants to be part of this community or not part of this community, I I don't feel that I mean struggle for Teresa, but I don't feel it's as much for him. Maybe it is, maybe I'm maybe I'm missing something here. I I didn't feel it much. There's something else I want to mention also. I mentioned the shooting in the bar, which is the one sort of violent really violent scene. No, that's not not the one violent, one of two really violent scenes in the movie. Again, not sure why it happens. Uh it's by the way, it's the Carradine brothers. Yes. Uh uh David and Robert. Yes. I'm not I don't know who the shooter is.
SPEAKER_00Don't know which one shoots which one, but they don't know shoots which inter-brother warfare.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh and I I I gotta say, for a guy gets shot, he is he's got a lot of moxie. Yes. Uh and they they leave, and then you get this really strange scene, which I want to get into this larger representation issue in this movie, where they they drive away and they pick up these two guys who have not been, I'd not seen them before in the movie, who are ostentatiously, well, at least one of which is ostentatiously gay. Yes. But this scene I don't understand, and also it does not let's say travel well 53 years later. But it is a rather, I thought, uh stereotypical and kind of gross depiction of a gay man in the 1970s.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, certainly. Uh i it is that that is all true. But uh I thought they were at in the bar. No, they weren't. I I if they were, I didn't notice it. I didn't notice it. And also, you know, the the I mean it's already 73, so maybe it's too late for this, but at least in the 60s, you know, the the village the the bars in the village were run by the mafia. And so there was this overlap between gay bars in the village and the kind of the mafia, and there was a lot of to-do with the police and all that. This is where kind of the the movements come from, you know, as we all know, the history. But yes, there's these stereotypically uh uh flamboyant, at least uh gay men who are in the car and they're uh verbally mistreated and finally kicked out of the car. And again, I you know, however unpleasant that was and possibly gratuitous and unnecessary, I suspect it was not inaccurate as a portrayal of things that happened at that time. No, I don't doubt that.
SPEAKER_01I just I'm not I'm just not sure why it's in the film. I mean, I I I guess that's that's the thing for me, it doesn't make a ton of sense. Now Right.
SPEAKER_00So wait, so I I think it's in the film to show the way in which all of the denizens of this environment need to pile into a car and get out of Dodge when we know the cops are about to show up. So that was I thought and they're kind of thrown together in that way. And I thought that was kind of interesting. Although I agree with you, we didn't there's nothing there that's necessary. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And this gets to something, a larger issue. We've talked about this. We talked about on Taxi Driver, whether Taxi Driver is a racist film. Right. And we agreed, I mean, we agreed. We we said, we think, well, this is just our opinion, others can disagree. We don't think it's a racist film. I think the characters are racist, but it's not a racist film. Right. This movie, um I gotta be honest with you, it to me, it feels like it is right on the line because the characters are definitely racist and they're homophobic. Yes. Uh not so much anti-Semitic, interestingly enough, because there's a lot of references to Jews in the movie, but they don't really say anything too awful about about the Jews.
SPEAKER_00I get that's Oh, they they they the Jewish, the female Jewish patron at the bar is is held out as a child. Oh, that's true. You know what you're wrong?
SPEAKER_01I forgot. That's right. They did. That's right. You're right. That that Tony stereotypes here. But the two Jewish women who come in uh with um with with Johnny Boy, you know, he just says he wants to he wants to sleep with them. He doesn't say anything like too gratuitous about them, uh except that they're Jewish. But I do have to think you have to say that every black character in this film is presented in negative light. And one there's a black cop who shakes down uh the guys at the pool hall after the fight. Um and there is, I think the one thing that really kind of jumped out to me is that Johnny Boy, I'm not right, Charlie, and Teresa go to a hotel and they're leaving the hotel and they they run into a, I guess, uh what's it, uh um uh cleaning woman, and they say, Oh, the room is ready, and she kind of gives them a flippant response. They only have two hands. And I I and Teresa kind of freaks out at her. I don't understand I guess that you could read this. I know that people have been their groups have been very cr critical, civil rights groups have been critical of this film. Uh you know, does this movie kind of skirt the line between racist characters and being a racist film?
