The Holy Standard
Welcome to The Holy Standard - the podcast for women who don’t just want to grow, they want to lead. Here, we build spiritual authority, internal systems and bold standards that make you unshakable. If you’re done with watered-down faith, fluffy self-help and surface-level success... you’re in the right room. Let’s raise the bar and our standards.
The Holy Standard
Kingdom Wealth: The Lie of Poverty, Shame and Staying Small with Rachel Wortman
Rachel Wortman and I dive deep into the complex relationship between money and faith, exploring how shame and false humility can prevent Christian women from stepping into their full calling.
• Growing up in privilege but later taking a vow of poverty after seeing money make people sad and stressed
• Breaking free from shame-based thinking about wealth and recognizing God's desire for our abundance
• Understanding that Jesus demonstrated a life without shame through parables like the Prodigal Son
• Recognizing that God's provision typically comes through empowering the work of our hands
• Distinguishing between blessing (which adds no sorrow) and worldly wealth (which brings anxiety)
• Seeing how prosperity in the hands of Kingdom-minded women solves real problems
• Learning to carry blessing "lightly" without attachment while maximizing its impact
• Shifting from a knight mentality (serving from underneath) to a child of the King (serving from beside)
• Examining whether our ambition flows from self-glorification or Kingdom advancement
Follow Rachel on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachelwortman?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=MXdycmtjenU0ajV6
Follow Rachel on Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@therachelwortman?_t=ZS-8zTmlatb7lE&_r=1
Check out Rachel's books "The Expansion Mandate" and "The Money Mandate" to continue this journey of aligning your finances with God's purposes.
The Expansion Mandate
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1734099488?psc=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_ct_X6H1QW2BM8V6CEZ4GB94
The Money Mandate:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1734099445?psc=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_ct_X6H1QW2BM8V6CEZ4GB94_1
Welcome to the Holy Standard, the podcast for bold, God-led women with strong spirits, sharp minds and high standards. This is where kingdom authority meets high-performance discipline. Together, we're raising the standard for what it means to be a woman of God in business. Holy and high-level you guys. Today I am joined by, honestly, one of my biggest inspirations in the space. If I'm being honest, just before we hopped on this podcast, I let her know before I even relaunched this podcast. I was sitting with the list of guests and the list of topics that I wanted to have and when I tell you I was sitting on this one, she was at the top of my list. I'm so excited to announce that Rachel Wortman is in the room to talk about Money in the Kingdom so excited, Seriously so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so here for it and I just want to start with this, because every time you go on a podcast, we already know everyone's going to be like tell us your story, and I just feel like that's overdone. So I want to start and I would love to know personally, because I've had the privilege of just getting to know a little bit of your background just through, like us, chit chatting through the DMS, but what brought you to having the interest just in money and the kingdom and being in that space? I personally feel like it's a space not a lot of especially pastors, want to touch or go, so I just I want to hear all about it go.
Speaker 2:So I just I want to hear all about it. Yes, okay, great question. So I actually grew up in a pretty privileged family and we were not really. My dad was not a believer, my mom was, but she wasn't really walking in her faith. And then, randomly, my dad's mom, so my grandpa, he was the finance pastor for his denomination, so he, he, was always really passionate about pastors in particular having good stewardship because, like so many, pastors don't build retirement, they don't know how they're not making enough money for that, all that kind of stuff. So I think in my DNA I'm a little bit hardwired for that.
Speaker 2:But when I was growing up I was around like people who have just tremendous wealth and influence. I I mean politicians like household name brand, you know companies, I could tell you their name. You're like, oh, that's like down the street from my house and I was around people like that all the time and what I saw was like money just makes you sad, it makes you stressed, it makes you, um, paranoid for a lot of people. And so I actually graduated high school and I took a vow of poverty and I was like, whatever that was, I don't want it Like. I got saved when I was 12 years old and I just wanted to live my life in ministry for the Lord and I wanted to be a missionary in some like poor country, not, you know, not that that's bad, but like I just wanted nothing to do with anything with money and, um, I kind of ran from the Lord. That's like. That was like my rebellion, which is so funny because a lot of people have. I was never a rebellious kid, so my rebellion was like I don't want nice things, which is just so strange. Anyways, so I, when I eventually came back around, when, gosh, it was probably about 13 years ago, we obviously renounced the vow of poverty, because that is not a good thing to have in your life. Yeah, if you've ever done that, please break it right now in the name of Jesus.
Speaker 2:But I realized I think wealthy people, I think successful people, might be one of the most unreached people groups in the world, because there's so much paranoia, there's so much, like you know, they feel like people in ministry want something from them all the time and so they live in this really different mentality. And God started really for lack of a better word calling me into that space and really challenging me to be more vocal, to talk about it, because in my own life I had seen God do crazy things. I mean, if I told you some of the stories, your jaw would be on the floor, like the things God's done financially for us and their principles that we all can access. We just don't talk about them because we're embarrassed, we're worried what people are going to think. We think you know, I kind of grew up like if anybody knows you have money, they're going to try to kidnap you, like that.
Speaker 2:Just crazy things. So I just several years ago was like I'm done with that mentality. Too many people are suffering. If I have to be the voice, if it takes me to be the voice, I'm going to do that. And that's how I just finally was like I got to rip the bandaid off and start talking about it. And it's been amazing to see what God has done on the other side, because people are so hungry to talk about what God thinks about money and it's not just we'll get into it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so that's the story. I'm so, I'm so excited for this. Like, first of all, take up as much space as possible, like, if you want to go on a 10 minute storytelling rant like you, you do it, we're so here for it. And I I just definitely think you know testimony, especially around finance, is such a huge thing because it just increases so many of our faith. If, if, maybe somebody is listening to this and they feel discouraged being able to be like, oh, he still does miracles. It's funny because we can be in the word all day long and be like he split the red sea, but then it's like I need 50 bucks, it's like he won't come through. There's so crazy.
Speaker 1:But to pick out something that I think is I just want. I want to hear your opinion on so. So hard and I have this in my notes because I see it in almost every single Christian, especially business owner is the false humility that says I can't and I shouldn't want nice things right. There's like shame around it for whatever reason, like it's less spiritual to have money. So I just want to hear your thoughts on that and how you're able to really overcome that.
Speaker 2:I really think it's because somewhere along the way there was this belief that came in that if you're blessed, that blessing means material wealth, and so we in our flesh have tied that together. But then you have this spiritual principle that Jesus, out of his own mouth, said that where your treasure is there your heart will be. So I think, spiritually speaking, god is the one that tied our heart to our things. We can trace this back even to Cain and Abel, right outside the Garden of Eden. So maybe in the Garden of Eden this wasn't the case, maybe, I think it probably was. But the second you step out of the garden, from that point forward, there is this let's call it divine intersection of what we have and how we like, what we believe. They're tied together. And so we really struggle with that. And the challenge is that we struggle, but we're actually supposed to struggle as an invitation to go closer to the Lord, but we struggle in shame and then we back away from God, so we kind of miss the point altogether. So when somebody is saying to me, like I'm really like, whether you're struggling in the false humility or you're on the other side and all you want to do is have, you know, a Bugatti and designer, everything like both of those are the same struggle that comes from this invitation from the Holy Spirit to find our identity in Christ alone, to find our acceptance and our worth. Like we're not walking around going. Trust me, I'm blessed. I'm blessed because I have all these nice things. We're actually like living blessed, and the fruit of it is in the fact that we sleep peacefully at night. The fruit of it is in the fact that we're not wondering, if the stock market falls and I lose a million dollars, that I'm going to like that my life is over, like that's the fruit that comes. And so when we come into the false humility kind of stuff, what we're really doing is trying to mask this shame and the shame. And so I do want to go on a tangent about this because I am so passionate. Absolutely Okay, this is sort of money related, but sort of more than money.
