Jews In The Lou
Jews in the Lou is a community-driven podcast that highlights the diverse voices, stories, and experiences of Jewish life in St. Louis. Hosted by Ben Poremba and Alex Rich, each episode features candid conversations with artists, entrepreneurs, spiritual leaders, and changemakers who are shaping the cultural and communal fabric of the city. From heartfelt reflections on identity and heritage to bold discussions about business, creativity, and purpose, Jews in the Lou celebrates the people who make the St. Louis Jewish community vibrant, resilient, and inspiring.
Jews In The Lou
Luigi Toscano & Dee Dee Simon on Jews in the Lou (Full Episode)
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Luigi Toscano & Dee Dee Simon on Jews in the Lou (Full Episode)
Exactly. I told you I swear to God Alex and then I I I walk there, you know, as a normal guy, you know. And then we we stand up, she stand up, you know, and in this moment she loses drowns.
SPEAKER_05I swear to God, she loses her drowsy and I say guys, Alex for Edemba.
SPEAKER_01Hey, we are excited to let you know that we have episodes of our podcast, Jews in the Lou, dropping every other week, and you're not gonna want to miss.
SPEAKER_00We have some great guests lined up. Amazing. And when I have you, I want to thank the St. Louis Jewish Light for their incredible partnership and support of our podcast, uh, the St. Louis Jewish Light doing amazing work for our community, uh, keeping us informed, uh uh with stories, with updates.
SPEAKER_01Um visit stljewishlight.org, subscribe to their newsletter, they'll keep you up to date on everything going on.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Well, see you soon.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_01You got you give off a very great vibe of life. You know what I mean? Is that what you said the first time you met him?
SPEAKER_03No, because we're rolling, aren't we?
SPEAKER_01We're perfect.
SPEAKER_03When I met Luigi, um, we first worked together in 2022.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_03And Luigi had a very different vibe going then and looked very differently. And so much so that when he came back and I was showing photos, people were like, that's not Luigi.
SPEAKER_01Really? How do we like this version of Luigi? We like this, love it. Yeah, what's new? The hair is new, the glasses are new.
SPEAKER_04I lost a lot of weight. Did you really? Yeah, yeah. And I do the best with my body, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, totally. So Luigi Toscano. Yes, right, and Dee Dee Simon, you guys, I appreciate you coming in because where are you originally from?
SPEAKER_04Okay. Uh originally I was born in Germany. Okay. My parents are Italian, the typical guest workers. They came in the 60s to Germany for work. And so I was born together with five sisters and one brother.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, we appreciate you coming to St. Louis. And um, we'll get like into your background because obviously you have a lot of interesting, um, interesting backstories that have gotten you to where you're at today. Um, and then Dee Dee, who knew we had a common connection as well.
SPEAKER_03St. Louis, right?
SPEAKER_01No, and you are what is your position with the Holocaust Museum, correct?
SPEAKER_03No, I am not with the Holocaust Museum per se, but I do chair the state commission for Holocaust Education. And then my husband and I, we have our own nonprofit Conversation Builds Character.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03And it it's in that capacity that I work with Luigi.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. And your in town, and what is that, what is that um, what is Conversation Builds Character? What is the backstory of that?
SPEAKER_03The backstory of that is it comes from my background um growing up in South St. Louis, being a German Catholic and never learning about the Holocaust. And um when the kids were in middle school, we went to the Holocaust Museum, and that was the first time that I had heard about it. And that was a life-changing experience for me. And so as time went on, it was just something that was placed on my heart to teach Holocaust education. Um and I started it with Conversation Build's character and then got the platform to work with the state commission. And so once I was appointed, it's a gubernatorial appointment. And once I was appointed, we were kind of doing the same thing. We were all both of us were working with teachers. So my husband and I, we changed Conversation Builds Character to still continue to teach the Holocaust, but in a larger format, such as Lest We Forget. And we like to partner with other organizations to help spread our message. So took it out of the classroom and put it into the streets, basically. Sure.
SPEAKER_01So that everybody, I mean, it's important for everybody to know about it. Um, and Luigi, how did you kind of talk about your background a little bit? And then we'll get to the Lest We Forget, because I know that's um an exhibit that you've, you know, put a lot into that you feel very strongly about. Obviously, there's a lot of great background to that. But um take us back in time. You said you were you grew up in Germany, but your passion for art and photography, who is Luigi?
