The Noble Dram | Death & Taxes (Season 2 | Ep. 3)

In this episode of The Noble Dram, we dive deep into the true cost of your favorite pour—and it’s not just what’s in the glass. From the rebellion that helped define America to the modern-day system that controls how whiskey gets to your shelf, we’re unpacking the history, politics, and price behind every bottle.

From revolution to regulation, whiskey has always been caught in the middle of America’s favorite debate—freedom vs. control.
Because in the end…
Nothing is certain except death and taxes—and thankfully, whiskey helps with both.

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What’s the most you’ve ever paid for a bottle—and was it worth it? Drop a comment below 👇

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Aaron’s Pour: Spey Trunia
Gavin’s Pour: Still Austin - Blue Corn (Winter 2025)


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THE NOBLE DRAM HAS 2 PRIVATE BARREL PICKS! RESERVE YOUR BOTTLES HERE AND SAVE $10 PER BOTTLE:
Larceny Private Barrel
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https://www.eventbrite.com/e/1984162846486?aff=oddtdtcreator

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Transcript

Aaron 0:00

Have you ever wondered why whiskey, nothing more than grains, water, and yeast, can cost so much?

Gavin 0:08

Spoiler alert, it's not the fancy oak barrel. No, it's the government. Today we are talking taxes, middlemen, and why your whiskey has more handlers than a celebrity at the Met Gala. And it starts right here in America doing what we do best, arguing about taxes. Two things are always certain death and Texas. But here in the Lone Star State, it's death in Texas. That's right.

Aaron 1:09

So tonight we're drinking death and we're drinking Texas. And we're talking Texas. And Texas. So let's get started. I guess so in death in Texas, death goes first. Yeah. So that means I'm poor. I I got to pick the death bottle. Do tell. So tonight's death bottle. We'll explain why I picked this as the death bottle. Um, is a single malt scotch from the spay side distillery of spay side distillery.

Gavin 1:48

That's fancy wrapping out there.

Aaron 1:50

This is Spay Trutina.

Gavin 1:54

Wow.

Aaron 1:54

No, what is that? No, no pressure. I gotta open it live on air. Oh, live. There we go.

Gavin 2:00

Live on air.

Aaron 2:01

Recorded but live. Recording of a live instance. All right, so. Ooh, that was a good one. That was that was a good one. Fancy. Let's give Gavin a ridiculously small pour just to make him feel inferior to me. The so space trutina. This is X bourbon aged single mole. So this clocks in at 46% ABV, aged 10 years. And this is a limited release. So that's not why this is the death bottle. Although, yes, this had a limited run, and you cannot get this anymore. You doubly can't get this anymore. Not only was this a limited release from the Space Hide Distillery, uh, as of 2024, the Space Hide Distillery halted production, and in early 2025, they sold the distillery, and it has now been dismantled. Oh, wow. So this is a lost distillery. This distillery is now dead. Thus, well, I picked it as the death bottle. But we found it. So it's been found. I I did some digging for death whiskey. Um, one, none of it sounded tasty. I'll start there. Uh, and two, uh I I intrinsically don't trust any liquor that's served in a skull-shaped bottle. That's just my argument. Now, what I will say is you will see the spay name continue on. Uh, the new dis the new company that purchased the distillery, which is Glasgow Whiskey, uh, immediately put in request uh through whatever governing bodies in Scotland to get a new distillery approved. So they have dismantled the old distillery, completely gone, and they're building back a what they're describing as a low carbon emission distillery.

Gavin 4:02

Okay.

Aaron 4:03

So everything about the new distillery is designed to be energy efficient, low impact on the environment. But ultimately, what it means is even if you build a new distillery back in the same spot, it's not the same still, it's not the same equipment. There will be differences in the distillate, even if you use the same same recipe, the same ingredients, right? Um as a guy who got big into learning how to cook barbecue, I can watch the YouTube video, um, but I can't necessarily replicate the barbecue, right? Like it takes some time to get things kind of tweaked in, and ultimately they will never get back to this. So, not surprising, the moment a distillery announces that they're mothballing or closing, um, and the distillery moves from an active producer to what they refer to as a lost distillery or dead in our case, um, the value of their product skyrockets. And so, what you'll see is anybody that has anything spay that would have been distilled prior to 2024 is going to be much more sought after and collected because it's unavailable to get anymore, even though that there will be new product after a short hiatus of nothing being available while they rebuilt the 2026, sometime this year when they begin to run the new stills, they'll start dumping that into barrels, and then at some point that will come out and it will have the same label, the same name, or at least that's their intent as of today. Ten years from now, who knows what they decide, right? So that's what makes this my death bottle for tonight. I like it. Also, I also had a little bit of a hint of where you were going, and I wanted to make sure I picked something that was bourbon-esque, knowing that you were gonna pick a bourbon. I didn't want to do anything that was too overpowering because it wouldn't make sense to do an episode on death in Texas and start with Texas, right? I had to start at death, so I had to be somewhat careful about what I picked. And then I'll also say um finding a dis a bottle from a distillery that's closed is pretty tough. Um, I I already had this bottle. Um, everyone who's ever watched an episode, there's a little spot right back here. You can just see the top, but it's been there the whole time. Uh, but I I said, well, I hate to pick the one I already have. Let's go see what else I can find. And I spent several hours in various stores looking for bottles from closed distilleries, and ultimately came back and picked the one off my shelf because I couldn't find any. Um, that was a that was a tough ask on a few days' notice. If I had had weeks to track it down, maybe it would have been different.

Gavin 6:56

You know, what comes to mind are like orphan barrel uh bottles. Those those could have been another one lost.

Aaron 7:05

One of the parts of what they do in orphan barrel is that they're purchasing from closed or distilleries that have gone through some sort of change and they don't, their new product doesn't match the old, and so they're just trying to figure out how to move old without causing brand confusion between the products. So that makes some sense. Um, I'll say one of the problems with a closed distillery is the dynamic in my own mind that says if they make great stuff, they wouldn't have closed. Right? I'm it's not a comment about this whiskey. I haven't had a sip yet. Um but you can't help but think if they were making great stuff, it wouldn't have closed. So the idea that because it's no longer open, its whiskey is now more valuable than it was previous. Well, why wasn't it more valuable to begin with when they were actually producing?

