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Half Mile Coffee Podcast
Coffee Professionals in Moscow Idaho talking about the specialty coffee industry, our roastery, brewing, and everything coffee.
Half Mile Coffee Podcast
Coffee News and Changes in Specialty Coffee
We taste a wild yellow Pacamara and use it to crack open a bigger story about price shocks, shifting standards, and why grocery shelves rarely serve great coffee. Lawsuits, tariffs, value discovery, and practical buying tips round out a fast tour of specialty’s new map.
• Pacamara’s origin, processing, and creamy flavor profile
• Competitions driving rare varietals into the spotlight
• Washed versus natural tradeoffs for roasters
• Misleading labels and where coffee actually grows
• Tariffs, Brazil exposure, and price volatility
• Robusta shortages pressuring Arabica demand
• Specialty’s pivot from technical scoring to value discovery
• Ethics, traceability, and coferments under debate
• Why we avoid grocery shelves and margins math
• How to pick better coffee at the store
• La Marzocco visit, roasting gear, and new classes
• Holiday bundles, coffee syrup launch, and shipping deals
Find all classes under our Education tab. Christmas bundles and gift cards now live. “We ship nationwide, free shipping for everything over $40.” “Black Friday, we’re gonna ship everything for free.” “If you’re in Moscow December 6th, come to the Moscow fair because we are gonna be there.”
Hey, welcome back to the Half Mile Coffee Podcast. We're broadcasting today from the office. Think of the Bluetooth. We have chickens. We do. So cat and a dog. Fair enough. So yeah. So yeah. So we moved. We're not doing the uh at the roastry anymore. It's too loud. Too much going on.
SPEAKER_00:We do have a we have a loud neighbor.
SPEAKER_01:You have a loud neighbor. Likes to work out. Call him Mr. Incredible. Slamming weights.
SPEAKER_00:Don't tell people that I call him Mr. Incredible. Oh, it's out there now. It's a small town.
SPEAKER_01:It's out there now. It's a small town. Yeah, we've started off. It's pretty good arrangement. Like I set up the equipment, you make coffee.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:So it worked out pretty well. We got a pacamara.
SPEAKER_00:Yellow pacamara today. And we had I had to cup like seven coffees this morning. So this is a leftover from the cupping.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and pacamara is an interesting one. It's a hybrid. There was a varietal discovered in El Salvador in 58 by Fernando Pacas. I hope I've heard Pacas. Pacas.
SPEAKER_00:You're so new.
SPEAKER_01:Now the farm. It's the New England guy speaking Spanish. So now it there's uh he's fifth generation farm now, the Pacas family in El Salvador, and they bred it with uh I'm gonna murder the other varietal. What do you call it? Margot. Margot guype, yes. So they crossbred it with a Margot Gype. They're really cool, they're elephant beans.
SPEAKER_00:They're not elephant beans. They're big. That's that's just what I said when I gr ground them and they wouldn't go down because they were so big. And when I roasted these, they actually got stuck in the uh, in the what do you call the the tray, the little jar that the catch jar.
SPEAKER_01:Uh that's uh the technical term is grinder catch jar.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no. This is on the roaster.
SPEAKER_01:Grinder on the roaster?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. On the cow?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So anyway, it got stuck, and when I pulled out the little jar, all the coffee just fell all over the floor or all over the counter. So it was pretty comical. I've never seen bigger coffee beans ever.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and we're pretty excited about it. Like really great. I I don't know if we're gonna offer it yet, but I just uh I wanted to talk about it because it's a really unique varietal. It's uh it became famous during a world brewer's competition. I feel like competitions with barista competitions, brewer competitions, they really highlight uh rare finds and it becomes it's where special, some really special micro lots become popular and trendy. And Pacamara is one of those. So if you can ever get your hands on one, it's worth buying and trying it because they're known for uh like a creamy texture, nice acidity. Like the acidity on this is really it's it's really balanced and yeah, really smooth, really nice mouthfeel. Really chocolatey, floral.
SPEAKER_00:Really cool aftertaste on this coffee. And it's not noted by it's it's not noted by the grower, but I'm just getting such a cool, like, almost like a chili aftertaste. I really, I really like it. And this is a washed coffee, and washed coffees are not my I don't seek after washed coffees, but I do appreciate them and I'm learning to appreciate them more and more.