Speaker 2:Shame from the beginning of time we're talking time post the Garden of Eden OK, shame was and is the world's punishment system. Shame is how we keep people in line, as moms and dads, as governments. As you know, from the beginning and you can actually trace it in history Every single culture has shame built into it. In Japan it's the sabuku, where you take a sword and you literally commit ritual suicide if you brought shame onto your family Crazy. In Arabia, in the Middle East, we have the cutting off your hand the Aladdin story, which is actually rooted in real story. Like they're going to cut your hand off and then you're going to walk with a stump so that everybody knows that you were such a shameful person that you committed, you know, theft or whatever. Every single in the Middle Ages they would what do you call it? Nail your ear to the post in the middle of town if you did something shameful for 24 hours, and so the whole town will be walking around looking at you like in your shame. So shame is deeply rooted in the human experience. Every single tradition, every culture has shame practices.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is important because when Jesus tells the prodigal son story, what he's doing is demonstrating a life without shame. So the father in this story is actually debunking multiple points of shame culture in the story. If we understand how the Middle Eastern people lived at that time, how the Jews lived at that time, we can see that, for example, to ask your father for your inheritance absolutely shameful. It did happen, it was allowed. But here's the kicker In that culture. If here's the kicker in that culture. If your father said, okay, you can have your share of the inheritance, like this one did in the story, you were obligated to reserve some of that money to take care of your father until he died. That was like the rule.
Speaker 2:So when this son takes his money and then just is like, screw you, I'm not thinking about you anymore. That is deeply shameful. That would be like you and I like I can't even think of an example, like somebody you know, I don't know what's the craziest thing you can think of. They'll be so embarrassing Like they go on. You're like a pastor's child goes on OnlyFans. It's like the only thing I could think of. I'm like literally trying to search my mind Like what's the worst thing I could think of? Right yeah, thing I could think of, right yeah, so deeply shameful, so deeply like. And so as we all hear that and we're like that would be so bad, that's exactly the same reaction that the people listening to Jesus would have had and we could go all through that story. There's like four or five moments where deep shame was in.
Speaker 2:Jesus was demonstrating that the father in the story, who is a representation of the father God, that he is not buying into the shame, that he's actually treating his children as if shame doesn't exist, because in heaven shame doesn't exist. It's not a punishment system in heaven. So, coming back to money, how does this work for you and I? We live in so much shame that we don't have enough or that we think we have too much, and what we're doing is punishing ourselves. But my question to people when they find themselves in is what are you punishing yourself for? Like existing, like needing to eat, right, like what are you actually punishing yourself for? And that begins the process. That question begins the process of truly breaking out of shame. Because if shame is punishment based and your punishment for your sin was already paid for on the cross, then what are you doing? By continuing to punishing yourself.
Speaker 2:So then we bring it into the concept of money. Right, it's so deep, it's so powerful. So we bring it into the concept of money and we start to say so then why, if Jesus, if Paul says in Romans, which is inspired by Jesus, there is now therefore no more condemnation. So if God has blessed you and your business is paying for your needs, you are able to give to people around you and you're able to invest into your future, you're able to set your children up so that they don't have to toil in the same way you did.
Speaker 2:If you are blessed by God for that which we all have the invitation to be blessed by God for that but if you're living in it, what are you doing? Accepting condemnation for the very thing that God brought into your life? It's like a stagnation. Right, we took one step forward, but then we pushed ourselves back through the condemnation. So this is why it's so important to really inspect ourselves, to bring our heart before God and say Lord, is there anything in me that is experiencing shame around money? Because what am I punishing myself for? You know?
Speaker 1:I could hear you talk all day long because I just think to it and what consistently I bring myself back to and even my clients, is I consistently just remind myself, like Jesus in himself said, I came to, came so that you have life and have it abundantly. And so many women especially have this feeling of, oh well, that's too greedy, I can't have that life pushing away from it, and I think you know you could also talk on this. But it becomes so much more than just about money. It becomes also about the calling that they forfeit, that God has placed on their life, because they're like no, no, no, no, I can't have good things, because I think I'm more spiritual when I struggle more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:And it's just not the case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a good point though, because we do when we are, when our pattern of needing Jesus is desperation first. We will never move past desperation, because that's what we think is the doorway into our relationship with Jesus. But in the Bible, the doorway or the gate, whatever we want to call it is Thanksgiving, it's the fear of the Lord. There's multiple things right, it's worship, it's praise, so we can actually move from the place of God. I only experience you come through for me when I'm desperate and when I'm like I need something. So we keep self-sabotaging to put ourselves in perpetual need Instead of going. Lord, would you teach me how? I mean, I have chills thinking about this. This is such a powerful concept Like, instead of just asking the Lord, would you teach me how to experience you from a place of gratitude? Would you teach me how to? Because if we're talking about who God is and how he exists in heaven and how we can access that here on the earth, he is not sitting around, stressed about money, Like there has never been one day. I mean, think about it like this Jesus himself is coming to the earth in the form of a baby. Right, he's like I got it, Mission accepted, I'm going to go have the craziest experience of my life. That's how I always think about it, Like, yeah, I'm going to shed my divinity, I'm going to go into this womb, you know whatever. But he's like but I'm going to need some money. And so what does he do?
Speaker 2:Three years most scholars believe three years before Jesus is born these wise men had been watching the stars. They knew that he was coming. The signs were all there from different prophecies that go back to the book of Daniel and Jeremiah. They have been tracking this, and so they go on a journey starting. Some people believe they started their journey three years before Jesus was born, with camels loaded with raw materials. So we think frankincense and myrrh and we're like oh interesting, no, no, no, no. It would be to us like a crypto wallet where somebody had bought Bitcoin at $5. We're talking about huge amounts of wealth loaded on these camels, and these were resources that Joseph could use to trade in the markets for two years while they were fleeing to Egypt because Herod was trying to kill the babies. So God resourced himself. God made sure his mother and father were not destitute. God, do you see what I'm saying Like? So we sit back and go.
Speaker 2:Oh but Lord, am I asking for too much because I want to be able to pay my mortgage this month or I want to be able to buy a house Like I know in your generation, like that's what everybody talks about in the news all the time how hard it is. The first house that we bought was $75,000 and, praise God, if you have ever seen the show fixer upper on TV, um, hgtv, joanna Gaines, they were in our church. Our house was next door to one of the ones that was on the first season of the show. So we're not talking about Cush living. We had it was, it was interesting, but our first house was $75,000. Had it, was it was interesting, but our first house was $75,000. The mortgage, I think, was like $450 a month.
Speaker 2:My husband and I were 22 years old and we were like then we got roommates, so we were like living high. You know, we were like that's amazing. We were in the ghetto, there were drug deals behind us constantly, but besides that it was awesome and uh, this is in the vow of poverty season of my life and anyways, so we. But when we sold that house, we sold it for 125,000 and it was just such a cool picture of like what, what you could do as you invest right and grow wealth, and all that story for another time. But my point in bringing this up is, in this day and age, to buy a house is like such a lofty goal for most people that just to be able to save up the down payment for that feels ridiculous. And so there's all these people saying, oh, it's just better to rent, et cetera. Except that when you're renting you don't have any ownership over what you're, what you do Right, somebody else is still in control of your life. Is it a bad goal to want to partner with the Lord to build enough income aside from your daily living expenses so, like we're talking about abundance right that you could store up for a down payment on a house? Why do we vilify that as something that's so bad? When God himself made these people track all through the desert to bring him so much gold that they could live without working for two plus years much gold that they could live without working for two plus years, so we're not talking about.
