Good, Better, Best: Value Engineering Your Dental Equipment

Dental equipment specialist Ben Oliver joins the podcast to talk about the biggest mistakes dentists make when starting their practice, from design and timing to equipment selection. With 14 years of experience and over 200 build-outs, Ben offers an honest, no-fluff perspective on how to approach your startup budget and vision. Learn about the 'good, better, best' of dental equipment, the massive cost difference that customization creates, and why your mechanical room and sterilization center—not just your chairs—are the true heartbeat of your practice. Plus, get key insights into the critical timeline overlap that prevents you from paying rent on an unopened office, and how to avoid falling for social media trends that don't fit your location or budget.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the podcast from Dentist to De novo. I'm here today with Ben Oliver. I would say the one and only Ben Oliver, but it's probably a common name. There's maybe more than one. There's a lot, there's definitely more than one Jonathan Miller, but I'd love to for people to say the one and only Jonathan Miller. Even better. Now you've been in the equipment game for 14 years. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

14 years, yeah. Um right out of college. This is 2008 is when I actually started.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Don't have to age yourself, even though we were just talking about birthdays. Um but I appreciate you not only taking the time, um, but also you were the first equipment rep. Well, not one of the first. There's someone else I'm thinking of that also early on had a different perspective on the game that I noticed right away. And in general terms, what I appreciated about it, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on, is you've never changed that filter. No matter if you've changed equipment company or whatever you've done in your career, your lens and your approach has always been the same. And it's one that I've come to appreciate and respect because to be honest with you, I hesitated putting somebody on the podcast about equipment. Yeah. And the reason why is because I don't want anybody, I don't want you to come in here and plug a bunch of brands and stuff. Um, I do want to talk about realities. And I think the equipment game is one of those areas where dentists think they have it figured out. Heck, maybe even guys like me think I've got it all figured out some days. And I'm learning new stuff about it all the time. You even educated me on how the setups work a few months ago, and you're like, hey, there's dirt certain setups you can use to make a dollar go further, or to obviously spend a bunch of money. And I kind of was like, wow, that's like makes sense. But when I was thinking about it, it's well, I could get the backup cam and the nav and the sunroof, but I don't have to, and that car maybe is now more affordable, or if I add all that stuff, maybe less affordable.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

And so, first of all, thank you for bringing that into every scenario. And that's what I wanted to have you on so that there's an honest conversation about what really works and what doesn't work. And I think that people will watch this or listen to this and say, Well, yeah, that guy works for an equipment company, so of course he says XYZ, but the truth is is you need the equipment to do the dentistry.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

You need it. And you know, I always tell everybody, I'm not everybody's cup of tea. And you will probably tell some of your clients. So you'll have clients who say, you know what, Benaler's probably not the right choice because if you get your feelings hurt easily, maybe I'm not. Because to your point, like I I have switched companies, I I have learned new things, gotten new lines. My whole thought process is it's not about that, it's about the specific doctrine, the specific situation. And I'll give you my opinion based off of the 200 plus build-outs that I've done. Yeah, you might like it, you might not, but I'm gonna explain and educate and let you figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

So that's that's my my process.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

So in those projects, you've obviously seen a lot done a lot. Uh obviously we talked about the years you've been a part of it. Let's just start with with what I think is one of the more important questions, which is what's the biggest mistake these folks are making? Startup specific, mind you. What's the biggest mistake they're making in the equipment category when they approach their startup? And please don't say they're not buying enough equipment. Yeah, no, no. Definitely not seeing that.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Um couple things come in mind. The first, as the doctors get younger and younger, they focus more on what they what they're taking in from the internet, right? And I'm not saying the internet's wrong in a lot of ways. I'm not saying every Facebook group, Instagram group, you know, whatever it may be, is wrong. But what I am saying is whether it be their friend or their friend's friends that did a startup in Iowa, Georgia, New York, Miami, wherever it is, that's their one perspective in their specific region at that specific time. So that goes into things. They've also done that project one, maybe two, and you've got some people on the gram and everything, they've done it three times and now think that they're God's gift to the dental world. On the gram. Yeah. So that's that's one of the biggest mistakes is is listening to those that have only done it a very small amount of times in a different area that has no bearing on Southern California.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Because I know that you do nationwide, but for me, that is my world of Southern California, and we play a completely set of different rules, and we have to conform to those rules. Yep. Um, so that's one big mistake.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Um we'll call it keeping up with the Joneses. Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah. One big mistake. Yeah. Hey, my friend did it this way. Do you find though, then, if we take it one step further in that same vein, because I find that more often than not, my friend did it this way, and that usually results in my friend saved money by buying this from Tim Buck2, and they said it was great. And I'm like, well, they've been using it for three months. A long time for that to not go great.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Absolutely Absolutely right. That's one of the biggest things is I want you to ask your friend's perspective that's been out two, three, five years, not two, three, five months. Yes. Right? Okay. You're you're you're barely got patience in the door at that point. Got it. Um, two is the exact opposite spectrum is I want these doctors to dream, right? I want them to be excited about what they're doing and actually think about the equipment from a different lens. Because most of our doctors that are doing these startups, they're in Pacific Dental Services, they're the Western dentals, they're working associating at three, four locations. A lot of them are gonna be using equipment from the 80s, 90s, early 2000s. Yeah. And they say, Ben, you know what, it really isn't that important to me because I can work on anything. That's cool. But you're not homeless anymore.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Right? You're you're not homeless. This is your house, this is your opportunity to take a look at it and make it your your office, um, especially, especially in the operatory. Uh, there's a dentist that does a lot of aesthetic stuff called James Clem. Uh, his name's James Clem. And he always called it the clinical theater. Okay. Right. And I always that that I mean, I heard that like 10 years at like 27 and a half or whatever it was. Okay. And that really kind of stuck to me because it it truly is. It's it's their world. Um and they need their world to be comfortable and functional for them because the assistant's going to feel how the dentist feels, so is the patient. Okay. Right. So I want them to actually think about that. Um, and then so that's two. Third is actually think about the functionality. Um, and so too many people decide on a specific brand or specific style without understanding their own style. Meaning some people love rear delivery, some people on on the chair. Yeah. Um, some people like ceiling matter light, some people don't. Some people um actually want to do the uh technology as well as case presentation in a certain format. Yeah. All those things I need to know as an equipment specialist because that's going to limit the brands that may or may not be good for you.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

It also is going to help me understand how I need to design that operatory. Because if you tell me I like things one way, I might make it wider or deeper than another operatory. So I want to look at it from that perspective as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Um, you had said something in there uh specifically about design, and that leads me to timing, right? I find that in different parts of the world, we hear design build, we hear different things, and you still need architects and all that stuff, and that's probably another uh podcast episode for another day. Um But it's it's it's very well known. Whether no matter which equipment company you're talking to, I think for just about any any equipment company USA, they'll offer a design service. Yeah, the major ones are and lay a floor plan out. Uh some people call it a test fit, et cetera. Um but I think there's a misconception about the timing of all of it because I want to get you involved earlier with the design, of course, because I don't know if this space is even legit before I signed the lease, before whatever, and I in in in most equipment reps are up for that. I know you're up for that. You're kind of notorious, at least in this market, for showing up with your spray paint and your shoes that are the color the red, right? And they're just spraying the phone. Well, they're they're actually peak, pink and green from the spray brain. Fair enough, fair enough. And uh and so everybody kind of knows when you show up that paint's gonna start flying. Yeah. And it's a and it's a cool thing. Um but in that context, there's a timing that I don't know if doctors understand, like, okay, floor plan was done, but then when do I actually order equipment? What equipment is in that first order? Um talk to us a little bit about the timing of it all and maybe what the ideal time is.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah, the the ideal scenario is the fact that you know if you're a linear type of brain that focuses on one task at a time, yeah, startups can be a little difficult for you.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Um because you have to be able to overlap.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Very true.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Especially in the beginning, right? Yeah, yeah. Um it's not A to B to C, it's A, B, and C need to happen simultaneously so D, E and F can happen.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Um, so that's something that is really important. Um, so you're exactly right. I want to be brought in early. Umce you're narrowing down number of potential, like the broker's got two or three potential uh offices or spaces available. I do want to be brought in. Um whether that to be actually see it in person or I want to see CAD files, PDFs, because if you tell me I need 1700 square feet, you show me three spaces that are 1700 square feet, based on the shape, the design, the location, what type of building it is, based on that doctor's vision, one of those might be better than others. And I I I've been able to tell people that based off of the shape and what they want. So that's step one. So being brought in early, the equipment specialist needs to be brought in early for the design aspect of it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Two is a lot of people are like, well, wait a minute, let me interrupt you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Why not architect or some insert somebody else?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

