The Unbroken Chain: Discovering Equanimity and Spiritual Lineage with Margaret Cullen

What happens when a meditation retreat unveils a hidden ancestral truth—and transforms how we understand peace itself? In this intimate conversation, Dr. Habib welcomes psychotherapist, meditation teacher, and author Margaret Cullen, whose upcoming book Quiet Strength: Find Peace, Feel Alive, and Love Boundlessly Through the Power of Equanimity explores the heart of balance amid life’s joys and sorrows.

Margaret shares the extraordinary story of discovering her rabbinical lineage through a powerful spiritual vision, how Buddhist practice became the living expression of that heritage, and why equanimity is not detachment but a dynamic dance of resilience, compassion, and humor. Together, she and Dr. Habib reflect on mysticism, the healing of mother wounds, and the possibility of living with an open heart—even when it’s breaking.

This episode includes a short equanimity practice at 46:30. Enjoy!

Transcript

Beyond Names: Spirituality for Anyone and Everyone

YouTube Channel: Beyond Names with Dr. Habib Boerger

YouTube handle: @BeyondNamesPodcast

Episode: 22

Host: Dr. Habib Boerger

Conversation Partner: Margaret Cullen

Title: The Unbroken Chain: Discovering Equanimity and Spiritual Lineage with Margaret Cullen

Description: 

What happens when a meditation retreat unveils a hidden ancestral truth—and transforms how we understand peace itself? In this intimate conversation, Dr. Habib welcomes psychotherapist, meditation teacher, and author Margaret Cullen, whose upcoming book Quiet Strength: Find Peace, Feel Alive, and Love Boundlessly Through the Power of Equanimity explores the heart of balance amid life’s joys and sorrows.

Margaret shares the extraordinary story of discovering her rabbinical lineage through a powerful spiritual vision, how Buddhist practice became the living expression of that heritage, and why equanimity is not detachment but a dynamic dance of resilience, compassion, and humor. Together, she and Dr. Habib reflect on mysticism, the healing of mother wounds, and the possibility of living with an open heart—even when it’s breaking.

This episode includes a short equanimity practice at 46:30. Enjoy!

Transcript:

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Welcome to Beyond Names, I'm Dr. Habib. This is a space for spiritual seekers and soulful misfits, for the curious and the committed, for those grounded in a tradition, and for those who are not sure what they believe.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whether you call the Divine God, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, Elohim, Great Spirit, Higher Power, you're non-theistic, or you are still searching for language that fits, in all cases, you are welcome here.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Together, we'll explore the intersection of spirituality in daily life, the wisdom of many traditions, and the ways we return to our true selves, to our source, to the light that each of us carry within.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm so glad you're here. Let's begin with introduction of our conversation partner for this episode, Margaret Cullen. Margaret Cullen is a licensed psychotherapist. She's the founder of Compassion Core and founding faculty of the Compassion Institute.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: She also serves on the Advisory Board of the Global Compassion Coalition.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Her book, Quiet Strength: Find Peace, Feel Alive, and Love Boundlessly Through the Power of Equanimity, comes out in March, and is available for pre-order now.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To learn more about Margaret and her work, please visit margaretcullen.com.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Margaret, thank you so much for being here.

Margaret Cullen: Thank you for inviting me, Habib. It's really an honor.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, it was such a treat to get to know you a bit when you were in the process of working on your book, so it's nice to reconnect. Would you please tell us, just introduce yourself to our listeners by giving us a little bit of your spiritual story?

Margaret Cullen: I was pretty excited to see that as a possible question in this interview. I don't think I've ever discussed it in any public forum before, so that's a little scary, but also exciting for me, because it's very, very meaningful to me.

Margaret Cullen: And as I told you in our conversation before you started recording, it's a bit of a long story.

Margaret Cullen: I'm going to try to make it as digestible as I can.

Margaret Cullen: I was born, in Connecticut.

Margaret Cullen: And I was confirmed in a Protestant church.

Margaret Cullen: And my maiden name was Margaret Ann Nelson.

Margaret Cullen: And… I never really felt like that identity fit very well for me.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: Then, fast forward to my early 30s. I was on a meditation retreat.