Gavin 8:03

It's a fair question. It's just like uh a baseball card, right? Or a sporting memorabilia. Yeah, it's it's worth something when they're alive, but after they pass away, it's the best time to sell. Yes. Right?

Aaron 8:17

Right? There's a little bit of that. While we sit here and sniff, sip, and savor. Uh the premise of tonight's episode is that this is the last episode we get to tell everybody before they file their taxes. So I I think two things are at play here. One, should you be writing a sizable check to the federal government next Wednesday? Our condolences. We're terribly sorry. Maybe need some risky to perhaps tonight is a good night to drown your sorrows. Uh, should you be one of the lucky ones who is getting taxes back um next Wednesday? Congratulations. Perhaps one of these bottles would be a perfect way to spend that tax return.

Gavin 9:08

Your local bottle shop would really enjoy your visit. So either way.

Aaron 9:13

So we began dis discussing what we all were going to talk about tonight, and I gave Gavin the task. Um, I got to be Mr. Professor through uh the Whiskeys of the World series. And so I said, Gavin, you get to do a lot of them back mundane research on this episode. And so I gave Gavin the the challenge of understanding the history of taxation in the United States, and I left it relatively open-ended and in a Gavin way. Gavin took it differently than I had originally thought, which is awesome because that means that means everything we're about to hear. I'm also hearing it for the first time because it's nothing like the things I went and looked up. So I think it's always best to start at the beginning. Gavin, if you go back and look at the beginning of the United States, it the revolution all began at the Boston Tea Party, which was a protest, an uprising uh that occurred over taxation on tea. And if my memory serves right, it was like one quarter of one percent. Like it was a paltry taxation in the grand scheme of things when we look back now. So my question, it's a turkey taxation. Sorry. My question is, my question is, if the United States founded itself on the idea of we don't want even such a minuscule tax on something like tea, how the hell did we find ourselves at a point where April 15th is a date known in infamy every year where we all pay, I'll say, copious amounts to the federal government or state government or city government. Who all you have to pay taxes to?

Gavin 11:05

That's that's a great question. And I wish I had an answer for you.

Aaron 11:08

No, no, no, no. You were supposed to have an answer.

Gavin 11:12

Um, so uh I want us to picture this, right? All right, so I have to close your eyes like like a dream bubble up here.

Aaron 11:20

I'll try to figure out how to make the world go hazy for a second.

Gavin 11:24

Picture this, right? It's the late 1700s, fresh off the American Revolution. We just won. We just won. American won its independence.

Aaron 11:34

USA. USA. I get excited.

Gavin 11:37

Um the USA quickly, almost immediately, realized that it was deadass broke.

Aaron 11:47

Yeah, we we owed a lot of money to people. So we actually owed money to people who had bigger armies and stuff than us, and that without their help, we wouldn't have won. And they then wanted their money, I think.

Gavin 12:02

Yeah, I think so. It's a fair request. It's a fair, right? Um it's kind of like uh an old gangster movie.

Aaron 12:08

Yeah, no, someone's gonna come start busting kneecaps everything right after it.

Gavin 12:12

Uh so what did the US government do? Well, they they asked themselves, how do we get money? Right? Yeah, so you start taxing them. You start taxing people, right? And what do you tax? The one thing that everybody absolutely loves. Something you can't live without. Something you can't live without. Whiskey. Oh, I thought it was gonna be glass. Or I mean they could have. I bet they I bet they did.

Aaron 12:38

I bet actually, I believe I'd have to go back and check the timeline. But I believe the first bottled bourbon wasn't two years later. That's right. This would have been barrels of whiskey they were taxing.

Gavin 12:50

Barrels, and that's where people would bring like the pubs would have a barrel, barrel inside, right? Yeah. So this is a bold strategy right off the bat, right?

Aaron 13:01

I mean, we are they ran on a platform of no taxation without without representation. I get that, right? But the idea was we don't want taxes, and then as soon as we won, the government said, Yeah, we're gonna have to have taxes. So we're not it feels government-esque right.

Gavin 13:15

We're not sending it over the you know, across the pond to the king. Stays here, stays stays.

Aaron 13:19

Except for we got to pay all the people that we owe money to in Europe, exactly.

Gavin 13:23

Okay, so the uh that really started in 1791, right? So boom, the whiskey tax, and it was the first excise tax of its kind as part of the US. So, as one could imagine, the frontier farmers of its time weren't too thrilled.

Aaron 13:45

Yeah, I I think chapped their butts, might be an effective whiskey.

Gavin 13:49

Their ars, right?

Aaron 13:50

It probably didn't say butts back then, but yeah.

Gavin 13:53

Yeah. Because whiskey was kind of the Venmo of its time, right? I mean, you used it to buy chickens, or you know, there was trades that went back and forth.

Aaron 14:03

Whiskey was this would have been a time at which like the printed dollar didn't really mean anything. Like we we were still in our fledgling stage trying to get an economy put together. Uh yeah, everybody barnered. I I I miss those days.

Gavin 14:20

Wouldn't it be so much easier if we just paid for everything in whiskey? Yeah, that'd be great. I'd love that.

Aaron 14:26

My show expensive this hobby would be.

Gavin 14:28

Yeah, it would be right. Um so as you do when that happens, you start a rebellion. Yep. Right. It's kind of our thing. It's what you do. I mean, rebellion is as American as American gets. Yeah.

Aaron 14:43

American pie is the second most American thing.

Gavin 14:46

Yeah. Rebellion's number one. Yeah, right. Uh, and so this rebellion was not your keyboard warriors of today, it was actual pitchforks. I mean, it was it was a full-fledged, I think, 500-person rebellion um in the Northeast. Yeah.

Aaron 15:06

If if properly done, a 500 person rebellion can have quite an impact at the time.

