No Separation: Spirituality, Therapy, and the Journey of Love

In this heartfelt conversation, Dr. Habīb is joined by psychotherapist and family therapist Vanessa McNamara to explore the deep overlap between spirituality and relationships. From Vanessa’s Irish Catholic upbringing and mystical encounters to her discovery of Sufism, Buddhism, and shamanic traditions, she shares how personal crisis and ego-death opened her to an integrated path of spirit and healing. Together, Habīb and Vanessa reflect on marriage and partner relationships as a crucible for transformation, the courage to face our shadows, and the practice of compassionate self-witnessing. With honesty, humor, and wisdom, they invite us into the sacred work of moving from struggle to presence, from ego to soul, and from separation to connection.

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 14

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Vanessa McNamara

Title: No Separation: Spirituality, Therapy, and the Journey of Love

Description: 

In this heartfelt conversation, Dr. Habīb Boerger is joined by psychotherapist and family therapist Vanessa McNamara to explore the deep overlap between spirituality and relationships. From Vanessa’s Irish Catholic upbringing and mystical encounters to her discovery of Sufism, Buddhism, and shamanic traditions, she shares how personal crisis and ego-death opened her to an integrated path of spirit and healing. Together, Habīb and Vanessa reflect on marriage and partner relationships as a crucible for transformation, the courage to face our shadows, and the practice of compassionate self-witnessing. With honesty, humor, and wisdom, they invite us into the sacred work of moving from struggle to presence, from ego to soul, and from separation to connection.

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names. I'm Dr. Habīb. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the divine Yahweh, Allah, Elohim, Brahman, great spirit, higher power, or you're still searching for language that fits, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality and daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with the introduction of our conversation partner for this episode. I'm happy to have Vanessa McNamara as our conversation partner. I've known Vanessa for many years. We actually were in my first travel through graduate school long ago.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Vanessa and I were both in the graduate school at the same time at Texas State. Vanessa is a spouse, a mother, a stepmother, sister, daughter, aunt.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: She's also a psychotherapist and family therapist with extensive experience and training in both individual and couples therapy, and she's passionate about relationships, spiritual work, and about the intersection or the overlap between therapy and spirituality.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To learn more about Vanessa and her work, please visit mcnamaratherapy.com. So, Vanessa, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Vanessa: Oh, thank you, thank you, this is a lot of fun.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, would you -- as per usual -- would you please introduce yourself by telling us a little bit about who you are and your spiritual story? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Where you originated, sort of, spiritually, or your process of journeying with your spirituality, your spiritual engagement, or lack thereof. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, any and all that you feel comfortable sharing.

Vanessa: When I listen to your podcast, this is, like, part of the… well, I don't know what the favorite part is, but I like hearing the guests' spiritual stories. So, I'm excited to have my chance. Thank you.

Vanessa: So I was born in Ireland, I was born in Ireland in 1970, so there. And, to a very Catholic family.

Vanessa: And very Catholic and big, kind of, what you'd imagine, Irish Catholic family. And what I liked about Catholicism then was that 45 minutes where my nervous system could relax during Mass. Beforehand might be chaotic, afterwards might be tough, but we had that 45 minutes.

Vanessa: And then also it was Ireland, and so there's folklore, and superstition, and the winded howl, and someone would say, oh, the banshees… can you hear the banshee? Or, you know, rainbow, where's the leprechaun? Going to get the pot of gold. Selkies in the ocean.

Vanessa: I like to think of it as, like my Father Sky, Mother Earth kind of first years in the world holding, you know? And, and so I, yeah, Divine Masculine, Divine Feminine.

Vanessa: And I developed a pretty rich inner life. 

Vanessa: There was, it was a big family, but all brothers, and so I spent a lot of time by myself and outside.

Vanessa: And that really served me in many ways, but I kept my spiritual life kind of separate.

Vanessa: And so fast forward, we moved to… America to Texas, yeah, I'll stop to say, like, in my 20s, I'm, yeah, getting that master's in English, and that's when we were both Tas for Dr. Grayson.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And I remember we would grade papers and go to dinner. How much of this do you remember?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Very little. 

