Lead With Care And Accountability

We reflect with Aníbal Fuentes on building a meaningful career through purpose, lateral growth, and the kind of leadership that earns trust over time. We dig into why listening is a force multiplier and why real care includes accountability and hard feedback. 

• Choosing horizontal moves early to broaden skills and discover passions 
• Building a career inside one company by changing “problem states” instead of chasing titles 
• Approaching an international assignment with immersion rather than replication 
• Developing active listening to reduce blind spots and speed up impact 
• Defining servant leadership as clarity on people’s goals plus support against real friction 
• Treating care as directness, standards, and protection of the whole team 
• Learning to network authentically as an introvert and speak up with intent 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Nathan 0:25

Vice President of Customer Strategy and Planning at Haleon US. With incredible leadership journey spanning companies like Haleon, Danone, and Reckitt, Annibal brings a unique blend of commercial strategy expertise, servant leadership, and global experience, including leading teams across Western Europe. In this conversation, we dig into career growth, leadership development, active listening, and what it really means to lead with both empathy and accountability. If you're early in your leadership journey or looking to become a stronger leader, this episode you won't want to miss. With me today, super excited to have Annabelle Funtis on the podcast of Life and Leadership Lessons. Really excited to have you. So thank you, number one, for joining me and talking about life and leadership lessons that you've learned. So excited to have you.

Anibal 1:17

Oh thank you, Nathan. I mean, uh I remember a time when I was able to call you Nate the Great, but I guess we'll we'll stick with Nathan for the call today. Um yeah, no, I really appreciate the opportunity to kind of share some thoughts. It's always nice to make some time to think about these things. Uh, usually when you're in the grind day to day, there's always a space to reflect. Uh, so I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do that today.

Nathan 1:42

Absolutely. So why don't we start out by just an introduction from you about yourself and some of your journey and kind of what's led you to where you are today in your current role.

From Mission Work To First Offer

Anibal 1:55

Okay. Uh yeah. So again, my name is Aníbal Fuentes. I am a husband and a father of four. I have a number of passions. My career is definitely one of them. I currently act as the vice president of customer strategy and planning for Haleon US. Um, we can talk a little bit about Haleon if we want on a double click. Uh, but previous to that, I spent five years at a maybe a better known company, uh, Danone North America, uh, where I was the VP of commercial strategy over yogurt and convenient nutrition. And then prior to that, I spent, gosh, uh almost 17 years uh at Reckitt um through its uh various iterations while I was there. Um so yeah, those would be kind of like the the three big bucket pieces of my career. I spent a few years at Kraft Foods in their grad program, but the most meaningful beginning of my career was probably when I started my tenure at Wreck It.

Nathan 2:56

Awesome. I know we got to spend quite a lot of time together at Reckitt. Um I got to the pleasure and and enjoyment truly of working on your team. Um, that was a lot of fun for me. Um, but as you talk about Wreck It kind of being that first foray, what was that like for you, just kind of getting into the industry, getting into this space of that is Reckitt and being there for so long?

