S02E03 - Unplugged No. 1: Efficiency... At What Cost?

This one’s a bit different.

No script. No neat structure. Just a conversation that went where it went.

It started with a home battery and an app that quietly gamifies efficiency… and somehow ended up in a much bigger question.

What happens when the pursuit of efficiency starts to shape how we work, think, and treat people?

Along the way we cover:

• How easily efficiency becomes the goal, not the outcome
• Whether people become collateral damage in “doing more with less”
• AI, and what we think it’s going to do to the workplace (vs what it might actually do)
• What younger people might be thinking about their future careers right now
• Why “I’m busy” might not always mean what we think it does
• And yes… a French bulldog making some unexpected background appearances (he’s fine, just sounds like a small train)

No big conclusions. Just a few honest observations.

Welcome to Unplugged.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Nah, not today. This one's unplugged. We um I we recently had a battery installed at home. Did I tell you? Oh, are you telling me about that? Yeah, how'd that go? It works works great by the way.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

But it's it's really quite interesting, actually. You know this might kind of flow into what I wanted to what I wanted to chat to you today about. So one of the things that, you know, when you get these batteries, sole or whatever, right? They all come with an app.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

And it's got lots of little diagrams on it, and there's things flowing one way and this way and that way.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Everything's appified these days.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Everything is appified. Yeah. But I'm I mean I'm kind of wide a bit that way in terms of like going, oh cool, that's freaking awesome. It's going there, it's coming from here.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

But one of the things that has actually been really quite interesting, right, is that because of the app, and because I can see what's happening, I actually feel like it's changed my behaviour.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, I know, I'll probably relate to that. It's kind of weird, right? Because it's like, ooh, you know, you know that the battery's there and it's you can see how much, you know, what the percentage of the battery is, and you can see there's like power flowing back to the house, right? And it's like, shit. Turn turn the light off. Don't don't leave that light on because that's just gonna suck extra, you know, power from the battery. So it's actually just it I've actually found it quite interesting because it's one of those things where inadvertently I've kind of been pushed into an efficiency without actually knowing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Yeah, you you've got a battery influencer in your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

That's what that's an interesting way to look at it, actually.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Well, instead of an influencer convincing you to buy clothes or uh, you know, four-wheel drive gear or whatever else, you've got a battery telling you, suggesting, making suggestions unknowingly to you that you've got to switch off the light. Yeah, yeah. Pretty good though. No, and look, I think it's That's a good influencer to have just quietly.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Look, it's not a bad influencer, don't get me wrong. I mean, look, I think it's it's something we've looked at for a while in terms of sort of trying to get a bit greener, I guess, in our energy consumption. Uh what's nice is you can actually see over a 24-hour period how much you are self-sufficient, self-sufficient, right? So it provides a percentage. And I think for most days when it's been quite nice, you know, maybe we're running 99% self-sufficient. So that kind of makes it's a feel-good thing. But I guess what I was trying to sort of pitch on there was that that level of efficiency in those metrics, like the visibility into those metrics, is basically in a lot of way just tried well, inadvertently it's kind of made me try and optimise my behaviour. And I guess what I wanted to touch on was that are we in a workplace through similar methods actually just trying to optimize our workplaces to a point where um people's behaviours are changing without us really noticing. And so as a consequence, are people are are people missing out or are people the collateral damage to our efforts to create efficiency?

SPEAKER_03 3:18

I will say yes. In based on what you've just outlined, if I consider some clients that I have got, um I mean it's fantastic, and you know, in this hyper-focused market, hyper competitive market, price cutting, price gouging, all that kind of thing to be competitive, to be relevant and be on edge. Um, you know, it's great to see where you can trim the fat to be as on point as you possibly can. But what I have noticed in some of the companies that I'm working at is uh it comes at the detriment of not all, not all, but comes at the detriment of really spending time knowing your people. Uh it has an impact on the culture, and I've seen one or two businesses where it has become completely transactional. It is, you know, even a small business with a machine mindset.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

So what do you think? From your experience then, what do you think is driving that? Is that are we trying to get to a level of efficiency that's not achievable? Or is it is it just that the mindset is we need to make this business efficient? And the only way to make it efficient is we need to be less concerned about the people and more concerned about the metrics.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Um look, in my experience, I don't think that the leaders are not concerned about their people, which is why, you know, I've been asked to come in. We got some we got some things that bother us, and it's almost always about people. So I don't think that they're the people have become an asset as such. I think they're just so consumed with trying to stay on point and stay relevant and at such a fast pace that you know that becomes the focus, that becomes the priority.