So it depends on if you are going architect-driven process. So for those around the nation, I was actually just talking to one of the manufacturers that lives in um Colorado yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

And he didn't understand that in Southern California, 85 plus percent of our build-outs are design build. Right. Meaning there's no architect involved at all. That's right. Um, some of that is just based off of that's the way it's been done for a long time. Others, price constraints. Other times it's time constraints. Yes. Um, so if you do have an architect involved, um, then you're gonna get them then early.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

There's some national architects that still, they the doctor knows 100% they're gonna be working with a Joe architect or one of those. Um, and they'll still want me to do the space plan, the preliminary space plan. Yeah. Because it takes them time, it takes them money. Yeah. I'm free 99, right? You know, everybody, I mean that's everybody's local, right? I'm local.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Architect's not flying out, doing the thing, measuring the space. You're there, you're local, you're looking at it. I think there's also something to be said for I'm I'm more of a fan of you over architect from a time and price perspective. Yeah. That's just me on the record. I'm not saying I'm anti-architect at all. I think there's some variables at play. Um, if you own the building, I'm more favorable of an architect to value and you know, et cetera, investment, asset grows, all that. But if we're especially for renting and leasing the space, I'm more interested in, okay, time is money. And it's a lot less, uh, it's a lot more affordable, we'll say less expensive to go no architect, and it's a lot uh less time to bring you in floor plan to contractor, contractor to build. Let's go. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

It can be a three to six month difference, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah, exactly right. And so as I'm negotiating on the lease, and then I go, oh, I'm gonna bring an architect in, and then I I would tell you on timing where I see a lot of doctors get it wrong, is I'm not gonna start this process, or I'm gonna really rev up this process when I sign the lease. And oftentimes you're already late to the party by a lot. You're already too late in some cases. So I don't get you involved until then and I'm already uh behind. Um, but in that world of like architect or no architect, I would just say I'm more lean away from price and time and lean in if we're buying building and we have more time on our side and there's all some development and some other things to do.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

And startups startups are not you know conducive to the architect-driven process. Again, right. Not in every situation. I've done several that have. Yep. It's worked out well. Um, I also don't want to say that, you know, I think I do a really good job of space planning in the sense that it's going to function and flow properly. Yes, yes. I did, I am not our I've got a biology degree. Yes. I am not an interior designer. I won't pick colors, I won't do that. Yeah, yeah. You will see a difference between an architect finished product and not 100%. But everybody's first uh startup's a startup for a reason. It's called that for a reason. Yeah, right? Your first home that you bought probably isn't going to look like the one that you're gonna have in 10 to 15 years.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah, dream time, dream home. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, exactly. So um, you do have to overlap. A lot of times I tell my customers that by the time the ink is dry on that lease, not only do we need the design, we need to have at least narrow down the equipment. We don't need to know exact brands and all of that, but we do need to know what type of equipment because that affects everything.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

We also have needed to have contractors to the site, interview contractors, and sometimes even know who you're going with. You just gotta wait till the execution to get things rolling. Yeah. Because that's usually a two to three month process in most instances. That's free time. Yes. That's free time. And so that gets you way far ahead. So that's why the equipment specialist, we need to be there for the design and picking out the equipment and technology.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

So I would to echo that, I would say that's one of the number one things I think when I hear from doctors and say, well, my friend did this and it was awful. They had this bad experience. And one of those things that sounds awful is I had to start paying rent before I was open. And usually what that means is, well, you probably started the process too late, and you probably didn't realize what you had just said. A, B, and C have to get done, so then D E and F can happen. If you're just working on A and not B and C, you're already behind the eight ball. Um, and so I think that one of the biggest mistakes in the timeline is knowing how it's supposed to work. You know, it's it's uh as a parent myself, I make a lot of analyses to being a parent, right? But like how long and when am I supposed to sleep train? Because I wish it was day one and night one, but it's not. And then as I have two children, some of them sleep trained right away, easy. Some of them, we had a sleep regression, which I didn't even know was a thing until my second child. And I'm like, oh, we're back to the square one? How'd that happen? Well, yeah, it happens. So, you know, I think that just knowing the time, uh, not only the time when I say that, I mean how long it takes, how much energy it takes to get done, and then when were you supposed to start and by when should it end? You know, if you were to start the process and say, okay, what should be done in a week, that's a lot different than it should be done in a month. So if you didn't get it done the first week, that's okay. Yeah, it's gonna take us a month to do it. And or if it takes us a month and we're supposed to be done in a week, oh crap, we're supposed to be done in a week. So what happened?

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Um so I would tell you that not understanding when to bring you in and understanding the time economics of you plus contractor plus lease, plus all those things, plus the city that of course, permits and the whole deal.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah, yeah. And so that's I'd say that's one of the things that I hear the most on doctors that they don't fully understand is is my friend said they built their office in in in 12 weeks. Yeah. Did the project in 12 weeks. That was the construction.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

That was not the six months that led to the construction. And so in their mind, this, you know, I'm in say they're in June, they're like, oh man, I could possibly open in December.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, no. No, no, 100%. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Well, that also, though, means there's opportunity, right? If there's a mistake, there's also opportunity. The opportunity to get it right is start sooner. Yeah. Organize the team earlier, open the channels of communication earlier, and understand, hey, since I know roughly how long this lease negotiation is going to take, let me go get all this stuff done first or close to uh having it completed, and then I can hit the ground running, is what we all want to say. We want to hit the ground running, when I hit the ground running. Well, we think we're gonna hit the ground running until we go, okay, well, where's your contractor? I don't know. And one of the things with equipment, especially, is not only do you want to know how much you know the equipment factors that you brought up, but a lot of times so you know how much it costs. Because the bank's gonna go, oh, how much you spending here, Chief? We can't release any money until we know how much you're spending. Like, oh, I didn't even go talk to an equipment guy yet because I heard some bad things online and I wanted to wait till later. And it's like, well, you've just kind of messed things up.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Um, I also hear in that arena uh MEPs, right? And and and you guys deliver a set of MEPs based on more or less what the brand that they buy, or how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

So, first of all, definitely don't call it an MEP for us.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

It's not because I I got called one time to San Diego to sign as architect on file. And again, biology degree, I am not an architect because they used our set of plans. So you know, of the major distributors out there, um, most all of them, once you've decided finalize the layout and pick the equipment, and a lot of it is brand specific. Some of it is agnostic, it's just where it's going. It's like an 11-page, 12-page document that kind of go over the MEP related items as it pertains to the dental equipment. Right. Um, and that's what the contractor and or architect or the engineers need to create their own set. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Um, they need information from you before they can finalize their deal.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

And people miss that.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

People miss it, and then they wonder why from the preliminary bid to the actual bid, there's a hundred thousand dollar delta. Big gap. Big gap. Right? Yeah. Um, so that the construction delta, as well as to make it even a little bit more complicated, and I'm not sure if we'll get into it, is the interior design aspect of it. Right. So you need to determine basically what type of equipment that you got. Yep. And you also need to at least, if you don't know exactly what your finishes are, at least know the level of finish. Yeah. Right? To give the contractors something. I mean, you should know whether you're going to buy a new car if you're going with a Kia or a G-Wagon. Yeah. Or something in the or a Lexus in the middle. In the middle. Right? Yep. You should know that ball game in that ballpark. So we're going to at least tell the contractor this is what we have. Yep. Because that's that's the biggest issue, and that's actually why I created the Pinterest page, is because doctors were getting super, super frustrated that they would get their bid, they'd sign the contract, and then they go to design the front desk, and the contractor's like, well, I budgeted six grand for the front desk. This is 20. Yeah. That has nothing to do with equipment, right? But it does because if now that$25,000 now goes to that. Yeah. That just took out an operatory of equipment.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or took out the panel they were going to get, or certain certainly comb beam or scanner, or you name it. You name it.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

And so literally, that's when I started the Pinterest pages, not out of you know, me just trying to create all these ideas. It the doctor was so mad about this front desk that I was like, I've got to find a way to make it easier for them to communicate with each other. Yeah. Um, and that's that's when that whole thing and it can be.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