Gavin 15:11

So um, this is also where Mr. George, the George Washington shows up. Right? He shows up with a troop of about 13,000 people. That's more than 500. I'm here to help with the math. Right. Uh I'm here for you. And so he came with an attitude and says, All right, y'all, y'all gonna pay these taxes or what? Right. Yeah. So still to this day, that is the only time that a US sitting president came out personally and led troops in led troops in. Well, it's pretty interesting, right? Against ourselves. Against ourselves. So we haven't come as far as we thought.

Aaron 16:00

That's a good point. That's just a little tidbit of so you mentioned excise tax on that. Yes. I I think as part of what I feel like we do here on the Noble Drama is we try to take big things or complex things and break them down into simpler chunks to understand it. I don't know as if I could give a definition of excise tax, but which tells me somebody out there doesn't know what that is either. So explain to us what is an excise tax? What like why is that different than any other tax for that matter?

Gavin 16:31

The the best way to explain it in a very short, concise uh way is it's the episode's only an hour, so it's a syntax.

Aaron 16:40

Oh.

Gavin 16:42

So think about things like whiskey and tobacco, kind of things that people might perceive to two of my favorite scents. Right. Um I can think of another thing here.

Aaron 16:58

That's why they tax us.

Gavin 16:59

But essentially it's excise tax, it's things that um could be people perceive as harmful or or thereof, and and so it's it's a tax on those specific items.

Aaron 17:11

Yeah, I think the premise here being that you will tax the things that are bad for you because we know you're gonna do them anyways. And if we taxed, if they started taxing carrots, I'd stop eating carrots. But if they tax whiskey, I'm like, well, just gonna have to pay more for whiskey. Yeah, it's all there's done. Right. So you know, yeah. But how does that work now, right? Like, I mean, I know I know this was late 1700s, early 1800s taxation. Like, where how did we get to where we are now?

Gavin 17:36

So many years, many moons, a month of Sundays, all of those things. Basically, a hundred years later, um we find ourselves, or over a hundred years later, we find ourselves in um 1913, where the 16th amendment was ratified. Okay, so the 16th Amendment granted Congress the power to levy an income tax without allocating to specific states based on population. So prior to 1913, it was tariffs and excise taxes um that were being levied.

Aaron 18:27

Tariff being the taxation of goods coming in or out of the country, excise being the tax on the sinful things inside the country. This is the first how much you make defines how much you make.

Gavin 18:38

And many folks um thought it was very unfair because it put more burden on lower income families and citizens than it did on more wealthier people.

Aaron 18:51

So we st there's a still a big chunk of the population that feels exactly that way now.

Gavin 18:56

We're still going through it. I mean, that was 1913 when um the 16th Amendment was ratified. So we are a hundred years past that, right? And we're still dealing with some of the same things.

Aaron 19:09

Uh my dad used to always tell me it's uh as much as you want to bitch about income tax, it at least you have income to pay tax on. Yeah. Right? It's a blessing and a curse all at the same time. Right. So that was a bit of a brief history. All right. No, no, it's enough taxation talk, kind of where we're at. I mean, we're trying we're trying to keep this uplifting and light and on the death bottle. The death bottle and us talking about taxes is kind of bringing us down. All right, let's talk a little bit about the whiskey. Yeah, I like it. So on the nose, my bottle, you have to you have to talk first. Uh, what do you get all over the nose on this one?

Gavin 19:50

All over the nose. This to me is um apple. I think the the first thing that hit me was apple juice. Like Seneca. Think think back when you were a kid. Seneca glass bottle of apple juice.

Aaron 20:06

Yeah. I didn't I didn't have Seneca when I was a kid. We had the um the little cardboard wax box cardboard box of apple juice.

Gavin 20:14

Yeah. Um like this is essentially Seneca apple juice.

Aaron 20:19

Now I mean, yeah, I see apple. Um I think to me, the nose is a little floral on the fruity side. Um I might say it's tastes like the smell of walking through an apple orchard. I know I know that's a kind of a splitting of hairs. I I I wrote down fruity, I had written down apple, um, I had written down floral. Um, I even wrote down honey. I get a bit of honey note. Um yeah, the nose the nose is quite complex, but yet very light at the same time.

Gavin 20:59

I'll agree with that. Um, I also added um there's some butteriness to the nose, and then also grape. I think I there's a bit of um grape, especially after taking a sip of it. Green grape.

Aaron 21:14

Yeah, not not red grape, right? It it doesn't have that, like when you think grape juice, we're not talking Welches. Um, classic Concord grape juice. No, no, like that. Yeah, like that white grape juice.

Gavin 21:26

Um like communion grape juice.

Aaron 21:29

No, you wait. You had a church that used white grape juice? Yeah. Oh, good lord.

Gavin 21:35

It looked just like that, actually.

Aaron 21:36

Oh my god. You Oklahomans did everything. Um, so I for me as as a as a bit of a barbecue lover, we use white grape juice when we when you take a thick sauce and create a mop or a dip or a glaze, right? Um, because it doesn't have a really pronounced flavor that throws things off, but certainly helps dilute things down, but doesn't Water it down like water would. Um yeah, I get some of that. No, I I'm with you on all of that. Does now on the on the palate is it stay there or does it on the palate?

Gavin 22:13

I put um I put like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I think the grape still shows up. Um they're it's not really like peanut butter, but you're tasting concrete grape, is what you're saying, though.

Aaron 22:29

Yeah, like you're tasting red grape.

Gavin 22:30

Yeah. Um and I think that butteriness that I felt like I got on the nose, maybe that's a bit more of kind of that peanut butter um on the palate. And then I thought it was floral. So I I 100% agree. I think there's some flowery and some floral notes to it on the on the palate.

Aaron 22:49

On the palate, this reminds me of a potent crisp white wine, right? It's got that apple, pear kind of sweetnesses. Um, it's got that tartness and acidity that you think of as kind of that fresh fruit kind of vibe. Um, yeah, again, I think there's complexity there, but none of it is big, dark, heavy complexity. It's still very, very light all the way through. I agree with that. And on the finish, are you are you I hate to sound redundant, but is it is it still carrying through? Like, are you still getting grape through out into the finish?