Margaret Cullen: I had been meditating for several years at that point already. This was a 10-day silent retreat.

Margaret Cullen: And I'd never had visualizations before. This is Vipassana, or mindfulness meditation. It's about being present with what's here. 

Margaret Cullen: It's not really kind of aiming for mystical experiences, per se. So this was unusual. Every time I sat down to meditate, and this was 8 or 10 times a day for 10 days in silence, I would have visions of rabbis and they were angry.

Margaret Cullen: And they were, like, on either shoulder.

Margaret Cullen: And they were in traditional dress, with the curls and the shawls and everything.

Margaret Cullen: And it was just really odd. And from a mindfulness perspective, I would just notice them.

Margaret Cullen: I didn't engage with them. I would just notice them.

Margaret Cullen: And… That happened throughout the retreat, the 10-day retreat.

Margaret Cullen: And Vipassana, which is a particular kind of meditation practice; it means to see clearly.

Margaret Cullen: And it's sometimes translated as insight practice. It's the technology of Vipassana meditation is designed to help you have insights, both into your personal history, but also into the nature of reality. So at the end of this retreat, I had an insight. It was very powerful.

Margaret Cullen: And the insight was that the rabbis were angry because the chain, the rabbinical chain, had been broken with my generation.

Margaret Cullen: And the insight was that my mother's father was a rabbi.

Margaret Cullen: I was never told I was Jewish.

Margaret Cullen: I was raised a Protestant, and that he… his father was also a rabbi.

Margaret Cullen: So I went to see my mother who was living in San Francisco with her Presbyterian third husband.

Margaret Cullen: And I said, I pulled her aside, I said, Mom, I was on this retreat, I had an insight. We're actually Jewish, aren't we?

Margaret Cullen: And she said yes.

Margaret Cullen: So, now I'm 33 or so, and this is the first time anybody's told me this.

Margaret Cullen: I said, and your father was a rabbi?

Margaret Cullen: And she said yes.

Margaret Cullen: And I said, and his father was a rabbi.

Margaret Cullen: And she said yes.

Margaret Cullen: And she started crying in a way I'd never seen her cry before, and she said, yes, 50 generations of rabbis back to King David. I miss my people. 

Margaret Cullen: And please don't tell my husband we’re Jewish.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: So… A lot of things started making sense to me.

Margaret Cullen: I'm now 33, and oh, not only am I Jewish, But it's a pretty heavy-duty Jewish lineage that I come from, that my mother, you know, with the best intentions, kind of single-handedly put her thumbs in the dam, you know, and stopped that as best she could. Broke the chain.

Margaret Cullen: So, fast forward… I met my husband in my late 30s, he's Jewish.

Margaret Cullen: He was interested in my Jewish heritage.

Margaret Cullen: I had never met any of my extended family. That was part of how My mother kept this secret.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: And he said, let's go find them.

Margaret Cullen: So together, we went to New York.

Margaret Cullen: And I found a cousin who was a kind of family historian, a first cousin.

Margaret Cullen: And he brought out these two -- they're very heavy -- these two books.

Margaret Cullen: And I don't know if you can see them, but it says The Unbroken Chain.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Margaret Cullen: So, this is… It's all genealogy. It's Volume 1 and Volume 2 of my family.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wow.

Margaret Cullen: And it goes to me, I'm in the book, goes to my generation.

Margaret Cullen: And, it was a remarkable validation of a spiritual insight, because the language was exactly, you know, the chain has been broken, and then I'm presented five years later, with The Unbroken Chain, Volumes 1 and 2, which is… this is all… by the way, it's just genealogy, so this is several thousand pages. 

Margaret Cullen: It's… it's just…listings of names and families and… and all these rabbis, including in my family, the Baal Shem Tov, who was the founder, really, of mystical Judaism, who… 

Margaret Cullen: Yeah. And a number of, you know, very… mystical rabbis. And in fact, from my mother's, my mother's mother came from a dynasty, a Hasidic dynasty, that goes through the Baal Shem Tov.

Margaret Cullen: And my mother's father from an Orthodox dynasty, and it was the marriage -- an unusual marriage of an Orthodox and Hasidic dynasty in my mother's parents, and I was raised in the Congregational Church.

