Healing Through Spirit, Body, and Nature with Dr. Ron Banuelos

In this episode of Beyond Names, Dr. Habib sits down with Dr. Ron Banuelos, licensed acupuncturist and spiritual seeker, for a heartfelt conversation on the intersections of healing, spirituality, and nature. Dr. Ron shares his journey of reclaiming cultural identity, exploring men’s work and shadow healing, and learning from shamanic traditions of South America. Together they reflect on the ways body, emotion, and spirit are intertwined, how grief and ancestral wounds can transform into wisdom, and how stillness in nature opens us to divine connection. This episode invites listeners into the depth of healing as an ongoing process of returning to wholeness. 

To make an appointment with Dr. Habib, please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/.

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 12

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Dr. Ron Banuelos

Title: Healing Through Spirit, Body, and Nature with Dr. Ron Banuelos

Description: In this episode of Beyond Names, Dr. Habib sits down with Dr. Ron Banuelos, licensed acupuncturist and spiritual seeker, for a heartfelt conversation on the intersections of healing, spirituality, and nature. Dr. Ron shares his journey of reclaiming cultural identity, exploring men’s work and shadow healing, and learning from shamanic traditions of South America. Together they reflect on the ways body, emotion, and spirit are intertwined, how grief and ancestral wounds can transform into wisdom, and how stillness in nature opens us to divine connection. This episode invites listeners into the depth of healing as an ongoing process of returning to wholeness.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names. I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the divine Allah, Yahweh, Elohim, Brahman, Higher Power, Great Mystery, Spirit, Source, or you're still searching for the language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that we carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm glad that you're here. Let's begin with introducing today's guest -- Dr. Ron Bonuelos, who has studied Chinese medicine and is a licensed acupuncturist. I know personally, because I've experienced being a patient of Dr. Ron.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Dr. Ron has been an essential piece of many patients journeys with their physical health, but also caring for their overall being, with the well-being of the mind, body, heart, and soul.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And if folks want to learn more about Dr. Ron and what he does, please visit https://healaustin.com/.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome, Dr. Ron. Thank you for being here. 

Dr. Ron: Thank you for having me. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's great to connect with you after moving away from Austin. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's just, I don't know.... I was talking to a friend recently who is going to be on the upcoming episode soon, Dr. Dana Maxwell. And she said, Oh, yeah, Dr. Ron was such an important part of her life when she was in Austin, too. You were an important part of my life when I was in Austin. So thank you for being here.

Dr. Ron: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Yeah. It's been an honor to be a part of, it's nice saying Dr. Maxwell's name, I remember her for a long time ago. And you, Habib, has been. It's been. It seems like it's lifetimes ago, but it continues, the learning of life continues over and over again. So thank you for having me and I'm glad we can connect and share our conversation to the world.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. So let's, for that conversation, let's talk about -- as you know, this podcast is all about spirituality. I think a lot of times people do not understand. In my first episode I'm like, Okay, I am, my path is the path of Islam and the path of Sufism, of Islamic mysticism, and I firmly believe that there are many paths as there are hearts....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: There's a saying that is often attributed to Rumi that there are as many paths as there are hearts, and there's also in religion, in Islam, there are verses in the Quran that say, there is no compulsion in religion. And there are verses that say, “Oh, mankind! We created you many different peoples and many different tribes, so that you might know one another.” 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So like, I carry this belief of, okay, I think that we have historically, as human beings carried our spiritual paths, or maybe even more specifically, our religions with too much narrowness, and that we are, it behooves us to pay attention to how other people experience spirituality. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so what I'm wanting to do with this podcast is open the door to folks who are already in the spiritual path and committed to their whatever their path might be, but also the folks who are exploring, and don't really know where they're going to land and just expose them to different ways of relating and experiencing spirituality. And so I'm hoping that you will be happy to share a bit about your spiritual story, so as a way of introducing who you are, but telling us about your spiritual journey, but also including, telling us about who you think you are, in your truth and your deepest self, and what you, through your spiritual journey, what you've come to in terms of what you want to contribute to the world.

Dr. Ron: Such a beautiful question. And to talk about the past and bring us up to the present. For me, it's been, as many, probably many, listening to this, I've been a seeker my entire life.

Dr. Ron: Probably as yourself, too, Habib. You know it's that seeking that is a really beautiful thing. And it's also to really appreciate, for me, it's also for appreciation of what I've learned, what I've experienced, all the challenges, all the heartaches, all the moving through the healing of the past.

