Ep 08 Op Telic 8 20 years on: Erik Rawdon

Erik Rawdon served a full career in the 2nd Battalion the Royal Anglian Regiment, leaving the Army as a WO1.

During Op Telic 8 in 2006, Erik was a young L/Cpl and he took part in some fierce fighting and he played his part in numerous strike operations.

It is great to hear about this tour through the eyes of a young JNCO.

There is also some sound advice for all those in positions of command.

Thanks Erik.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

My name is Steve Larman, and I'm today and talk to those served support by followers and leaders, serving and veterans. We discuss the many lessons they learned and also share advice and experience that we hope will help. Okay, so welcome back to part three of this Operation Telicate series that we're doing on the Strength and Within podcast. Um we've had two fantastic guests uh prior to this, and we've really looked at the tour through the eyes of a private soldier and an officer. And now I'm very privileged today to have someone who was a junior NTO on that tour, and that is Eric Rawdon, one of three Rawdon brothers from 2nd Battalion. Uh and on this tour, he was a junior NTO. Uh he's going to tell us his story uh and and parts and words of wisdom for us. So, Eric, it's great to see you, mate. Thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

No, no, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Um, okay, let's start from the top loosely. I just want to sort of get a rundown of your career because I know you've just transitioned into Civic Street and you're part of that mental journey now that we've all we've all taken, some of us have taken. Um, yeah, just run us through when you joined and everything you've done of note, sort of up to leaving, really. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, no, cool. No, thanks for having me. Um, so I joined the Army uh Army Foundation College Harrogate in 2002, did a year there, really great year, actually, and probably not until you reflect back in 10-15 years during your career, you realise what sort of great place it is, and um and it's good to see that it's still going strong. And then I when you go through ITC Catarick and then join the battalion in Chepstow, they were at the very back end of Chepstow, so it was quite a tough initiation because um everyone had been there for quite a long time and it was uh it was difficult to get sort of in embedded, knowing full well that we was moving out to Northern Ireland um to to Bally Kelly. Um moved out to Northern Ireland for a few years, and and that was a really sort of learn experience for me as a young soldier. Not that it was a really kinetic tour and was doing stuff, but ultimately you was operating every single day. You had to have your wits about you, you had to do the right thing all the time, and so it was actually a really good learning curve with that threat that was still always there, and you know, you only have to read the stories of uh an ID getting found in the dustbin in the first two or three weeks we're there on the married quarters of state. That that there was a threat there, even probably though at the time it probably felt limited. Um, that then sort of took us through. Um, I did my junior N Shows card writing in Northern Ireland, um, went out to Jordan as a young Lance Corporal, really good exercise, and probably talk about that in a bit. Then pushed on to Telicates in 2006, uh, moved out to I'll make sure I get my bearings right now. It's hard, mate. Yeah, moving, moving out to uh Germany. Yeah, that was right. So we moved out to Germany. I moved, I was out there late, so I went on to junior Breckham, did juniors, moved out to Germany sort of early 2008, um, then did another tour uh telek 12, um, came back from there and went straight down to ITC characters instructor 2009 to 11. Came back, did senior Breckham, overseas exercises Kenya's, uh, really, really good exercise, probably one of my favourites actually, as a platoon sergeant, really, really good. Um, and then that moved us into uh being a platoon sergeant in Cyprus and then preparing to go to Warmage Academy Sandhurst, spent two years at Sandhurst, came back, done the old faithful CQMS, um, another overseas exercise, I think, to Kenya. Um, CEO's tack that time, it's obviously coming from Sandhurst where you're in, you can do what you want for a couple of years, uh, to then doing as you're told for the CO. Um, and then into the roles of Company Sart Major, really um proud to be C Company Site Major. That was a company I started in. Um, it's good, the sort of company finishing, so it was really, really good. And then the Daunting Daunting RQMS OPSWO jobs, um, regimental site major, then just finished my time in the army, and I am where we are now. Um, sort of three months out and living the life in the civilian street.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

How uh how long was it before you were on your NCO Carter?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Um, I was pretty young. Um there was a there was a few young people as we were going through the battalion. That's one thing I'd always say. If if you were good enough, you're old enough, and I I don't think anyone ever told anyone you were too young to go on to do NCO's Carter. So I would have been I turned 18 in 2004. Is that yeah, it would have been 2004 to turn 18. Um, and then I would have done my NCO's card 2005, Jordan. Then yeah, and then Telekate would have been 2006, so yeah, it would have been 18.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

And how um how much of your career were you married?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Um I got married in 2010, so um a good sort of two-thirds of it. I was married. So family abroad, yeah. Family abroad, been Cyprus abroad a few times and all the way around the UK.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, nice. I think um I think the poachers must be one of the last units to serve in Germany as well. Light role infantry. We were warrior at the time.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

No, we were we were light roll in in cellar. Um, I think the fuseliers might have closed cellar down actually. Um but yeah, we were on the last last there, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Between you and the fuseliers, you drank it dry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you miss it?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Um, three months in. No, I don't, but then I'm not naive to think that's only been a short amount of time and in my new CV job, my feet haven't really touched the ground. So um it's yeah, I'll be naive to say absolutely not. Um, and there may be times in the in the not too distant future where I'll be thinking reminiscing back. But I mean, I do get to be in Cotton's Mall one day a week with a new job, so it's I'm not too disconnected from the from the resident.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

So I'll be interested to see how you're feeling about five years because it's a bit of a roller coaster, especially when you've done a full career. I thought, you know, these young lads and girls and boys that leave after two, three, four years, four years, but giving up sort of I mean, you it's over half your living life, yeah. You know, it's crazy, but um, yeah, that's interesting. Um, mate, that's great. So, what a great career. Um, so as we've mentioned, that the the idea of this is to talk about your experience in Operation Telecate being the 20th anniversary through the eyes of a young junior NCO. Um, so what company were you and where were you in in Iraq on Telecate?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Um, I was C Company in Seven Patoon.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

So sorry mate, is that North Amps uh C yeah North Amps?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, right, yeah, nice. Um I'm trying to get that right. Yeah, the um yeah, I was C Company. When I first jumped out, I was in 8 platoon, and then when I got promoted, um, I was quite fortunate actually because a lot of people used to move companies. Um, just so happened on that internal rotation, everyone just moved platoons, so um it was actually quite good for me. Um, and people always say, 'Oh, you need to move platoons like get away from your mates and things, uh move companies, sorry, to get away from your mates.' But for me personally, it was the right decision to do because um I was still quite junior anyway. So moving platoons was was enough for me. I think it was looking back, I'd never say that was never the wrong decision. Um, and we were initially based in Shiberlog Base as the brigade reserve, and then we moved into the A-pod to be closer to the city. Timeline, to be fair, absolute knowledge me. But I would say probably a month or two into the tour, we moved into the the A-pod to be closer to the city.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, it was when it was that was if I remember northwest of Shiber, maybe, but yeah, closer with all the MSR straight into trying to tack myself back because, like you said, it's a long time. Um just made me think there. So, how come there was an eight platoon in C Company? Because we used to have nine, ten, eleven in the Vikings.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, it was seven, eight, and nine. Yeah, that's mad. That's some regimental history there.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, I think we sort of had legacy. You remember in the days when you had like fire support platoons and machine guns and yeah, all of that. So, yeah, I don't know, there'll be someone out there that corrects me. Yeah, okay, interesting. Um, so you were a section twice or a multiple?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, we was we were in multiples for the tour, so um, sort of slightly breaking away from the this normal section uh lay down. So um we'd have a platoon commander, a section commander, and a lance corporal in one multiple, and then the other multiple you're commanded by the platoon sergeant with another section commander and another lance corporal as sort of the team commanders in that sort of lay down.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

