The Strength From Within Podcast
"Strength from Within" is a Motto of the Royal Anglian Regiment. A British Army Infantry Regiment with a strong Operation history. This Podcast is designed for People associated to the Regiment to be able to share their stories and the lessons learnt throughout their career.
The Host, Steve Armon is a former RSM of the 1st Bn and served a full career as a Soldier in the Regiment.
The Strength From Within Podcast
Ep 06 Op Telic 8 20 years on: Tom "Tompo" Power
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The 2nd Battalion of the Royal Anglian Regiment deployed on Operation Telic 8 in the summer of 2006. In honour of the 20 year anniversary here is the first of a couple of Podcasts telling the stories of those that were there.
Tom Power (Tompo) was a private Soldier during this tour and he tells his story in a very honest and passionate manor.
Some great stories of war fighting and reflection.
You're listening to the Strength from Within podcast. My name is Steve Lumman, and I sit down and talk to those that chose to serve support and from my followers and leaders, serving and veterans. We discuss not only the lessons they learned, but we also share advice and experience that we hope will help. Right, welcome to uh the first of a series of podcasts where we're really focusing on uh the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment's tour of uh Iraq, Operation Telecate, which took place in 2006. So 20 years ago now. Uh, very lucky today to have someone that I know pretty well and I've worked with in the past. Um, extremely professional bloke. Uh, he's now currently up at the RTC Catarick and it's colour sergeant Tom Power. Um, Tom was a private soldier on that tour, which is regarded as a bit of a benchmark tour for the 2nd Battalion. Um, and he's going to run us through his experiences and we're going to have a chat about that today. So, Tom, welcome, mate. It's good to see you, and thanks for coming down. Um, let's just learn a little bit about you first. So, if you can just sort of talk through your career from the year that you joined, if you can remember, I always struggle. Um, tell us some of the key postings that you've been on, some of the tours, and then uh we'll sort of wind up where you are now, mate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I started my journey within the army back in 2005 when I started uh my training up at Catrick, and from there uh passed out in the July of 05, went met the battalion straight in Northern Ireland, there for a short period, moved to Turnhill, and then that would then begin the uh like the pre-deployment element ready for deployment on to Telic 8, and then subsequently from there moved to Germany, Telic 12, moved to Cyprus, and then went on a um short deployment out into Afghan working with the Americans uh on a cigar team, come back from that, and then went back to Catrick in 2012 as a such commander, uh come back from there, hung around in uh cotton small for a piece, went to Cyprus, come back from there, uh and then went to um MRTC as a sergeant, nice uh come back from from that, went to Freewell Angland, so I had experience working with reserves uh for a couple years, and then uh went uh back to Battalion to do CQMS. In between that, I've done short short little stints out to like Nigeria, uh S Ts, um Jordan, like long excises. I went to one thing I did miss was Australia as an exchange after tele 12, which was really interesting. Uh and oh you actually did it, you went on the we'll come back to it. Yeah, yeah. And then um, yeah, now back up at ITC as like the master coach train insurance for infantry phase two.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've got two questions. I always forget that the poachers served in Turnhill. Where is that? So Shropshire.
SPEAKER_02So kind of like you've got Newcastle on the line, yeah, you've got a place called Hanley, uh, and um Stoke, not too far from the biggest place, Telford. Um, if you put the Muller factory, yeah, that was pretty much right on the doorstep of Turnhill. Is it right?
SPEAKER_01Good time there, good place.
SPEAKER_02It was it was decent. Okay, we didn't spend too much time there, yeah. Seeing you getting ready for um deployment and then moving to Germany. So I'd probably say from moving into there December of 05 up to the point of August 07, yeah, we didn't spend that much time in there to be honest.
SPEAKER_01And what was the uh so was that long look you did in Australia? Yeah, because that was a bit of a golden ticket, that great little number. So was that a six-month?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, six months. So that was 200 uh nine, uh, and it was a bit lucky. Uh, a good friend of mine, Luke, hat who was C Company. We were in training together, he went to A Company, he was told he was going to go on to that. Uh, he'd already done um skill at arms prior to deploying out on tele 12, and then on the way back, he was told he was coming to C Company, and we'll both stood outside this OC's office. Luke had gone in first, and he and from my memory, he was basically given a choice he could either still go to Australia or you can go do tactics. The idea being that what he was chosen to do, I was going to do the opposite. He chose tactics. I walked in, and the OC told me to pack my bags. I was going to Australia for four or six months. Sounds terrible. Yeah, sounds terrible.
SPEAKER_01Is there so the I remember a guy when I first joined, I can't remember his name, but he went out to Oz for six months, and then we had an exchange guy come over. Yeah, and the story goes that when he got out there, he basically got given a car, you know, proper looked after, went to some amazing places. The guy that came over from Australia with us, we hammered him on exercise.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say that was exactly the same. It was uh yeah, I'd gone over, they gave me uh a white Toyota Ralph 4x4, a fuel card, and I was like, That's yours for out. Yeah, I did exercises, did training, I had my own section that I was you training and playing about with because they were re-rolling how they were doing their kind of like business. Did a couple of exercises, and then in between all that, with Anzac Day and everything else, it was kind of like right get out and explore. Whereas I then speaking to guys back in battalion that were in Germany at the time, and the guy that was back in my place, yeah. Uh Prime Poacher was one of the exercises in Germany, and it did nothing but rain for three weeks. Where I didn't think I saw a drop of rain for the six months I was in.
SPEAKER_01When I first so I when I joined back in sort of '96, we used to do these exercises called exercise red shank and globetrot. And if I if I remember correctly, red shank was an international officers exercise, all done on Salisbury Plane. So you were basically pawns and you'd move around the battlefield, tab, dig, and die. That's all it was. And then Globetrot, I seem to think was the I might have got it the other way around, but PCD, Platoon Commander's division. Um, you were pawns on their final exercise, basically. So again, it's just tab, dig, and die. Amount of holes I've dug on Salisbury Plane with this Australian dude um moaning like fuck. Yeah, but yeah, no, good fun. Um, that's awesome. Um, so a nice, full, quite varied career there, actually. Did you do much on a warrior side life? No, no, did you miss that or just not yeah?
SPEAKER_02So um at a point of getting to Northern Ireland, you know, that had been back from previous, and then once we then deployed on to um tell it that was because of the history, a company took that role on. Yeah, right. And we just we stayed operating as a week.
SPEAKER_01I forget um I forget the warrior went quite so early, actually. I remember it being a big thing for the poachers, especially when they were like demo battalion in Warminster and stuff. But um that's awesome, mate. That's a nice that's a that's a nice career. Um, and up at ITC at the moment, yeah. Um, and having worked with you at Queen's Division courses, which is um so the Queen's Division has a small cell that trains up everyone within the division to do pre-career courses, junior non-commissioned officer courses, and we've sort of modelled that off the household division and para depot, and I think it's still around, isn't it? It's still a thing. It's such a good tool because then the beauty is when people then go on courses, they know people, and more importantly, they know the ground for the most part that they're going to train on as well. So it does help them out. Uh thoroughly enjoyed it down there, and that's when I first met you. Yeah, which is cool. Um, that's brilliant, mate. Um, I really want to sort of focus on telecate, that's the idea behind today. Um, like I said earlier, a mile, a milestone and a benchmark tour for the poachers. And I think the reason I call it a benchmark tour, it's not taken away from any other deployment that the poachers have done, but there was some good fighting that took place. Uh, and when you fight, you ultimately create learning accounts, you create history, you know, things that you can really sort of fall back on. Um, so you were what was your role on telecate?
SPEAKER_02So I was private soldier, and and again, just for the way things were changing, so it's like weapon systems and the like, at the point of passing out of training, I was one of very few in the battalion that could fire the LMG because it was a new weapon system brought in. Yeah, um, so I then found myself LMG gunner for that um deployment as well, yeah. Um, and then uh part of the uh search team for the uh for the company.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, and what company were you?
SPEAKER_02Uh C Company. C Company. Uh 9 Batoon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and what's um excuse my ignorance, what's the um antecedent name for C Company?
SPEAKER_02Is it so the North Hampshire Regiment 48 foot?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, nice, that's pretty cool. Um so I just want to understand as as well the sort of breakdown of the battalion, if you can cast your mind back to the geography of where everyone was. So when we the Vikings, so the first battalion were out there the summer before on Telic 6, um uh, and I was in a strike company based in uh Shiber log base, and we were going out into the city, and it was good because we get to we got to see a lot more of the of the AO, I feel we weren't just holding one bit of ground, but and I found it really interesting. So, where where were you based out of?
SPEAKER_02So we initially started from Shiber, yeah. Um, and then very quickly the brigade commander wanted us closer to him because we the the job for secret we had was um like the brigade reserve, yeah, like his strike company, and I think he wanted us a bit closer. So after a few successful operations quite quickly, um he moved us then to the A pod just so we were closer to him and then he could direct us as required. So I'd say we probably spent two or three weeks in Scheibert and then moved into the APOD and where was the rest where was the breakdown of the rest of the battalion roughly? From memory, we had A Company, we're in the palace, yeah, and then we had B Company, we're in the Chatel Arab Hotel, yeah. Yeah, uh, and then um support company, primarily again within the A pod, but you know, they were sent out as where they were needed.
SPEAKER_01And my does my memory serve me in so the Chatel Arab Hotel, I seem to remember there was a place called the wine glass, wine glass or something like that. If you look at the map, there was a certain area of streets that looked like a wine glass. Yeah. Um, I seem to remember that, and I also remember Basra Palace being one of the hottest places I've ever been.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Basra Palace was yeah, I can always remember that as well, but the point when you get in, and whether it was just the construct of all the buildings around it, you know, it you it had a massive pond right in the middle of it in various different areas, yeah. It just seemed to just radiate heat. Um, and then yeah, around like the um the Chat Larab, so you wasn't that far from like the university, yeah. Um, and then yeah, there was it almost in itself almost the road outside that was almost um a runway because there was a point where that was part of the old uh airfield prior to um kind of like what then became the A-Pod?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right, nice. Um, so deployed sort of April time, I guess. Uh yeah, and we're out there for the summer. What was when you first got on the ground, how long was it before you found yourself in a gunfighter in contact? What was sort of the atmosphere like building up to it, or did you take over, was it hot straight away, or so I quickly go off the first patrol.
SPEAKER_02So the first patrol was just very surreal because that led into our first actual strike up um, and that was just surreal. And I just remember being on the top cover, you know, thinking, you how how how have I got here? Yeah, I think, but it was you that you nothing necessarily happened, and then getting on to that first strike, you and then we're on your boats going up the river again. It was you very much kind of like pinch me here moments. Um, the first kind of element where it got into um kind of like active engagement, if you like, um, is more of a a wider story, but it involved uh a sequence where a helicopter was uh shot down, yeah. Um and as the strike company we were you tasked to get out onto and effectively help secure the uh the scene from one side of the river, and then we had a company who were on the you the other side, and it was that kind of like concentration of effort to secure that area. Um, and one of the things that sticks in my mind solely from that going back a couple of hours was um the company south media. Um I I don't know why I was at the option, but the company sounds was there, and he was like points to me, he goes, right, give the RSDC a break, he's there. This is the radio, these were all the nets, just man it, don't break anything. And that's the last thing he said as he walked out. Um and I could hear loads of chatter. The reason why it resonates with the with the helicopter because I could hear the helicopter being redirected over the net to look at a massive build-up of people in a particular area, yeah. And then the next thing is about six or seven nets they all cut.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that was that was a lynx, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there were six um personnel on board.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's let's um let's go into this a little bit because it's it's one of those stories that I've heard little snippets of here and there. And actually, there's a guy that works in RHQ called Gav, who's former Army Air Corps, and he he knows the story quite well. But um, so it was flying over Basra been retasked to keep an eye on something, and it was it shot down or yeah, it was shot down uh by memory, it was shot down our RPG.