unknown 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

I don't know if I answered your question, but no, no, I think you did. And I I think So yeah, we we just get caught up with, you know, classic example. I don't know whether we talked about it in one of the other times we're caught up, but you know, this thing of AI, that's another classic. Like everyone has decided that they need AI in their business, but so many don't actually know why they need AI. Why they need it because they're told they need it, all right? Yeah, and I agree AI can be fantastic in many ways, but used for the sake of using it without a strategy behind it and some policies around it, well, completely detrimental. Yeah, right. Affects the value of the people, the level of professionalism if it's not used in the right way. To this point, I what I have seen is as much as it may serve well for you know running efficiently, um of the flip side to that is uh the people don't feel felt in the business because it becomes a numbers game. And I've actually seen the level of customer service diminish.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Yeah, that's an interesting observation, actually.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Not saying that's for every business, but on occasion the customer service gets diminished because now the KPIs for the employees are on trimming the fat faster, cheaper, you know, so it's that um you know, something something gets given, something's got to give, right? There's always a consequence to every decision you make.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah. And and I think just on that, I think one of the things that that does concern me and I do see is that when when there's I guess this constant desire to to to be wanting to trim and make everything neat and tidy or tight, it's all well and good until things go wrong, right? And and then that's when it it just kind of falls apart.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Because there's not there's either A not the support network or not enough slack in the system as such. And and I'm using Slack just in terms of it feels like we often, you know, when I chat with people, we often cut things to such a to such a level that there is no wiggle room. So if it goes wrong or if it it heads in a different way than we expect, then there's not enough room and there's there's there's too much the the lead time is to you know, or to get back to that point where you can either react to a situation where it's changed is is too great.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Oh, 100%. You know, the it it it becomes very inflexible and the adaptability gets challenged. And this is what I'm saying about customer service, right? It often the speed of response, depending on what it is, is being used, but you know, and how it's being used, but you know, if it's all about productivity and maximum profit and delivery, it's great in a lot of ways for a client, but then the flip side can be well, you know, that client didn't feel felt, or the client changes his mind, or you know, there's a change in whatever it is, it it's hard to flex. Yeah, and um you know, I think where generally we're missing is this drive for perfection, which essentially is what this is meant to be about. Yeah, your your your pursuit of perfection. Um you're never gonna be perfect. You will never ever be perfect, and I guarantee you will never ever ever be perfect. The only way you can possibly be perfect if everything remains exactly the way it is for the next for the rest of your life, right? Because you'll do the same thing and get the same result. So you can put these things in place, do whatever you want, but the minute one little thing changes in your environment, whether it's a conflict going on over on the other side of the world, or you know, a change in government policy, or even as simple as one employee leaving and a new one starting, or a change in leadership attitude, that perfection that push it adjusts that pursuit of perfection. So, you know, that whole thing around efficiency, it's great to have that mindset around it, but I think what you're talking about is you there's got to be an element of um flex around that, and that's where people become really, really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