And let's just touch on your PDT, so pre-deployment training for the tool. The um were you lucky enough to work with that team and then deploy that team?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, we were we were quite fortunate. You've always got the the churn that goes with from the very start of PDT. Um I suppose you could call our overseas exercise deploying from Northern Ireland into Jordan as the very start of our PDT, really, and by default, nearly the best part of a year before we deployed. Um there's always going to be that churn, but we were quite fortunate the platoons pretty much stayed the same as as far as I can remember. And it was really, I thought it was really, really important. I think actually the Northern Ireland two years really put us in good stead for that because the PDT was pretty conventional sections, but we still had that thread of working within multiples and working within snatches, which yes, and we'll probably get on to later, that not the most ideal vehicle, but that's what we had. So, you know, there's no need to we can't keep harping on about all the time, but it was our bread and butter. So getting a multiple of soldiers into three snatches was what we did for two years. So that transition there when we actually moved on to the mission-specific training, um, was it seemed natural for us to do just a bit hotter, yeah, a bit warmer.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So, was the um the Jordan exercise was that directed for you to do that before deployment, or was it something the poachers were going to do anyway, you know?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Um Joe, I I can't really remember um the the assumption you should probably never assume is that it was probably the start of the pre-deployment training and whether it was uh a validation exercise of some sort. And when you were Lance Court Jr. on the show, you're just counting water bottles and bullets, right? Um but one thing that stood out for me in Jordan, it was hard. There was no two ways about it, it was as austere as you can get, really. Um, I know the different companies did different sort of had different routines while they were out there, but ultimately there was a battalion in the middle of a desert, um, and we were there for six weeks, and that's what it was. Um a little bit of downtime here and there, and a little bit of event training and things, but that's predominantly what it was. And and again, from good recollection, that the companies had really good autonomy over what they wanted to do with the soldiers, and then as we come together as a battalion, it just seemed to really, really be slicking quite smooth. And that's what that's what it felt like from my perspective. You know, there might be some OCs that may uh tell you otherwise, but I remember it being hard, I remember being good, and I remember the the importance of doing the basics in in an austere environment will never leave, should never leave us, and um, and I I thought it was a really good stepping stone for us to really launch pad into our sort of mission-specific training as the training pipeline developed before we deployed.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

That's great. Yeah, I think there's um I don't I can't remember what we did before TELIC. Um, I remember doing a load of down at Lyd and Hive sort of defensive house shoots and stuff. I think it was quite reactive to what had gone on previously. So I think the the PWRR Danny Boyd, the defensive house thing, they simic house, and so that was part of the training. But I think back to sort of Herit 6 and we went to Kenya, and like you said, you can't put a price on having a good run out, you know, getting beasted working your blokes and just trying to get that sort of final thumbs up before you go out the door, there's nothing like it.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

No, no, 100% not.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Can you remember any sort of major lessons that you learned on that PDT that you took with you that came in handy?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, it definitely started in in Jordan. I say we'd been used to being in Northern Ireland where street maps, everything's signposted, everything's in English, um, and it's pretty straightforward. And worst case scenario, if you got lost, you can ask someone the way, and you either get a rude word at you or you'll get a friendly word at you. When we moved into Jordan, you know, naving became really, really important, and there was no square breaking wood blocks to bounce around, and it was it was so important. I think that sort of formative time for me as a young Lance Corporal was vitally important, and navigation would and I you could argue in a pub all day long, but I really believe that navigation is probably up there with one of the highest priorities of what I would expect of a junior NGO today and what I expect of myself. As um we all get navigation embarrassed, we all get take a wrong turn here and there. But when if you can get yourself out of it, then for me it's not really a problem. So, and it was that Jordan exercise that really hit that home for me because you couldn't there was no safety net, it was you had to find out where you was, and GPSs were scarce, the ran on batteries that no one ever had. Um, you know, there's no recharging points, no solar panels, that it wasn't a thing. So, you know, you really had to rely on your map and compass and have and have confidence in your bearings. And that's really uh my biggest takeaway from that was the navigation part of it.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, I love that mate. I can't agree with that more. I think um I'm sure it was we had Eddie Fawn who was our CO for Iraq, and um he was a special air service officer, and he um I remember he stood in front, I'm sure it was him, stood in front of the whole battalion, and he's he had a pair of boots, a rifle, and a map, and he said these are the three things. And I couldn't agree more, and I always I took that forward for the rest of my career, especially when I did like QDC and we had spider tailor, beast and that's right, yeah, fitness, navigation, right mate. Yeah, yeah, right, that's quality. Um, so then you deployed out to Iraq, Telecate. Um, let's talk about your first engagement with Al-Qaeda. How long was it?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Um, the first time it was it was the time of the um Lynx helicopter crash that um happened, and it was really early on the tour, and I've got very early May in my in my mind of when it happened, and the actual precursor to that, the the only really strong memory I have is we were in our uh wagons and we were preparing our wagons, not for anything specific, just we were getting used to them, we were seeing what kit we could fit in. Again, something that we'd learnt from Northern Ireland was um young soldiers are really good at making things fit in spaces that you think, and they tie plastic cuffs onto nets and things, and they put the or and that's what young soldiers do. So having that time with the vehicles was really important, and be it a familiar vehicle as the snatch that that it was natural for us. Um, and so I remember we were we were around the vehicle park, we were getting vehicles ready, and the sort of core came out was like we we're off. And again, from memory, no, didn't know at that point what we were doing. It's like just get your get your multiples together, getting your vehicles, get mounted up, doing N shows go into the to the ops room or a random tent, probably, um, and sort of get a quick brief what's going on. We're gonna we're gonna find out what's going on, and then literally, probably within a probably 10 minutes maybe, um, they said the helicopters have been crashed, been shot down in the middle of the city, we're off to go and help out. Um, and that that and again, that's what it felt like from my perspective. I'm sure there was probably a bit more of a measured approach from that, but then I would probably say flashed a bang, probably half hour, 40 minutes. We were we were at we're out on the ground from that initial call. And and I do have a memory, and hopefully someone might correct me or whose it was, but I'm sure there was a few abandoned snatches on the way, they'd been broken down and they were empty, so they've got another vehicle and they're not missing out on the on the uh on the on the action. And when we got there, the only way I could describe it was it was just like the Wild West. There was everyone and everything was doing stuff. Um, I still to this day don't know actually who was in control of it. It just seemed to be everyone had their own little part, but it was working in into the respect of that that's what we were doing, and everyone was doing some really good stuff. Um, and then going into the first time engagement with the enemy, we were part of the snackshoes. We've been given sort of uh our areas and basically given arcs to not too far from the crash site. We were pretty close from the crash site, and we were just overlooking a uh a bridge and a uh man-made um waterway basically, and there was another call sign. Um, I think it was A Company Two Lang, and they were having a right shootout over on the other bridge, and the next thing you just saw a whole wave of people coming across, tooled up, good to go, and then everyone. I don't think there was a fire control order given, to my to my knowledge. Um, it was that's what was going on, and that was sort of the first time where it was controlled chaos. Um, and my memory of my specific memory of that is getting down by the vehicle, I can't remember who it was. Someone had asked they'd got the magazine stuck, or they'd got a magazine stuck in their webbing belt or something like that, and it was just that laugh of that smile of going, hell we're here, aren't we? Do you know what I mean? So it was that sort of snapshot moment where we were days into the tour, we'd been out on a few familiarisation patrols, and then all hell had broken loose in the middle of the sea, and we were finding our feet pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

And it was the surgeons coming over the bridge.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, there was um again. I'd really like to be correct and have a chat with a beer with someone who could probably put a bit more deal on to that. But yeah, it was I think at first it was uh a lot of local population have basically come out and see what was going on, um, and that was always the difficult thing in Basra was everyone human humans are curious, not every human's bad. And when that happens, but as a soldier, you're on high alert, you know, everything's at hyper speed, then all of a sudden you've then got to differentiate that between is that person is holding the weapon just because it's his weapon, it's his shoot, he's just come out his house, or is he holding it because he's moving into a position where he wants to try and take advantage of a situation where you know, as a as an organisation in terms of the British Army at that point, we were probably at our most runnable because not everyone knowing what was going on. You know, we had just turned up, we were probably 40 minutes post-action, there was people who was there within minutes, um, and it's again getting that message across. So we were quite a runnable point at that uh a runnable target at that point. So yeah, it was uh trying to differentiate that was a difficult thing, and then ultimately when someone starts firing at you, then you know it's the good times happening.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, I like that. Um, humans are curious, not every human is bad, it's great. Did you have any overzealous blokes that were trying to you know win the war? Or I've got no doubt in my mind everyone did the right thing, but what is was it confusing? Was you behind that bun line in Bracken? Yeah. Target indication and fire control order.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

