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Transform Podcast
The Transparity Transform Podcast brings together thought leaders from across the UK's technology sector to discuss the industry and nation's hottest topics. Brought to you by Transparity, the UK's most accredited pureplay Microsoft Partner.
Transform Podcast
Design to Thrive: How the RNIB Is Transforming Workplace Accessibility
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What does it actually take to build a workplace where everyone can thrive, regardless of ability?
In this episode, we sit down with Robin Spinks, Head of Inclusive Design at RNIB, who brings 25 years of experience helping organisations close the accessibility gap. From the rise of Microsoft Copilot's voice features to smart glasses replacing smartphones, Robin unpacks how AI is reshaping what's possible for blind and partially sighted people - and everyone else.
We dig into the real barriers people still face, why culture matters as much as technology, and what leaders can do right now to build more inclusive teams.
Whether you're a CIO, HR lead, or just someone who believes good design should work for everybody, this one's worth your time!
The Transparity Transform Podcast brings together thought leaders from across the UK's technology sector to discuss the industry and nation's hottest topics.
Brought to you by Transparity, the UK's most accredited pureplay Microsoft partner. Find out more about who we are and what we do, at www.transparity.com
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Hi, and welcome to today's podcast.
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Today we're discussing technology's role in supporting
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accessibility and inclusivity in the workplace and beyond.
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For a long time, accessibility in the workplace has been
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treated as an afterthought,
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sometimes a tick in the box at the end of a project,
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but that mindset is shifting and it's shifting fast.
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I'm really thrilled today to be joined by Robin Spinks, head
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of Inclusive Design at RNIB.
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Would you like to introduce yourself
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and talk a little bit more about your background? Robin?
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Hi. Thank you very much for having me.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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So, I'm Robin Spinks, head of Inclusive Design at RNIB.
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And I've spent about 25 years working with people
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with disabilities,
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but also working with organizations to tackle the challenges
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that disability of any kind might pose
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for an organization and an individual.
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So it's a real pleasure to work with a great team of people
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to work across multiple industries across many countries,
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and really to enable people to come together
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around the challenge of how do we create greater inclusion,
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whether it's across products, services, people, or culture.
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It's a constant challenge,
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and it's something that we feel really passionate about.
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Fantastic. So I suppose
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before we dig into what's working really well
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and can we talk about kind of like the day-to-day reality,
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kind of what, where there's gaps in technology, what people
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with visual impairment
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and other disabilities are actually facing?
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Yeah, I mean, it's a really exciting time
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to be having this conversation.
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So, uh, you know, there's never been a better time
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to be looking at this and asking this question.
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However, when you strip back the technology,
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I think the reality is that a lot of blind
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and partially sighted people
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and people with other disabilities continue
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to face really big challenges when it comes
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to accessing information.
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And if you think about just
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how quickly technology's moved in the last three
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or four years, you can imagine if you're someone who's not
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particularly tech confident, that is challenging.
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That said, you know, the tools that are out there now
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and the the capability
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of technology makes it a really exciting time to,
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to have this conversation.
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Fantastic. And I suppose thinking about technology, this,
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this AI is having a massive impact at the moment.
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Um, things like co-pilot, I know
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that you've, you're rolling that out.
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I think in Ignite this last week, um, it was announced
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that co-pilot has now got voice accessibility.
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How, what sort of impact do you think things like
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that are gonna have kind of with your audience?
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I mean, I think we continue to see developments
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that really make AI more and more meaningful and more
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and more, you know, confidence inspiring
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for people from, from day to day.
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It's about making that first step and getting people started
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and, and getting, getting them the confidence to kind
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of go forward and recognize what is possible to do.
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So recognize what you can do with ai, how
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that can improve your workflow, how it can save you time
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and create more accessibility.
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So I think it's,
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I think in the first instance it's
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a behavioral thing almost.
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Definitely. It's bringing people on board
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and getting that sense of buy-in and understanding.
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Once you begin to see that, you know,
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typically you're, you're on a roll.
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Yeah. And you're looking for new uses
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for AI all the time, as am I. Yeah.
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And I suppose it also helps you
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to unlock new talent, doesn't it?
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I think it's removes those barriers to kind
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of get the right people into roles, um, allow people to kind
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of flourish in, in what they want to be able to do
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and kind of the impact that they have.
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Absolutely. And I think it's about kind of using AI
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and using the tech to enable individuals
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to, to give their best.
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Yes. You know, so how can you tap into the best capabilities
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and attributes that someone's got for a particular role?
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How can you use AI to, to make that greater,
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give the person more confidence,
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but also enable them to feel like they're achieving more,
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they're moving further, they're not just getting a job,
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they're maybe moving through the ranks
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and actually, you know, improving their career
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and using AI to do that in ways
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that they maybe hadn't thought about before.
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Fantastic. And I suppose it's not just about technology
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as an is it, it's, we've got to look at kind of the people
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around it kind of process.
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So what sorts of things should leaders be thinking about,
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obviously outside of the tech stack to kind of make sure
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that accessibility is a part of everything that,
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that they're focusing on within an organization?
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I think it all comes down to culture,
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and it's about setting the tone for a really inclusive team.
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A team that listens, a team that talks about accessibility
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and inclusion regularly,
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and actually just realizes that,
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that people can be supported,
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people can be given a adaptations,
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any adjustments they need.
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Yep. Um, and I think if you're having that dialogue
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with your teams and you're promoting a culture
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of inclusion from the top of the organization, I think it,
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it enables people to be more open,
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but also enables them to share what they need
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and then ultimately to get the support
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that they require rather than people being quiet about it.
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Know for years, we know of many people who tried
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to maybe hide their disability in the workplace.