Anibal 3:20

I graduated uh school when I was like 20, and I was at Kraft uh for about three years while I was at school and after I graduated. Um I opted to take about two years off um to do some mission work. I was in Purlington, Mississippi after uh some of the bigger hurricanes that hit down there and then Costa Rica and a little bit of uh work in Philadelphia. All this to say I went through kind of a reset and I didn't know what I was going to do. And I was debating on whether or not I wanted to stay in New Jersey or relocate to another state. And my mother, uh Nathan, who you know, is now a retired chemist, but at the time she was a very active chemist working on stain removal at a company uh called Wreck It Bin Keiser at the time. And she basically alluded to the fact that, hey, they're starting a new function at the company and they're not really sure what it's gonna look like. They're calling in trade strategy, and one of the folks that I work with mentioned that they're looking for someone to come in at an entry-level position, uh trade marketing analyst position. I uh I try to be a respectful son. So uh I told her that I would entertain the interview. I uh I remember that I I wore the suit that I had and I packed up a Smurf Blue 1996 Thunderbird with all of my stuff because I was convinced that I would just hit the road after. And I drove to Parsippany and I interviewed with I think three people back to back. You know, I thought the interview went okay. Um, so I got in the car, I went to a local fast food place, I got a bite to eat, and I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna start making my way south. I'm just gonna go south. And about 15 minutes into the drive, the head of trade marketing at the time called me directly to extend me the offer. So then I was like, okay, I guess I'm staying in New Jersey. And obviously, 17 years later, it was uh quite a career. I I feel like it was a self-curated MBA program of sorts. I was really uh personally connected to the portfolio. I really liked the fact that consumer health was something that had a meaningful impact. And it was it helped me tap into the elements of my career that I later found were important when it comes to purpose, um overlapping with the let's call it commercial aspect of things. Um, but yeah, no, so I I got to do uh some trade marketing roles, some sales roles, uh, really got to build at the time uh the dollar class to trade space with a friend of mine who's now also doing great things. And you know, at that time, that class of trade was very you know embryonic at best and got to kind of like operate with permission and really build some things. And then I got into more strategic roles uh where I was working on the global Walmart business back when that function was maybe a little bit more uh pronounced and deliberate at Walmart. Not sure how they're treating that uh these days. And I also got a chance to work out of Western Europe. I was in Amsterdam for about two years where I was doing regional innovation strategy planning and kind of taking the fact that there were certain consumer behaviors uh that were common across uh Western Europe and North America, predominantly in the household cleaning space. It's a little bit harder to kind of think about things that way when you get into consumer health, but in the household cleaning space, uh there were definitely some synergies. So for me, the benefit was uh after being exposed to so much of the US landscape from a go-to-market perspective, I got the chance to kind of see how markets like Germany, UK, France, Italy, even a little bit of Russia when it was okay to do it, uh did some project work out there. So that was that was really fun. And I'll tell you, outside of the work itself, which was extremely satisfying, uh, the ability to coexist in the number of cultures uh that I got access to, I think had a massive uh impact on me as a person in my formation. So I will say that uh 17 years really well spent, I got to work with a lot of amazing people, yourself included, and I got to learn so much about myself and the world. And I know that sometimes people have started to flag that careers should be curated and that you should consider kind of moving from one company to another uh on maybe a shorter timeline. One, I I feel like uh Wreck It evolved into many different iterations of itself while I was there. And and while maybe I didn't necessarily change companies, I definitely changed problem states or puzzles along the way. And as long as that was true and I felt like I was growing and developing, I was never even thinking about the role that maybe another organization would have. So, you know, I think the last project that I had before I left there was standing up a very entrepreneurial arm for the business, where we were thinking about how do we bring products from one market into another. So a global expansion role in regards to portfolio. And again, it was just another opportunity to broaden my horizons on some of the more like modern uh social platform, digital, export businesses that maybe fly under the radar a little bit when you think about scale CPG. That's kind of my record tenure and a semi-succinct summary.

Nathan 9:16

Well,

Lateral Moves That Build Real Skill

Nathan 9:17

it's very good. I think there's a couple things in there that I want to dive into. Um, if you think about those who may be listening to this specific episode from a podcast perspective, and I know we have some college age students who listen as well. And I think there's some important things to learn through that, right? I think you mentioned one of those being a lot of times right now, what we're hearing is you need to jump companies to learn XYZ or to get these promotions or things that you need, but that's not always necessary. And I think there's a lot of value, as you mentioned, kind of learning different things within. And I know one of the challenges that I used to have when I was younger and thinking about my career was when are those times to flex horizontal versus a vertical, right? Because I think a lot of us tend to want to go after the vertical promotions all the time. But are those the right things? And I actually talked about this in my book that I think was a hindrance on my career that I didn't do was taking the opportunity to slide over into sales earlier in my career than what I did. Um, and not only just not doing that until recently, and I should have looking back, made that adjustment. But talk about those experiences of the horizontal versus the vertical and what those meant to you, given that you had such a long time at Reckitt to try out different areas.