SPEAKER_00For me, I didn't feel it because I thought you only I mean, I thought the race issue came up with Charlie's attraction to the dancer, um, and that it was forbidden because of the general racial attitudes of his cohort. But the fact that he could be so easily attracted to her and that I uh and came close to pursuing it, I think is not obviously coding the movie as a race movie, as it is rather acknowledging the racism of that cohort. Uh the cop scene, I didn't even I mean, I'm like I was like Stephen Colbert at that moment. I didn't see color. I mean, I thought that uh, you know, that was about cops, not about black people. You know, the cops you think the cops are there to restore order, but no, the cops are there to get paid off so that they won't cause you trouble. And I didn't think that was a a black-white thing. I thought, I mean, I thought he had a white partner who was with them, and he was more the senior. I think he was more the senior of the two, and so he was the one who would collect the pride. But I I think the point there was that cops aren't there to help you, cops are there to be paid off. And I don't think it had anything to do with with racial issues. And the hotel scene I thought was more fraught because it reminded us that there was a furtive element to their liaisons because they don't want people to know that they're having this relationship. And in fact, enormous friction emerges between Charlie and Johnny Boyd when Johnny Boy says, Oh, maybe I'll mention to your uncle that uh you know and so that so they come out of that room and there's a tremendous amount of tension, I think, between them.
SPEAKER_01No, there isn't actually. She's eating food off of one of like the uh the uh um what's it called, uh trays outside of the room. And she reach, she saw, she says to this woman, like, oh, right, we're we're we're done with the room, you can clean it up. And she gets this kind of like kind of flippant response. And I don't know, there is something that feels a little bit you're you yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I I I it's not a racist film, but it is sort of striking that the entire film there are just really negative descriptions. And there's also, I didn't mention this, there's also another scene later where Mike uh Mikey shows a picture of this woman he's dating, and and Tony says, Oh, I saw her kissing and I'm not gonna use the word. Um But there's a lot of that in the movie. And in and there's also some some some crude statements about Asian Americans, and you know, I this is something that's always in Scorsese's films.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I want to flip the I want to flip the script here. This is a movie about young Italian American men in their insular environment. Do you think they're portrayed nicely? I mean, what does the movie think about them?
SPEAKER_01I mean, No, I mean that's fair. That's fair. Although, you know, it's interesting. Yeah, that's although Tony is portrayed somewhat nicely as he as he caresses the the tiger and he's shown as being a person of great warmth. I just think, and this is something that we could talk about with Scorsese in general. There's a transgressive nature to his characters. And I think there are times when he appears to revel in that transgressiveness. And we talked about this before we go in the air. Movies of his we don't like as much. Right. And uh we mentioned, for example, Wolf of Wall Street, I think is the prime example of some of him reveling in the transgressive behavior of his characters. I think also I feel that way a little bit about Casino too. But can you talk a little bit about that? Because I do think there's something he sometimes just he pushes the line, and that's part of he does it in Taxi Driver, obviously, as well. Right.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Does he go too far and when he does that? I think you're talking about two separate things, so let me separate them out. Because the point I wanted to make is let's imagine, and this was possible because um Roger Corman offered to finance this film if it was all about black people. And so all the characters would have been black. And if he made this- I remember everybody heard this, yes. If he made this movie and you just made the entire movie the same, but all the characters are black, you would walk out of the movie, not you, one would walk out of the movie saying, Oh my god, I can't believe he's portraying black people in that way. But he's portraying Italian Americans in that way, and so it kind of blows off our back. And so that's my point is if you're going to go around saying, look at this portrayal, look at this portrayal, look at this portrayal, you have to also say, How are the protagonists in this movie being portrayed? And aside from Teresa, I don't think anybody comes across looking like a real prince, even though I do think we have identification and empathy with the struggles of Charlie. Now, your larger point, uh, I think is true of Scorsese, is that oftentimes he puts us in situations where he postures as being critical of the environment that he is portraying. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Exactly. And I think Wolf is the best example of this because it does strike me as not the world's biggest fan of the Wolf of Wall Street that he is enjoying himself a little bit there, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr. I agree. I agree. Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's like Wall Street porn to a certain extent, right? You have the opulence of the lifestyles and the partying, and I know you know we're supposed to be critical of it, but I know viewers of that movie who look at the lifestyle of those characters admirably. And so if it was if it was supposed to be a damning expose, mission was not accomplished with a certain subcohort of viewers.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I feel that way about Casino, also. I I really don't like that film. I know people love it, and I just think that it is it's like uh it's it's Goodfellas in Vegas, and I feel as though it is so hyper-violent, and in a way that again, it it almost seems to not revel in the violence of that film, but it just seems to um handle it uh in a way that I find a little bit off-putting. I mean, I think it's it's like he he got permission with Goodfellas to really just kind of let it all hang out. And in a way, that's what it feels like with Casino. And I the scene take over that really got me is the scene where where Joe Pesci's character, who's just irredeemably awful in the film. I mean, just an awful character, nowhere near as good as a character as Tommy in in Goodfellas, and he when he is when he is killed. And it is just a grotesque scene to watch, um, where he's forced to watch his own brother be murdered. Yes. Uh, and it's just it's disgusting. And I don't know why it's in. I don't I don't feel like I I needed to see that movie to to nothing I think positive came from that portrayal, or nothing that I needed to see was in that portrayal. I felt like in a way Scorsese wanted to just see how far he could push the envelope. Maybe that's being unfair, but that's how I read it.
SPEAKER_00I agree with you on the horrifying brutality of that scene, but I do think in that instance it kind of cuts both ways because speaking of casino, a movie I think I like a little more than you did, it is easy to get wrapped up uh in the glamour of the lifestyle in casino, uh I think. And so to confront us with those horrifying acts of brutality, I think at least cuts against the grain of, hey, wouldn't it be great to be a gangster in Las Vegas? Uh well, there's this side of it as well. And in that sense, the violence is really the brutality of the in-your-face consequential violence, which I agree with you. I don't need to watch, but nevertheless, it's certainly not a Wolf of Wall Street type thing where it's glamour- It's not glamorizing the violence.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's fair. I just think sometimes that he can't he can kind of push the envelope in ways that I don't always find as compelling. I guess.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right. I mean, I but if you want your filmmakers to push the envelope, then sometimes they're gonna push it in place. Sometimes they're gonna show it too far. Yeah, that we want to go.
SPEAKER_01The other one I'll just mention, since we're just doing a whole Super S thing here. I mean, I should say I love many of his movies. I'll get that in a second. Killers of the Flower Moon, another example of that movie I really didn't care for. And I do think that there is an almost like a violence porn to the way in the critical thing in the movie is that the the female protagonist, I cannot remember her name, she is basically poisoned. And the amount of time that is spent showing her suffering is so over the top. I just am like, why am I having to sit through this? It's not interesting or enjoyable or even that compelling, or even telling me that much about the characters. So I do think there's just that element. I'm not saying that happens in this film, but I think you what I what I try to get at here a little bit. I think you see so much of what makes Roshee such a great director in this film, but I think you can also see some things that sort of show how he he can, you know, not some of his excesses, but some of the things that maybe in films where I don't like as much that he's done, I think you see some of those flaws maybe somewhat in this movie as well. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm gonna linger. That's kind of how I I felt. And I should add, I love many Sword Havia films. I think we talked about, I mean, obviously Raging Bull and Goodfellas, Rushmore, right? Yeah. Two of the great two of the greatest films, uh, American films I think ever made. I think we agree on that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, uh yes, uh I will especially uh you know emphasize Raging Bull. I love Goodfellows, but but Raging Bull, I think, is just monumental.