And and I think just on that, it's I think it's easy for a business to become stagnant in in that framework that you've just described there. And not so much just stagnant maybe from a um, let's say an improvement perspective, right? And we we want to be careful that we're not just improving for the sake of improving, but we also, you know, this sense of if you put a system in place and you, let's say you, you know, you reach utopia and you create perfection, the thing is perfection is fleeting, right? Because it's only perfection for that. That's what I'm saying. Well, and so it it's like the battery, right? The battery gets to 100%, but it at it's pretty much going to be declining from there on. Five minutes later, it's not five minutes later it's not, right? It's back down to 99, 98. So the thing is that this and we talk a bit about, you know, that continuous improvement, but we don't necessarily want to be improving just for the sake of improving. We need to be doing that with a conscious focus in mind. And I think that the danger there that you just touched on is that you can get to a point of perfection, but if you continue to go down the path and and you don't watch it and you don't monitor it, then you run the risk of becoming stagnant or falling away. But it's there's a balance there though, right? Because if you can't just disappear down that wormhole of being in a consistent or sorry, a constant state of improvement and not actually take into account the others that that go into being part of that system, and that's the people, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Yeah, yeah. Well, if you look at root cause analysis when you're looking at waste factory and improvement, all that sort of thing, you know, it's there's the process, there's the systems, there's your people, there's leadership, there's the supply chain, your clients, what else? Um materials that you use, there's a range of things that are influencing that, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's um yeah, again, one little thing only needs to change amongst all of that, and it it impacts all of, you know, the the ability to be perfect and be at full capacity of a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah. And I think that's you know, potentially, you know, Rick's what we're sort of sort of touching on. I I wanted to just you mentioned before the AI thing, and I've I I do find and look, I I'm not an AI expert, that's not my area at all. But it it is really quite interesting how it it feels like there's been this groundswell around AI. But I don't know what you're seeing necessarily. But I don't I I'm sure that there's efficiencies and I'm sure that there's areas where AI is proving to be highly advantageous for some organizations. But I wonder at times whether it's actually just sort of becoming a performance benchmark in terms of saying, well, we've got AI now and you should be able to get that done quicker. Rather than necessarily better. And because I think the other thing that does concern me about it is that it does feel like maybe we're losing room for the thinking component. Yeah. Are we still allowing people to actually sit around and think about a problem or think about how they're going to approach something?

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Yeah, well, mate, I I actually find it a little bit scary, and it's not just AI, it's technology in general. I was reading something the other day, and it was saying that, so this may offend some people that listen, but in the article, so it's not my words, it's the article's words, and I cannot remember where I saw it. Apologies. But it was talking about the fact that X Generation X is the last fully functioning human beings on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

And everyone I function fully.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Yeah, so do I, when I'm awake. But fully functioning in terms of full capacity to think, create. You know, when when we were kids, I'm in Gen X, so are you. Am I? Are you?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I do you know what? I actually just get confused with all these gens. Doesn't matter, you're Gen X. Okay, thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Once upon a time, you remembered the phone numbers of all your mates. Right? Well, that was five numbers, so yeah, there was a level of creativity, um, you know, you got out, explored the world, touched nature, and all this sort of thing. It's our fault, like the generation before, you know, before whatever generation we're talking about, are the cause of you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

They're the cause of the problems.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Well, they are, right? We do these things to make things easier, and then it gets adapted or adopted, or whatever it is. My point is, you know, we were the last that were fully functional in terms of using full faculty for performance and engagement, right? The generations after us have slowly gained um, you know, adapting to the use of technology, and they're, you know, to the point where, you know, whether you talk about AI or anything like that, they're predicting that um in years to come, potentially generations in the future will not have the capacity to memorize anything.

unknown 16:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

There'll be no memory, right? Memory will not be utilized because I can the only thing they need to remember is what to type into the device or to recall to call up, right? It'll be there instant, instantly, right? Okay. There's that, there's the risk of they're saying that younger and younger will be um cases of dementia because our brains aren't being used. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Oh, fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

The other thing that I would see as a concern with the likes of AI is you know, if you're using AI to do the job, then what is the value of the person that is being employed to? Right. So here's a person on a six-figure salary that is designed or or employed to solve problems, clear roadblocks, find solutions, but if the machine is doing it for them, then you know, are they actually worth the six-figure salary that they're on? I I'm not these aren't answers I'm saying I'm right or wrong. These are just things that I ponder about and think about, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:22

But some people might question efficiency to that as well, right? Because they might say Well, this is the thing, yeah, I was like, is that on a six-figure income? And and let's just say the metric was they were running at 85% efficiency. They've now got AI as a tool to work with them. Are they now pushing out 95%?

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Well, this is my thing, right? So I I totally agree. There's two sides of the fence, right? And this is where it goes back before about what are we actually using AI for? What are the terms of engagement? What are our policies around that? When can it be used and when it can't be used?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

It feels like that's shifted though, right? Because and and I think the language that's come out of these big AI businesses is you know, it felt like it was going to be this all-consuming, was going to be able to do everything. But I think the reality hasn't quite matched the hype. Not not from what I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I I think it's a great tool, and I think in the right environments it it works really well.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

But I I I think it has some limitations. You know, it was interesting. I was listening to um to an audio book recently um by a guy, a guy by the name of Mike Kim, who's a marketing guy.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Oh, it wasn't Dr. Zeus?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