SPEAKER_02Right, okay. So it must have been quite low or yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then if you're happy to pick it up, talk me through.
SPEAKER_02So I'll say to it, you I heard the redirector come over the net, everything went dead. Come sound when he's walked back in. And uh, if you knew and if you'd ever seen uh South Major Brian Lewis, big massive black ball guy, very scary, yeah. Um, as a you know at this point, you know, seven-month private soldier, um, and all the radio's gone dead, and I've had to kind of say all the everything's gone quiet. Um, and as he's looking around, his computer and the OC's computer simultaneously ping. He has a look and he just looks at me and he's like, All right, going out on the ground, crash the company out, public order kit, everything, everything's going. I'll be there in five minutes. I want everyone good to go. And again, being that soldier, you run in a few hundred metres across camp, get to the company, right? Everyone were being crashed out, and again, being that soldier, everyone's like, Yeah, cheers, mate. Yeah, cheers, dates. Yeah, cheers, cheers for that. You know what we seriously. And there was a lad, uh Matty Fox, um very well respected um guy, and he just grabbed me and he was like, Are you being serious? This is not a time to you for jokes and whatever. I said, No, I'm being serious. And then the moment he then said, you know, he was another private soldier, um he's got his own stories to tell, but uh he was like, Yeah, right, everyone go in, and that was it, everyone, everyone jumped at that point.
SPEAKER_01So, how long before so let's say from point of impact from helic for the helicopter, how long before the poachers were mounted up, ready to go, do you reckon? 20, 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or I'd say within no more than 30 minutes we were rolling out the gate.
SPEAKER_01Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, nice. And how long did it take to get to the site? I'd say another 15-20 minutes from there. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to sort of cast my memory back to sort of distance. But um, okay, so I mean that's pretty epic. So all out in snatch.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, all out in snatches, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Uh and then when you got to the site, what was going on? How'd it look?
SPEAKER_02It was there was a lot of confusion on the ground, I think, more so from the locals. Yeah, I think a lot of those some probably knew what happened. I would say there was a lot that didn't necessarily know what happened, maybe they just attributed to maybe just it had just crashed. Um, and then trying to like you keep everything safe, you you know, say like secure that scene, whether it's you what we were there to protect was you the airframe. We didn't know you at that point getting there, especially from my point of view, you know, casualties. I knew there was some, I just didn't know what they were. Um, but also then my job wasn't necessarily looking inwards onto the aircraft. My job was as the top cover with the LMG, I was the protection, I was looking outwards, yeah. And you and that, I suppose in that point there found it difficult because you you we always you look at you know in any given situation, any given circumstance, whether it's you know, exercise, deployment, wherever it would be, as situations happen, like nature was almost like we look in inwards because everyone just wants that you know warm fuzzy of just knowing what's happening. But I found it the struggle having been from the ops room, knowing something bad has happened, so then being there on the ground, then being one of the first people or you British troops on the ground at that time, yeah, but then having that mindset, but also that discipline point of no, I I can't look back because I've got to look out because there's people now in that area, yeah, and I know that it's been shot down, so I knew that there was threats out there, so that was my mindset was I had to keep looking out, and it was your very conscious efforts to almost shut off what was going on behind me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, nice. And what and how long had you been in theatre and before this happened?
SPEAKER_02I would say no more than less than a month. We were talking three weeks. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01So possibly by that time you you're as climatized as you're gonna be, and so you you fairly switched on. And and when you got to the crash site, was it did geography let you get in all round defence, or did you just point in the direction that you thought was the biggest sort of it was just the vehicle was just placed and you and the end it was quite you built up, you it was a you an urban setting.
SPEAKER_02So you're trying to look through different windows, trying to look on on rooftops and where we where we were, you know, we had a building that massively you overshadowed us, you so there could have been anything on the top. So again, constantly looking around. We did have some guys you know dismounted as well, you know, that were you looking around at various different points, yeah. Um, so I took upon myself not necessarily to worry too much about what was up above me. I was more looking out because I had you know the LMG looking in terms of what I was like, you know, understand now more as like the long threats, yeah, so to speak. So I was looking down the main carriageway, I was looking um through alleyways, not necessarily concentrating too much what was in the buildings because I don't think I could have had that much for it unless I physically saw something there. Yeah, I was more looking out into the depth, and again, coming from that pre-deployment training, even back then, and understanding you an RPG needs to be fired from a distance you for its arming distance and the like. So that I would probably say subconsciously was also playing in my mind because that's why I was looking so far out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, nice. That's good territory for the light machine gun, isn't it? Roads, alleyways, things like that, or it's found anyway. But I think um so that's really interesting. And was it and how deep were you into the city? Was it on the outskirts or no?
SPEAKER_02It was it was it was quite deep into the city. Um and one of the one of the points that we did have to contend with, and was that even though we had mutual support in what was with A Company and other um agencies that were on the ground, we had a massive stream, like waterway system you you think of you know, like a wadi but concrete purpose built, yeah, right in the middle, and that dissected straight through the middle of us. So even though we had that mutual support element on the ground, trying to get from place to place, you if there was you massive instances, um, that would have been a challenge because the vehicles couldn't have got through that.
SPEAKER_01No, it would have had to have been then you channelled in certain areas, aren't you? Yeah, then we would have been channelled through that as well. And I think for those listening that I mean Baja is I suppose the only place you can sort of for those that have travelled, uh, places like India, where the roads are just you know, there's no rules of the road as such, you know, they make up as they go along, and you know, the footfall is massive, um, and they're not really phased by the heat, so they're out all day, every day, aren't they? Yeah, so that's what I remember of it. The smells, the it's just loud as well, isn't it? And so, what was the dynamic of the the sort of civilian population after this crash?
SPEAKER_02Had they flocked to investigate or had they done a runner or um yeah, so there was a bit a bit mixed, so you'd have a lot of um the male popula just wanting to get around and involved. Yeah, so I would say some were probably trying to help. You know, I wouldn't say that everyone was there to take advantage, I would say there was definitely people there that wanted to try and help. That's a good point. Um but within that, noting that you there was then such this high British military presence. You the uh the women and children were also ushered away, and again, noting that as much as there was there people to help, there was always going to be this underlying potential threat that something could escalate, which I'll I'll carry out that earlier saying nothing did escalate further at this point, but um yeah, there was always that that underlying underlying threat.
SPEAKER_01So how long were you on the site for the crash site?
SPEAKER_02I was saying from from 12 to 15 hours, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We were on the ground for. And the blokes did alright, just it took a bit of low-level sort of management from the platoon staff, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it was and that was and that was it, you the platoons two staff that we had, such commanders, it was you constant, you getting around, you everyone alright, and it was the constant check-in, the constant cycle of that. You for me, you it was you I was the LMG gunner, so I knew there was points where I always you remember it, you know, there was a point where such commander you that point dragged me down from the top cover. Yeah. Um, because it was like that was you what I was doing, but we didn't have within the platoon at that point another LMG gunner within the video. Vehicle, they were spit on other vehicles just because of how we were spread out onto the ground. It's like, no, I need to be up there. But he was like, No, you if you don't gonna drink something or eat something, then you're not good to me. So that management side from them was was key. And that's again little things that I've like taken forward, yeah. You is how to manage people and look after people against their own interests sometimes.
SPEAKER_01That's great. And I I don't think there's anything more, I think it's more exhausting when you are waiting for something to happen and looking for something to happen. It's more exhausting doing that than it is actually fighting the enemy. Because actually, when you are as long as you win the firefight and you can control the battle, people can stop, they can have a break, you can rotate people, you can hold the ground as best you can. But when you're looking and expecting the worst, and I imagine something like that would just draw the attention. And I and I don't think correct me if we're wrong, but if I'm wrong, but unlike Afghanistan, you had no we couldn't we had we couldn't track the enemy, could we? We we couldn't really listen to what they were saying, or not at our level anyway, as green troops on the ground, whereas obviously in Afghanistan it was icon radio, so we could listen to what they were saying, and so their intentions were always unknown, weren't they?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, in Iraq there was there there was none of that. You and you we had some good interpreters with us that would you help and you you and they would you listen to conversation and try to pick up on little things and try to pass that across because they wanted to be of of use and you and make them useful, um, but yeah, there was none of that like icon. So again, it was all kind of like playing on kind of like the atmospherics and the like and so much become more more and more prevalent.
SPEAKER_01Becoming sort of yeah, really attuned to it as best you can. So the poachers would it's great that the poachers were fine in the ring of steel, you know, that would make me very comfortable, I think. So who went in and sort of got the bodies and did all the that sort of task?
SPEAKER_02That so I think that was a company from from memory, yeah. That wasn't for because again, because where that dissect was across the riverway, yeah, and that was um a company that went that went and sorted with that in terms of like um any kind of like yeah, casualt extraction, any kind of like physical evidence, yeah, protection, yeah, preservation, ready for it to be um the aircraft to be extracted from the ground. Um so yeah, so we didn't specifically get involved that I think that was um a company role.
SPEAKER_01And did they do any like denial of the aircraft or did they extract the whole thing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think they extracted from memory, they extracted a large portion of it. I mean, there might have been the odd little bit left over, but yeah, all like the what they would say is like the mission, yeah, sense of mission critical elements to the aircraft, yeah, the fuels arge and the like. I think they extracted as much of it as the comms kit and stuff like that. Yeah, all the comms kit, yeah. Yeah, that's grim, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It's like a so that's a bit of a sort of baptism of fire in the first month of the tour. I think it sort of reminds me, and you know, this is a story I forget about quite a bit, but I remember being in Kajaki the uh 2007, and we me and my platoon were up in the O in the mountains in the OPs, which was part of the rotation, which we won't go into, but we watched the Chinook helicopter get shot down out of the sky. It just luckily it just dropped off uh the Americans Task Force Fury in our AO, and then we patrolled down with them. And I always remember the effort and feeling completely helpless of sort of seeing the crash site, not being able to get involved, and then all night a Spectre gunship was just firing around it, and then the Americans come in and rescued their own. But um, I think there were three died there. But we patrolled down south some months later, and I remember crossing a small river, and my OC looked at me and went, mate, have a look at that. And I looked down and it was a propeller from the Chinook that they'd grabbed from the site and then they turned it into a crossing point, you know. Yeah, it's grim business, isn't it? Because you always you forget how vulnerable these things are that are floating, especially in a urban environment like Basrail, you know. Yeah, it's crazy. Sort of proper black hawk down kit, you know, and yeah. So I mean that was um so it was what was you say that's the first big incident on the tour as such.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd say that definitely the first big incident. So we'd done a you know one or two uh ops leading up to that point, um, where they were successful for us, and that's you where we earned the trust from the from the brigade commander. Yeah, but I'd say the first kind of like printed you impact that you or situation that had that printed um effect in terms of lasting memory was definitely that point. Because it because it, if nothing more, it brought home the real life, the realism, yeah, because nothing can prepare you for it until something like that happens.