Gavin 23:26

Yeah, I did. I did. I think it's uh it's it's soft. Um it's soft, but I think the more it sets on the palette, on the mid to back palette, I think there is a slight spice to it. But again, we've talked about in previous episodes where um it may not be the ABV, but you may just be more comfortable letting it set and swirl. I've kind of swirled this one a little bit. And so I do feel like there's a little bit of spice to it.

Aaron 23:58

I I I thought overall, when we talk about finishes, right? Like the length of finish always is a question. This one's on the shorter end of that spectrum, right? This one, this one kind of runs through pretty quick. Um, I'll say here on the finishes where I got the buttery, creamy note. Um, not that it was oily or slick uh tasting, but like it reminds me of like a buttercream icing, like that kind of stuff going on on the finish. Um overall, I I think it's we we make jokes about breakfast scotches. Like this fits that bill. Like this is a light, crisp, refreshing. This is a warm day whiskey. Yeah. Um this is uh it's not quite noon yet, but it really doesn't taste like an afternoon whiskey that tastes like a morning whiskey. Um yeah. Overall, I I'm enjoying this one. Yeah. Um I we get to this point every time where we have to start deciding numbers. So Gavin, do you do you have a number? I have a number. I'm I'm on it tonight. I have my number. No, now I have to I have to write tell them tell them at home your number, and I'll think about it.

Gavin 25:12

I'll do one or two above his.

Aaron 25:14

Uh I did 79. I was already uh I before he said it, hand was off the pen. I just I just pin down. I looked pin down. Um sorry 79.

Gavin 25:26

Why 79? 79. Um, I think it's um it is it is a great it's a great bottle. I'm I'm enjoying it. Uh it's something that I may have something similar on the shelf, or maybe I want a little bit more punch to it. Uh but I I am enjoying it, so 79 for me.

Aaron 25:49

Yeah, so I I think I think I'm in a similar range that like this is not a oh wow bottle, but yet I really enjoy it. Right. Um I'm putting this at an 82. Um, I think this makes the collection because I think collections need to have a variety of things. Um, so whether it's this bottle or another bottle, like you you need a light, sweet, fruity, floral-y single malt in your collection, in my opinion. And I think this fits that bill perfectly. All right. Um, so not necessarily my favorite go-to bottle, but I I I understand the beauty of what this is. Um, this also feels like the kind of bottle that if you're used to drinking bourbons and you like that lighter, sweeter kind of bourbon, especially maybe weeded bourbons, and you're making the jump into scotch. I think this would be a tasty one to make that jump with.

Gavin 26:43

Yeah. Now that you say that, I think that that's a really good explanation. Are you changing your number? Are you staying in the side? I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna stay the same. Because I wrote it in pen.

Aaron 26:53

Just can't do this, can't put the big X on. All right. 79 for Gavin, 82 for me. The spay, Trutina. If you can get your hands on it, highly recommend it. Yeah, good but good luck. They haven't made it in a couple years. I don't, I don't they haven't made new in a couple years. They may still be releasing.

Gavin 27:13

What you need to just go to your buddy's house that has some old bottles. Yeah. And you might find one on the back show. Down on the down near the floor. Down down down near the floor. If I could actually talk tonight. So, with that being said, um, we are gonna take an intermission. We're gonna finish these glasses, or I am, because Aaron already did. Oh, he did. Uh, and we've got another special, really fun um announcement for y'all. See you in a minute.

Aaron 27:45

For the last couple weeks, we've been teasing a big announcement coming. That's right. The Noble Dram has a barrel pick.

Gavin 27:52

But we don't have asked anything here. Not just one barrel pick, we got two. Larseny, barrel-proof, and Elijah Craig, barrel-proof.

Aaron 28:01

We want to give a special thanks to the guys at MR Liquor here in Northwest Houston that helped make these barrel picks possible.

Gavin 28:08

With them, we've reserved a limited number of each barrel pick for you, our Noble Listeners.

Aaron 28:14

For everyone who goes online, reserves a bottle before they go on sale to the general public. You get $10 off a bottle.

Gavin 28:23

Follow the link down below in the comments to reserve each one of these bottles.

Aaron 28:28

And don't miss a chance to enjoy two delicious drinks. Cheers. All right, welcome back, everybody. Uh, we certainly hope you race out in the links below, get you guys each a bottle. There is nothing we would like more than to sell out all of the pre-reservations uh for all of these bottles. Because we're huge sellouts, and we'd love to be able to do that. No, nothing would make me make me happier than being a sellout. All right. All right. My favorite part of every episode. It's where Gavin gives me whiskey. All right. That and I'm out.

Gavin 29:13

All right. Well, we'll set these to the side here.

Aaron 29:16

So I think that answers our question is what we're toasting the end of the episode with. I'm out. I'm out. So I'm gonna keep that glass within arm's reach just in case I need to pull it back out. I I get it. All right.

Gavin 29:29

What is what is the Texas bottle now? The Texas bottle tonight is still Austin's bottle in bond. Blue corn bourbon whiskey.

Aaron 29:41

I like the way blue corn bourbon rolls off the tub. Right. Same. May I? You shall.

Gavin 29:49

All right. So got it where we were. Yeah. You know, it's my MO. It's my shtick. Uh, so blue corn bourbon whiskey from still Austin. This is bottle and bond. Can you tell us what proof this is?

Aaron 30:06

I I do know this one. Yeah. Bottled and bond suggests 100 proof. 100 proof.

Gavin 30:12

Or for the metric lovers. 50% ABV. Uh, this is their winter 2025 edition. Okay. They uh, or I say they, this is aged at least six years. The mash bill, 26% blue corn. That makes sense, 25% white corn, 44% rye. Yeah. Welcome to the rye show. And 5% malted barley.

Aaron 30:49

Oh, just a minuscule amount of molten barley.

Gavin 30:52

So it's all right. We got plenty of malted barley. I am expecting this to get us a little fire in our mouth a little bit. Yeah.