I I think the first part of it was that because it was very early in the tour, and there was the apprehension, and I think because of the scale and severity what had happened with the the it the the the Lynx helicopter, and obviously that the everyone knows the out the outcome of it, everyone was actually quite guarded and controlled, and it was only as it sort of slept into the uh crept into the night time where it started becoming a little bit more like Star Wars, because then the people who were only out there to have a fight sort of thing, um, and notwithstanding as well, and I'll touch on it slightly later, but obviously, we again my memory, we was C Company, we were the Brigade Reserve, so all the time they were trying to get us off the ground, and that was a really important thing. They were trying to get us off the ground because and they the reserves have been committed, yeah. Um, and you've got to make sure you're adding value. Um, but the problem is when you're in a uh a gun fight with somebody, then you needed so that was always a thing, it was always prepare your prepare your blokes to extract, but you still got to keep doing your job, and that was a constant message over the radio for a good few hours was um keep I say be prepared to extract, but you've got to be still doing what you're doing, yeah. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

And how long did that whole serial go on for you? Could did you cover the extraction of the bodies and stuff for?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah, so the again it's memory, um memory uh trying to serve you well. But we my vehicle and I think another vehicle, we got dragged into a little bit of a side street, and the when they started extracting the um the bodies and stuff, um and it's a completely surreal moment. I remember it's definitely C NGO, but it wasn't in the battalion. Basically, once you go, he got any spare work manpower, and it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that sort of thing. And I've got a young lad grabbing sent him uh on his merry way, never thought of it, and it's a really strong leadership moment for me that I've held with me for the last 20 years. Is when the young lad came back, he came back with a and it's quite a gory thing to describe, but he's came back with a clear issue CGMS bag with body parts in it, asking me what do I do with them. And I was like, I didn't know that's what I was sending you to do. And there's two lessons from it for me, really. Is the first one I should have as a Lance Corporal, the first thing I should have said to the senior NCO who's speaking to me was like, Why, what do you want him for? Like, because if I had known that, there'd have been two coers, I would have gone and done it, or someone more, probably a bit senior, a little bit older. The outcome may still have been the same, and it may not have been a pleasant experience, that person, but knowing the I would probably not have. picked the youngest person in in in in the uh multiple so that was a lesson that really stuck home with me for a long long time like asked why and we talk about curiosity and I throughout my time in my army career whether it's been at uh Lord Mintrican Sandhurst I see Catarick or just as a general uh platoon sergeant CQMS or whatever in the battalion I've always told my soldiers be curious because you if you lose that curiosity then you you'll never ask that question you'll never ask that why and I didn't do that and it's sort of knowing your soldiers knowing what's going on and ultimately protecting them and don't get me wrong I have seen it in my time in the army where you've you've questioned somebody and they've sort of took offence to it but I think if anyone's worth their salt they'll always accept the why they'll always accept that question. So yeah so that was a really tough part of that and then it it felt like probably five six seven or eight hours after that had sort of continued we then got extracted and I say that was the common theme for our entire thing from that was extractors. We then extracted out the situation was still ongoing um we then got back to camp uh that night was back in shiber and doing the good old June show thing I was last in the shower and all that sort of stuff but it is a valuable lesson is um as I was coming out the shower the company site major was coming into the shower and he was like who's that I was like it's caught ordinary he was like get the blokes out of bed I was like what and we'd just been out like for a quite a long time get the blokes out of bed we're going out again and I was like nah he was like get them out and then when you see the white somebody's eyes you know that the that they're being serious so I went back obviously rounded the troops we got in the vehicle and basically a water purification tanker had got stuck in out on out on the road coming back into Shyabra a few a few K away so we rounded everybody up again um got everyone out and then went and secured this until the daylight and then it could get then towed back in safely but it was just a really good thing that we'd been out but you never rest on your levels make sure your kit's good to go prep your kit um and I sort of say it a bit tongue in cheek about during NTOs getting showered last but I think it's vitally important that you know you need to make sure your soldiers are good to go because if it'd been the other way and I'm getting my head down and there's still soldiers kicking around I I don't think it's the right thing to do. So yeah that was just a really small dip there where we'd been out first sort of contact with the enemy we thought we'd get our head down for a few hours lo and behold you're not you're going back out and it was quite a benign task you know it was a water purification tanker obviously it was vital for the for the survivability of soldiers in in Iraq at the time but um it's still put another 24 hours onto your day mate that's a that's that's a quality piece of advice that is and do you know what I agree good soldiers eat like uh good leaders eat last you know and I've I still I say that now jokingly here at work you know if we have a function I'm always the last to eat it's ridiculous really um and that's the perks of being reserved I guess isn't it you sort of odd jobs and you know all the rest of it um I suppose it meant sort of and that's within like the first week or two isn't it yeah yeah it's again really memory but I'm pretty confident that you know it was well within the first week of the tour but first couple of weeks definitely and how were your soldiers on reflection after that incident you know did they did they sit and dwell did you I get this is before the days of trim I guess isn't it or trim was on the doorstep maybe I didn't come into it but yeah there was no trim um trim sorry is trauma risk incident management I think um something the army went big on from sort of Telic Herrick I think it's still around I'm I might be wrong but there was none of that really at the same time no there wasn't and you know you go back on for reflection um but I I do think one thing that naturally happened was firstly we were busy so no no one straight immediately after that incident no one had real time to dwell because it was everyone shattered either get my head down or we get redeploying but then the second time is when soldiers did get their head down you know we was all in sort of multiple or half yeah it was all in multiple tents I think um or at least maybe the officers slept differently I don't know but um everyone was together and there wasn't the same sort of facilities as we had uh on later tours where there was a few internet rooms but it was like a camel ride away so you never really wanted to go there you only had 20 minutes on your phone card to go and speak to people so you know at the at the end of each instant when you close down your kit everyone was in there and you was either talking about it and no one was ever left on their own because again especially when we was in Shire we were miles away from everywhere so if there was someone missing for example you would pick up on it quite quickly and I think it was just I wouldn't say people sat and purposely spoke about something but it just naturally happened and then the subjects would change and then you'd crack on and I think you know don't get me wrong it's what trim's born from now really but I still don't think you can put a price on soldiers speaking to soldiers and you know people sharing their experiences same as a hot debrief we do this on all our battle courses we do a hot debrief when someone's done a a patrol action for me it's the same as when you do that it's a hot it's a it's soldiers round a table with a deck of cards having chat and I think that's really something that you should never steer away from regards to what process is in in place now is that immediate conversation or straight after is really really vitally important.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah mate I could I couldn't agree more in fact two weeks ago I was at uh Sandhurst with Sam Perry and we were talking about leadership in combat and one of the slides I showed is a picture of the blokes under a camnet looking like tramps weapons immaculate all playing like Monopoly or whatever it was you know and I said you cannot the potency and the output of just getting blokes together talking about anything else but what's just gone on and then maybe you know dipping into it there's no no better way to spend your time you know out of out of contact and when you're in some form of routine just being around them because then you also you notice the presence the abnormal with people don't you that bloke that was always a gobsite you know and all of a sudden he's very you know subdued or quiet and he's not being a gobshite or something mate why aren't you gobbing off you know and then it could lead into you know going down a path of sort of you know investigation and helping them out where it might be but yeah that's that's sound advice that is um uh so yeah so I'm keen to get an idea of I mean that's a really aggressive and flat out start to the tour.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