Anibal 10:40

Yeah, I mean, I I think for me, when you're young, and I'm I'm I'm pausing because it's been a long time since I was in that headspace. Let's just say there's more salt than pepper these days. But when you're young, to your point, you feel like there's like this hourglass and that um laterals are a quote unquote waste of time. And you're trying to be CEO in like five years or you know, some of these uh very aggressive uh career path timelines. And what I'll tell you is one, I saw it when I was young from an observation perspective of seeing people that I thought were really talented hit walls because of their choices to kind of think about vertical versus horizontal. Uh and and then I think what it's what's hard to process when you're when you're at that point in your career is the the the salary and the titles are always going to be there in front of you. Um the opportunity to like really broaden the depth of your toolbox, okay, one can always redefine their career, but in in in more traditional terms, is most available to you at that early part of your career. And the more that you can try uh before you fully commit to a lane, one, it'll make you that much more dangerous as you elevate an organization. And two, I've actually had a number of really positive experiences with colleagues of mine that started in one path, finance, supply, were committed to doing things in this lateral mindset, and then realized that their passion was actually somewhere else and they didn't even know it. So I do think that you know, you're gonna hear a lot of people tell you there's so much value in learning new things and do it early in your career, and all of that is true. And I I agree with all of that, but I think there's an additional layer of value to you where there could be a blind spot about where your passions actually lie that you've never even truly considered, that you could almost accidentally find yourself in, and it could change your life, it could change the trajectory of your career. So uh it'll make you a better professional by by broadening your horizons early, but you may not realize what you really want to be if you never take the chance to experience a few different things early in the process.

Nathan 13:02

Absolutely, 100% agree. And that's one of the ways I ended up in category management, is I stumbled into it, completely stumbled into it. And it was something that I spent a number of years, probably almost 20 years, in insights and category management, because that was just a space that I loved that I literally fell into. And I think that's a great point for those who are a little bit younger to try some of those other areas because you just don't know what you may end up really enjoying and liking.

Moving Abroad With An Immersion Mindset

Nathan 13:29

The other aspect that I wanted to dive in on from a record perspective is you mentioned going overseas. And I actually remember because I we were both working at the company during this time frame. I remember you moving over and then I remember you coming back. Um, talk about that from not only a leadership, but from a life perspective. What are some of the things that that really provided you? You you've hit on a little bit, but I want to dive a little bit deeper as to what that time meant to you and your family and yourself as far as development for not only, like I said, professional, but even personal.

Anibal 14:07

Yeah. Uh I'll tell you, everyone has their own path and they have to kind of consider the implications of going abroad. There's a lot of factors that are involved, especially when you have a family. Um, I was lucky enough to be in a position where I could look at the opportunity and frame it in a way where I was not gonna go to Europe and try to rebuild my life in the US. And it's an important ingoing mindset position because I think sometimes people who go abroad and maybe struggle in regards to the acclamation is because they're they're trying to completely replicate and recreate everything about what gave them comfort when they've been at home. I I started that journey very deliberately, and this was something that I discussed with my family holistically. It's like we're not going to Amsterdam to try to recreate New Jersey, we're going to Amsterdam to try to understand why people love living there. And I think that context is really important, and I think it was one of these things where there are some infrastructure benefits too. Uh, if you're an English-speaking uh person and you want to experience Europe, I would argue Amsterdam might be the best city to do it. Uh, despite the fact that obviously Dutch is their primary language. In a lot of cases, I found um the culture even more agreeable than even the United Kingdom or the UK, which wouldn't be intuitive, but was my experience. So that was first and foremost the big thing that I wanted to make sure that we went into this with an immersion mindset, not a let's replicate what we're comfortable with mindset. Uh, and that set the tone from the beginning. We didn't relocate our car. We didn't have a car. There were six of us. We all, you know, we had five bicycles, and my daughter, who was super young at the time, just had a seat that sat on top of one of the bicycles. And it was just like six Puerto Ricans just bopping around in in Western Europe on their bicycles because we really wanted to kind of uh lean into that. And the more you lean into it, the more uh I think you get out of it. Uh, and there were so many things about like that culture that made me healthier, you know, whether it was diet, whether it was just, you know, uh being active. There was a lot that a Northeast American would resonate with. The Dutch can be pretty direct. So I kind of like that coming from the New York, New Jersey area. So it was almost like, no, this actually vibes and it clicks. And I will say, you know, like I've as a professional, I've relocated, gosh, five or six times. And I still get are you okay text messages from people in the Netherlands? That culture, like once you kind of break through and build mutual trust, uh, is an extremely like loyal, uh, loyal culture. Uh, and they really look out for each other. And it was nice because I got to experience that. My children got to see something that was different at a young and formative time in their life. And then for me, I got the exponential benefit of getting to almost experience that fivefold, given that the work I was doing at the time had me kind of experience microcultures across Western Europe uh along the way. But the first and foremost piece I would say is you got to start that experience with the right mindset. And to be frank, uh going abroad isn't about making more money, it's really about prospecting new experiences that you can then cash in down the road. Um, because you know, when you work in the biggest market in the world, you get compensated as such. Uh, it's just the reality of things. Um, so I think for me it was being okay with, you know, taking a lateral, moving my family out there, not knowing exactly when the company was going to move us back. There's a you just have to kind of accept the fact that the opportunity is worth so much more than what's on paper, and then just leaning into that immersion mindset.