Aaron 31:02

I don't I don't want to get I don't want to get into what's in the glasses till we've had a chance to kind of delve further. Yeah, for sure. Delve further. Um, so do we do we know do we know an aging on this one or no? At least six years. Oh, okay. So this is a little longer than I expected. Yeah, right. So bottled and bond says at least four. My memory sorts, right?

Gavin 31:22

Yeah. So we're we're at least six. I don't know um kind of what all the range of age that went into this, um, but we're at least six years. Still Austin, as you guessed it, is in Texas, right? Yeah, it would make sense. It would make like it's it's not in Waco. It's not in Waco.

Aaron 31:46

It could be. I mean, no. Then it would be still Waco.

Gavin 31:50

Still Waco.

Aaron 31:51

Yeah. I that the question was, was there did there used to be an Austin distillery? And then people are like, I thought they moved. And they're like, nope, still Austin. Still, still Austin.

Gavin 32:04

Right.

Aaron 32:04

I'm assuming that's a reference to the still in the distillery.

Gavin 32:10

Or that it's just a still.

Aaron 32:12

It's just a quiet part of town.

Gavin 32:14

Yeah.

Aaron 32:15

Maybe. I've been there. It doesn't strike me as a quiet part of town.

Gavin 32:20

So still Austin uh kind of started being conceived back in uh 2013. So in 2013, uh the Texas State regulations had a big change and essentially granted craft distillers the ability to be able to have direct to consumer sales. So they were able to open tasting rooms and and be able to sell products straight from a huge paradigm shift. Huge, right? So at that time, um, that year, the founders Chris and Cleveland Seals spent a year or they they started thinking about this, and they spent a year going around and and doing a bunch of research and studying different distilleries and all those fun things um to decide if they really wanted to do this based on the new regulations and rules for the city of Texas. So in 2014, the company broke ground on their brand new state-of-the-art distillery. Um, in September of 2017, uh, that's when the tasting room opened. Um, their mission was really a grain-to-glass mentality. So they wanted like 100% Texas grown grains as a part of their bash bills. Um, one of their iconic features, I would say, just as a distillery, is they have a 42-foot custom copper column still, which is the first of its kind that was actually shipped from Scotland. So you get you can find distilleries in the US that have Scotland-made kind of copper pot stills, but a column still, kind of less likely to find that out and about. So uh still Austin kind of owns that kind of prestige of the first kind of custom column still.

Aaron 34:24

I had the good fortune of putting my eyes on the thing. It is quite beautiful. She's beautiful, ain't she? She's a butte club.

Gavin 34:30

She's a butte. She's a butte. Um, so a couple things to to mention also about still Austin is they have two Titans that help run the facility. And that is Nancy Fraley, the master blender, also quote unquote the nose, as far as um, you know, I think some people consider um a certain Scottish gentleman as the nose, but in the US, we have our own, uh, and that's Nancy Fraley. Are you talking about Pinocchio? Yeah, yeah. I get too right. And then uh John uh Shreple is the head distiller. Um and so those two kind of round out, kind of heading the team there. And uh so still Austin kind of had this really good fortune of bringing in these kind of titans in the industry to help um kind of master the the I'd say narrow Texas whiskey market. Come. Texas, as we've talked about in previous episodes, has when you think about like Scottish regions, Texas kind of has that stigma in the bourbon world, right? Because of our aging that happens here in Texas, we have a kind of that rapid aging. We've talked about it in um other countries on our our whiskies of the world, where those kind of subtropical or humid regions have a rapid aging. Texas kind of has that same uh style.

Aaron 36:10

Yeah, I I mean think just in now, obviously, new barrels, re refilled barrels, but in this dynamic, this is 10 years, and you could read the newspaper through it. Right. And in six years, it's darker than every pair of sunglasses, I think.

Gavin 36:30

Right, right. So, as uh just kind of let me get to to sipping and sniffing a little bit here. We've talked a lot about taxation. Well, it is the tax day episode, right? It makes sense.

Aaron 36:45

So I got a couple questions for you. Okay. Um, this is where I get to tell you about all of my yeah, this is where the professor gets to come back, put your put your hat and gown on, and um, I feel like I should put like the crown with the tassel and the whole bit. What color would whiskey expert be? Like engineering was an orange tassel and different different colleges of different colors. I don't know what color a whiskey tassel would be. Tan? Brown? Brown?

Gavin 37:16

All right, maybe honey. All right, so I want to know if you can tell us basically an overview of the three-tiered system. When we talk about whiskey, I hear a lot about the three-tiered system, and I think there's a little bit of funness that happens. Can you give us a background on that?