SPEAKER_01:Which I'm glad because roasters don't particularly care for washed coffees. I mean, sorry, natural coffees. They produce more quakers, they don't roast as evenly. So as but they're worth the effort because they're really nice, they really taste really, they have a lot of flavor to them, the naturals that the washed have, but aren't as pronounced. So, so what do we got to talk about today? We have three things. Yeah, we've got news, we have news coffee news, coffee news a lot going on in coffee right now.
SPEAKER_00:This is like the coffee gossip section of our podcast.
SPEAKER_01:We went to uh we are in a Seattle uh cafe this week, and uh it said we'll trade coffee for gossip.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that was a great sign.
SPEAKER_01:So you don't even have to give us any coffee, and we're gonna do some gossiping about coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:We're really just sharing news.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's public news.
SPEAKER_01:It's all out there. It's nothing secret. We don't know. It feels a little gossipy. Right. So I have a friend in the Trump administration, and uh, we talked all about the coffee tariffs today. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00:Any insider info?
SPEAKER_01:Like that didn't happen, no.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_00:Did you slide a note?
SPEAKER_01:No. So yeah, so we're gonna talk about tariff uh coffee news. One of them is tariffs. Um, and tariffs are really driving high coffee prices right now.
SPEAKER_00:They're so volatile. It's not that they're just high. It's like it's like when your kindergartner scribbles on your, you know, on a piece of paper. It's so up and down and up and down, it's so unpredictable, and it's just crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a challenge for all roasters right now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then we were gonna talk about the changing landscape of specialty coffee, yeah. Which I think has a lot to do with coffee prices as well. There's an element of coffee pricing.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, it's a value. Coffee value.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and then the merging of I think the merging of the middle of you know, your regular everyday coffee person that goes to a cafe, what they want. And I think specialty is moving towards people what people want instead of a distinct experience, which is interesting. I got a lot of opinions on that that I'll unvetted opinions that I will share. Um, and then what was the third thing we're gonna talk about?
SPEAKER_00:Grocery store coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes. I think that's you know, we get talked to about that a lot. Why is why are we choosing not to put our stuff in grocery stores?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, to to be fair though, it we do sell our coffee at sword and shovel. So if you're in Moscow and you want our coffee, it's on the counter at Sword Sword and Shovel. So go buy it there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I think that's much different. Selling it through a cafe, if we wholesale with a cafe, selling our coffee there versus selling it in grocery store is a way different um arrangement.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And we'll get into that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so let's first let's talk about the news. So, what is going on with Black Rifle?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so Black Rifle Coffee has been sued by two parties in one is from New York, one person is from New York, and one person is from California, and they are asserting that black rifle coffee has been deceptive in their advertising as America Forward uh and American-made coffee. And they're they're not exactly saying American made on their bag. They say America's coffee, and they have an American flag, but the the lawsuit alleges that Black Rifle is deceiving their customers into thinking that the coffee is actually grown in the United States.
SPEAKER_01:So I've got mixed feelings about this.
SPEAKER_00:I don't, I agree.