Margaret Cullen: So, so that's my… that's my… spiritual story.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, I want to know more, and if you don't feel comfortable saying more, but do you now that you know this, do you identify as following Judaism, or do you identify as following Buddhism, or do you identify… where is your… do you mind locating yourself?

Margaret Cullen: Not at all, no.

Margaret Cullen: I identify as a Jew, because technically I am a Jew, and, you know, if your mother's Jewish, you're Jewish, and not only was she Jewish, you know, I fully acknowledge and embrace and… am in… somewhat in awe of my lineage.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes.

Margaret Cullen: And I, have tried really hard, especially for my beloved husband, to practice Judaism, but it's never really taken for me.

Margaret Cullen: There are obstacles, and my heart is really in… on the Buddhist path, where I've never really encountered an obstacle. It just kind of keeps opening and opening and opening.

Margaret Cullen: And it is the widest, biggest path I've found, and I'm a very restless, skeptical, questioning person, and I need a very wide path.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: So, Buddhism has worked for me, and I do feel like I'm expressing my heritage, my spiritual heritage, through my Buddhist teaching and writing.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: Like a lot of other JewBus, let me just say.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I've never heard that term before, and I don't know if it's okay for me to say it, as it's not… it's not falling into that category.

Margaret Cullen: Yeah, I don't know if you're allowed to, but I think I am.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: You are allowed to, absolutely, with lineage like that, and I know your… obviously, your Buddhist credentials, you've got a lot of experience, and just the insight meditation and the insight that you had from doing so is amazing. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, and I have to ask, because you mentioned the mysticism aspect in your lineage, have you, where are you, or where do you locate yourself in relation to mysticism -- in Judaism or outside of Judaism?

Margaret Cullen: I think life would be… very limited and bland and… impoverished without mysticism for me, personally.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Margaret Cullen: I was thinking about your question about what is spirituality. And is it okay if we…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Absolutely, yes.

Margaret Cullen: ...if I link it there? I… I hadn't really… oddly, I'd never defined it for myself before. So thank you for the question.

Margaret Cullen: And I realized, for me it among other things, it involves mystery.

Margaret Cullen: And they have the same root, mysticism and mystery. They are really connected in my heart and mind.

Margaret Cullen: An openness to mystery, to things that, you know, it's totally illogical that these rabbis visited me while I sat in Northern California on a zafu in silence, you know.

Margaret Cullen: How did that happen?

Margaret Cullen: And I got this message, you know, that's, and quite honestly, along with my Buddhist practice, like… like a lot of other JewBus, you know, I did 20 years of work with a shaman, in a very kind of intentional… ritualistic way, working with psychedelic medicines, and so that was another connection to the mystery, and to mysticism, and to, kind of, what is beyond everyday consciousness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Before we started recording, as you know, I shared with you how part of my impetus is this desire to bring a sense of unity, and this desire to…. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Part of that is I feel like that we culturally and collectively, humanity is in need of spiritual awakening.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But what occurred to me is when you're sharing your story, and you're talking about doing mindfulness meditation and the insight that came from you, from your mindfulness meditation, is about your Jewish lineage and the accuracy of the insight. For me, that's just a testament to the unity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It's a testament to us awakening our hearts to openness to what is common amongst our paths, and our interconnection, and our interbeing, and our allowing these differences that we get so hung up on to fade into the background. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, I love your story, and I love that it has such a pivotal and powerful moment in it, that for me, I'm receiving that as a testament to unity, so…

Margaret Cullen: I agree with you completely, and as you know, I interviewed you for my book on equanimity. I interviewed faith leaders in many traditions, and I found exactly the same thing.

Margaret Cullen: So, my through line was equanimity, and sure enough, there it was in Islam and Christianity and Judaism, certainly in Buddhism, in Hinduism, in Taoism, Confucianism, Stoicism…

Margaret Cullen: You know, and these… you know, in Buddhism, equanimity is one of the four fundamental virtues, or immeasurables, and the other ones, I think, equally go across all traditions. Certainly, we were talking earlier, compassion, loving-kindness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Margaret Cullen: The generosity, the well-wishing for others, and equanimity.