Nathan 18:18

Those are great lessons, I think, for people to think about, especially as you move abroad, to have that mindset of don't recreate what you're what you have in the US. Like don't go in with that kind of thought of I'm gonna have everything that I have here, let me learn and what that environment is really like. So I I love that aspect. Now,

Active Listening That Changes Leadership

Nathan 18:39

as you come back, what do you feel like that experience delivered for you from a career perspective as you made your way back to the US?

Anibal 18:47

So up until that point, I was kind of on an accelerated career trajectory. You know, it was maybe a year-ish per role for you know the first seven to ten roles that I had. And that was great. And again, a record gave me the opportunity to try a lot of different things and learn a lot really fast. I would say it was really good for me as an individual contributor because it gave me a wide array of tools. But when I was coming back from Amsterdam to the US, I was being given a business that had some opportunities. My relocation was actually accelerated because the businesses that I ended up working on at that time needed a loving hand. And I would say, like, one of the biggest things that I didn't even think I was gonna take back with me was as I was working in all of those different microcultures across Western Europe, the muscle that I started to find in myself as an individual that was also kind of like still very authentically me was this uh listening, like active listening with uh a seek to understand foundation. Like really, really, really listening, not just listening so that I can find where I can tell you what you should do, but like really, really listening uh to understand everything about the perspective of the person on the other side of the table. I had to do it to learn on an accelerated rate how things worked in these different countries. But when I came back to this business that I was familiar with, I was familiar with the numbers, I was familiar with the brands, but I wasn't familiar with my team, not with that depth. And a lot of them uh had been working on this business for some time and had a lot to offer about what they were doing and how they were doing it. Uh, and I think that if I hadn't taken what I took out of my experience overseas and applied it in that way as I was making that transition back to the US, gosh, it would have really slowed down how long it would have taken for us to have a positive impact on the business. And to be frank, it's one of these things where uh I really started to understand, and this is maybe before it was trendy, the value of like servant leadership and focusing on empathy. Uh, because the last thing that you want is to have someone come from the outside. So even though I was part of the company, I was coming from a different market, returning back to the US, and just have someone come in and tell you what you should be doing. Um, and the trust that I was able to build, I think led to the transparency that we needed about the business. And because I was trying to understand what it was that they were trying to accomplish, we could work together on finding new ways to deliver against that ambition and until we found the way that had the most cutthrough. So it's a weird thing to have think to think about now. Actually, I hadn't thought about it until you and I started talking that you would carry from an experience like that overseas when you're coming back home, if that makes sense.

Nathan 21:56

Absolutely. And I think that there are a lot of leaders who do. Kind of what you hinted at. They listen to try to get in their next point or get you to do what they want you to do, versus truly listening to see what that person can offer and how you can help them develop. And that is a skill that as a leader, you have to learn and understand that really it's all about active listening and making sure that you're hearing what that person needs and what their what their value is to the organization and your team.

Anibal 22:29

And the thing is, again, for the college students or the folks that are starting their career, um the longer you wait to find the authentic way of doing that for yourself, the harder it will be. And if it's not something that you find your own way of doing, the higher up you get in an organization and the further away you get from where the rubber is actually on the road, without creating that psychological safety, without creating that trust, you're just gonna be uh overwhelmed with blind spots. And no matter how smart you are, or no matter how good of an individual contributor you were, you're gonna find yourself really struggling to make the impact that you want on the timeline that you want.