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You know, one of the advantages
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of having all those tools available is, look,
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maybe this can help me.
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Maybe if the individual doesn't know
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how the tech can help them working with other people,
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you can, you can kind of collaboratively
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discover what's available and what's gonna enable you to,
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to feel more included.
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Fantastic. And I suppose looking ahead, kind
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of what's on the horizon for you at the moment?
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What sorts of things are you, what are the things
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that are exciting you at the moment?
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I mean, we are really busy, uh, w with all sorts
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of projects across the teams.
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So everything from smart TVs to showers to bank notes,
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to ATMs to chip and pin machines.
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We've got a really diverse workflow.
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I think in terms of big trends that are coming along
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that we're super excited about.
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Smart glasses. Um,
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probably on a daily basis now we're having a conversation
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with someone about smart glasses.
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And we're, we're thinking about that, you know,
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that big shift that we're probably about to witness, where,
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you know, if you fast forward 10 years, it's possible
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that the smart glasses might end up being the device
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of choice for most people rather than the smartphone,
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depending on who you believe in the industry.
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But, you know, the data's there
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and the evidence is there to suggest that
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that transition's really beginning to accelerate.
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So when you do that, one of the things
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that's super interesting from a blind
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and low vision point of view is you instantly get rid
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of the camera placement issue.
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'cause any app or service that runs on a camera, you know,
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if you can't see the camera
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or where it's pointing, that's a big barrier.
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So actually having the focus fixed in the corner
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of your glasses, um, having a camera based there,
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it opens up a whole new world of possibilities and,
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and arguably improves security as well.
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There are so many areas of life where, uh,
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technology is opening up opportunities,
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but also enabling people
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to really have a more inclusive life going forward.
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So, you know, at the same time, there are huge challenges.
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So one for us is chip and pin.
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So the disappearance of chip
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and pin in its traditional form, when you go to pay
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for your restaurant meal, someone will come to you with a,
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a little terminal, and traditionally it would've had
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rubbery plastic keys.
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Now those devices are being phased out
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and replaced with a flat surface.
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So imagine being someone who's
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registered severely visually impaired like me, um,
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and being presented with a flat surface.
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There's nothing tactile to feel,
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there's no point of orientation.
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But more than that on the screen, there is a,
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an ever more complex kind of array of graphics and wordage.
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Um, and all you want to do is pay for dinner.
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You don't want someone to be calling out the
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information that's on the screen.
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That's a huge challenge.
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Um, we're working with UK Finance
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and the industry to work towards a solution to that.
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But you know, that'd be one of the examples
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of a really big challenge that's affecting a whole industry
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that's not just affecting blind
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and partially sighted people,
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but people with other conditions that struggle
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with information, um, are are struggling with that too.
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So that's a, that's a bigger kind of societal issue
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that we're, we're, we're working
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to try and challenge at the moment.
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You know, against that backdrop, there's a huge amount of
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interesting things coming along.
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So, recently got the chance
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to try out an autonomous vehicle.
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Oh, fantastic. Uh, yeah.
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And actually for the very first time
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to be on a public road on my own, you know, in a vehicle
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with a playlist cranked up
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and amazing, you know, other cars around me.
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And for somebody who has never had a driver's license,
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that's an amazingly liberating prospect.
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And, you know, it'll arrive in London,
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um, you know, next year.
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So you will start to see some really big shifts as that kind
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of technology becomes available.
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What's really critical though, is
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that autonomous vehicle systems are designed inclusively
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and take account of the needs of people
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with various disabilities.
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So be working with that whole industry really to try
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and make sure that we get a rollout that's smooth
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and inclusive for people.
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'cause the potential is huge given the right deployment
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and the right inclusion considerations.
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That's so interesting. Mm-hmm.
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And, and when you were in the
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autonomous car, did you feel safe?
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Was it a, what sort of experience was
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It? Yeah, really safe.
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I mean, I was incredibly lucky
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to be trying it at the same time as the leader
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of the Road Safety Foundation in the uk, Suzie Sharman.
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So that was reassuring to have the, the top, uh,
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road safety person in the car with me as well.
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But what I quickly became aware of was, uh, you know,
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you can feel the car checking and hesitating
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and being aware much in the same way
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that if you're in a driven, human driven car,
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you can feel sometimes someone pressing the brake pedal
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or you can feel them accelerate it.
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It was incredibly smooth.
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Um, and I think it,
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I think it builds confidence just spending maybe 20 minutes
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in a city center and realizing how the car manages
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to navigate, you know, an oil spill, you know, a
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prang of cars on the road, or,
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or a delay in the information that it gives to you.
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Once you can see that it can cope well around
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that your own confidence builds.
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So I don't think it'll be terribly long
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before people will be, you know, writing papers
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and doing emails without having to look at the road.
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And that's, that's the sort
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of first behavioral thing you recognize.
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You don't need to engage with the road
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once you've put your trust in the system.
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So we'll see a lot of, um, examples
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of that I think, coming around.
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And that's really exciting.
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If you're visually impaired, it just opens up
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a huge opportunity for spontaneous travel.
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Yeah. You know, people who've got a car just decide
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to go out of their house, get in the car
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and drive to the beach and put their favorite
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tunes on at full volume
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and like suddenly the world's a lovely place.
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That's not really an option at the moment
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if you're a non-driver, if you're visually impaired.
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So, um, a lot of opportunities there, um,
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that, that are coming along.
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I think what we do continue to see, though, are systems
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that are designed by people
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who don't have experience of disability.
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So a huge challenge going forward is
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to get more disabled people working in tech,
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but also working in leadership roles so that we can begin
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to see if you like the inclusive mindset filtering through
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into the design of apps and websites and services.