What so for the rest of the tour what was the tempo like was it dip sort of dips and starts or the the the tempo really picked you up and I think the again from a junior NGO's perspective trying to we was really lucky as well did go back to the the the OC the OC was really good at um passing information on uh I I think definitely down to junior NGO level like we we were always invited toward us if we could attend obviously if we weren't doing like rehearsals or kits it it was never a closed door if you open the door you'd never have them conversations where you felt that the OC was talking to the SART major and the two commanders only it was you never I never had that feeling and it's something again I've taken with me when I was a company SART major you know if soldiers want to come and listen to the O groups company O groups and listen to us talk about stuff then by all means there's nothing off limits and you know if you're talking about something off limits then it's probably on a smaller group than what's going to be in the O group anyway. Who's your AC mate? Mark Nooney and Sart Major um Brian Lewis Louis so a really good combination um yeah really good combination and I think again it was that sort of openness that sort of givers that so picking up on a few vibes I think the the links getting shot out of the sky really ramped up the sort of the kinetic nature of the tour where and I'm pretty sure that we probably were 28 days straight after that pretty much we were out on the ground every night whether we were doing a strike operation or we was doing uh dominating the ground or whatever we were doing we're pretty much out on the ground um for a full month um so it really ramped up and all of this as well is you know you're operating at night time but you're also operating the day and it's in terms of any sort of routine it wasn't it was trying to buy that routine within your team was really important um I think we got to a point of enforced rest probably about at the end of that sort of 20 well maybe in the middle of that 28 days I think I do at some point I think we were pretty much we were put offline for like four or eight hours um just because the the soldier had been on the ground and it was it was it was it was a good time it was a good time to be a soldier um but then also it was the reality of we've still got to look after each other um but yeah no and it sort of peaked and peaked and peaked then towards the end of the tour probably sort of uh July maybe August September time it sort of just downed off but I think that was more to do with the preparation of what we're going on for the next sort of iterations of the Telic and I think upon reflection and looking what I know as a sort of a more an ex more senior soldier is I don't think they could have seen uh month after month after month of kinetic operation that sort of you've got to slow it down because it was almost unsustainable ready for then what was going to go on to Telic 9 and 10 etc so yeah so it really ramped up into the middle of the summer and then it's felt like it sort of tailed off and whether that was just a C company thing whether we just tailed off or whether the whole sort of MND South East has slowed it right down purposefully then you know I I don't know but yeah that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I mean you think 28 days so you put yourself now in the shoes of a civilian it's Monday first of the month so you're gonna see three weeks four weeks of work a couple of weekends where you're just working for the weekend meanwhile across the water in Iraq job after job after job it's crazy in it I I think about that sort of comparison a lot now you know when we think to I mean I always we spend a dit about Heritage at my company there's about six days where we weren't in contact throughout the whole tour and then you sort of married that up with what your family's doing at home.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah they can't remember what they did two weeks ago it's I I just find it so interesting mate it's um and I think what's a really pertinent thing as well and I know you always see the social media craze of the heat and all that what's going on um but I did do a little bit of research for but you know at the A pods the average temperature was 46 degrees in May in June it was 50 in July it was 50.5 in August it had a higher 51 and dropped off and that's just the ambient temperature never mind you know if you could pluck a number out there inside a vehicle it's going to be 10 or 15 degrees hotter and then we're all kitted up and I think that's another thing as well is that sort of mental um the physical thing people fight through physically the mental sort of strain that it or the unknown strain it has on you at the time it's not until you physically stop and you're like that was a that was we we were digging in there for a while. But again it's another leadership lesson I think is vitally important. It's knowing your soldiers checking on them you've got to try and find time to check on yourself as a commander you know and hopefully you try and find mates that come and do it. I was quite fortunate my driver was one of my mates who I was in training with Dave Tomo and he was always there throwing bottles of water at me. I never had to worry about the vehicle he when we pulled in he would just graft on it he would take it down to the LAD that to the mechanics and get anything fixed on it. So I I knew that my vehicle was good to go he took that one bit of pressure off me then I could then get around the soldiers and get around the rest of the multiple and do the good June show we call it low level but it is just the basic thing of prepping our kit prepping our weapons and the weapons is a good story actually I'll spin it while we're talking about clean weapons but it was a there was a World Cup game I'm sure it was England versus Columbia and we'd all we'd been out on the ground and this was a bit later on the tour I think yeah it would have been and uh we would got ourselves in the T V tent and we was at the front seats and we'd beat all the other units that were in there and uh it was about a minute before kickoff and the company site major come in and was like is there any junior engineers near and obviously me being me I put my hand up he was like is all your admin done weapons clean we was like yes sir and he was like they're not I've just been see the CQMS get your blokes out here get the weapons clean get all that sort of stuff and at the time I was super pissed off like super pissed off everyone was pissed off but actually definitely upon reflection now but even in a few in a few hours after tour you know he was absolutely 100% right because we all wanted to watch England play a World Cup game but actually the most important thing that our kit was there good to go and it was it was a definitely a lesson again it's taking with me that you know my weapon my kit myself I think it's absolutely vitally important and you know and I will be honest you know everyone was vitally annoyed but again reflecting on it was absolutely the right decision that he made um doing the right right thing on a difficult day and um you know and you know if your weapon's clean you're gonna have a good you're gonna have a good sort nice so I've spoken to both the other two guests uh from telecate about um the strike ops and I'm fascinated by strike ops because it's such a you referred to battle courses earlier everything we've ever done on a battle course is a deliberate action hasty action bit an ambush fighting patrol whatever it might be you know the strike sort of really came around on the global war of terror and we all sort of got into it I guess if you go back to sort of Northern Ireland days we were or the people before us were striking onto you know targeted buildings to arrest people you know um and I think for those joining now a lot of people see a lot of sort of sexy CQB close quarter battle manoeuvre and that was all formed from the strike up as far as I'm concerned tricky business you know going into the unknown be it a building compound complex and you are manoeuvring controlling people trying to identify that threat which you don't really know what it looks like until it shoots you or you shoot at it and I know that the poachers did a hell of a lot of strike ups on that talk are there any that sort of stand out to you and just I'm interested to get your opinion on the sort of dynamics of it and how it went and you know yeah no strikes I find strike a tricky word. Yeah no it is a really stricky word because I think people want to call themselves say a strike company because if you don't know anything about the army or you know anything about the military and then you're telling a story and go yeah I was strike company then must every t-shirt yeah yeah I mean and or you know no no one has sort of like brass picking on the t-shirt I mean so I think that's that's the first thing it is a tricky one because you're not always going out to go and flat pack everyone in the house and as we found out on many occasions would go around a house and yeah that there was a bad guy in the house he was also there with his family and about three generations of his family so you're not going in there and flat packing it so that was a really interesting uh thing to navigate as a young commander and I think for the I mean we had a brand new young officer Nick McGinley um obviously well known within the in the regiment he was brand new I think and he might correct me on this one but I'm sure he turned up maybe one or two maybe a week into when we first got there so he like slightly after we got there so he was brand new like brand brand new um and he's learning all this as well so it's not like we had this battle hardened group of people that had been in the army for loads and loads of years we had young people throughout and that's what I find a really interesting thing and when you're trying to find that balance between what is a strike operation and yes you go in there to see to see the bad guy but as you say you've got all the other factors the other human factors that are in there as well it's really important and also at this point there was not not a lot of doctrine around on how you're supposed to do this into uh an Iraqi compound where probably six months ago there might not have been a compound there someone's just hastily built it up with some concrete and some bricks um and you'd go in you'd get a compound and you might get a uh some air photo you might get some intelligence and I think as the tour went on the intelligence become better because we probably had more uh contacts on the ground that were getting that intelligence but very early on there was a few air thoughts there might have been a rough diagram of the room layout but you can but bet your bottom dollar that it the room layout didn't fit what you thought it did. Speculation yeah but it did reflect back to a leadership thing of rehearsals um and we did everything we could to try and rehearse in with what limited time we had or limited equipment um and I think I'm sure it's a young private soldier thought about moving ISO containers and we were down on the thing we had the the big grabber that moves ISOs and we just made a rough outline of these compounds with ISO containers and it worked um and you know you you you can't rehearse for everything but if you can rehearse for something I think that's it's it's it's perfect. So move again moving on to the strikes there wasn't a lot of doctrine and we were we're trying to adapt as we went along and we were quite fortunate that we were a dedicated reserve so we had the same people doing similar jobs throughout so within the company we had a dedicated search team obviously they didn't just do searching but that we had a dedicated team then the other two companies within their uh sorry the other two platoons also had sort of dedicated people so we made a decision quite early in our platoon um when we were doing the strikes and it definitely wasn't for hero points or anything like that it was um I would always go to the door first with one of the soldiers because what we've happened quite quickly is these buildings very rarely occupied by single occupants they had 10-15 people in there and you could get yourself into a fist fight quite early so if you didn't go in there and secure the door as a set as a as a Lance Corporal you've you your workforce got sucked up by people really really quickly and you had to think on your feet. So I always took control of the entry because it was never the same just for example we come into a big wooden double gate um we'd come off the Shuttle Labor waterway on on boats we'd ran probably two two kilometers literally hard targeting towards a towards a towards a house over the radio we got told there's a guy with a dusker on the roof and everyone's like this is great news um and then we get to the gate and we're getting a live broadsword feed down and I think they even I think they called it Spark it was like an IR from the from the helicopter I think it's called Sparkle sparkled the gate obviously it's about 10 foot you can't just climb over it so we started we went to kick the door but it's flexing next minute the whole wall just comes down because Steptoe and Sun's built the brick wall and um and then all of a sudden we found ourselves inside a compound and it's them sort of funny moments that you're like this is where we are so when we talk about no plan survives contact well no plan survives three young soldiers kicking down a gate the whole wall collapsing and we're we're belly down on the face like we've got to keep going haven't we we and there's a dusk on the roof so again it's a really important um point that you know keeping letting everyone know the jobs and keeping in con um what's the word keep keeping in control of what you're doing is important but then you've also you've also got to let it roll on the ground as well you've got to have confidence that the lads and well lasses now know what they're doing. One of my um big memories of a a strike op was it was on an op called dangle and we'd been given the target pack and we'd gone into this um we've gone into the strike operation and one thing for the strike team once you're inside the inner cord it's quite an unnerving feeling because you can't control anything outside what what once you're inside that series of compounds or streets you you can't control anything and we'd gone in we'd broke gone into the compound we'd cleared the compound no um uh kinetic action taking place we'd secured the person was after securing uh we settled down but outside all hell was breaking loose but you're sat in there and you you feel quite helpless doing anything and you just have faith that the the the lads outside are doing the job um there was obviously talk that it was starting to get a bit more kinetic on the outside um so there was talk about what we're gonna do from the inside can we move can we go and support but you know it's it's streets it's tiny narrow uh roads etc so we got told we're just sitting tight and then this was probably and probably an hour had passed now which anyone knows if you're in one location for more than an hour anywhere in the world um it's a long time um and I think the outer cordon are getting some serious heat the challengers um the warriors and then the inner cordon started getting some heat as well um so at that point and it's probably the first but it's the first time in our career that I'd witnessed the show of force with a fast jet and we didn't know that the the the jet was coming in we were sat inside a compound basically and this jet had obviously come in um at whatever hundreds of feet felt like your lungs had been ripped out your brain cells and then all of a sudden everything had stopped and it was like mount up and go and it was that sort of thing where you realised that sure the the the fire Power that we had available to us, it gave you that warm, fuzzy feeling that actually, when things are starting to hit the fan, even though it didn't fire any weapon systems or anything like that, it just fly in dead, dead low. It gave you that one feeling that we're okay here, and it was a again another tick box of experience as a young section commander that you don't get to experience unless you're there for real. Um, and I think another thing for that that leads on to sort of um mutual support is it was another strike operation. As we got into the tour, we started getting led by warriors because we were in snatches and we were obviously very uh runnable to IEDs, EFPs, etc. We started getting led by warriors into every strike that we're doing. Problem is warriors aren't very inconspicuous for starters. Secondly, they can't get down narrow streets, and we fell foul a few times of a warrior turning down a street and bringing down brick walls and things like that. So we sort of left them on the outside, and then we then come in in the snatches. Um, one of the times we were extracting off the uh from the op and was coming under a bit of heat, but again, we were sort of the strike team, so we weren't actually in contact at the time. And then the warrior calls arm was going to come past the edge of the uh alleyway for me, and I was the front vehicle, I was then come out, jump on the end, was gonna hotler get out of there. Next thing, as this warrior's come past, well just before it's about to come past, uh IED hits it, sends it into the ditch. We then obviously then dismount, we get out, and uh everyone's okay in there, but obviously they've been put in a tumble dryer at like and everyone's having a conversation. Next thing all hell's breaking loose on the inner cordon, and it was then a warrior and a challenge come flying down the road, unleashed a hesh round and some 30 mil, and then everything's just all nice and calm. Again, another tick box of a young junior commander that you know you you can't experience that on um unless you're there in real life, but it gives you that confidence, but you could see the confidence with the soldiers as well that when times were hard, there's not just you, you're not on your own, you're out there with other core signs, other lots of firepower that can do some really damage on your behalf. And it's a yeah, it's probably a bit of a strange thing to say, but it's a warm feeling that you've got that security blanket over you.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