No, but I am a big fan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

So the good stories in him, actually. He's got a lot of good life stories. Continue, continue, sorry, mate.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

So in that particular instance, he was talking to somebody who was also a marketing guy, and they were talking about how they had brought AI in as part of an automation process for a business that he was working for. This business was growing exponentially, and so they implemented some tools that I understand were, you know, were being driven by AI around what they were sending out to their customers. And after a relatively short period of time, after they'd seen this big period of significant growth, their growth basically plateaued. Flatlined.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

And they couldn't really understand what was going on. And so they went and did a bit of research with their customers and tried to get a bit of feedback about what was going on. And what was interesting was that the feedback that they got was that people were basically just saying that the material you're sending out is just it's just trollop, right? It's just absolute trash. You've lost the personal connection with me as a customer of your business, and you're just sending me out something that is.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yep. So this is the client experience thing that I mentioned before. That's exactly right, right? So it makes my life easier internally, but there's an element of dissociation externally, right? You're spot on. And it is a good tool, don't get me wrong. I I I I've used it, I like it for some things, I think it's great, but it's that it's that uh, you know, like a I mean, I do a lot with building CRMs for businesses, right? And it's it's exactly the same as building a new CRM and the validity and accuracy of that CRM, rubbish in equals rubbish out, and what are the terms of that IR, where why where is it pulling that information on? If it's an internal fenced AI solution that has all of your IP and data, that can be great. But if it's going out to the universe, it could be incredibly dangerous. The other thing, and I may be proven wrong, and someone will say you were wrong somewhere down the track, but I do not believe that AI will ever replace hearts and handshakes.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

It can't. No, we have to be.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

People will say that maybe well, I I know people that are telling me now that they want to use AI for sales and B D. Right? I I can understand the use of it in terms of potential analysis of your market with internal, you know, ring-fenced information, but I do not believe if you are all about uh if you are a business about relationships and client experience and making your clients feel felt, speed of response, maybe it'll talk to speed of response a little bit, but if that that's essentially what business is a it's a people, it's a people thing. Business is is people to people, right? Yeah, and um it will I don't believe it'll ever replace hearts and handshakes because you it you know I think we've said it before, it doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter what you do, people remember how you were made to how how you made them feel.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