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Um, you know, so that, so
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that people have got a better experience when they're,
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they're actually using those, those services
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and not needing to go back and retrofit.
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You know, being able to take something
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and use it, whatever your capabilities are, and,
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and feel included and feel like it's designed for, for you
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as an individual and that it's flexible.
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You know, think about how many apps or services you use.
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Can you change the background color?
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Can you change the font?
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Can you change the amount of space that's used?
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You know, how much customization is there.
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And I think, you know, what we're,
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what we're really striving for is kind
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of ultimate flexibility to take account of the user need
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as it changes, you know,
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'cause 250 people will learn today
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that there's nothing further can be done
295
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for their site just in the uk.
296
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Wow. They were told nothing further that can be done.
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Really. Sorry, you're losing your sight.
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Can you imagine the trauma?
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Can you imagine the, the heartache
300
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and the, the concern on a daily basis?
301
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That's what our eye clinic liaison officers are really
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working to connect with people at that point of diagnosis
303
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and give people optimism, give them the positivity
304
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to see a way forward and, and show them what can be done.
305
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So how can you use technology?
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How can you use services to give you a more supported,
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more connected, more inclusive life?
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Um, and, and,
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and a lot of that is just giving people the right mindset,
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but enabling them to learn and discover
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and to build confidence.
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But critical as a say in there is this big shift
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that we need to make with designers to get design coming
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through that is inclusive at its core
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and flexible and adaptable.
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I think it's interesting you say it's,
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it's inclusivity, isn't it?
318
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Mm-hmm. It's not just, um, blind and partially blind people.
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It's kind of looking at kind
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of all disabilities Yeah. And bringing that through
321
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A hundred percent. And,
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And I think it's, that's really important, isn't it,
323
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to kind of see how many different people that you can Yeah.
324
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That you can drive impact for. Yeah,
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We do. When you have
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Technology, do We do consultancy for all sorts
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of companies all around the world
328
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and everywhere you go in the world,
329
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the legislation is obviously pan disability,
330
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whether it's the Quality Act, you know,
331
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European Accessibility Act or the US legislation.
332
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So at, at the core of what we do is inclusive design,
333
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but we bring a specialism around vision loss.
334
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And also what we're cognizant of is that when we talk to,
335
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you know, consumer electronics manufacturers, for example,
336
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that's the challenge that a lot
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of people find most difficult to accommodate.
338
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You know, the, the site loss one.
339
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So how do we, how do we make a UI work for someone
340
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who is a speech, a screen reader user?
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How do we make it work for someone who uses magnification
342
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so they can be the most challenging parts
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of the inclusive design puzzle?
344
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And we bring that specialism to, to our work.
345
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And really what we wanna do is pass that on to people,
346
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but also bigger than that, we wanna create organizations
347
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where there's a mindset around inclusion at
348
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the core of the organization.
349
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So when you're designing something new,
350
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you are automatically thinking, how would that work
351
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for a colleague who has hearing impairment?
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How would that work for someone who's partially cited,
353
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you know, what about neurodiversity?
354
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What, what do we need to do to make the solution as flexible
355
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and adaptable as possible?
356
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And, and bearing in mind that people's needs change
357
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as they move through the workplace
358
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and as they move through life.
359
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So, you know, customization
360
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and flexibility I think are, are key along with that
361
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flexible mindset that actually recognizes that your
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brilliant team member could come in next week
363
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and share with you that they've got a health concern
364
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that you'd absolutely no idea about.
365
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'cause why would you? And they want
366
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to know what that might mean.
367
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What will that mean going forward for their job?
368
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How do you deal with the uncertainty
369
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around health concerns and disabilities?
370
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And how can you do that in a way that is positive
371
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and supportive and,
372
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and just enables people to continue to thrive?
373
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Because I think at the end of the day,
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that's what it's all about.
375
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That's what, you know, if we as an organization,
376
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if we can enable everybody to thrive, then we're also
377
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factoring in their access needs
378
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because we need to do
379
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that if we're gonna enable them to thrive.
380
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Fantastic. And I think whilst there's lots
381
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of technology out there, how do you think people are
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adapting with training and kind of upskilling?
383
00:16:29.625 --> 00:16:31.045
Do you think there's still a bit
384
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of a gap from technology partners
385
00:16:33.265 --> 00:16:35.845
or providers in kind of that adoption piece?
386
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'cause obviously there's so much out there, isn't there now?
387
00:16:39.665 --> 00:16:41.405
I'm a massive fan of training.
388
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I really don't think that any
389
00:16:43.165 --> 00:16:45.125
of us can have enough training to be honest.
390
00:16:45.225 --> 00:16:48.325
And even if I go to a course, a training course on something
391
00:16:48.325 --> 00:16:52.125
that I think I'm quite proficient in, I'm going in
392
00:16:52.125 --> 00:16:54.485
with an attitude that says I can always learn more.
393
00:16:54.585 --> 00:16:57.805
And then I always do, you know, um, I do a lot
394
00:16:57.805 --> 00:16:59.525
of media pieces for the organization,
395
00:16:59.625 --> 00:17:01.285
but I do media training as well,
396
00:17:01.345 --> 00:17:03.325
and I learn new tips and new ideas.
397
00:17:04.025 --> 00:17:07.365
So I think for tech, there's a huge opportunity to do that.
398
00:17:07.925 --> 00:17:09.725
I mean, one of the, it's bizarre.