SPEAKER_01:Because I think it's pretty frivolous. I think there's people out there that look for opportunities to sue people that are successful. Yeah, and I think this is a perfect example of this. I I think they do a lot of good in the veteran community. Agree. They uh they spend a lot of money, they they do a lot of things for veterans' organizations, um, and so it's kind of a shame. I also that's kind of their marketing vibe. Totally, totally the America, you know. If you go watch their YouTube, you know, it's all very uh veteran focused in America. You know, everybody that I knew in the military loves Black Rifle, loved the videos, um, like the coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, their bags are great. Their bags are really good to look at, really creative.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but it does highlight the fact that people most people know nothing about coffee. Exactly. So if you're I don't know how you can make the mistake of thinking that it's American-made coffee as if it's the green coffees produced in America, because that's just not the case. Like you were saying, even with Hawaii, which is the United States where they grow kona coffee, a lot of times when you get bags of coffee, it's blended with something else.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And Kona coffee, the real, really good kona coffee is$35 a pound green. And so you're not buying that at the grocery store. So if you have a grocery store kona coffee, it's either extremely low quality or it's a kona blend. So, and then the only other place that coffee is grown in the United States is Santa Barbara, California. And it's very experimental, it's not available. I'm pretty sure Starbucks bought most of it. And, you know, and I'm not, I'm not a hundred, I'm not a hundred percent sure about the quality of that coffee because it's so low elevation and it's outside the tropics. So coffee is only grown between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn. So get out your map. It is the area above and below the equator, essentially, around the globe. And so that is the, and even within those regions, that coffee has to be high elevation. So up in the mountains to get a really special cup of coffee. So it's very rare. Coffee is a a real privilege to have, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, and it needs the elevation, not so much because of the elevation, but because of the environmental conditions in the mountains. Hot during the day, cold at night. A lot like wine or grapes for wine that need to be tortured a little bit to uh ferment and produce sweetness and and all those types of things. But anyway, so I think that just highlights the consumer uh element that they don't understand where coffee is. I also believe it's it's just probably frivolous that someone's it's you know, it's kind of like those people that go around and find um places that don't have handicap or you know, ADA accessible things and uh and just sue. So I think there's a there's a frivolous aspect to this, but I also believe that they need to tighten up on their marketing vibe because there is a you know, there's really two different kinds of coffee. I mean, when when you're marketing, right? You're either marketing based on quality or you're marketing based on some gimmick or or vibe, right? So, um, and so they're marketing based on, you know, America and veterans, but in the same token, they do a lot of good in that community. So it's very hard to be upset with them. I I mean net their their coffee's not our our jam, you know, because it's a little bit uh it's commodity coffee, but they do dabble in the specialty.
SPEAKER_00:They absolutely do. They absolutely do.
SPEAKER_01:But um, yeah, so that's going on. What other kind of coffee news do we want to talk about? I love how you cringed when I talked about the ADA stuff.
SPEAKER_00:I know because I spent three weeks in a wheelchair, and you get a different perspective when you actually like have to move through the world in in a situation where you do need a handicapped access ramp or something. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So okay, let's talk about tariffs.
SPEAKER_00:Let's talk about tariffs.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you're looking at okay, so I guess there's news today that there was a bunch of agricultural products that were removed from the tariff list. Coffee being one of them.
SPEAKER_00:Yay!
SPEAKER_01:So but I don't but coffee prices being a record high right now, green coffee or raw coffee or commodity coffee or the sea market, whatever you want to call it, being a record high isn't isn't likely to come down because most countries were 10% tariff on coffee. Right. The the big problem is um no, we're waiting to see what is gonna happen with Brazil. Right. Um, because there's a 50% tariff on Brazil. Um, and so Brazil being the largest coffee producing country, I don't know if people know that or not. You know, you ask m multiple people, and people are gonna guess Colombia, yeah, right, because of the commercials in the 80s. Um, and but but Brazil is by far, it's like 50% of the coffee, 70% of all coffee comes from Brazil. Right. So if if that has a 50% tariff on it, so that stakes the price, right? Because not only is is it going to make all the other coffee in the world hard to get, because now everybody's vying for the other 30% of coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:The coffee market is growing right now exponentially, or specialty coffee market is growing. So that creates scarcity because Asia is buying a lot of coffee, Japan has a huge coffee culture, China's starting to get into the coffee culture, they're buying all the cup of excellence Panamanians at huge prices. Um, and so there's a lot of competition within specialty coffee, and now you're limited to 30% coffee in the world. And on top of that, it's it stakes the price because you know that's the market and how the market works, right? Supply and demand. So we'll see what coffee prices do, but I know for us, um, it's that's a big part of our conversation every day is coffee prices. Because you almost feel like a day trader, you know, with your hand on the button, waiting to buy more coffee uh based on what the market's doing that day, because everybody's going up and down on the market, which is crazy, and that's what people talk about with the specialty coffee market, it shouldn't be dependent on commodity or sea market prices, but for some reason it still is because as humans we need something to compare some one thing to another.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and we all need to be able to buy into the next harvest. And so not only because of political reasons, but for environmental reasons, coffee's price fluctuates. If there's if there's a big storm or if there's too much rain or not enough rain somewhere in the world that makes coffee, then you know, if that crop is eliminated from, you know, which from the choices, then everything else is more expensive, or there's less coffee from that place. So we've seen, so even outside of Arabica, so there's two kinds of coffee: there's Arabica and there's Robusta. Rabusta is a lower elevation coffee, it is extremely uh hardy a plant. They have way less problems with insects than Arabica, and it's often used in coffees like Folgers. So um last year, Robusta, a lot of the Robusta harvest was not available because of um bad weather. And so it put a lot more pressure on the Arabica market in general. So there's so much, uh, there's so much uncertainty in coffee.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and and you're starting to see prices come up now because of it. I'm seeing people that just sell non-specialty coffee that their prices are almost as high as ours. And and you don't know if the market will support raising your prices to make margin, but eventually it becomes, you know, it it pushes you to the point where you've got to consider, are you making enough margin to even do it? And so, and by and large, that's why we're not pushing really hard into wholesale because the margins right now don't make it worthwhile.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So if you're listening to this, just buy more of our coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I was so, but this also tell your friends. I think that's all the news, but I also wanted to piggyback this onto the what's going on with specialty coffee right now with the changing landscape.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Because I think they're and I'll let you talk to this that now we're doing the the value assessment, so we're bringing in more variables outside of just quality.