SPEAKER_04Okay. First of all, I'm a normal guy, you know, I'm not from another planet or something like that, you know. And you know, I discovered the photograph photography um nearly 25 years ago or longer, because I buy a camera, you know, and I was thinking, okay, I saw this camera, I I mean that I can't take pictures, you know. So it is, you know, when you hear piano music and you're thinking, ah, you can play also piano, you know. And that is the same that me when I saw the camera, you know. So I buy it, and I I, you know, in that time we um we use analog uh cameras, and I I put a film inside, and then I I took these pictures, and then I bring back the film to develop, and I was completely convinced that I'm the best photographer in the world, you know? Yeah, so and then I after two days the development from the film came back, and then I saw it everything was black, you know, it was nothing good, you know. Right. So I was so frustrated that I would like to bring back the camera, you know. And uh the dealer said to me, No, it's not possible because that was a sale, that was an offer, you know, you cannot bring back the camera. So I was so frustrated that I I saw a course of a public school in Mannheim, and uh yeah, and I write in and I learned together with four older women and two students the basic of the photography, you know. And so and that time I do uh my way as a photographer, you know. So and then I, you know, you know that when you you have a, you know, you have some some, you know, you're trying out to take pictures so and so and so, and then uh I show this picture my friend where uh uh uh clean the windows, and you know, and that time I was a window cleaner, right? And he saw this this pictures and said, Wow, Luigi, let us do an exhibition for you. And I say, Come on, I'm I'm you know, I'm a greenhorn, I'm right nobody, you know, and no, no, come on, we try it, we try it. So we we we we made it, you know, on on this day the the the house was completely full, you know, and and you know, and and from that time I start my career as a photographer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that was your very first exhibit right there. Where to where you're at now. So now we'll talk about your exhibit that's coming here um to St. Louis, the less we forget how you even got involved with that. But um, yeah, I guess start there where what was the backstory to that? Because it's Holocaust remembrance, uh looking at survivors and telling those stories. Talk about that a little bit. You know, in and give us the dates too. Dude, the whole tell us when it's when when, where, and what it's all about.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Um, nearly 10 years ago, I I, you know, our political situation in Germany was not good, you know. It was the starting that the White Wings party are coming, you know, and and hate speech is coming louder, and anti-Semitic attacks comes louder, and and and so on and so on. And I decide to do something against this, you know. But I'm thinking, what can I do? You know, I'm not uh a person who are organized in the political things, or um I I'm uh you know, I do my work by myself. I I'm not really, you know, so and I I decide to do uh to do that what I can do, you know. Uh and that was the take pictures, you know, and then on this way it's coming my idea to put pictures from Holocaust survivors and to bring it in the public space because I would like that the people see what happened when we follow the right way, you know. So and I was a little bit naive with this idea, but uh I I start to write my concept and everything, and and I sent it in different uh institutions, and I I received no no response about that, you know. So uh a little bit later, the the first door was opened from the United States Holocaust Museum in Washington. Sure. They read my my idea and they say, Wow, fantastic! And they offer me to take pictures from Holocaust survivors in Washington, DC. You know, so I travel from Germany to to to Washington and uh I take pictures there. And then you must know with my first picture, I run behind my project, you know, because everybody will see what what powerful picture that are, you know, and what powerful message that could be gone, you know, and uh and then I I I I I I show my first exhibition with this pictures in the public space. That is the trick, you know, that you bring this pictures not in a museum or in a gallery, but nobody comes, right, you know, right? But if you go in the public space, everybody can see it, right, you know, right, and that is the trick, you know. Also, I do that in Washington, DC, on the reflecting pool, on the both side on the reflecting pool, and you see how big are these pictures, right? Right. So you can imagine. And the trick is I I I I select the date during the uh Jerry Plosum Festival, you know, and you know how many people are coming. You know, and it was amazing, you know, because over 200 or 300,000 people came uh in uh in two weeks there. So, and many people in the world see this exhibition.
SPEAKER_01But you're also saying with that, like putting it in public, you get a lot of people that just stumble upon your art, stumble upon your photos, and it's an opportunity where, as opposed to being in museums and being in different places, like people are going out of their way to go to those museums. This for you is a way to tell the story to everyone.
SPEAKER_04For example, um, I I show this exhibition in Boston, in the Boston Common Park, you know, and that was the way for many people to go to work, you know. I receive so many emails because they write me, hey Luigi, on this morning I was on the way on my work and I I stopped on the on the exhibition, you know. And you know, that is that is that what I mean when I show this pictures in the public space. In the first, you when you see the picture, you you have no idea what it is, you know, right? Right. Because you see only the pictures of uh older people and their face, you know, and then you realize because you can read a little plate there, what what is the name from the person and what happened with this person, you know?
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so the the art, the photography is Holocaust survivors, all Holocaust survivors, right? And are you do you come from a Jewish background? No, no, no. So that's the other thing I want to get into as far as it helps people understand the Holocaust wasn't just Jews.