Care Means Candor And Accountability

Nathan 23:14

Absolutely. And that's actually in the last episode of this podcast, we were just talking about that. I was talking about that with my last guest. And you you just mentioned something there that came up with him, right? And the servant leadership aspect, but the trust and how do you build the trust? And one of the things that him and I were just talking about recently was care and competence help drive trust, right? You have to care for your people, listen to them, understand what they need, but you also need to have that competence yourself to help them through the challenges that they're going through. You can't just be a figurehead.

Anibal 23:51

Yeah, and I will tell you, like, I I love the the balance and the alliteration, right, between the care and competence. Just, and this is just from my personal point of view, I think um a superficial understanding of what care means is as dangerous as not having it at all. Care doesn't mean that you don't hold people accountable. Care doesn't mean um that you can't have hard conversations. Uh, to me, again, and if you're invested in operating this way from the beginning, it's a lot easier to do when you've been this way from the beginning. It's about having the relationship to really tell someone what you see from the outside that could have a hindrance on who they want to be as a professional. One, and then care for me is not just about a one-on-one thing. Like I care for my team, you know, I care for my organization. And just to keep it a little bit more intimate, when I say I care for my team, I think sometimes that incomplete understanding of what care means in this context means that you uh you give more rope to the wrong people and you don't realize the detriment and the negative impact that you have on the right people that are all having to deal with your inability to have that hard conversation, right? So to me, it's it's as caring to be direct about where we have to improve together as it is for me to say that when I think about care, I'm thinking about my my whole team as much as I am any one individual.

Nathan 25:38

Absolutely. And that's one of the things that I've talked with others as well from this care aspect of people, if you're not willing to give challenging feedback to help them grow, that is a sign of somebody who doesn't truly care, right? If you care about that person, you're going to help them grow, whether that is through the positive or even the constructive aspects of helping them. Because otherwise, if you didn't care, you're just like, yeah, you're doing good. Great, keep going. That's not helping them grow, and that's not helping them get to where they want to be. I love

Joining Danone And Finding The Words

Nathan 26:16

that conversation. Let's fast forward a little bit and get into your time with Danone, right? So you mentioned going into Danone, you've taken a lot of experience with you out of Recit and really, from a leadership perspective, probably saw some things you liked, saw some things you didn't want to necessarily emulate as you move into your new role. What did that look like as that transition for you after coming away from a company for so long and now going into a new place? How did you kind of adjust and adapt?

Anibal 26:46

Yeah, um, towards the end of my record career, I also started to maybe self-identify with a mindset that wasn't necessarily the trying to think of the right language, but usually when you think about leaders in sales and in trade strategy, there's like a bolster and a fervor and a fire and you know, a speed that's associated with kind of like stereotypical leader. I I usually use the analogy of lions and foxes. And what I found was that there were a lot of lions and not a lot of foxes. And as I kind of start to curate my own style, I'm like, you know, I think I might be a fox. Um, and and this whole lion energy might not be my thing. It's not a bad thing, it's just not me. So as I was kind of transitioning from one organization to the other, I didn't want to lose the bias for action, the the craving of clarity in regards to the job to be done. And and to be honest, the financial acumen that I associate with my time at Wreck It being one where you weren't learning how to operate within a function, you were learning how to run a business, uh, which is different. So I wanted to kind of hold on to all of those things. Um, what I loved about the opportunity going into Danone was I think there was an appetite to kind of bring some of that energy uh to the space that I was coming on board to. But you know, we're talking about a massive organization that is not just talking about purpose, it's living it, certified B Corp. I can tell you just from my experience there, everything that you see, like on the websites and on the LinkedIn, it is authentically the way that that organization is wired from end to end. They are truly, truly, truly people-centric. And when they talk about people centricity, they're talking about it just as much through the lens of their consumer as they are their employees. And they live it in a way that I had not experienced uh in my time at Wreck. In regards to what I got out of that, I got out of that uh an opportunity to work with a new set of leaders that helped me develop muscles that I don't think I would have easily had access to developing if I would have stayed, to be frank. Language like servant leadership actually comes from my time at Danone. I didn't have the words while I was at Wreck It. When I was at Danone, they helped me uh put the words to the style that I was trying to build. And it was because that style was appreciated, um, it was encouraged, uh, and I was given an amount of autonomy and freedom within a framework to drive the business that I was kind of blown away by, especially coming in as an external hire. And, you know, for me, just kind of coming back to finding new opportunities after learning a new business. So the portfolio, I record, is far from perishable. So when you start talking about yogurt, it's it's a completely different space when you think about some of the implications that come with uh working with perishable goods and dairy space. And then on top of that, the opportunity to have a company like that uh explore entering a completely different category with no relationships anywhere in regards to um the retail landscape here in the US and been given the trust to kind of have the hands on the keyboard for the commercial strategy to do that. It was just an opportunity that I really appreciated and I got a lot out of um and launching the Oikos ready to drink protein shakes that are shelf stable. Or it's probably the, you know, when you're at the bar and you're talking about what you did at a given job, this particular project's one I would probably wax poetic on for quite some time. But first and foremost, um a manager and a leader who actually invested in giving us as her leadership team time and space to work on their leadership brand and their personal development outside of the skills that you use every day at work. Uh, and then having a team that was just closer to family uh than they were anything else. And I know that you know you'll see a lot of influencers talk about like, you know, you don't want to refer to your colleagues as family, et cetera. And I can see the value in that context, especially when you need to set boundaries. But this was just such like an organically true statement for me that me not me saying it was anything but that would be more false than anything else. Um, and just helping some of the folks there realize their potential, give them the ability to step into roles that maybe they thought it would take longer for them to step into, and then showing the organization and sometimes showing themselves of what they were actually capable of, you know, capable of doing that was special. Um, those four years are four years that I will keep with me for the rest of my life.