399
00:17:09.825 --> 00:17:12.005
One of the things I love doing is sort of like,
400
00:17:12.305 --> 00:17:14.325
if I get a moment to watch a YouTube video,
401
00:17:14.445 --> 00:17:16.685
I love looking at like 20 tips
402
00:17:17.025 --> 00:17:20.725
or 20 hidden tricks on Android or whatever it might be.
403
00:17:20.725 --> 00:17:23.405
Yeah. Every time I look at something like that,
404
00:17:23.565 --> 00:17:25.685
I learn something and I'm thinking, hang on a minute.
405
00:17:26.085 --> 00:17:27.885
I didn't realize if you long pressed that,
406
00:17:27.905 --> 00:17:31.165
it also turned into, you know, so it's just, it's kind
407
00:17:31.165 --> 00:17:33.125
of peeling away layers of the onion.
408
00:17:33.305 --> 00:17:36.165
And I think that's part of the mindset is that ability
409
00:17:36.305 --> 00:17:39.285
to continuously peel away the layers and discover.
410
00:17:40.005 --> 00:17:41.205
'cause discovery is critical.
411
00:17:41.345 --> 00:17:44.885
You know, for, for all of us, um, going through our work
412
00:17:44.885 --> 00:17:47.765
and life, I think we're constantly discovering,
413
00:17:47.855 --> 00:17:49.840
constantly uncovering new things
414
00:17:50.385 --> 00:17:52.365
and saying, look, how might I use that?
415
00:17:52.595 --> 00:17:54.485
What might that mean? How could it make
416
00:17:54.585 --> 00:17:56.085
my, you know, day better?
417
00:17:56.495 --> 00:17:58.445
Voice typing? There's a really good example.
418
00:17:58.665 --> 00:18:02.045
So I do most of my emails now by voice typing.
419
00:18:02.745 --> 00:18:04.165
Um, and I do that
420
00:18:04.165 --> 00:18:09.125
because I've discovered that it will reduce my eye fatigue,
421
00:18:09.695 --> 00:18:12.245
it'll reduce my kind of finger fatigue.
422
00:18:12.825 --> 00:18:14.485
Um, and it also means I can go
423
00:18:14.485 --> 00:18:17.525
for a walk in the fresh air depending on the, the, the,
424
00:18:17.525 --> 00:18:19.885
the content I'm creating and the sensitivity of it.
425
00:18:20.485 --> 00:18:22.645
I can go and, you know, write a paper
426
00:18:22.945 --> 00:18:24.405
or write a response to something
427
00:18:24.745 --> 00:18:27.645
and have a walk in the countryside or, or on the beach
428
00:18:28.105 --> 00:18:31.005
or, you know, get in a kayak and write your response.
429
00:18:31.035 --> 00:18:33.445
Fantastic. Because when the blood is flowing
430
00:18:33.445 --> 00:18:34.965
and you're moving, you're, you're kind
431
00:18:34.965 --> 00:18:36.405
of thinking better anyway as well.
432
00:18:36.945 --> 00:18:39.805
So yeah, it's just discover new ways of doing things.
433
00:18:40.425 --> 00:18:43.805
Um, and I think don't, don't get stuck in your ways.
434
00:18:44.045 --> 00:18:45.085
I think it's really easy.
435
00:18:45.435 --> 00:18:47.045
It's part of the human condition, isn't it?
436
00:18:47.045 --> 00:18:50.405
We tend to, we tend to like doing things the way
437
00:18:50.405 --> 00:18:52.845
that we do them, but there's an old saying, isn't there,
438
00:18:52.845 --> 00:18:53.925
if you do what you've always done,
439
00:18:53.925 --> 00:18:55.205
you'll get what you've always got.
440
00:18:55.545 --> 00:18:58.085
And I kind of feel like that's the premise
441
00:18:58.985 --> 00:19:02.045
to learning more about what tech can offer and deliver.
442
00:19:02.445 --> 00:19:04.525
'cause what you quickly discover is
443
00:19:05.115 --> 00:19:08.925
there's more capability there, there's more efficiency,
444
00:19:08.925 --> 00:19:10.725
there's more confidence,
445
00:19:10.865 --> 00:19:13.965
and you just need to peel away that layer and discover it.
446
00:19:14.555 --> 00:19:16.885
Fantastic. And I suppose we've covered kind
447
00:19:16.885 --> 00:19:20.085
of autonomous cars, kind of looking at, um, challenges
448
00:19:20.085 --> 00:19:23.485
around um, BA receives and things like that.
449
00:19:23.505 --> 00:19:25.565
Are there any other kind of emerging technologies
450
00:19:25.565 --> 00:19:26.845
that you are really excited about
451
00:19:26.845 --> 00:19:28.165
that's kind of coming down the line?
452
00:19:28.675 --> 00:19:29.845
Yeah, I mean, I, I alluded
453
00:19:29.865 --> 00:19:31.685
to smart glasses kind of earlier on.
454
00:19:31.805 --> 00:19:33.965
I think one of the things that's interesting there is
455
00:19:33.965 --> 00:19:36.005
that you've got several products on the market
456
00:19:36.025 --> 00:19:39.165
and now that enable you, once you've put them on your,
457
00:19:39.195 --> 00:19:42.165
your face enable you to connect, to
458
00:19:42.945 --> 00:19:46.005
be it a Nintendo switch or a large display.
459
00:19:46.465 --> 00:19:48.845
And all of a sudden you've got the opportunity
460
00:19:49.505 --> 00:19:52.045
to have a 100 inch screen, right,
461
00:19:52.275 --> 00:19:54.045
essentially sitting on your nose bridge.