Vanessa: It's okay. That's okay. But, I do remember being at Mama Cita's. And we were having dinner, and we're talking about the existence of God.

Vanessa: And I remember you saying, and you said this on a podcast, one of the episodes I listened to, I remember you saying, if there is a God, first you're arguing that there's no God.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wow.

Vanessa: And then you said, well, if there is one, I don't like Him. And I don't want anything to do with them.

Vanessa: But it was, I remember just thinking it was fascinating, because, there's drama, and it's grad school, and you wanted to talk about, is there a God? What's the purpose of life? Like, these things, you know, not even through the literature all the time, just straight. But anyway...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: That's my primary memory.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's awesome, because I don't remember that at all, and I don't remember feeling that, I mean, I can totally see myself saying, yeah, if there's a God, I don't like Him, but in my memory, it was more along the lines of if God exists, it's like, I'm going to reject Him because I feel like He's rejected me, you know? Like, that kind of dynamic of -- and I've seen that play out in so many instances in people that I've met where they've had early childhood trauma that's been so painful that they felt abandoned by God, or rejected by God, and so then they carry that in such a way that they have, like, well, He wasn't there for me, so I'm going to be… then He's not there at all, or that kind of thing -- 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I definitely remember having that, kind of going through many years of that kind of thinking, but also just the fact that I brought it up, to me, is very telling, that I must have been struggling with it even before I remember struggling with it, or even before I remember really thinking about it too much. So, thank you for sharing that tidbit of our past.

Vanessa: Yeah. Clearly.

Vanessa: And I think it was complex like that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Alright, so then, fast forward a few years, back to my spiritual story, fast forward a few years, I'm, I get, I marry a Catholic man, have the 3 kids in 5 years, and everything's going fine, except there's a crisis, which is that the marriage really wasn't viable. Not really.

Vanessa: And when I turned to spiritual resources, well, religious resources, I got the “try harder,” right? You know, forgive more, try harder. 

Vanessa: And I respect that. It just really wasn't, when I looked into the depths of my being, when I looked for my, talked to my higher self, I wasn't getting that. I was actually getting images of, like, Christ's crucifixion.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: And there was this wonderful esoteric bookstore. I'm in Austin, Texas, and there was this, at the time, wonderful little bookstore near my house, and I would go over there and read

Vanessa: Paramahansa Yogananda, Rudolf Steiner, like, anything I could get my hands on. And I started opening up spiritually.

Vanessa: And learning that, yeah, maybe, right, getting divorced was my walking. That was my ego death, letting go of that identity.

Vanessa: I remember there was a Tarot card, traveling tarot card reader there.

Vanessa: And I sat down, and he said, what's your question? And I was like, well, should I stay on my marriage or not?

Vanessa: And he said, look, the cards are going to tell you to stay. The cards always tell you to stay. And I was like, okay. And my ego was actually kind of glad about that. I don't want to go through divorce. I don't want to have my kids go to two houses; I don't want to I don't want to do that stuff.

Vanessa: I want to continue to be a good girl, essentially, right? A good Catholic girl, but a good girl. 

Vanessa: And he, yeah, he pulled the cards, and he was like, oh my god, no, that that thing's got to end. So that was interesting.

Vanessa: But it was my walking, right? It was an ego death to face the end of that, and step into the unknown, felt very held by the divine.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: Despite sort of, everything that was going on the outside.

Vanessa: Sometimes I say, like, death, disease, or divorce, right? They'll be the things that blow everything up, so Allah can have us. 

Vanessa: So after that I think I've found the Sufi path and met Sidi [Shaykh Muhammad Sa’id al-Jamal ar-Rifa’i ash-Shadhuli].

Vanessa: And so now, I’m closer to 40, probably 20 years since I, not 20 years since I'd seen you, but, like, 15 came much to my surprise when I walk into All Faiths Chapel on Lamar, in Austin, and you were there in this small, obscure tariqa of Sufism, And I'm like, What?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What? Him again?

Vanessa: But, yeah, so yeah, I still consider myself, I've done enough Buddhism, Catholicism, Sufism, shamanism, I consider myself all of it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. So, for our listeners, Sidi is the Sufi Sheikh through which we learned about Sufism and studied Sufism.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, and then, the follow-up question, I think you just said you consider yourself all of it?