SPEAKER_01It's monumental, I agree. They're both fantastic. Uh, obviously Taxi Driver. Um I After Hours, Age of Innocence, King of Comedy are three. And I mention those films because it to me highlights just how brilliant of a director Scorsese is because those are very different films from Mean Streets and Taxi Driver and Goodfellas. I mean, Age of Innocence is a period piece, King of Comedy, and I'm sure the best way to describe that. I mean, it's um it's uh yeah, I mean, it's basically a story about a a a crazy person, two crazy people actually. And then After Hours is kind of a shaggy dog comedy. Yeah. Right? And they all work because he's just a great filmmaker who obviously is a loves film and loves to make different kinds of movies.
SPEAKER_00And I also want to add two things to that list. Um he did a a short film called Life Lessons with Nick Nolte as his contribution to the triptych of films with Francis Ford Coppola, Woody Allen, uh, and and he did a movie called Life New York Stories or something like that. And I think Life Lessons is is one of his best films. It stars uh Nick Nolte and I think Rosanna Arquette. I think it's it's quite wonderful, and the camera work there is astonishing. And Nick Nolte's work, he's at the top of his game. I think he's an outstanding actor. And then I also do want to mention all of his many music documentaries. I want to trot out the I-word here. I think they're actually, and this is not a word I usually use as praise, important. Uh I I think I think his I think his reverence for the music meshed with his gifts as a filmmaker comes out in these many music documentaries that he's done that are just special and to be cherished.
SPEAKER_01Well, the three that you may come to mind are Shine a Light, They do with the Rolling Stones, No Direction Home, absolutely Dylan documentary. Which is, by the way, fantastic. And I I think as a Dylan fan, I learned a ton from actually watching that documentary. Um and then, of course, The Last Waltz, which is arguably the greatest concert film ever made.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that one's that one's not making sense. I'd say it's spectacular. And I and there are there are so many others though. I really I thought the George Harrison doc was really good. Oh, I never saw the George Harrison Doc. Living in a material world. I had a little panic because I thought that the documentary was ending very early in George's life, and then it said, you know, now go to disc two. I thought, oh, wait, that was the personality. But yeah, I recommend that uh very highly, the Harrison doc.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I mean, and I I, you know, I think we're getting a little far afield here, but it's kind of fun talking about Scorsese. But I again, like I said, I think you see let me focus on the positive. There's so much in this movie that you kind of you can see what I actually really enjoyed watching this movie is that I kind of came to understand how the Martin Scorsese that we know today came about. Yes. You're not gonna get that from Box Car Bertha. You're not gonna get that from uh uh um uh what's it called? The um uh what's um Alice? Um Alice doesn't live here anymore. Right, which I think actually, I as I said last week, I like that movie other than the ending, but I think it's really I think it's really well done. But I think this movie kind of shows when he focuses on personal issues, he focuses, frankly, I mean, let's be honest, on sort of his Italian American identity. Yeah. When he found sort of focuses on people on characters who are caught between Between um you know trying to be good, but also doing things that are bad. I mean, the sort of the the this kind of conflict in these characters, he really makes amazing films and really interesting movies.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And this is this is as I said very early. I I think this is the Ur text. Uh you it almost everything that would be, I think you can almost trace aspects of those to here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's right. You know, I've watched this movie a bunch of times. I think this is a really interesting movie. I think anybody who's a fan of Scorpio should watch it. Um I think anybody fan of 70s filmmaking should watch it. I mean, this is a movie, by the way, should we just say since we're talking about this is a 70s film podcast that could not have gotten made, you know, five, six years earlier. It is such an unusual film, you know, in that it is, as I as I described it and you sort of endorsed, a collection of vignettes loosely oriented on a plot, right? I mean, it's it's that kind of film doesn't get made. Um and it had trouble getting distribution even back then. Right, right. So the other thing about this thing I'll say too, I mean, I I uh while I see the artistry of it and I think there are elements of it I like, I just don't, I didn't, it just didn't grab me. This is what we talked about with Taxi Driver too. I I I recognize the brilliance of that movie. Right. It's just not a movie that like speaks to me, a movie that I felt any kind of emotional, as you would say, emotional connection to. Exactly. I didn't I didn't feel in this movie. Maybe I need to watch it one more time, maybe it'll come to me. But I I or maybe I need to wait a few years and watch it again. I didn't feel the sort of emotional connection to it. I mean, do you feel that, or is it more just that you see like this as a film that that, as you put as an Urtext for Understanding Scorsese?