462
00:19:54.545 --> 00:19:58.365
Now, clearly as that begins to scale
463
00:19:59.065 --> 00:20:03.485
and develop, that's got massive implications for real estate
464
00:20:04.025 --> 00:20:06.325
and for the way that we think about organizations
465
00:20:06.425 --> 00:20:07.805
and the way that we think about work.
466
00:20:08.265 --> 00:20:12.835
You know, sometimes the most productive place to be,
467
00:20:13.335 --> 00:20:15.075
you know, when writing, for example,
468
00:20:15.355 --> 00:20:17.355
I never sit at my desk at home
469
00:20:17.855 --> 00:20:19.915
and write creatively, doesn't happen.
470
00:20:20.295 --> 00:20:24.555
So I take myself off to the forest floor or the coast
471
00:20:24.775 --> 00:20:27.835
or you know, a favorite cafe and I write there
472
00:20:28.355 --> 00:20:30.315
'cause that's where the creativity comes or go on a walk.
473
00:20:30.695 --> 00:20:32.555
So I've been able to do that with
474
00:20:32.555 --> 00:20:34.915
that technology wherever works for you.
475
00:20:35.835 --> 00:20:38.635
I think huge, you know, there's a huge opportunity there.
476
00:20:39.175 --> 00:20:41.275
And then likewise, thinking about what you can deliver
477
00:20:41.275 --> 00:20:45.965
with ai, thinking about that multimodal input
478
00:20:45.965 --> 00:20:49.050
of information and multimodal interrogation of information.
479
00:20:49.475 --> 00:20:52.045
There's an opportunity for, for all of us, I think,
480
00:20:52.105 --> 00:20:54.965
to kinda look into new, new ways of doing things.
481
00:20:55.805 --> 00:20:59.205
I think a kinda critical concern throughout all
482
00:20:59.205 --> 00:21:01.605
of this though, is the needs.
483
00:21:01.785 --> 00:21:03.285
And I think, I think blind
484
00:21:03.285 --> 00:21:05.365
and partially say to people, particularly here,
485
00:21:05.505 --> 00:21:09.555
but not exclusively, I think let's imagine
486
00:21:09.555 --> 00:21:11.115
that when we've got an experience,
487
00:21:11.235 --> 00:21:14.155
a tech-based experience, how does it work?
488
00:21:14.855 --> 00:21:16.955
If you cannot see that a hundred inch screen,
489
00:21:17.055 --> 00:21:18.795
what's the interaction model like?
490
00:21:19.455 --> 00:21:23.315
Is it, is it a comparable, an equitable
491
00:21:23.945 --> 00:21:26.195
alternative to using the screen?
492
00:21:26.195 --> 00:21:28.035
That's, that's a big, big challenge.
493
00:21:28.415 --> 00:21:31.035
So if we think about, you know, it all comes down
494
00:21:31.035 --> 00:21:32.555
to designing beyond vision.
495
00:21:32.905 --> 00:21:35.595
What, what's the, what's the experience like for a user?
496
00:21:36.295 --> 00:21:40.155
But if you can't see the display, is there an equitable
497
00:21:40.865 --> 00:21:42.555
user experience on offer?
498
00:21:42.975 --> 00:21:45.075
That's the key question, I think. Um, so
499
00:21:45.075 --> 00:21:46.315
What accommodations have you seen
500
00:21:46.315 --> 00:21:48.875
that have had a wider impact on your sector?
501
00:21:49.775 --> 00:21:50.915
You know, there are so many.
502
00:21:51.125 --> 00:21:52.795
Let's just think about, first of all,
503
00:21:52.795 --> 00:21:56.035
things like the curb cut, as the Americans call it.
504
00:21:56.305 --> 00:21:57.795
Yeah. So the kind of drop curb,
505
00:21:57.935 --> 00:21:59.755
that's great if you're a wheelchair user,
506
00:22:00.055 --> 00:22:03.515
but actually as a dad with a, with a buggy a few years ago,
507
00:22:03.575 --> 00:22:04.995
really appreciated those.
508
00:22:05.575 --> 00:22:07.355
Um, and actually just makes it easier
509
00:22:07.495 --> 00:22:09.795
for anyone who's unloading something from their car
510
00:22:09.855 --> 00:22:12.795
and trying to move it across the road or into their house.
511
00:22:13.135 --> 00:22:14.355
So, you know, ramped
512
00:22:14.375 --> 00:22:16.275
and smoothed access would be one example.
513
00:22:16.845 --> 00:22:20.955
Maybe even power doors, your hands, busy doors actually able
514
00:22:20.955 --> 00:22:23.075
to open for you automatically.
515
00:22:23.425 --> 00:22:25.675
Fantastic. But then bringing it down to the level
516
00:22:25.855 --> 00:22:28.595
of consumer technologies, audiobooks,
517
00:22:28.595 --> 00:22:32.435
we've seen a massive explosion in the use of audiobooks
518
00:22:32.435 --> 00:22:36.075
and the popularity of them for podcasts as well, for audio.
519
00:22:37.015 --> 00:22:40.075
Um, you know, so kind of eyes free ways
520
00:22:40.095 --> 00:22:41.195
of consuming content.
521
00:22:41.305 --> 00:22:43.395
Everybody loves them. Why, why would you not?
522
00:22:43.895 --> 00:22:47.075
Um, and, and again, you know, designed
523
00:22:47.295 --> 00:22:49.955
to be something originally that would be about people
524
00:22:49.955 --> 00:22:51.955
with sight loss, but actually super
525
00:22:51.955 --> 00:22:53.915
helpful for, for everybody.
526
00:22:54.415 --> 00:22:56.395
Um, and, and lots of examples of that.