That's a great analogy, it is a warm feeling, you're right. And I think um I'm picking up on your point there, too, that you said I like the one about that you think it was a private soldier's suggested moving ISOs, and for me, that sums our regiment up, you know, we'll take we'll listen to anyone that's got something to say, um, and that's great. And I love the analogy of do something rather than nothing, and you're right. You I think time and rehearsals, I'm gonna get you know, it's seldom wasted. Yeah, that is a cliche thing to say, but even if you just got the outskirts of a building putting mind tape on the floor, the amount of hours we spent with mind tape on the floor in Iraq, yeah, going into as far as we could up to the first door, whatever it might be, and then the rest of it. There was a phase where the army was teaching initiative-based tactics, and we I remember we were hammering the blokes with it when I was at the infantry battle school, you know, because yeah, you you can rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, working on the information you think you've got, but then what? You know, it doesn't stop because it's the dad information, you know, you've then got a roll with it, and then that that goes back to your basics, doesn't it? Of room clearance and and junior level command. We ask a lot of our people, don't we? You know, to go into the unknown. And and I read a fantastic book called, I think it's called Room to Room, and it was by an American staff sergeant whose name eludes me, but he won the Medal of Honour because in Fallujah he um it was caught on film as well. So he he was clearing, they were clearing buildings they I I feel they were overcommitted. So they cleared about two buildings at platoon level, and uh on the last building, he said, Right, I need three blokes, and everyone was just like, you know, when a dog's done something wrong and it looks the other way, they're all like, Yeah, no worries, yeah, yeah. They weren't engaging with him, weren't looking at him eye to eye. So he goes, Do you know what? Fuck it, I'll do on my own. Goes into the building, kills three insurgents, and drags their bodies out, and he got the medal of honour for it. But I remember the the detail that he goes into when he's telling his story about when you crush the doorway, go into a room, it's dark, your night vision doesn't work, there's no ambient light, you can smell things, you can hear things, and you just know when someone's in that room, didn't you? He explained it so well. So I'll put the details of the book in the in the link to this, but what you're saying there is sort of bringing that back to me. And the poachers did so much more of this than what the Vikings did on our telec tours, that you were you know really sort of paving the way it, but yeah, tricky business.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Um, and I think you've you've got the complexities as well as again as a young as a young soldier, uh as a young GNCO, but the you go into a house and you know you've got a few people in there who are fighting, you know. We that there's lots of us, and there's lots of people you can drag a lot of people out here. We've got in almost a fist fight with people, um, because obviously you've broken into the house, haven't you? And sometimes it was the wrong house. Um then you've got a goat, or you've got some kids that you've woken up, or you've got a uh an 80-year-old grandma who just can't move, she's sat there on the bed, so you're trying to freeze all movement, but you've got someone that you can't do anything with, and they just sat outside in the middle of the in the middle of the garden, if you like. And it's again, it's another thing that you know no battle course can teach you. You can read a few books, but until you experience it, you say, Well, what do you do with this person that's immobilized in the middle of the garden? There's one side of you when you're all hell-bent, oh we'll just drag her in and get her put in a room. Then the real world is you can't do that. Um, but on the outside, there's hash rounds and 30 mil going off, and it's a really surreal feeling to be part of. Um, but then it does come down to um when you do your things like your rehearsals, you that you can then think about the complex things, you don't have to think about the basics, and I think that's vital ground for anybody. If you can tie the basics in well, um, when it becomes complex, you've got the brain capacity and the and the bandwidth to deal with it. Um, you know, the random goat running through the running through the house as you're trying to like have a scrap with someone, it's it's a it's a surreal moment, and you can't you you can't ever put a price on it.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

I think um, yeah, and and everything, like you said, your point earlier, that old lady is now manpower because someone's got to watch her. Yeah, you know, you then you've got to get females in search her, and you know, it's it's everything leads to some other action. I remember we did one in uh in Badger, I can't remember whereabouts it was, um, and it wasn't the platoon commander's fault, a guy called Mark Taylor. I think he had some such out-of-date imagery that the route that we planned just wasn't any good, and we didn't have a feed at the time. I think we had a feed, and it got moved elsewhere from the brigade recce force. And my job was to get up onto the roof, and they were saying that the guy is definitely on the roof, he's asleep. There's two people, and I remember getting into the house, going onto the roof, put my foot on his chest, he looked at me and went, oi oi! He was pissed, mate. Him and his brother are up there drunk as monkeys, and it turned out to be the completely wrong house. And that was one night out. He's like, right, see what tomorrow brilliant, but yeah, fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

And another memory I've got of sort of leadership, uh of good leadership on the tour. Um, and he's got two mentions now, so you're probably gonna get a creating. But Nick McGinley was as I've mentioned, brand new platoon commander uh into the into the company, uh, straight from sort of pieced in a bit of MST, etc. And um I'll never forget the time when we the C company was the lead element into a strike operation really early in the tour, and he had been given the uh well, it was an honour really, but seven platoon were going to lead the in entire task force into the strike operation.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Oh, sorry mate, how big was the task force roughly?