SPEAKER_00I think it's a great movie. For me, I find it thrilling, but it's not one of my one of the movies that I go back to over and over and over again and watch again and again and again. I like it. I'm happy to see it now and then, but it it's not. It's not something in my in my personal kind of special canon of films. I I I stick with my my great my great that I gave it at the beginning, and and again, even more great, I think it's thrilling. There were so many times when I'm watching it and I'm like saying, wow, you know, this is this is so special. But it's not. No. I I would share the the absence of a personal emotional connection to it, other than almost witnessing, as I said earlier, the emergence of this talent just out of out of the blue.
SPEAKER_01So let's get to the la let's just let's finish up here at the end of the movie. Because the ending of the movie basically what happens is that um Mikey still is owed money. He Charlie gets him down to $2,000 to pay him off. It's clear that that De Niro has Johnny has no interest in paying him and isn't going to pay him. And there's a climactic scene in the bar where he basically calls him uh a jerk off and pulls a gun on him and tells him that he's not going to pay him. And he pulls him a schnook, not in so many words, which we have seen in the movie Mikey basically is.
SPEAKER_00Which, if I could just jump in here, raises two themes that were very important for the movie. You know, one is keeping your word, and the other is the respect among these peers. And he is just dumping on both of those things in one supernova of stupidity.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think that's a supernova of stupidity, is a good description of what he does. It's pretty awful the way he treats Mikey. And and it's and the thing is that Mikey is sort of part of this crew. And, you know, he and Tony run this run this little scam on these college kids who want or who want to get some money for fireworks early in the film. But he's basically shitting all over him. It's pretty awful. Yes. And again, I think what's interesting is that Charlie, who uh seems very committed to this community that he lives in, of this environment that he's part of, really should defend Mikey here, and he defends uh defends Johnny because he feels his text in him. I will be honest with you, one thing that I didn't quite buy, and I mentioned this earlier, I don't really buy Charlie's devotion to Johnny. I I I mean there is I will say this, there is one really wonderful moment in the film after they they're out, you know, walking the streets, and they come back and they're both they're both in their underwear and they're lying in bed together, which you don't do unless you're really close with some another man. I mean that is that is an unusual thing to see. But they they do that. So but nonetheless, I don't know that I feel that uh I completely buy Charlie's devotion to Johnny.
SPEAKER_00Um but so there are two ways you can go with this. One is you can just see them as virtual brothers and just accept it at face value. The other is, and this is not my thought, but this is just in reading up, you know, on the movie, there are those who argued that since Charlie can't find his proper salvation in church, what he's trying to do is somehow sacrifice himself on Johnny Boy's behalf and find his salvation that way. Yeah. And they spend a lot of time, you know, crucifying Charlie. They do that in uh Who's Who's That Knocking as well? This endless shooting of him in, you know, the various Christ-like poses. Yeah. That's a little painful for me, but nevertheless, that he he does he does see himself in that role.