SPEAKER_01I really want to talk about these uh strike-ups you were doing, but at the same time, I just want to with your knowing what you know now after approaching a full career, and I know you were only a private at the time. If you could look back and think of one thing that you and the company could have done better, what would it be if you could pick any holes in it?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'd probably just say just how we managed our people, yeah. Because I think you you like say 12 to 15 hours out on the ground, yeah. Um you hiring sight's great and wonderful, but I think you if there was a way of just better managing our people in terms of you were we in like the the best protection, where we best coverage, you if there was almost like a set of routine that we could almost have created to you keep ourselves effective, you combat effectiveness. Um I'd probably look at that. Um if I could put myself back there now. Um, and that would certainly be you know if we'd you the job that we were doing primarily was that there and then, but if we'd have then been retasked for something else, yeah, you know, how effective would we have been at that at that point to to continue and do another up? Yeah, potentially could have been questionable.
SPEAKER_01So I think, yeah, just that that's a really good point because being in the role you were in, it was you can change from A to B at the freaking switch, can't you? Yeah. We had a very similar instant where on telec 6 the year before, where um two SAS guys got lifted, uh, and they got compromised, got into a tear-up, and then they got captured by the Iraqi police. And for about half a day, it looked like C Company One World Angular were going to go in and rescue the SAS, which is amazing. It didn't happen, the SAS turned up, and the SAS rescued the SAS. But I remember being at one of the bridge sites, I want to say it's bridge sites free at the top of the city. If I remember, as you come into Bajra, my memory doesn't serve me that well with that. I'm sure it was bridge site free, or they were colours, I can't remember. And uh, we were holding there, and I think we were there for probably the best part of 24 hours, and then we got stood down. But on the way back, a tank had got gone over a salt plane, and we had to go and put a cordon around it, so we're out in the ground for another sort of 36 hours, and you know, and it's exhausting, isn't it? And the heat and everything, and your body armor was like a pressure cooker, and slowly baking you from the inside and out. But um, no, it's it's um yeah, good times.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's quite a that's quite a full-on instant the the number can a lot fluctuate in some of mine, but it was something between 62 and 67 strike operations that we conducted, and they would split whether it would be you our own intelligence that you and we were gonna go and act on something, it could be that we were working in conjunction with uh SF elements that were out there where we would do the search after they've done the strike. Uh, and there's a you know a couple of stories within that, something funny um and uh all the way up to working with other nations, so like Dambat, the Danish um battalions that were out there, um, and that was because their rules of engagement couldn't allow them to do certain things, so we would you facilitate within that. So, yeah, it's quite varied in terms of some of the stuff that we're doing, but it wasn't also then constrained just to within Basra when we were um working with the Damat, we literally went all over the place. There was a point where I think we were almost driving on the road for 18 odd hours to get to an area we you know hold up in an Australian base before then going off to doing an up. So yeah, it was yeah, man, and I can talk on one of those like as like a bit of an interest. So we'd gone out, and the way that the Danish worked is they couldn't do the search uh and the detention, but they could do the strike. Um, so that's where we came in. We would then do the search and then the detention piece for them, yeah. Um, but where they were okay, conscript unit, they would get better and better as um their deployment went on, and they were out there for like 12 months. Um one up in particular, they'd um it was a new unit, so they were quite fresh, fresh out the out the out in country. Um, and one of their things was they wanted us to wear orange silums and our helmets in the middle of the night, just so they could differentiate who was who when we was walking about. And I always remember you we were kind of like this is mental, and you remember you even me as a private soldier, we were all questioning it, like, and we were told you're right, you we've just got to do it. Um and at this point it was slightly structured differently in terms of the um the all batting of how it how it went. Um and we were end up being part of the inner cordon, even though we were getting ready to do um a search piece, and um there's just load of dogs kicking about, you know, and that's like their burger or lamb, if you like. And this dambat guy on a 50 cal decided to shut the dog up, so he did uh with the 50 cal, and it just all of a sudden it everything just erupted. There was just you gunfire night everywhere, but not specifically aimed at anyone, yeah. It was almost you just defending their own properties, and then you or you can almost say, like, out of a scene of you, some form of Star Wars movies for like all these orange siloums just got absolutely launched. Um one of the one of the uh one of the guys that we'd had, there was like it they put um like a spotlight to come on from one of the compounds, one of our guys just shot the spotlight out because again it just enveloped us. Um and then it always uh remembered the point where um there was some um combatants were moving around uh in the area trying to get to another building. Um, because what we could see from um like one of the like the uh ISR feeds that we that we did have that was feeding this information at the time was there was um they'd spotted a a building that you could get from one building onto our building from the rooftop. Yeah, right. Um but that roof that we were trying had a disco 50 cal enemy weapon system on the roof, yeah, um, which obviously limited how we could get our own air support into assist. And um, yeah, there's a couple of guys moving around that we think were trying to get into the other building so they could get onto the rooftop. Yeah, and um, yeah, one of the lads as he went to like engagement, like engaged them, had uh uh just like operated the trigger, weapon didn't work. So then me and uh two others, well, me and one other like pushed him out of the way, and we ended up having to engage them, yeah. Um which yeah, again, that sticks in memory. But that all started from what I would say is ill discipline, yeah, from the um from the from the Danish top cover. Yeah, there was no requirement to operate the weapon system and the weapon system that you had. Um, but yeah, that ill discipline is what created that event.
SPEAKER_01It's crazy how one thing can turn turn everything, isn't it? You can snowball a whole event. And how do you so we spoke about our ISR feed, which is intelligence surveillance reconnaissance feed, I think. Yeah. Um how did you do you have much success with them at? Were they up all the time? Were they overlapping, or were they only out on ops or yeah?
SPEAKER_02So from our point, they were from my point, I should say, um, only where ever was ever really aware of them on specific ops. Yes. Um, I'd say knowing what I know now, I would you experts say they were probably there more frequently than then they're not, whether it would be you a specific you playing us up that you get an intelligence, or whether it'd be some form of you other asset, whether it would be you know AH like a helicopter or whatever, you're providing some kind of overwatch, but then that would provide you the the feeds back, you and you we would get you videos and and the like of feeds, um, so we could then see you know what what had happened, and you know, there's one which actually from that up we were extracting out under fire, and uh one of the lads um who was a top cover in another vehicle fired a UGL round um into where we were being contacted from, um, but it didn't function at that point, and uh jokingly, you threw you banter uh was winding up saying that he'd fired a bat and round through his UGL because it didn't it didn't function, um but actually from the feed we could see it did function, but it functioned much later on. So whether it was a misfire and then you it then just sat on and then someone's moved it, disturbed it, or whatever. Uh but it had it did function later later on after we had extracted, um, and that was all captured on the yeah on the feed.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like in the in the years gap between 1st battalion and 2nd battalion being out of there, that like the feeds have matured quite a bit because a lot of the strike-ups we did, we were there's one that stands out in particular, which we won't go into in depth because it we're not used to talk about the first battalion, but we they led us on to completely the wrong house, and then as we were in the house arresting the wrong people, the bloke was getting in his car and driving away like four doors up, you know. And I remember being so frustrated. Um it sounds like it's it come a long way, and I think so, and the word strike is quite a tricky thing to explain to people, I think. So mainly when we talk about destroy, capture, clear, it's all very clear-cut, but strike is quite a uh it brings a bit of ambiguity to it. Were most of your raids to arrest people?
SPEAKER_02Uh yes and no. So we we had it freeze whether it be a strike op or an arrest op, and then we've got a lot of a bit of distinction in. So if we already had the evidence that we required, um, and that would fall. We did a few arrest ops, but a lot of our arrest ops that we did were in conjunction with some of the SF elements that we worked with. Um but we would go in, get them, detain them, that would then start the process of like their detention, and then we would just look to extract any additional like resource intelligence from there. Yeah, if it was a strike op, it would be we know this guy's a bad guy, we've got some evidence, but we need more, yeah, and then we would then go in, yeah, and um, that would then be like the distinction of that strike for us. We would then go in, segregate everyone, try and find some stuff. I would say 99.9 times out of a hundred, we would find stuff, and then that would then back up the intelligence that we've already got. We would then detain and then extract out. But not everyone that we went into, we we we detained, it would be very specific.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, quite a lot of dry holes. Where yeah, and and what sort of things were you finding?
SPEAKER_02So it'd be um you improvised components where it would be so like um an initiator, so you're where you're having like your commercial, military, and your improvise site sort of like uh initiators for like explosive devices, but that could be anything where it would be you a snapped bic pen packed with a little bit of um homemade explosive with a you a bit of a so detonator that called into it, so that would be then the detonators, like initiator up to like say military or civilian things. We'd we'd found you fully made devices um that were in case like expanding foam, so then that that was like a tactic so they could put that by the side of the road, and then you just wouldn't know what it was without full investigation because it would just look like a rock. Yeah, um, there was a time after an up where we're again we're under you an engagement, we're extracting out, and I'm got this bag under my feet, and I'm you know jumping up and stamping on it. Like, what is that under my feet? Get it out, get it out. The uh ash, when the guys looks into the bag, he absolutely like right stop, stop, stop. Everybody stop the patrol when he gets this bag out, just puts it out the back of the thing. Was like, right, we need to get that bag extracted. He's like, What goes? That's an IED, and I've literally just been jumping on an eye on an IED in the back of the back of the snatch, but we just got the evidence, but we had to we had to like extract out you, yeah, um, yeah, and it was just one of those, it was like something that was good to go, it just needed effectively put it into a power source, and that would have been armed good to go.