SPEAKER_00:Right. We call them attributes.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So there's other attributes coming in, but I think it's also, I think, consumer demand is shaping a little bit of the pain people are feeling as specialty cafes of trying to differentiate themselves. So it's really, we're in a really interesting spot with specialty coffee right now. So talk about how specialty coffee's changed over this last year on how we grade, score, and value coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And so I think I think how we think about coffee hasn't changed. We are always looking for coffees that will pass inspection that don't have a lot of defects or any defects, honestly, and that taste really, really good. And what we have in our minds is uh, you know, the people who drink our coffee and and the feedback that we've gotten about what you like, what you don't like, what you buy, what you don't buy, um, that informs our choices a lot. And also we know all the insider information about all the farms and all the processes and the prices and just a lot of programs that that are happening around the world in coffee. So the way that the coffee evaluation system has changed with the specialty coffee association is that they're bringing in more attributes beyond just what the technical quality is, like the defects and um the you know, bean itself, as well as beyond just the scoring the flavors. So um now we take into consideration the processing, the farm, the farmer, the origin, the um certifications, whether or not there are uh other information. Is there a cat on the farm? I mean, that could be an attribute, you know, anything can be an attribute, and we assess all of those to determine the value of coffee. It's called value discovery. And so we go through now a value discovery process, not just an objective scoring process. And the value is based on what we believe our customers will value. And so um, black rifle coffee, for example, might value a coffee that is from a farm where perhaps an expat is doing all the farming, you know. So that was a veteran. So that could be an attribute.
SPEAKER_01:You win native.
SPEAKER_00:Well, a lot of people go live in Costa Rica or Nicaragua or, you know, and they start industries there. So um, or if there is uh an orphanage attached to this farm, what where the coffee is is funding a social project, or if the farm is um uh shade, if the if the coffee is shade grown, or if they are fair trade, or you know, all of these certifications and all of these programs are coming into play now. And I I think that's really good. Um, but I think it's a lot of information. And so distilling it down and and consuming it as a buy as a green coffee buyer and organizing it is a little bit daunting. But I think overall, what people are really looking for is good traceability in their coffee. They want to know where it comes from, they want to know what's going on at the farm, they want to make sure that the people that are picking the coffee cherries are being treated well and paid well. And, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think some of this is uh a way to increase not increase, but to highlight value at the point of contracting the coffee from the farmer so they get paid more for it?
SPEAKER_00:I I definitely think that the specialty coffee industry is looking to reward farmers and farms for adding value to the to the the whole entire process.
SPEAKER_01:So under CQI, which which who held the Q grader program or the the person who grades the coffee for a value assessment.
SPEAKER_00:Right. That was the coffee quality institute. They still exist.
SPEAKER_01:So yes, they still exist, but under them it was all based on objective quality standards like defects and taste what you taste in the cup.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I wouldn't say objective quality standards, I would say technical quality standards and um and calibrated cupping scores. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Where now under this the new program there's the val there's value attached to the way in which the coffee's produced, not just the outcome in the green coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It's actually the entire chain from the time that the the bean is planted or the seed is planted to the time that it's processed all the way through the the process of shipping, like everybody who touches the coffee can add value to that coffee.
SPEAKER_01:And so, in your opinion, how is this going to change the specialty coffee industry right now or going forward?