How you made them feel, yeah, yeah. And we've talked about that a bit actually. It look it's a really interesting thing, and I 100% agree with you. I think I think AI certainly has its place. I think from an from an analysis and an analytics perspective, I think it can make them. Massive difference to particular businesses and to particular activities. I think it's, you know, the capability of it to, you know, for you to be able to throw, for example, a whole bunch of data at it and for it to just be able to make some sense, assuming that you're able to provide the right prompts around what you want out of, you know, say a data set, for example, I think those things are fantastic. Again, keep in mind there's probably a whole litany of things that it's doing that that I'm not familiar with. But uh something else that was really interesting was that during the week I was listening to um somebody speaking, and it was a it was a young uh uh young woman, she just leaving high school or just left high school, and she was talking a little bit about how her perspective and her the perspective of her peers was around how AI was impacting their career choices and their career growth in terms of what they should choose uh to pursue. Whether that was, you know, do they pursue something that is focused around AI and ensuring that their career path is matched by what futurists or others believe is the direction that we're going to take. Her perspective was that she she wanted to do an arts degree and follow her passion rather than following something that she didn't really want to do. But it was it was interesting because as part of that, they talked a little bit about the fear that she noticed, or that within her peer group, the the fear within that group around I don't know what I'm gonna do because AI is basically gonna take things away from us that we thought we might want to do. And it actually got me to thinking, and I thought, at the time I thought, oh, that's actually a really interesting point. But then when I had time to reflect on it, I thought, well, hang on a second, it's really quite an insular and narrow perspective on career options for people at that age, right? We're we're currently in an environment where we have a massive housing shortage, we have a massive skills shortage in this country, healthcare, healthcare, yep, construction, education, education, yep. And I thought, well, hang on a second. And and if we think about those things, right? So healthcare, that's a hands and hearts role. Education, same thing. Yep. Construction, yep. That's uh that's hands-on, yep. Yes, there's going to be some robotics and AI can certainly do things, yep. But it just felt like, you know, it was like, oh, hang on a second, where to some extent, are we being sort of pushed down a path in terms of the belief around the impact potentially of what AI might be having? And I and without really looking at the bigger picture. Because I would have thought that if you even if you just looked at it through that lens of saying, well, hang on a second, we we we need to build 1.5 million houses in this in this country or something over the next 10 years or whatever the numbers are, but we haven't got enough people to do it. So are we not providing enough opportunity? And I know we've probably gone off track here a bit, but I I'm I think just leads to another point. It does. But my question is, are we are we providing kids with enough opportunity to understand the roles that are actually needed rather than we seem to be hyper-focused on what AI is going to do to change the world and the way that we live, and yet we're forgetting about the fundamentals that probably exist in society.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Yeah, well, this is scare tactics, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I shouldn't use that term scare tactics, but essentially, I mean Well, is it scare tactic or is it just commercialise, you know, is it commercialisation? It's like we've spent billions of dollars building this infrastructure, we need you to use it.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is what I'm saying, like you know, and and and and media stories that get told, you know, AI is coming in and you know the things that we hear that influence going back to the world of influence, right? Yeah, and you know, you you've got these people, the young people that are I guess I would be guessing that they are becoming fearful of not being relevant, right? If I don't pick something that is in line with what I'm told is important in the future, what I need to be looking at in the future, yeah, uh I could be on the bare bones and living under a tree and be completely irrelevant, right? And and it also feeds to the problem is around how we define success, right? So society has defined success by bigger, better, more money, that's security. That's quite materialistic, isn't it? Very materialistic. So I was actually having this conversation with a friend of mine yesterday because we're potentially building a little bit of a workshop around well-being for people, exactly around this sort of thing, and it's now you're starting to create an issue. Man, this is getting a long way off the battery thing we started with, isn't it? But it doesn't matter, this is unplugged. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so the the issue now is um with what you're talking about, the the the young person looking to choose a role based on what is essentially survival and society's definition of success, you're now running the risk of a serious internal conflict for that person against who they are as a person and what what makes them what what they're passionate about.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah, and I I think that's exactly what the the interview that I saw the other day, that was exactly what they were essentially saying was that that people within her cohort are being driven by external influences rather than rather than what really sits at the core of who they are.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

What their personal values are. And and this relates back to the efficiency and the AI and whatever you want to talk about in the businesses as well, because that all impacts the culture of a business. Yeah, it can have a significant impact on the values in the business, you know. If if if we're a business that is all about prosperity and customer focus and happiness and whatever it whatever they say it is on the wall, uh and this this uh relentless focus on efficiency and improvement is in conflict, proves to be in conflict. I'm not saying that it's impossible because I've definitely seen plenty of businesses that can do both, yeah. But in every instance when they do, they have a very clear focus on their people, hearts and handshakes as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

So there's flex in those businesses, going back to what you were saying before, they have flexibility, there's adaptability, they actually create space in their business, they recognise that there's an element of waste that is required for the business to function effectively. Safety is a classic. It is, it could be deemed a waste, but it's necessary to protect our people, right? It's not productive, it it chews into our profitability, so it is QA in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

But but that that's slack as a feature rather than as waste, right? So that's and I get it within a business, you know, it it's there's a fine line between obviously what it costs you to run a business and and the people, because obviously people are a probably the largest cost, I guess, of of having a business. And so there's this sense of you know wanting to be as efficient as you can there. But you know, then there's that that sort of that grey area, that that area where you need that flex.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Definitely, I think um well I mean we're herd animals by nature, but it's there's got to be that element of care for each other and um you know helping each other grow, be better people, and having your your your your productivity and profitability at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah. So do you do you think in what you've seen, do you think that if we talk about this as a pursuit of efficiency, and that's probably not the right words, but if we talk about this as a whole, do we Do you see do you think people are are are tired and exhausted in the pursuit of like do we think that people are not so much suffering, but uh are they in this pursuit of trying to be uh you know uber efficient, are are we basically just wearing people down?

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I mean I I Or is that just just society as a whole?