You started that probably a decade ago. You were the first person to see that I ever saw do that, and then I borrowed it or stole it, uh, the at least the idea, and said, Hey, docs, so so when I work with somebody, I do Pinterest page, and I do one step further where I give them uh basically we put everything in a PowerPoint presentation to deliver to contractors. So when they bid the process, they're going through, hey, reception, I want to look like this, and operatory like this, and stereo like this, and bathroom like this, and yada yada. And so, you know, we're we're choosing photos off Pinterest, of course, um, which is what I thought, you know, when you put that together, I thought, what a genius thing. Because to your point, most folks are getting frustrated there on the finished stuff. And then they come back to you and go, well, hey man, construction costs what it costs. Uh you know, it's 250 a square foot, it's 300 a square foot. What do you want me to do? Yeah, your your price then becomes a variable price. And so I gotta peel off an op of equipment, I gotta take out some of that nice tech I wanted, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And the bummer is, and I'm okay being on record with this, but nobody has ever agreed to a treatment plan or agreed that a dental office was cool because of the cabinetry. Right. Um, I think it needs to look nice, of course. Um, but like when you think about and I and don't get me wrong, I think that DSOs are the evil empire. That's why I'm focused on the private practitioner to start or buy their practice. And not all DSOs are terrible, but let's be honest, they would love if they could run us off the road in the private practice game, they would. And that's just how Amazon would run everybody out of business if they could, right? So um, but in that arena, what what I look at or or or how I got on that part of it was you know, the um the docs and the and the variable pricing and the DSOs of it, the DSOs don't spend that much money on finishes and fixtures. No, they spend money on chairs, they spend money on tech, not not great tech, but tech in general.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

They actually are now. Yeah, that's that's true. Yeah, they've realized it a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Um, but they don't typically spend money on nice high-end. You'll go into some of them and you know they're doing millions of dollars out of a location, and then you're like, well, this is linoleum floors. Who's putting linoleum floors in? Like this is a hospital. Patients typically don't give a rip. You know what I mean? If you make them feel comfortable, you're convenient, you take their insurance, you're in and out. And I and I hate to dumb it down, but I'm simply saying that that's the the bar is set pretty low. So if you can get the patient to overcome some of those things and see the value in your practice, I'm down to spend good money on finishes and fixtures. But we've got a balancing act. I thought your pension stuff was great for that.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

No, I appreciate that. And no, it kind of bit me in the butt a little bit because once you started seeing and uh have all these beautiful practices in there, and a lot of them aren't startups. So if you show somebody the buttercake, you're gonna order the buttercake. Yes. You know? Um so it kind of bit it bit me in the butt that way. However, it it's given us a good opportunity to say yes. We don't the DSOs don't spend it on it, but I still think that some of the interior designers or what people are doing are still able to elevate it. Yeah. But what we call value engineer. Yes. I want doctors, I want my, especially my startups, to understand the concept of value engineering to where you take Ben's Pinterest page of this front office and say, hey, contractor, this is the vision that I have. Let's put it into a startup budget. And you'd be pretty impressed with you making it look way more expensive than it actually is. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

And I think you should. If you are gonna be different than the DSOs, then look different.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

That's just look different, but there's ways to do it. But everything is about planning, right? So if if you have that conversation with the contractor first, you can get the beautiful office.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

You can get it. However, it's gonna be done a different way. Yeah. But at least it's been budgeted properly so we don't get that big$50,000 oops on the back end.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

So then again, another opportunity there. Opportunity in this case being if you plan everything right the first time, you can focus on nothing but growth. You don't have to go, oh crap, I didn't know there was a fifty thousand dollar oops coming. Uh now I don't get to grow as quickly as I thought because I had to spend a bunch of money in this arena. Yeah. Less money for marketing or less money for team or less money for all those other things, because I have to cover something that should have been thought about three or six months ago. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, when you look at let's go value engineering and the equipment game, what do you mean if we were to talk about that? Hey, Ben, I want bang for my buck stuff. Not necessarily brands, um, but is there anything as you look at the configuration of an office where doctors could either spend a little more to get a lot more value or spend a little less uh bang for their buck stuff?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, I'd say, you know, with everything in life in the consumer world, there's I I have a form that I created that's good, better, best, right? Okay, cool. Um, and it kind of breaks down the brands based off of that. Okay. Um, I'm I'm not one that's gonna shove one specific brand down somebody's throat. Do I have preferences of what I know works and is supported? 100%. Yeah. And I won't apologize for that, but I also don't want to have a conversation. Hi, my name's Ben, you have to get this. Yeah, yeah. Right? Here's a piece of Mercedes. Yeah, exactly. So it's not gonna happen. Yeah, um, my job is to go educate, go over what is good, what is better, what is best. Okay. So if a doctor is telling me, like Ben, I'm focused on technology. That is my focus, that's what I want. Yeah, we're gonna spend a lot more time and money and effort into that. And maybe we go to something more cost effective. That doesn't mean cheap. That doesn't, and I don't like I don't like selling things that I have to apologize for. Yeah. And chairs and units and lights are something that if you go down that rabbit hole of cheap, that will happen because everything looks good one one month to six months in. Yeah, yeah. It's three years down the road that it doesn't. But again, it's not to say that you have to have the creme de la creme, the top at the top, but it's doing that balancing act. So I I think for a lot of my startups, it's either let's go with something in the middle of the road, or if you say, Ben, I I do want this is the equipment that I'm used to and this is what I want. So, okay, we can certainly do that, but there are ways that we can get you into that equipment at a startup budget in a startup format, meaning a lot of it is modular. Oh, okay. So say you do three operatories and you say, I want I want the best of the best, right? Uh of brand. Yeah, yeah. Brand A, for example. Yes, great. Um let's get you that. But let's say let's pick literally choosing a specific touchpad, okay, an electric motor, okay, uh uh integrated scalar, the different types of options that you put on there can literally create a$10,000 to$20,000 delta on a single chair. Wow. So let's get you product A because it lasts, because it's durable, because you know what you're getting. Yes. However, let's do it in a format that we're not 15 years in. Yeah. Let's build it in that way. Or if not, there's product B in C and D that we can go to that I will fully support, my text can fully install and support, and we'll still get you that growth that you were trying to get.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Right, right, right. So we're literally talking about uh I do want the car, I know it's well made, engine's great, drives great, I'm gonna go with nav, with sunroof, with backup cam, with rain sensing wipers, or I'm not gonna go with any of that stuff because I don't need it. I know where I'm going, I don't need the nav. This is my wife, by the way. She does not really care about cars, um, but she only thing she wants is a backup camera. It's the only thing she wants. Now, a lot of times, depending upon brand, when you want backup camera, and they know they got you, you have to get the tech package, which comes with nav and sunroof and upgraded audio system. And she's like, But I don't want any of that stuff. Now, they don't typically pull it all out and say, well, we'll just give you the backup camera because they come from the factory that way. But I assume that that's kind of how it went with chairs. I didn't know you could say, no, no, no, I just want the$500 backup camera option, the rest of it leave off the car. That'd be kind of nice if I could do that. You're telling me I can do that in the chair game.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

100%. It's cool. Which is a beautiful thing, and that isn't the way it used to always be.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

All the brands are starting to do that. But the one thing I will caution doctors that it's a complete farce and a horrible mindset of Ben, you know what? I'm a startup, so right now I am gonna get the bottom of the barrel chair. And when I start making money, then I'll replace the chairs. Because you know how many times that's actually happened? Zero.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Or if it did, it's because it literally broke down two years in, they had to replace it. Yeah. Um, and that's just that's that's not the right mindset. You know, let's you can afford you the type of dentistry that you provide needs to reflect the office that you have. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

And it's hard to show that value add to patients if you haven't taken the opportunity to do that in your practice. You're trying to tell them that you're worth more and you're better than this, and you know, this is why maybe you don't take insurance or why you built extra for zirconia crowns or whatever it is, but you haven't really spent the extras to deliver that. There's so much of the experience, there's so much of the product that is experience-based. And that's where I think if we were having a marketing conversation where the big mistake is or the big miss is with doctors, in that the experience has to deliver. And oftentimes, and I know you have seen this a lot, because I've seen this a lot and you see more than I do, a lot of offices say, Well, we're different, or we're the whatever they say. We're like trying to be the different dental office or the different things, and then I walk in and the experience is relatively the same. I mean, not to be harsh, but there's a front desk and there's a chair, and there's a light, and there's a unit. And most patients will not know uh if that chair costs you 10,000 or 30,000 or whatever. But you as the dentist will know is it making my job easier? Am I stressed about it breaking? Is my back hurting because I can be ergonomic? Am I gonna lean this chair back and it's not gonna be able to get them back up? 100%, you know? Yeah. Um, but you're saying you're doing all these things, everything is different, but then it really isn't that different to them.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

No.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Um, and so I I think that the experience part of it is something they have to focus on, and that does come with, well, what the heck did you select to put in this office? Does that help deliver a better experience or not? Because if it's just kind of all the same ho hum, then the patient's gonna go, you're a nice doc, but like this is the same as what I went to down the street. So like 100%.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

And then the things that make a office tick and efficient are often the things that you don't see and it's not sexy, right? Um compressor. Like I was told by the guy that trained me 2007, 2000, 2008. Yes. Um, this might get cut, but uh he always told me, Ben, no stuck, no blow, no dentistry.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Okay, okay. Yeah, so I get it.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

The vacuum compressor is everything. Yes. It's the heartbeat of your practice. So you know, picking a cheap one of those or a sterilizer, which gets used all day, every day, yes, those are things that aren't sexy that the doctor wasn't trained on. Like in dental school, especially these startups that came out of dental school, you put the dirty instruments in the black hole, yeah, in the next black hole next to it, magical new instruments came out. Okay, that's how it works.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

That's how it worked, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

And so it's not like that now. Yeah. This is your office. So a lot of that money needs to be dedicated towards getting something quality when it comes to sterilization in the mechanical room because that is what makes the office tick.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

So let me rapid fire for a second. If we did value add or not, like where would you go save your money versus spend your money equipment-wise? You spend money on chairs, but you would save money on what? Or would you not?