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Um again, so it would have been we would have been a company plus with probably and again I'm happy to be absolutely correct on this, with a I think we had a subunit of artillery attached with us, and then we'd have had all the atts and debts of sort of the uh core signs, the challenger core signs, the warrior core signs that would like lead the route in uh part of the route in for us as we got closer to target. Um, but it was a good trek, and I can't remember for life how long it was, but it would have been a good trek, and those that have navigated around downtown Basra, one left turn that takes a battle group or a company group down the wrong corner can be quite a significant thing. So it was a lot of pressure on him. Um and you know, did his face tell a tell when he got told he was going to be leading the entire company group? He probably did, but it just shows you that you know, good quality training, good quality um MST, and having good quality officers that the regiment normally gets normally gets, um, shows you that everyone's capable and the the team gather around as well. And obviously, when you're in operations, no one wants failure because it's reflects on everybody anyway. Um, but it was good to see that actually the OC had the confidence to go, do you know what you're having a baptism of fire here? Um, but then once you've done it once, it gives you the confidence, then go on as we go along. So that was a really good sort of leadership lesson from um for for me to learn as well. Because I say that the the OC could have picked a more senior platoon commander to do that job. Um, or you know, as I've seen as I've progressed in my army career, they may have took that away from a platoon commander, you know, you you don't know. So that was a really interesting sort of leadership lesson, but then going on to that as well is always been open to challenge. And there was an there was an operation that went on for a few weeks, and it was about uh intercepting the Iraqi police. Uh that was there's a lot of corruption that was going on in there, and um essentially we were going out on the ground and basically taking police cars. There was lots of fake police cars, believe it or not, driving around Basra, and obviously the people inside them weren't police officers, they were stopping people, extortion, etc. And there's a duty rumour. I don't know if it's true that A Company Sartre Major kept a whiteboard within Basra Palace and who got the most police cars out of A Company and C Company, and he kept a tally chart. And I don't know if that's true or not, but we might find out later. And um, but at one time, and again it's about the challenge and in challenging leadership, we'd gone down the road and there was an illegal VCP at the top of the road. Uh, we'd ran the numbers that are on the side of the police car and got told um yeah, that's not a real police car. And literally it was about taking the fake police officers out. We didn't worry about the fake police officers, we took the car off the street, and it says how crude it was. There was no there was nothing else about it. Anyway, at this particular time, one of the vehicles was a normal saloon, whatever, the other one was a standard Toyota High Lux pickup with a dusker on the back. And as we sort of walked, uh patrolled up this street. Um, I was with the platoon commander at the time, and uh we was like, I think we might bite off more than chew here. And he's like, No, we're alright, we're alright. Anyway, we got a bit close, and it you can imagine they didn't want to lose the cars, etc. And it got a little bit heated. Um, and then in fairness, between me and the platoon commander, it was quite a heated discussion. Yeah, I was a young Lance Corporal, he was a he was a platoon commander, and it was respectful throughout. But we was uh the conversation was I think we should probably need to check check a check pace here. Yes, we've been told we're gonna take that car, but that one's got a dusk on the back, and they don't want us to take the car. So is it better to sort of fight another day? Um and I do believe actually I probably patrolled off back down to the bottom of the road, um, and then 10 or 15 minutes later, platoon commander come down with the rest of the another half of the multiple, and we drove off and we didn't take said car. But what it really was was always be prepared to challenge in a constructive way, and there's a fine line between well, there's a fine line of sort of being over the top with it and being disrespectful and challenging without any sort of evidence or any support to back up on. So I think that's a really key point that you know, and and I've always I well, I think I have, I've always been open as I've gone through my own career that accept to be challenged because I did it when I was 20 years old. So if another 20-year-old challenged me when I was a company start major, I can't be a hypocrite, I've got to, I've got to accept it. But I think if you're worth your salt, then you will accept that challenge. So, yeah, two little sort of dits there of sort of a leadership challenge from two different perspectives. But yeah, they were nuggets in time, but they've sat with me for 20 24 years nearly.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

So that's a good analogy. Yeah, it's a nugget in time, but it's quite potent because you remember it, you know. And it's and I I don't speak to many people of my generation now that haven't had a similar experience, you know. They've always they're quite reflective. It's funny you attract similar people, don't you? And it's all of my mates are very reflective. Yeah, I did this once, I shouldn't have done that, learned from it, you know. And I can remember twice gobbing off at my OC on on one of the Afghanistan tours, being pretty unprofessional, if I'm honest, because it was on a company net airing my concerns. One day there was a an incident with a phosphorus grenade. We had two or three guys fixed in a position, and I'd been in the position they were in, I knew they couldn't get out of it, so we could close within a kilometre. Brilliant, you know, textbook. But while we were doing QBOs, there was an instant with a phosphenade where it was thrown to mark the forward line of troops, and a couple of blokes got burnt, not severely, and it was called, we're gonna go back in and get these men treated. And I was like, hang on a minute, and I remember being so still to this day, it winds me up because they were fixed and we could have taken them off the battlefield. Um, but it was the right thing to do, clearly. But I I very unprofessionally aired my concern on the radio, and I learned from that, and I used to teach that, you know, don't do that, you know. Um yeah, I I love this whole, you know, and I think nowadays, from what I see, again, one complete has been, but it seems to me that the soldiers are a lot more inquisitive and they're you know they want to know the why, and I think that's really healthy. Yeah, you know, it's not that we don't British Army for the best part doesn't just make things up and make people do these things. There is always a reason behind it, apart from the PFA, never understood that.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Yeah, um but then again, just jumping on that while we're talking about the lessons learnt as well. Is on the tour, we was in the sh uh the Shuttle Hotel uh for a period of time, a bit of downtime, and there was a one of the lads, and I can't remember if he'd not come back from R and R or he was going R and R or whatever, he he was getting he was he was getting Kazivack out for it not like a battle injury or whatever it was, but he'd left his wallet um and our platoon had been told we're gonna take a free vehicle patrol out into the A-Pod from into the city and we're gonna go. And and everyone was, and I remember at the time, everyone was really um gone, like what are we doing this for? Is this risk for a wallet and all that sort of stuff? And you know, at the time I was probably part of that crowd, but then you sort of look at it from another perspective perspective, and we're trained soldiers, we're going to do our job. There was other things that we could do at the A-Pod at the same time, we could get some resupply and we could do stuff. It wasn't it wasn't just going to drop that wallet off. But then if you put the other foot, you've got this young kid who's going to be home and he hasn't got his wallet, he hasn't got his driving licence, he hasn't got his cash card. And you know, back in the day, well, now if you lose your cash card, it's all on your iPhone and all that sort of stuff. Whereas then it takes 10 working days to get your card. So it was actually a sort of it wasn't and it wasn't solely to go and drop that wallet off, but at the time you thought, what are we risking this for? But it's not about that, it's the bigger picture, and I think that's another leadership lesson as well, is it's not just all about you in that specific time, you've got to be able to see the the the bigger picture as well. So that's yeah, that's a part of that as well. Where you don't know the full the full out spectrum of it, you just see it at face value.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Yeah, well just uh you just reminded me of uh we had a guy called Tony Rawson who was unfortunately killed, shot and killed in 2007. One of my lads in my motor pool, brilliant lad from Essex, and we'd gone from Chatel Arab Hotel, that was next to the river, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was next to the what was that Euphrates? I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Yeah, or the Chatel Arab.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