Margaret Cullen: None of these are owned or proprietary, as far as I can tell.

Margaret Cullen: They're shared equally across all these great wisdom traditions.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: That reminds me…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm going to digress for a moment that… but one of the previous, conversation partners for the podcast is Yuval Ron, and I don't know if you have heard of him, but he talked about, in doing his work, which is… he's a composer.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But he talked about, in his episode, the effort it took for him to come up with music that represented equanimity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, when you get a chance, you'll have to, you'll have to check out....

Margaret Cullen: Oh, yes, please do send me his name. I would really absolutely love to hear… hear that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: All I have to do is check the transcript for that episode, because he mentions that album in his episode, but it's… but he takes… he has an album where he was asked to create music for loving-kindness, when it… to… for the 4 key, I'm forgetting the term…

Margaret Cullen: Brahmaviharas, or immeasurables, yes.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, the four immeasurables. So…

Margaret Cullen: What is his name?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yuval, Y-U-V-A-L Ron.

Margaret Cullen: Yes, right, I recognize that name. Okay, great, wonderful.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: It just occurred to me that, oh, he's made music, and he specifically talked in his episode. It's called The Four Divine States of Mind, is the name of the album.

Margaret Cullen: I love that. You know, I was talking… was it last night, or the night before?

Margaret Cullen: The night before last, with a friend who's a cellist in the San Francisco Symphony. And we were talking about equanimity in music, and she was talking about Bach, and how his music is full of equanimity, and I bring it up here because Bach was very religious actually…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Margaret Cullen: And religion infuses his music. And it was, in many ways, his faith, his capacity to take refuge in his faith, that granted him the kind of perspective and openness and depth that is representative of equanimity, that you hear in his music, the music of Bach.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wonderful, yeah. That brings a beautiful perspective to his music and his creative potential and abilities, so thank you for that. So, speaking of equanimity, would you like to share a passage from your book on equanimity?

Margaret Cullen: I would love to, thank you. 

Margaret Cullen: Yes, so…This is… it kind of ties in, I think, with my story, because it's…it's the opening of my book, it's the opening of the first chapter, and it's a story from another silent meditation retreat.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Wonderful. 

Margaret Cullen: And it is a different kind of revelation. In this case, it was a revelation about equanimity, you know, that, which is why it's the opening of my book on equanimity.

Margaret Cullen: So, I think I'll actually start, the epigram for this chapter is a quote from one of my Buddhist teachers, Matthew Brensilver. I love this quote; I think it captures something really important about equanimity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: And he wrote, “Equanimity deepens the poignancy of our lives, but drains our lives of melodrama.”

Margaret Cullen: And I love that quote because it challenges the idea that equanimity is aloof, that it's distant, when actually it deepens how moved we are.

Margaret Cullen: But it takes away all the… the reactivity. The static, in a way that gets in the way of clear seeing and skillful responding.

Margaret Cullen: Okay, so I… This is just… this isn't too long.

Margaret Cullen: Here we go.

We're in the third week of a silent meditation retreat in Yucca Valley, near Joshua Tree in the high desert of Southern California. The hard work of settling my tired, anxious, and distracted mind and body is behind me. And mindfulness has become effortless and self-sustaining. I'm walking in the early morning. It's springtime, and the desert is bursting with life. Sights, sounds, smells, and thoughts appear at each sense door with a vibrancy that borders on the psychedelic. Layers of grime, defenses, and preconceptions have been lifted, not only from my senses, but also from my guarded heart., leaving it vulnerable to the tender beauty of each cotton tail and cactus flower that sparkles with life in the arid desert landscape. The spring is so fleeting here, so unexpected, so beautiful. After spending a week practicing loving-kindness, Sharon Salzberg has taught us equanimity as a balancing practice. Equanimity is one of a set of wholesome and skillful states of mind that can be cultivated with the help of specific practices. One way of developing equanimity is by silently repeating phrases that serve as guideposts and incline the mind toward that skillful state. Here's the phrase we use to cultivate equanimity as we wish others well: Your happiness or unhappiness is more a function of your thoughts and actions than of my wishes for you. And yet, I will never cease to wish for your happiness.