Dr. Ron: Even the healing of the ancestors. I feel like that's been another big part of my healing is really healing that part. And I feel like many lifetimes have been lived for myself right in in this life. And it's just for me, it's like breaking down the different phases of my life. It's like, Oh, when I was younger I was definitely a seeker, and being open and learning about the past and history, and part of me wanted to not really acknowledge, like my cultural, the cultural part of my past. It was in denial, because I'm a Mexican American. And so a lot of places I grew up. It wasn't really accepted. 

Dr. Ron: So the things I had to do as an adult is to reclaim that part of my culture, to read, to assimilate it, and be, and put it at peace, but also heal a lot of those wounds from this lifetime, but also heal it from my grandparents, my great grandparents, learning more about that from the past. So that was, that's been a big part of my healing, I would say, just to start off with, it was like, Wow, and I didn't really know about that until you know, until yeah, I went to Chinese medical school, and after about 2 years of being in practice, I had a full practice. And this is the statement I remember saying, I know nothing.

Dr. Ron: I know absolutely nothing, and that's where I felt like there was a moment there where I was like I'm ready to move forward.

Dr. Ron: I'm ready to be beginner's mind and learn, and also heal. I had no idea how much I needed to heal, no clue, no clue did I have. It was just like I had a little bit of knowledge, and I knew my heart just wanted to help others. How many people have a heart of just wanting to help others, and I wanted to be in service, and I knew what I was doing was being in service.

Dr. Ron: However, I was helping people in a mostly a lot of physical ways.

Dr. Ron: Everything from pain to hormones to doing some gut work, and all of that was important. I think that was really good. And I was beginning to hit the tip of the iceberg of feeling how emotions and spirituality are really like where all this comes from, all of our a lot of our issues are. 

Dr. Ron: Often they begin in the spiritual, emotional level. And yes, you have to heal them spiritually, emotionally, but also physically. And how to have those two gaps be bridged. You know, it's really important. 

Dr. Ron: And that was a big part of my walking is to like after two years, I don't, I know nothing.

Dr. Ron: So really studying and being a seeker, and that that led me down a lot of roads. I practice a lot of muscle testing. So a lot of muscle testing, that just basically means you test a muscle group and you're asking someone's body questions. I always call it the best doctor for you is you.

Dr. Ron: So how can we ask questions to that inner doctor? And so it led me down that pathway, and yes, a lot of it was physical, but then a lot of it was identification of how an emotion could be trapped into a body part.

Dr. Ron: How an emotion could be linked to an issue or syndrome, or like any disease. And it was like, Okay, and there are other authors out there that have described, Oh, I have this one issue. And it could mean this. And that's okay. That's good. It's good because it points people in directions. But it's also like trying to really feel into how this fits for yourself and your own unique journey.

Dr. Ron: So that's really really special. And so learning about that, going down that pathway was really important for me to help support others.

Dr. Ron: But then it was really for me, the next part was trying to find some of the healing within myself.

Dr. Ron: And so that led me down even more pathways of community. Because I was, one of the things many people are looking for is community. We're feeling so alone nowadays, and having community is so crucial. And so one thing I started to do is men's work.

Dr. Ron: And so men's work was basically meeting with a group of men who we had all done, well in the beginning I had done no training, so I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I was doing. I was part of a group called Mankind Project, and it was a group of men, and it was non-denominational.

Dr. Ron: But we were. It was based on a lot of Joseph Campbell work. It was based on a lot of Carl Jung work. So it was really beautiful to kind of step into this other world. And oh, I've got some issues.

Dr. Ron: Thought I was all good thought I healed most of those things. 

Dr. Ron: I'm like, yeah, a little bit, a little bit, and how my actions and my reactions are often based on some of those old wounds. So, and traumas. And it's like all these old things. 

Dr. Ron: So, starting to look at that, which was really beautiful, because a lot of it was, some of it was shadow work, which shadow for me I define as something we hide, repress or deny. And so bringing in those belief systems that we hide, repress, or deny. Really looking at, that was good, and there was experiential work with it, which is beyond therapy, because therapy is fabulous. But sometimes things get stuck in our bodies so that really helped open a doorway, so to speak. So that was really huge for me.

Dr. Ron: Then, I guess I'll go ahead and be vulnerable on the show. Then I was speaking about this with you I think a couple of weeks ago, where my wife was, going to go to Peru to teach a food retreat.