SPEAKER_01 29:22

I it's so individualistic. Yeah. I mean, uh it definitely there's there's two to three brands of each area, sterilization mechanical, operatory equipment, okay, that depending on preferences and what their vision for their practice and what they're trying to accomplish with it is, yeah, that I can save, I can make that bar move 15 to 20 percent, which is a significant amount.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Because you've got to think is that after if the average startup spends anywhere from 150 to 200,000 on equipment, that's not a huge delta. Yeah. Um, we can get you where you needed to be. The bigger delta is the construction and all of that. Of course. Um But it's not it's not like, hey, get cheap X or get cheap Y. Okay. It's let's be smart and pick and choose the brands that get you there. Um also really rely on your equipment specialist and the relationships that they've built with those manufacturing partners to make that dollar go further.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

So is it better than how should a startup approach you? Because sometimes I find that I want startup doctors to be decisive, but if they come to you and say, Well, I need to have the best of everything, we all know that there is a budget buzzsaw coming because everybody has a budget. And at some point, they're either going to run into it or the bank's gonna call them and say something, or somebody's gonna raise their hand and go, ooh, you know what? I actually can't get all that stuff. Yeah, I don't know how I'm gonna afford all that stuff. Um, and so would you rather come like how do you want them to approach you? Would should they come to you with a here's all my equipment list, I already sourced it and help me find it, or should what should they do?

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Um They just don't have the knowledge of the equipment to actually source it and understand what this equipment what questions you need to ask for the right equipment.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Um have an understanding of what's important to you on the functionality of the equipment. Okay. Um come to me then, and then I've always taken the approach and it takes more time to do it this way, but um I always want to have them create uh give me the information for me to create a proposal that's the most ideal setup. Okay in perfect world. Yep, and then and then I can either notate subtract X dollars to do this or that, or I create one proposal perfectly ideal and a 1B proposal that is more of a little bit dumb down. Yeah, I mean it's it's it takes me twice the amount of time. Yes. However, um we know that buzz saw, like you said, is coming. Um that's not to say that proposal A is gonna be G Wagon and Hyundai. B is Kia Sorrento. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but there's that happy medium, and then we say, okay, well, in the ideal setting versus one B, there's a$30,000 delta. You as a consultant have a much better, broader understanding of what we have to be at. You say, hey, where do we where can we cut$20,000 where it's not going to affect the way that you practice dentistry?

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

And that's where that's where we take it. But working from the bottom up, let's go, let's then create me the cheapest possible option, then let's go up. Yeah. Does not work.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

It doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

So there's something though that as a takeaway, when talking to an equipment rep that isn't you, ask for if I can be so bold, and this is going to create some work for some reps from the country or that's nonsense. But you know, hey, I would like to say this is my ideal setup, but then I'd also like an alternative option that has a gap in pricing. Yeah. Because this way I at least I know at that point what I'm giving up. You know, uh as uh I've got the latest uh iPhone Air here because that was valuable to me. But um, again, to pick on my wife for a second because she's not here today, but she'll hear this. Um, you know, she doesn't really care about tech at all, as long as it works. And so she, well, why would you spend that kind of money on that and whatever? And I'm like, well, to me, it's a tool. I utilize it all day long, and mine was two years old. And I'm I swear to you, they have a they have a timer somewhere baked in the inside of these things that the battery starts to go.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

My wife's at that point right now, she's got that little thing that she has.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

It starts to zap. Um, but so in that same genre, you know, for her, she's like, I don't don't don't sell me the$1,500 iPhone or show me the$1500 one so I know what I'm giving up when I go to the$1,000 one.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

And you're and and I'm saying the same thing in equipment. Let's get the hey, here's ideal. This is$180,000,000,$200,000. Here's the one for$150. Let's see what the gap looks like, and if that gap is livable, manageable. Maybe you go, hey, yeah, I actually didn't want some of that other stuff anyway. Now come to think of it. I don't really need it today. I need it when I have you know more patience, more growth, more whatever.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

100%. And you know, it also gives them the opportunity to not have to kill their dreams. And if they want product A, say you can't do it because a lot of what these manufacturers have done is they've understood that as the prices have risen, maybe they're being priced out. So they're actually being a lot more competitive than we thought when it comes specifically to startups. Yes, yes. There's bundles and bundled and there's things out there. Absolutely. The top top three manufacturers all have startup bundles that that if you do that, it does bring it into the ballpark. Yeah. We can have the discussion.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

I'm always an advocate to find a way to get you three or four ops than to go down to two ops, right? For the budget. So when we're looking at the budget, I'm more of a stickler on no, no, no, no, no. Because the easiest thing to do is go, well, let's cut a chair. And sometimes the doctors will call me and go, well, it looks like I only have to, you know, we'll only be able to afford two chairs, let's cut a chair. No, well, let's look at this thing, let's get more granular if we have to, let's start swapping out brands if we have to, but let's keep three or four ops on this thing instead of just the easiest thing to do is go, oh, let's just cut, let's just cut an operatory. That's uh that's that doesn't take any thought. That doesn't take any, you're not really doing anything for them besides, oh, let's just go without for now. Yeah. Um, so I'm always more of an advocate of that. Three or four instead of just cut one, but let's just look at in that three or four. Are we doing some of this modular stuff we're talking about? Are we maybe I don't know if we're going without something else, but sometimes we're going out with something else on the construction side.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

You know, do we the$50,000 fish tank?

SPEAKER_02 35:09

$50,000 fish tank, right? Cabinetry can be a real son of a gun. And when they do all these built-ins, and you're, you know, I doctor's private office kills me because a doctor's private office with all the built-ins could be$10,000 right out of the gate. And like, oh my god, I had no idea. And I'm like, yeah, you really care about that dust that much? And most doctors go, no, I'll go to Ikea and get one for$500 and it'll be beautiful. Right. So let's do that and let's save ourselves$10,000. But I I usually oftentimes say say to doctors, it's the easiest way to dumb it down is what are you gonna cut? And I think this is true from start to finish. When you want to go look at spaces, and I think you saw the podcast with uh real estate folks on it.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah, yeah, what's up?

SPEAKER_02 35:44

So so in that scenario, there is no such thing as ideal. There is, hey, this is what's gonna work for you, but you're gonna have to make a concession. You're gonna have to concede on either drive time, exact location, was it retail space next to Whole Foods? No, it was retail space, but the Whole Foods across the street, you're in the other one. Or was it medical office building and the Whole Foods is still next door, but it's a really nice medical office building, and they gave you a great lease and they gave you great TIs. But again, you had to cut something out of your compromise. You have to compromise at all times.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yes. In in every facet of this build build out. That's the compromise is a dirty, like seems like a dirty term, but it's not.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah. Like, I'm thinking about my children right now, and when I tell them they have to compromise, they're like, I'm I feel like I'm losing. Yeah, yeah. You're not losing. Dad, I'm giving him the toy and I want the toy. What the hell is this? Compromise nonsense. I don't want to compromise.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

That's it's you're not losing.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

It's hard to say, yeah, but it's hard to say, hey, let's talk about your dream and then let's compromise, because I don't really want to compromise on my dream.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

You know, um, but that's what it takes to achieve the dream. Yeah. And that's what I think some people are forgetting. It takes a compromise. It takes a hey, here's what I'm willing to go without, either without for forever or without for now, in order to achieve the dream.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah. And sometimes we have to get a little bit tricky. Like I'm I'm a big proponent of startups, like a GP style startup, um, of having three, if four is a possibility, then four great. But three is like the magic number for me because it allows you to balance that. I've got some that want some of the finer things in life. And so I've actually gone down to what's called two and a half operatories. I think we actually, yeah, we actually worked one together. Yeah, two and a half, yeah. And because you gotta think, if you're if the first year and a half, like that third full operatory is is hopefully you're gonna get hygienists really quick.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yes, yes, you know, yeah, you're growing then for sure.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