SPEAKER_01And you say so what 62-ish, say 60 throughout the tour. So we're averaging 10 a month. Was there a particular period where it you were doing like out every night sort of?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. Um, it got to a point where the whether it come you from the OC up to brigade or whether it came from the brigade down, um it got to a point where I think you we'd I'd say for you two, three-week periods, you know, we were out constantly, but it wasn't you I'd say for the the bulk of the company, it was fine because they would get in, you reset themselves, reset the vehicles, reset their ammunition, water, whatever, you know, ECM batteries, but they were sort of that. But the issue became for the search team, so for my section with my special commander at 2IC and the company start major, because he was our like search uh advisor. That's right, yeah um, we would be in the detention centre. So from the point of getting back at whatever point that was, to then leaving the detention centre where we were processing, we'd have to write statements, or the evidence had to get processed and attributed to the people that we brought in to make sure that kind of legal process was being followed. We would be in there for six, eight, twelve hours, and then before we know it, we're now resetting ourselves back to go again. Yeah, and it got to the point where more so it was, I'd say, us as a as the search element where it was kind of like right now, these need a point. And I mean we ended up, I'd say, after about you probably about three or four months in, so almost like halfway through the deployment, and it was kind of like right now, these these guys need a period, so it was then like 72 hours almost like enforced. It was like you don't really see you in the gym, the only place we want to see you is cookhouse, you washing, like laundry, yeah, ablution ablutions, or in your pit. Like that's the only place we want to we want to see you. Yeah, because it was just that that point of you you you are you you are doing the job that we're tasked to do, you're the you the focal point for it. If you can't do your job, there's no point. There's no point. I always remember a point where we were you so chin-strapped, like I always stood outside and I you and I think there was a point you where you I'd fell asleep standing up, yeah. You and I say you couldn't sound major, you know, as big and as scary as he was, there was a point where he coming to me, he put his hand on my shoulder, and he was like, just stick with it, we'll be out of here in like next five-ten minutes, just you stick with it, we'll be we'll be out of here soon. And it was like that reassurance part as well that you yes, yeah, I was on ops, I was you doing what doing you know, I was there to do a job, I'd fell asleep. Yeah, you you could look at the you the the letter of the law within that, yeah, but actually there was the human side to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's it, mate. You know, you're a human being. I think it's a really good um I think back to some of the things what we got our people to do, and I always think back to when I was a platoon sergeant and we were in Kenya doing PDT before Heritage 6, and I pushed the bloke so hard, you know, to the point where one of them we had to aeromed. Luckily, not to the point where only because he was working hard and I didn't and I let him work hard, you know. I I was good at managing the people, but then when you get into a rhythm of one thing after the other, I think it's very easy. And you're right, when you've got a specialist team like the search team, who it's not just blokes that have been dicked to looking cupboards and stuff, it's you know, you've gone away and you've qualified, and you know, you know what you're looking for more so than than the other blokes on the ground, and you're right, it's that legal piece, you know, you've got to get all that documentation right. Um and you're right. I remember my well, my my company site major Dave Granfield was a search lead, and we were we had a search team as well, and everything was based around them, you know. You had to give them the time, space, resources to operate, and they were always really successful, you know. And it's amazing, isn't it? How one little, like you said, half a big pen can bang someone to rights, you know. You haven't got that for you know, you haven't got that for no reason, it's there to do ill purpose. But um, and were many of your jobs SF led, or were they just coming out with you? Were you working off their intelligence?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so we were working off their intelligence. Um I would say you in terms of like the inner workings of the planning, yeah, yeah, as you expect, you're talking you OC, Twice C could we something major, maybe the platoon commander, platoon sergeant, could have like involved in that, and then we would then get the back brief from you our platoon staff. Um, we would uh I think we'd have like two or three times where we were in their compound on an on for orders. I think that was just because of the severity of what we what we were after. But then going back into what we said before about like the ISR feeds, like there was a point there where even you within like you, DSF community, and as good as you and as you quality as they are, there was one point you where. You they'd set the charge, we're all good to go, and then you message comes out, yeah. We were at the wrong house, and then we had to go the next street over, yeah, set ourselves up again, and it was like, right, we haven't got time now for the explosive charge. It's like, right, yeah, where's the shotgun? Oh, I've left it at the last house. So then they've had to then run back round to go get it. Human beings, yeah. Again, human beings, yeah. And then you again bit of a you bit within that, you I was then like the point man within the the search team, ready to kind of like go in behind. And he you the guy cut turns round to me and goes, right, as we go in, anyone you anyone you see, if them if they're moving around, they've got a weapon system, just engage them. And I'm like, okay, it's got like platoon command almost like that angel on my shoulder, yeah, was like going in there, and he was like, Well, I'll go in just in front of you. Yeah, because again, it was that kind of like that that human factor piece of it. He was just like, right, he would then be that that that kind of like buffer for me, so I wasn't necessarily putting myself in a position, yeah, that where I could have got myself into trouble, potentially.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, you make a good point there, and and you meant you alluded to the point earlier that you know, um, in Iraq and certainly in Afghanistan, people are allowed to own weapons to protect their own property. So, I mean, it's the ultimate decision making when you think about it. You know, you go into someone's house, yeah, either by a hole in the wall or through the door, and you've got to make that call as to whether or not they're a wrong or they are defending their home. And it I think these things can be very clear, and you'll normally pick that up when you're by the atmospherics before you go in there. Um, yeah, so it's it's it's tricky, really tricky call. And I think that um, yeah, it's um and it's a mad when you think about what the British Army does or it did when we you go on a six-month deployment, you don't really start learning the place, and like you said, you're all over fit rather than just working an estate, like you know, we used to do in Northern Ireland or whatever it used to be, and even then it would take you four or five months to get your head around somewhere and say that's not right, you know, something's not quite right here. So it's almost like we self-arm in the British Army. We give us some when other units and other nationalities deploy for a year. I get it completely. You know, you are going to be at the peak, you know, you'll know the minute something's not right. So it's a real credit to our people that you know, you as a young private and others that are with you are making those calls, you know, straight away, like immediately after an event. Yeah, I find it really interesting. It's a real credit to the British Army. You know, we almost self-harm by going in for such short periods of time. You might say, well, six, seven months isn't it's not a long time at all. No, you know, when you think about it, it's a quarter of an E-type posting, you know, it's mad. Um, yeah, that's good, that's really interesting. So let's just go back to the strike ops again and any others that sort of really resonate and stick out to you. So if you if you're down a pub and we're having a beer and you want to tell me a good dit, a good story, where would you go?
SPEAKER_02So I've got um I've got two, one kind of goes in a in a in a positive way, one kind of like um goes into a bit more of a darker, but actually they are the same strike op. Yeah, um, and again, it so it started off with um an SF element out to do um uh an up, but we we needed to, or this guy was needed, but he knew that people we were coming after him, so it was a sense of right, go this way, but if you go this way, you are going to get ambushed, go the longer way, and you run the risk of losing him.
SPEAKER_01Um and what's what's sorry, but what's what's the basis for you? Did they know that there was an ambush out or yeah, yeah, they knew that they knew that there was an ambush there, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02Um and and it and again, I can assume that had to come through some form of intelligence. Uh and the OC that we had at the time, uh, he made a decision, no, we're gonna go the short way, we get ambushed, we get ambushed, we'll we'll we'll deal with it. Uh, and then yeah, we got out, and as we started going through, we were like, Well, we're purposely driving into an ambush. This is pretty mad, but also at the same time, you as being you that soldier, it was also like also means I'm gonna get to use my weapon system. Yeah, you so there was you, there's like kind of like the dark side to it, but also like the human side to it going right, we're actually driving into an ambush. Um, and yeah, and then the way that they um initiated the ambush, and it was yeah, and it it happened as we went through, they just they basically effectively fired a barrage of RPGs, either like left and right, if you like, front and back of the convoy, and that's what initiated the ambush. So, you what we would look at, what we do in terms of you we initiate an ambush, you yeah, a machine gun, you know, squeeze of leg machine gun firing, or maybe it's a claymore data name, whatever, but they did exactly the same thing, they just used RPGs just on either end. Um, but what that did, it made us stop. Um, if I remember correctly, I think the part of the thing was that we were going to drive straight through. Yeah, um, that's kind of like anti-am ambush kind of like drill, but because of where they'd fired the RPGs, it was kind of like right, do we go forward? Is this going to be more of an issue if we drive forward? Um, so we ended up being fixed. Um, yeah, and then and then as I was in the top cover, I was actually facing like initially away from the ambush. Um, I say out into the open ground, yeah, um, where we had all the buildings and all that onto the right, and uh it was just like just quick you tap on the shoulder from the guy that was behind me, and he dropped down. I just swung around, and then I had like I think there was like I don't know, eight, nine rooftops, and it was just tracer coming one way, as we then started like re-engaging, going back the other, and it felt like we were there for 20-30 minutes. I think actually, in reality, we were probably only there for I don't know, five, six minutes, but it felt like yeah, it felt like uh an age you know, I was in engaging back onto um specific route to Company South Major. He'd got out of his vehicle and he was kind of like then running like on the you safe side, if you like, but still running from vehicle to vehicle, and he was you know breaking down the vehicles where he wanted us to engage, yeah. So he did that far support piece, if you like. Yeah, um, so we then so you gave us like our own like sectors to engage, yeah. So yeah, so I I had my vehicle was the rear vehicle, so then you had South Major's vehicle was just the one behind, and they're all snatches, like all snatches, yeah. So yeah, so we're engaging. Um, yeah, we had you, and it was like their own new PKM RPKs, you 47s, uh RPGs, the lot flying. Luckily, no vehicle took uh an RPG strike. Yeah, um, we took no casualties, and I I think I don't know, uh I think part of this action is what led into the UC getting his MC part of and there was probably other factors that within that as well. I think this was one of the contributing factors. Um, and then there was a point where I just looked to the right because I could just hear rumbling, and then a just column of uh warrior come streaming down. So again, it was you like say planned, you know, resource coordinated. Yeah, you know, I don't know, six, seven, eight warrior come down. They then provided that iron iron curtain if you like in front of us. Yeah, turrets turned round and just started smashing rooftops with 30 mil heads round, that's fired on the curve, but yeah, and then and then we extracted out, you know. We'd say we took no casualties, no vehicle, like no vehicles were disabled. Um, we come off, did the op that we needed to do, got the guy that we're that we were after, um, and um we then took that as as a success, yeah. Uh, and then where it kind of then flips around and kind of starts to go the opposite way uh in terms of I don't want to say bad decision making, but you know, it's for people's own interpretation. There's like the SF guys at that point were like, right, we're done, we know he's got another um building. Like he was this guy that was after is actually a doctor, and it's like we know that this guy that we've got after is got other buildings, that there might be more stuff, but we're happy with what with what we've got, and whether it was a decision that ROC made or a decision that was made by hire, it was decided that we were then gonna go strike this other building. Um and it was in an aerical calm alley, not a good place to go at any time being British military, let alone at 3 0 3 30 in the morning. By the time we would got there, we would have been approaching 0-5, so call to prayer, not the best place to be uh at any at any stretch of imagination. And like I said, by the time we got there, people were starting to get out, get up, and get out. We'd then got into done a strike onto the building, and actually we didn't find anything. Um, but I just remember the search team being inside the building. We've got the uh we had a female clerk with us who we she used to come in every so often to do some of the searches for the females if we didn't have any other females with us, whether we were police medics or the like. Um, and I just remember looking out of the building at a point, and I'd say there was hundreds, thousands of people out outside the front of this building, and it was like this is absolute mayhem. Um and that then led into uh a blue and blue incident um which I'm not gonna go go into because that's not my that's not my story to tell, yeah, and and I won't mention any any names because I say it's that's not for me to to to get into, but you like say contributory factors, um and then got to the point where we then had to extract um and you I've got I'm carrying I'm having to carry the LMG by its carry handle, so not the correct way to carry the weapon system because that handle was just to remove the barrel, but I've had to carry the weapon system by by that handle and literally arm round the um the clerk that we had because she was scared with the amount of people that was there. I'm not the tallest of people, but she was shorter than me. Um, and she was very overwhelmed. So, again, trying to extract out through there, and it got to the point where I all I remember is then get into a vehicle, couldn't say if it was my vehicle. We put her inside, my gun got took off me, and then what I was then given back was a shield and a button, and it's like, right, we need to you to get into a baseline, we need to fight our our way out of here. Um, and I'd say the only reason and way we actually managed to get out without sustaining more casualties was at the point with the blue and blue where we're then extracting those casualties. Um that's where like the cultural elements will come into play, yeah. Um, because they allowed us, I'll I'll use that that phrase to get the uh the casualties out of the dwelling that we were in, on into a back of a uh a snatch, which a mate of mine had to drive a snatch and with the casualties in the state that they're in to the helicopter, got them out of the vehicle onto onto the helicopter, onto the merck for them to be extracted, and then that went off. But again, it was by having those casualties was how we were able to get out of there.
SPEAKER_01What sort of casualties did you have?
SPEAKER_02We had two Brit casualties, both uh KIA through the blue on blue.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. But what what unit were they? Can you remember?