Speaker 2:Is it more spiritual to have money Like? That is the wrong conversation. That is what the enemy has done in the prosperity gospel gunk. That's happened. That's been like oh you're blessed If you can afford a Rolex, oh, you're like.
Speaker 2:I mean, I look at that and I'm like I know a lot of very well off people and most of them do not feel blessed. In fact, I can only think of a very small handful of them that actually feel like I'm blessed and they're not saying it to convince themselves that they actually feel it right, because their marriages struggle. They never see their spouse because they work so hard. More money, more problems is a real thing. It is hard. So we've distorted this by saying oh I'm so blessed. No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:The blessing is what's happening inside of you, but the provision is what happens as the fruit of you. Coming alongside what God has said, the world is designed for you to be able to provide for yourself. The most common thing in the Bible and this is such an important thing for people to catch God's provision in the Bible nine out of 10 times is not supernatural money that shows up in your bank account. It is God empowering the work of your hands. It is God empowering your yeah, you in your job. So we go God, provide for me, provide for me. And he's like. The seed is right there. What are you doing with it? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:God, would you just bring me a windfall. And the Lord's like. The seed is right there. What are you?
Speaker 2:doing with it. Do you know what I mean? God, would you just bring me a windfall? And the Lord's like what good is a windfall? Like, what are you going to do when the windfall is gone? You're going to have to get another one, right? So he goes. I've given you this field. I've given you tools. I've given you your talents, your resources, your abilities, your network of people, and if those aren't working for you, you have the ability to get a new one. Trade it out, do a different job, do a different skill set, get somebody like you to work with. You know like, but get a coach that can teach you how to actually work the ground that God has given to you so that you can provide. It's not providing for yourself. It's partnering with God in the way that he chooses to provide for you, because he is our source. Wow, we are getting really deep today.
Speaker 1:I'm eating this up and I love that you brought up how the father supplied himself through his ministry, because when I personally look at the rate in which I run my business, I'm often looking at, well, how did Jesus run his ministry and how can I partner with the same rhythm of, you know, often fasting and praying, because it's so easy to fall into the hustle culture in the business space. So I'm like, well, let me look at who I truly idolize. Right, let me look at at the father and how he did. And it's so interesting because in watching how he ran his ministry I never caught that that before it even started he had supplied himself, before that even happened, financially he was providing for himself. And I just think that is so important for all of us to catch of. Even God supplied for himself here on earth, because it's important for us to have it. And I just cannot say enough, just because I always think of for the amount of women who have that seed and they're like but no, no, no, why am I the one to grow it? You know, the biggest thing that I see, I think two things is number one why are you thinking of yourself so much in that?
Speaker 1:Because I, truthfully, what happened with me just in moving through my business was, I mean, if I'm truthful, I didn't really want to bring God into it. It felt like it was just my secret, like I love, just like going and spending time with him. I didn't want to feel like I was exploiting it, If that makes sense. I didn't want to feel like Jesus was on this poster board and I'm profiting from it, and so it kind of felt dirty in a way.
Speaker 1:But it's so funny because I was thinking all about myself and how I was going to be perceived and how it was going to work out for me and what my consequences were. And I came to this moment where I really had to sit and think about well, what are the consequences of me not doing it for other people? It's not about me anymore and start thinking about that, because I truly think that if more women stopped looking at the seed as a shameful bad thing of I shouldn't have those things, someone else should have them instead of me, which, first of all, doesn't exist, there is enough to go around. God is not a lack of resource, god, he is abundantly resourceful. You're not going to take something from somebody else, but just thinking about how, stepping into that calling on their life, it's actually dangerous for you not to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, think about it like this. So Jesus says you're like a city on a hill. You are the light of the world. And I think as women, especially, especially as women we look at ourselves and we're like, oh, I'm shining too bright because we're assuming that the light people see is our own light. But if you are in Christ Jesus, the light people see is God himself. And I'm not trying to say that we are God or we are like God in that way, but like. So what Jesus is telling us is you cannot be in me and not be shining, and the thing that's coming off of you is not you, it's not your own greatness, it's me. Every time you open your mouth, it's me.
Speaker 2:And the Lord told me one time, a couple of years ago, because I was struggling with this I'm like, I feel bad about, I don't like having attention on myself sometimes because it, because that can be a trigger that feels dangerous to a lot of people. Right, the visibility can feel dangerous because of past trauma or whatever, but the truth is Jesus is not capable of being anything less than full, intense light. So he cannot shrink himself down at 10% just for you to feel better about yourself. So and he like why would we ask him to right? So we have to get comfortable with like the incarnate God for lack of like for a big term, that we are seated in heavenly places with him, that we are one with him, that it is his spirit inside of us, that we are his temple, that we are where he chooses to dwell. I didn't think that was a good idea, but he chose that. And so when he wants to come out and be on display through my life or through your life, who are we to say that's too much. Jesus Like that's I don't, I don't know, maybe give me 50% of that and I'll be okay with that. And so I think the Lord is like man. I really wish you would just figure out that. It's just, it's all or nothing. And this is the dying to ourself process. This is what it means when the Bible says to pick up your cross daily. It is dying to our ego, it's dying to how we feel, like our reputation is going to take a hit when somebody is like oh, she's just a Jesus girl. And I'm like well, yeah, because every single good thing in my life is from him. So I don't exist without him. Nothing you like about me exists without him, right?
Speaker 2:I tell my kids all the time I'm like you know, because I'm I'm choosing. We'll see if this is the right way or the wrong way. In time, I've got three teenagers and an eight year old-old. But I tell my kids all the time we are living a blessed life. Yes, it's materially blessed, but honestly it is blessed because my husband and I love each other. We are peace carriers, we are anointed for the thing you know, like we are living in all the fruits of the spirit every day.
Speaker 2:And I tell my kids like we are blessed. And the reason why we're blessed is because dad and I go God's way, cause we stay on the narrow road, because we don't deviate from the path, because we say no to the things that are that our flesh wants, because they're not actually going to produce fruit. And I said, someday you guys are going to have to decide for yourself which road you want to be on. But you will not be experiencing these kinds of blessings any other way and I love you too much to make you think that you can go your own way and live the way we're living. You might have money in your bank account, because I'm a good mom and I can't say no to you. But you're not going to have the peace, you're not going to have the joy, you're not going to have the freedom, because that only exists in the person of Jesus.
Speaker 2:And so when we go back to thinking about am I too much, am I too bright? And so when we go back to thinking about, am I too much, am I too bright, am I too greedy, it's like okay, wrong question. The right question is how much have I yielded to who the Holy Spirit wants to be in my life? Oh, wow, how much have I gotten my own will out of the way? Jesus himself. We'll just use him again saying it's not my will. He's in the garden. Do you think he wants to go to the cross? No way, right? He's so stressed, his blood is coming out of his face. He's so stressed about it. And then he looks back and his friends are like not even I mean, I can't even imagine the level that would have felt as a betrayal. Yeah, and he's like like, have I not done all these things for you? You know what I mean. And in this moment of my need, and we get to see his humanity. There he's like in this moment of my need. You couldn't even understand what's happening right now, but he goes to the Lord. If this is the only way I'll do it, I will say to you this is to a small degree.