527
00:22:56.555 --> 00:22:58.555
I guess if you even think about crossing the road
528
00:22:58.615 --> 00:23:02.195
and using the rotating cone underneath the, the, the,
529
00:23:02.255 --> 00:23:04.875
the crossing control, that's fantastic.
530
00:23:05.495 --> 00:23:08.275
You know, if, if the weather's bad, if you've got kids
531
00:23:08.275 --> 00:23:09.555
with you and you want to show them
532
00:23:09.935 --> 00:23:12.715
how someone who's got Joe sensory loss might cross the road.
533
00:23:13.415 --> 00:23:14.835
Um, there are so many examples.
534
00:23:14.905 --> 00:23:18.035
Read aloud, you know, read alouds a fantastic capability.
535
00:23:18.735 --> 00:23:20.115
Um, a lot of the stuff we're starting
536
00:23:20.135 --> 00:23:23.675
to see in browsers now across the technology spectrum
537
00:23:24.205 --> 00:23:27.875
where you can have AI summarize an article for you
538
00:23:27.975 --> 00:23:30.395
and you can have two voices, one asking questions
539
00:23:30.975 --> 00:23:32.955
and one providing the responses.
540
00:23:33.735 --> 00:23:37.095
Um, again, great from a disability perspective,
541
00:23:37.915 --> 00:23:41.455
but really good from a general usability perspective.
542
00:23:41.975 --> 00:23:44.975
I love listening to stuff while I'm cooking. Do you know?
543
00:23:45.225 --> 00:23:48.285
So again, that, that it suits me
544
00:23:48.285 --> 00:23:50.245
to listen from an access point of view,
545
00:23:50.665 --> 00:23:54.165
but it also suits me to be, you know, making my curry
546
00:23:54.305 --> 00:23:57.285
and listening to podcast at the same time. So
547
00:23:57.285 --> 00:23:59.045
From an ELO employer's perspective,
548
00:23:59.475 --> 00:24:01.445
what responsibilities do you think that they need
549
00:24:01.445 --> 00:24:03.325
to be really focusing on to make sure
550
00:24:03.325 --> 00:24:05.645
that they're meeting the needs of, of all their users,
551
00:24:05.645 --> 00:24:08.365
whether it's from a accessibility perspective,
552
00:24:08.505 --> 00:24:10.365
an inclusion perspective, just to make sure
553
00:24:10.365 --> 00:24:12.765
that nobody within a workforce is, is left out.
554
00:24:13.605 --> 00:24:14.765
I think it's really critical
555
00:24:14.795 --> 00:24:17.605
that all employers look at the provisions
556
00:24:17.605 --> 00:24:20.805
of their quality act in the European Accessibility Act.
557
00:24:21.265 --> 00:24:23.445
But you know, if you wanted to distill that down,
558
00:24:23.715 --> 00:24:26.805
have you got a culture where you're listening,
559
00:24:27.305 --> 00:24:28.445
asking questions
560
00:24:28.705 --> 00:24:31.965
and responding positively to people's needs?
561
00:24:32.065 --> 00:24:33.325
And are you being proactive?
562
00:24:33.385 --> 00:24:36.525
Are you asking questions to make sure
563
00:24:36.525 --> 00:24:38.965
that people can receive support that's available?
564
00:24:39.745 --> 00:24:41.805
Are you showing people that it's possible
565
00:24:41.805 --> 00:24:44.925
to do things in different ways to make accommodations,
566
00:24:45.265 --> 00:24:47.085
you know, are, do you feel like you're an
567
00:24:47.085 --> 00:24:48.325
example of good practice?
568
00:24:48.565 --> 00:24:50.125
I think that's a really key question.
569
00:24:50.785 --> 00:24:53.165
And you know, for all of us, every single person,
570
00:24:53.255 --> 00:24:56.405
every organization, let's have accessibility
571
00:24:56.465 --> 00:24:59.525
and inclusion on the agenda at every meeting.
572
00:24:59.945 --> 00:25:02.645
And let's have people across the company
573
00:25:02.865 --> 00:25:05.285
who are championing it, who are bringing things in
574
00:25:05.665 --> 00:25:07.405
and who are saying, look, here's another way
575
00:25:07.405 --> 00:25:08.445
that we can do something.
576
00:25:09.225 --> 00:25:12.285
If an individual needs adjustments, let's make sure
577
00:25:12.285 --> 00:25:15.685
that we can provide those to the person in the best
578
00:25:16.205 --> 00:25:19.245
possible way and in a really timely fashion as well.
579
00:25:19.625 --> 00:25:22.605
So we hear horror stories about people waiting weeks,
580
00:25:22.605 --> 00:25:24.645
sometimes months for adjustments.
581
00:25:25.575 --> 00:25:28.685
Let's get it down to the level of, you know,
582
00:25:28.835 --> 00:25:30.845
when you order something online on your phone
583
00:25:30.845 --> 00:25:33.085
and it arrives the next day, that's the level
584
00:25:33.085 --> 00:25:35.885
of service we need to provide to people
585
00:25:36.425 --> 00:25:38.245
in the workplace who need adjustments.
586
00:25:38.515 --> 00:25:41.365
What we'll see when we can deliver that level of adjustment
587
00:25:41.365 --> 00:25:43.485
and that level of responsiveness,
588
00:25:44.095 --> 00:25:48.645
we'll see fewer friction points, more integration at a,
589
00:25:48.645 --> 00:25:49.725
at a happier workforce.
590
00:25:50.105 --> 00:25:53.645
And, and just the mindset that thinks about the fact that
591
00:25:54.825 --> 00:25:56.085
not everyone will see,
592
00:25:56.305 --> 00:25:59.085
not everyone will hear some people think differently.