Nathan 31:48

Awesome. And you mentioned servant leadership, right? And I think that that is something that we hear a lot, and and some of our younger audience members hear a lot as well, right? It's some of those kind of buzzword terms that they need to think about being a servant leader. I I've talked about this a lot, actually.

What Servant Leadership Looks Like

Nathan 32:06

Um, but I think one of the things whenever this comes up, I always like to ask is how would you define servant leadership from your perspective? So that as those who are listening, when they hear that, what should that mean to them from your view?

Anibal 32:21

Yeah, it's a good question, articulate it. Uh, I'll try to make it situational to give it some texture. Um, I don't know, a hundred days or so in to Haleon, but let's let's use Den Denona as an example. When I started, um the first thing that I did was I tried to uh really spend time in understanding what each individual on the team's uh career journey looked like, their aspiration for their development, what they were, what they could articulate they were getting out of the role that they were in at the moment, and and really getting them to articulate what they wanted to get out of the next opportunity, whether that's a lateral or a promotion, and starting there. And then what I tried to do was really spend a lot of time walking through what it is that they were doing in contribution to the business and having them articulate to me the things that they saw were friction uh in the system. I didn't commit to solving them all, I just wanted to understand them and what they and what they saw from their perspective, the frictions were. If you can do them both well at the same time, it has an amplification effect on the impact you can have on a business.

Nathan 34:42

I really appreciate that, and especially the example that you used. And the reason why I say that is because I know you and I both have experienced the opposite of when a leader comes in, and I think this is very critical for those who may be listening to understand that as you go into a new role, taking that time to understand what you just mentioned from your team, their perspective and what's happening will actually probably help you grow your business faster and change things the way you want them to be quicker than if you came in from the opposite end of, okay, I'm coming into a new role. What's wrong? What do I want to change? How do I want to grow the business? What's working right? Like doing an evaluation of the actual business itself versus taking that time with the people. So I appreciate that view and that aspect because I think it's very important for those who are listening to understand that there is a different way to come into a new role.