Oh, yeah, sorry, yeah, the Chattel Arab. Yeah, of course it was, yeah. And we'd gone from there to the palace and then the palace back. And I can't remember what the tasking was, but I remember his vehicle being in front of mine, and then on the way back, I thought Tony looks really high, like there's something not right here because he's I could see like from his waist upwards. I couldn't get any radio comms with him, so we pulled over and I've opened the back of this truck, and as I've walked towards it, he looked really sheepish, and he's gone in there and robbed probably 20 crates of Gatorade of the Americans, stacked them all up and stood on it. I was like, and my moral compass was like, Yeah, I see you looking after the blokes, but you're also making yourself a bigger target. He's like, I don't worry, it's worth it. Yeah, I was like, Oh mate, so we I remember we spread the load, but yeah, I thought I haven't thought about that for years. That's quality. Um that's brilliant. Um, so let's just move on to so a soldier of you know a good fruitful career like yours, and that's done a lot over a full career, it'd be remiss of us not to give some advice to people. Um and you having served at sort of every rank, I'd like to initially sort of if you could go back now and give advice to Lance Courtwell Rawden before he goes over the start line on telecate. What would your advice be to young junior NCOs?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

I don't think we've got long enough, really. Pay your mess built. Yeah, pay your mess built. Um, I think that there's a part of it have confidence in why you got there. You know, we we spoke earlier that I was a relatively young to be a Lance Corporal, and you know, I see that as a positive, and definitely the unit promoted that and sort of have confidence. People talk about imposter syndrome and things like that, but for me, as uh I'd earned the right to be there, I'd gone on a course, I'd gone on a six-week course. Um, I'd been something that someone had seen something in me to even go on the six-week course in the first place. So, in terms of the imposter syndrome, that didn't sit with me because I knew I deserved to be there. If I could reflect back, and the big piece of advice I give to Lance Court Broaden would be try learn and know your soldiers in whatever way you can do that, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to know every single thing about them, but know something about them. Um try and understand what makes them tick. Um, I understand now that soldiers are very, very different, um, but ultimately they're the same in the fact is that a little bit of a let's have a look, it's a duck. A little bit of a nudge, a little bit of coaxing, a little bit of training, soldiers ultimately want to be told what to do within a boundary, they want to be given a left and right of arc, and I don't think that's changed in 20 years. Yes, I'm sure they are different, but get to know your soldiers in whichever way you can, and don't steer away from the the basics of being a soldier, and what got you there is what's going to get you forward. So, yeah, I would my biggest advice would be to get to know your soldiers, um, and the other bit would be there's points where you've got to understand to take that condor moment, and whether that's on the battlefield, whether that's in the barrack block, sometimes that taking that condor moment, that little bit of reflection, can pay dividends later on because it will stop you from making the decision that you regret that you'll need to give advice to a young Lance Court of Orden in 20 years' time.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

Yeah, nice, mate. I love that. And the um Joe, the condor moment thing came up the other day on LinkedIn, and I never really thought about it as a saying. We we've obviously had it thrown down our necks over the years, you know, stop, have a condor moment, get your cards out, you know, and all of this good stuff. But um, so the condor, when it's about to go into action or attack, it basically hovers up as I look at the situation, reads the ground, and then delivers. So it's it's a great saying. I boring dit there, by the way. I just I found it really interesting. I saw it the other day. Um yeah, and I I I personally think that not stepping away from the fact that you're a soldier as well is huge, you know. Um I remember on one talk, no names mentioned, but I um I was a platoon sergeant and I always took the word of my section to ICs, you know, ammunition state, water state, weapon balancing, whatever it might be. If they told me I was happy, and there's one day in particular, I said, come here, take the magazine off. Bloke had about 10 rounds in his back. I was like, ah, so I need to check the checkers, do I? Um yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. They were so worried about delivering their business as a section to IC that they weren't looking after themselves, my weapon, my equipment, myself, all of that good stuff. So that's sound advice, mate. Um I appreciate that. Um let's move up the ranks until when you're a senior NCI. When did you do senior beckon?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Oh, I did uh senior breck in 2000? Yeah, nice. Yeah, 11, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Um and again, if you were gonna give any advice to Sergeant Warden, young Sergeant Warden about to go into the mess, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Um again, without repeating myself, but I think it's really important. I think it's have belief in yourself. That's what's got you there. Like you've earned the right to be there, you've got to be super respectful of the institution, and I think the science mess is the greatest institution in the world, actually, because everyone says it on every podcast, etc. But you can't buy your way into it, you you've got to what you've got to put a lot of hard yards to get into there. Um, so I I I do think that again have confidence in what you got you there. I think as the biggest piece of advice would be probably listen before you talk, listen to what people have got to say, listen to what people's advice, listen to sort of where you want to go and find yourself, um, and don't necessarily take the first thing as gospel um and then challenge yourself to go and find out what you do and don't like about the mess in this example in this example. Then also you've then got to go and be inquisitive about other people, go and reach out to people. Um, and again, my time joining the mess will be very different to the young sergeants joining the mess now in terms of the dynamic of what the mess is, but ultimately people will open up to you if you if you ask them. I've never asked someone in the SART's mess and they've said they've told me to piss off. It's just having the ability to go up and speak to them, and and you'll soon learn as a senior NCO that there's lots of experience in there, and from fellow scientists all the way up to the regimental site major. manager um and yeah don't don't not use the experience in the science mess because you know it's a it's a place where you can go for advice where the gym NGOs aren't the private soldiers are the officers aren't and it's a really good sort of place to bounce ideas around and try and find that little bit of information that you maybe should know but you don't know someone in there will know it so definitely use it for what it is because it's an absolute fountain of knowledge in the science mess.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

It's the most exclusive club in the world isn't it absolutely did you find what what transition did you find the hardest becoming alliance corporal junior NCO or moving into science mess becoming a warrant officer?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

I think becoming a sergeant was the biggest transition because the responsibilities change um people with you have more interaction with battalion headquarters um even if it's just with booking on in the day as a on on the BOS then all of a sudden you then go in someone asks you a question because they do see you as but they see you as a CNN CO so you can have more experience you know you you probably have more of a direct relationship with the officers because you have a but you have a platoon commander so with that like you you you you uh when you're going around if you're walking around camp you know officers come over and speak to their officers all of a sudden you're speaking to five officers so it's always that sort of thing so I found that the biggest jump in terms of what impact you have on the wider battalion um and then your responsibility grows but then the biggest thing where I I think the biggest privilege was being a company start major where you have to foster relationship with an OC whether you get on with them or not for me is irrelevant. It's you know you want to get on with them you want to go around the house and have beers with them that's what you want to happen but ultimately you've got to foster relationship because your responsibility isn't your next step or their next step it's the 80 odd soldiers that are underneath you that you're preparing to go on to whatever action that you're preparing to go on to so I think the biggest step was a sergeant because you didn't realise the impact you had but the biggest responsibility and when you actually probably felt probably the most isolated and probably felt pressure I probably felt pressure for the first time as a company start major because you you had you had so much you know it was you and the OC and it was your company regardless of that relationship. So yeah that's where I would sort of sit with that and it is and my advice to a company start major would be find yourself a sounding board whether that's another company start major I know people are a bit wear it because they're scared of or like all competition or that or even if it's a full screw that you grew up with that's not promoted as fast as you whatever find yourself a sounding board to have that vent because um it can be quite a lonely place as a as a company start major if if if you're not careful. But yeah I did not I probably felt it probably surprised a bit silly on the podcast but I felt a little bit of pressure because I was C Company start major and I'd been a private soldier in C Company and I'd gone all I've been served at every single rank as a C Company soldier and then I was a company and I I felt the weight of the expectation passing on the the knowledge passing on the the the distinction of like what even what I'd seen in my it would have been 17 years of service it's you know when you move in company offices the company photo is going back on the wall straight all that sort of stuff where you know a young private soldier going what's the Sart Major doing on about now he's on about this photo being straight we want to go and do cool stuff but it's not it's more than that. It's um it's and I've probably felt that's probably why I felt a bit more responsibility because I'd served at every single rank and there was nothing that a soldier could do or say to me that I'd not seen in real life because I'd lived and breathed it for the 16 years as a C Company soldier that's cool mate so you're e posting Society you were always at in C North Antonio that's very cool mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