593
00:25:59.505 --> 00:26:01.405
So actually what we need to do is be able
594
00:26:01.425 --> 00:26:04.645
to put in place responsive policies
595
00:26:04.645 --> 00:26:06.525
and practices that support people
596
00:26:06.945 --> 00:26:08.485
and then we need to monitor those as well.
597
00:26:08.505 --> 00:26:10.325
So we need to be able to say, how's that doing?
598
00:26:10.835 --> 00:26:12.885
Have we done well on it? Could we do better?
599
00:26:13.595 --> 00:26:16.125
What do we need to do to make it more,
600
00:26:16.235 --> 00:26:17.925
more fulfilling and more inclusive?
601
00:26:18.945 --> 00:26:21.245
And do you think the legislation that's, um,
602
00:26:21.305 --> 00:26:23.765
that's in place at the moment goes far enough to support,
603
00:26:24.725 --> 00:26:26.665
um, people with, with disabilities?
604
00:26:27.505 --> 00:26:30.225
I think the current legislation clearly doesn't go far
605
00:26:30.225 --> 00:26:35.185
enough because it becomes about people taking cases to court
606
00:26:35.285 --> 00:26:36.345
and having test cases.
607
00:26:36.815 --> 00:26:38.345
What would be a lot better is
608
00:26:38.345 --> 00:26:41.585
to actually have a proactive requirement for people
609
00:26:41.885 --> 00:26:46.125
to demonstrate their ability to make changes,
610
00:26:46.345 --> 00:26:47.485
to make accommodations.
611
00:26:47.665 --> 00:26:51.005
So to show how it would be possible to do something
612
00:26:51.005 --> 00:26:53.485
with a large display or with speech
613
00:26:54.065 --> 00:26:56.885
or in a different workplace environment.
614
00:26:57.185 --> 00:27:00.325
So just demonstrate, have a requirement to demonstrate
615
00:27:00.835 --> 00:27:03.205
flexibility and that ability to adapt
616
00:27:03.785 --> 00:27:05.365
and also to incentivize that.
617
00:27:05.485 --> 00:27:07.365
I think the legislation at the moment says, look,
618
00:27:07.545 --> 00:27:09.365
if you don't do this, X will happen.
619
00:27:09.975 --> 00:27:12.405
Let's turn it around and make it much more about
620
00:27:12.745 --> 00:27:15.125
how can we enable every individual in the team
621
00:27:15.785 --> 00:27:17.085
to deliver their best work.
622
00:27:17.465 --> 00:27:20.965
How can we, how can you as a line manager enable the people
623
00:27:20.985 --> 00:27:25.285
who work for you to deliver to the best of their ability
624
00:27:26.105 --> 00:27:27.485
and to feel supported?
625
00:27:27.785 --> 00:27:29.925
And, and that's when, that's when the magic happens.
626
00:27:30.785 --> 00:27:32.245
And obviously with this new technology,
627
00:27:32.245 --> 00:27:33.645
there was an associated cost.
628
00:27:34.345 --> 00:27:36.165
Do you find that, that the technology
629
00:27:36.825 --> 00:27:40.085
and the cost kind of balances itself out over time so
630
00:27:40.085 --> 00:27:42.445
that it is accessible for more people to be able to kind
631
00:27:42.445 --> 00:27:44.965
of get the hands on kind of the new things like the glasses
632
00:27:45.305 --> 00:27:46.845
and, and those sorts of technologies?
633
00:27:47.965 --> 00:27:51.205
A lot of mainstream technology features more accessibility
634
00:27:51.535 --> 00:27:53.845
baked in, but we need to be really mindful of the fact
635
00:27:53.845 --> 00:27:57.605
that some people will still require, um,
636
00:27:57.815 --> 00:27:59.845
third party assistive technologies
637
00:27:59.915 --> 00:28:01.525
that can be quite expensive.
638
00:28:01.905 --> 00:28:04.605
So there's a really important scheme in place called the
639
00:28:04.605 --> 00:28:05.685
access to work scheme,
640
00:28:06.065 --> 00:28:08.245
and every employer should be aware of that
641
00:28:08.425 --> 00:28:11.245
and should be encouraging their staff to use it
642
00:28:11.305 --> 00:28:12.605
to make an application to it.
643
00:28:12.985 --> 00:28:15.965
And that scheme will basically share the cost
644
00:28:16.025 --> 00:28:18.885
and ensure that it's not, there's no disadvantage
645
00:28:19.185 --> 00:28:22.205
for an employer in recruiting someone with a disability,
646
00:28:22.305 --> 00:28:25.165
so the additional cost can be supported.
647
00:28:25.585 --> 00:28:27.205
So it doesn't become a case of
648
00:28:27.755 --> 00:28:29.645
employing someone without a disability
649
00:28:29.875 --> 00:28:32.285
because they're gonna be cheaper than a person with.
650
00:28:32.285 --> 00:28:35.005
That should never happen. But I think we need to do more
651
00:28:35.065 --> 00:28:36.445
to promote access to work
652
00:28:36.905 --> 00:28:41.125
and also to promote that sense of looking at accommodations
653
00:28:41.265 --> 00:28:44.645
and constantly assessing what it's possible to do and,
654
00:28:44.645 --> 00:28:47.125
and how we can optimize the workplace for people.
655
00:28:47.345 --> 00:28:51.765
You know, how can we use digital to optimize the workplace
656
00:28:51.905 --> 00:28:53.565
for everybody who works there,
657
00:28:54.085 --> 00:28:56.805
whatever their capability is now and into the future.