SPEAKER_01I think that's right. I just, I mean, I think I would have I would have been easier to understand to buy if I if Johnny wasn't just so awful. So unbearable. Unbearably awful. Unbearable. Again, as I'll use the Mikey Nicky comparison again. John Cassavetti's as Nikki is at least, you know, there's something redeeming about him and charismatic. I don't feel that way about about uh Johnny. So anyway, so they they they leave. There's a great scene where he calls trees and says, we have to go, and she says, I want to come, and he goes, No, you're not gonna come. And the next shot is her in the middle seat of the car with them. And uh they're driving to Brooklyn, they don't know where they are. I mean, this plays the idea that they live in this four-block area, and once they get out of it, they're like in the jungle. And um, what happens? Mikey is has hired a hitman and they drive up to him, and uh the hitman shoots De Niro and eats him in.
SPEAKER_00And the hitman, come on, is Scorsese, of course. It's it's it's so, you know, he's doing it. Yes, it that is Scorsese. He's very young, which is maybe perhaps why you didn't recognize him. You know what? I did not I did not recognize that that was Scorsese. That is Scorsese, and as in taxi driver, he puts himself in the most interesting situations because not only is he a hitman, but he kisses his gun before he unloads the cigar. That I did not realize that was Scorsese. Yeah, Scorsese is the executor.
SPEAKER_01And by the way, also Scorsese, there's interesting, the interesting voiceovers with Charlie is Scorsese, and there's a really interesting one in the car where throughout the film Charlie is sort of has this internal monologue, and in the car, he does the internal monologue, and Teresa and Johnny Boy hear him and they make fun of him for it. I didn't quite get to what to make of it, but I thought it was sort of interesting. But okay, so he shoots him in the neck. Yes. He's bleeding, and then the car, uh which they borrowed from Tony, hits a fire hydrant. They uh um Charlie crawls out of the car, lands on his knees, as if he was sitting on a pew in church, if you will. Right, asking for salvation. And then Teresa gets dragged out of the car. Now, here's an interesting question. Do you think that any of these characters are dead at the end of the film?
SPEAKER_00So my original understanding, or not my original understanding, my original interpretation of what happened is that Charlie and Teresa survived, but that Johnny boy, who was uh shot in the neck and pretty bleeding profusely, pretty profusely. I assumed he died. But then I recently listened to some commentary scores as he was doing for the film, and he seemed to suggest that they all lived. And he's and he seemed to argue, or not seemed to argue, and he in turn argued from that point that that was worse. That if Johnny Boy just dies, all their problems are solved. But if he lives, then all their problems are still with them. That actually might have been Amy Robinson's observation. She did some commentary too on the disc guy hanging. I mean, Scorsese shared in this view or or by saying that what the price, what happened to them, the consequence that they bore was that they would be essentially extradited from this community as personas non-communicated. I think you mean ex excommunicated. Excommunicated, yes. Extradition is an entirely different thing. Totally different. That that that they but but but thrown out of the community, and that that was, you know, in some ways even worse than death. Aaron Ross Powell And why are they thrown out of the community? Because they left the community, because they tried to flee the community? Is that all of these dishonorable things will now come to light. I mean, the uncle now knows that he was that that Charlie was intimately affiliating with both Johnny Boy and Teresa. I mean, this is not good for Trevor Burrus. By the way, why is it bad that he is with Teresa? Because his uncle is an ignoramus who thinks that because Teresa has epilepsy that she's crazy in the head, because that's how people thought back then. And Johnny Boy, because, as he says more wisely, honorable men should associate with honorable men. And he can tell obviously that Johnny Boy is not an honorable man. And so here we have Charlie caught in a very, very, very compromised situation with both of these figures. And so I think his future with his uncle is very much in debt. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Fraught, you might say. He's not getting the restaurant. He's not getting the restaurant. And I think it will be - I mean, there will be some shunning. I mean, one of the common threads that works its way through the film is that everybody knows everybody. When he's having an argument with Teresa, like in the interior courtyard of an apartment building, you know, he starts to yell and somebody screams down at them, and you know, he says the moral equivalent of, sorry, Mrs. Moskowitz, you know, we'll take it inside because everybody does kind of know everybody. And I think that they've violated the ethos or the rules or the norms of the community in this action.