Speaker 2:This is how I felt when the Lord called me into business, because all I wanted to do my whole life was be in ministry. All I wanted to do my whole life was just love people and tell them about Jesus. And when God we did that, we were church planters. And when God said to me I want you to come out of the Sunday to Sunday schedule, I want to have more freedom in your schedule to send you places, and you can't be on this Sunday to Sunday schedule anymore, and I was like this is the only thing I've ever wanted to do. Lord. What Lord? What am I supposed to do with my life? And he goes. Well, I want you to be in business, and we already were in business, but it was like my husband's thing and I was a part of it and it was successful because of my part too. But I never saw it as me. I always saw it as like just being a good wife and giving him ideas and stuff sometimes, and the Lord's like I'm calling you into business and I had to repent afterwards. I told the Lord I want to be a daughter who's easily led. I'm clearly not easily led right now because I am wrestling you to the death.
Speaker 2:I do not want to go into this space. You know, I don't want to be known for business. I don't want to be known for talking about money. I want to be you know what I mean Like that was my will. But I have to look and I have to say okay. But, god, if this is your will, please teach me how to embrace it. Teach me how to be okay with it. Teach me how to stop cringing every time I talk about money. Teach me how to stop stressing about what people are going to do if they find out I have money. Teach me, you know and you said this so well just a moment ago and it became about them. It became about relationships like meeting you and these other people I've met, as God has breathed on my social media, to be able to say okay, but God, you've done such a powerful work in me. Who am I to prevent that from happening to somebody else? Because here's the thing, and I know I'm going long, but here's the thing.
Speaker 1:No, I love it. Go as long as you want.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing we miss. We think if we don't say yes, god will send somebody else. But show me in the Bible where that's true Moses. If Moses had said no, the people would have stayed in slavery because Moses was the only one having been raised in Pharaoh's house. Right, all of God's eggs were in Moses's basket, all of them. It was like if it's not you, I got to start over and find somebody else to raise them up. All the eggs were. If Moses had said no and I think this is part of why God's like okay, you can have Aaron. Okay, this okay, because he's like it's you or nothing and I want the people free.
Speaker 2:We look at Jesus same thing. Obviously, jesus is probably a different example, but we look at Peter, we look at all these different people in the Bible, and they Judas. There was not a plan B to just replace Judas when he made his crazy decision. And so you and I, we walk around going well, if I don't say yes, it's fine, god will send somebody else. No, he might not. He might not. So what if the people who God has a portion? He's already gone ahead of you, the people he's already set up to use your services, to benefit from your offer, from your products. What if they don't get the help they need because we were too concerned about how bright we were shining to give them an opportunity to get that help bright?
Speaker 1:we were shining to give them an opportunity to get that help. I'm just crying, I know, I know for a fact people are going to be listening to the sobbing because it's just, I think, for me it's feeling. We're always told to trust God, we're always told to depend on God, but something that I can't help but wonder, especially in just what you're saying, is how often do we ask ourselves if he can depend on us, if he can trust us.
Speaker 1:If he gives us the seed, can he fully know that I'm going to bring it to fruition, that I'm going to water it, that I am going to be a faithful steward and I'm going to put the work in that I ought to do, instead of thinking of how it makes me feel and I consistently something I tell myself and I just I just pray for a lot of the people my age of just consistently thinking about the fact of when I gave my life to Christ, I forfeited my comfort and so anything that's coming in that time of oh well, this doesn't feel good for me. Well, what if this? What if I get canceled online? Any of those things as I consistently sit with? You gave that up a long time ago. You can't make decisions based off that. You told him that you would pick up your cross, and so I personally take that so seriously and what that looks like to actually look at like can he depend on me? And I don't know if it's like from me growing up, because I never fully depended on anyone.
Speaker 1:It was always about what I was bringing to the table, but it's made me just feel that much more responsible in the kingdom of like, well, if he's calling me into action, if he's chose me to be a part of the kingdom, even that alone I just sob to think about me, like I'm allowed to be a part of this, that you love me so, so, so openly. I did not like I know I don't deserve it, and it's not about sitting here in a place of self deprecation, of saying you're bad or you're unworthy or any of those things, but I'm sitting just with the careful observation that I'm not. I've done so many things that could have disqualified me and yet he still loves me. And for him to choose me and to be a part of the kingdom, to even be able to feel the presence of the Holy spirit alone if that's all I got, like that is enough. And I personally just feel like I carry that so heavily with me of obviously there's a little bit of feeling of like I pray, I do this right and I pray. You know you put people in my path. You know like you and and just people I can look up to, that can put me on the right path so that I'm not deceived by a false gospel.
Speaker 1:But it's also how can I also be someone in your kingdom that isn't just passive, that I look at it as like you're actually a warrior, because, for me, I look at the, the story of David and Goliath, and I love to always see the parallels of where we see Jesus in scripture and I look at the shepherd boy, jesus, coming and slaying the big giant.
Speaker 1:But there's still a war right, and so we still a person for right, and so we still personally, for me, think well, we're still his warriors, we're still going to war, we know we have victory, but there's still a fight that we're still having to prompt into. And I think you know a lot of the work that you do is really it's warfare, if we're being honest, of, hey, can we actually call some good women up into places of influence, into platforms, into having wealth? Because I just sit and I wonder how much more different would the world be if those women had what we're letting these big corporations have that are corrupting the world? Well, how much better do we think it would be if we had a group of christian women who had influence, who loved jesus and had the wealth to do big things with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't even imagine what that would be like.
Speaker 2:It's like yes and yes to everything you just said. I do think that the Lord wants to trust us and trust is built and trust is earned, and love is not earned. In the kingdom of God, acceptance is not earned, those are free gifts. But trust and partnership, that's a process, and so the Lord does take us through seasons of challenge and seasons of testing so that we can see how we're doing, you know, and how surrendered we are and we can. It reveals something that he can heal and we can come out on the other side like stronger. But what you just said is so important because there was a study that was done. I don't remember how long ago, I think it was something in the last 20 years, but there was a governmental organization that wanted to bring some money into Africa, into a specific area of Africa, a very small village, and they thought they're going to give grants to the men, the elders of the community, and the men are going to help bring solutions, solutions and you know, props, problem solving in the community. So they gave the head of every household I don't remember how much it was, but like a small amount of money. And you know what those men spent it on toys, fun experiences, drugs. Do you think they got new clothes for their kids? No, they, they spent it on themselves. So the government was like, okay, this was a mistake, what are we going to do? So they go back and they thought let's try and let's put it in the hands of the mothers of the homes. And do you know what happened? When they put the money into the mothers of the homes, kids started getting enrolled in new schools, problems started getting solved, businesses started because women had ideas. They just needed funding.