SPEAKER_04No, it was um you have right that the biggest group was the victims of Jews, you know, or Jews victims, you know. And and there are many other groups who was victim. There was the Syntian Romans, there was the forces labor, the political, the homosexuals, you know, and also the Euthanasi uh victims, you know. And I I picked up everybody from uh I I take pictures from everybody of this uh groups, you know, but the biggest group are the Jewish survivor, you know. And because you know, they they have have many levels, the the the Holocaust, you know, not only the Jew, sure, you know, but again, I will respect that to say because the the Jew group was the biggest group. If you are Jew, you was dead on that time, you know. So, and that is that why I decide to do this project on this way, you know, to make every group of the victims in my project, you know, so that the people can see how how big is the story of the of the Holocaust, you know.
SPEAKER_01So when you capture the art, when you capture the photography of the people that you're working with, what goes into your mind? Do you sit and hear their story? And then that gives you a little bit of guidance as far as the direction you want to see your photos go with them, or talk about that process a little bit.
SPEAKER_04You know, you must know I I don't run in, I make a picture and then I run out, you know. I spend sometimes hours together with these people because they have the they tell me first of all her story, you know. But how do you how can I say, you know, it is the same when you visit your grandmother and when you grandpa, you know, you know that situation. You come in, you're going in the living room, the grandma offers you cakes and coffee, you know, and you have a beautiful conversation, you know. And how are you? And uh, and then they start to talk about the Holocaust, you know, and in this moment, you know, it is a quiet situation in this room, you know, and you listen. You listen, you listen, you listen. And sometimes it's really hard to listen, you know, because you can imagine the stories are really hard, you know, really, really hard. I don't know how many times during the last 10 years I start to cry because it is true, you know, it's not a fake or something like that, you know. And you know, sometimes I I have to, you know, to stand up and run away because it's so hard, you know. I remember one story when I was in Chicago at the Holocaust Center. There a George came in, you know, from uh he came in a classroom. I was sitting here in on my chair, and and you know, he came, he he stepped in the door and from far away, he said, Hey hi Luigi, nice to meet you. And it's so great, you know, older people, yeah. And it is a beautiful project. And he saw my tattoos, you know, and he he said to me, Hey Luigi, you have beautiful tattoos, and and and you know, sometimes um I'm really concentrated to do not uh uh um a mistake or something like that. And I have in my mind to ask him, Are you also have you a tattoo? Right, of course he has, you know, right number, right? Right. And he came before I I speak out that he came before and said, Luigi, I have also a tattoo, but not so beautiful than your tattoo, you know. Wow, and he he showed me his number, you know. And on this moment I know that during my conversation with him, it's coming a big surprise for me, you know. Sure. And we talk about uh, you know, we we spent 20 minutes and then he said, Luigi, you know what? I was the guy with other guys who built the crematorio in Auschwitz. In in this crematorio, my all my relevance was burnt there, you know. Wow, and that is that what I mean. Uh I would like to stand up and run away. Right, right. But it's not unbelievable, you know. And you see this this beautiful man in front of you and he he's willing to tell his st his story to me, you know. A foreigner, you know, a photographer. He don't know me, you know. And he's feeling that that what I do is the right way, what I will do, you know, to show his face on the public space, because everybody can see where he comes from and what they mean if you select a right wing party, you know. You know, that is that is that is the easy way.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right. So when you hear when you hear the stories that Luigi's told over the years, how how does what sticks out to you as far as how he's able to capture the the images that he's able to capture?
SPEAKER_03So in 22 when Luigi came here, we were able to um photograph 12 Holocaust survivors from the St. Louis area. Wow. And I was fortunate to go with Luigi's. It was a lot. We we shot for three days and we would go into their homes, and it's exactly what Luigi said. You know, there's sort of um, you know, hello, thank you, welcome, come on in. And then Luigi has this knack of speaking in multiple languages, and he would say something maybe in a language that they speak. And Alex, I'm not kidding you. Their eyes just light up and they get this big smile, and then they start. I'm gonna have goosebumps just thinking back on it. They start this conversation and it just changes everything. And he truly looks at them as a human being. There is a human behind that story, and he truly respects them. And that's what I took away when I got to go with him, um, which is just the rapport that he can build with these survivors. And, you know, it's it's a vulnerable place for these survivors to share their story with Luigi.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04And I'm sorry, Alex, you must know, for example, you you know, my intention is not to coming as an artist to this people or coming to a famous guy to this people. I told them I am a normal guy, you know, I'm not interested about fame or something like that. I do that because I it is my intention to do something against this, you know, what happened in the world, you know. And um, you know, I and when I step in in this room, I try to do my best what I can, you know. Sometimes it's not easy because sometimes there are different people, you know. There are sometimes there are you know, there are traumatized and and and but I try to do really my best. You know, I'm really friendly to them, and and sometimes I joking with them also, and you know, uh, and I spend really hours. You cannot imagine how many cake I eat in the last 10 years, you know. You look great for all these. Yeah, no, no, but you had to see me two or three changes.