SPEAKER_01By the way, I've just said for the record, I love the I love the character of the uncle, who's the mafia boss of the of the neighborhood. He's very cool, very calm, very, very collected. And there's a great scene where he and Charlie are having a diner, and Mikey walks in to talk to him and he sort of signals to uh to Charlie. And the uncle sees him, he turns back, he says, Can he see we're talking? Like how dare he interrupt us and we're talking. Doesn't he know, doesn't he see us in having a conversation? What is he thinking? Um I I I sort of love that character actually. But yeah, I I I think I think that's an interesting way to look at the end of the movie. I mean, my assumption at the end of the film is that um is that Shawnee Boy probably is dead, although he does seem to walk away. Although, look, a guy gets shot like six times in the in the chest earlier in the film, and he's still able to like run out the the bar. So in this film, who knows? You never know, maybe us survive. Yeah. Um, I guess I sort of viewed it as if to suggest, and this maybe does tie into what I said earlier about the scene with Genie Bell, um, that he tries to leave the community and he tries to leave the neighborhood and he realizes he can't do it. He says, take me back. That trying to leave, and there's a whole thing about how they go on the Brooklyn Bridge, right? And they're in Brooklyn, they call it a jungle, they don't know where they are, that you cannot leave where you came from. That this is kind of where you are, where you are always meant to be. This is your community, your environment. And if you try to leave, you know, bad things are going to happen. You're gonna get shot in the someone's gonna get shot in the neck and you're gonna drive over a fire hydrant. Um, and I think there's something very telling to the to your interpretation. The last shot of the movie is back to the neighborhood and people closing the blinds on their windows as if to say you are excluded now. I wanted to say before I we finish up, the beginning of this movie, the home movies, which they sh which is which is done over Be My Baby by the room. That's a song that that Scores AT has used in, I think, uh other films and is a wonderful song, um, is a great opening that really sets the feel of this movie and does set this idea up that this is a movie about these four individuals, but especially Charlie, and his relationship to others in his community.
SPEAKER_00It's extremely well done and very efficient and and you know, very at the time novel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I know it's it's great. And it's something that I feel like Scorsese has done uh elements of in other films of his. Um so yeah, I you know, uh what can I say? I mean, I I watched this one a bunch of times. I think in the end I I could have settled on this film being maybe you know, I liked it more than I than I did initially, but I just don't love it. Uh but I think it's a really interesting film. I think it's a worthwhile film, and I think we agree that Martin Scorsese is one of the most important directors in American film history. And seeing his first really personal passion project like this and understanding sort of where he came from, or as you put it the Ur text, is really important.
SPEAKER_00Yes, my only wish is that he would make more small personal movies.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, you know, that's a great thing. I mean, I think one thing that's happened to Scorsese in the last couple of years is he makes these big bloated epic films that are way too long and uh uh I don't know uh And grasping at greatness. Yeah, that's a yes, thank you. I mean, I The Irishman really to me was a good example of that. I know people love that film. I really did didn't didn't care for that movie. I just thought it was really too long and and just I don't know, as you said, grasp of greatness. And I think I felt the same way Killers of the Flower Moon, a movie I just really didn't care for either. All right, there we go. I think we're done. Um so next week, and I'm gonna just put this out here, and I'm hoping that Jonathan will be okay with it. We haven't done a non-70s film in a while. I was thinking we should do the pledge next week. What do you think, Jonathan? Uh sure, why not? Yeah, okay. Uh so if you haven't seen that movie, it's it's it's directed by Sean Penn, stars Jack Nicholson. It is a phenomenal non-70s film. Check it out, join us before next episode. In the meantime, if you're enjoying the podcast, please leave a comment. Uh, give us a thumbs up, buy us a cup of coffee, and uh suggest us to your friends, recommend it. And uh until next week. I'll see you later. Bye-bye.