Anibal 35:41

Well, yeah, and and I think that um businesses are run by people. And the same way you want to understand systems and processes and think that that's important to your onboarding, you have to understand like the most critical part of the equation, which are the individuals that are at the helm. Uh, you know, like if you just take all of the what some people might think is fluffy and put it to the side, it's it's it's quintessential to just delivering on what the job is asking of you, which is outperformance. I think the the the the tricky thing, and I think I think we've both kind of experienced in this in some capacity is when someone goes into a situation and they're being told by somebody else that they need to behave in a particular way. Yes, and they do that without authentically believing that that's the path. 99 out of a hundred times, everyone's going to feel it, everyone's going to see it. And when it doesn't work, it just self-uh affirms a bad mindset around like I see this was a waste of time. When when the reality is uh the leader who gave the instruction maybe could have spent a little bit more time finding how to help that leader identify an authentic way of doing that that's still true to the person that they are. So, like my iteration or or the way that uh servant leadership comes to life when when I do it isn't the same way that I would expect my senior directors or or even what I expect my boss to do. Like it's a very unique thing in regards to how it comes to life. Um, but at the end of the day, if you're just not that into that component of your career, think about it more so as a force multiplier that will have a direct impact on how your PL evolves over time. And if that's what motivates you, that's okay. But you have to recognize that not taking advantage of that truth is actually gonna slow you down, not not speed you up.

Nathan 37:50

Excellent. Love it. Believe it or not, we're gonna be running close on time.

Rapid Reflections

Nathan 37:55

So transition into our last kind of section, and that is what I call rapid reflections, right? So sharing as much as you want or as little as you like, right? I want to start with what is your let's go with what is your biggest success as a leader, one that you're most proud of across your career.

Anibal 38:16

Oh man, um, you asked the question, and the first image uh that came to my mind are oh man, the number of faces and names that I've had the privilege to work with and see now be VPs and SVPs and leaders of industry when I remember working with them and that being such like a distant aspiration. Um to me, and again, in the spirit of not having the ability to name every single person, I don't want to miss anyone, but like the images in my mind are the images of uh all those individuals uh that I could just be a part of their journey and seeing them grow into maybe more than what they thought they were capable at the time.

Nathan 39:07

Love that. All right, opposite side of that question, right? What do you think is has been your biggest failure as a leader?

Anibal 39:17

I kind of touched on it, but it I think it's important enough to double-click on. And it's coming back to that clarity around the concept of care. Um, there were points in my career when I was been, I get was given the privilege to lead my first set of teams. And maybe this was a little bit of hubris on my part. I always felt like uh if someone wasn't working out, it was my fault as a coach or something that I wasn't doing, and that caring meant uh trying to help that talent maybe do more than what they wanted to do to get on track. And unfortunately, as I reflect, it happened maybe a handful of times instead of just one. So it took me a while to learn the lesson. But what I realized, especially after I finally made the right choices and either either helped find the right fit for the talent or uh respectfully exited them from the situation, and had the honest conversations with their peers, and you hear the the things that were that weren't said about the tax and the weight and the and the frustration and the friction that that talent was adding to the equation. And while I was trying to quote unquote be caring to them, I was being the opposite of caring to the talent that I really wanted to foster and grow. That's definitely something that I'm in my current uh mindset is something I'm super mindful of. I will not do that again.

Nathan 40:55

That is a great insight for those who are listening, by the way. I think that's a wonderful lesson that you've been able to learn. That is a really good piece of advice for those who are uh listening to the podcast. So, what advice would you give to your younger self if you could knowing what you know now, right? About either career or life? Anything that you would say, uh, after all these years, things that I've learned, what did I wish I'd known sooner?

Anibal 41:26

I would tell myself to go to as many places as possible as early as possible in my career. Um family is beautiful and I love my children, they're at the core of everything uh that's meaningful to me. Um, but if there's a season in your life where you have a little bit of flexibility, maybe a little bit of independence, experiencing the world through other people's eyes uh is extremely formative. Um regardless of what your belief structure is, etc., just just building an authentic uh empathy that you can't get in the book, you know. You kind of, you know, if you can live it, it it's so much more powerful. That's something I would say. The other piece is I'm generally uh introverted. So some people might debate that, but I after you know uh 20 plus years, I know how to put that in my pocket and deliver on what has to get done in the moment. But I'm I'm generally an introverted person. And I think early in my career, I um I didn't understand the value and the intentionality needed when it comes to networking. I told myself that it was icky and used car salesman-y, etc. But I think that was just my way of like giving myself an excuse not to invest enough thought in how to do that uh in a genuine way. Uh, and I think that there are a number of relationships uh that I could have formed differently that could still be bearing fruit today in my career. And don't get me wrong, I'm completely content with where I'm at, but I didn't really start to think about that until much later than I should have. And I think the the bit that got me as an introvert over the line is there isn't a person on this planet that you can't learn something from. Uh, I think you alluded to it before when it comes to leaders. Like sometimes you might learn what you shouldn't do, and sometimes you learn uh what you should do, but you should always be open to receiving the lesson. Um, and people, um, all walks of life in all spaces, they have a lesson to offer you if you're like humble enough, open enough uh to receive it.