100%. And so that's where you need that real third one. So, but if you're down to two operatories and you got somebody that just wants whitening, you just killed an entire chair for whitening, don't do that. But with a emergency that walks off 100%. But if you have a chair and an assistance package, yeah, we can do a lot. We can do post op, we can do consultations, we can do whitening, we can do invisalign, we can do whatever you want. Yeah. Um other than drill and fill. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

So that that's where it's we can also add the package later, and now that chair is fully functional. Exactly what we that exactly what we talked about. Module.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah. And most of the time when we say modular, it's like let's add this to the delivery unit, but in this case, it's let's add the whole damn deliver unit later. Yeah, yeah. Right? You know. But it's it's a compromise, yet it's a functional compromise, right? Okay. Um I don't know how you want to do it, but like the technology aspect, that's a whole other game. Yes, it is. Yes, it's a good idea. But that's a whole nother area of compromise and things that I think that need to be discussed more.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Tell me what you think about um 3D printing versus milling, because I think there's a version where 3D printing overtakes milling. And I'm not saying it will happen. I'm not saying it's a guarantee to happen. I'm saying that there's a lot of people that want to push the bounds of 3D printing. Now, I personally don't think 3D printing is there yet.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

It's 100% not there yet.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Um I don't know if it'll ever get there, like anything else in life. We're supposed to have flying cars by now, and I don't know if we'll ever get them. Um But tell me what Elon's gonna make a trillion dollars, so probably flying cars here pretty soon. Pretty soon. Um It'd be nice to just have self-driving cars that work without scaring you half to death. Um but if it's not 3D printing and milling, where do you see that tech world as far as like ooh, I there's some things I'm really like coming down the corridor. There's some things that I don't know if it's ever really gonna be all as cracked up to be.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah, I so when milling and printing, I I those are two separate categories for me still. Yeah. They truly are. I I'm actually a big proponent of of in-office milling because I mean if you send it out, I agree, um, you're still getting a milled crown. You know, that that's just that chip is selled.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Um there's something to say, well, I just don't want to do any of it. Well, now AI is generating the crown for you anyway. So there's getting to be less and less excuses to not do same-day dentistry.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Yeah, very true.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Um but milling and printing are two separate categories right now. Now there are like Sprint Ray Midas has their whole thing that they're doing now, but the materials haven't caught up yet. But I do believe that there is going to be a day to where the materials and the technology does catch up. It's not really the technology, it's the materials that haven't caught up.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

It takes you longer though to print and mill, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Yeah, it's it's it's a different workflow. Yeah. Um but things have gotten faster and faster and faster, just like every piece of technology. Yeah, I do see the day. And if you actually look at, I mean, the number one mill is Din Splice Rona, right? They've got their sector, guess what they also have? The prime print. Yeah. Guess where they're putting all their RD development right now? Right. Probably in the printing. Presence in 3D printing. Yeah, yeah. Right? That's that, so that kind of gives you a little bit of idea of where it's going, going. But I um when it comes to startups, like if you don't have a CT and a scanner, don't get a 3D printer. What are you gonna do? Print little baby Yodas and give them out to patients. Like that does you no good. Yeah, you know, but I I love 3D printing for several different reasons. It's also a very low barrier to entry as far as price point. Okay. I mean, you can get a good 3D printer now, you know, anywhere from$10,000 to$20,000 versus like Mills.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

You're gonna get anywhere from$50 to$100,000 for now.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

A good one. And I think that's what makes the 3D printing attractive, why some people want to push that more and say, well, it's pretty much there, it's somewhat there. And I hear both. I hear the materials aren't there yet. I hear some doctors like, uh, good enough. I I don't, I'm not the clinician, I don't know. Yeah, but I think because of the price point, they think, well, I want to try it, you know, like anything else. We've all been in a position where we bought something, like, well, I want to make it work, and like at the end of the day, it just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

It's it to me, it's just not there yet. Yeah. Um, I do see applications and a reason to buy 3D printers.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Is there a reason to get involved early from an adoption and learning curve standpoint, or do you think AI is just gonna come in and you'll hit a button and go?

SPEAKER_01 41:19

It's so easy now. There's no, I mean, and you gotta think if you're if you're really thinking about buying technology to actually truly utilize in three years, just buy it three years because it's gonna change so much. It's changed. I mean, think about like like two years ago the the hottest 3D printer was the Pro 55. Well, I had a doctor ask for it today, it's already discontinued. Like already.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Hey, my buddy got one of these three years ago.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

That's literally what happened, not even three years ago. Yeah, uh, yeah. Last year. Um and that's just that's technology for you. Yeah. Um, fair enough. But for me, technology is all about you can't diagnose what you can't see. And so for me, even as a startup, I think startups aren't appreciative enough of where the price point has gonna come down on technology that allows them.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Very true.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

I mean, when when I started selling CBCTs, the cheapest one was 115,000. I remember this, yeah. And the most expensive one was 230,000. Um now you've got these great brands that do these bundles that bundle the sensor, the X-ray, the 3D, uh sub 80. Like I mean, it's crazy. Yeah. Um and it's good technology. Um so I'm a huge proponent of that.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

I haven't thought about that, but you're spot on, man. Because I remember when I was in financing, we were financing just the machines, and you're like, dude, that's like as much as an office is. That's crazy. I can't believe somebody would spend the money on that because they are 150, 180, 200 plus. Um, and and we were financing them because they had to be financed at the time, and no one was touching them uh otherwise. So uh now that when you bring that up, I'm like, oh my gosh, one, I've been in the game for a long time. Yeah. This is how much that it hit me. But the other part is yeah, you're right, sub 80 for all of that. And it's all really good. Um yeah, it really does make you think, you know, where are we gonna be here in the near future? So then with a startup, if we're talking about we understand three chairs or two and a half, where am I putting my money in the tech side? Because I tell doctors, uh, to your point, you said you can't diagnose what you can't see. I still am a very, very big believer in the intra-oral camera. Very simple, very easy piece of technology that I want more intra-oral camera photos taken by any doctor I work with than I want them to be showing X-rays. I think you need the X-rays doctor for your own stuff and insurance companies on X-rays. But me as a patient, and I would just had my teeth cleaned last week, and they had one of the AIs, I won't say, overlay on the X-ray to show me, hey, there's some stuff here we want to look at, a little calculus buildup, et cetera. But even still, I'm looking at an X-ray, and it looks like a black and white TV to me. I have no idea what I'm looking at. A little uh, yeah, yeah, a little um, you know, colored dot popped up, and if they hovered over it, they're like, oh, a little calculus buildup here. Okay. That doesn't really do me any favors. If you show me, as I've had plenty of times before, an intra-oral camera photo, lower anteriors are going, hey, look, this is the buildup, and then you show me afterwards, it reinforces for me why I need to get my butt back in the door every six months. Because I'll remember that photo. For sure. Andor if I have a cracked tooth, an old amalgam filling, I'm gonna remember that how bad that looked on camera. I also might uh want to show my spouse because when I go home and say, Yeah, they told me I need about two grand worth of dental today, and she goes, Well, you're not in any pain, right? Well, what are you talking about? I can go, well, this is what it looks like, honey. And she might go, ooh, yeah, that looks bad. Yeah, otherwise, uh, I know she loves me a lot, but she'll go, if you're not any pain, what are we even talking about? Uh now let's go to Hawaii or let's go to Capra. That's where we're gonna spend that money. Okay, great. Same dollars, same dollars. Same dollars, same dollars. So I'm a big proponent of intraoral cameras. I know they're not the sexiest thing, I know they're not the most expensive thing, they're very affordable, but tell me what you're a big proponent of. It's like, hey, this is where a startup should invest their money. They got limited budget, but where should they invest?