SPEAKER_01He's eating like gluten-free cake now, right?
SPEAKER_04You know, sometimes it's uh and also I was fortunated, Alex, that for example, especially in the east part of the world, in Belarus or in Poland or Ukraine or in Russia, the the people cannot speak in open about her past, you know, because it was forbidden. Sure, it was really forbidden to to talk about it, you know. And sometimes I came in situation that she or her or him decide to to to to speak out for the first time, you know. And you can imagine sometimes we are sitting with 20 people in a room, sure, and uh and grandma Maria is talking for the first time, you know.
SPEAKER_01And you can imagine how telling stories that her family is not even.
SPEAKER_04You know, and and you you can uh you can cut off the air inside, you know, because it is so uh emotional, so powerful emotional, you know. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01How does your how do you think your own personal background allows you to sit in the because candidly I I think like I'm a person where I think you know, if you're sitting in the room and somebody's putting something heavy on you, you know there's certain people that have a really great reaction and they're really nurturing and they're able to to really handle that situation situation? I don't think I'm necessarily one of those people that is um knows you know what to do overly in that situation, but how do you because you're almost like a therapist, right? Where these people are talking to you about the deepest, darkest things that have ever happened in their entire lives and they're doing it in front of their family.
SPEAKER_04How do you feel like that is like how do you feel like your own background has put you in a position to be able to handle that type of you know, in the beginning I was really naive, you know, because I'm thinking I take only pictures and that's it, you know? But to sitting there to listen to their stories, um, I became sick, you know, because uh I lose my hearing, you know, and I have other problems with me, you know. So I realized that I need also a little bit help, you know, because um I was I remember I was alone in a hotel in Moscow in in Russia and on this evening I I broke, you know. I was really I was you know and I called my best friend, I say, Hey, I can I I'm helpless, you know. Can you help me? You know, I cannot hear anymore. And and on this time I I I was searching for help, you know. So I came back to Germany and I go to the doctors and I I find a therapist that he helps me to keep coming back on on on my food, you know. And And then I realized, okay, Luigi, it is necessary that you speak also out what happened, you know, because I was you know especially when I I I it it's coming in the night, you know, the dreams are coming back, you know, for the day, you know. And that was my horror about that, you know, because I don't had find uh a tool to to to let them go, you know, to let my bad dreams, you know, or nightmares, you know. So I oh sorry, I I I I I find a way with together with a therapist to work with this, you know. So at that point, my health is going better and better, you know. And you know, Alex, it's also necessary that you have fun on this conversation, you know. Right, right. Because you can, you know, it is hard enough that you when you speak spoke only about the Holocaust, you know, but you have also normal situations, you know, and that can broke the ice, also. For example, I don't know if I told you this story when I was invited in Paris, you know, um, that was a really rich Holocaust survivor, really, really big rich, you know, and they have a big, big not that was not a house, that was a castle, you know. And I see this only in my in the TVs, you know. So and and the the the housewife is coming and opened and said to me, Luigi, si vous play uh in French, sit down in the saloon, you know, you like a tea or coffee, you know. And they bring me we, you know, with the uh it was really I was really impressed about that, you know. You know, I saw the first time uh a Picasso on the wall, you know, and and I I I cannot stop to take pictures of this Picasso, you know, and you can imagine, you know. And so, and then the housewife came to me, or what do you say, housewife or housekeeping, or what is the the the the the lady who serves the maid, the maid, yeah. So, and she's coming every two minutes. Oh, another five minutes, she's preparing, you know, and she's time, no worries, you know. And then she told me, Ah, Luigi, now she's ready. Come on, and you can, and then they open this big doors, you know, and and and it was a really big table, you know, and she was really not a big person.