Aaron 37:41

Yeah, I don't know about your definition of fun, but I can certainly talk about the three-tier system. So um, the three-tier system really breaks down into ironically, three tiers. Um, it makes sense. I think that's where it got its name. So the you have the first tier is producer, right? That could be either a distillery, it could be a blender or a rectifier, right? Somebody who's who's creating bottles of other people's distillate, independent bottlers or importers for that matter. Anybody who brings the spirit in or produces the spirit. That represents tier number one. Tier number two is the distributor or wholesaler. They're the ones who purchased from the manufacturer or the the producer, then warehouse, distribute, and market, right? They're the salesmanship in that system. Then they then turn to the and sell that to the third tier, which is the retailers. And in the world of taxation, there's tax at every position. Holy smokes. So there is tax that is paid by the distillery for producing whiskey. There is also tax that is paid based upon the age of the barrel. We talked a little bit about in our bottle to bond that one of the perks of a bonded warehouse, because it's government run, you don't have to pay tax every year. You only have to pay tax when you take it out. But you do pay tax based upon how long it had been in the barrel in the warehouse. But the producers pay tax, they then turn and hand that whiskey off in bottles to the wholesalers to then distribute. It is the wholesaler's responsibility to pay all of the necessary federal, state, local, municipality, whatever tiers, excise taxes. That is handled by the wholesalers. Then, once it shows up on the shelf at your local store and you pay for it in Texas, like I believe most states, you then pay sales tax on the purchase transaction, just like you do any other good or service that you pay for at the final bill of sale. So we get production tax, we get distribution and handling tax, and then we then get sales tax at the end. So there's quite a bit of taxation that occurs. So the thought of the three-tier system actually didn't arrive until post-prohibition. One of the problems pre-prohibition was the concern over quality and um safety of products that were making it onto shelves. And there was no guarantees, and there was a very difficult way to track who had produced what, where had it come from, how it had gotten to the retailer, because it was the wild west. Additionally, who was supposed to be paying tax, right? Like that was another part. And so the thought was when prohibition um was repealed and they created a new system, they said, okay, we'll come up with a way in which there's very clear responsibilities of who is to pay what tax, such that the federal government can get their appropriate funds from it. Because the government doesn't do anything without figuring out a way to take a cut. The ironic twist is the three-tier system is not a federally mandated system. It was proposed at the federal level, and then every state or jurisdiction, whether that be the county or the municipality or the state in general, was allowed to then adopt their own system. All of the 50 states use a three-tiered system in some way, shape, or form. There is some subtle differences. Um but just understand, not a federal system that is in place, it's a state-to-state system. So the rules in Texas are different than the rules in Oklahoma or Kansas or wherever else. Um, so one of the first caveats in most states is that you are not allowed to have ownership in more than one tier. So if you own a retail store, you cannot then also own a portion or all of a wholesaler. The intent there is trying to keep you from monopolizing the industry, right? A vertical. Um that's kind of where the three-tier system, kind of where it came from, what it is, how it's set up.

Gavin 42:32

Let me ask a question. Okay. So what would be like a some pros or cons of a three-tiered system? Because thinking about it for me as the consumer, somebody that enjoys whiskey, I feel like I'm paying tax three times at that point.

Aaron 42:48

Absolutely. So are there pros to this? Uh yeah. So I think with any government legislation, right, there's a this is what we want to have happen because of it, and then there's a whole set of what actually happens and not what they wanted to happen. So at first, one of the big problems pre-prohibition was in monopolies, in which a manufacturer would make whiskey, then turn and sell it themselves. And there was never a period in which anybody from the outside got to oversee that. And so monopolies in the in the whiskey industry were a real problem because company would come in, they'd slash prices, undercut the competition, then buy out their distilleries, and then immediately raise prices. And then when there wasn't effective competition in the market, they could set price at wherever they wanted. So you had a lot of that kind of stuff going on. So the idea was if I'm the wholesaler and any given producer starts to get too expensive, uh, we'll we'll move different product. Um, and then what the retailers want, they don't have to buy everything the wholesaler has. At least that was the intent, right? Um So obviously, the other major intent for the federal government was this is an effective way to collect taxes, right? So let's not belittle the fact that the three-tier system was really set up in an effort to provide effective taxation of whiskey. The other thought was that it gives them a clear chain. Whiskey is bought from these guys, it is warehoused in this location, then it is distributed these places, whether that be bars or restaurants. And so if there was a problem, something was found to be bad or harmful or something had been added, they could easily track that trail because there was a proper documentation. If your bar just miraculously had unlabeled bottles setting on it because he had a guy who worked at a distributor or at a distillery, like there was no way to effectively know what had happened. Also, understanding that part of the fear coming out of prohibition was all of the horrible things that happened during prohibition, in which people would water down and mix in sub-fear, inferior or harmful stuff to their whiskey in an effort to stretch it, right? So they're trying to control as much of that stuff as possible. Now, the truth of the matter is pros and cons, right? Once I create a three-tier system, the distributor, sorry, the producer needs to make profit. There's profit there, there's also taxation there. Then they that product goes to a wholesaler. That wholesaler needs to make profit to stay in business. So there's a profit there. There's also excise tax there. Then that bottle makes it onto the retail shelf. Well, the retailer needs to cover his cost and overhead. So there's a markup there, his profit. There's sales tax. So it can be sometimes two to three times the cost by the time it gets to the end of the line as it did when it left the distillery. Um, so there is cost associated with it. So that's probably the first big downside. Number two, go back to pros and cons. The thought was if a wholesaler can then bring in lots of different brands, he is not beholden to what the producer makes, right? He can buy from multiple producers and then provide the local retailer an opportunity to purchase things. So the thought was this gives them a large market in which to small businesses, small distilleries to then make it onto the shelves. The truth of the matter is now the wholesaler becomes that pinch point because he is ultimately the person who runs ads and is the sales force creating demand in a market if they decide to shelf a brand. Um, that brand really struggles to find its way onto retail shelves. Um, even to the point that some wholesalers will bid on the rights to import a producer and then don't actually purchase from it, but they own the rights to it so nobody else can sell it as competition to them. So it has moved the pinch point or the the the monopolizing strategy from the distillery down to the the wholesaler. And probably the biggest problem with three-tier, you actually mentioned it a little bit with Still Austin. It prevents a distillery from selling to an end user because that literally circumvents the entire three-tier system. So as soon as a distillery opens, this is what we'd love to do is have a tasting room in which we sell bottles. The wholesalers and the other retailers in the market immediately say, no, no, no, no, no, no. The law says you have to do it through us. So most distilleries in which you go to and purchase a bottle. There's a reason you go into a separate gift shop. The gift shop is owned independent of the distillery, and the gift shop has to purchase the bottles they sell from the wholesaler. That's why distillery, bottles at the distillery, the same price as you can get them anywhere else, right? Because it's gone through the same channels. It just happens to be at the distillery that you purchased it, but you still bought it through the the three-tiered channel. So it also has created a little bit of complexity because a lot of these contracts between producers and distributors are territorial specific. So I don't want you being able to ship whiskey from Kentucky into Texas because I have the rights to sell in Kentucky or that in Texas, not you. So if you do, it's got to come through me. And that like you get into a lot of that kind of stuff, which ultimately hinders some smaller distilleries that can't afford a significant amount of expenditure and sales in order to get to market. So some of the pros actually ended up being some of the cons, right? The kind of the the way things work.