Speaker 2:And Proverbs tells us this the Proverbs 31 woman is a savvy, wealthy woman, and this is the woman we are supposed to aspire to be. She understands real estate. She knows how to assess if a field is worth buying. She has people who can go and work that field. She has vision for what she's going to do with the money. She's putting her kids in good clothes. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I was out of town. I was overseas earlier last year, last fall, sorry, not earlier last fall and my husband had sent my eight-year-old to school three days in a row without brushing her hair and y'all better know I lit a fire under that. I'm like I don't know if I need to send my sister-in-law over but, like you, got to learn how to use a hairbrush, because when I'm not here she cannot go like that. And it's not like it's not down on anybody that doesn't brush their hair, but it's like there's a standard and I love your standard. There's a standard in my family of being presentable in public and we're not going out of this house with food stains all over our clothes because you have a clean shirt in your closet. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like we have a standard of excellence and my husband's, like you know, he's got four kids. He's like doing all the things and he's trying, but he had to learn. He had to learn how to do ponytails better. He had to learn, cause I'm like, if you're telling me that I'm free to go, you know do these other trips that I'm doing and things with the Lord. You got to make sure she shows up looking right, because that has an impact on girls, right?
Speaker 2:When we don't feel like we look good, it has an impact on us mentally, psychologically, and I'm like we're not doing this anymore and I felt so bad about that, I felt so guilty, because I'm like, shouldn't I be grateful? I have this amazing husband who, like, did you know? But I was sharing with one of my best friends. She goes oh no girl, I would have been livid. And I was like, okay, thank you. Thank you for making me feel better.
Speaker 2:You know that I'm not crazy, but the thing is that we haven't seen as the body of Christ. We don't know because we haven't seen what it looks like for powerful, godly surrendered women to have so much resource in their hand that they walk into a room and they're like wait, there's kids here in this school who don't have the school supplies? No, there's not, we're buying it. Wait, there's kids here who don't have enough food? No, not anymore. Here's a year's worth of food for this kid. There's do you know what I'm saying? Like it doesn't. It could be health care. It could be. Here's a year's worth of food for this kid. Do you know what I'm saying? It could be healthcare. It could be feminine products for kids in Africa. The average girl doesn't make it past eighth grade in school because they don't have sanitary products. So when they start menstruating they quit because who wants to do that? And so they miss school and they get behind. So there was an organization some years ago that literally was founded to supply menstrual products to these girls in villages in Africa. That's what their nonprofit does, so that the girls can finish getting an education.
Speaker 2:We, as women, we are so in tune because God positioned us this way. We're in tune with all the needs of the family and it can be overwhelming sometimes, but it is how God wired us to be. Men are in tune with moving forward, with going out and, like they just are, they have their own strengths that are amazing, that they need to bring to the family. But as women, we are very connected to everybody and so when money gets in our hands, you better believe problems start getting solved. And as the body of Christ, we just haven't seen it because we're still thinking that the ideal picture of a woman is behind the stove. You know, apologizing for being five minutes late at what, you know what I mean. Like we're so consumed with that image of Betty Crocker or June Cleaver I don't know who the or Beverly Goldberg, whoever would be like the person we think of today, and it's the wrong mentality. It's the wrong mentality.
Speaker 2:The picture we need to have as a woman is being fully alive and who God made you to be. And if that is domestic, making banana bread all day, praise God, because those women are making bread for me too, because I'm not good at that. You know what I mean. And if your destiny is to be out there leading the charge, praise God. And if your destiny is to be so financially savvy that your investments are just constantly up, praise God. Like it doesn't, there's no, there's no comparison. It's just being fully alive in who he made you to be.
Speaker 1:This is so I want to scream, because I'm even just thinking about something that popped in my head as you were just talking about your husband not brushing your daughter's hair was not only like, of course there's a standard, I think personally, especially within families, but something that just comes into my head, especially when it comes down to being blessed from a material standpoint, from what people can visually see, because, you know, people can feel our presence when they're in our, in our midst. But I just think of you know, we're called to be set apart and, of course, this is a spiritual fruit. It's inside our hearts, how we're postured, how we lead our day-to-day life. But I also think that so much of that is how can we, of course, glorify the Lord with the works of our hands, but also show and glorify him with, like God can give me all of this.
Speaker 1:Because, you know, I'm often and it's so funny in the business space, because I'm often like, how do I sell people on Christ? Like, how can I use the tactics I have with knowing, selling and influence? How can I use it in the gospel? And you know, one of the biggest things when we're looking from a business standpoint is well, I want to show desire on like why it's better over here, right, like I want to show you desire of what happens through transformation, because I think one of the biggest reasons and you know, I think that there's a lot of reasons why I think there's a lot of church hurt and just misconceptions, obviously deception and people have skills over their eyes, but when it comes down to not wanting to follow Christ, it's, I think, a big reason of it is because no one's been shown how beautiful and how fruitful and how abundant it truly is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Like when Jesus said I came, I came here to give you life and life more abundantly. He's not saying I came here to give you a bigger house and a better car he does. He's not saying I came here to give you a robust 401k so you can retire early. Like he is saying the way that I am with my family is so good that you love being a part of it.
Speaker 2:Now there is a lot of challenge there. Well, I think the challenge is like even in abundance, we can suffer. Even in abundance, we can go through trials, we can go through challenging experiences, we can experience loss. Like having favor on your life doesn't mean that you're immune or that you never have problems. It means that when you have those problems, you have a solution and when you have those problems, you have a safe space to commune with God and get a reprieve from the pressure of those problems.
Speaker 2:And what I think is so important is we have to remember that and this is probably going to sound a little controversial but in the Old Testament, god's chosen evangelistic strategy was through jealousy. That's how he did it. He was like there are all these other enemies around my people, but my people are going to be super blessed. You're going to live in a land flowing with milk and honey, and we think interesting, except that in that area, the agriculture of that area, the rain, was very inconsistent. So having like um good foliage that could produce honey, um, like all the ecosystem that goes into making honey, that's a whole thing in itself. And the milk is a representation of having so many livestock which was their like you know, monetary system. And so we think about the land flowing with milk and honey and we're not thinking about how God was, like everybody's going to look at you and want to know what you had.
Speaker 2:And there's these crazy stories in like first and second Kings, where we see this on display. One of one of my husband's absolute favorite stories is when the Ark of the covenant was stolen by I think it was the Philistines, and they put it into their camp with their statue, dagon, and it was like their idol. And then they show up the next morning and the idol is on the ground and its head had fallen off. And then there was like another in this time period, they moved the ark to somewhere else and rats invaded the whole camp like out of nowhere. And eventually the people are like I don't know what this is, but like take it back, take it back. And so the blessing of God came back onto his people because it was a blessing on his people, but it's actually a curse on everybody else.
Speaker 2:If you are not willing to walk God's way, the blessing of God is actually a curse to you, and this is what we miss so much. What the testing of our faith is this refining fire Peter talks about the proving of our faith is that we can learn to walk in a way that we can carry this heavy blessing lightly. Proverbs 10 says that the blessing of the Lord makes us rich and he adds no sorrow to it. That scripture is what, going back to the story, I told you guys at the beginning that scripture is what brought me into freedom, because I realized everything I had seen that I thought was quote blessing, that was only sorrow, and I'm like, oh, that wasn't the Lord.
Speaker 2:That's why I talk about Mammon so much, because Mammon is the master of money and he is a hard. I don't know if he's a he or she, he probably doesn't have a gender but like he's a hard task master and he's ruthlessly cruel and when he instructs you to become a workaholic, to build an altar of success at the sake of your family, when he requires the sacrifice of being a good mom or dad, like we can see the fruits of mammon in our life. And this is why Jesus goes he's a master. You have to choose today which master is going to be me or this one, right, because it's a big deal, and we could call it a principality, we could call it whatever verbiage you want to use. But we have to choose today which master is going to be me or this one, right, because it's a big deal. We could call it a principality, we could call it whatever verbiage you want to use. But we have to understand there's a whole system being driven by this.