SPEAKER_00:I think it'll give the consumer an opportunity to have more of a nuanced understanding of their of the product itself and be able to support things that they're interested in.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. But that's gonna have to come with the importer or the farmer highlighting those things when they're being assessed.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Anybody can can say, hey, I've added value to this process in this way. My like my importer, let's say let's say you're the importer and you say, okay, well, when I ship the coffee, I use all electric boats. Or some or something. You know, all of my containers are cardboard. All of my you know what I mean? Like I I hire people who have, you know.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know what. Well, you go back to the Pepe, right? The in Ecuador, he hires women that have been abandoned.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right. Single moms.
SPEAKER_01:Single moms, yeah, who are looking for for work. Right. So I mean, I think, yeah, there's a story where you're you're happy to put your money behind it. Right. So I so yeah. So how do you how do you think that shapes this really weird place we're in where uh coffee is between 80 and 90, the bottom's starting to fall out of it, where it's getting lost. Because by and large, and this was uh, you know, I was at a roasting school last week and with people that are actually producing coffee, and they were saying that by and large the commodity coffee that you're getting is pretty close to specialty because the agricultural process around the world is getting pretty good. Um, and they're starting to take their cues from specialty coffee, not all of them, right? Because there's a difference between raised bed drying coffee and brick in cement patios, um, and what you're gonna get for fungus and all of that. But by and large, like the coffee, the quality is not there's not a huge difference um sometime most of the time. And so you're starting to see yeah, so you're starting to it's just interesting, you're starting to see special some specialty coffee companies push more towards the commodity type of coffee experience versus um really highlighting some of the things you're talking about. Because in a cafe you just don't have that much time if you're trying to produce a lot of drinks.
SPEAKER_00:I I think I've been in cafes where I've gotten a watermelon coferment on a pour-over, and it was amazing.
SPEAKER_01:In Ireland.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, in Ireland. But um, I think that's a different cafe than the cafe that where you know you have a you know pumpkin spice latte. I I mean it's a different cafe.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I don't think that's horrible, but I would I would use a the I would use the example of matcha. So if if you're a specialty coffee cafe and you're serving matcha, you're you're you're kind of moving you're moving the conversation away from coffee and towards a trendy drink. Same with signature drinks. So you're starting to see you're starting to see people in cafes move more towards um just because of the sheer volume they have to put out, more towards a consumeristic experience where I get my coffee fast, I get it with a lot of syrup, I get my matcha, I get my specialty drink, um, versus going to a place like Moon Wake where there's a sitting bar for pour overs. Like how many cafes do you see pour overs in? Not very many. So I think we're starting to see like some real distinctions pop up. And this is all a stream of consciousness, but it's it's just really interesting to see what's going on and what the separation is going to be. So, you know, finding what the separation is gonna be.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think this new uh coffee value discovery system really opens up the ability to assess coffee in a broad sense. And I think it allows for for us to bring in those uh not novel and new processing methods like the coferments and the yeast inoculations and things like that. Um, whereas I don't think that the old assessment had the ability to do that. That was actually considered a defect. Well, but it's super controversial.
SPEAKER_01:It is, and and I think fermenting overfermented is a defect under the old school. Was right. So that's what I'm saying. The landscape is changing rapidly. That's you're talking about something that happened in the last six months, and people are still upset about it. You get people like old school guys still believe that co-fermented coffees are just a new flavoring, flavored coffee. It to them, there's there's no different than I don't share this opinion, but there's it's no different than just putting liquid blueberry, you know, on them and spinning them before you bag it and it's flavored coffee, blueberry flavored coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So the cool, so the cool thing is you're allowed to have that opinion. You know, like they're allowed to have that opinion and they're allowed to think in terms of, okay, what is my preference? What is my customer's preference? Who am I deciding for? If I'm deciding for myself, I can decide, I can decide anything. I can I can evaluate what what matters most to me. And if it's that all of my coffee flavors come from the terroir and they come from the varietal and they come from, you know, the processing without adding anything to it, then that's man, highlight that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I just think there's there's um, I feel the tension and I agree with some of these folks that believe there's too much subjectivity in it. So just because I call it specialty, now it's specialty, um, there's not a lot of stick, strict standards on it. And so I think there's a real tension there, and it'll be interesting. And then you have the whole group that's pushing against the change uh altogether, and then in that you have a regulatory body like SCA governing everything, anything anyway. So it's just I mean, there's a lot of tumult right now in specialty coffee, and it'll be and so it's it's fun to see. It's fun to talk about, fun to see what people think, but it's it'll be an interesting journey in the last next couple of years to see where it actually ends up.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it will be.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Last but not least, let's talk about the grocery store.