Dr. Ron: It was about healing with whole foods. It was more of a deep, a little bit of a cleanse. She was using all the foods of Peru, and we walked through these amazing markets and pick all these amazing vegetables and fruits, and we took people to sacred sites. And Machu Picchu was one of them, and it was beautiful, but I had this vision, I think, six months before she went, and I told her I'm coming, and I'm supposed to meet a guy, and I didn't know who I was supposed to meet. This is a, I think this is the lesson of trust.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Ron: With visions. I really trust them. I may not always understand them, but I do trust them. And so I was like, I'm supposed to meet a spiritual advisor. So what did I do is I went to the mountains of Peru and met a guy, and it was really beautiful, and had some spiritual experiences. I did do some sacred medicine while I was on this retreat so, and it was really beautiful to have some sacred medicine.

Dr. Ron: And it opened a lot of doors that I knew were there, but I didn't know how deep it was. The best analogies I can say is, there are rocks all around you, or little boulders. I was able to lift the boulder and see what was underneath.

Dr. Ron: I saw was on top. Okay, maybe some of that shadow work I've been already dealing with. Then it's like, Well, what's underneath? What's really? How can I really heal this in my heart?

Dr. Ron: So that was really eye-opening, super super eye opening. 

Dr. Ron: And so for the, I would say, for the next like seven months I was moving through so many of my issues. I'd go back to my men's work and be like, I think I'm good on this issue, let's move on. And it was things I was stuck for like a couple of years. I was really stuck, even though I was looking at it. It wasn't, it wasn't really moving. I would talk about it. And it's just like, I'm just talking about that issue over and over again. How many people can relate about talking about the same thing? 

Dr. Ron: I feel like, yeah, yeah, ad nauseam. Sometimes I know it's there.

Dr. Ron: So it just kept going.

Dr. Ron: But then things improved. And then I did get to a challenging year where I felt like it wasn't little rocks. It was huge boulders. I was looking underneath, so that was a really deep year, and I was able to work with this, for lack of a better term, shaman, and he had moved to the States in California, started really working with him.

Dr. Ron: And that was really a lot of deep, deep work, and for me, I never wanted to actually go down that path of, like I never wanted to be a shaman, or any of those things, or even.... I just wanted to use, I wanted to heal myself and look within my own soul and to heal things. 

Dr. Ron: So yeah, so after that, , I actually I did something called the Dieta, where it was a diet.

Dr. Ron: And this diet, you spend a lot of time alone. You spend a lot of time introspecting. You don't drink very much liquid. You don't eat very much food, and it's pretty intense.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: For how long?

Dr. Ron: A lot of crying happens. A lot of praying.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What's the time that you do?

Dr. Ron: You can do it anywhere from 10 days, 12 days to 30 days. I mean, there's some diets that are year.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay. Wow! Alright.

Dr. Ron: Yeah, that you don't do it all in silence. You spend like 2 or 3 months doing it. Then you're in your practices, and then you go back and you do it again for 2 or 3 months.

Dr. Ron: I haven't quite done the year one. Last year I did the 30-day, which was really intense. It was really beautiful. And yeah, I’d do it again. So and for me, it's been, it's been learning about Shamanism and learning about all the tools that they have to offer, all the ancient prayers, because you know, when you speak in a different language that's an ancient language, it has a frequency.

Dr. Ron: That frequency is key, is such a key. Even I know you said the word, I remember learning from Sufism, Allah. And it's like, Oh, it's that double syllable of opening up the heart chakra. So it spoke to me. So learning about some of these prayers in an ancient language was really key for me to learn about that. So that's been a path that I've been on. And still learning. Still, a student of it.

Dr. Ron: And that's been intensely healing. And what it's, how it's also affected me is in the work that I do in my office. So I feel like it's made me more intuitive. It's made me, allowed me to really sit with a lot more, sit with my feelings and not be in reaction.

Dr. Ron: Everyone has an outward how they react. Some people turn inward. Some people hide, some people run away, some people explode.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Some people avoid.

Dr. Ron: Avoid. All those you know. I mean you can name, you can keep going. Everyone has....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm really good at avoiding.

Dr. Ron: Okay, there we go.

Dr. Ron: Yeah, I used to run away. That was my thing. I'd be like, I'm going to step outside for, I'll take a walk. So now it's been a bit. I feel like I can sit in the conversation, even if I'm reactive, I can be there and breathe, and really hear, or in other words, hear from the inside, hear from the world, or hear from the other person who's creating the reaction for me. I'm creating the reaction, not them. But they may be saying some things or doing some things that creates a reaction in me. And so, I feel like the work has allowed me to be really just to sit with it instead of avoid or run, or, etc. 