SPEAKER_02Uh they were Devon and Dorset, DDLI.
SPEAKER_01Right, okay. And it was small arms or yeah, small arms. Yeah, okay. I think for the record, I mean that that's I mean that's a crazy day out, isn't it? Yeah. I think um and I'm gonna just come back at you what how I see it and not like it's subjective, and clearly I wasn't there, you know, and and I hope you don't take offence to it. But so I sort of in my mind, I firstly the blue on blue is a very realistic thing, you know. I think in the confusion of any conflict, especially when you're urban, oh, it's so easily done, you know. And and it's funny because when you're a young lad, you sit there watching war films like Blackhalt Down and all the rest of it, you're picking holes and everything, like you're some sort of war expert. But when you get out there, it's so easily done. Um you know, the the Vikings have experienced their own versions of that numerous times, uh, some more extreme than others, but um I've even almost done it myself, actually. That's another dip for another story, but um another day. But um, it's tricky, and I think so. It sounds to me like I think Eurosy made the right decision to go through the ambush from what limited knowledge I've got. Um, I'm just seeing if there's anything in front of me, but um because ultimately it's about the mission, isn't it? Yeah, you know, risking him, and we are trained to deal with counter ambush stuff, and you know, it's very uncomfortable. Um, so ballsy shout, and it sounds like the plan worked well, the warrior coming and giving you that that wall, and it also sounds to me like, well, while we're here and we've got a foot in the door, we may as well go on to B. We've done A, you know. We've do he I must have been quite uncomfortable going in with no orders, no rehearsal, yeah, no exact knowledge of where he is. So, yeah, I I can get that being really uncomfortable. But the risk is, I guess, if you then go back, plan for that, they're gonna be better prepared, yeah, and those ambitions would be more effective. So big shout, huge leadership shout, but ultimately mission success. Am I right in? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like I say, like a look back, you like the ambush bit in itself, you yeah, it you looking back, I say like we are there to take risks, yeah. And that's the nature of being infantry, yeah. You we you yeah, you we're there to take the risks, yeah. You we're at the that frontage edge, you and that's why we've chosen to do to do this job. So yeah, yeah, if if that's that's the mission, you always say you mission comes first in any situation, and you and you he was a critical target that we were after, and you and the the planning and coordination, obviously 100% you made made it work. Yeah, um did I I I only look back, and again, you know, this could be you know my ignorance, my lack of understanding, you know, being that soldier, and you but looking back now, I suppose it's just that it was the decision for this second strike, yeah, that has always played in my mind, yeah, because I do I do vaguely remember like there being like conflict between like between elements on the ground as to what why are we doing this, yeah. And I think that was and also then the contribute factor obviously to what happened after.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I find that really healthy because you do need people to question people, you know. Um it's it's tricky, mate. And look, well, I wasn't, I was back in the UK living my living my best life, but um I think um yeah that that's a fascinating day, mate. And I I didn't know about any of that, you know. And that's this goes back to my point about as a regiment, we're very humble. Yeah, you know, if so if you could your LMG, were you firing belt or magazines?
SPEAKER_02Uh belt. So yeah, so it was all belt fed. You had you it was really so I had like 100 round like soft pouches, yeah. I had 200 round soft pouches. Um, I was forever trying to get the 200 round hard boxes, like the plastic boxes, because what I'd find that with the one with the 200 round um bags, I'd get so many stoppages. That's one of my picture, yeah. Because they would because the they were so soft they like the rap the belts would get twisted. Yeah, whereas little hundred round ones I used to used to love them because I used to always you know have it on the on the gun because that would be my initial kind of like you know engagement piece. Um and like if if you know patrolling, you I would I would prefer to have them on. Yeah, um, well, I would prefer to have the 2001 on, but in the hard box because I knew I'd have that you extended you fire support, but I would have to put the small ones on because I didn't like the softer 200 ones, and then we did have magazines, but that that was like emergency use only, and I and I never really had to use them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I remember we had no end of issues with them soft bags, and I think we the guys used to go around Shiber speaking to the Americans, yeah, trying to rob these boxes off them. Um yeah, it's interesting that so that hadn't changed in that year, but not that we fired much on on our tele tour to be honest. But Herrick, we learned a lot of lessons about them. But um mate, that's fascinating. That that's a that's a great story, uh, and loads of learning points to come out of it. So out of that, so how over what period of time was that was that a day, 36 hours, those two ops back to back, so ambush into second position?
SPEAKER_02Uh that was hours, yeah. Yeah, so you from you going in say uh early morning for the first strike, and then as that second strike came in, yeah, we then you into that you uh early morning, yeah. So you're talking you no morning, you six to eight hours. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Working day, yeah, working day in the office, crazy. Um if you could pick if you if again keeping the head on now that that you you know you know it I'll rephrase that. So with the head you've got on now, and the more sort of broadly experienced you are. If you could think back to that day and take away, give me two things that you really learnt that you sort of took forward, if any, from so I'd say definitely communication we won.
SPEAKER_02I think if there was you a wider discussion, not necessarily it needs to be a discussion, that might be a poor poor phrase, but you we're going to do this because of this, we're gonna go do that because of that. Um you maybe that would have been it would have been good and having that you got communication like up and down. Uh, if there'd been um communication in terms of you maybe uh making the you people understand more like the ambush side, why we're going to do it, it was we're gonna drive through the ambush, and it was kind of like left left at that, so it was kind of like that more. This is why we're gonna do it. You the mission success relies on this, other agencies are relying on this to do this because you the um the SF guys were were doing another route, so again, they if I look at it now and understand more now, you know, we were there, yes, going that ambush route, yes, it was more dangerous, but actually, we were creating a distraction and a diversion which enabled the other guys to get in, but again, it's that communication. So, I say definitely the communication side um would be the main point within that. Um, and then in terms of another point, trying to think if there is anything like lesson learned. Um I say this loosely in terms of maybe like situational, but maybe cultural awareness because again, you if I look at you, nothing wrong with doing that second strike, but if I look at the timing, the physical timing of doing a strike in an area that's not the most receptive to the British operating in that type of area anyway. Uh, but we're doing a strike at you 0-5 in the morning. There's a lot of people out, you called to prayer and all that, and all that. So you was it the best time now. Again, you I don't know the ins and outs of this specific sort of the mission, the mission critical stuff, and how that was played back out, but maybe that could have then linked back into that first point in terms of the communication.
SPEAKER_01That's a good shout. I think, and again, as you I think you only pick up on it as you go through your career, but the power of the why, and just telling the blokes, look, I don't particularly like this, but this is why we're doing it, and it's that moral piece, and it best prepares them because it could be something as simple as look, we're gonna drive, we think there's an ambush here waiting for us, we're more than equipped, we've got you know, 100 blokes from Lincolnshire and all the rest of it that are up for a fight. We're better trained than them, we've got the weapon systems, you know. Um, it sounds mental, but actually it's a tactical manoeuvre. And when you think about it, um, you did uh Herrick, didn't you? Herrick Taws. That's all it was walking to ambush, you know, advance into contact. You had to do that to illuminate him to then kill him. You know, you can't kill what you can't see, as they say, but um, it's a tricky sell to the blokes. Yeah, but I think the more infigate the more information that you give people, the better they can prepare, and that can be anything from you know preparing your LMG ammunition better, your GPMG ammunition better, whatever it might be. So, yeah, and it's it's a big thing, and I think you certainly get better at it as you go through your career. That's what I found anyway. You know, um blokes don't want to be mushrooms like like the Somme. You know, um when we say trapped like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on shit, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well it's so you say that because that was our platoon motto for that deployment, right? I mean our platoon t-shirt had that phrase and it had two mushrooms on it. All right, it's funny it's funny you say that.
SPEAKER_01So before you fix the problem, you had a t shirt made. Yeah, nice. But you think back to the song, right? We're gonna go over the top at one in the morning. Why are we doing that? Because we're in Talty. Oh, great, all right. Not because we're pushing the line back or whatever it might be, you know. And again, I say that very crudely. Um, I'm sure there was plenty of that going on, but yeah, it it's tricky, and I've found that in Sydney Street. You know, people just want to know why you're asking them to do certain things. Things and then all right, I get it now.
SPEAKER_02But that's the thing. So we recruit from society, and that is you the society that we're in now. When you look at today's generation, you know, you I don't want to say back in my day, but you know, in time before it would be we're gonna do this, yeah, because we're doing it, yeah. Whereas now, you as we've developed and we you and we understand whether it's so the emotional intelligence side or just you people's own intelligence, academic intelligence, it's people just want to know why, yeah. And I think that's very key now in terms of you know challenge, make the challenge, but understanding the why, but then someone's still got to make that decision at the end of it. Yeah, but I think soldiers nowadays are more will be more inclined to do whatever is after of them, in whether it's you good, the bad, the safe, the dangerous, but as long as they understand the why, yeah, I think and that's what I think that's what everyone everyone wants and needs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and you're right, you know. I um I'm one of these that keeps a journal, and I used to do it loosely back in the day, and I kept a bit of a diary on some of the tours, and I always used to make myself when you see your mates, you see them in passing on a tour somewhere, and you're like, Yeah, stay safe, mate. And I always used to make me laugh because the British infantry isn't there to stay safe, it's there to operate against you know, using tactical risk um and and calculated risk, and you know, and if you think back to the banter that the infantry gets that cannon for all this nonsense, absolutely not. What you're asking people to do, the risk that you ask them to calculate and execute on is incredible. I've always found it so interesting. Um, and it's that whole analogy of um, look, I want you to come with me, we're gonna do something sketchy, don't ask any questions. All right, who's driving? I think I'll forget what film that's from, but I love it. Yeah, and that's what it's like. But um, and we do a thing called advanced to contact that's mental on its own, you know, just walk to you, get shot at, you know, and turn the you know, turn the battle in your favour. But yeah, there is a bit more to it than that, and uh yeah, it's really interesting. That's that's a fascinating story. I I didn't know any of that had really happened. Um so let's park strike ops because I imagine a lot of them are are sort of quite similar. What other sort of standout memories have you got of that tour uh you know ops and yeah?