SPEAKER_00:I think this is great. I think all of our themes today have kind of gone around the same topics. Yeah, I really think it revolves around quality. What is quality? Uh, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and we should say that the specialty coffee standard still still holds to inspecting greens.
SPEAKER_00:For us, that's one of the most important things. And I really believe that a good, clean coffee that does not have defects and it does not have black beans or you know, sour you know, sour beans or insect damage, I think that matters.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I don't think people understand when you're talking about specialty coffee, there's strict adherence, there's standards you have to adhere to. One is say moisture. And if I'm if I'm saying moisture, you know, a coffee has to be between 9 and 12% moisture when we get it uh or when it leaves the farm, that can seem like a very irrelevant standard to most people. But that so but the reason that they have that standard is so fungus doesn't develop and you don't get microtoxins. Because here's the secret in specialty coffee, you don't have microtoxins. A lot of people will test their coffee anyway and tell you that they don't have microtoxins and they test it. That's great. But just the the practice of having green coffee between 9 and 12 percent when it's green prior to roasting eliminates 99.9% of microtoxins, right? It's the same with fungus. The fact that you're not allowed to have fungus or limited fungus. No, yeah, no fungus. Um insect damage is very limited. Very limited, yeah. And again, a lot of health problems occur when you allow for lots of insect damage, right? Who knows what they're doing in there? And then the one of the issues, like say Burundi. Burundi's a perfect example of a coffee we don't buy just because it's a beautiful coffee.
SPEAKER_00:Burundi makes awesome coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Rwanda suffers from the same problem. Also beautiful coffee. The region, beautiful coffee, but the problem is you're gonna get the potato defect periodically in that bag of green coffee, and you can't even tell unless you cup it or you drink it. And then you're gonna taste, it's gonna taste like a raw potato or a raw potato skin. And the reason is it the reason that develops is because a there's a particular bug that bores in that brings with it a fungi, and it leaves that particular flavor. But so to my and I sort of circling back to my point, if you're allowed to have coffee with insect damage, you're getting fungus in there. And that's predominantly why they don't allow fungus or insect damage. And so that is still a standard in specialty coffee. I think the value, what we're talking about, so the there's a quality aspect still, which I appreciate. The value that's a little bit too squishy for me, I think, is in the flavor notes that is very customer-centric, right? It's not an objective quality, it's a customer like acidity, sweetness, body, all those things I think are pretty objective qualities. Those other ones are well, do customers like mango, passion fruit, coffee, right? Um, come from a coferment. And some of those are really cool. Like, I think some of the experimental processes are really neat. And uh again, it's but it's marketing. Same with the story, like you said, if there's a cat on the farm, like I don't know. To me, that's gross. I don't want coffee with a cat on the farm. Some people are like, oh, that's so sweet. They have a cat rescue on the farm.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and then the cat has a name, you know, and it has a role on the farm.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. To some people that that's probably great. Uh, what would the role role would a cat have on a farm? I I don't know. Bats the coffee cherries around and dries them on the bed. So um, yeah, but it's very again, that's very marketing-centric, right? Right? So I I don't quite understand it. We have these discussions all the time, and I don't quite understand it. I do agree with having a single regulatory body like the specialty coffee association that holds the standards. I think that's important, but only time will tell if some of this subjective um value uh assessments are going to stand the test of time. Um, but very anyway, I guess we we weren't done with that subject, so I circled back around. But all right, so let's talk about grocery store. Going back to quality. I think this is some of this is marketing for me, right? Some of this is value assessment, but a lot of the reasons are quality. So um the in particular, one of the reasons why I don't like to, I don't want to put my coffee in a grocery store is it's gonna sit there for a long time.
SPEAKER_00:That's one reason, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So um coffee is best if it's consumed a month off of roast.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Within a few weeks. It's the sweet spot for coffee usually is about two weeks off roast, two to four weeks.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and uh the only way you can extend it is if you do a nitrogen flush on your packaging, which we don't have a nitrogen flush right now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so this is why you're not gonna see you'll never see the best coffees in the world in a grocery store.