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Well, I mean, so here's the cool part is most of the good intraoral scanners now have the cameras built into it. And not only that, is I'm a huge proponent of a new patient exam, regardless of how you bill it out, that's y'all's world. Yeah, yeah, is intraoral scan, a CT, four bite wings. If you do all of those, by the time that patient sits down in that chair, they're gonna have on the screen every bit of information, and the doctor has the ability to diagnose anything they need to from those images. Now, the cool thing about the interroll scanner having the photo detection is that, like, say they leave and you forgot to take that intraoral photo of this, you can go back to that scan. Good point, and now you've got that image. That's a good point. But you also don't have three intra roll scanners, right? So running around. So yes, I think it's a value to have the intra roll scanner that does that, but I also believe that 100% you have I'm I'm a big believer in photos and videos anyway, yeah. Um in my world, uh documenting my projects. Yeah. Um I I have a trouble with it from me, is you know, we've got intra-world cameras as an equipment specialist that are five, six thousand dollars for an intra world camera, and I'm like, I can't I can't get behind that.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Um it's hard to argue when they're like, well, I found this other one online and it's the same, and you're like, if not, yeah. I think at that point you're trying to sell the flat screen TV for 3,000 bucks, and you're like, but Black Friday one for 500. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

And is it gonna last as long as it is as good? Probably not, but does it get you to the endpoint, same endpoint? And a lot of times, yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

You know, so that that's where like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Totally agree. Totally agree. Okay, so I love that part though about the scanner because I didn't really think about that, but you're right. I have seen and heard some of them also have carries detection.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah. Um a lot of the new ones have carries detection built in, so great for people that don't want radiation. Yep, yep. Um, you've got the photos that you can get at any point, the AI and the same.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

I don't want radiation, but I got this glued to my head and my airpods in all day. I'm gonna grind you down on radiation. Yeah, we're in LA, baby.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

I've got I mean it's there's all sorts of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Um my gosh, yes, that's true. That's true. How do you feel about um somebody hit me with this the other day? How do you feel about uh what's the other thing out there that's um it's uh I know the name brand, but it's not uh it's not a Cavitron and it's not a piezo. I think it's a brand of Airflow? Yeah, the Airflow, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Yeah, so there's a Q there's a brand or EMS is uh is the brand. Okay. Hugh Friday has one. Uh guided biofilm therapy is what it is. Yes, GBT. I think it's amazing technology. I drink a lot of coffee and have a lot of staining because of that. And it I've had it used on me. It really does work.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Okay. I have not yet, and I need to. I was also pretty awesome. You know, it's it's a bit of an investment. It is some doctors are kind of in that same intra-oral scanner, uh, intra-oral camera category, uh, or or intra-oral camera that's five grand versus five hundred. It's well, you know, Cavitron still works pretty great. Yeah. Um, versus the guided biofilm, which is I don't I is there a range on those machines? Are they all bouncing?

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Anywhere, no, no, there's a big range, anywhere from ten to seventeen thousand dollars for the guided biofilm therapy camera units. Um listen, I I will say that it is a big investment. I've got a lot of startups that still do it. Yep that not only does it work, two, it's honestly a good marketing aspect of it from a marketing perspective, it works really well. And three, is every dentist I've ever met is awful at scaling teeth.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yes, very true.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

They're awful at it. And so if you can give them something to make them better at something that they're bad at, yeah, because for most of these new doctors, their first experience with that doctor is gonna be them scaling for that first year because they're the ones doing it. Yep. So if that doctor is putting them in pain, they're not coming back for the crown because if you can't even make my scrape my teeth and make it feel good, what are they gonna do when they stick that shot in my mouth?

SPEAKER_02 48:34

I've had a gentle hygienist and I've had a heavy and I've had a heavy-handed hygienist. I've been to that hygienist once and never back again. You know, it's a clean heavy handed film, man. Heavy-handed hygienist is bad. And I've also heard, I've been in offices and heard them say, Well, yeah, of course my gums are bleeding. You're just jamming me with whatever that thing was for the last 20 minutes. Yeah, I could taste the blood, of course they're bleeding, and you're trying to tell them that they've got perio, and they're going, yeah, yeah, right. Right. I got perio because you've been getting away at my gums.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

So, yeah, so I do see value in it. Now, the one thing that I will say is it's all about those discussions up front. What I don't want to do is the doctor's like, you know, I would really want a piezo and everything, so let's build three of those into all three of my deliveries. Well, they're$3,000 each to build in. So I've spent$9,000 on built-in ones, and then now I'm going to bring another$15,000 one in. Yeah, smart. So now I've I've spent$25,000 on scalars of my startup budget. You can't do both. Okay. Um but I I don't think that that's a waste of money.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Okay. Anything that you think is a waste of money.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

It doesn't have to be equipment, it can be whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Well, I I what I think is a waste is doctors not spending enough time on determining what brand or what brand software to use on technology. Because to what we talked about earlier is that all of these CTs, every single one of them on the marketplace, is affordable now. Okay. No matter what yes, there's always going to be that range, but they are all within the range of you being able to say yes to what's most important to you. They're all affordable. But first thing I do is I I guide my doctors and say, hey, can't diagnose what you can't see. Let's first pick based off of field of view how big and what do we need to see now, based off of what you're doing now. But also let's think a little bit farther out. Okay. What are you actually going to be doing in the future? Um, because you don't want to buy a CT that has a massive field of view that costs$40,000 because you think one day you're also going to do ortho in the office and you want to see here, here, right? Like and you end up not doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Because ortho moved in next door and you're like, well, okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Yeah, so you just completely so I don't I don't want you to buy and waste money on that. I also don't want you to say, well, I don't even place implants, Ben. I want an eight by eight field of view, this tiny little field of view, and I can get it down to$40,000. Well, that's a waste too, because nine times out of ten, you're gonna want a medium field of view. Okay. So for my average GP, I want them to get into that at least medium field of view. Don't go too big unless you are 100% know that you're going to need it. But then all of them, it's like Samsung versus iPhone, they all have good cameras now. The technology's good. Yeah. Um, let's pick off of the software. Okay. Because the differences in software between the SIDEXs, the DTX, the Romexis, the clever ones, um, there's some major differences. They're all okay. Some are better than others, and some are more tailored to the type of dentistry that they're doing. Um, so I want them to sit down and actually look at the software rather than being like, well, I can get this one for$3,000 less. I don't give a rip. If like patient experience, patients feel when something is smooth. Yeah. And if you pick the brand, the software that works best for the way that you practice dentistry, again, your assistant's gonna feel it, you're gonna feel it, the patient's gonna feel it, and you're gonna use it more. So that$3,000 that you saved when you were at day one means absolutely nothing for three years right now.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Yeah. Okay. So there there was I was thinking about a lot of things as you're giving that answer, which one would be if I can get shitty for a second, like a lot of reps don't talk like that. I think it I would tell you that it's because there's a I don't want to call it a laziness, but I would say that a lot of reps are just like, yeah, yeah, Doc, here's what you need. You need this. They don't ask the questions, they don't give them a form that says good, better, best. They don't talk about, well, what would you maybe want to do a few years from now? They're going, yeah, cool. You got a bank budget, you're a startup, here's your thing, cool. This is a startup packet. And I get the calls afterwards on like, well, can we go talk to someone else? I feel like they didn't really listen to me, they didn't really ask me any questions, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, and my typical MO is well, one, we can always go talk to someone else, but instead of adding another element to this, because you might just get the same, you know, but it'll get different. We got the same. Let's get them on the phone, let's talk through it. Let's maybe you can see a little bit of there is a method to your madness, even when you you know, even if it was here's a startup package, there is some of it which is I kind of know where the budget is. Uh, I kind of have an idea of what you might like, and or you may have said, here's where I worked, so I know what they buy, or here's where I went to dental school, I know what they have. So I'm trying to give you kind of what you're used to. So to give the equipment guys a break for a second, or the equipment reps a break for a second, I don't think it's really laziness, but I also don't find a lot that talk like you do. Is there any reason? Is it just time?

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Okay. It's it's harder. It's harder. I mean, uh, you know, everybody gets used to what they're doing. Um, and for me, like you have to take a step back and and realize what an effect that you're having on somebody's career, and this is the very beginning. And I take that seriously, and that's that's that's why I become the startup guy is just because you know, it's the tougher road to do my job and to make my money to do the startup because I have to teach 25 people a year, yeah, the whole process. Yeah, but it's just it's just you know, getting up in the morning, like I can get up in the morning knowing that I'm helping a new doctor, like getting up to sell a replacement compressor doesn't really do it for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Doesn't do much? You know, that's fair. So that's fair. Well, I would tell you then, if I played the part up that, hey, uh there's uh equipment reps, you know, being bad, uh, I think that also sometimes as a rep you kind of go, well, what's the point? Because the doctor's just gonna run out to Facebook and go, hey, what do I need? This guy or girl showed me all this stuff, blah, blah. And so they're sometimes their own worst enemy as well. 100%. Where you're kind of feeling like, well, why am I spending a lot of time educating them when they're just gonna run out to Facebook, ask all these random questions, get all these random answers, and then come back to me and go, Well, why don't I buy these chairs? They come from XYZ wherever in the world, and uh, why don't why don't we just buy those instead and you're you're gonna go, I just wasted a bunch of time.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

We just had a three-hour Zoom call on why. And you went in one and blew up. So it's not even one in and one out. It's like short focus, they went out and then Squirrel. Yeah, squirrel. Exactly, squirrel.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Okay, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Um I don't I don't know. And sometimes I, you know, not that I have a starter pack, but sometimes I I do probably know what's going to be the end result, but sometimes I think it's just as important for the doctor to discover that through these questions themselves rather than me just tell it to them. Okay. Right? Because there's a level of accountability to figure it out yourself and say, yes, this is the right decision, this is why.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Okay. Um then the next thing I thought about process again, but why is it something I see that bites a lot of doctors in the butt? I'm usually explaining this to them on the front end, but it can be out of sight, out of mind, and that is most equipment companies don't talk hand pieces until we get to the supplies conversation. Yeah. And hand pieces can add up quickly. They can. And supplies and hand pieces can be another 20, 30, 40k, depending upon again, as we talked about, the range of what you want. And all of a sudden they go, oh, well, I didn't account for that or whatever. Now, usually I'm accounting for that, and I'm holding some money back, and when I'm talking about budget demo saying, Yeah, but we got to save this for later when you do order supplies and hand pieces. Is that just because of the way the setup is where the territory reps sell the hand pieces? Is that just purely barking?