SPEAKER_02So one that come comes to mind um is you start a light any other day, you not really know you what ops we're gonna come into next, and the next thing it's like right pack everything, Bergen's the lot, we're we're going into Alamara, um basically this the city's fallen, um, and it's on fire, and we're gonna take it back. And we're like, okay, what does this mean? And it's like you think you we're gonna go have a fight, have a bit of war fighting, um, and you you've got to take water rations for up to five days minimum before like we'll get any kind of replen. My LMG was taken, and I was presented back a GPMG. Is that an upgrade or a downgrade? It's clearly an upgrade. Yeah, clearly an upgrade. Um, and I was it was like, right, yeah, cool, fantastic. And then we all loaded onto um some Merlin helicopters, and we're all there and we're flying off, and I just remember sat there again being the um the gunner. I knew I was going to be the first one off the helicopter. I had the platoon sergeant sat opposite me, you know, and the whole way around, you you know, I can you remember him, you kind of like just you you just like giving me thumbs up, you know, like g me up, so to speak. Because again, you and I could see it in in his face, I can remember it, you know, that kind of like look of apprehension. So if he was looking like that, you'd you wouldn't see what I was looking like, and you know the lads around us. Um yeah, and we've we were flying around and you're and we've flown over over the city, you know, and it is you there is things on fire at this smoke anywhere anywhere and everywhere. Um I'm not sure if it was I can't remember if it was my helicopter or if it was the one that was flying next to us, but one of them started engaging with the machine gun out the back. So again, it was kind of like it was like settling in, you know, this this is real, and I was like proper, you know, setting myself, and I remember um just like thinking thinking to myself like what state is my is my gun in, and then I remember that you we had to for whatever reason we had to um you make the gun safe getting onto the aircraft, and then I then and I remember shouting across like when when do I make ready? Yeah and he was and he was just like he was like what I said when do I make ready? And he was like, Why are you not ready? And I was like, We've got time to make the gun safe, we've got all the rifles were made ready, but it was just it was just the rule rule for the for the gun, and he was like, just just do it now. So I remember cocking the gun and one of the you like the loaded guys, he just like shot me a look, but he just whether he just didn't dare say anything or whatever, like he didn't he didn't correct me, he he shot me a look to say shouldn't be doing that. Um and then yeah, we've we've circled around like the area, and it's you it's just come back, you're right, right, yeah, we're landing in like two minutes, right? We're landing, landing, and as we've landed, you know, all we know is we're landing in what was an Iraqi army base, it's been deserted, all the army have absconded, they've they've left, and you know that's going to be our like holding base ready to open the gates and and and launch from. So you and I'm you I'm I'm ready, I'm anticipating you some form of engagement. Anyway, come in and we land, got my bergen on one shoulder, I've got you carrying my GPG and I'm running out, and as I'm running out, I've said you to sergeant as we're getting ready to go, because I could see a sanger that was and the front gate, the main gates were open. So I said, right, I'm gonna run to that sanger, I'm gonna get into that sanger where I can put the gun. And he was like, Yeah, sounds great, go and do it. So we've landed, and literally, as the tower gates come down, my foot's hit the deck, and I'm running. And as I'm running, I'm looking to my right hand side, and everyone is just walking off the plane behind me, and there's just a load of Iraqis playing football. So I've now stopped because I'm now thinking, are we in the wrong place? Like, like what is going on?
SPEAKER_01Tickets for this match, yeah.
SPEAKER_02All the Iraqis just like looking around, like, you know, what's going on? Um you say Iraqis, civilians, no, Iraqi military. Oh, right, right. Yeah, Iraqi army, sorry, yeah. Um, and they're just playing football in the in the in the camp. Um, so we've all then you helicopters, they've got up, you've done a bit of extracted swivel now, like there, and um you know our OC goes off and speaks to you whoever's there, whoever will listen, and uh it basically turns around that they hadn't extract, they hadn't, they've just basically refused to go on the ground, right? Um and it it was then deemed that where they'd refused to go onto the ground, like ah then mission profit then just stops right right. You're not gonna go out and fight anyone, you're basically just gonna stay in this camp, and then as they then start to push out, then you'll go out and support them. Um there was a Royal Marine lieutenant colonel who had left that camp before whatever his role was. Um, I don't know whether he'd gone back to the UK or whether he was elsewhere in the country, but they had to fly him back to this camp because he was like the liaison officer for like the commander of this base, and he basically had to get in there and grip him and basically say, like, you need to get your guys back out on the ground. Um, and then at the point of that all happening, load of you leader engagements had taken place with various different people, and then it was kind of like allowed that the Iraqi army could go back into the city to you know man the checkpoints and like, but we were not were not allowed to go into there, so we ended up sat in this Iraqi army camps just sat and sleeping in corridors, you know, or whatever for three, four days without and then you the anticlimactic of actually.
SPEAKER_01But I'll tell you what, mate, that's a real the anticlimactic thing is a real I always think back to that film uh Jake Goodold, was it Jarhead? Jarhead where he's a sniper and he they keep getting locked onto Target and then stood down. And I remember watching that years ago before I did anything kinetic, thinking, yeah, that's a real problem. But then when I when we did the jam yat thing where the SAS guys got lifted and we were gonna go and rescue them, and we got turned off. Well, I we got turned, I say we got turned off, a chinick came down from Baghdad and all the Hereford blokes got off it. I was like, oh I know what this means, we're not going in. And it's a real thing because trying to keep your blokes motivated, you know, and and then next it's the boy cry wolf, I guess. Almost I mean, stand stand to stand to stand down, stand to stand to stand down. Oh right, stand to, yeah, all right, whatever. No, we're going. Oh right. And it's sort of a real it's a real challenge to keep the mindset in the right places. But I bet that must have been really frustrating. Well, how did you were you frustrated? Were you relieved or a bit?
SPEAKER_02I'd say both, yeah, definitely a bit of both. Yeah, as much as you there was that apprehension of you, right, we're gonna go and you physically fight some people. There was almost that that element of relief because there's almost that you again that that human factor of we're not having to go, yeah, put ourselves in that position where we're having to engage someone, but also you we're not putting ourselves in that position where as much as we're engaging, we're almost at that point of I've now got to potentially extract my friends because they've now become injured, or I'm gonna get injured, someone's gotta extract me. There was that kind of like um yeah, that safety point within that. That it was like, right, yeah, the relaxation of we're not actually doing that, yeah. As much as it was we really thought we were gonna do that and we'd built ourselves up, it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That it's a weird feeling, isn't it? It's a really, really weird feeling. It's like um your balance of adrenaline is all over the place, isn't it? Uh it's exhausting because you g yourself up to do these things. And Alamara is where you know another regiment from our division shed a lot of blood there, didn't they? Yeah, PWRR, Simic House, wasn't it? They defended sort of a similar sketch to the parachute regiment in Sangham, wasn't it? Sort of put on the ground and then defended it, and then we had the Danny Boy contact. Well, we I'll say we as a division, we did that, and there's some great work going on there, clearly. That's its own story, like you say. So, so what happened after that? Was it then it strapped back down to Bajra?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, strapped back down to Bajra. Um, conducting various different ops. There was a point where we were trying to target um whether it be mortar teams, um, ID and placement teams, and that had um massive influences on our rules of engagement. Um we had other elements across the platoon and the company, we were doing what's called up eagle, so they'd basically get put into a helicopter flown around and they'll just get dropped off somewhere again, and that was all to interdict um like mortar teams, mortar baseball play teams. We had instances where we would not necessarily on drops, but we would just patrol the city and be there to respond if as and when people needed anything. So it is where the uh KRH King's Wars they had um an IED strike, um, and then we basically went to them to provide a bit of a cordon just so they could extract. Um, they denied their vehicle, um, but they'd left ammunition inside of it, so when that started cooking off, we initially thought we were in contact, but it was just the ammunition from inside the vehicle. But that's a that's a real thing, isn't it? Yes, it is, yeah. Um we did one thing called um Sinbad up Sinbad, um, and that was where we had um the engineers were doing like regeneration projects, whether it would be going to orphanages, going to schools, putting on doors, painting windows, setting up classrooms, and like so we would then just provide the outside security, just those, but that was a more of a softer posture, yeah. Um, within that the issue with that softer posture became that the TRF became a signature, yeah, right. Um and we would find at points, even though we were trying to do the CIMIC tasks, uh you know, and trying to be positive, um, as soon as they saw the Bedfordshire TRF, yeah, the Bumblebee, it was our ladder man, and then that became a thing. Yeah, so anytime they saw us onto the ground, they thought we were out to arrest or detain someone, yeah, right. Because our vehicles had um ladders on, because we'd put our own ladders on. So if we needed to get into buildings, yeah, um, we had the equipment, but then what because of that, what we then one of the things we had to do was every snatch that went onto the ground had a ladder, so they didn't know who was what and who was going where. Yeah, um, yeah, they could pick up the TRF they saw if they might more assume, but even like um Free A artillery that were on out there when they would go out and their vehicles, every other vehicle would just have a ladder attached to it. Just again, it was just it wasn't just sold at us being targeted, but you know, I'd say two years later going back to Iraq um and they saw the TRF, I was called a ladder man really two years later. So again, it it resonated and it and it stuck with people. Yeah, that's crazy. But that's but because of what we were doing and how we were associated with then some of the local population when we were trying to do some of this simitar stuff and provide you that sexual engineers doing jobs, people were a little bit like hesitant to talk to us whatever, because as soon as they saw the TRF, they would just think that we were there to arrest someone.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's like when you think again you think about it, that's another crazy, not just a British way, but within a six-month period, you're going from taking doors off hinges and arresting people to repairing schools and all the rest of it. You know, we keep we constantly trying to do the right thing, you know. And that's in a reserve sort of strike role that you're in, you know, in a strike company, but then you did in doing CIMIC tasks. It's it's a real you experience so much in a short period of time, don't you? It's crazy. I always think back to so the Vikings did, I think there was a second ever deployment to Afghanistan, not Fingle 1, which is 2002, not long, about five months, I think, after 9-11 had happened, we were on the ground confused, not knowing where Afghanistan was. Uh, and I remember doing a raid onto a Kabul University with A Company, I think, A Norfolk Company, and I was a sniper attached, and we were going through this building like a dose of salts, pulling off the doors and windows, trying to get into rooms. And I remember the last room we got into, there was a bloke in there, got the interpreter. What are you doing here? Oh, I'm here fitting doors and windows. Right, don't come out of this room for half an hour, mate. You're gonna be really annoyed, but yeah, it's it's crazy. You can go from one minute to doing something very kinetic to trying to do the right thing and win the populace over six months, is long enough. I don't think you know. Um, two other things I want to talk about. Uh R. When did you go on R?
SPEAKER_02Uh August. So it August of 15th was the day that I felt, which is like a bit of a weird date in itself because through various different operational deployments, through luck more than anything, August of 15th just seems to be when I go on R and R, or when I out on um out in uh Afghanistan working with the uh Americans. I ended up ended tour on the 15th of August, so it's just a very weird, very weird date.
SPEAKER_01Were you married at the time or no?
SPEAKER_02I was at the point of uh taking out I was you single, I was I had my 21st birthday in uh in Bajwa City, uh in in contact in Bajwa City, which again was you surreal. So when I look back, you you you know and I look across you 21 people that are 21 years old today, yeah, you look at how you the world has changed and how could my society's changed you look at my uh my my 16 year old, you look at him and it's kind of like you yeah, you if I put myself in his shoes, but then five years later, what do I see him doing in five in five years' time?