SPEAKER_00:No, never, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right? And and not only is it because freshness is an issue, but the other issue is they want they would want to devalue your coffee. So we talked, we kind of started the the podcast talking about, you know, you can get our coffee in cafes. And I think the reason why you can get it in a cafe is because I set the price. And I said, you know, I don't want you selling it for less than you'd have to buy it on my website, because I think there's a there's a an aspect of devaluing the coffee that I don't want to do. You know, not only are you getting think about the margins you're not getting from a coffee. And it's certain at some point you've you can seem like you're a busy roastery if you're you know roasting 5,000 pounds a month, but if you're a wholesale roaster and you're selling all 5,000 pounds of that via wholesale, you're getting, I don't know,$2 a pound on that coffee. So the grocery store can make$2 a pound on that coffee. And so by the end of the day, um, your your margins for the amount of work you have to do are very low. And not only that, what does it say to the consumer when the supermarket takes your coffee that you sell for$20 or$22 and then wants to sell it for$15 because it has to compete next to a commodity coffee where they just roasted it till it was dead and threw it in a bag, you know what I mean? And so So you could probably dripping with attitude. So you could probably tell why I don't want to put it in a grocery store or even bag. So even now, like you go to a grocery store, how many different brands of coffee are in there?
SPEAKER_00:I would say like 14 to 20 every time we go to a real grocery store and look, at least.
SPEAKER_01:Boy, we were in Safeway and there had to be 40. It was like ridiculous.
SPEAKER_00:And Walmart just came out with their greater goods brand specialty coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. So, right, there's no specialty coffee police out there. So anybody can call themselves specialty, or what they do is they dress it up in a bag. Their bags are pretty jazzy. Yeah, they imitate a specialty coffee bag.
SPEAKER_00:We should we should cup some, we should try it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I mean, I just think it's unethical to a certain because I guarantee you there's nobody at Walmart that's you know cupping that and grading it. So they're trying to capture the market, right? So specialty coffee is growing right now, so everybody's trying to capture that market, and then you have all these other people that are jumping in that um that are trying to make a buck, or you know, you have like big equity firms buying coffee now and combining them to try to make dollars. And so I think yeah, so I think it's very tough for the consumer right now to know what they're buying because they're being bamboozled in a lot of different ways.
SPEAKER_00:So let's help the consumer. If let's say you run out of our coffee because you didn't subscribe and and you are you have to go huge mistake, huge mistake, but you have to go to the grocery store. How can we help people pick better coffee at the grocery store?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I know you have an opinion. I've heard you tell people this several times. So go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. When you go to the grocery store, uh what you really want to look for is uh the label, and the label should say uh what the coffee is. And so it should say Arabica, first of all, and it should say the place where it comes from. So if it if you if it says um Ethiopia or Honduras, that's a good sign. And then I was looking at some of the more specialty uh coffee roasters that you can find in the grocery store, like Stumptown, for example, we can buy here. And so if I look on the back, printed on the back of their bag, I can't remember if it was Stumptown or someone else, I saw that they even gave you the it was a blend. And so on the back, it told you what how much of each uh origin was in the blend. It said like 25% Guatemalan, 10% Honduras, you know? And so I thought that was really cool. And I think if you the more specific information you get on your coffee bag, the better your coffee's gonna be. Um, and then if it has an actual roast date on it, none of the coffee that I looked at had a roast date. It had a best buy date. But if you find one, like maybe you have an awesome grocery store, and if it has a roast date on it, that's really good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're most likely gonna find those in co-ops.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like a Whole Foods maybe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, or like our co-op. They have you know local roasters in there. But still, you look in their bag, it's uh roast date, but it's it's old. You know what I mean? It's and they do put a roast date on there, which is good. And um, but all the yeah, I think the more granular the information in the grocery store, the better. I will say we don't put all that stuff on our label, but mostly it's because our product card's on our website. So if you're buying coffee from our website, all that information's on there. I mean, we drill down pretty far to elevation, elevation process, what the varietal is, all that stuff. Um so uh but we keep our our uh our labels pretty clean in that respect. Yep. But yeah, I think this is a good point. All right. Should we wrap it up? I mean, what else what else are we gonna talk about? My coffee is gone. It was a really good coffee.