Speaker 2:When I started learning that mammon's fruit is sorrow, stress, fear, anxiety around money, I was like I got it. I was already out from it, but I was like I got to talk about this because the blessing of the Lord is heavy, it comes with a cost, it has to be stewarded well and we can't do that unless we've gone through the process with God to stay on his way and like. There's a, there's just, there's a reason spiritually why God's like. It's not just so that you can be perfect. You know it's because there's a heaviness when he comes in your midst. So it's it's I. I see this actually in people who had the blessing. We're walking that way and then walked away from the Lord and you can see the corrosion on their life. The blessing is still with them, but everything is is sorrowful because they're now off the right path, right.
Speaker 2:So, I just think when we pay attention to it, the question stops becoming can I? Am I being greedy for wanting more? Am I Cause? Now we're?
Speaker 2:It's not even about wanting more. It's about partnership with the Holy spirit and bearing the yoke. This this last week I was reading that verse again Jesus saying I'm giving you a, um, an easy burden, a light yoke. And I was like you know, what's so interesting about this scripture is that it's not a no burden, like he's not saying I'm going to come with me and there's no burden and there's no yoke. It's like, no, there's a burden, but it's easier. With Jesus.
Speaker 2:There's a yoke and in the Bible what that's talking about is like a piece of wood around your neck as an ox Right, and so you can't really pull, you can't really go your own way. You got to go with your team that God has given you and it hurts if you try to lean against it. But he's like but mine is lighter than other people's, so we go okay, like in marriage and family and partnership, whatever, when we're having friction with our team. Then we got to go okay, am I leaning away from the yoke or is somebody else leaning away from the yoke because unity with the Holy Spirit this is such a side note, but somebody probably needs to hear this with the Holy Spirit is being centered in that yoke, to where it's not rubbing on your neck Right. So it's still work, it's still hard, but we're centered in what we're supposed to do with the Holy Spirit. So there's a freebie, totally unrelated, but you're like just giving it all away.
Speaker 1:I'm, I it's so crazy. Just you know how you're saying that, because it you know, I I think it's so much confirmation for me. I honestly, transparently, some it's weird because I I lately have been waking up and I'll either have a worship song or a verse in my head which I'm like this is the best way I want to wake up, like my lock screen's like how can I make God the first thing I think of in the day so nothing else can correct my thoughts. And this morning that was the verse that kept coming up in my head. I said I had a call before this and I kept saying it. It kept coming up and then you just came and said it and there's, there's just so much confirmation in that lightness and, like you said, it's not that there isn't a burden there.
Speaker 1:I think you know even just how I look at burdens. I think all of us have been given a burden and we're given grief to some point in the kingdom where he has assigned us to go and operate. So you know, even for anyone listening to this, I always ask my clients when they come to me, because most women are coming and they're like well, this is what I want to do, but I'm not quite sure how to package it or formulate it. I love looking at well, what is like your actual mission, like what's, what's the movement you're here to do? And so the first question I always ask is well, what breaks your heart?
Speaker 1:And it's the weirdest question, cause they're like just hired me, paid me all this money, and they're like why are you asking me this? And I'm like well, I want to know what grieves your heart, because that is where you will go, that is where you know you're assigned to go. And I'd just be really curious to hear your thoughts on this, because, wanting to stay in ministry and then being called over into the business world, do you feel like your desires changed? Because I think I hear a lot in the space that God will give you desires, and I've taught on this, so I want to know if I'm right. But God will give you desires in your heart for you to pursue them. Do you feel like that was accurate as you started to go into business? Did you open up to it more, or was there still resistance there?
Speaker 2:That is such a good question, I think, yes, I think, for me what was the problem in my life? And it was a I don't think it was a problem. I really do believe the Lord called me into ministry formally to teach me and train me and I just assumed that meant that was my lifelong call and it was like a 15-year call and so it was like I'm going to have you do this for this period of time because it's training for you, and then I'm going to move you and you take all that same stuff that you learned and do it over here. And so I want to be hesitant because, like I never want to talk badly about that season of my life is honestly like my favorite season. It was incredibly difficult but I really loved it.
Speaker 2:But the desire of my heart long time ago stopped being about anything specific because for me it's like I think that scripture we've kind of taken it and put it into too high of an importance. It's not actually meant to be theology, it's meant to be like a observation, and so in the context of an observation it makes total sense, right, because we get in hindsight, we can look and be like, oh my gosh, yeah, god gave me this desire. That was so cool when we make it theology by saying this is my desire, god, you have to give it to me. We've moved it into too high of an importance where now it's like you're not a good God if you don't give this to me or you're not faithful promise keeper, and so I think we kind of distort it when we give it too much importance. But that being said, in hindsight I really just wanted to help people and I wanted Jesus to be the center of what I was doing and I didn't know how that could look any other way. So I think for me the desire, yes, was still the same.
Speaker 2:But it is interesting because the first year after pastoring was wildly disorienting for me. I was like I don't even know I'd had all these prophetic words about going into business and into the business world. We already were in business, but going into the business world and I was just like I don't, I just wrestled. I just wrestled right and your identity's changing and I was about 36, 37 at the time, and so I was kind of like looking at my future. And when you get about 35, all of a sudden you can start seeing your life in 10 and 20 year increments. I was never able to do that before. Then. I'd be like you should have a five-year plan, but I'm like I mean I might be dead in five years, I don't know Like you, cause you just haven't lived long enough to like conceptualize a big chunk of time. But the older you get you do kind of be able to go, like you can probably look back and be like okay, yeah, five years, I get that, cause I've, I've can look at five-year increments of my life so far.
Speaker 2:And so for me I was like looking at the future and going I don't know what, what this next era of my life looks like when I get to my forties, like, and I'm like the only thing I want is to equip the body of Christ to understand who God is at such a deep level that it overflows onto the world around us. Like there's no reason why the gospel hasn't gone forward faster except our own inability to partner with the Lord. It is not because God is not willing or that God wants anybody to perish. That's that the Bible says God's not willing for anybody to perish. But we are too slow and too selfish and too obsessed with our comfort and to whatever, to really partner with him. Right, and so I'm like, if this is what I want to do with my life, like I want to help people that way.
Speaker 2:So what I found was because of my upbringing in circles where I was exposed to a lot of opportunity that a lot of people are not. Because of my ministry background, I'm, like, bilingual, so I can speak the language of business and I can speak the language of the spirit and, as it turns out, as I mentioned before, people at the top of business are often this unreached people group because they're yearning for something deeper in the spirit. But they go to their pastor and the pastor or their team leader, whatever at church and the team leader is like why don't you be a greeter? And they're going, okay, but my tithe is like for some people, like the whole annual budget of some people on this staff and they'll do it. They greet with a joyful heart, they you know, but they're like there's a disconnect there, because pastors who spent their whole life behind the pulpit are disconnected from what it's like to be out there running business in real life. In the Bible that was not the case. In the Bible, all the people in ministry were also working, because that's how they funded it right, and so American church has kind of taken that a little bit wonky. They funded it right, and so American church has kind of taken that a little bit wonky, and what it's done is it's left this vacuum for high earning people to not be understood, to not be like. They need somebody who can speak their language, who understands efficiency, like things like this. Some pastors can do this, so this is not a statement against all pastors. A lot of pastors can, but a lot of them can't.