SPEAKER_01She was at the end of it, yeah, just like in the movies.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. I told you, I swear to god, Alex, and then I I I walk there, you know, as a normal guy, you know, and then we we stand up, she stands up, you know, and in this moment she loses drowsy. I swear to God, she loses drows and I said you know, and you know, Alice, that probe Alice, everything, everything was come on, come on, you know. And and she loved me for that, she but she started to smile, and and we we spent four hours together, and we had, you know, we were so I mean it was really a personal situation for her because I saw her everything, you know. You know, and and and in that moment it was so funny, you know. And sure, I don't know who helps me in this situation because you can imagine um when you are impressed, you know, you you you oh my god, timid, yeah. You know, and then that that liberate me for everything, you know. And then we had uh we had I I don't know four or five hours. I I eat the best meal in Paris ever in my life, you know, and and so on and so on, you know, and that is that what I mean, Alex, that it is uh it is uh important to be uh normal, you know, sure. To be normal. There is nothing special. I mean, they are really happy when somebody came and they are interested about her story, yeah. Because you know it is so bad what for experience that they have, and it is so bad what they when they turn off the TV to see in the news what happened in the world, you know. The anti-Semitic is coming, all the hate speech is coming again, and so on and so on, you know, and and they are angry about that, you know. And you know, I remember one of the first survivors, she she came from Charlotte, North Carolina. She told me, Luigi, please, if you met people, say to them, if you forget the past, we are dummy to repeat it, you know. So, and you see what's going on, you know, and I think that we do the same wrong and we accept uh another thing, you know?
SPEAKER_01And and yeah, is that where the lust uh lust you forget? That's where the back story of the name comes from.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. That is what you know. I was, you know, Alex, that is that what I mean, what I told you in the beginning. You know, I I I I have to do something against this, not only to speak about it. Yeah, you can speak with your friends, you can speak there, you can speak there, you can be angry, but you can open a discussion. But the important is to do something, you know. So I decide to do against this, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think that brings up a good point, and not to bring this back uh, you know, to the Jews in the Lou like podcast of what we do, but I think that's a big reason why Ben and I put this together was because of you know the return of anti-Semitism for whatever reason that may be. I think no matter what you're doing, whether you're telling a story of something that happened to you or just spreading awareness, which is realistically what we're doing here, um, is showcasing different Jewish individuals in St. Louis or different stories that affect um Jewish individuals. And like you said, a large group here in St. Louis. Um so I think that like again, it is it is just so crazy that that that is something that's returning. Um and it's not something where people are just saying, oh, well, the Holocaust was in Germany. Like that's a Germany-focused thing. People forget that like hate and anti-Semitism is all over the world right now. And it's um this is important what you're doing. This is important telling these stories, and you're showing that, you know, because um I think that Jewish people a lot of the time feel like people um outside of Jewish people don't really have their back as much as people, you know, should at times. But I think, yes, the Holocaust affected a lot of non-Jewish people, but you yourself said that this is an important thing for um people with Jewish backgrounds need to understand and need to share these stories. So I think what you're doing is incredible. Thank you. Um, what I I wanted to go back because we'll get to the direction of where things are going today. But you talk about you've walked into like a lot of big places, a lot of cool places. Is there a place that sticks out to you as because you seem to be a very well-traveled person? Is there a place that sticks out to you um that you really remember or really made a big impact in your life?
SPEAKER_04There are so many, Alex. You know, you can imagine that, but you know, you must know that I I now I I I take pictures over 600 persons around the world, you know. And you can imagine that all these people have a place in my heart, you know, and it is not possible to stay in touch with everybody because you have not so time, you know. But there are yeah, uh two handful of of people there are really deep, you know. And one of these people are Anna, you know. I I met her ten years ago, the first time when I was in the Ukraine, and she told me her story. She was uh one and a half years old, you know. She came to Auschwitz to the concentration camp in Auschwitz, and you can imagine uh, I mean, you must think that she was one and a half years old, and the Nazis give her a number here, you know, they tattoo a number, and how painful is that, you know. So in this moment, she loses everything mother, father, everything. And she was so fortunated to survive this, you know, because uh, if you are a child and you came to the concentration camp, your possibility to survive was not high, you know. So, but she was fortunated, you know, and she was liberated and she was adopted uh in an Ukrainian family, you know, and and she she spent her rest of her life in Ukraine, and and but she was searching all his life about her where where she comes from, you know. She don't know about her real name, she don't know about her uh if she has sisters or brothers, how is the name of her father or mother, you know. And so two and a half years before the war in Ukraine broke out, I decide to find out where is Anna, you know, and I I I I made a documentary film about her, Blood Sugar, Red Blood, you know, and and I find it. I find out where is Anna come from, I find out her real name, I found out she had um um where she was born, you know. I find out everything, you know.
SPEAKER_03And Luigi, did it when you went to Auschwitz, didn't they tell you Luigi? It's like finding a needle in a haystack, you're not gonna find her number.
SPEAKER_01So these were things that she was not even able to ever find.