I've been sitting with this phrase for several days, directing it toward loved ones, strangers, challenging people, and all beings. And so, it's begun to have a life of its own. As I walk in the desert, the phrase comes into my mind and is quickly followed by a deeply felt sense of my mother. In the next instant, an insider arises that uncorks a volcano of emotions so strong, I'm afraid it might blow me to smithereens. For the first time in my life, I experienced directly that not only am I not responsible for my mother's happiness, but also, what's even more amazing, I can let go of this futile enterprise without forsaking my love for her. I suddenly understand they're not mutually exclusive.  I had agreed, sometime deep in my childhood to an invisible contract with my mother that it was my job to save her from the profound depression and mental illness that had haunted her throughout her life. I had fully believed in the false dichotomy that to forsake this sacred duty was to stop loving her. A lifelong contract, signed in invisible blood, between a little girl, at an age so young I can't even remember and her parent, that committed the girl to be the one thing standing between her mother and the abyss of her depression and mental illness.

This little girl, a ray of sunshine, lifeline, and only hope, didn't even know there was a contract, until so many years later, out in the desert near Joshua Tree.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh my goodness, that makes me want to cry, and I'm warning you, I should have warned you before we started recording, I cry.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh my goodness. Oh… Isn't it amazing how the universe works?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I'm just going to… like, I don't know if you noticed, but my last name, Boerger, is a German-Jewish name. I don't know if you know this. So… I am not, in fact, Jewish, because my mother was not Jewish. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But… but my lineage of conservative Christians is descended from Johann, and I don't speak German, so I'm not going to try to say my last name as it's truly pronounced, but Johann Boerger, who was the son of a Jewish man, a German-Jewish man who came to the United States in the 1870s, so it's… I'm just… the fact that there is, even as vestige of Jewish lineage. And then when you're talking, when you're sharing this, so I feel this sense of connection there, and then I also feel this sense of connection when you talk about your mother.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I mean, my mother had an undiagnosed major depressive disorder, and, and after my brother's suicide, my mother became suicidal.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So I very much found myself in the role of feeling like, from the time of a very young age, feeling like it was my job to keep my mother back on this side of sane.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And yet, at some point, also beginning to struggle and learn what, like, what is psychological abuse, and what is emotional abuse, and what is, you know, what are the various types of abuse, and what's okay and what's not okay, and then in this constant, like, once I reached probably age 17 or 18, in this constant battle until the time of her death, around establishing boundaries, and what was abuse, and what is not abuse, and what's okay, and what's not okay, and how to be in a relationship.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So the… so I'm just saying the power of what you shared -- it… it hits… it hits my heart, you know, I just am floored by it, so thank you for sharing that passage.

Margaret Cullen: Well, Habib, I feel kind of goosebumps in our connections, because I knew that you too… I mean, I certainly knew that you had taken an unlikely path from conservative Christianity to mystical Islam, and I felt we were connected that way, but I… of course, I had no idea we were connected in so many other ways. 

Margaret Cullen: So that… that's lovely, and it touches me, and I… I…completely understand the challenge with boundaries, with parents with mental illness, and, you know, I lived that through much of my life with my mother, and, you know, a constant, you know, never a one-and-done learning with that, you know, just ongoing, ongoing challenge.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Right, yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so… and so heartbreaking, and so challenging to live with, and to grow with, and to, you know, continually reorient yourself to growth, rather than giving up or giving in.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So, will you share the that your happiness or unhappiness is more a function of your thoughts or actions...? Would you share that one more time?

Margaret Cullen: Yes.

Margaret Cullen: Yeah, so… This is slightly adjusted from the original language.

Margaret Cullen: You know, Buddhism… has…, not… you know, there are a number of, kind of, Western Buddhists who reject the idea of karma and the complexity of karma, but it certainly is in there in most Buddhist philosophy.