Vanessa: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, does that mean that you don't identify as being in a particular tradition, you identify as sort of being, that your path is inclusive of the different traditions? Is that, or would you not even try and put your...?

Vanessa: That's good, I'm glad you said that.

Vanessa: People said, well, you can't really be in that one because you're that one. I'm like, nope, I'm all that, and I'm all that, which, I don't know, maybe that's, that's just how I think of it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That reminds me of the, and I'm not going to get this right, but there's a Rumi poem that's called One Song.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's basically conveying that, there’s so many voices out there, singing so many different things, but it's one song. Yeah.

Vanessa: Yes, and you know, I only saw Sidi probably 6 times, but when I did, every time, for some reason, he's banging on the ground saying, no separation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And I think that that was something, yeah, that's what I got.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I have a memory of him with a gentleman who was/is, Native American, Indigenous, and he talked to Sidi about Sufism, and I remember Sidi saying, “same, same!” 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: “Same, same.” And in his broken English, for lack of a better way of saying it, he was conveying, that there's commonality underneath all of these -- not to say that there aren't important differences in theology and so on, but underneath there is this sameness, so, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay, so you brought up some pretty big topics there.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, the first one that I want to get to is just a question that you, I think maybe you were speaking about your childhood in Ireland, and you said something about your spirituality being separate.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Can you tell me more about what you mean by that?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then…

Vanessa: Yeah, that goes into the....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then as a follow-up, how does that look, how is it different today? Like, what did you mean by that for then, and then what about today?

Vanessa: I think I just kept my relationship with God to myself.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: Right? And I was kind of in communication with what I knew to be God inside myself, my higher self, my Buddha nature, my Christ energy, whatever. But it seemed dangerous to share it with people.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: And, and so this, your question's time is good, because it's kind of what, like, the integrating of that into my everyday life has been a big part of this part of my adulthood.

Vanessa: In my work, my work actually really lends itself to it.

Vanessa: There's a hunger for the soul, for the places people can go to feel more connected to their soul, I think, and that can happen in the therapy room.

Vanessa: And, and so that is a place where the two meet for me, within me, right? 

Vanessa: Because really, unconditional positive regard or, really caring for this person in front of me is the deep spiritual work, right? 

Vanessa: Non-judgment, non-resistance, accepting what, accepting the moment as it is, no matter what it is.

Vanessa: So I think, I think that answers it, but then another aspect of that is in relationship.

Vanessa: So that first marriage had the outer look of being a religious union.

Vanessa: But I don't know, I think because of my upbringing, being really kind and loving and patient with the people that you live with wasn't emphasized. Right?

Vanessa: So it's that, like, show up at Mass, do the sacraments, that's, and that was just mine, there are many beautiful, beautiful Catholics out there, and the Center for Contemplative Action in Albuquerque's doing big work. There's lots of… so I don't… I'm not trying to suggest that there's anything wrong with Catholicism, it's just my family culture.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And so some of that hypocrisy, really, I didn't… I didn't know what to do with, except to know that I felt like I was hearing truth but you didn't really do that in your relationships. In my relationships, I let my parts take over, right? I let my guarded parts take over, my protective parts take over. Sometimes my inner child parts are taken over. That's what I do in relationship. 

Vanessa: And that's… and so…in marriage, we… or… civil union, long-term partnership, we talk about three stages, right? There's the honeymoon stage, the beginning.

Vanessa: I have a trainer who talks about that as the love without knowledge stage. We don't really know the other person. We think we do, but…

Vanessa: And it goes into the power struggle stage, right? And this can be.…

Vanessa: Anyway, the power struggle stage, which, that trainer, Terry Real, calls the, knowledge without love stage. Right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: Really, we know this person, but we're like, hmm…

Vanessa: And… and to get through, and so if your spiritual walking is to stay in this relationship and get through it, then you want to move into that third stage, which is the vintage love or unconditional love stage.

Vanessa: Like, this is the real deep acceptance of another one of God's beings with their parts.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Right? And this is the crucible for me, and for many people.

Vanessa: Right, it's in that second stage that power struggle, that… like, it can be such a dark night of the soul, it can really be a, like, Oh my god, I made a huge mistake.