SPEAKER_04You know, because you must know she was uh tattoos, you know, and when she was adopted, the the parents, the adopted parents, they remove her number. Normally, the number is uh one of the best ways to find something about this person, you know. Wow. And she was part in a propaganda film from the from the Soviet Union, you know. So and the speaker in the film says a number, you know, and this number was not correct. You know, we find out. I I you must know I I work together with a great team, you know, with historians and so on. And they help me to to find a way to find out who's Anna, you know. And one of the best ways is when you have the number, you know, you can you can you can go in the archive, you can follow the this ways, but the number she removed the number, you know, and and and that makes it more different. And and the only what we have was the the the the snipple in in the in the TV that they uh that the speaker says 69129, you know, and that was completely not correct. This number, you know. We find out that was another person with this number, you know. And so I I I I start a really adventure with me because you must know that in the end, uh somebody from the how do you call it? You have the FBI, we have also in German the FBI. I go there to the director in you know, and I ask him, Hey, can you help me? You know, because and then he said, Yes, of course I help you with his digital, we call it digital, digital forensic team, you know. There are special specialists, they can uh look on the you know, with computers and everything, and they can uh uh look on the old film scenes, you know, and they can make it real. How was the real number of her, you know? Wow. I told you the speaker says in the propaganda film 6.9 was not 69, it was 61929, you know. And then when we find out that our historian finds the right way. And our I was in the archive in Auschwitz, and the director gave me all the papers, you know. So, and we cannot find it. But that was a small moment that he opened a page and I saw a similar number, you know, and that was and it was uh yes, that's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_01That's like a mentor D type.
SPEAKER_04And then in in this moment, normally, you know, um I remember when I I I asked for for coming to the archive in Auschwitz, they say, Luigi, your chance is zero, uh, you know, because it's not possible. But uh you must know there are millions of papers there, millions, you know. And 10% are digital it, you know.
SPEAKER_01So your job is so much more than just the photography aspect and the art aspect of it.
SPEAKER_04I can tell you so many other stories. Yeah. If you like, I can tell you about a story uh of two guys when I show my first exhibition in Berlin, you know. Normally when we when we set up the exhibition, you know, I'm I I decide, okay, I put this this guy or woman there and I put them there, you know. And I don't know why on this day I put two guys together, you know. It was Horst and Walter, you know. And in the opening, you know, uh, and you must know Horst lived lived in in Germany, and Walter lives in Stockholm, in Sweden, you know, and he read only one daily newspaper from Germany, you know. So on the opening, you know, uh press media is coming, and also a photographer from the newspaper who read Walter in Stockholm in Sweden, you know? So and this journalist take a picture of these two guys, you know. So on the next day, Walter read the the newspaper and he called me, give me a call, phone call. Luigi, Luigi, what you done? What you done? And I say, What happened, Walter? What what's going on? Luigi, Luigi, what you done? This is Horst. This is Horst, my old school friend, you know. And after 80 years, they come together. They hadn't seen each other. No, because you must know there was two family that live in the in the in the same street. There were boys when they played together, you know. Yeah and the tragical is Alex that Horst's family was completely killed. And Walter's family completely survived, you know.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_04And you can imagine that how traumatized is Horst and how traumatized is Walter. You know, Walter was uh Horse, uh Walter was on the airport, he was flying directly from Stockholm to Germany. Horst called me, Luigi. Please say him that he don't come because that will be kill me. But because all the decades of years, my trauma ties, you know, they they broke out, you know. So I I I call what you you can imagine what what a trauma that was for me. I was happy that uh uh Walter is coming, you know.
SPEAKER_01But now he's saying he doesn't want him to come.
SPEAKER_04But not he will you know you must understand he will he he was so so happy to hear that his old boyfriend, you know, uh survived, you know. But you know, he cannot he takes time for that, you know. And and Walter was, you know, and and and you can imagine that was that was uh He needed to ease back into that, knowing, hey, I'm not ready to see him yet, but when I'm ready to see him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the thing is, um He never thought all these years later that the opportunity would even come.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, and and the thing is um the time was not enough for him because two months later Um Horse passed away, you know, and they don't see each other, you know, yeah. But it was okay, you know, because they're here on the phone, they speak. They did speak, and that is that is okay, you know, and that is enough, you know. Right. Normally we we we we would like to see a happy end, you know, typical Hollywood, you know. So uh, you know, but it it is not it's still beautiful that they're able to find each other after each other. They only one or two phone calls, and that was enough. Ah, you are survived, yes, I'm survived, and that's all.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I can I mean I can only imagine. In your experience with your role, how um what's your what's your perspective on what someone like Luigi does with telling the stories that he tells? And you know, obviously I would say it's always been important to capture the stories of survivors, but there's less and less and less and that are living to tell their stories. So you've I'm sure worked with many people to capture stories over the years. What sticks out to you about Luigi's project and how it's you know, how it's gotten to the point where it's at?