Margaret Cullen: So this is a slightly watered-down version of the actual phrases that we used back then. This is… this retreat… we're talking 40 years ago this happened, or so, so…

Margaret Cullen: Your happiness or unhappiness is more a function of your thoughts and actions than of my wishes for you. And yet, I will never cease to wish for your happiness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I love that, and I will… and yet, I will never cease to wish for your happiness.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So this is great for practicing equanimity in relation to someone else.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So my question is -- What if you're struggling? And I think that we talked about this when you were in the process of doing the interviews for your book, Quiet Strength, right? 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So we talked about the Sufi perspective around not making the difference between the Jamal and the Jalal. Those are the words that are often translated as the Majesty and the Beauty, or the Severity and the Gentleness, but those…opposing streams, and that part of Sufism, and how Sufis relate to the idea of peace is in allowing, as seeing both as the Divine's invitation to draw closer to the Divine. Right.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And so to stop making difference between them, and to care less about, oh, this is not what I want in my ego self, but more about opening to the invitation of drawing nearer to your Buddha nature, Source, in Sufism, Allah, you know, in accordance with your tradition, how you might, however you might language that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: So… I personally struggle with this, and I think every person does. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I feel that that struggle is life, is lifelong, that it's not something where I've just reached equanimity and I've got it for the rest of my life. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: But I especially struggle in terms of dealing with chronic pain, chronic health challenges that started when I was a teenager, just....

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I struggle in terms of being present with my symptomology and maintaining a sense of equanimity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And every time I think, oh, I've got it, every time my ego kicks in and says, oh, you are doing so great at not being in reaction, and not differentiating, just accepting the pain, accepting your inability to move in this moment, or whatever, as soon as, like, my ego comes in and I congratulate myself, Bam! There it goes.

Margaret Cullen: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah, so, do you have a similar affirmation, or phrase, or thought for practicing equanimity in relation to your own experience, whether that be your own inner turmoil, emotional turmoil, or mental turmoil, or physical turmoil, or all of the above?

Margaret Cullen: Wow, okay, well, yes, and again, of course, I completely relate to your question, and it's fun reflecting back on our conversation. It was quite a while ago now.

Margaret Cullen: And… I will say that there are different…aspects and dimensions of equanimity, and this aspect that you're referring to of seeing what we call in Buddhism, we would call the eight vicissitudes -- pleasure and pain, gain and loss, you know, these poles, these seeming dualities of pleasant and unpleasant.

Margaret Cullen: And being able to hold them both, you know, open to the paradox of both of them being a part of life is such a big part, as you said, of the spiritual path, and it's how equanimity is understood across all religions, as far as I can tell, is in relationship to these polar dimensions that we're constantly confronted with.

Margaret Cullen: I mean, what I like about the eight worldly winds is how much it normalizes the constant, constancy of change.

Margaret Cullen: That they're always blowing pleasant, unpleasant, pleasant, unpleasant.

Margaret Cullen: And that helps me, as you said, to take it less personally.

Margaret Cullen: And, you know, which is the first place that we get… That we lose equanimity is…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Margaret Cullen: But… Something that's helped me a great deal as I've marinated this idea of equanimity for...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Mmm.

Margaret Cullen: ...the last 3 or 4 years is that I think of it... It's more about recovery time than maintaining any particular state because that doesn't exist in nature anywhere else.

Margaret Cullen: And there's no such thing as a static balance. It's, like, stagnation. And, like, we don't want to aim for that. That's death.

Margaret Cullen: We want dynamic balance, and so dynamic equanimity is the recovery of balance. We're constantly losing balance all the time. Walking, we lose balance with every step and recover it.

Margaret Cullen: You know, it's… and then it's kind of how resilience and equanimity has to do with how quickly you can recover balance, and to me, that ability to laugh at the, the ubiquity and greediness of the ego, that really speeds up recovery time.

Margaret Cullen: That makes it happen so fast, when you can laugh at it and see, there it is.

Margaret Cullen: You actually, I want to read back a quote from you...

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay.

Margaret Cullen: ...that I put in my book.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Okay.

Margaret Cullen: I really, really love about this.

Margaret Cullen: And I pulled it up knowing I was going to talk to you. I love this quote, I've quoted you often, and you said, “One of the ways I think about the spiritual journey is a process of befriending the ego and the ego learning to trust, then changing your relationship to the ego from being your boss to being your personal assistant.”