Vanessa: Right, it can be hard on the dark.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: So… That's… that's the work.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's the work.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think this is such a wonderful topic, the intersection of spirituality and relationship, because it gets to, like, how do we live spirituality in our daily life, how we live our spirituality moment to moment, how we live our spirituality in every interaction, not only in our relationship to ourselves, but in relationship to the stranger when we go to the grocery store, and the bank, and so on, but also, like, in the most pivotal relationships of our lives, in our, life partnerships, our relationship to our families, and it's just inestimably important, and I do not think that I could be…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, one, I wouldn't be here without the spiritual… the spiritual path in terms of, like, I don't, I honestly… as I've shared in other podcasts on a somewhat limited basis, I've had some chronic health challenges, and I really feel like that it's because of my spiritual life that my body has been given, kind of, the chance to continue.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because I feel like it's the heart and the soul has, and my experience through spiritual practice has been so enriching that it has buoyed the failing of my of my physical body. So one, I don't think I would physically be here, but then two, I couldn't be, I couldn't have I think moved through all of the traumas of my childhood through therapy alone. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And this is one of the reasons I talk about I feel like it's so important to carry… excuse me, care for body, mind, heart, soul, and not stop with body, mind. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And that if we don't bring the heart and the soul into the picture, I feel like we're leaving out something essential. So, I definitely don't feel like I could have made as much progress in my own personal journey in terms of personal transformation, in terms of personal healing, moving through old traumas, if it weren't for spiritual practice -- committed daily spiritual practice.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then also just relationship-wise, I know that when I, and I hope my beloved wife doesn't mind me talking about this, but when we got married, I still very much was carrying some of that association of love and abuse, or the association of emotions and abuse. Like, if there were strong emotions present, then my body was telling me that I was in danger, that my life was in danger, that it was like saying, abort, abort, abort, you know?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And only through my spiritual practices was I able to arrive at that place of just bowing my ego.

Vanessa: That's it. That's exactly it. That is how you get from Stage 2 to Stage 3.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, and just being present, and...

Vanessa: Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And just, this moves me to tears, but just getting to that place when she's experiencing strong emotions, that I can just be with her, you know? I don't have to change anything, I don't have to fix it, but just to be with her in that, and hold a loving space in the midst of those strong emotions. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You have no idea what a transformation that is, from who I was when we were in graduate school however many years ago to the person who can be in the face of strong emotions, and just be present. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And just hold… hold the space. You know, like, that is only possible through devoted spiritual practice. So, what… does that trigger any… any of those things, trigger things that you want to speak to, or respond to, or… yeah?

Vanessa: Yeah, you're speaking it. That's how you get from Stage 2 to stage 3. Like, and so Stage 2 is that is the power struggle, or the, like, what am I doing here? Can I do this?

Vanessa: And, you know, in every relationship, it's harmony, disharmony, repair. That's happening on the micro and the macro, right? Even, you know, it can happen 10 times in a meal, you know, in a dinner. Harmony, disharmony, repair, as you go through that in conversation.

Vanessa: But when you're in the disharmony, like, the intense emotion, right, that's the spiritual work. That's the time.

Vanessa: Being in nature, it's not so hard to be spiritual, and what I mean by spiritual is, like, of the spirit, right? Getting, like you said, getting out of the ego. Going into the heart. Going into the inner… the inner anchor.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: That so often comes from real self-love, right? So part of this is, it's knowing all of myself.

Vanessa: And when I can, when I can accept the flaws in myself and love my shadow. I can do it now for my beloved more easily, right, for my partner.

Vanessa: So, you kind of spoke to that, too, that, like, there's a self-love piece, and then a piece about containing the other person. That's high level. That's amazing.

Vanessa: But that's it. That's how you get from – it’s presence, it's knowing your nervous system, knowing your triggers...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: ...loving yourself through the triggers.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Somatic practice is such a big thing these days.… And it almost seems like it's become in vogue to talk about trauma.

Vanessa: Yeah, I see that.