Dr. Ron: It doesn't mean it's done, but it's really good. So that's what I'll say so far.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I love the fact that you talk about it in terms of process, not as that you have arrived, and that's one of the things that I'll just say really resonates with me, whether it's in terms of emotional healing or physical healing that it hasn't just been like magic dust sprinkled down and then suddenly I was completely healed.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's a process, and I feel like it's a cycle or a spiral. Sometimes it's up. Sometimes it's down, sometimes we're going to the right, sometimes we're going to the left, but generally it's that there is a movement through which we do change, we do increase our capacity to, for example, be present with, be present in the face of difficult emotions.... It's funny that you brought that up, because that, historically, has been a really weak spot for me is to just sit in the face of strong emotion and be present with that, whether in myself or in another, like yeah, no, that was not, that was not my strong suit.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I'm happy to say that, you know, after years of working, doing some, a lot of, spiritual practices and a lot of intentional work, that's changed. My capacity is much different. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: How do you see -- in terms of where you've been and where you are now -- are there other things that you point to in addition to -- yeah, I can contain, or I can sit with these strong emotions that were a point of reactivity for me before -- how else do you see that you've changed over the years of your spiritual seeking?

Dr. Ron: I would say, speaking, my voice has really, I've been always a person that can connect with people one on one. 

Dr. Ron: But you put me in a group, it's been, that's been always a challenge for me. I get shy and withdrawn, and I want to observe people. I feel like I've become the chameleon and just kind of hide. 

Dr. Ron: And so part of my journey the last few years has been able to speak, and even I've been starting to speak on podcasts, including yours, beautiful opportunity, and reconnect. So reconnecting with people from the past and speaking to them. In the past, I mean, like reconnecting and connecting with people also, like even for example, my mom. 

Dr. Ron: I talked to her 4 days a week, but just having that, a deeper connection with her is, how to speak things on a deeper level and having that realness. So that's been, that's been a really big learning. But it's just speaking my truth. That's one thing that, and with that is my voice.

Dr. Ron: I've taken vocal lessons over the last few years just because I wanted to learn how to sing a little bit, and I play the guitar. And so that's been really, really, like the vocal lessons were so many lessons about life. It wasn't about singing.

Dr. Ron: it. I mean it was, but it wasn't, and it was, Okay, how can I really speak my truth in a loving and kind way? Hold my own heart and hold somebody else's.

Dr. Ron: Constant learnings. Because it's like my wife, for example, she has come into her truth of speaking her truth, and shout out to my wife, Amanda Love.

Dr. Ron: She's gained this amazing empowerment to speak her truth. And it's really, really beautiful. It's also challenging, because sometimes I'm a sensitive man. So it's been like, Okay, don't react. How can I say yes, because she's so direct and so like, she won't speak about things very like rash. She'll think about things, and then she'll be like boom, and it cuts with a knife for me. And so it's been like, Okay, she's a beautiful example of speaking of truth. And then I asked her like, Well, can you hold my heart a little bit more?

Dr. Ron: And so really, yeah, so, coming back to speaking the truth, it's really been something I've been learning how to do. And I will say that there is one thing that's helped with that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Ron: This is, I think this is important for anybody out there. This is an option there. There are products out there, flower essences. Okay, flower essences are amazing. Everyone knows the Bach Flower Remedies. They're quite popular out there. What I have discovered in the last few years, there's a company called Lotus Way. I'm going to shout out to them. They're a beautiful company and organization. They're very spiritual. They have all their team do meditations. Wow! 

Dr. Ron: And one thing they do is they have these products that are all flowers, and all you do is you take these little liquid, they taste delicious, a little honey in it, and I love that because some of my herb products don't taste good. So these taste amazing, and they help that spiritual emotional journey, like one product that I took was Divine Truth.

Dr. Ron: Divine Truth was allowing me to really speak. I was like some of these in the beginning, I was like, I don't know. Are these, I’d heard about flower, I mean, I've been working with Bach Flower remedies for many years.

Dr. Ron: And how are these different? And when I started taking them, you take this quiz. So we have the quiz also on our website, the Heal Austin website, and it's like a simple flower quiz where you just look at flowers and you just pick one.