SPEAKER_00:I and I'm enjoying this cold. It's really, really good cold. So we we just like we just found a really good new source of coffee that we're kind of sad that it, you know, his whole harvest is sold out just about, but we're looking forward to buying in next season.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, we're looking to do a direct trade relationship with this farmer, um, who has a lot of really cool, interesting um coffees.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he has his own farm and then he has he runs a co-op and yeah, in Nicaragua.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. This is in Nicaragua.
SPEAKER_00:So very cool, cool stuff, cool fun stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Any other news with us going on? So we just got back from La Marzoco. That was fun. So we did an open house at La Marzoco if you don't know them. They're the an Italian espresso machine maker. Um uh that's based in the US, but they produce them in Italy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they bench test them in Seattle, right?
SPEAKER_01:But they're produced in Italy. Uh they the big claim for to fame, or the big reason you might know them is they produced, they were the first one to provide machines or for Starbucks in Seattle.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So, yeah, so great machines, those are the ones that if we're gonna sell a machine or or you know, install a cafe or help somebody with a commercial machine. That's that's what we have, that's what we recommend. Great machines. They're they have a a Mikra. If you're looking for a home espresso machine, um you you can't go wrong with it. Just fantastic. And then fantastic people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they were so nice. They were so nice.
SPEAKER_01:So that um we're going to D trick tomorrow, a roasting, a roaster producer. Uh, a company that makes roasters right here in Idaho, which and they make the like probably the one of the top three specialty coffee roasters in the world that specialty roasters use, which is kind of cool that they're in our backyard. So we'll talk about that maybe next time, that visit.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and then do you want to say anything about your your classes are now online?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I have a coffee school. It's called the Idaho Coffee Institute, and I teach uh specialty coffee classes that are um you can earn a certificate and you can work towards a coffee diploma if you want to. It's really for industry professionals, but anybody is allowed to take it as long as you're over 18. And those are under our education tab. And so I'm teaching my first class tomorrow, and I'm really, really excited. Um, yeah, so there's that. And then I will have some more in-person classes. My classes right now are online, but I'll have more in-person classes in the spring.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, cool. So you can find all that on our website.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. And then also Christmas is coming.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So we have all kinds of bundles and boxes that we've put together for people. So you don't even have to think about put, you know, well, I want to buy somebody coffee, but I don't, I don't know what to buy. I don't know what to buy them.
SPEAKER_01:We've already taken care of that for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So you have all there's all kinds of choices. We have a gift card on there, and so we are ready for Christmas. And if you are in Moscow December 6th, come to the Moscow fair because we are gonna be there.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:At the fairgrounds.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, and so much.
SPEAKER_00:My coffee syrup got approved, finally. So we are coming out with a new coffee syrup. Our first flavor is vanilla, it's super clean. There are no preservatives. So I was able to have it tested and develop a recipe that does not include and a process, it's really the process, um, that does not include any preservatives.
SPEAKER_01:So it's specialty, so there's no fungus or insect images either.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So anyway, I I'm gonna make our first batch on Friday. So that'll be available at the Moscow Fair and pretty soon on our website.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff. We shotgunned uh a lot of stuff at the end.
SPEAKER_00:I know. So yes.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Well, hey, thanks for listening. Thanks for following us, and uh thanks for being customers if you're customers. Um, and we're on YouTube if you want to see our faces, and you're just listening to this on in podcasts, so you can go there and you can smash the subscribe. Isn't that what they say?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's smash the like. Smash the like and subscribe. And subscribe, yeah. Yeah, and we're on Instagram and Facebook, and it really helps us out if you go to Instagram and Facebook and follow us. Yeah, follow us there, and then anywhere you get podcasts. And yeah, and if you're in town, our coffee's at Sword and Shovel. We ship nationwide, free shipping for everything over$40. And I think Black Friday, we're gonna ship everything for free.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So we're gonna have so the lingo is BFCM. Black Friday, Black Friday, Cyber Monday. So BFCM plan. So yeah, so keep an eye out. We're gonna we're gonna be having some special deals, or at least maybe some free shipping, and yeah, and maybe we'll uh uh do some incentives to buy some of those gift boxes and yeah, and then you're prepared, then you're ready for Christmas. Right. So you're the hero.
SPEAKER_00:You're the hero.
SPEAKER_01:You're the hero this year, coffee hero. All right. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next month.