SPEAKER_01 55:59

That's that's that's purely why it's and and because uh for me, I don't have the knowledge base because it's always been in the the territory reps bag.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

They've got the expertise, they've got the knowledge, they've got the hand pieces. Okay, got it. For the hand pieces, now you know, part of my job is as it is with you, is that I will always say, hey, doc, this is this is our budget for core equipment. This is what the average doctor, based off of the type uh, you know, if if if they're going with electrics and this and that, I will increase that budget. I said, you're gonna on average spend between anywhere from twenty to forty thousand dollars on your startup merch order. Yeah. Based off of everything that you've told me so far, you're closer to the 40 than the 20. Okay. So let's budget for it. But that's that's the reality of it. There's not a great answer other than the fact that it's always been in their bag. Yeah. So they know about it, they have the relationships, yeah. So they do it. So can we as equipment specialists do it?

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Can you bring them in? I mean, anybody that's listening to this, if I would love to get the Territirect involved sooner. You know what I mean? And I don't know what the process of the protocol is. I may be making a very dumb statement based on how your world works.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

But I'm simply saying that that the doctors feel some type of way about that feeling, I don't want to say misled, but like, again, even if you brought it up in the beginning, it is out of sight, out of mind. I've been focusing on the construction project, and then we start talking about hiring and insurance credentialing and our marketing, and that, and then somebody shows up and goes, hey, I'm here to sell you all the other stuff. And even if I wanted to say, well, I don't really need that much gloves, cotton rolls, whatever, they're like, Well, you need hand pieces, right? And uh yeah, well, I don't haven't ordered those yet. No, you haven't, because I'm the person that sells them. They feel like, again, hate to say misled, but a little bit like, well, where you been, dude. For sure. Sometimes they're mad at the rep, sometimes they're mad at you, sometimes they're just more like, well, why the hell did anybody say? And they've even it's hard for people in my shoes or in your shoes to say, Well, we did when we first sat down six and a half, eight and a half months ago. They did bring it up, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Um I I think I think the good timeline is is once we've received permit and we're about to start construction, that's when they really needed to really dive deep into that. Okay. Now, depending on the rep. Of course, depending on the rep, I will get them involved because a lot of them are really good at what they do and they've done it hundred more than I have, and I want them involved. Other times it's like, listen, I I need to focus on the core equipment getting through the city and everything before you start talking about the difference between this goop and goo and this goop and goo. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, but I but I do think that they a lot of them do bring value, and I think sometimes we do end up bringing them in a little bit too late. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Um, thanks for being honest. But yeah, no, I just I wasn't sure because again, I you know, I don't know how it works. I do try and explain to doctors. Part of the process is those reps sell the hand pieces and for a few different reasons. One, it's hard to pay somebody a living wage just selling gloves and cotton rolls and resin composite and stuff. So they got to sell the hand pieces because those are a part of the a bigger ticket package. Um, and you know, the other piece of it is that they don't typically get involved, I think, because they there's this version of like, we don't really need me until you're about to open. And then it's just, but it's that surprise bill that comes up that they're like, oh, well, no one said, or I didn't know, or whatever. Um and it's hard to go back and go, well, we did talk about this six months ago, and they're like, well, I don't uh we did. I don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

It's it's it's it's one of those that it should happen. Does it happen? Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Is the ball in the reps court? Uh meaning like you tell them, hey, we got this account, we're gonna do the startup, we're gonna grade, and they say, Cool, tell me when you need me, and then you've obviously got other stuff going on, or is it more like, hey man, you go make the intro. You're an adult, a resourceful, you know, salesperson, connect with the doc, get yourself in there.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Depending on the doctor and depending on the rap. Okay, so it is. It will change depending on those two two things, right? On how how fast and how often I'm reminding them. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

So there's there's a reminder game in there. Okay. I might just start asking up front, hey, and who's the terror tarip? And then I can just run point on hey, by the way, Mr. TerraTurep, Mrs. TerrorTurep, we would love to meet you early, we would love to get you involved sooner. I do think there should be an accountability of like, and we've made an intro, and now you'll you got to put us on the calendar to follow up with us. For sure. You gotta put us on the calendar to check in with us. Because the other thing that can happen is we're Construction gets ahead of schedule. Things start going faster than we think. And then we go, Yeah, we need to order. And the rep goes, Well, we need to sit down and have lunch first. And we're going to give you a big fat catalog. And you're going to pick out a catalog. And the doctor's like, what the hell is this? And sometimes they say the F-word. What the hell is this? And it's like, Well, dude, you you kind of messed yourself up territory rep because now they're upset at you by bringing them this.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

It's more on the equipment specialist, I'll be honest. Okay. Okay. Because we should like to do that. We should be bringing them earlier. Okay. Okay. Okay. And something that I personally try to do is just how I'm not everybody's cup of tea. We have different territory, like usually within a very specific region. I've got three to five reps that can work that region that are there often. Yeah. I try to match the personality of doctor with that territory rep to make sure that it's going to gel. Because yes, ultimately I could have them just put together the goop and goo order and be along their way. They get paid on it. Great. See you later. But if done properly, there is some major value in building that relationship with the territory rep. So I want it to be a cohesive uh environment where that they can grow with each other. Okay. So I don't want to just say, oh, you know, Billy gave me a lead for a CT, now I owe him two new offices. So he lives two hours away from the build-out, but he might live in San Clumini, but he's going out to UCAIP but a you know services.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

And it's not a situation where you you get to kind of pick and choose, as you said. There isn't a version of like uh this is your team. You gotta pick from one of these three people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

Sometimes. Sometimes it just depends on the distributor. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:31

I'm just trying to get a system on my side of my process so I can say, hey, this is how it works. The fault of my side being, well, yeah, that's true for other distributor crews, but not our crew. And I'm like, oh crap, well, then how does your crew work? So that's that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

I've worked with a couple distributors, and so they all were they would they work a little bit differently. Yeah, yeah, no, fair enough. Fair enough. I get it. I get it. So yeah, but that that is something that the whole equipment specialist world could get better at is when they involved the territory up.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

Okay. Um I did have a rapid fire question for you on buyers. Buyers, okay, yeah. Yes, buying your first practice. I find that equipment is still very, very important. Um, and I find that you're taking over that equipment and it might be 20 years old. And I had somebody recently look at a practice, and the the vacuum compressor was literally like Frankenstein duct taped together and zip tied up, and we need a new one. And we knew we need to get a new one because an equipment person look at it. We take a look at everything. We need to get a new one. It's 20 grand to get both set up. Uh, seller's like, well, how do you figure? I've been using that for years. It's like, well, that's kind of the point, buddy. You've been using it for years.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

And and now you're down to two days a week, exactly not getting reps. Exactly, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

And and and heaven forbid, we do buy it. I mean, if you were test driving a car and the check engine light comes on, you're going, hey, we need to figure out why this is on, and somebody needs to fix it to make sure it's not going to come on when I drive off the lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

And and honestly, like I literally had Nick, he's my project manager. He I had him actually go do one at 5 30 this morning because it always has to be before Sally Sue gets there in the morning or after. Like it's it's tough to do these evaluations. Um, but it's exactly what it's expected. It's like, what do you want me to really tell you in the fact that it is 30-year-old equipment that's past life expectancy?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Is there anything they should look at as they take over that practice? Should they be looking at, like, look, because it's hard. There's a bias in like, well, of course, Ben's gonna come in and tell me I need to buy new chairs because he gets commissioned selling me chairs. Um, you know, let's say that that's not true. Let's pretend you didn't get it, make any money for selling anything. You might still tell them, one, you need chairs, or you might say, no, these chairs are halfway decent. Doesn't mean they won't break down tomorrow. Yeah. I don't know. Um, but where would you tell them to focus on? Would it be on chairs? Would it be on vacu compressor? Would it be on tech?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Would it be on the I I just think they need to have eyes wide open. So, you know, what I would talk to Nick this morning after you did the evaluation is is okay, are we in poor, okay, or good condition for these different areas? And what that allows me to do is give the doctor, I'm not gonna give them, okay, this is how much this equipment's worth.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