Vanessa: There’s something really important here, right? And so everyone's…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And yet, I think the thing that you're speaking to that is so important, and that is common amongst the various traditions, is the relationship that we have within ourselves to our own egos.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You referred to your divorce as ego death.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then you talked about the importance, or I guess we both sort of approached the topic of the importance of bowing the ego in terms of being in relationship with others, that there's this aspect, and I've seen that, that is common in different traditions, and it doesn't even really matter if you're talking about a purely psychological approach, like Internal Family Systems therapy. If you're going to talk about your various parts of your personality, and then your higher self, which I think in IFS, Internal Family Systems therapy is, I don't, does he use self, or higher self?

Vanessa: Yeah, they just say Self.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: With a capital S. He capitalizes it, right?

Vanessa: Oh yeah, it's the divine within, right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, there's this commonality, whether you're talking about a pure psychological approach, or you're talking about Buddhism, or you're talking about Sufism, that there's this, that part of a spiritual walking is in our how we interact and how we are in relationship with our own egos.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And is the ego in charge? Or do we hope for that part within ourselves, whether we call that part Self, or we would call it the sacred within, or the inner, I think you used the term inner anchor....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Regardless of the terminology that we use for that, the reality or the commonality is do we become into relationship with that as much as or more than, we are in relationship with our ego.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hopefully more, right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right, but we have to first at least intend that.

Vanessa: And see the ego, right? We have to go into consciousness and witness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Witness, in… in my marriage now, and the walking now is… is to stay.

Vanessa: I've, you know, I've seen some things in the nooks and crannies about myself that I… I wouldn't… I wouldn't have… I don't know, that I… that relationship, of course, brings up to look at, and places to....

Vanessa: I'll give you an example. Like … I talked about harmony, disharmony, and repair, right? And the real intimacy can sometimes come between disharmony and repair.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: And what I noticed just a few years ago was that I was… we… we do our harmony, disharmony repair. 

Vanessa: But there was a part of me never fully repairing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: So subtle. This is, like, maybe we were repairing. 

Vanessa: And, you know, we'd hug afterwards, but I would hug not that tight.

Vanessa: You know what I mean? Like, or… I just… I had a variety of ways, and I don't even think that my… the light of my consciousness was on it until I've really slowed down and reflected, right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: But there was… or maybe I'd just say that one little nice thing, but it was a little bit to where I was just one-up. I'm just going to be one-up, like just this much. Right? And why was I doing that? 

Vanessa: Because I was protecting myself, because I didn't fully trust, right? It felt safer.

Vanessa: Childhood and adult experiences, and even experiences in one's own relationship, if the relationship's been long, and there's been some… some… some pain, you know, some really painful experiences, all of those things had me to where I… I just didn't trust completely, you know, being power with him.

Vanessa: And, yeah, so it's… so it's, like, the light of consciousness just keeps going into… to pull these things up, and in relationship, they just really come up.

Vanessa: And it’s important that I see it. And not shame myself.

Vanessa: But… Okay. Yeah. I am doing this thing.

Vanessa: We talk about, or I talk about the… the U-turn.

Vanessa: So if the relationship is in that second stage. Like, you turn… you turn in the moment when, like, there's tension and things are flaring. You turn means not… I'm not looking at my partner, you know, which is what we tend to do, is like… right, like they're not showing up for me, they're not seeing me, they're not caring enough about me, you know, they're selfish, whatever. You turn it. Look here.

Vanessa: And, and then really look. And look with the kind, gentle eyes of God, right? Look at yourself.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That's so important, I feel like we should just sit with that for a second.…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And again, that idea of taking the U-turn is present in different… different traditions. It's in IFS, to bring up IFS again.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But the importance of you… you also mentioned -- with kindness and with love. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's important if we want to practice mindfulness, or if we want to practice presence, or if we want to just practice relationship health, to learn to, when we are going outward, just to paraphrase what you're, what I'm hearing from you, is when our attention is going outward, to invite ourselves to turn our attention inward, with a soft, compassionate, kind, loving witnessing of what's happening in our own minds, in our own bodies, in our own hearts.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And from that place, then we can be in a more authentic relationship with our true self.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, yeah, thank you for bringing up that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It reminds me of Jamal Rahman, who uses the term compassionate self-witnessing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's not easy. It's not easy to be honest with ourselves about ourselves.