658
00:28:57.975 --> 00:29:00.385
Fantastic. And then if there were any tips
659
00:29:00.385 --> 00:29:03.305
that you could give to, to employers, if you've got any kind
660
00:29:03.305 --> 00:29:06.505
of top tips if to kind of help drive, um,
661
00:29:06.505 --> 00:29:08.585
innovation when they're looking at accessibility,
662
00:29:08.655 --> 00:29:10.385
whether it's kind of looking at kind
663
00:29:10.385 --> 00:29:11.945
of new use cases for ai,
664
00:29:13.685 --> 00:29:16.985
We can offer support to employers of all kinds
665
00:29:17.005 --> 00:29:20.465
and all, all industries and all sizes of company as well.
666
00:29:20.565 --> 00:29:22.065
So we'd be really happy to talk
667
00:29:22.065 --> 00:29:25.705
to anybody who's embarking on that journey really to say,
668
00:29:25.705 --> 00:29:28.625
look, how can we optimize for inclusive design?
669
00:29:28.695 --> 00:29:31.745
Whether that's from the point of view of product or service
670
00:29:32.005 --> 00:29:33.265
or people or culture.
671
00:29:33.885 --> 00:29:35.505
You work across all of those areas.
672
00:29:36.305 --> 00:29:38.585
I think it starts with a listening exercise.
673
00:29:38.765 --> 00:29:41.645
It also often starts with an analysis
674
00:29:41.645 --> 00:29:44.765
of what's happening now and how could it be optimized,
675
00:29:45.185 --> 00:29:47.325
but you know, where are the opportunities
676
00:29:47.785 --> 00:29:50.965
and how can you factor them into your business plan when
677
00:29:50.965 --> 00:29:52.965
you're developing a new product, for example,
678
00:29:53.625 --> 00:29:55.565
what's the inclusive design component
679
00:29:55.745 --> 00:29:56.885
of that product journey?
680
00:29:56.945 --> 00:29:58.845
That's a really good question to ask
681
00:29:59.345 --> 00:30:00.565
before you've even started
682
00:30:00.715 --> 00:30:03.605
because you can do it without any additional
683
00:30:03.635 --> 00:30:05.325
cost if you factor in. And,
684
00:30:05.905 --> 00:30:07.485
And I think as you say, when you're looking at those
685
00:30:07.485 --> 00:30:08.725
things, having the right representation,
686
00:30:08.915 --> 00:30:12.645
when you are creating new products, new offerings, kind
687
00:30:12.645 --> 00:30:15.645
of making sure that that everybody's kind of represented
688
00:30:15.665 --> 00:30:17.325
and, and can have an impact.
689
00:30:18.105 --> 00:30:20.245
And also it's a say really into kind of
690
00:30:20.245 --> 00:30:21.645
how it could affect them directly.
691
00:30:21.925 --> 00:30:23.845
'cause I think it's, it must be very difficult.
692
00:30:24.465 --> 00:30:27.845
Um, it must be difficult for you to kind of make sure
693
00:30:27.845 --> 00:30:29.285
that people are always there.
694
00:30:29.285 --> 00:30:31.485
So there's so big a spectrum, isn't it, is what I'm trying
695
00:30:31.485 --> 00:30:34.845
to say around kind of getting people involved, making sure
696
00:30:34.845 --> 00:30:37.605
that you've got representation from kind of all areas.
697
00:30:37.825 --> 00:30:38.885
It must be really important.
698
00:30:39.765 --> 00:30:41.565
I think it's a constant challenge, you know,
699
00:30:41.625 --> 00:30:44.565
and I think as long as we're looking to constantly improve
700
00:30:45.185 --> 00:30:46.525
and do better and,
701
00:30:46.545 --> 00:30:48.365
and not resting on our laurels, I think
702
00:30:48.365 --> 00:30:49.725
that's gotta be the attitude.
703
00:30:50.115 --> 00:30:52.045
It's kind of how can we do more, you know,
704
00:30:52.075 --> 00:30:54.725
even even companies who think they're doing a lot,
705
00:30:55.365 --> 00:30:57.325
a healthy attitude is, you know,
706
00:30:57.465 --> 00:31:00.645
we think we've made great progress, but we want to do more.
707
00:31:00.905 --> 00:31:04.325
And how can we do more talking to disabled people, talking
708
00:31:04.385 --> 00:31:06.125
to potential candidates.
709
00:31:06.825 --> 00:31:09.565
But also, you know, if you've got a recruitment image on
710
00:31:09.565 --> 00:31:13.325
your website, for example, is there any element of that
711
00:31:13.635 --> 00:31:15.565
that communicates inclusiveness?
712
00:31:16.025 --> 00:31:17.485
Is there an element that we'd say
713
00:31:17.485 --> 00:31:20.445
to somebody who's a wheelchair user or who's blind
714
00:31:20.505 --> 00:31:22.805
or who's, um, you know, hard
715
00:31:22.805 --> 00:31:24.725
of hearing you'd be welcome here.
716
00:31:25.025 --> 00:31:27.485
Um, you know, what, what, what does that messaging look
717
00:31:27.485 --> 00:31:30.045
and feel like and how does it work in practice?
718
00:31:31.055 --> 00:31:32.805
Robin, thank you so much for today
719
00:31:32.865 --> 00:31:34.765
and sharing your insight into the stories.
720
00:31:35.525 --> 00:31:37.325
I think if there's one thing to remember, it's
721
00:31:37.325 --> 00:31:39.965
that building a truly inclusive workplace is about people,
722
00:31:40.385 --> 00:31:42.325
the culture and the smart use of technology.
723
00:31:43.105 --> 00:31:44.645
And when you get all three working together,
724
00:31:44.875 --> 00:31:46.205
everybody really benefits.