Gavin 49:15

So you I want to touch on something that you mentioned. You mentioned um states having maybe different, or depending on the state, it may be a little different.

Aaron 49:28

Absolutely. Absolutely. There there are there are states which we refer to as open states, right? And there are states we refer to as control states, which actually throw another monkey wrench into the three-tier system, um, that I think probably is worth mentioning, right? Um, so in a in an open state, Texas happens to be an open state, wholesalers buy direct from uh producers and sell to the retailers. And what makes it to the market is controlled by the wholesalers bringing stuff in and reselling. There are control states. The one that jumps to mind, I have family that live in Utah. Utah is run by the ABC, the Alcohol Bureau Commission, um, or beverage commission, I'm sorry. In that state, the wholesaler is the state, it is a state-run agency. And so the thought there was the state can then control, in the world of fairness, um, can control what is available to which retailers, so that way there isn't favoritism played. And the truth of the matter is we that does exist in an open state, right? Um, our local bottle shop, he often laments about the fact that there are bottles that you see available on big box retailers that when he calls the distributors, they say they're not available yet. Not the way the letter of the law is written, right? The letter of the law says that if he wants to buy it and they want to buy it, they should both have that opportunity. But the reality is first come, first dibs, right? And they buy it all. Well, if we had more, you could buy it, but we don't have any more. They already bought it all. Um, that kind of stuff plays. When we get into allocation talk, the idea of points that as a retailer, you've bought so much of this distillery's products, which means you're not eligible to buy other stuff. Like that is again some sort of structured way in which limits the free market uh of movement of products. The idea here is in a state-run or a controlled state, the state manipulates some of that to try to control it in the name of fairness and equity. Quite often, control states also have minimum pricing, maximum pricing. Um, what tends to happen in control states is because things become a little bit more available uh on a wider range without point systems and you can't charge secondary prices. You can find deals on really good bottles. The problem is they're very difficult to get a hold of. Or some states, I believe Virginia is an example, they actually run lotteries for allocated stuff. And you'll purchase it through a retailer, but you enter the lottery at the state, and when you win, then they ship it to your retailer and you can go pick it up, or you go pick it up from one of their facilities. It's not uncommon for some states to say, well, spirits are state controlled, but beer and wine are not. So, like every state is a little different. Yours might be different. Um, I'm not gonna suggest you drive across the state line because it gets into a whole bunch of different rules. It's what I was supposed to get into, but yeah, if you live close to a border, you know which state gives you a better option at getting things. So um there's a there's there's ways to play this um in an effort to try to get what you want uh with the best deal possible. Is there a right system? No, neither of them are perfect. Um, the three-tier system has distinct drawbacks and but does have advantages, right? Um, so there's a little bit of you take the good with the bad. As you do.

Gavin 53:14

Yeah, as you do, right?

Aaron 53:16

All right, I want to talk whiskey though. Yeah, sorry, sorry. The thought when we started the episode is that we wanted to talk about taxation, right? Because it was tax week and and that made sense. And that kind of pushed us into well, you can't really talk taxation without understanding what the three-tier system was. And so that's where the the tears and taxation conversation kind of came from.

Gavin 53:34

Tears and taxation.

Aaron 53:36

Actually, taxation normally causes tears, but it's a different spoke. I'm glad you caught on where I was going. Yeah, that's you know, I remember when I used to get taxes back, and I was like, man, this is amazing. And then somebody pointed out, you know, that was your money all along. Yep. And you're like, you should figure out how to not pay taxes, um, or get to a point where you don't get a refund because I mean you got it all along, and I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna figure out a way to pay taxes every year. It still makes me sad to have to cut a check.

Gavin 54:01

Yeah, every yeah, I I agree. I agree.

Aaron 54:04

All right.

Gavin 54:05

Back to the whiskey.

Aaron 54:08

You've done a lot of you couldn't have come up with two different bottles. Yeah, 100%. These are 100% all the way across the spectrum from each other.

Gavin 54:19

I mean, one being scotch and one being bourbon.

Aaron 54:23

But there there were things about this scotch that wasn't prototypical scotch, but hinted a little in the bourbon world. And so there was there was a chance that your bourbon kind of like they they were kissing cousins, so to speak. No, not at all. No, not at all.

Gavin 54:41

And I'm glad we did it in the order that we did. I mean, yes, proof points. This is a little wider, not too much. I was actually worried about this. Were you?

Aaron 54:50

Well, in general, you tend to start with sweeter and move towards spicy bolder. Yeah, uh, my fear was that the bourbon would be the sweet one and the scotch would be the bold. Uh exact opposite in this instance. Nope. Um, yeah, so I mean, right off the bat, you look at it and you see dark. And so it is not surprising when you put your nose in that glass. It is dark caramel, it is brown sugar, there is charred oakiness all over the nose of this. Um, I have historically been uh hard on Texas whiskies. That's the stigma we've been talking about a little bit. I'll say, in my mind, justifiably rightly so, right? Um that you are either young and appropriately oaked, or mature and horribly overoaked. Um, this one really flirts with that line and that balance between the two. I don't think it noses young. There is a youthfulness in it, but not quite young. There is an oakiness in this, but I think it is really well balanced with the caramel and the and the the sugary bits to it, so it's not just dry oak. It doesn't taste like an off-toothpick.

Gavin 56:15

So on the nose, I think there's a buttercream icing kind of thing that happens. I think the rye shows up um being uh 44% rye. I think that that spice kind of comes out even on the nose. Um I think there's a syrupy kind of note to it as well. Like um, I wanna I wanna we we talk about breakfast scotch and we don't really talk about breakfast bourbon so much.

Aaron 56:53

It rolls off the tongue a lot, but this this has got a bit of like you put honey and maple syrup in a in a saucepan and then boiled it down. Like it is much more aromatically punchy. I don't know if that's the right way to word that, but it's got a lot more going on on the nose, but it feels like a much more compressed version of more traditional, I'll still say dark sweetness, but it has really been fortified.

Gavin 57:28

Yeah, I could I could trail, I could track with that or trail with it. Um on the palate, do you think it tracks?