Vanessa: That's right. The shadow work is the, oh no, not that. Right, that's…

Vanessa: That's where we want to bring the light into the, like, anything but that?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Not to belabor the point, but there are… are there any particular suggestions? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I know it's not easy, even if people who have devoted their lives to spirituality, it doesn't necessarily make compassionate self-witnessing or self-awareness easy. Any suggestions or any…?

Vanessa: Yeah, so that's kind of the -- so you said, devoted their lives to spirituality doesn't make that easy. And I'm kind of wanting to reframe this, like relationship… it's not necessarily the intersection, but, like, there's such an overlap.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: And so that… that brings me back to sort of that beginning where I said, like, I kept my spirituality to myself, or it was in this separate place.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And really, having both. I want to have my deep, inner, rich life.

Vanessa: And be able to see some of the, like and lovingly see the darker places in myself with acceptance too.

Vanessa: I think that's the… that's the… like… I'm only one person with her experience, but that's what I see happening.

Vanessa: It might be, like, the gift of what's happening right now, somehow, is, like…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: You know, as… as… we're looking, we're looking, and… and… and the darkness is, is, like, getting exposed and we want world peace.

Vanessa: We've got to have peace in our, you know, in our living rooms, in our bedrooms.

Vanessa: And that's where we can do something about it.

Vanessa: And, you know, it's really important to me that I'm not, sort of here, just saying, try harder, work harder to people who are in relationships and trying, because there's so much, so much out there of that.

Vanessa: But what I'm… what I'm wanting to do is, like, say, there is… there is hope. Kind of slow down. Slow down.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And, like… Don't be afraid to, like, look… look at yourself and love yourself.

Vanessa: And it's through that deeper, unconditional sort of love and acceptance of yourself that you'll be able to do it for others fully.

Vanessa: Did I answer your question?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, and I'm going to offer my own answer.

Vanessa: Okay, cool. Well, what you said inspired me. It made me remember in a lot of the courses that I've taught, I encourage people to engage in noticing and nurturing. So, and that's just my way of… my terminology for compassionate self-witnessing and self-care. It's just notice what's going on -- when you're… when you're experiencing something in your body, when you're experiencing something emotionally, when your thoughts are spinning, whatever, but just notice what's going on with your mind, body, heart, and when you're not okay, acknowledge that there's a flag on the play. So, go into timeout. And in that timeout, nurture.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What does your body need? Do you need to engage in a somatic practice to bring some grounding and centering and sense of safety to your body. What does your mind need? What does your body need? What does your heart need? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm increasingly finding that what I need is to bring a soulfulness to the daily.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whatever daily activity it is, whether it's washing dishes, or whether it's dealing with a particular challenge, what helps me and sustains me through whatever that challenge might be, and what brings a more meaningful, more meaning, I should say, to the ‘mundane’ activity, mundane quote-unquote, mundane activities, is to bring soulfulness to it.

Vanessa: Is that like...?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm increasingly trying to foster that awareness of, for me, my own sense of where my soul is, and if I'm doing a practice, to bring that practice together with that awareness of my soul, in whatever the daily activity is.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm not sure if that made any sense, but….

Vanessa: That's right, that's right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. And it makes my prayers deeper, like, if I set the intention of, if I'm saying this prayer right now, or if I'm doing this recitation, if I'm doing whatever, if I set the intention of having full acceptance of what's happening and then bringing that into my soul, that particular prayer or that particular recitation into my soul, then that changes my experience fundamentally.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: That full acceptance, I think, is really key, too, right?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That full acceptance.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's such a -- I love the Buddhism emphasis on equanimity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And… I think it's Sufism, or in Islam, or even in any of the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity, there's this emphasis on peace. What is it to carry it and live with Salaam, Shalom, Shanti.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What is it to carry that in our hearts and our… in our bodies. And to do that, acceptance is the key.

Vanessa: Yeah, right, acceptance of being triggered, so if we're not in equanimity, Because our beloved came in and said something we didn't want to hear.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Triggered something, right, and the past and the present get mixed up in that moment, it's okay. That's where… that's the deep acceptance of… whoa, yeah, I just, like, I just felt that whoosh. I just feel this unexplainable anger, or…annoyance. You know, the irritability.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And… what do I do with that?