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Do you think like we're just on No, it's as a whole. I think it's as a whole. You know, this whole thing around uh I find, you know, when we go to our networking events, it's classic. When you meet someone, catch up with someone at the networking event, you ask them how they are. The very first thing they say, in order defining how good their life is, is how busy they are, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Super busy.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

I'm busy, yeah. I prefer to say it's great, I'm doing nothing. That would be, you know, my my my dream is to do absolutely nothing. It's not working very well at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah, I I'm we're gonna get off track here because you know, Alexander. I've got a theory about that.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Lock in the hubs, mate.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

I I've got a theory about that. And I've noticed this a bit actually at networking events. I I and I agree. But I often agree, or well, I often reflect on it and think, is everyone really busy, or or is that response a response that is guarded and defensive, right? Because if you go to a networking event and you go, you know what, I've got absolutely nothing on. I'm really looking, you know, I'm looking for some work, I don't have any work going on. Do you think that people are more reluctant to say that and feel like they have there's some pressure for them to make other people think that they're busy and everything's going well? Because I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody at a networking event where somebody said to me, actually, let's go and shit house. I'm um I'm desperate for work.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Well, this is what I'm saying about the societal definition of success, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

So you turn up at that and you feel like you need to prove that you're successful.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Maybe not everyone does that, but I see a lot of it. You know, I take great pride in saying I'm trying to do nothing.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I just, you know. Well, I usually have the, you know, I've there's a scale that I have in my head, right? That is a time-based scale that goes between if if I meet someone and they tell me that they're really busy, and the point in time after they finish that comment to when they hand me their business card really gives me an indication of how actually busy they are.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Quite interesting, right? So is there a formula for that?

SPEAKER_00 32:55

No, it's just inversely proportional to the time, right? So the longer it takes for them to hand you their business card, or if they don't hand you their business card at all, they're busy.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So never thought about that. See, I don't even carry business cards, so what does that mean for me?

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Well, that means you've just you're all on the chill scale. Whatever's. Whatever's you know, there's no there's no science to that.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

No, it's just I'm gonna observe that next week at our networking event. Yeah, exerve that. The thing is though, like going back to that term busy, you asked before about uh you know, ringing people out. I do hear often the term burnout. You know, I'm burnt out, and it's like, well, what does that actually mean? Like, are you burnt out because you are actually overworked? And these are all the conflicts, right? In one instance, um, you know, we there are businesses that are just piling work on top of people, left, right, and centre. But then those same businesses will have AI to make their life easier, and then that same person, you know, commits to you know going over and above, which is a fantastic trait to have and it's good for promotion, and then will throw in five different sports for their kids and the expectation that society has on them. So I think overall there is an element of burnout, but I think it's a society thing, not necessarily a business thing. There are people that push their teams pretty hard, yeah, but I think as people in society we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and we push ourselves too hard, which leads to burnout.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yeah. Yeah. And I often wonder whether you know whether the sort of gig economy type scenario where people are transient between businesses actually has a an amplification or a I would say it would, because my guess would be there that every time someone swaps sides. It's like snakes and ladders, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Yeah, well, I mean you're you're you're you know, you're winning and losing knowledge and experience.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

And every time this goes back to before about the the automation and the app and the AI and everything, right? The minute something in your environment changes, it has a knock-on effect to the proficiency and consistency and stability of that thing that is going on, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

I actually just wanted to go back to the app because I think one of the things I I didn't want that to necessarily be a negative thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:43

No, no, I don't know, it's not. It's it's just it's a good starting point.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

I just found it fascinating how I could actually feel that my behaviour was changing on the basis of what I was seeing on on the app. But I think that also shows something potentially positive as well from a business perspective, because I think if you um if you can't see it or you can't measure it, right? Is the if you can't measure it then pardon me, you can't actually do anything about it. And I think the app actually showed that there's metrics there, right? So you can see the metrics again, you can actually react to them. And I think sometimes uh, you know, maybe some businesses don't have sufficient metrics to actually, or the right metrics to actually understand what's what's happening in their business, how things are being done. And so from that perspective, whilst you don't necessarily want to be driven 100% by your metrics, if you're not actually looking at the metrics of things that are important in your business, that you know the numbers that actually matter, then it's really difficult for you to make those adjustments to ensure that the that things are going well or that you're going in the right direction. Yeah. So that was you know you know the other thing that's just I guess from a if you've got metrics and you're able to under understand them and they fit within what the goals are for your business, then it makes it much easier actually to be able to direct your business in the right path.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