Dr. Ron: So it's just connecting with your brain. And then they ask you a question, and you say yes or no to a quick question. So see if it fits. And then you do all these questions, and my first time I picked a bunch of flower remedies. One of the ones was called Expansive Presence, I remember, and it was about receiving support.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Ron: And I was like, I receive support. I get massages, I get chiropractic, I do spiritual, emotional work. I have a team of employees like, How am I not receiving?

Dr. Ron: And lo and behold, I was at that time trying to create a new website, an e-commerce site, and I was interviewing all these people, and nothing was feeling right. And I was, at that moment I was like, well, I had trust. I was like, I know I'm going to find the right person.

Dr. Ron: But a couple months had gone by with many interviews, nothing happening. But I was taking this flower remedy, and I think it was only within 3 weeks of taking it. All of a sudden the idea started to, ideas started to come through, and I was like, I haven't asked some of my friends who own businesses, who they've used.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, right? Yeah.

Dr. Ron: And I was like, Oh, I mean, some of them don't have e-commerce sites, but these are business owners. They're smart, smart people.

Dr. Ron: So what did I do? I don't usually pick up my phone past 6 pm. So it goes to the docking station. So I went at 8 o'clock. I picked it up, and I started sending all these texts. And of course, somebody had a company that turned out to be the right company. And so, it was really learning how to receive support for me. So all these flower remedies, I feel like they just kind of nudge you.

Dr. Ron: And all the other spiritual practices that others are doing, that I'm doing, they help. This is like a little push that I will kind of say that flower remedies have really helped open my heart to receive support, to open my voice. Right now I'm taking. I'm taking something called Awaken Expression.

Dr. Ron: So as we're talking about this podcast, I'm learning how to speak to others, open my heart and be vulnerable. And it's been a beautiful experience. So really, back to your question, it's really learning how to speak my truth. And I'm always learning how to hold others hearts as I do that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, well, I think you've always had a natural ability to hold others hearts based on my personal experience of being your patient. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think that that's something that you're especially well-suited for. And I also appreciate the fact that you're willing to say, hey, I'm a sensitive man, to be real with that, because it's, I think we live in a culture with, the term is probably overused, but toxic masculinity. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's just like it's often not acceptable to be a sensitive man or a soft-hearted man, and so props to you for being who you are, which is part of what enables you to really help people as deeply as you are, and allows your patients to have the kind of experience that they do. So I want to -- a couple things I want to circle back to. One of them you mentioned is Shamanism.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And you mentioned the sacred language. And I think a lot of listeners are not necessarily going to know what the sacred language is -- also not necessarily going to know what Shamanism is. 

Dr. Ron: Totally.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think that the degree of exposure to that is somewhat lessened than it is to other [spiritual paths]. So I'm hoping that you'll speak to that, and then I want to come back to this intersection of body, emotion, heart, soul, spirit -- you're experiencing in terms of, as a spiritual person, but also as a person who is devoted to help supporting people with their bodies. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think you're uniquely suited to speak to that intersection of spirituality and body or spirituality and emotional health as well as physical health. And so then, hopefully, practices. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I know this is a lot. These are all the things. Goals, right? It's good to have goals.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So let's start with, maybe Shamanism.

Dr. Ron: Yeah. So for me, well, Shamanism is for me is really the study, it's really for me, it's a study of so much. It's a study of nature. It's the study of within. It's a study of healing.

Dr. Ron: It gets thrown around a lot, too, in my world. I hear it everywhere. People, use that term. I'm very careful with that term, because I feel like it takes a lot of devotion and study. I don't want to, for example, I don't want to label myself as a shaman. I am a studier of life and spiritualism and seeker, but it's really a deep dive, and for me a lot of different tribes, especially a lot of the Shaman tribes, they come from, the tribe that I study with is from Brazil.

Dr. Ron: They're in Northwest Brazil, and they're called the Yawa Nawa. And so the Yawa Nawan culture are a native culture, and so, they have, we have so much to learn from them as they have to learn from us. 

Dr. Ron: It's like this beautiful thing of -- they live life in community -- they live in a way that's different than in our world where everything's separate. We all live in our houses, and so they're in true community. They're living in nature. They're living in the jungle. There's hardship there. It's, there's challenges of getting clean water and getting food sources because things get overhunted and farming is challenging. So there is all this thing of trying to be in tune with nature. 

Dr. Ron: So for me, Shamanism is really to study. It's so much of a study on learning things. But also, I feel like the shamans I've encountered, the ones I really respect, are always true healers.