Vanessa: Well, don't shame yourself. Don't shame yourself, don't feel guilty, but do investigate it. Like, give it attention.

Vanessa: Right now it needs attention.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I like the word investigate.…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It reminds me of one of my teachers who says, every emotion is an invitation. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's an invitation to grow more strongly attached to your ego self or it's an invitation to travel deeper to your true self, to your higher self, and to, a Sufi might say, intimacy with the Beloved, capital B. So, each invitation….

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But that starts with acceptance. Do you accept getting triggered, and do you accept the emotional response that regardless of who you are, or how long you've been practicing whatever your journey is, you still have, because we're still human?

Vanessa: And you… yeah, you… and it… like you said, it's… it's… it's there to tell you something, teach you something.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's there to… it's an invitation, like I just said, it's an invitation to go to who we truly are, to realize who we truly are, to be authentic, but end up being authentic in that place that brings the light of the soul together with the ego. Yeah.

Vanessa: One thing that's worked for me better than most things is the present moment.

Vanessa: Present moment awareness, and practicing present moment awareness, like, if I stop, and go into the present moment. It's… kids are in it all the time, right? And you're joyful and playing, but… you know, there's a joy in it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: In the depth of each moment. Anyway. And so, that has helped me, when I'm getting dysregulated.

Vanessa: And there's, you know, a certain amount of mindfulness necessary to kind of notice I'm getting dysregulated, and then, like, okay, I'm going to… I'm going to…come into the moment right now, and actually, everything's okay.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Right.

Vanessa: But there's… there are many ways to do it.

Vanessa: Calling on, calling on spiritual resources, like, whatever works for someone's own nervous system.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, you mentioned, going back to the idea of spirituality both being so integral to how we are in relationship, but also that idea of spirituality as separate -- to go back to that comment that you made about your experience in your early life with spirituality as separate. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think that so many of us -- or all of us -- we've all had pain. We've all had trauma.

Vanessa: That's right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: We've all had places of, where we're like, okay, I need to constrict in order to protect myself.

Vanessa: That's right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then… but when we're talking about this acceptance and bringing together the ego and the soul, there's some of that protectiveness and that keeping separate of that we may have done with our hearts and our spirituality, that we have to loosen a little bit. Like, there has to be some sort of relaxing or opening in order for that to happen.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, do you have any tips, or any favorites for how you encourage that opening, or that relaxing, for that journey to the true self, that journey, that inward journey.

Vanessa: It's going to be a lot of what we've been speaking about. Hmm.

Vanessa: But you're right on. It is that relaxing our guards, right, our protective separateness from the person, and being more comfortable with our vulnerability to get to the intimacy.

Vanessa: So, the ways, like, every person's really unique. Relationships are unique. Like, there's the general broad strokes, right? But there's the uniqueness. But this goes back to learning yourself, giving yourself the attention enough to say, oh, yeah. This is that guard I keep up.

Vanessa: It's really hard for me to not have power, maybe, because in childhood I didn't… didn't have power, so I always need a little…

Vanessa: You know, it's really hard for me to not… that was… you can see that's my work, right? It's really hard for me to not feel like I've got power, which translated into a little bit of guardedness.

Vanessa: And certainly translated into not wanting to be vulnerable and open with my beloved, you know, after… after that honeymoon stage.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Yeah, so, It goes back… I think it's what we're saying, like, really gently, with soft, loving eyes, look at those places in yourself. For whatever reason you decided to pick up something that would protect you.

Vanessa: And… you're carrying that now.

Vanessa: And it would be better if you let that go now.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's not always easy.