SPEAKER_03So one of the things that survivors um or what victims of the Holocaust said during that time is if you survive, make sure that you tell our story. And we have fewer and fewer firsthand testimonies, right? So what Luigi does, he has captured these individuals and he has provided us an opportunity to put the story with the face and being able to put those portraits out there into the public, and now we're putting it into schools. So for the first time in the United States, we'll put his exhibition into schools, and it's passing this history on to the next generation, the younger generation, allowing them the opportunity to do research on these uh survivors, and then being able to interact with these portraits in a way that's meaningful to them. So I think now that we don't actually have the humans with us, Luigi capturing that image provides us that opportunity to continue to hear their stories, to learn their stories, and to have some sort of a connection, if you will. Because we don't want it to be a statistic, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How much do you worry? I mean, there are obviously you you have the people that say, well, the Holocaust never happened, the Holocaust was never a thing. What do you have to say to those people? But also what do you do worry that that these stories will at some point be forgotten?
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely. I mean, this generation now, we're pushing 80 years. Um this generation doesn't understand the Holocaust, and we've actually changed the way that we're teaching it. So when we were teaching it in the earlier years, we taught the historical data, right? The historical facts. Now, because we're so far removed, we have to be able to help this generation connect emotionally so we share the stories more. Firsthand testimony has become really important. And so we're always going to have deniers, right? But education is the key. We have got to continue educating people. And Missouri now has this mandate that went into effect this school year that uh all schools need to teach Holocaust education between sixth and twelfth grade, once in middle school, once in high school. And so being able to continue to share those stories, that's what we've got to do. We've got to keep talking about it. We've got to find ways that, you know, our generation, your generation, my children's generation can connect with this history because social media is the biggest problem that we have.
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_03That's that's just horrible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I totally agree. I um I think that it's so easy to get sucked into, especially, you know, unfortunately, there's people that aren't able to get great educations, but it is unfortunate that people see what they see on social media and then they get on this bandwagon, this train. I don't know if it's something that people think is cool. If it's, but it's I've almost I've heard that term where people now think it's cool to be anti-Semitic, right? And the fact that that that that's even something that is a sentence that comes out of anybody's mouth is it's crazy, but you do see it in today's world. I think there's a lot of younger uh generations where I think, especially below my I'm a I'm a millennial, I guess that's what you I would be. But I think that it's troubling that the Youthful generation sometimes don't know how to decipher what is fact and what is not fact.
SPEAKER_03We don't, we've taken critical thinking out of our schools.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And when we can study the Holocaust in this way, it helps bring critical thinking back. And I will say another thing that Luigi's work does is we don't read anymore. I once heard a statistic from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum that if it was more than 42 words, the kids weren't reading it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so Which is, I mean, it's it makes sense. It's a real, it's a real thing.
SPEAKER_03It's a very real thing. But when Luigi puts his portraits in public spaces, they're seeing it. And then it starts the curiosity and start asking the question. And why I think Luigi and I work so well together is that we both believe that we don't tell people what to think, but we like to give them things to think about. And that's exactly what his exhibition does. It allows the passerby to go as deep into this history as they want to go into it. And there's a plethora of really sound resources out there, but it's finding the right resources, right? Absolutely. And that's why education continues to be key.
SPEAKER_01I think that's a great point you make. And especially, you know, why people are like what makes the, even myself, what makes these pictures so special? And it is going back to what you just said. It's a visual world we're living in. People aren't reading like they used to. And it's not really shoved in your face. It's more here, here's a here's a photo. Take from it what you will, but learn the story behind it. And it goes so much deeper. Like a what a picture's worth a thousand words, right? But these pictures are worth, you know, infinite amount of words because there's an unbelievable story that goes behind each and every one of these. Um, so the exhibit talk about the exhibit. So it's here in St. Louis, and what are the dates?
SPEAKER_03Um, we open on April 16th through May 3rd. It's at the district in Chesterfield. And that in and of itself is unique because I think oftentimes when we talk about a Holocaust survivor, we we identify them just with the tragic, the cataclysmic event that happened to them. But putting it at a space like the district where we have concerts, we have sporting events up on the big screen, we have adults gathering for dinner and beverages. It helps us understand that these individuals were humans just like us. They lived lives just like we did. They enjoy the same things that we are doing at the district. This cataclysmic event happened to them, but it's also about their resilience, right? They have gone on to marry, to become successful business people, to live very rich lives. So it's it's a different narrative that we're trying to bring with this exhibition and reaching a population of people who may not know about the Holocaust.