SPEAKER_01It's crazy, isn't it? Most people nowadays are drinking light A's wearing crocs on the 21st, and there you were in Badra. That's great. I love that. Um and how did you I suppose the reason I find RR an interesting thing because I I never enjoy R because I just want to get back, you know. How did you feel?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so I don't remember too much about travelling home. I remember more a different um well, I might be confusing it with coming back from um 12, but I they remember um yeah, just like coming back being you picked up at or again um driven to Turnhill from uh from Bry's and then you getting on a train and just being at home for two weeks. And I didn't do a lot of things. The first I'm I remember the first night back I had was an old school friend of mine, it was his um what would have been his 22nd or 23rd birthday because he was in my school yeah, but he was you know a year a year older. Um I just remember being out in Northampton on that first night back, you know, and I'd had a few beers like for the birth of that, but I just had the the principle. I ended up leaving early because I was like had that point of as much as I wanted to be there for him, and there was a lot of like the school friends and that and it, but there was people like like they knew I was in, you know, I mean they knew I'd been to point, they knew I'd just come, I I'd come back, you know, for a period of leave. But you you they were asking me like my experiences and what I'd seen and what I'd done, and you know, no, there was a few things that I was you saying, oh like I've done this, done that, but I could just see like a almost like a glazed over it crystal, they just couldn't put themselves into that position, and then you know, and this people said, Oh, like you going through the school, whatever, like oh, I would have had no kind of like idea that you that you could have done that or you would do that, and it's like, well, you being in the army always you what I wanted to do, like going through like my GCCs, going into doing like a sixth form, you going into the army was always you what I wanted to do. It was just a matter of when, not if, yeah, so to speak. Um, but I just found myself like in that point there, just like not necessarily not not enjoying the company. I just found the company awkward, yeah. But like I say, there was that point where I was you I was having a few beers, and then as I was talking, I was then thinking back you I was I think one of maybe one or two from the platoon that had gone on to R and R, so the bulk of the platoon was still deployed, yeah. Um, not long before um going on to R. Trying to think if this was before or after, we'd had uh an instance where we'd gone out on an up, we're following some um warrior out of the Chatel Arab Hotel, and because of the build-up of all the dust and whatever, we couldn't see where we were going, and the vehicle in front hit one of the concrete bollards and flipped. We'd hit the same bollard, but the driver somehow managed to keep it onto its wheels, um, and it was just a little spark on the floor that I'd seen. Um, and I'd looked through this uh CWS that I'd had on the on my LMG, and I could just see the underside of the vehicle, so I was then kicking the uh the ECM rack on the vehicle trying to get the vehicle to stop. Um it's Ben's Jetcron got out, and he's like, What? I said I think the vehicle's flipped on its side, and but we're going out for a strike for an up. Um we'd had a you know couple of minor casuals that we had to you get people kind of like evacuated for nothing where they had to go home, but it was just you more precautionary more than anything. But that still had uh had an impact where we well, one of the guys who was an LMG gunner, like he was out of action for a period, but I was now the only at this point the only LMG gunner left in the platoon for very different reasons, but I'd now got an RNR, so it was like these kind of like thoughts that were I'm here having having beers and a good time, but yeah, the platoons still and they don't have a machine gunner.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's crazy, innit? I think um I I never agree with R on a six-month tour. I don't think it's long enough to justify it, and it it's yeah, yeah, it's it's it's tricky.
SPEAKER_02I know it's subjective, but I I yeah, I I can completely get that and understand that. Um I've done other you and I think they'd kind of looked at it in the sense of you by the time we'd finished our deployment, we were pretty much like seven and a half months in by the time we'd finished. So I think there was maybe a bit of discussion within that in terms of we needed we you we needed the break. Yeah, um, but I think more so what probably could have happened more was more on a impetus on maybe what the hazards they what they called like the operational stand down. Yeah. So we'd had a few guys that got sent to Q8. That's right, yeah. Um and they had operational stand down there. Maybe that might have been more of a um a structure that's sending people all the way back to the UK and it's you dribs and drabs, two or three here, two or three there. It could have been right. What you're gonna have your three-day period, the multiple platoon, section, whatever it might be, what you're gonna go to there for three days. Yeah, that becomes like your decompression, your operational stand down and such to the point of then coming back. You're not so far removed that if something was to go wrong, yeah, you couldn't get extracted and put back in. Because if I'm now in the UK, something goes wrong, yeah, they're not gonna go back to the UK. I mean they could, yeah, but it's unlikely they would they go back to UK to go, right? You now need to come back there because the the the travel is by the time I've got back there, whatever's happened is yeah is happened.
SPEAKER_01That's right. I remember some of our lads did that. I mean, it was very scruffy in the regard that not it weren't for everyone, no, it wasn't not everyone had it.
SPEAKER_02I think in Al Patoon, I'd probably say five or six people got it. So across the company, yeah, maybe 10 to 12 got it.
SPEAKER_01Not everyone had it. And all that happens there is they get ragged for it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I remember that Q8. They went down and there was a pool and gatorade, as much as they could drink. Yeah, they're all buying PlayStation Portables. I seem to remember, but yeah, I think we did a few runs down there and took people there, which was even more annoying. And it's just a long road to Q8. I seem to remember, but yeah, that's crazy. Um okay, this um the last thing I want to talk about, and I think quite emotive, but um, and I know you had a part to play in it in some way. There was two fine young lads, uh, young poachers killed in action, Private Louacy and Private Morris. Private Luacy being a few Fujian guy, um, Private Morris, I'm not sure where he was from, you'll know better than me, but um, and they were killed by an ID, I'm right in thinking. Yeah, um, it's it's tricky on any tour where and the reason I bring this up is because one, what I want to celebrate and talk about these lads, you know. I think it's so important to keep mentioning these names because then they stay etched in in our regimental history, and also there's quite a lot of emotion and process that goes on when people are killed. And we'll, if you're alright doing it, we'll talk about that a bit. But so just run me through your sort of part that you played in in the events of that day, which I think was in May, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yes, it was in yeah, it was in the uh mid-May, yeah. Um, and yeah, we were we weren't specifically um doing anything across the company. We were just from memory, we were just on the ground, just a presence.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, were these lads your company? Yeah, they're company, yeah.
SPEAKER_02We were all C company. So those lads, uh Louie and Mo, they were eight platoon. I was nine platoon, and we were operating in different parts of the city. We were in more of a um, I suppose because of our needle terms of where we were the search guys, we were in more of a okay, scrubland area. Um, just you having a presence, but you you the uh vulnerable point checks and vulnerable area checks, uh, but noting that you know there was a lot of area of where you could disguise devices in the ground there, where weapon caches, um a lot known to have uh mortal base play teams out in that area, but because of the nature of the ground, you think of you a rubbish, a rubbish tip, if I have a better phrase, that was the kind of like area that we were kind of operating in. Um and was it in the city, outside? It was on the outside outskirts of the city, whereas the um the other platoons like 7 Patoon, I'm not entirely sure, I can't remember exactly what they were doing. They might have been doing the upper eagle stuff, so in the in the um in the air, they might have been, they might not have been. But eight platoon again were in their snatches as well, uh, and they were operating a bit further into the city, but not right bang in the middle, and yeah, so we were just on on patrol, just doing our normal kind of like actions, and then it just it came over the net that something had happened, but you'd being sort of all I had was you PRR, the uh section commander noted right, yeah, there's been you a contact IED. We need to mount up because we're gonna go provide some assistance because that's just that was like SOP. Um, and then we mounted up, moved to an area where we're by the side of the road, ready to ready to respond. Um, and then we could like, well, normally we would have responded by now, normally we'd have gone by now. Um and then say nothing was really said at this point. It was kind of um we just need to hold where we are, hold on the ground, more direction will come through, and that that then that that was what it came. So we then stayed, we kind of moved around, we tried to edge ourselves a bit closer to the city, um, and it was just right, just hold, don't go nowhere, don't go where and it was even for me, it was you you like say you talking, you they were saying month and a half in almost, and it was kind of like this still wasn't what we'd done previously. This would something felt different, yeah. Because, like I say, normally it would have been something's happened and we've responded because that was for the company, that was our role, but in this instance where we didn't, it to me it was like well, this feels different, and some something is different, and then I say time kind of like merges a little bit. Well, I say within you a couple of hours, it was like right drive back to the Shatter Arab hotel, yeah. Um and again it was kind of like oh yeah, this like something doesn't quite feel right, and anyway, we've got in, and I always then remember we're on um like the parade you got like as you drive as you drive in through like the main gate, we could have like followed the one-way system around, and normally we would go directly right almost like onto the DOS ball, but in this sense we followed it right up through, and then we parked almost at the back of the hotel. Um back in the day it would have been you were all you know like your I don't know, your service lorries and all that would have gone in dropping stuff off. So we've parked up at the back there, we've got all like the loading bays and stuff, and you know, we could see a few of the guys from the other platoons, but no one was really saying anything, and then we all got pulled together as a as a platoon, um and it was alright. We've there's been two casualties from within the battalion, as was how it was initially put to us. Um and that's all they that's all all that was all that was said, and it went off. Um the other the eight platoon then all got took away. Um which again was like for me was like what what's what's going on here? Maybe someone knows who it was, um, but yeah, but the whole platoon got took away, and then it at this point it was then just us and seven platoon got put together, and then that was when we were then told by the OC South Major what had happened to uh Adam, uh Mo and Louie um both uh dying from their injuries sustained, and that uh Lionel, who was the top cover, he'd uh lost his leg in this in the same instant, and the vehicle was hit by um uh an explosive form projectile. Um and the easiest way to for the audience to kind of visualize it is to think of a you know a device, you a bit of um explosive that gets fired, and as it fires, because it heats up to like molten temperatures, it it will hit like a metal sheet that forms the front of it, and then that just melts it together, and it effectively just performs like an iron fist. And with the way that the snatch vehicles were designed, they were designed as a Northern Ireland vehicle, they can take up to 762 762 sustained will probably start to penetrate it eventually. 50 cal will eat through it. Easy, yeah. Um, but as that projectile punches through, it hits the first side, punches straight through now. As it hits the second side of the vehicle and it penetrates out, it creates an air vacuum, basically anything inside it basically gets um sucked out, and it was that projectile that caused the uh unfortunately Anne and Louis to to lose their lives doing their job. Um, yeah, and Lionel losing his egg whilst he was stood on the top cover.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? Do you know if it was it victim operated?
SPEAKER_02So was it like a PIR I think it's yeah from memory, yeah, PIS, or like passive infrared um from memory. It might not have been, but I think from memory, I think that's what it was.
SPEAKER_01And I think so them device they picked up on that technology quick, so it's like sensors like I'm looking at now in the corner of the building. Anything that breaks that laser, it initiates it effectively. So I'm I'm I guess someone's got to be there to activate it, and you know, so there is involvement from a end user, so to speak, but yeah, sad mate, isn't it? And I think um, and what would what impact did it have on the company?