Dr. Ron: So, there’s always that healing aspect of advising others. And the practitioner I work with, the shaman I work with, he's also the leader of his community. So he plays the leader of his community and lead spiritual leader, which is a lot, it's a lot to maintain. 

Dr. Ron: Yeah. So for me, Shamanism is this beautiful, beautiful learning. And a lot of times, they also partake in different medicines of the jungle. So that's the other part of it is sometimes they study in herbs. That's one aspect. They have a lot of different herbs that they study, and some of them also study some of the spiritual medicines. There's a lot of different medicines that they do, and some of them are, I call them psychotropics, so they can be mind-altering. 

Dr. Ron: It's a tool. It's not for everybody. I will say that. And so some of them will study with that. 

Dr. Ron: In the traditional way, what would happen is only the shaman would drink that medicine before he would, because he would have visions and see things. It would allow him to step into that spiritual world and ask questions. 

Dr. Ron: And to me that's like trying to be the vessel -- just trying to be the vessel and connecting with higher force, and to see things. And for me it's always about asking questions, too, because I'm like, Oh, I see this. 

Dr. Ron: And then trying to ask the question to the person in a way that's like, it's not, instead of saying, it's this way.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right.

Dr. Ron: Oh, I'm seeing something. So tell me about this. And all of a sudden it's like it strikes the chord. It's pertaining to why the person is there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And this is the leader is the one who's taking the plant medicine, not all of the participants taking it.

Dr. Ron: Well, that's been in the traditional way. Nowadays it’s different. Nowadays it's the participant and the shaman. So this is, and that could be bad.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's the way I experienced it. I experienced it as the participant.

Dr. Ron: Yeah. And it takes tools. That's the challenge. Like navigating that world is, it can be difficult, because you're trying to navigate. And for me it's all about having conversations.

Dr. Ron: I feel like I'm having a conversation with the spirit of that plant and it's helping me to connect with Higher Source, God, Allah, whatever you want to say. So it's like, Oh, okay. And it's, I'm trying to become that vessel. 

Dr. Ron: Yeah, it's been a big journey, but a lot of that -- in order to even help, because I do healings in circles like this -- it can be very, very -- I feel like it can be life changing. It's been life changing for me when I've received some deep healings like from my spiritual teacher. 

Dr. Ron: It's been like, Wow, I feel that change that lifting. And I also get a lot of insights, because just because you have a healing, which I think is fabulous, what do you do after that? Doesn't matter what kind of healing you receive to me, it's like, what is the message that you need to work with after that, because it can be.... Otherwise, that energy of that old pattern wants to come back.

Dr. Ron: And so maybe they've left you neutral. You're more neutral now, or the slate is clean, or I've let go of all that discomfort or pain or anger. And now I'm like, Great. Is it going to come back? 

Dr. Ron: So that's been, yeah, that's a big part of Shamanism in my world is like really seeing those things and then having the homework for people, for myself, for people receiving that healing, and for myself when I received it.

Dr. Ron: I didn't always receive homework because the practitioner didn't know, but and sometimes I have, and when I have, I feel like I can put it into action.

Dr. Ron: Action steps. That's to me, that's helpful for me as a man, because I like action steps.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Do this, do this, do this.

Dr. Ron: Yeah, I'm like, okay, and that's been.... I will, I will speak about something that happened to me in in one of my diets or dietas, which is one of those 30, it happened in my 30-day dieta last year -- is my father passed away.

Dr. Ron: I want to say, at that moment it was 8 or 9 months before then.

Dr. Ron: And I thought I'd grieve my dad. 

Dr. Ron: And I knew there was a part of me that still, there was still something wrong.

Dr. Ron: And I couldn't cry anymore. There was nothing there. I was like, I know there's still something wrong. There's a piece of my heart that something is, there needs to be a deeper teaching that needs to happen, but I don't know what.

Dr. Ron: And I thought I was just like, maybe I just need enough space and time to grieve, which might have been really true, too.

Dr. Ron: Because in this busy world we get busy with work and family and responsibilities. How many of you take care of others? Oh, my gosh! So with that, what happened is my shaman, my Pajé that's what they call it in in South America, Pajé or Shaman. So he said, he asked me ... Tell me all the things of what your father taught you.

Dr. Ron: And so I went to my tent. I was camping and in nature, and I started to write down all the messages, everything that I learned from my dad. And then I realized I also needed to write down, including that list of what not to do, because those were also learnings, teachings, of like uh oh, this is my judgment of what not to do, but it was still a teaching.