Aaron 57:36

I so we've all had a creme brulee in which the crust on the top, not the custard, but the crust on the top, got the torch just a little bit too long, right? It has really gotten dark. This has got that dark flirting with the edge of burnt sugar kind of thing on the palate. You said buttercream. I'm not getting a creaminess to this. I I expected with this much oak on the nose, there to be heavy vanilla notes on here, but I don't know if I get a ton of vanilla. It's there, but that kind of dark sugar, um, charred sugar note is is the most prominent flavor on the palette for sure.

Gavin 58:19

I think there's some caramel chew to it. Um I also put pecan, and I think it's like a pecan pie where you get that crust and you get that um caramelization, kind of that front top part of a pecan pie.

Aaron 58:43

I think that's it's kind of where I'm sitting on the palette. Like that that that point on a pecan pie where the crust and the goo have come together and that thin little ribbon of goo has really dried out. That's like almost chewy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I get you there. Um, on the finish, are you thinking? What are you thinking? So the the spay was incredibly short compared to still offs, and that finish really carries. Um I I you're flirting with the medium long to long kind of range in my mind. Um I'll say there is a moment in the finish that you said pecan, and it it it's the sharp kind of almost bitterness of a pecan that that shows up relatively early in the finish, but it fades quickly, and then like the soft sweetness comes roaring back. Um, like even still, as we sit here, I'm I'm several seconds after finishing a sip. That the sweetness really, really carries in that finish. That's nice. Yeah. I I I'd say the finish might be my favorite part of it, just because it it's got a little story to tell as it goes along. As they all do. No, like the space finish didn't. This the space finish, I like not to harp on it, but it was it was a repeat of what we'd had, right? Like the the still Austin, I mean the sweetness was there, but this is different than it was before. This is a little softer, milder sweetness. Um, some of the the oak char that burnt wood kind of thing is gone by the finish. You got that kind of sharp pecan thing, and then it yeah, like if you ate the pecans off the top of the pecan pie, so there's just a little bit of goo stuck to them, but like not the whole amount of goo. Um, yeah, I like yeah.

Gavin 1:00:45

Uh I I I agree with everything you said. I think it's a medium to long finish. Um originally before the pecan showed up for me, there was like a cheriness, and so I put cherry pie, but I think it's really the pecan. Um I there's a viscosity to this one that did not show up in this. Like this, this was very light and floral. This is viscous, medium to long. I think um to go back to like the the pie reference, I put graham cracker. There's a little bit of that gram that I get from it. Also, I've been eating a lot of graham crackers lately. So that's a perk having a little kid.

Aaron 1:01:30

Yeah, so yeah, my mine are all much older. We don't need a lot of graham crackers right now.

Gavin 1:01:34

We're on a graham cracker kick right now, so um, there are worse things to be.

Aaron 1:01:39

Good point. Good point. All right, should we give it a number? I think so. So my bottle, you go first. Sometimes we do this, and I I emphatically write down a number. Like I'm like, yep, got it. Uh huh. And then sometimes I write a number and I'll maybe maybe it should have been a different number. I so I I wrote 83 and then I started thinking about it. I was like, 84. All right, 83 and a half. Oh, we don't have to. We don't do halves very often. So I what I will say is I have historically really enjoyed Still Austin amongst all of the Texas-made stuff. It they do things a little different than everybody else, and I I like what they do different. Um there are other still Austin's that I actually like better. Um, okay. This one is a little too heavy in the burnt sugar notes, right? That this doesn't have some of those other soft vanilla kind of things that I look for. Maybe that's the rye showing up in there, right? Being that kind of sharp spiciness. Um, but considering how heavy a rye it is, I thought the corn covered the rye pretty well. Um, so yeah, I I think this is a is it worth having on the shelf? Absolutely. I think this is a tasty one. If you were asking me, I got a buddy who's never had Texas whiskey before, what should I give them? Still, Austin would be on my list, right? It would be the place where I'd start. And I I think this is a fair representation of what that kind of hot Texas climate um produces in a whiskey without being off-putting in that regard. So 83 and a half for me.

Gavin 1:03:21

All right. I'm gonna jump it up a little bit.

Aaron 1:03:24

Yeah, no, I mean you you tend to like the ones you bring. Yeah. 93 for me. 93. That's that's ridiculous.

Gavin 1:03:32

Yeah, I I really like it. Um seriously, you know.

Aaron 1:03:36

No, that's not I like it. That's why I love it.

Gavin 1:03:39

Yeah, and I think it's partly because I mean, you mentioned it, like you don't really get much of the vanilla side of it. I mean, I put buttercream in there, but um on the palette and on the finish, I don't really get a lot of it. Uh, a lot of the vanillans. Um, which I think is what's intriguing on this for me, is it's not something that I have on my shelf very, very often. I mean, I do have this bottle on my shelf, but like it, it's complex, it's different. Um, it's not your typical uh what you would consider bourbon. So yeah, I I think it's a it's a 93. It's sitting sitting high for me.

Aaron 1:04:21

Yeah, it's like in the world of bourbon bottles, this is a different one. You you're getting something different than you typically get out of other bourbons. Yeah. Which is always a fun thing to put into the collection or put it certainly put into a tasting like this. Uh I appreciate it. All right. We've hit the end. So this is this is the last time we'll talk to you before some of you have to write a great big check. Um, this may also be the well, no, you won't get your check back for quite several weeks, right? Um, but you'll have to you have to write the government a check on time, they'll get around to giving you your money back. So uh till next Wednesday, we wish you the best of luck. Till next Thursday, cheers. And Slanjaba. We want to thank you, our noble listener, for joining us. We believe each whiskey has a story, and so do you. So give us your thoughts by leaving a comment. And if you have a whiskey you would like to see us share, let us know. You don't want to miss a single episode, but subscribe to our YouTube channel. And make sure to like and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok to stay up to date on the Noble Dream. If you find watching us difficult, you can always listen to each episode on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. As always, be noble. Enjoy your journey responsibly.