It's quite rare nowadays yeah really rare yeah yeah mate that's brilliant I think um when I one of the best bits of advice I ever got was from a guy called Pete Ram who was my sergeant major when when I was a young sergeant and he said when you move into the sergeant's mess it's not years left it's jobs left and there's no tree of saying because and it's not that everything you've done prior to that doesn't matter some people it takes longer to become a last corporal corporal whatever it might be. I think I was an eight year sergeant which I might be about right I don't know I'd I'd turn seniors off a couple of times to go and do other things and selection and whatnot and um but yeah when you get in that mess you know you're gonna do that job then that job then that job all going well as long as you don't get any reshows or um yeah and I I've always found that a really interesting way to look at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

But yeah no that's brilliant advice and then the final thing and you know if we can reflect back on your time at the academy as well now if you were going to give W1 Rawdon is now in meeting young officers turning up to the poachers what's the advice you're gonna give them I think be humble um absolutely don't and it definitely is repetitive but don't absolutely don't take away everything you've earned and learnt to get yourself to position where you are you've gone through a relatively rigorous process through AOSB gone through Sanders gone through PCD gone through a selection board you've gone through all these things where senior members of the regiment have deemed you worthy to be in in the regiment etc so never lose that never lose sight of that but understand that you are moving into a uh a part of a a small part of an organisation where soldiers care and one thing I will never take away from a modern day soldier now is they care for what they do and if they think that you don't care about what they do you'll have a rough ride so I think you have to be humble and don't believe the hype you know if you're if you're a good officer you will be a good officer um and care for the soldiers.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

Yeah nice I think that don't believe the hype is I transfer that over to don't look up you know if you're good at what you do you do the basics well the good things are gonna happen to you yeah you know them them people in your organisation bit your platoon troop whatever firm you work in they are they must be your priority for the first two years of your career I guess but mate that's quality sound advice I think we'll uh we'll start to close now mate and and this is the the the final of three uh telecape podcasts that we've done uh and I've I think it's been great I've thoroughly enjoyed all of them but this one in particular because it's I've I don't know I feel I can relate to it a bit more I can't explain what I mean by that really but um we've mentioned these two gentlemen in the other podcasts and I know you that you were quite close or you had a good relationship with Louis so Louis and Mo, the two soldiers that were were killed by an EFP in a snatch vehicle um awful event and it seems to me that you know everyone was sort of loosely in some way or another involved in the incident it might not be directly but you just might have to be comforting your soldiers that have heard about them that you know were good friends with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:11

That is still dealing with the incident to my mind I know you shared accommodation with Louis have you got any dits on him anything yeah it's quite funny it's uh first turned up to the battalion and um I say I mentioned at Rare Early start moved into Chepstow and being a brand new soldier into a into a camp that the regiment's been in or the battalion's been in there for for quite a long time it's it's a tough cookie to crumble and when you get told that you're going to um take someone single bed out the room and then you're gonna put a double bed in there it's quite a daunting prospect and that happened to me um anyway the company was well on excise and so I'd moved into this four four man room and uh put this bunk bed up and I was just flapping basically for 24 hours they came off exercise I didn't have a clue whose bed this was anyway as they opened the door that started coming in etc young lads uh well same age as me Phil he came in he was like mate dead sound now it's me who's sharing his room with so he was super super sound so everyone else came in and then uh I'd then gone out to the door to toilet and the next person I saw was Louis and um just just an imposing character but always got a smile on his face um and didn't say anything to me but I wouldn't expect him to I'm just the new guy on the block didn't expect him to say anything anyway that night everyone came off exercise and um I was still quite nervous if I'm totally honest because I didn't know what to expect and everyone's gone out on the piss um and then it was that later on that night the old drunk lads go around the block start knocking on the doors etc and uh there was a Louie was in the room still and uh anyway a few unsuspecting characters um tried to start kicking the door in coming in trying to like taking beds off an upside down loads of noise and I was then a bit I was like bloody hell what's gonna happen here next minute I see like two squeals like OK describers squealing pigs and I was like what the hell's going on so I got down from my bump bed went round to the top of the room to the to the front door where Louis's bed space was and he's got these two guys in a headlock and just sat there on his bed as if nothing was happening that he's got two guys he was squeezing life out of the room so it was a really fond memory that you know even to that day then he didn't know me he wasn't going to let two lads come in our room and disrupt our night or do what we're doing that's the sort of person he was and then when we'd actually gone on to the NTO's carter in um Northern Ireland um when you got put in the NGOs card we tried to put people in the same room so I got moved into his room um because he was on the N he started the NTO's card uh with me and then if they come off the NTO scar they still stay in the room um but again it was that sort of selfless commitment of he'd actually come off the NTO scarder for injury and he still stayed in the room but he's still helping you out squaring away your kit um still doing as much as he could because he wanted to bring the best out in you and he knew that if he could support me bearing in mind I was young myself um he would I would get best out of and he'd always do that and that's a really fond memory I had of Louis like it never nothing was never too much for him.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:06

Yeah it's nice mate it's nice to learn a bit about his character and 20 years on from their death I you know I've said it in every podcast but I think the importance of saying these people's names is is you know is critical um because in some ways it sort of keeps them alive you know and you know so hearing dips about people is brilliant. Thanks that mate I'm sure it's a bit upsetting to to think about um okay my final point and I'm gonna put you on the spot here we we spoke offline about how you felt that telecate had sort of moulded you as a soldier just elaborate on that for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

Yeah I'm I'm absolutely confident that um and I've sort of in my own own head used the analogy of like the the the commander seat of a snatch sort of is etched on my sort of army career like the lessons I learned sat in that sea um have definitely paved the way for everything that I've chosen to do over my 20 20 odd years plus of since since since deploying on optelicate and it's not that you won't make no mistakes on the way it's not that uh what you've learned is a bit on end or you're never going to stop learning but it's for me it's the bedrock of what happened and I don't necessarily mean just because it was a kinetic tour and it was high octane and stuff like that. It's almost that when soldiers are doing something now don't ever sort of step away from the fact is that what you're doing is moulding you for the future your lessons that you're constantly learning because it's definitely etched on me and the leadership that I learned and we've spoken about it today like I've still used lessons that I learned 20 years ago in the final few days of my army career and then when I'm on a civilian job interview I'm reflecting back 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

And I think that's really important that you know every the old school saying every day is a school day but there's really points in time and don't ever think that if you're doing something that may seem mundane it's definitely a learning experience and absolutely take from it all you can when you're doing it because your army career is a short career and before you know it it's over and you'll be sat here reflecting on it like I am now yeah mate that's awesome I've I've written down four bullet points on quoting you here um the reflect on the private soldier suggesting to move everyone's got you know a suggestion I think our regiment is really good at listening to everyone and I've said it before but even if you think already you've made a decision there'll be someone out there who has a great idea that you haven't thought about and we're you know we're humble enough to sort of say mate that's that's really good do something rather than do nothing love that um always be open to challenge I think that's critical um and have confidence in why you got it you know so if you're listening to this bull in your boots at the academy you're gonna be out of the academy soon and you'll be on PCD and then you'll be in the regiment or wherever regiment or organisation you go to um but you've earned the right to do that and you're probably gonna have those feelings of being nervous like you've alluded to today Eric and everyone goes through it it's perfectly normal but you've earned everything you earn the right to to get to every stage of your career. Mate it's been really good thank you for coming on mate and uh I think we've closed this sort of uh episode this group of podcasts now really nicely um everyone's been fantastic really enjoyed this good luck in Sibby Street mate it is all right cheers thank you we are a bit of an odd breeder but um we're all on that journey I'm still five years out trying to suss them out but um you know feed them keep them watered all the rest of it they'll be fine uh but yeah thanks for everything mate and thanks for your service and your career uh and all the best for the future mate no cheers thank you very much appreciate it cheers all right time mate