Of course. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

That I mean, it's it's it's not it's it's worth the value of the fact that it's already in there. Yeah. That's the only value that this thing has. And or Hank Schroeder is gonna give you$37 for the entire office. Yes, yes. Um, but I say, okay, it's good, better, best. This based off of the brand of equipment, how old it is, and how well the office took care of it, I have a one, three, five-year plan. Okay. Is this 100% accurate all the time? No, but you know, based off of okay, you had 8X, it's it's 25 years old, but it's 8 EC. So it could, it could literally last another 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Um versus ADS equipment or dance a row, it might only be two years old, but it's gonna 100% be replaced in two years. Yep. Um, so I'd say one, be realistic about it, right? You're you're not blind. Yeah. You see that there's literally duct tape on the chair. Um, two is you have to look at the the brand of equipment. Okay. Um and so the uh having the budget too, if if if it's in really poor shape, you have to make sure you structure that loan to where there is going to have to be some of the and and yes, you have five operatories of equipment, but uh you don't have to buy five chairs right now. Okay. Let's replace the worst two or the ones that you want to replace the most and make those, and that gives you a good blueprint for what you do when you do have that money. Okay. Um, but that that's been a struggle and a frustration of mine when it comes to acquisitions, yeah. Is that they will give they will pay$350,000 for the practice. Yeah, yeah. It needs all new equipment and technology. It needs everything, yeah. Yet the bank allows for$350,000,$50,000 working capital,$15,000 for paint and floor.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

I promise you, day one, that sterilizer is gonna break, and where's that$9,000 gonna put now?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Yeah, or the panel goes down, CBCT goes down, vacuum compressor goes down, you cancel the week.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Yeah. Um but going based off of that, I I had one to where um I was just there to evaluate the equipment. But then I noticed it was a 1970s office, really weird setup, only side delivery. Okay, really far away from the chair, in fact, which is even harder. Um, but it's for right-handed dentists. Well, I call a doctor and said, You don't happen to be left-handed, do you? Oh and she's like, Yeah, why? Well, riddle me this. How do you how are you literally gonna get these hand pieces? And so the only way to do it was to literally trench it in this case, and that just can't happen. So it literally killed the deal, and I felt really bad because I wasn't there to bless the office, I was there just to say good, better, best. And ended up-handed setup, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, was I the bad guy in that case to everybody that spent hours and hours and hours on that deal? Yes, but it was the right thing for the doctor because if she inked that deal and then she comes to sit down and then realizes her hand pieces are nine feet away on that wall, that's a really bad day.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Yeah, I mean, that's I agree. And I also think that if you visit the space and you didn't pick up on that, you should. No, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

I mean, I don't think I don't I honestly don't think that it's the doctor's fault in that. No, no, I don't think the doctor's fault.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

I don't think I just don't think that when they visit the they visit the office, they're not looking for those things. No, they're meeting the doctor, they're kind of getting a glance around, they're probably going, oh, well, there's paper charts, oh, they're not digital, okay, cool, but they're not sitting at the chair going, oh, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

Oh, this, oh crap, you know what I mean? Maybe no different than like, hey, the car is great, cool. Oh, wait a minute, it's manual? Oh man, I didn't ever sit in the thing. You know, I didn't I didn't actually test try because you don't get to test try the practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

No, you don't you don't, and you know, if for all the brokers and practice sales out there, yeah, yeah. Um, if you could please, please, please, you gotta be there at the practice at some point. Yeah, take a three-minute video clip. If you're not doing a matter report and doing whatever, take a three-minute video clip because sometimes they're they're like, Ben, I really need to do this due diligence and I'm trying to close next week. Well, if you're only giving me from 5 to 7 a.m. one day a week or at 7 p.m. on a Thursday, it might be a couple weeks before I can do that. But if you can send me a video or you can get in there and I can FaceTime you, or my project manager can, I can literally do everything and see everything I need from that video or from that FaceTime, and it's gonna make that compress the timeline. Yeah, for sure. So please, please, please, videos.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

Well, on that note, anything else you want to add? Any mistake you see made, anything you're really excited about? Um contractors. Okay. I don't know. I mean, we don't have time for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah. But I I would I would say if I could get one contractor in here, I would, but every contractor's got a different version.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Oh, well, everybody's got a different version. Um I I would just say, you know, lean lean on you, lean on the equipment specialists to understand they know the position, the type of office that you're trying to build in the location. Got it. The equipment specialist, you you know the major players. You can narrow down the major players. Um, and just because I like two or three contractors doesn't mean that I'm going to recommend them every time because maybe I have insider Intel that they just signed ink three big deals and you're gonna get put on the back burner.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

Yep, very true.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:48

Right? So lean on your local resources to kind of help you narrow it down. And then once you do narrow it down, too many times they'll take it for granted, say, okay, yeah, you know, the contractor said everything's in that bid. No, sit down with your plan.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

Yeah, smart.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

With the contractor, walk through the plan, walk through the itemized deal, and say, what is included? Show me what's included. Yeah. Um, because that's where you also lights, door schedules, everything throws what what the the ceiling grid's made out of to the baseboard. They're like, well, this is cheap ass baseboard. Well, that's their standard. That's why we need to talk about it. Yep. Um so really spend some time on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

Okay. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

Uh everybody can find you on social media.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:34

Yep. Social media, would you like to do that? So Ben Oliver Dental. Uh Instagram is Ben Oliver Dental. Okay, great. Uh my Pinterest is BOliver1835.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

That's got to get a lot of hits. Love that Pinterest board. It's I even see stuff recommended to me on Pinterest that you have tagged, and I laugh. Because I also see stuff that like uh ADAC has or DCI has or such and such architect has, and then I'll see like Ben Oliver likes this, you might like this too. Uh I find this.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

I yeah, I not everything on Pinterest, I did. Let's just be real. But that's that's where I get a lot of my my hits. And um so those are the two uh two deals. That's those are the two areas you can find me. But um it's just find your team and trust, trust, trust the team. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

I mean, that's I find it interesting that you go through the process, you build the team, you try to you work, talk to people about the team, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then you'll go ask a group of strangers. Hey, what do you think about this? This guy told me this, and then that group of strangers, of course, is gonna have their own opinions, their own input from their perspective, from their lens, etc. And so if you know different, you know, if I uh I can go ask some of the people I grew up with, where do you want to go for dinner tonight? They would say McDonald's. I can go ask some of the people that I uh, you know, know now, and they might say, Oh, we're gonna go to a nice dinner or a work dinner, we're gonna go to Mastros. Okay, great. But the perspectives are vastly different, and the experiences at dinner will be vastly different, and the people are vastly different. You're gonna go ask a group of strangers, hey, what do you think? And you have no idea how they practice dentistry, what they believe about the world, where they are in the world, what their budget was. I I see that a lot on Instagram, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

And you also see the good things, you don't see the everything that went down.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

I see folks on Instagram saying, I'm a startup and I'm crushing it, yada yada, and and it they're not giving you the full perspective, not so much the bad things. Uh let's say that everything's going well for them, which I believe there's a lot of that going on. Yeah. But they're not telling you how much they actually spent. Because you and I look at it, we know a lot of people. I know some prominent Instagram figures that are like, hey, I did a startup and listen to me and how I did it. Uh, but what they're not telling you is that, like, yeah, the bank gave them this loan and then they borrowed this much money from mom and dad, spouse, whoever. 100%. And so you're not gonna do their startup. And I don't even know if that's like, yes, it is a startup, but I go back to when I was 16, my dad was like, I don't care if I owned a car dealership, you're getting a used car. Okay. Yeah. I had buddies getting brand new BMWs, and I was like, I kind of I don't I wish I had that going on in my life, but that was never gonna be my life. Yeah. And so we weren't in the same lane at 16 years old. And there's a lot of people that are like, well, we're all doing startups. Yeah, but some people are doing it with mom and dad's money.

unknown 1:12:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:04

That's that's that's so true. It's I've done it more often than not. And that's honestly, those are fun because you get to build Detaj Mother.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

There is no budget, man. Let's go. Let's go. All right. Well, but so social media, uh, Instagram, Pinterest, uh, any anywhere else they can find you. They don't have to, just saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

No, I mean you're good. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

Instagram, DM you, blow up your DMs, ask a bunch of questions. Do it. Or be in Southern Cal.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

Be in Southern Cal, that's all I do is is Southern Cal.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:31

So Okay, cool. Um, well, thank you, man. I appreciate you being here. This is fun. I could have gone on one, yeah. Um, but you know, but we all got shit to do. So appreciate it. Thanks, man.