Vanessa: I think it's the… some of the hardest stuff any of us do.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think of, I probably have shared this in other podcasts, but in spiritual formation courses that I've taught, I've shared that I think of the spiritual journey, or the process of personal transformation and personal growth as being a process of… I call it the Rs.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So the first R is remembering. So, depending on your tradition, it's, for a Christian, it's remembering your Christ nature. For a Muslim, remembering Allah. So whether it's remembering Elohim, or whether you're coming from a more secular position, remembering your higher self, or your true self, or remembering your Buddha nature.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: First R is remembering, then the second is reading. So, for me, reading can be reading the signs of sacredness wherever they are, so in yourself, in others, in other people, in all of the creation. So reading, including reading, literal reading, reading the sacred texts for your tradition or no tradition. So remembering, reading, reflecting, so you have to spend some time in reflection.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And then, receiving and returning. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, a lot of what we're talking about reminds me of the receiving aspect, of, if we can't open to receive love and light, then it makes it difficult for us to give love and light if we're not receiving love and light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, for me, I like to espouse the importance of establishing that relationship with your truer self, or higher self, or the divine, or the Beloved, or God, in accordance with your tradition or no tradition, in terms of allowing there to be an intimacy of love, an intimacy of receiving in your deepest self that sense of love, and that sense of the light that each of us carry, or that sense of the sacredness that each of us carry, or if you're from a theistic tradition, of the divine breath, or the divine fragrance, or the divine spirit, or the divine essence that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I feel like that receiving part is what we're getting to a lot in this conversation around how do we receive the love and light, in order to, the last R, return, in order to return to our true selves and realize the potential that each of us was created with.

Vanessa: Yep, that's right, all of those. And return, in relationship to our partner.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: to loving relationship with…. Yeah.

Vanessa: Yeah. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, a relationship of… of just holding the love for each other, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, how do you, given all of this, how do you experience the sacred?

Vanessa: I love this question.

Vanessa: I mean, really integrated. I think. 

Vanessa: This is where… my, since… my work helps.

Vanessa: People say, Why would you want to do that? You just going to listen to people's problems all day. And it's like, oh, it's so, like, I see the spirit, like, working so that… that.... 

Vanessa: Jung talked about, like, when… when people… whether it's, it's a couple, like, relationship work, or individual work, or whatever, but the universe will help you, right? Support you. The… the signs start happening.

Vanessa: And, so someone has endeavored to go higher. 

Vanessa: And, and… you know, It's… it's… it starts to be evident.

Vanessa: Maybe it's the light of the soul that starts coming through. Now there is more, like, honesty. And alignment in life, and more balance, and more love.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Vanessa: I have to keep up my practices, too.

Vanessa: Chanting is… where I purify, you know? Like, that's…That's the purification usually for me.

Vanessa: And… but I think it's fun, I think drum circles are fun, I think all that, you know, it's fun.

Vanessa: But, but I think the… there's… The integration of… of… spirit in my life is facilitated by my job. Maybe I said that. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah. And your job has helped you -- it sounds to me like, if I… if I may say so, it sounds like the… that the integration that you find is facilitated by your professional work, has facilitated your personal….

Vanessa: Definitely a feedback loop.

Vanessa: I don’t know which goes where, but yeah. Uh huh.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: That's right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, any parting words of wisdom, or any parting recommendations in terms of spiritual practice, or any closing thoughts that you would like to share?

Vanessa: Well, first I want to thank you so much. Really, like I said earlier, this… the integrity of the, of the podcast, I find hard to find other places, because it's so wide and open.

Vanessa: And, like, the allowing, which of course is something in relationship that's pretty important, but the allowing for it all to come together.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Vanessa: And still be… you know, I'm putting my hands up, like, and still be high is… is a rare and very beautiful thing. So I really want to thank you for that, sincerely, sincerely.

Vanessa: And, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you're already doing it. You're already doing it, you know? So you know, good for you. You know, like… That's it. But, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Vanessa, for being here, and for the great conversation.

Vanessa: That was a good conversation, so good to see you again.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Likewise. It's nice to reconnect. That's one of the beautiful things about the podcast too, is reconnecting with people that I haven't seen in many years. 

Vanessa: Blast!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: A blast from the past.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, thank you to all listeners for joining us on Beyond Names. Before we go, briefly, just take one breath and reflect for just a moment on what stayed with you from this conversation with Vanessa.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage. May you grow in compassionate, loving, kind, self-witnessing that allows your heart to fill with love, and fill with light -- that overflows to all those that you meet.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you find your way again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the divine, back home to the sacred, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, and comment.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me, please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If you would like to connect with Vanessa, her website, again, is mcnamaratherapy.com.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Until next time, may you be light, may you carry light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.