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: So, it's not like it goes away.

Margaret Cullen: And we don't want it to go away, and there it is, you know, and it's relentlessly trying to identify and solidify itself around impermanence and constantly changing experience. 

Margaret Cullen: And so… To me, like a great equanimity practice is to laugh when you can.

Margaret Cullen: I actually have a chapter on humor as a doorway to equanimity, and I interviewed Swami Beyondananda for this chapter because he's the person who has really used humor as a doorway. 

Margaret Cullen: You know, in some ways, we're saying equanimity is… I don't want to be as grandiose to say that it's the same thing as enlightenment, but it's certainly a kind of spacious way of relating to experience that is not the same as when we're ego-contracted around our pain, our physical pain, our story, whatever it might be.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh, it's too funny that you brought my own… my… my own words back to the… in response to the question. I can't help to think of all the times where I am reminding that myself and others that I feel like that so much of the spiritual path is…it's bringing the light of the soul to… this is a different way of saying the same thing, but bringing the light of soul to the ego through the doorway of the heart, and allow it… bringing that…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because it's… if the ego can experience the light of the soul, then it can relax.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it can go, oh, there's beauty here, and love here, and light here. And it can relax into that.

Margaret Cullen: I love that! I love that.

Margaret Cullen: And, and…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And it's not always easy. And… and as you said… it's dynamic…. Did you use the term dynamic balance? Yes, and it's so interesting, because I feel like, oh I forget, more often when it comes in relation to my own, state that every emotional experience, and this is probably a bit different from a Buddhist perspective, or from a mindfulness perspective, that is more around allowing things to just be released, but from a, I often think of thoughts and emotions as constantly giving us invitations, and either inviting us toward our ego self, or inviting us toward our higher self, or… so, you know, it's either lower self or true self, or however you want to language that. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And sometimes in relation to my emotions, I can say, oh, well, the length of that react… emotional reaction is much…or the… the weight of that emotional reaction has reduced over time. Like, this is, like, I… I feel like, oh, I'm progressing, I'm making difference, I'm growing, I'm transforming, I'm healing, it has less, less weight, it hangs around less.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And whenever I'm talking about compassion, I often share with people who struggle with this, it's not that you will ever stop being an emotional human being.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Because part of human being… being human is having emotions, and those emotions serve very holy purposes. They are these beautiful invitations to go to our true self, if we choose to take them up on it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And having… I love that idea of the balance and the resiliency coming with the accepting and having some laughter and joy around that acceptance of how the negotiation and the process of befriending our egos is a ubiquitous one, that lasts as long as we have life and thought, that it's part of the human experience. 

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And in just embracing the bounce-back period, the rebalance period, so it's… I really appreciate… this is my long-winded way of saying I really appreciate that reminder of reframing our…

Dr. Habīb Boerger: I think… It's our ego that wants to attach to the idea of the state of equanimity when we face those things, as opposed to embracing the rebalance period, or the…

Margaret Cullen: Yes, so true, and it's so true. And, you know, I had to ask myself some challenging questions as I wrote the book. You know, like, if I'm having physical pain, like you talked about, and I hate the pain, can I be a equanimous with hating the pain?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm.

Margaret Cullen: Or do I have to… does… is equanimity more narrow than that? Can equanimity be big enough to hold that, that I hate this pain?

Margaret Cullen: And then what happens to hating the pain if I approach that as a manifestation, potential manifestation of equanimity, and not somehow the opposite of equanimity.

Margaret Cullen: It's a little bit of a… forgive my French, it's a little bit of a mind----. 

Margaret Cullen: But, I had to give a talk on equanimity.

Margaret Cullen: And I was… the moment was… I wrote about this in the book. 

Margaret Cullen: I was really brokenhearted. Stuff had happened. I had a broken heart.

Margaret Cullen: And I was giving a talk on equanimity. And I had to ask myself, can I be a equanimous with a broken heart?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Hmm…

Margaret Cullen: And, of course, the answer was yes, you know, yes.

Margaret Cullen: You know, equanimity is not a posture that looks a particular way, where, yeah, I'm chill with everything. Whatever, yeah, pain, pleasure, it's all good. 