Nathan 43:52

A hundred percent agree. And this is actually I don't know if you even realize this, but when I worked for you um directly for A number a few years anyway, um, as we were partners, so to speak, uh, in that business. One of the things that I was getting feedback on was kind of my introversion at that point in time and not speaking up enough and making my thoughts and and vision kind of known as much as it should. And during that time frame was when I really shifted actively, intentionally, shifted how I showed up in meetings and how I showed up in different aspects of the business to really change this perception. Because I think the one thing that caught me off guard through that time of us working together was hearing from folks who thought either I was uninterested or wasn't, I didn't have an opinion on the task at hand or whatever it was, or that I just wasn't paying attention. And it wasn't that at all. I just never wanted to say the same thing as somebody else, or just to talk to be talking. But I I started, you know, as we were working together, I was starting to really take some of that feedback in and focus on okay, what can I say that is not duplicative? It wasn't to talk just to be talking, but how can I engage with others in a more deliberate and focused way so that they at least understood that I could contribute and that I could bring things to the table. And what you're just talking about there from this introversion, it can impact you in a way that you don't even realize. And that was something that happened to me.

Anibal 45:41

The crazy thing, Nate, and it's just two of us kind of resonating on the same thing, is usually people who are introverted are naturally inclined to being really good active listeners. And the reality is a lot of people in that same room may not even be intentionally being as thoughtful as you were being about adding incrementality to that conversation. And what happened, and I'll tell you from the outside looking in, is over time, it's like if Nate's gonna say something, we should at least take it in and understand it. Because it's not just a flippant comment that's getting thrown out there for the sake of it being thrown out there. It's because he's been listening this whole time and because he's been thinking about what it could mean, and because he has made every effort to understand what we're all trying to accomplish, not just what he's trying to accomplish. And to me, that was always your secret sauce.

Nathan 46:32

But I learned through that, like I had to speak more because other people in the business were probably taking things on as much as you were from me. So I think that's such a valuable lesson for people to really think about. But thank you so much. I really truly appreciate having you on. It's been fun to catch back up. It's been a number of years since we've gotten to chat. So it was a lot of fun to connect again and chat through. And always fun to have somebody who I highly respect and value as a leader that I've worked for actually come and join me. Um, so I greatly appreciate it. Any final thoughts for those who may be listening?

Anibal 47:10

No, I just, you know, thank you. And you know, you're very generous with your words, but I I really truly um believe that I learned as much from you as anyone else that I've worked with. Um I I really, really, really appreciated the partnership, and I I really felt that that was what we had uh when we worked together. Uh, and I really appreciate that you're creating a space where um you don't have to stand on the top of you know a mountain and yell at the top of your lungs to trying to make an impact in this world. You very quietly, intentionally, and thoughtfully are making an impact. Um, and whoever's listening to the podcast, you're better for it. So um again, appreciate you giving me the chance to remember and reflect on some of these things. Some of the stuff that we discussed, to be frank, I hadn't even thought about until we started talking about it out loud. So really appreciate the opportunity.

Closing Takeaways

Nathan 48:02

What a fantastic conversation with Annabel. There were so many meaningful leadership lessons packed into this episode from embracing lateral career moves and seeking experiences that broaden your perspective to understanding that true leadership starts with listening, trust, and authentic care for your people. One of the biggest reminders for me is that leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about creating the kind of environment where your team can bring their best forward. And sometimes being a great leader means having the hard conversations just as much as the encouraging ones. Thanks so much for joining us for Life and Leadership Stories. If Annie Bull's story resonated with you, I hope you'll come back for future episodes and hear from even more leaders. If this episode inspired you, share it with someone who needs encouragement today. And remember, trust your gut, be kind, lead with purpose, and never underestimate your impact. Until next time, I'm Nathaniel Norker, and this is Life and Leadership Story.