SPEAKER_02So, like it, yeah, it for the yeah, for the company, you I'd say if you're a good you 12, 24, 36, 40 hours afterwards, you the mood within the company, there was a lot of anger as as you'd imagine. You no one really know knew what to say, what to do. Um you there were points you you I remember you there was a point where you I was in the bed that I had in the hotel, you and you I you know I cried, and you there's a you a personal attachment I have to to Louie uh in the sense that day one in battalion in Northern Ireland, I shared a root a room with him. You me and Luke turned up, and initially we were in the room on our own because we had Steve and Louis who were really, really good friends um to each other and to me and Luke as time went on, but they were out off doing the island ops, and as they came back in, um Louis was drinking drinking some grog in his room in the little in his little quarter in our four-man room, yeah, and uh he was watching Blood Sport Van Damme movie on the telling, and we're all just like sat in his little enclave in his room watching it, and he just pauses the film at a at a particular point and he looks at me, asks me my name, and I said, Oh, Tom Power. He looks back at the film, presses play, pauses it again, and goes, From now on, you'll be called Tom Poe because in the film they were shouting Tungpo. Right, yeah, there's the the the bad guy in the movie, great story, mate. And uh, yeah, so he was like, Yeah, so from now on you'll be called Tom Poe. And I was like, Yeah, cool, we're gonna argue with you. And that that was that, and that nickname has stuck with me from that point on to now, even to the point where my nieces and my nephews call me Tompo. Yeah, it was great, mate. I've had people in battalion don't even know my name, yeah, because everyone calls me Tom Poe. So yeah, and that resonated from there. So that was that kind of like personal connection that I had with Louis. Um that's a nice legacy, mate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's very cool. It's it's um was up minimiser thing then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was, yeah. So yeah, we had to upminimise. Um just explain what that is. Yeah, so up minimise. So effectively, any communication that you have, so like your like your phones or computers basically get turned off for a protracted period of time, and that time can um differentiate op specific, mission specific, but more so it's there, so it's the you know, MOD's responsibility to speak to the next akin, the family of any service personnel, whether they've been you seriously injured, injured in general, or um you unfortunately if they've been you killed in action. Um so yeah, so that was indicated in that place. So you the the the families obviously could be um told of that instant there, obviously, where we've had three guys, one seriously wounded, two unfortunately uh killed in action. So, yeah, so that was put into place. Um, and the the differences between now and um then would be that you we used to have what we used to call like the paradigm of phone cards, we'd get like 30 minutes a week. Um, I can't even remember if we had computers then. I think we did. Um that was you like welfare suite, yeah. Welfare suite, and you'd have like all the blakes are on Facebook dating, so it's yeah, X amount of computers, but you had to block yourself in for your 30-minute window because that obviously activated off your card as well. Um, but again, but all of that happened is they would all be shut down, your doors locked, so again, no one could get into there. But it didn't matter if it was our unit or any unit, anytime that happened, minimised would be put to you in effect for everyone, and rightly so, because the last thing you want again. So, for people to understand is what you don't want is someone to put a comment on someone's Facebook, yeah, Instagram, a private message to someone that oh, I'm really sorry for your loss, and they're like, What are you talking about? Because they haven't been told you by the right person that's you someone's got injured, or I've never heard of any examples of that, but it must have happened for them to.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I've I I thought ought minimise was a great thing, but then you'd always, regardless of what theatre you were in, you'd always hear it, then you'd hear the unit, then you'd hear the jungle drums, and you always said a zap number, which is normally the first two letters of your surname, and then your last four of your army number, I think. You'd hear that, and then you'd try and work out, and you know, and before you knew it, you just yeah, it just it didn't lead to any good. But I thought minimise was a was a good thing, and and you're right, it's got said to protect the family, you know.
SPEAKER_02It is, and I suppose the one you know, and I don't know you too much about you communications in terms of you from agency to agency. Well, you I do wonder as well within that when you're looking at you know when you're getting you like your reports from you know like you like the Sky News and BBC, ITV and stuff like that, and they put that you know British Service personnel is yeah, die today in country like yeah, actually have has that come out before the families have been involved and whether there's peace within that because then straight away so it's happening, and then all of a sudden people are oh so it's happening. If you've got people at home but you're away, yeah, it's in that. So I I do sometimes wonder whether you the media itself has a has a part to play within the protection of that as well.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I do think for the most part the families are informed before anything goes out, um, or that goes on concurrently while the families are being informed because yeah, and then then you the you know part of my job here is to support that going on, you know, and there's a very clear line that I won't post anything on behalf of the regiment until the family knows clearly, yeah. Of course, you know, but um yeah, it's always sad, and I think um, and what I love is that the regiment or the poachers now specifically every year there's a regimental rugby batch isn't there to commemorate them, and I think it's something that we do get right as a regiment. Um, but yeah, very, very sad. And I think and I know some of the other people that are on the ground that day in the vehicle. I I I think I know the vehicle commander, uh Jock. Yeah, you know, um, who I think is a great guy. And again, if I'm gonna be in a position where I'm hurt or wounded, you know, to look up and see these people around me, it's gonna do me the world of good, you know. And I and I know the events that day were um very sad and very grim, but I can't imagine it affecting the way that the poachers did their business after all, you know. I just imagine they'd go out, probably just take a bit more ammo, you know, bigger sledgehammer, whatever it might be. Um but yeah, no, thanks for talking about that. Um I know it's sad, but unfortunately it's one of the sort of big realities of the job that you do, you know, I did. Um we don't know what's around the corner. So I think we should start to close now. It's been a great couple of hours, and I think um I'm interested to know how that tour specifically, Telecate, shaped you as a leader in later years, you know. Um, where did you I mean there was obviously a lot of people you had to look at for leadership on that tour. How did that shape you as you sort of grew and matured in your in your career?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I looked at across you the varying different leaders, you know, and you could pick up the goods, you could pick up definitely the bads, you in how he handles certain situations or just how they go around your daily business, whether it be operational or in barracks. Um, and there was a point on there towards the end, or you know, part way through the through the deployment where you know the platoon sergeant, such commanders, and even some of you, my peers, if you like, and more senior guys than me were um saying, Oh, right, you you need you need to do the N2 card when we get back. Um, and I was very hesitant, and that's more so where the peers kind of like cycle in with some of the like the more senior guys was like, No, no, you you the platoons you the way to do it. No, I did the card, I did like a you in theatre, we'd done our own kind of like pre-carter, you know, engine when it comes to like the Fizz and some of the other bits, I was topping a lot of things. Um, but again, there was just something in my mind where it was kind of like I'm looking at what the section commanders were doing, I was looking at what the Larts Corporal was doing, the section to RC's two sergeant was doing, um, you know, the company site media, I was looking at all these different things, I was looking at what you NGOs were doing in other companies because we had slightly different mission tasks and the like, but also knowing that we were due to go back to Iraq in two years' time, you but not knowing you whether you the role was gonna be the same or different. Um, and I was sat there thinking, like, I can't do what they're doing at the point of deployment, you know, seven to eight months in battalion, end of the deployment, 13 to 14 months in, and it was kind of like you. I you I was looking at it going, can I do can I put myself in into their position and potentially you know lead soldiers without having the experience to to to be the you what I could be. Um so I was a bit hesitant and I ended up not doing it, you know, and um I used another year as a private soldier um to kind of yeah learn learn more, I could say, whether it'd be through various different exercises, putting myself into roles as a section to I see as and when I could. Um so it wasn't you, it was never you I don't want to promote, it was just that I don't think I'm ready. Um because again, I you and I and I you and I look and I would speak to people whether they you that are still serving, you that were you the junior ranks when I was coming through, or you some of like the those that are like LEs now or you senior kind of like um legatory officers, you and you and they they'd always say you know, it's like you two to three years should be that that private soldier going on to be you a junior and serial alliance corporal, yeah. And there was me being said, right, you need to do this, you know, and I'd only just about done a year, yes, with operational experience, but again, it still was something that I didn't necessarily know I was ready for, and it was like you know, how can I lead people? Yeah, so and I was looking at how people were reacting in different situations, and like I say, it took me another year, it got to uh 2000 well, end of 200 um and seven. Uh we'd gone to Poland and an exercise, and I was told by the company site major, different company site major, he was like, You are doing the N2 card in January, whether you like it or not. He's like, You've got nothing left to prove, you're doing the card in January, and it ended up being that um we'd gone to Poland, I'd done a driving course, come back later on, and I was actually meant to work with the this the CQMS, like he's grew out there because it was like there's something like that. I don't want to see you on the exercise, just chill out, kind of thing. Um, but anyway, as it ended up being that um it was just that cold, we'd had a few guys who got a few cold injuries and whatever, and I'd gone down onto where my section was to see the guys, and um there's a lad down there, he'd had a bit of a cold injury, um, and the guy that was doing section twice was also like shuffling a little bit, um, and it ended up being up between me and him. We ended up getting the other guy, um Casivak, out to get him uh extracted, and then this armage was like, right, this is why you're going on to the carder. Unluckily for you, you're now going back into role because I need you into role, and you and it went on from there, like I say, then come the January of 2008. I was then you back in Germany, where the unit was, and yeah, I was on what was then like the last kind of like in-house carders as they were there before it then went on to kind of like um like the Queensdiv like rank rank carders, yeah. And was it good?
SPEAKER_01Did you learn anything?
SPEAKER_02I I learned, yeah, I learned so much. Um and again it was you, it was all you um two hanging guys on there, it was all run in-house. Um, and you know, like I say, it was all my peers, you know, all the guys that you whether I was in training with them, whether it was slightly some guys before, some guys slightly after, yeah. Um and they were you know we're all like a really good you know bunch you I'd say out of that uh card. I'd probably say a third of us are still serving. One of the guys from that carder is now Regimental Site Major for the battalion. We've got um guys that are in that card that are now RQs, we've got guys on that card that are now W 2s and Colourside. So you so you we've all learned, and from that point on, we've all gone on to have good um careers, and we've all risen through the ranks, which you shows that we must have learned something from that course to then put us on the pathway.
SPEAKER_01How um how long till you did juniors?
SPEAKER_02Uh so I then did juniors in uh 20. Well, I did it in 2010, uh skill at arms, had a bit of an issue on juniors with my uh instructor, uh, which then caused a bit of an issue back in the battalion. He effectively found me for attitude and effort, right? But my course report didn't read that way. And um the RSM uh Duran Lewis was my company sign major from the from the tele eight tour, so he knew me and he was like, it doesn't make sense, but your report doesn't make sense, and um General Woodice was the CEO at the time, and he'd seen my report, and it was actually to the point where I was that upset I was like contemplating leaving um and the CO was like, No, I will get you back down to Brecken, yeah. Um, and he's like, if I get my way, you will go down, you'll do final X, you'll pass, you'll come back. Goes, but between now and then you are and will be a sexual commander. He goes, Because I don't believe what's on your report, like what's on the report doesn't make sense, but that his failure faction effort again doesn't make sense because that's not who you are. Um there was a poacher platoon commander down there who was within the platoon, but he didn't support me as much as what I think the CEO thought he could have. Um, so they so he would um they'd had a bit of a conversation that I won't really go too much into. Um but it kind of like stemmed from you know, there was like you the interview process, if you like, like that was non-existent and there was no record of it, so it was kind of like you was what it was. Anyway, we ended up staying between them so they ended up um talking me into staying. Uh I went out to when we meant moved to Cyprus. The CEO basically pulled me to a side and said, right, there's a job for a full screw corporal out in Afghanistan working with the Americans, you're doing it. Choose your team out of your company, choose your section who you're gonna take. Because then when you come back, you're going straight onto tactics, and that that's what it is. So he he looked after me. Yeah in that sense. Yeah, that surprised me. So then that then went on to so yeah, so then it actually promotes corporal officially until 2012. So a bit of a bit of a gap. Yeah, that's annoying.
SPEAKER_01And what um when did you do seniors?
SPEAKER_02So then seniors was 2016, uh, promoted in 2017, and that was just a bit of a just within that, I had a bit of an injury, um, and it was just a bit of a bit of time to recover from that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's good now. Up in the ITC, yeah, yeah, brilliant, mate. Um, mate, I think we'll close there. Um, that's been really, really fruitful. I think I've learned bearing in mind, I know the regiment pretty well. I know a lot of people in in the 2nd Battalion, never heard any of them stories, so it's it's I really do appreciate it, and thanks for talking about uh the loss of Louis and Mo. Um, I know it's not easy, um, but I the more we say their names, the more that they exist, you know, and I'm a big believer in that. So, and I think there's some real lessons in here for people, both young potential leaders and also those that are coming through the ranks, those that are even looking to join the army, you know. So I really appreciate it, mate. Is there anything else you want to go over? No, that's all. Brilliant. Well, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Um I think this will do really well and have a safe trip, mate. And it's been great having you. Good to see you again. Thank you very much. Yeah, cheers, mate, cheers, time mate. Cheers, mate. Time mate, bye.