Dr. Ron: I wanted to live my life better, and as most parents out there, they always want their kids to be better. And so, I knew my dad wanted that for me. And so, I started to really take in all of those messages of what to do and what not to do. And then, during one of the ceremonies that we had, I went out by myself, and it was a full moon, and I went out, and I saw this full moon.

Dr. Ron: And I could feel that part of my heart that was like a crescent moon, a sliver, and it was the part of me that in my heart was closed.

Dr. Ron: It was not open.

Dr. Ron: And it was, and it was holding on to some grief. Or it was about my dad. Well, that piece suddenly just started to leave, staring at the moon, releasing, and then I was able to imprint a lot of those old messages.

Dr. Ron: So that's one thing that I really got is writing down all those messages of someone that's passed, and really putting them into my heart.

Dr. Ron: And as that happened, my dad came.

Dr. Ron: And I could hear him.

Dr. Ron: Somewhat kind of see him in the moon. And he said, I'll always be with you.

Dr. Ron: And I've known that because every time I go to my mom's, I go to, like he has a little back porch area he would go to. I always go there and have conversations with him, and I thought I had to go back there to have a conversation with him.

Dr. Ron: For some reason, I don't know, even though I have had some conversations here at my own, my house outside.

Dr. Ron: There was something special about going back there.

Dr. Ron: However, at that moment when I'm in the Dieta under the full moon, having all those messages of what to do and not do, all the sudden it became very clear that those messages went into my heart, and that is the teaching that my dad gave me.

Dr. Ron: And so he's always with me.

Dr. Ron: He doesn't leave me.

Dr. Ron: I don't have a need. I mean, I still go back to my mom's and have a conversation, but there's no need. I don't feel that, I don't have to wait or let things get kind of serious. Or like, I could really use your advice, dad. 

Dr. Ron: So yeah, so that was a really, a beautiful teaching there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It’s beautiful that you had that, to use the same word. But that you had that experience, and that you are able to return to it -- that sense of connection. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I can somewhat relate to that in that after -- for each member of my family, after they passed I went through a period of time where they were visiting in my dreams...

Dr. Ron: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: ...every night.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it was almost like it was an opportunity to reestablish our relationship on a different level....

Dr. Ron: Yeah, I feel like a lot of the healing can happen after they pass.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. 

Dr. Ron: There were times that with my dad that he and I were not on the best terms, let's just say. My dad was a very stoic man, a lot of ways, and didn't really get vulnerable. And so I was always having to pull things out of him to have any sort of conversation. And so I knew there was love there, but there was, also it was challenging. And so, having that, I feel like some of those things can happen. I saw that with my wife when her dad passed. A lot of the healing happened between her and her dad, even though they were close, she had a lot of challenges when she was younger. And so I saw when her dad passed, she did so much healing around it.

Dr. Ron: It's amazing because her dad couldn't do that while he was alive.

Dr. Ron: My dad couldn't do that definitely when he was alive. He couldn't. He couldn't go to some of those places. It just wasn't happening.

Dr. Ron: And I feel like now I can have conversations with him and he can, and he can kind of go there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah, I think that there's -- I've had a teacher say that the veils are lifted -- to talk about death as a gateway, as something that you pass through, not something that's an endpoint, but a gateway, and that it's at that time the veils are lifted -- so that there is the opportunity to interact in a way that is beyond what we experience with our outer senses.

Dr. Ron: Completely, completely. I love, I love that. Yeah. Lifting the veil. That makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Oh, I do want to be conscious of the time, but I want to go back to this intersection of -- when you're talking about your work, when you're talking about Shamanism, you're bringing together nature, you're bringing together spirituality, you're bringing together the body—so there's this, the intersection of several different things for you in terms of plants, nature, spirit, body. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So is there anything that really that you would want to share with people around, especially people that may not necessarily have thought of experiencing spirituality in relation to flowers.... They may not have necessarily thought of the intersection between spirituality and plant or spirituality and my body or spirituality and nature. The moon watching, you know the practice that you said of watching the moon. Anything that you might want to share for folks around that?

Dr. Ron: Yeah. One thing that I really, I tell people, is a practice that I've incorporated is, I sit down and just observe, I sit outside in my back deck, and I just look out.