Speaker 2:So what I've found is, in the last few years, super long answer to this question. But God has ended up putting me in places where people have a lot of success and they are desperate for understanding about who God is and they're stuck in disappointment. Or they have promises that God has given them and they have no idea what to do with these promises. And what they've been looking for is someone who has given them and they have no idea what to do with these promises. And what they've been looking for is someone who has lived it and experienced it, who can explain it to them so that they can get on board and for whatever reason, the desire of my heart to be a pastor has been fulfilled inside of business conversations Wildest thing to me. And when I started doing my one-on-one coaching business, I'm like, oh, so that's what I'm doing. I'm pastoring people, but instead of a church it's a business, and it's been really beautiful.
Speaker 2:And so I am at this point in my life now where I wish years ago I would have trusted the Lord more, that he knows who I am and that my calling fits me. Because I don't. It's not that I would have said to you, it doesn't like. You know, in my head I logically would have said I know that's not true, but in my spirit I wasn't, I didn't, I hadn't lived it. So I wasn't fully able to trust because I hadn't experienced it. And now that I have experienced it, I'm just like absolutely audacious in everything that I'm pursuing right now, because I'm like if I had to give up the thing I wanted to do, if I had to, you know, like if all of this and this is where you put me, lord then let's frigging, change the world and let's start today, you know, and let's not wait anymore. And so it's actually lit this fire in my heart. So long answer to that. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Do I have time to ask you like one more question? Yeah, go for it, I think, because what I like, I'll be so transparent. I think the biggest thing that I often struggle with and a lot of the women that I'm talking to because I came a lot from the new age space where it was manifestation go get what you want. And it really came from a place of, well, what do I want, what's on my vision board, and it and it was very material and so, moving into now, putting Christ at the center there was, there's definitely been like learning how to walk again, of how do we balance ambition, because I've always, like, left home at 16, had two, three jobs at all times, was constantly trying to get myself to that life that I always felt like was in front of me, and my question always consistently to myself and I have to remind my clients of this because I do hold high standards, I do love structure, I do love stewardship is where do we balance the kingdom ambition?
Speaker 1:That is good, that is sweet, that is rooted in gratitude, and when do you feel like it starts to teeter off into maybe more flesh-like desires, more self, self-glorification, and so I'd be curious what your thoughts are on that, because I think that's the biggest wrestle that many of us are kind of sitting with I think the answer to that question is in another question, which is who is sitting on the throne of your heart?
Speaker 2:and so if it's Jesus, then our ambition is tied to and he can get up and down right, like he's not always sitting on it. I want to be really clear like in heaven he's seated, he's done, but in our heart feels a little bit like like a musical chair sometimes, you know, like we scoot over and we take over and we didn't realize it. But if he is seated in the throne of our heart, then everything of our ambition is typically flowing from the place of aligned purpose and radically pursuing his desire as if it is our own. When we are sitting on the throne of our heart, we are radically pursuing our own desire and we're asking God are you okay with this? So I think if you think about it like that, it'll start to kind of make sense internally as you kind of check yourself. I think with a lot of the new age stuff, what it's taught is to use your faith. You said it so perfectly Use your faith to get something that you want which is in the realm of control, but in the kingdom we use our faith to bring forward something that God wants, and then it's surrender, because we're trusting that what God wants for us is the best thing for us. So is it okay to have a vision board with ideas? Yeah, it's okay. It's what happens internally in your faith to that.
Speaker 2:So, for me, I don't want to attach myself to anything that I'm not convinced the Lord has given me. So I do this exercise once or twice a year, sometimes more than that, depending on just how I'm doing, because we all go through seasons, right, where everything in my life goes back on the table. So instead of asking God, can I have this, can I have this, Can I just give it all? And I'm like I don't know if I should be doing Instagram this way, if I should be doing my. You know, everything goes on the table family, faith, possessions, all of it, business and then I go, you give it back to me. So if there's anything that's that I'm doing, I've already given it to you and if you want me to keep it, I'll keep it. My husband and I were having this conversation the other day because, for whatever reason probably the vow of poverty we've just never been attached to things Like probably the reason that made me make that vow, right?
Speaker 1:Like we've just never.
Speaker 2:We, I and I and I grew up with a lot of things and so it was normal to me. So I, they kind of lose their, their intrigue. To be honest with you, like, at some point you're like a purse is just a purse, like it's just a bag and it carries my phone, like you know what I mean. I did get into the micro bag trend. Recently I bought my first micro bag. It's like a doll purse and I'm actually like obsessed with this bag. So, I don't know, catch me in a month or two. Yeah, no, I'm not giving that. No, yeah, actually, the Lord gave me that one, so that was great. But, um, but I, I don't have an attachment to things. I'm like, if I'm hurting financially, what's the first to go? I can have a different car, take my car. If I'm hurting financially, do I need a different house? Sure, do I need to let go. And I and I it is so my husband are talking about this because we've met some people recently, a couple of different people in different spheres that are like really struggling financially and there's easy solutions in their hand that they like cannot do. Like get a better cell phone plan, get you know, or maybe you like don't have unlimited data or whatever, like all these little tweaks you can do, that can add up to a couple hundred bucks, which for a lot of people that's huge money every month. And we were talking about it and I was like it's so strange to me that that doesn't occur to people. But at the heart of it, I think it's because we have no attachment to our things and I think that's because for 20 something years we've been doing this exercise of all of this is yours, lord. If you don't want me to have it, tell me where you want me to. Where we live is because God told us to live here. This part of town is pretty boring and, uh, there are not really a lot of restaurants. You know like it would be more fun to be other places, but God was like this is where I want you. So when you live like that, you kind of stop wondering and then the faith becomes a little bit more pure because it's like okay, god, you're on the throne and I'm executing your agenda, and I did want to say this. I forgot to say this earlier, but I think this is something that your audience needs to hear.
Speaker 2:I love this analogy that in the kingdom of God there are like paupers, there are citizens, there are princes and there's knights, knights and then princes we can put it in female terms, whatever but in the ecosystem of God, like in the kingdom of God, there are people who are just grifters and they're just looking for handouts and they will never give anything meaningful to society, and God loves them and they're welcome in the kingdom, but they have no ability to. You know, they're the ones laying by the pool year after year just hoping it'll stir and they might end up falling in and get. You know what I mean. Like there are people like that. And then there are people who are, well, the citizens kind of make sense too. So we'll just go to the Knights for the sake of time.
Speaker 2:There are Knights who are like my life's calling is to do stuff for the Lord. I've pledged my allegiance to him, I do everything he asks me to do and they are in the palace. They get to be in the inner sanctum of the rooms in the palace. They are close to the king, they know his heart, they know the things he wants to do, but at the end of the day they go out and do stuff for God, and then they go home and they go to bed. And then there are sons or daughters who live in the king's house and they are also doing things from the Lord, from the king, as jobs. But it is actually like, because the family business has become their business too, they have their father's heart. They get to see him when he's in his pajamas on Christmas morning, right Like there's no formality there anymore. But a son or a prince or princess understands, in certain settings there's going to be formality, right, like Prince William and his and Kate Middleton. Like they understand in public they're going to be really respectful to their dad, to the King, but in private, do you think they're like? I mean, maybe they are, I don't know. But like you know, there's a lot more familiarity with them in private.