Yeah, look, we we we've probably maybe the theme around this conversation has been has a negative connotation to all this technology. I'm I'm a fan of it. I think it's great. The issue, uh not issue, but you know, the the thing I've got, it's that if you go back to a very simplistic view of technology, business, your life, whatever it is, it's you know, is this thing that we are doing or measuring is it how is this adding value to our life? Because realistically, you don't do anything, you anything that you choose to implement should be to make your life better, make you happier, right? Yeah, so there's nothing wrong with any of that. It's just I you know I wonder whether do we actually stop for a moment and say, how is this intending to make our life better? Not just around profit, yeah, but happiness all around with our suppliers, our people, our clients. And um, you know, it it probably then comes back to well, does and I think it's we said it before around the AI and everything, is this thing we're doing aligned with the values of our company? And our values being matched to does our employees' personal values match our company values? So it's all interlinked, right? But in actual fact, it's just another check around. I'm all for it, but it becomes a steam train, mate.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Is that the dog?

SPEAKER_03 38:39

That's a dog, that's your dog, not my dog.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Go to the next station.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

It sounded like Thomas the tank engine, it just but well, he actually looks a bit more like the fat controller than Thomas, but um as I said before, mate, he's the monkey bike of dogs. If you're listening, that's the joy of owning a French bulldog. Um in fact it's not even ours. We're we're just adopted.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

We're Foster dog. Yeah. But yeah, I think I think again, I think it goes back to your app, the battery, anything else. How does this thing that we are choosing to implement, use, constantly monitor? How does it make our life uh put our life in a happier place rather than putting more pressure on us and creating more anxiety for us?

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Do you think people how do you think people think about you know those that type of efficiency in a workplace? So have you spoken to anyone around like how do they feel about having had AI implemented into their workplace?

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Um how do they feel? So I've got some businesses that are completely against it, absolutely anti. Their views are we have highly qualified professionals that are paid for their knowledge and experience. And at the end of the day, when we sign a report, it stands in the court of law and the person is responsible. And they've they're tied up with you know government contracts and stuff that has limitations around AI, all that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

On the flip side, I've seen other businesses that are using AI to do absolutely everything, which concerns me greatly. Um, you know, everything from let's just plug in contracts and see what, you know, it just it's scary at the very other end of the scale. Really scary. So I don't know if I've answered your question, but I've just seen a range of things. And and again, this is just that whole um maybe it's just we still don't understand how it can how to use it, harness it and use it properly. I think I think there's plenty of consultants out there that are plugging it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

But look, my particular if I say if I look at LinkedIn, for example, my LinkedIn feed is just completely flooded with people saying as as an AI consultant, how can I come into your business so I can make your business more efficient?

SPEAKER_03 41:30

And and and they might be awesome, they might do a great job. I wonder whether, you know, how many of those people uh if they're doing that, how many of them actually, before they get started, actually understand the culture of the business and how that business thinks and how they move, you know, what's their speed and their response and what's the client say about them, what's their reputation, their relevance in the marketplace. Yeah. Because all that has a big influence on any type of system you put in to that business.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

It sort of gets back to that content and context, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Content, context, feeling felt, absolutely. And this is the thing, like, you know, we keep dismissing it's more and more becoming transactional, and whether we like it or not, it's people are involved, and and and and so you know, people need to feel felt and you need to look after them.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

Yeah. And by doing that, you can actually create efficiencies that way as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. That might actually be a good place to finish it.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

If you want, because I think the steam train is uh sitting there at the station waiting for you to board or something. It's like the what's the what's the one down south in Dwelling Up or something? The Hotham train or something or other.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Does that go up to northern?

SPEAKER_03 42:49

I don't know what it does, yeah. I don't know. I've never been on that train, but he's like that train. Yeah, he is. Alright, Jace. Classic.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Appreciate your time. It's good to chat with you.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I'd just talk some rubbish, don't I?

SPEAKER_00 43:03

We like to.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

It's all good. Yeah, I love it. If you enjoyed it, I didn't I didn't get in trouble on the days inning in Wai. I just wait for that.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Alright, we'll catch you next time.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

See you late.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Okay. That's it for this episode. Thanks for listening to No One Told Me This. If it landed, send it to someone else trying to leave without completely losing the play. You can follow the show for more of us conversations around ladieship, things, and what place closer. Catch you next time.