Dr. Ron: And so it's that quiet time. If you can wake up early, if not, just wake up and go sit out there. A lot of people, we all have our practices, I call them, and I'm like those are all supportive, beautiful practices. But the one thing I often will do is just kind of just sit for 15 minutes and observe.

Dr. Ron: Hear the birds, look at the look at the flowers, the grass, whatever's around you. I think that's a really important time to have our mind be still ... because right after that I go into prayers. And so that's a beautiful thing to do. But kind of really getting still. 

Dr. Ron: Sometimes I even like, if I'm having a question or something I have a challenge with, I'll pose that question, and I'll kind of -- I do this thing where it's a little more shamanic, where I just go, Whoosh! And I blow it out.

Dr. Ron: I have question, and so I'm not stuck in my head about it, because it's really easy to go into a practice, and just think about that in your head. And so kind of blowing it out, and then just observing. It's trying not to get attached to that question, and then it can happen, maybe at the end of observation or in your prayer, after your prayers, your other practices, whatever you do in your breathing, or whatever practices you're doing, stretching movement, whatever it is, it often for me it comes, it comes back.

Dr. Ron: So, having that 15 minutes of just do nothing.

Dr. Ron: It's a big challenge for people. People are so used to like, they come in my office, and I have all these practices, and I'm like, that's great. How long do you just sit?

Dr. Ron: How long do you just sit and try to think of nothing. Maybe it doesn't happen and that's okay. But just try to sit.... It seems so simple, but it, I think it's important. Yeah, I would say that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I love the connections. I'm not one of those people who is enlivened by pointing out the differences. I'm more enlivened by pointing out the commonalities. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And when you talk about -- well earlier, when you were talking about the, I'm not sure I'm going to get this term right, dieta, that to me, I think, Oh, the commonality -- that sounds very much like the practice of fasting. And when you're talking about I'll go, I'm going to go sit on my dock, excuse me, my deck, go sit on the deck and just be in stillness, be in silence and observe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that to me, the connection there I see is in my tradition the first book, the first holy book is thought of as the Book of Nature.

Dr. Ron: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Ron: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To just sit and contemplate nature.

Dr. Ron: ... for me it keeps going, like this is where I can't always have these conversations with many people, but sometimes I mean, I remember in dietas, I started, I started having these conversations with plants. 

Dr. Ron: And that started to happen, it was like, Oh, wow! This is interesting. And having not just a little comment. But having these deeper conversations, which was just like, How is that even possible? How is that possible? And so it's just communing with nature, that's all it is. People commune, and they can commune with nature in all sorts of ways, but it's how to sit still. You can, I feel like you can, and it is that first, it's always a study of how you can, in Shamanism, studying nature. The answers usually are there.

Dr. Ron: The answers are usually there. We just don't know how to see them.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And we don't have the openness to hear in the language of the tree, or hear in the language of the plant or the ant, or whatever the case might be, often because we're so tied to our outer senses and the senses of what it takes to be, to sustain our life in this world.

Dr. Ron: Completely. And if I didn't have that experience, I thought it was an interesting concept, Oh, people hug trees and talk to plants and animals. I'm like, I have no idea what that means. Many years ago I was like I have no idea. That sounds.... I'm open. That sounds interesting, but I also thought it was a little farfetched for my brain. I was like conversations with bees. I was like, I don't understand that. And I'm not saying I have conversations with everything. I think that might be overwhelming. But it is, it is an openness, because then I think it can lead to like the groundedness of Mother Earth so that we can connect on a higher plane with spirituality. That's why I think it's maybe one of your first books. I'm like, well, got to commune with Mother Nature before you get to the next level. So that's I think, that's, even though, like it feels good to go for a hike. It feels good to sit in nature often if it's not 105 degrees.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If you're not under the heat advisory warning that we're currently under in Southern Mississippi.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh my goodness. Alright. Well, it's been a great conversation. I appreciate you being willing to share a bit about your own spiritual journey, about your own relationship to nature and plants and Shamanism, and just how you show up in the world, and what you want to contribute in terms of being of service and helping others. I know that you are doing that. So yeah, just thank you.

Dr. Ron: Thank you so much for having me on having this conversation. Thank you so much.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you for joining us on Beyond Names. Before we go, briefly, just take one breath, one moment of stillness to see if there's something that particularly resonates with you, something that stays with you from this conversation with Dr. Ron.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you find your way home again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, I'd love for you to share it, leave a review, or reach out. Until next time -- May you be light, may you carry your light. May you consciously participate in growing your light. And may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.