Margaret Cullen: Yeah, man, you know, that, you know, equanimity is finding a way to hold this, you know, as… as you reminded me in Sufism, Even these great, you know, beauty and great awesomeness that can be fearsome and very, very challenging.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yeah.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: What do you think about a little mini practice, a little short practice? Would you be willing to lead us in a short practice on equanimity?

Margaret Cullen: Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to do that. I'd be happy to do that.

Margaret Cullen: So, yeah, so I'll just take under 5 minutes, yeah?

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Yes, if you don't… I'm not sure what time we started. I do a terrible job of keeping track of that, but I do think that we're getting close to an hour, so…

Margaret Cullen: Yeah. Okay. 

Margaret Cullen: Okay, so we'll do a very short equanimity practice, and I invite you to either close your eyes or just lower your gaze, kind of to signal internal movement, to withdraw your senses from the outer world, to move inside.

Margaret Cullen: And take a couple of deep breaths.

Margaret Cullen: Kind of soothe the nervous system.

Margaret Cullen: Gather yourself in the present moment.

Margaret Cullen: And then release the breath to its natural rhythm.

Margaret Cullen: And now, bring to mind a person that you love.

Margaret Cullen: A person who's easy to love.

Margaret Cullen: And whoever that is, a friend, a partner, a child, family member.

Margaret Cullen: Recognizing how, like every life, their lives have joys and sorrows, successes and failures, health and illness.

Margaret Cullen: And see if you can touch into the place in your heart that truly wishes them well, that wants the best for them.

Margaret Cullen: And bringing to mind a challenge they may be facing.

Margaret Cullen: In this short context now, probably not a major challenge.

Margaret Cullen: Whatever feels manageable to you. Difficulty at work… Difficulty in a relationship.

Margaret Cullen: And see if you can notice the place in your heart that really feels compassion and wants to help, maybe even wants to fix their situation.

Margaret Cullen: It's so natural, and such a beautiful quality of the heart.

Margaret Cullen: And reflecting for a moment, on how their happiness and unhappiness are more a function of their own thoughts, their own actions, their own circumstances than of your wishes for them.

Margaret Cullen: See if you can find the truth in that statement both for yourself, and for the people you love.

Margaret Cullen: And then, wishing them well while fully understanding the limits of your power to enforce their happiness, to fix what they're struggling with.

Margaret Cullen: Understanding that your happiness or unhappiness has more to do with your thoughts, your actions, your circumstances. I will never stop wishing you well.

Margaret Cullen: May you be happy.

Margaret Cullen: May you find peace.

Margaret Cullen: May you love and be loved.

Margaret Cullen: And whenever you're ready, you can open your eyes.

Margaret Cullen: And that will close our short practice.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Thank you.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Oh… I could… I could bask in that a little bit longer. Thank you for leading us in that practice, and for being flexible about doing it in a short one -- appreciate that.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Well, it's absolutely been a delight to reconnect with you.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I wish you the greatest success with Quiet Strength, your upcoming book.

Margaret Cullen: Thank you.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: And I really appreciate you coming on Beyond Names, and… and being a part of this impetus to share a message of love… of… of unity, and of wishing everyone well!

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Whatever their journey might be, however their journey might look, wherever they are in this moment. So, thank you so much for so readily embodying that, and being a part of it, and sharing in that, so…

Margaret Cullen: Thank you, Habib. It's really been a pleasure, to share and to reconnect with you. So, thank you again for the invitation.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Absolutely. And thank you to all listeners for joining us on Beyond Names. Before we go, if you would please take one breath to just pause and reflect for a moment on what stays with you from this conversation with Margaret.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May something you heard today help you reconnect with the light in your own heart. May you grow in compassion, clarity, and courage, and equanimity.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: May you find your way, again and again, back home to yourself, back home to the divine, however you name it.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: If today's conversation spoke to you, please like, share, comment on this episode, and please follow Beyond Names.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: To make an appointment with me, please visit https://www.habibboerger.com/. Until next time, may you be light, may you consciously participate in growing your light, and may you share your light.

Dr. Habīb Boerger: Peace be with you.