Speaker 2:And I think, as as believers, we need to understand that many of us are trying to live as knights where we want assignments from God, we want to go out and do exploits for God, but we don't really feel comfortable in those intimate spaces. He's not really family. He's like our Lord, our Savior. We owe things to him because we're in gratitude, but he's not really family. And then the difference is the sons and daughters. They still go out and do exploits. They still go out and further the mission. They advance the kingdom, they broaden it, they make deals, they do the work of the business, but they also have the intimacy. They also have the closeness. Because they're doing it because it's an extension of who they are. The knights are doing it because it's an extension of who they serve. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:I love that, because what comes to my mind is knights do it from underneath the lordship, but the princes and the princesses for lack of better terms do it from beside him.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so like there's that closeness that comes with it, and he says that we are seated in heavenly places, we are beside him at the throne. So I just think that's so important, because what it brings to me is how can we make intimacy that much more important than our assignment? And then everything else kind of figures itself out it does.
Speaker 2:Because now I'm not asking Lord, is it okay with you if I buy this car? I'm looking at the whole picture of what we're doing together, right, I'm looking at the whole thing we're building together, what my father is building and how I play a part in that. And it makes the decision easier because I can see where it lines up and doesn't line up Right. It makes the decision of what I offer easier. Like I just offered, I just opened yesterday a new coaching community. It's a low ticket, high value community.
Speaker 2:I've been sitting on this for a year. The Lord's been telling me to do this and I've just been like I don't know about this, I don't know about this. You know, give me another confirmation, right, like over and over and over again. And finally the Lord was like are you with me or are you not with me? And I'm like I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm going to do it, you know. And the reason is because I was like thinking about how it fits in the sphere of what I'm building and just for whatever reason, kind of lost myself that what I'm building is not about what I'm building, right, I kind of lost myself that what I'm building is not about what I'm building right.
Speaker 2:It's about this mandate, this mission that God's put on my life to help people and, for whatever reason, he wants an opportunity for people as wide you know, widely accessible as possible for people to come in and get this kind of information. And and it's it was and I'm saying that because it's like this is such a good exercise, because, no matter what point of your faith journey you get to, we still have to revisit these moments. We still have to go God. I, in my flesh, was kind of like I'm a, I'm a high ticket one-on-one coach. So it just felt weird. You know, I'm like what do I do about that? Like I don't know, and it's going to be amazing what we do. Care of it. I'm like, yes, sir, and he will, and I know he will, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I love that you brought that up, because what I think I'm really recognizing too is like if you have success, business, money, whatever, as an idol in your heart, you won't be willing to say to him yeah that's what I experienced, because even when it came down to tithing my 10%, I remember there was this woman like prophetically spoke over me.
Speaker 1:She's like I just see your face in a closed door. She's like you're blocking your blessings or there's you know, a door that you can't get to. I'm just hearing surrender, surrender, and I feel like there's someone you need to give up. And I sat with him in prayer for a good day and I was like I've like moved to Florida from Canada, like I don't have many friends left.
Speaker 1:I don't really like coming to Christ and moving, like I I pretty much wiped the roster and I was really sitting in Psalms one day and you know I came across um submit to the Lord in all your ways and and I don't remember a hundred percent, but you know he'll give you that understanding and it's not about what we understand. And so I kind of really started thinking about that and I was like where am I not submitting, where am I not surrendered? And you see a couple verses down.
Speaker 1:verse nine talks about tithing and I sat and I froze and I felt it in my spirit and he said, ah there it is, and from that moment forward I was like, because I was unwilling to submit, I finally came to a place where I was like I will let it, it go, like I'm so done with being in bondage to money.
Speaker 1:Have it like I actually don't care anymore If you take all of it away, cause I'm so, so exhausted from being in that bondage and I've tithed my 10% every single month since and, interestingly enough, the debt that I carried from my first four years of entrepreneurship that I still have now. I've paid off two credit cards. Like wow, to a coincidence I'm gonna have to say no. So I just love that you brought up just like that full submission and that full surrender of just like I'm letting it go and I'm willing to be able to do that. So you're just like full of so many nuggets. I'm just so grateful for you on here. I'm gonna give you like one last opportunity. If there's anything that's like burning on your heart, if there's like one thing that you just want my audience to know, anything on the top of your head as we close out here.
Speaker 2:I think if this conversation is really resonating with people, if you're like I don't want to say goodbye, like I love this, you need to get my book. There's two books. I call them the mandate sisters. They're sort of like they go together but they're two totally separate books, but the expansion mandate and the money mandate, and so the expansion mandate is about the four battles that every Christian has to win to be able to occupy the promise God has given them. So that is the battle for the promise, which is actually like the battle to believe that God has something for you. And then the battle to the promise, which is what we commonly refer to as our wilderness seasons. The battle at the promise when we are got our foot at the line but we're not across it yet. And then the battle in the promise because spoiler alert it doesn't stop once you actually get there and um and so that book is so helpful.
Speaker 2:If you're resonating with like the surrender and just like I need to, I need to like align, that's the book for you. Both of these are available on Amazon. And then the other one is the money mandate, which is my newer book. It came out this year and if you're if the money stuff is resonating with you, I just cannot recommend that book enough and I I feel you know like you kind of feel weird about that, but honestly these are books that God has given to me as tools for people, so I feel no shame being like literally go buy this book.
Speaker 1:I'm going to link them in the description.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because, like, they are changing people's lives, like literally every single week I get messages from people who are like I never understood this. I'm getting free, I'm breaking, like, and it's so incredible what God is doing, so I just have so much excitement to share it with people because of that. But the money mandate really gets into, like, what does the Bible say about your money? What are you supposed to do with it? How do you get free from the weapons that the enemy uses against our wallet? So much of the stuff that you've shared is in the book and I just think if you're like like tracking with that and you're loving that, that is a great place to go.
Speaker 2:Next, the expansion made it as a super quick read. The money mandate is a deep dive, but if you'll read both of those, actually I can pretty much guarantee you your life will never be the same, because it's all from the stuff in the Bible. It's not me writing, it's like the Bible, right, but when you understand it in this way, so many things unlock. So if you're listening and you're like, I feel this block exactly. I thought there was such. The picture. The testimony you just shared is so beautiful because that's how it is for so many of us and we don't know how to get through the block, and I created these books to help people do that. Obviously, go to the holy spirit first, because he's better at it than anybody else, but you might like that as a resource for you.
Speaker 1:So oh, this was so good. I'm gonna listen to this over and over like this turns so much of my spirit, like I feel so blessed just for being able to like pick your brain, learn from you. So we definitely have to do a part two or something, and definitely you guys like go buy her. But I'm literally about to go buy both your books I read. I have to say, like I have never heard somebody talk about it the way that you do, which is why I just have so much admiration towards you. And I did at one point, like months ago I remember, downloading.
Speaker 1:I think you had like free chapters or something like you could get the link and I remember reading it and within like two and I remember reading it and within like two minutes I was reading out loud to everybody in the room. I was, like you have to hear like, what, like is mind blowing. So absolutely, you guys, if you guys are listening to this, go and get her books. I will link it in the description below. And where can they find you? Because, okay, awesome.
Speaker 2:Come, come on the journey. That's what I always tell people. Instagram at Rachel Wartman, then on Tik TOK at the Rachel Wartman. Those are my two primaries I'm. I'm on Facebook but I don't like it, so I'm not consistent there and that's really it. And then you can find. You know, all my stuff is linked under my profiles on both of those. So probably the best place is either Instagram or Tik TOK at Rachel Wartman or at the Rachel Orban.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I'll link it all below. I appreciate you so, so much. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, oh, thank you for having me. This is such a fun conversation.
Speaker 1:Have to have more.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Awesome, thank you Awesome.