SPEAKER_01So I think it's great. I think it's um and and again, I you know, I'm glad that we talked about some of the things that you've learned with the survivors that like that bring joy to them and and stories you have stories that you're able to laugh at after hearing like um conversations with different people. But I do think that is a unique um aspect of the exhibit that that you kind of mentioned was these were normal people. So obviously, yes, obviously it's a very serious, um, it's a very serious um, you know, exhibit and um it's a very serious thing that people can come out and look at, but also it's humanizing it and making it so that people realize it's we don't have to be sad every time yes, it's okay to be sad, but we don't have to be sad every time we think about these people because these survivors are normal people. Like they they're normal people, integrated in and had been in the community for years, and like you said, went on to live normal lives. And for anybody to think, well, these people's lives may have been defined in a way as being a survivor, it's not letting that define them 100%, where they didn't get to have any other joys of life or anything like that. And I think that's that is cool, bringing it to um a complex like the like the district.
SPEAKER_03I will never forget that pain that they endured, but I will take it one step further and say, yes, it happened to the Jews during the Holocaust, but as long as there's one population of people that is deemed lesser than, we are all at risk. Yeah, 100%. Oscar Jacob is a um Holocaust survivor featured in Luigi's exhibition. And he just said to me um in a in a testimony for this exhibition we thought this could never happen. So, and it did. So it's nothing is impossible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think what you've done is amazing. Um being able to tell a story the way that you tell it is incredibly unique and I think um deeper than deeper than the average way that you would hear the story. So uh, you know, obviously um from the Jewish perspective and the Jewish population, thank you for obviously keeping people aware of what happened, but also just sharing those stories for for everyday people. Is there anything else that you can think of that maybe we didn't cover that you wanna that you wanna leave people with or uh you know something that has gotten you to where you're at today? Would would you have ever would you have ever years ago thought that this is um this is something you'd invest so much time into and and be where you're at right now?
SPEAKER_04I have only two or three worth we must be um careful, you know? We must be careful and we must be I don't know how do you say in in English, but I would like to repeat my word, what Susan told me. She said if we forget the past we are damned to repeat it, you know, so that is so necessary because Yeah. Are you are you do you have worries about the the the world as it is right now with in regards to you know I'm optimistic, you know, and I think that our democracy will win, you know? And that is that what uh when I stand up every morning, you know, I saw in the mirror and I said today our mc democracy will win, you know. That is that what I hope for us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I think you both of you genuinely show that there's um good people because we always like to chat with good people on this show, but we always um I think it goes a step further in showing like these are your stories, are ones that we also want to share because you are people like you guys are doing things to make the community better for the Jewish community for sure, but for everybody as a whole. And I think that it that's rare to come by these days, but I like to also think that the good will outweigh the evil and we'll all end up on top, and everybody will get along, and uh, and you know, those are the stories that we'll be sharing one day. So, but we appreciate both of you um sitting down and chatting with us. And um again, the um Lest We Forget April 16th through through May 3rd at the district. Is there a website people can go learn about more about you and more about um Lest We Forget?
SPEAKER_03There is. If you go to conversation builds character.org, okay, we have a landing page for it, Lest We Forget, the large exhibition as well as the school, the educational initiative.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Awesome. Well, we appreciate it. Luigi, real quick. A name like Luigi, you gotta know good food. Have what have you eaten good places in St. Louis?
SPEAKER_04I gotta finish on a I I remember when I was here the first time, Didi bring me to a really good Italian restaurant in the hill. Yeah, and I love it. It was Catino, or what is the name? Um Tino. I I I don't get it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, what is Charlie Gino's Charlie Gito's?
SPEAKER_04I love this place, and you know what? I have uh with me my brother-in-law, and he's the first time in America.
SPEAKER_01This is it, and and in St. Louis is the first.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and and I will bring him to this Italian quarter there because he loves, you know, it is a uh it is so beautiful there. You know, I remember that when I was the first time here in St. Louis. So uh maybe tonight or maybe tomorrow I will go there and I will show them what you don't have very many free nights, so you better choose your pizza's probably like back to back.
SPEAKER_01Well, um we hope you enjoy it. Do you have you has he had emos? Has he had St. Louis style pizza yet?
SPEAKER_03I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01I don't know that that would be his it wouldn't be his jam. It wouldn't be your you are you like a thick crust pizza guy? Yeah, this isn't that funny. Well, we appreciate you. Thank you. Um thank you so much for everything you do, and uh, we're looking forward to seeing um all the beautiful stories that you're telling um with Lest We Forget. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to St. Louis again. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, thank you, Alex.